Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Antigen on April 04, 2003, 12:57:00 PM

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 04, 2003, 12:57:00 PM

I believe that human beings arrive on this Earth wanting to know absolutely everything, and the best thing we can do as parents is to get out of the way -- just be there to let them know what opportunities are there
-- Dorothy Werner, media liaison for the National Homeschool Association

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Majiktrvls on April 04, 2003, 03:51:00 PM

Ginger, in my opinion, folks would be much less confused when shit starts flying if they knew who was outraged. None of us have to give our real selves to the name. Noone in the real world calls me Majiktrvls. But, for the sake of identifying myself, that is who I am on here. Who cares what my real name is, and if they do, just ask. But, if we were all named Majiktrvls, who could tell the difference?

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: JDavid on April 04, 2003, 04:14:00 PM

All posts require one to swipe their national photo ID card which contains the readout of their dna sample, retina scan and fingerprinting. Posts can only be made at centralized facilities in each major city under heavy guard. All posts must be reviewed by the grand council in order to obtain authorization prior to being placed in the view of the public. Any post not authorized by the grand council counts as one strike against the attempted poster, with the fifth strike penalty being immediate execution. Just kidding.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 04, 2003, 04:42:00 PM

Thanks for your thoughts. Please, ya'll, keep `em coming.

J, I hear ya'. That's what I'm afraid some people might think. Not exactly believe as fact, mind you, but... just that ppl might be a little suspicious and not want to bother weighing the risks. Ya' know?

Now, just because I'm a geek and, therefore, somewhat compulsive about explaining things, here's what really happens. Every time anyone hits any page or image on a website, the sysadmin has access to their IP address. That's the number that identifies your machine or proxy or local network out of every other one on the net so that the server knows where to send the requested data. It's not like broadcast where no one can tell who's tuned into the signal. It's interactive; we're not all looking at the same thing at the same time so this is just how it has to work.

It doesn't matter one bit to me if anyone uses real or bogus info when they sign in. Frankly, half the profiles that I have out there describe a 98 year old male farmer from Alaska or some damned thing. It's not that I'm trying to pull anything on anyone. It's just that I feel that it's none of anyone's business who I am or what I do unless I decide to tell them.

HOWEVER, whether a poster to this forum is logged in or not, I do have enough info about them to make a fairly educated guess as to their identity. I rarely do that because I just don't want to be nosey. But it can be done. Further, any poster can include graphics that report the same data. That doesn't tell who's posting, but it does tell who's reading.

Finally, in the event that I ever have to deal with something like credible threats or fraud (knock wood, hasn't happened yet and hopefully never will) I could take that IP address, together with the time and date, and hand them over to either the user's ISP or to law enforcement in the jurisdiction of the their ISP. I would still probably never know the identity of the poster. But someone would. So anonymous posting is fair enough protection for any legal, legitimate need but it is in no way a secure means of covering serious criminal behavior.

But, considering the usual subject matters here, it's asking a LOT of someone to just trust me not to abuse what info I can get. So I'm disinclined to mess with it, unless there's an overwhelming demand for it.

I'll leave the poll open for at least a few days.

Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;

He who would search for perls must dive below.

Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: ehm on April 04, 2003, 06:20:00 PM

Nowhere on earth does everyone get along all the time. If people want to register anonymous, all they have to do is exactly that! But, when people first find this site, they are seemingly filled with paranoia and mistrust of everyone, I was. I was in shock. Of course, that is because of what Straight did. Do we want to have an option taken away from SIS forum, that is one of the ways to make people feel safer? What's the big deal? Change happens. Those of you seeking the nostalgia of the good ol' days should stop dreaming, and be happy that new people find this site all the time. Isn't that the point? I wasn't here then, but I am now, and I am greatful. I say forward! Not back. We aren't babies who need babysitters. If you can't stand what people say, speak out or, IGNORE IT! Didn't we all learn this little lesson in grade school? Changing that option will only make people more creative in their anonymous posting. Other than that it may be the same. I really don't think "anon control" is the solution. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming. At least we don't have anon parents arguing that Straight was a blessing, or idiots posting endless threads about people who like to eat poo. People are people, and not all people are nice. I like it here, and I get alot from this board, and the people here, even if there are disagreements.
Morli

[ This Message was edited by: Morli on 2003-04-05 00:56 ]

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: 00987123 on April 04, 2003, 06:39:00 PM

Hi.
Morli

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on April 04, 2003, 11:44:00 PM

I said it in another post, and I'll say it again.
Anonymous posting in this forum right now is like the highways being filled with "anonymous motorists" who do not register their vehicles, carry no insurance, and have no valid tag. Would you feel differently about being anonymous after a hit and run accident happened to you?
There are already uninsured motorists all over the road where I live and not much can be done. At least here we have the opportunity to take a stand and regain control of our forum.

_________________
In the line of fire, you know what to say
They gave us no choices, just one shade of grey
Back at that hellhole, behind Tyrone Mall
We walked in darkness, kept hitting the walls
I took the time to feel for the door
I had been treated, but what the hell for?

[ This Message was edited by: 85 Day Jerk on 2003-04-04 20:45 ]

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 05, 2003, 03:13:00 PM

My opinion is this: If people don't want to name themselves, what's the big deal? We are supposed to be a free society, with freedom of expression and speech. Quite personally, I don't understand the obsession with NEEDING to have someone identify themselves. I think that is controlling and selfish. If people want to post anonymously, why be a bunch of fascists and say people can't? Do you think that KNOWING who is attacking you somehow makes the attack more comfortable? Angry people and positive people post on these boards. If you censor one - you censor all. And then, instead of a board, we have a cult. If people want to post anonymously, that's their business. People should focus on what is said, and not who is saying it. And if you disagree or are angered by it - instead of letting them push your buttons, you can simply state why you disagree. But to chase away the people we don't know and like, because the things they say make us angry or sad, I mean - c'mon! We can't do that! Surely you know that you can't dismantle our liberties. And the comparison to cars doesn't work because we are't chunks of machinery, we are human beings, Americans, and you can't censor us or demand that we tell you who we are. Besides, what's the motive to do that anyway? To control what's said? To keep the "bad" posts from being read? Geez. Whose idea was this? Certainly not a freedom fighter, that's for sure. I think it's a fascist idea. That's my opinion. - Leigh Ann

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: JDavid on April 05, 2003, 03:56:00 PM

There are two different no choices in the poll, so you'd have to add both no totals together to get the real end result.

David

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 05, 2003, 05:47:00 PM

On 2003-04-05 12:56:00, JDavid wrote:
"There are two different no choices in the poll, so you'd have to add both no totals together to get the real end result.

David
"

Also see the Fornits' views and musings about polls. http://fornits.com/wwf/polls.php (http://fornits.com/wwf/polls.php)

Right now, it's a dead heat at exactly 45.45% for and against. But I'm not making any decision based just on the poll. It's really just intended to get some thoughtful conversation going.

Leigh, I get what you're saying. I'm not inclined to try and control anyone's behavior. Every time in my life I've made that mistake I've found myself negligent in controling my own not long after. I actually enjoyed being a nuke better than an oldcomer because I wasn't required to fuck with people so much.

Anyway, I get what you're saying to, Rob. But I'm not sure that doing this would actually solve the problem. Basically, all it does is cull the active users down to only those who are interested enough in posting here to go to the trouble of registering and remembering yet another username and password. And, as a casualty, we lose all those who may be suspicious of what I might do with the info and all those who have trouble figuring out how to register.

Look, here's a more anarchistic, libertarian minded solution. Whenever you have trouble figuring out who's insulting you or who said what, just quote part of the message you're responding to and ask the author to register. They can do it if they want to or not if they don't.

"The FARC is part of the history of Colombia and a historical phenomenon", (President Pastrana) says, "and they must be treated as Colombians". ... They come and ask for bread [aid from Washington], and you give them stones.

Robert White is a former American ambassador to Paraguay and El Salvador, and former No. 2 man with the U.S. Embassy in Bogota, is president of the Centre for International Policy in Washington D.C.
Robert White

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Majiktrvls on April 05, 2003, 07:30:00 PM

Somehow my point in asking for less "anonymous" postings was missed. We had folks slinging mud at the wrong "anonymous" left and right. I was looking for a solution, not more problems. Nor was it meant to attempt to take away personal liberties, just simply to find a way to clarify which anonymous was enraged at any given time.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Froderik on April 05, 2003, 10:20:00 PM

But...I wonder how could you really track someone if they use a dial-up connection? Every time I dial in, my ip address is different. Similar #'s at the beginning, but different "host" numbers. Email me or send a private message if you don't care to discuss this beneath prying eyes.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 05, 2003, 10:36:00 PM

Its that little eye in the corner of fornits pages, yep, it sees you Alex. :rofl: Look to your left, psssssssssssst...

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Shelby on April 05, 2003, 11:00:00 PM

If anon posting is banned, that ban should apply to the system administrators as well.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: FaceKhan on April 06, 2003, 03:18:00 AM

How about making it so that people have to pick a name when posting (ones that are already registered by other people will not be available) but not require them to register. That makes it so people can post "anonymously" (as if there is any such thing) without the confusion of wondering which of the many people who choose to post anonymously is speaking. Of course malicious anonymous users will be able to steal other people's anonymous names but that problem will be less than what we have now.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 06, 2003, 11:39:00 AM

But anonymous users aren't all abusive or malicious.
Anonymous keeps me protected from the fear of being attacked. If it is taken away, I'll be to afraid to post. I need to be anonymous, it's my protection. Please don't take it away. When a registered user is attacted, it's personal, and that person is exposed to everyone. It hurts them alot more than if they had posted anonymously. With anonymous it remains only an opinion. Not personal.
I vote FOR anonymous.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 06, 2003, 11:45:00 AM

On 2003-04-05 23:18:00, FaceKhan wrote:
" Of course malicious anonymous users will be able to steal other people's anonymous names but that problem will be less than what we have now."

That would make things much worse.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 06, 2003, 11:50:00 AM

On 2003-04-05 16:30:00, Majiktrvls wrote:
"Somehow my point in asking for less "anonymous" postings was missed. We had folks slinging mud at the wrong "anonymous" left and right. I was looking for a solution, not more problems. Nor was it meant to attempt to take away personal liberties, just simply to find a way to clarify which anonymous was enraged at any given time. "

If they wanted you to know, they would have registered.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 06, 2003, 12:05:00 PM

Alex, np, this is public info and I think it can only help if more people understand how this all works.

If someone is using a local dialup and not going through a proxy, I could make an educated guess as to where they're located geographically. If they post anon and then under a username on the same connection (w/o proxy) then it's kind of a dead givaway. It has to be either the same person or two people using the same machine.

I do not divulge this info, even if I give in to temptation and peek at it! As a matter of fact, once I think I've figured out who an anon is, I generally will drop out of posting to the thread because my views would be skewed by knowing something (or assuming something) that other people don't.

The only circumstances under which I could find out for sure the identity of any poster, and this is theorhetical because I've never had to do it, is if the posts were actually illegal, like credible death threats or other kinds of harassment and the offended party insisted on taking it up with the user's ISP or with the law.

One time, I've provided the IP address, ISP contact info and timestamp to an offended user. I don't believe that user ever took it any further than to let the asshole know that they'd crossed the line of legal and legitimate use of anonymous posting.

Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: kpickle39 on April 06, 2003, 12:18:00 PM

I posted anon the other day as kind of a joke. I posted about being "thirsty" and used anon, 'cause every one seemed to be posting about it. I like that folks can post anon. I did my first couple of posts when I found this site cause the darn thing freaked me out so much.

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 06, 2003, 12:45:00 PM

Thanks to everyone for all of your thoughts and insights on this topic. But I don't think there's an argument compelling enough to overcome this one:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=1&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=1849&forum=1&Sort=D)

So... can we all just get along?

"Never attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by ignorance." -- Anonymous

Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.

--Bob Marley

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: ehm on April 06, 2003, 01:03:00 PM

Amen! :nworthy:

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: ClayL on April 07, 2003, 10:06:00 AM

You get the IP Addresses contact the ISP with the addresses and the times. The ISP checks their logs and POOF! You now need another ISP because you old one cancelled your account. The ISP's will easily cooperate in this as it reduces their liability. Considering most of this is interstate the investigating athority in the FBI. I track a child pornographer once this way and he in now enjoying life in club fed.

CL

[ This Message was edited by: ClayL on 2003-04-07 07:13 ]

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Antigen on April 07, 2003, 12:19:00 PM

Yeah, exactly. Easy as pi. However, my stock solution to almost anything is return (undef) if /coercion/i; Unless that gets me into a time munching endless loop or it's one of those rare cases when there's just no other peaceful means of redress, I stick with that.

So far, in something like 4 years of hosting and admining web forums, I haven't had to resort to this kind of coercion. We did conjure up some logic to try and prevent certain types of DOS attacks. That's about it.

The people's right to change what does not work is one of the greatest
principles in our system of government

--Richard M. Nixon

Title: Anon posting Poll Question
Post by: Anonymous on April 07, 2003, 01:20:00 PM

On 2003-04-05 19:20:00, AlexL wrote:

"But...I wonder how could you really track someone if they use a dial-up connection?

You could track them as clay has mentioned, you could also "Hack :eek: " them in real time. There is the ability for anyone to obtain the IP address for those who read here. I will never tell how, but I will say it has nothing to do with the internal workings of the BBS itself.

On 2003-04-05 23:18:00, FaceKhan wrote:

"How about making it so that people have to pick a name when posting (ones that are already registered by other people will not be available) but not require them to register.

The problem with this is we would be unable to enforce what name an anonymous can pick, So you could easily use any anonymous name you wanted in order to "Cause Trouble"

Also, I would like to make one other point. There is a lot of venom that has been spread upon this board in the past several months, and it is not all coming from or started by anonymous posters. And while I am sure that some of the things said here would never be said in a face to face conversation, forums provide a way for people to be hostile and or abusive to one another without repercussion, regardless of the login status.

And this brings me to the point that, it would seem that people are more engrossed in making sure who they are yelling at, in some of the most destructive conversations. This board was never created with the intention of it being a verbal boxing arena. Sure there are going to be disagreements, but hey, the personal attacks are just way too much.

When we setup this board, it was to provide a community for those who were loosing such on another hosting provider. We did not want to see the old posts lost ( I spent several hours writing script to mirror the old site, including login names that could be "re-claimed"), and the forum recreated on yet another Endless pop up Ad's, overly Java scrip enhanced, crash you browser every other click when you use it forum. I would hate to see our effort destroyed over such heated and petty arguments that serve no real purpose other then to slander one another like we were all in group. Opposing points of view while we may disagree, are an important piece of life, which we all need in order to broaden our horizons and possibly see things from angles we may not have though of before.

One other point. We here at Fornits are not supporting or advocating one group or another within these confines, rather we are merely providing an area where we can all talk, share our experiences, and our thoughts. It is not the intention of this BBS to further the goals of any single individual, group, or organization.

Should anonymous posting be banned in the SIS forum
	Yes, it'll cut down on hostile arguments.
	No, we'll lose valuable input from people who are not comfortable registering right now
	No, the admins are not your goddamned oldcomers!
	Not sure/Don't care