Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 22, 2009, 07:41:32 PM
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Aspen Education Group does not provide a therapeutic milieu that is conformative to standards set by any medical body for their "patients," medically recognized therapy, or medically accredited personnel, Aspen's own lawyers successfully argued in Pence v. Aspen Education Group.
http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv ... 80-DOR.pdf (http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv-06199-80-DOR.pdf)
Aspen education group turned the details of one of the confessions it mandates from its "patients" over to the police.
The "patient" had confessed he had peeped into the girls dorm, after climbing onto a roof.
The "patient's" parents sued over Aspens failure to provide a clinically valid therapeutic milieu, for failing to conform to clinical, medical standards, for violating the confidentiality of the patient/ therapist relationship, and for subjecting their "patient" to "therapy" from a group of people who were not licensed therapists or medical personnel.
Aspen Education Group's defense was that, yes, they failed to provide therapy that conforms to standards of medicine, but that was OK because they ONLY agreed to provide...
"group and individual counseling as dictated by
PROGRAM design......NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs
complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a
LICENSED counselor,2"
Aspen education Group argued that confessions the "patient" was expected to make was NOT part of a therapeutic treatment program, and that NorthStar was NOT a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program.
Aspen Education Group argued largely SUCCESSFULLY that because their "patient's" therapist was unlicensed and semi-successfully that because their employees were not actual medical personnel, HiPPA statues did not apply to them.
"Because she is not a licensed counselor and there is no evidence she is an employee of a licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees."
"There is insufficient evidence to conclude that there are no disputed issues of fact as to whether information conveyed by Harless to police was protected health information within the meaning of HIPAA, and whether NorthStar is a covered entity within the meaning of HIPAA."
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Ouch. Fucking ouch. Wow, this is a damning indictment of Apen Education Group. Their entire defense is based upon not providing the services they advertise as delivering.
Whooter (the new version of TheWho) is now, officially, 100% discredited by his own people. Don't feel bad though, Whoooter, everyone who works for Aspen gets a black eye, too.
And you parents out there now have exactly what reason to justify engaging Aspen Education? Please, explain again to me how your child really needs this pseudo-not-quite-never-claimed-to-be-real "treatment" at Aspen. I'm all ears.
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biz-umpety!
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Aspen Education Group has participated in multiple independent research studies to ensure that we provide the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults, we feel it is our responsibility to measure the effectiveness of our methods and the sustainability of our results.
Aspen Education Group’s Outdoor Behavior Healthcare (OBH) programs, also referred to as wilderness therapy, participated in two long-term, independent research studies, most recently from March 2006 through October 2008. One hundred-ninety adolescents, ages 14-17, enrolled in three different wilderness therapy programs were assessed at admission; one week after they started treatment; graduation from the wilderness therapy program; three months after graduation; and 12 months after graduation. Adolescent participants in wilderness therapy programs experienced reported struggling with issues such as substance use, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations, ADHD and academic performance....
More results to come!!
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Lols. The only problem with the 'study' is that they were illegally using unlicesned 'therapists' for their 'treatment.' Tell me, how does AEG assess effectiveness of treatment when they already admitted in a lawsuit that THEY PROVIDE NO TREATMENT? Interesting logical pretzel Whooter has tied himself into.
Attention: AEG admits after almost 20 years of operation that they provide NO THERAPY and NO TREATMENT services.
I wonder what all the parents are paying for? Food, lodging and humiliation only??
You people are SUCKERS and got RIPPED OFF by AEG. Tough pill to swallow, but AEG admitted in open court during a lawsuit trial that they in fact do not use licesned therapists and provide no treatment of any kind.
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Well they seem to be doing pretty good based on independent studies of a few of their programs:
Here take a look:
After attending an Aspen Outdoor Behavioral Health program:
Mental health issues including stress, depression and anxiety are significantly improved. OBH treatment helped reduce stress, depression and anxiety in teens, especially in those with more extreme levels, with continued reduction shown at the six-month follow-up assessment.
Substance abuse and dependence is significantly reduced, with results lasting through the 12-month follow-up. Students experienced substance-related pathology within the clinically significant and elevated range pretreatment, but symptoms fell within a normal range upon graduation. Most importantly, these results were sustained through the three and 12 month follow-up assessments.
Social conflict and aggressive behaviors decrease. Reduction of these self-defeating behaviors continues post-graduation, with greatest improvement shown at the 12-month follow-up assessment.
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Quoting a debunked pseudo-study does not make your case.
Anyway, if we assume the study is valid (which it clearly is not) we'd have to attribute any changes in subjects to influences other than AEG, because AEG admits they offer no treatment whatsoever. Again, how can one assess the effects of non-treatment?
Explain that first before you try to convince us of anything else.
Mods: Whooter is flooding with repetitive posts again. If he keeps posting the same post over and again, he should rightfully be banned.
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Aspen Education Group has participated in multiple independent research studies to ensure that we provide the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults, we feel it is our responsibility to measure the effectiveness of our methods and the sustainability of our results.
Aspen Education Group’s Outdoor Behavior Healthcare (OBH) programs, also referred to as wilderness therapy, participated in two long-term, independent research studies, most recently from March 2006 through October 2008. One hundred-ninety adolescents, ages 14-17, enrolled in three different wilderness therapy programs were assessed at admission; one week after they started treatment; graduation from the wilderness therapy program; three months after graduation; and 12 months after graduation. Adolescent participants in wilderness therapy programs experienced reported struggling with issues such as substance use, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations, ADHD and academic performance....
More results to come!!
I for one would like to see more detail. Did they release any graphs or tables?
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Lols. The only problem with the 'study' is that they were illegally using unlicesned 'therapists' for their 'treatment.' Tell me, how does AEG assess effectiveness of treatment when they already admitted in a lawsuit that THEY PROVIDE NO TREATMENT? Interesting logical pretzel Whooter has tied himself into.
Attention: AEG admits after almost 20 years of operation that they provide NO THERAPY and NO TREATMENT services.
I wonder what all the parents are paying for? Food, lodging and humiliation only??
You people are SUCKERS and got RIPPED OFF by AEG. Tough pill to swallow, but AEG admitted in open court during a lawsuit trial that they in fact do not use licesned therapists and provide no treatment of any kind.
Wouldn't this call the integrity of Ellen Behren's "study" into serious question? If this had been an actual bona fide peer-reviewed scientific study, those results would now have to be thrown out, and the study repeated.
Perhaps the re-do could be done by unbiased professional who doesn't have such a conflict of interest, and could include a little more stringent criteria!
As it stands right now, Behren's "study" is little more than a collection of anecdotal impressions and self reportage by adolescents or young adults barely out of their teens, who have little/no life experience at living independently and how to put their program experience in perspective with that, which is collected and interpreted by an industry insider with a vested interest in the outcome.
Geeezzz Louise! :wall:
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Aspen Education Group has participated in multiple independent research studies to ensure that we provide the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults, we feel it is our responsibility to measure the effectiveness of our methods and the sustainability of our results.
Aspen Education Group’s Outdoor Behavior Healthcare (OBH) programs, also referred to as wilderness therapy, participated in two long-term, independent research studies, most recently from March 2006 through October 2008. One hundred-ninety adolescents, ages 14-17, enrolled in three different wilderness therapy programs were assessed at admission; one week after they started treatment; graduation from the wilderness therapy program; three months after graduation; and 12 months after graduation. Adolescent participants in wilderness therapy programs experienced reported struggling with issues such as substance use, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations, ADHD and academic performance....
More results to come!!
I for one would like to see more detail. Did they release any graphs or tables?
Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
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Aspen Education Group the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults,[/quote]
Why use terms like "clinical" and "therapeutic practices" if they are not a mental health program? Isn't this deceptive marketing, if not flat-out misrepresentation of what Aspen is? Licensed staff would be necessary to implement "the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models".
This is getting down to it. Now that Aspen has copped to not providing mental health programs they need to be held to that description.
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Well they seem to be doing pretty good based on independent studies of a few of their programs:
Here take a look:
After attending an Aspen Outdoor Behavioral Health program:
Mental health issues including stress, depression and anxiety are significantly improved. OBH treatment helped reduce stress, depression and anxiety in teens, especially in those with more extreme levels, with continued reduction shown at the six-month follow-up assessment.
Substance abuse and dependence is significantly reduced, with results lasting through the 12-month follow-up. Students experienced substance-related pathology within the clinically significant and elevated range pretreatment, but symptoms fell within a normal range upon graduation. Most importantly, these results were sustained through the three and 12 month follow-up assessments.
Social conflict and aggressive behaviors decrease. Reduction of these self-defeating behaviors continues post-graduation, with greatest improvement shown at the 12-month follow-up assessment.
So. They are practicing psychology/behavior modification without licensed staff? Your defenses of Aspen have become slipshod and reveal even more damning facts. Spin faster, the hole is getting deeper.
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Aspen Education Group the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults,
Why use terms like "clinical" and "therapeutic practices" if they are not a mental health program? Isn't this deceptive marketing, if not flat-out misrepresentation of what Aspen is? Licensed staff would be necessary to implement "the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models".
This is getting down to it. Now that Aspen has copped to not providing mental health programs they need to be held to that description.
No, you need to understand the terms a little more. You dont have to be a mental health program to use terms like "clinical" or "Therapeutic practices". You could give the kid a massage once a week or a hot mineral bath and market yourself as therapeutic. As far as Clinical --- all you need to do is watch the kid 24/7.
Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
The methods depend on the model that you use. If you can impliment the model successfully without licensed staff then its fine. But presently, as a minimum, the kids see a licesnsed therapist about once a week and report back to the child therapist at home or the parents.
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Aspen Education Group the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults,
Why use terms like "clinical" and "therapeutic practices" if they are not a mental health program? Isn't this deceptive marketing, if not flat-out misrepresentation of what Aspen is? Licensed staff would be necessary to implement "the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models".
This is getting down to it. Now that Aspen has copped to not providing mental health programs they need to be held to that description.
No, you need to understand the terms a little more. You dont have to be a mental health program to use terms like "clinical" or "Therapeutic practices". You could give the kid a massage once a week or a hot mineral bath and market yourself as therapeutic. As far as Clinical --- all you need to do is watch the kid 24/7.
Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
The methods depend on the model that you use. If you can impliment the model successfully without licensed staff then its fine. But presently, as a minimum, the kids see a licesnsed therapist about once a week and report back to the child therapist at home or the parents.
That's not what parents are expecting or led to believe. In the Pence case, it's stated the boy was suffering from depression. He needed more than mineral baths and an unlicensed counselor.
Come on. You are desperately trying to cover up the fact that kids will get no valid treatment at Aspen. Valid treatment. Aspen has stated they do not provide legitimate mental health care and they need to state that clearly and not hide behind vague legalese definitions. "clinical" should indicate there is a licensed clinician overseeing "therapy".
Break it down to simple fact: Aspen is not the place to send a child with behavioral or mental health issues. They have no legitimate clinical treatment available. AEG has admitted it. The "clinical" and "therapeutic" claims of Aspen are clearly revealed to be snake oil, smoke and mirrors, and deceptive marketing. Transparency is also not one of Aspen's strong points.
That is a fact.
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Aspen Education Group has participated in multiple independent research studies to ensure that we provide the most cutting-edge, evidence-based therapeutic practices and clinical models within each of our programs. As the leading provider of therapeutic education programs for youth and young adults, we feel it is our responsibility to measure the effectiveness of our methods and the sustainability of our results.
Aspen Education Group’s Outdoor Behavior Healthcare (OBH) programs, also referred to as wilderness therapy, participated in two long-term, independent research studies, most recently from March 2006 through October 2008. One hundred-ninety adolescents, ages 14-17, enrolled in three different wilderness therapy programs were assessed at admission; one week after they started treatment; graduation from the wilderness therapy program; three months after graduation; and 12 months after graduation. Adolescent participants in wilderness therapy programs experienced reported struggling with issues such as substance use, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations, ADHD and academic performance....
More results to come!!
I for one would like to see more detail. Did they release any graphs or tables?
Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
I was curious on the results that the boys stress level increased post program but the girls did not as much. Do you think this is related to integrating back into the home at all? They commented on this themselves, but no cause was attributed.
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
Patient -- the recipient of any of various personal services.
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I would ask why you two are going on analyzing the “study”/self-serving propaganda of a program’s treatment when that same program undermined the validity of this “study” by stating in court that they do not provide any treatment…but then I realized you’re just that one pathetic program troll –talking to yourself. This really must be a tough time for you troll.
Idea! Let’s send a copy of Aspen’s statements (in court documents) to Consumer affairs etc. and then we can send Aspen’s “study” and other related misrepresentations to the original presiding judge!
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
Patient -- the recipient of any of various personal services.
?????????????????????????
Too lame. LOL. At least list a source.
patient
Adjective
1. enduring difficult situations with an even temper
2. persevering or diligent: his years of patient work may finally pay off
Noun
a person who is receiving medical care
patiently adv
Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
patient
1. One who receives medical attention, care, or treatment.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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I would ask why you two are going on analyzing the “study”/self-serving propaganda of a program’s treatment when that same program undermined the validity of this “study” by stating in court that they do not provide any treatment…but then I realized you’re just that one pathetic program troll –talking to yourself. This really must be a tough time for you troll.
Idea! Let’s send a copy of Aspen’s statements (in court documents) to Consumer affairs etc. and then we can send Aspen’s “study” and other related misrepresentations to the original presiding judge!
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I would ask why you two are going on analyzing the “study”/self-serving propaganda of a program’s treatment when that same program undermined the validity of this “study” by stating in court that they do not provide any treatment…but then I realized you’re just that one pathetic program troll –talking to yourself. This really must be a tough time for you troll.
Idea! Let’s send a copy of Aspen’s statements (in court documents) to Consumer affairs etc. and then we can send Aspen’s “study” and other related misrepresentations to the original presiding judge!
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
Patient -- the recipient of any of various personal services.
?????????????????????????
Too lame. LOL. At least list a source.
patient
Adjective
1. enduring difficult situations with an even temper
2. persevering or diligent: his years of patient work may finally pay off
Noun
a person who is receiving medical care
patiently adv
Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
patient
1. One who receives medical attention, care, or treatment.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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I would ask why you two are going on analyzing the “study”/self-serving propaganda of a program’s treatment when that same program undermined the validity of this “study” by stating in court that they do not provide any treatment…but then I realized you’re just that one pathetic program troll –talking to yourself. This really must be a tough time for you troll.
Idea! Let’s send a copy of Aspen’s statements (in court documents) to Consumer affairs etc. and then we can send Aspen’s “study” and other related misrepresentations to the original presiding judge!
What I typically do is send the letter (with hard copied documents) and then follow up with an email with the attachements so that they have it from both sources.
Consumer affairs and to the judges office (find out who he works with also so the letter and documents can be shared).
Then wait a few months.
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More results to come!!
I for one would like to see more detail. Did they release any graphs or tables?
Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
I was curious on the results that the boys stress level increased post program but the girls did not as much. Do you think this is related to integrating back into the home at all? They commented on this themselves, but no cause was attributed.
My guess would be that boys are not as social as girls so they dont handle the transition back into the family and meeting new friends as easily as girls do, so it is a more stressful for them. I found that interesting too.
The other interesting thing was, did you notice that the girls performed better in most areas until they hit post program and then the boys performed better. So the program seems to be more effective longer for boys than girls. Did you notice this also?
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No, you need to understand the terms a little more. You dont have to be a mental health program to use terms like "clinical" or "Therapeutic practices". You could give the kid a massage once a week or a hot mineral bath and market yourself as therapeutic. As far as Clinical --- all you need to do is watch the kid 24/7.
Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
You just made that up, didn't you? Clinical indicates clinic and clinicians, and Aspen does not have either. Clear cut case of deceiving folks. I hope Greg Kutz and the GAO clock all this. Better send it to them to be sure.
Clinical:
regarding the diagnosis and/or treatment of patients within established health care guidelines.
(anxiety-panic.com/dictionary/en-dictc.htm)
#1 relating to a clinic or conducted in or as if in a clinic and depending on direct observation of patients; "clinical observation"; "clinical case ...
#2 scientifically detached; unemotional; "he spoke in the clipped clinical monotones typical of police testimony"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Adjective
1. of or relating to the observation and treatment of patients directly: clinical trials of a new drug (keyword: treatment, which Aspen does not provide)
2. of or relating to a clinic
3. logical and unemotional: they have a somewhat clinical attitude to their children's upbringing (This is a description of John D. Reuben)
4. (of a room or buildings) plain, simple, and usually unattractive
clinically adv
Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
Aspen is screwed.
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Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
I was curious on the results that the boys stress level increased post program but the girls did not as much. Do you think this is related to integrating back into the home at all? They commented on this themselves, but no cause was attributed.
My guess would be that boys are not as social as girls so they dont handle the transition back into the family and meeting new friends as easily as girls do, so it is a more stressful for them. I found that interesting too.
The other interesting thing was, did you notice that the girls performed better in most areas until they hit post program and then the boys performed better. So the program seems to be more effective longer for boys than girls. Did you notice this also?
No, I didnt. My take on it is that there are more boys in programs and therefore their data would be more accurate. If there would be the same number of boys and girls then we may see them paralleled a little better.
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Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
I was curious on the results that the boys stress level increased post program but the girls did not as much. Do you think this is related to integrating back into the home at all? They commented on this themselves, but no cause was attributed.
My guess would be that boys are not as social as girls so they dont handle the transition back into the family and meeting new friends as easily as girls do, so it is a more stressful for them. I found that interesting too.
The other interesting thing was, did you notice that the girls performed better in most areas until they hit post program and then the boys performed better. So the program seems to be more effective longer for boys than girls. Did you notice this also?
No, I didnt. My take on it is that there are more boys in programs and therefore their data would be more accurate. If there would be the same number of boys and girls then we may see them paralleled a little better.
Why don't you and yourself carry your monologue to the PM's? The topic is Aspen's failure to provide treatment, despite peppering their advertising (and your relentless, obtuse trolling) with "clinical" and "therapeutic" and claims of treating mental disorders they are not staffed for.
If Aspen claims they can treat a child with mental health issues, they're practicing without a license.
What do you call an adult entering a residential treatment program? Patient. You expect psychiatrists and mental health professionals to treat them.
What do you call a teen entering a residential treatment program? Student. Uh...the logic escapes me.
Troll on, John.
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Here is a link to one of the sites which has results in Graph form (bottom of page):
Link to Study Results (http://http://www.suwscarolinas.com/outcome.html)
Hope this helps.
I was curious on the results that the boys stress level increased post program but the girls did not as much. Do you think this is related to integrating back into the home at all? They commented on this themselves, but no cause was attributed.
My guess would be that boys are not as social as girls so they dont handle the transition back into the family and meeting new friends as easily as girls do, so it is a more stressful for them. I found that interesting too.
The other interesting thing was, did you notice that the girls performed better in most areas until they hit post program and then the boys performed better. So the program seems to be more effective longer for boys than girls. Did you notice this also?
No, I didnt. My take on it is that there are more boys in programs and therefore their data would be more accurate. If there would be the same number of boys and girls then we may see them paralleled a little better.
I dont think they provided the break out of boys and girls. I assumed they were equal. But now that you bring it up, we dont know do we. That might account for the differences. Let me look at it again.
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I came across this on their web site:
"As a medical professional, I've seen lots of programs for teens, and I've heard lots of promises. SUWS is the only one I know of that truly makes a positive difference. I use SUWS not only as an intervention step, but I rely upon their staff for the insight to help me understand how best to help families make the healthiest choices for the long run."
-Adolescent Psychologist
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
Sorry, Whooter. No way around AEG's confession that they provide no treatment or therapy. We don't need you to speak for them anymore. They've finally spoken and admitted that they and you have been lying for years. You're dismissed.
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Clinical -- Involving or based on direct observation of the patient
Wait - you mean "student", don't you? You need to read what Aspen's lawyers said again. No kid in an Aspen program can be called a "patient", now can they? So your definition of clinical was taken from a source describing legitimate health care, not a school like Aspen.
Sorry, Whooter. No way around AEG's confession that they provide no treatment or therapy. We don't need you to speak for them anymore. They've finally spoken and admitted that they and you have been lying for years. You're dismissed.
Awww, a little upset that their outcome study didnt line up with your expectations? Maybe you can write to Aspen and ask them to put a disclaimer that they dont provide treatment or therapy. Would this make you feel better (I never guest post RB)? Ha,Ha,Ha
Let me know how that works out for ya.
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Patient -- the recipient of any of various personal services.
I posted this in the other thread but felt it appropriate to repeat in light of the absurdity of the above:
LOL. They are what they want to be when they want to be. They want the marketing benefits of appearing legit with none of the accountability. Same deal with benchmark choosing to call itself either a school or a program depending on which licensing agency they're talking to.
Program -> dept of education "we're not really a school. we teach 'life skills' to troubled teens. we're a program."
Program -> program licensing "we're not a program. We're a school and are thus aren't required to be licensed. We teach kids valuable life skills."
Patients are "recipients of any various personal services"?!?!? WTF? What dictionary did you pull that out of? My dictionary says "a person receiving or registered to receive medical treatment"
You can't just redefine words to mean what you want them to. If you advertise X you deliver X or it's fraudulent misrepresentation / false advertising. You can't just say "at our business, X is another word for Y". It's bullshit.
Even in the rare instances where Aspen avoids advertising blatantly to provide medical services it is VERY clear to a parent or just about anybody that it is what they are offering (a program providing treatment for psychological(medical) conditions). It's in their advertising. Look at what they advertise to and the keywords in their advertising. They advertise to help kids with medical conditions.
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Not just medical conditions, but pretty much all medical conditions. When they talk to parents they are so certain they can cure whatever the problems of the child are, despite having never met the child or conducted any testing or evaluation of the child in person to know what the problems of the child actually are, that should be a crime. And that is where criminal charges should be filed. When Aspen or any other program tells parents over the phone or internet that they have the cure for actual medical conditions, such as something as common as depression, despite not actually providing treatment, that should be a crime on top of false advertising.
But I agree with an earlier poster that this thread and the information about Aspen's legal position, should be top of the list for this site. Everyone who logs in should see it at the top.
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Some more flaws with that study. Many teens who had left the program would have a vested interest in lying about their progress so as not to be sent back. Additionally, they would also want to avoid telling their parents they had wasted their money and that they were the same or worse than before.
Also, how did the study determine the stress and anxiety levels of those in the study? Did they just ask them? "So, how stressed are you feeling right now on a scale of one to one hundred about being sent to the middle of nowhere, against your will to a strange place you know nothing about surrounded by people you have never met and are about to be forced to live in a cramped dormitory with?" Umm...90?
One year later... "How stressed do you feel now, compared to when you first arrived now that you know where you are, who everyone here is, and have had a chance to settle in?" Umm... zero? "Let's go with fifty, since we want the graph to look like it drops evenly since nobody would believe we cured you so quickly and besides, as soon as we say you are cured, though we don't claim to be actually treating you, your parents will pull you and stop paying us, so how does fifty sound?" Umm... yes, a fifty sounds much better.
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MATTHEW E. PENCE, et al., Civ. No. 05-6199-HO
Plaintiffs, ORDER
v.
ASPEN EDUCATION GROUP., INC.,
Defendants.
Summary judgment is appropriate if there are no disputed
issues of material fact and the moving party is entitled to
judgment as a matter of law. Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(c).
Oregon's confidentiality statutes provide only that a
confidential relationship is not breached if a disclosure is
permitted by state or federal law. Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.523;
Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.520. Because she is not a licensed
counselor and there is no evidence she is an employee of a
licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality
laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees. Or.
Rev. Stat. § 675.765.
Based on the foregoing, plaintiffs' motion for partial
summary judgment [#38] is denied; defendants' motion for summary
judgment [#48] is granted with respect to the first and second
claims of the complaint, and otherwise denied.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
DATED this 16th day of November, 2006.
s/
s/ Michael R. Hogan
United States District Judge
Aspen Education Group does not provide a therapeutic milieu that is conformative to standards set by any medical body for their "patients," medically recognized therapy, or medically accredited personnel, Aspen's own lawyers successfully argued in Pence v. Aspen Education Group.
http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv (http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv) ... 80-DOR.pdf
Aspen education group turned the details of one of the confessions it mandates from its "patients" over to the police.
The "patient" had confessed he had peeped into the girls dorm, after climbing onto a roof.
The "patient's" parents sued over Aspens failure to provide a clinically valid therapeutic milieu, for failing to conform to clinical, medical standards, for violating the confidentiality of the patient/ therapist relationship, and for subjecting their "patient" to "therapy" from a group of people who were not licensed therapists or medical personnel.
Aspen Education Group's defense was that, yes, they failed to provide therapy that conforms to standards of medicine, but that was OK because they ONLY agreed to provide...
Aspen Education Group wrote: "group and individual counseling as dictated by
PROGRAM design......NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs
complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a
LICENSED counselor,2"
Aspen education Group argued that confessions the "patient" was expected to make was NOT part of a therapeutic treatment program, and that NorthStar was NOT a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program.
Aspen Education Group argued largely SUCCESSFULLY that because their "patient's" therapist was unlicensed and semi-successfully that because their employees were not actual medical personnel, HiPPA statues did not apply to them.
Pence v Aspen Education Group wrote: "Because she is not a licensed counselor and there is no evidence she is an employee of a licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees."
Pence v Aspen Education Group wrote:"There is insufficient evidence to conclude that there are no disputed issues of fact as to whether information conveyed by Harless to police was protected health information within the meaning of HIPAA, and whether NorthStar is a covered entity within the meaning of HIPAA."
This judgment is dated 2006. Does anybody know how the rest of the case turned out?
Anybody, other than a guest posting troll-bag called whooter.
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Pretty much says it all right there...
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Pence v Aspen Education Group wrote:"There is insufficient evidence to conclude that there are no disputed issues of fact as to whether information conveyed by Harless to police was protected health information within the meaning of HIPAA, and whether NorthStar is a covered entity within the meaning of HIPAA."
This judgment is dated 2006. Does anybody know how the rest of the case turned out?
Anybody, other than a guest posting troll-bag called whooter.
Conclusion
Based on the foregoing, plaintiffs' motion for partial
summary judgment [#38] is denied;
IT IS SO ORDERED.
DATED this 16th day of November, 2006.
s/ Michael R. Hogan
United States District Judge
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Unbelievable. I am generally a 'pro-program' person here and I had actually been telling people I thought that Aspen programs were 'some of the best'. Boy, I am sorry to see that they came out with this information about not providing treatment. I never would have believed it until their own lawyers said it in court. I doubt they would perjure themselves and ruin Aspen's reputation. That wouldn't make sense for their own attorneys to do. Man, this blows me away that Aspen has been lying to all of us for so many years. It's really quite sad.
I mean, hell, I would still send my kids there because they are 99% successful and you cant beat that. Its just amazing that it is accomplished with little or no medical personnel. Ya gotta give'em credit. They do good.
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
As long as the check clears and the kid turns out okay.... everything else is gravy!!!
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Unbelievable. I am generally a 'pro-program' person here and I had actually been telling people I thought that Aspen programs were 'some of the best'. Boy, I am sorry to see that they came out with this information about not providing treatment. I never would have believed it until their own lawyers said it in court. I doubt they would perjure themselves and ruin Aspen's reputation. That wouldn't make sense for their own attorneys to do. Man, this blows me away that Aspen has been lying to all of us for so many years. It's really quite sad.
This parent seems much more reasonable than TheWho, the guy who keeps saying Aspen is wonderful even though they just admitted they provide no treatment during the trial phase of a lawsuit, under oath. She seems upset to find out she was cheated and her trust and advocacy were misplaced; that she was fleeced and her child denied the services needed to make them healthy. This seems like it would be a normal reaction.
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Unbelievable. I am generally a 'pro-program' person here and I had actually been telling people I thought that Aspen programs were 'some of the best'. Boy, I am sorry to see that they came out with this information about not providing treatment. I never would have believed it until their own lawyers said it in court. I doubt they would perjure themselves and ruin Aspen's reputation. That wouldn't make sense for their own attorneys to do. Man, this blows me away that Aspen has been lying to all of us for so many years. It's really quite sad.
This parent seems much more reasonable than TheWho, the guy who keeps saying Aspen is wonderful even though they just admitted they provide no treatment during the trial phase of a lawsuit, under oath. She seems upset to find out she was cheated and her trust and advocacy were misplaced; that she was fleeced and her child denied the services needed to make them healthy. This seems like it would be a normal reaction.
Well money is a big motivator. She wanted her money back, so sure she was pissed. Plus she found out her son is a pervert and its all over the web. How would you feel?
The rest of us can enjoy the benefits of Aspens 99% success rate while the other 1% get all the attention and sound bites.
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
As long as the check clears and the kid turns out okay.... everything else is gravy!!!
The kid is now in prison based on what his "treatment team" reported to the police. Maybe he's out by now.
What would be interesting to get is Aspen's expert testifying that it did not supply a mental health or drug abuse treatment program, that AEG is not covered by HIPPA because it does not provide any sort of treatment, and that it never promised to.
Ursus, are you interested in filing an FIA demand?
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
As long as the check clears and the kid turns out okay.... everything else is gravy!!!
The kid is now in prison based on what his "treatment team" reported to the police. Maybe he's out by now.
What would be interesting to get is Aspen's expert testifying that it did not supply a mental health or drug abuse treatment program, that AEG is not covered by HIPPA because it does not provide any sort of treatment, and that it never promised to.
Ursus, are you interested in filing an FIA demand?
At the trial all parties agreed that Aspen Education group provided a licensed therapist for Matthew Pence during his stay at NorthStar.
The parties seem to agree that ...... one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
What was Matthews lawyer thinking going to trial? They got killed on this one.
If Matthew had just followed the rules and didnt run around breaking into offices at night he would have had the opportunity to get the help he needed. Instead he ended up in jail.
I guess when they say "dead insane or in Jail" they have a reason behind it. I just feel bad for everyone involved.
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
As long as the check clears and the kid turns out okay.... everything else is gravy!!!
The kid is now in prison based on what his "treatment team" reported to the police. Maybe he's out by now.
What would be interesting to get is Aspen's expert testifying that it did not supply a mental health or drug abuse treatment program, that AEG is not covered by HIPPA because it does not provide any sort of treatment, and that it never promised to.
Ursus, are you interested in filing an FIA demand?
At the trial all parties agreed that Aspen Education group provided a licensed therapist for Matthew Pence during his stay at NorthStar.
The parties seem to agree that ...... one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
No. All parties agree there was a licensed therapist at Northstar but that the "therapist" Pence saw, "Trudy Godat," was unlicensed.
Plaintiffs complain that Matthew Pence was seen by an unlicensed therapist, Trudy Godat, when Matthew's depression significantly worsened, his personal psychiatrist was not contacted, an appointment with a different psychiatrist was scheduled at a future date, Matthew did not receive supervision and a safe environment, Matthew was instead allowed to roam the premises and gain access to the roof, offices and computers, Matthew's confessions were turned over to police, and Matthew was expelled, arrested and indicted.
Aspen's successful defense was that since it was not a treatment program for mental or drug abuse disorders, and never promised to conform to any medical standard for a treatment center, it was not liable.
Aspen was also successful in arguing that Hardess was not under the supervision of a licensed therapist, was not medical personnel, though "director" of Pences "treatment," and was thusly free to turn Pence’s confessions over to the police.
You’re purposely obtuse. Perhaps if you respected the seriousness of this issue, you wouldn't have killed your son.
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Well, a "treatment team" would probably provide treatment, wouldn't it? Why does Aspen call it a "treatment team" and then deny in open court that they provide any treatment and never intended to do so?
I guess they can call it whatever they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they do not offer any treatment, as they argued in court.
Did they lie to the judge or lie to the parents? Both statements (that they DO offer treatment and that they DON'T offer treatment) can't be true. Either way, Aspen is either committing fraud or perjury.
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Well, a "treatment team" would probably provide treatment, wouldn't it? Why does Aspen call it a "treatment team" and then deny in open court that they provide any treatment and never intended to do so?
I guess they can call it whatever they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they do not offer any treatment, as they argued in court.
Did they lie to the judge or lie to the parents? Both statements (that they DO offer treatment and that they DON'T offer treatment) can't be true. Either way, Aspen is either committing fraud or perjury.
Looks like you are wrong. Here is a link to the court records that Ursus posted. Look at the bottom of the page #2:
2 The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=8cd4f84981087ee35abeb256ec4f24c6&sid=8cd4f84981087ee35abeb256ec4f24c6#p345882)
I dont know what Matthews lawyer was thinking. They got killed on this one. They all agreed he was being seen by a therapist who was licensed after the evidence was brought forward.
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Well, a "treatment team" would probably provide treatment, wouldn't it? Why does Aspen call it a "treatment team" and then deny in open court that they provide any treatment and never intended to do so?
I guess they can call it whatever they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they do not offer any treatment, as they argued in court.
Did they lie to the judge or lie to the parents? Both statements (that they DO offer treatment and that they DON'T offer treatment) can't be true. Either way, Aspen is either committing fraud or perjury.
I see your point here. You can call a cat a dog if you want, but it's still a cat, right? Aspen calls them "treatment teams" but also admits in court that they "provide no treatment."
Interestingly, right on Northstar's website they also say all counselors are therapists, but in court they said the opposite - that none of the counselors are therapists. So they lied in court or lied in their advertising. One or the other.
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Well, a "treatment team" would probably provide treatment, wouldn't it? Why does Aspen call it a "treatment team" and then deny in open court that they provide any treatment and never intended to do so?
I guess they can call it whatever they want, but it doesn't change the fact that they do not offer any treatment, as they argued in court.
Did they lie to the judge or lie to the parents? Both statements (that they DO offer treatment and that they DON'T offer treatment) can't be true. Either way, Aspen is either committing fraud or perjury.
I see your point here. You can call a cat a dog if you want, but it's still a cat, right? Aspen calls them "treatment teams" but also admits in court that they "provide no treatment."
Interestingly, right on Northstar's website they also say all counselors are therapists, but in court they said the opposite - that none of the counselors are therapists. So they lied in court or lied in their advertising. One or the other.
Well I like to stick with the court records... hey and I'll even throw in a link for ya:
This was an interesting point:
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=7ba17347a19dcee16ccd24f7dfa577c4&sid=7ba17347a19dcee16ccd24f7dfa577c4#p345882)
2 The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
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They do very good at claiming 99% success and getting you to believe such hype. But being gullible is not a crime even if you are guilty of it.
As long as the check clears and the kid turns out okay.... everything else is gravy!!!
The kid is now in prison based on what his "treatment team" reported to the police. Maybe he's out by now.
What would be interesting to get is Aspen's expert testifying that it did not supply a mental health or drug abuse treatment program, that AEG is not covered by HIPPA because it does not provide any sort of treatment, and that it never promised to.
Ursus, are you interested in filing an FIA demand?
At the trial all parties agreed that Aspen Education group provided a licensed therapist for Matthew Pence during his stay at NorthStar.
The parties seem to agree that ...... one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
No. All parties agree there was a licensed therapist at Northstar but that the "therapist" Pence SAW, "Trudy Godat," was unlicensed.
Plaintiffs complain that Matthew Pence was seen by an unlicensed therapist, Trudy Godat, when Matthew's depression significantly worsened, his personal psychiatrist was not contacted, an appointment with a different psychiatrist was scheduled at a future date, Matthew did not receive supervision and a safe environment, Matthew was instead allowed to roam the premises and gain access to the roof, offices and computers, Matthew's confessions were turned over to police, and Matthew was expelled, arrested and indicted.
Aspen's successful defense was that since it was not a treatment program for mental or drug abuse disorders, and never promised to conform to any medical standard for a treatment center, it was not liable.
Aspen was also successful in arguing that Hardess was not under the supervision of a licensed therapist, was not medical personnel, though "director" of Pences "treatment," and was thusly free to turn Pence’s confessions over to the police.
You’re purposely obtuse. Perhaps if you respected the seriousness of this issue, you wouldn't have killed your son.[/quote]
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So then the couselor WAS under the guidance of the licensed therapist then. Thanks for pointing that out, guest. So the couselor who worked under the therapist was subject to HIPAA and this should be tried in court.
The lawyers must have lied in court when they said she wasn't.
Either way, whether licensed or not, Aspen declared in open court that theu do not provide treatment, but on the website it says it does and that all couselors are therapists. Doesn't quite jive with the truth.
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I would strongly suggest that people follow the link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28756) and read for themselves. This was a request for summary judgment brought by both parties, and the court was unable to rule on the last three of five claims. These were:
III. Third Claim - Negligent Provision of Mental Health Tx
IV. Fourth Claim - Breach of Confidential Relationship
V. Fifth Claim - Punitive Damages
As soon as I posted this last night, Whooter began with a veritable barrage of obfuscating and misleading posts, quoting parts that were discussion material as if they were conclusion material, and ignoring the ruling on its face.
Presumably, this case continued to trial. However, I have been unable to find any mention of it. Does anyone know whether Aspen settled this out of court to prevent further exposure of the issues raised?
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No. All parties agree there was a licensed therapist at Northstar but that the "therapist" Pence SAW, "Trudy Godat," was unlicensed.
When in doubt its always good to go back to the court documents:
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=39ca5607b3f36dacc3c0e5a3f42bd3df&sid=39ca5607b3f36dacc3c0e5a3f42bd3df#p345882)
2 The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat (Director of North Star) was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.
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No. All parties agree there was a licensed therapist at Northstar but that the "therapist" Pence SAW, "Trudy Godat," was unlicensed.
When in doubt its always good to go back to the court documents:
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=39ca5607b3f36dacc3c0e5a3f42bd3df&sid=39ca5607b3f36dacc3c0e5a3f42bd3df#p345882)
2 The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat (Director of North Star) was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.
Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist..
but Aspen is being sued over the FACT that Mathew received “therapy” from an unlicensed therapist.
People interested can read the link themselves and see the truth for themselves whatever your sad attempts at spin
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No. All parties agree there was a licensed therapist at Northstar but that the "therapist" Pence SAW, "Trudy Godat," was unlicensed.
When in doubt its always good to go back to the court documents:
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=39ca5607b3f36dacc3c0e5a3f42bd3df#p345882)
2 The parties seem to agree that although Trudy Godat (Director of North Star) was not licenced, one member of Matthew Pence's "treatment team" was a licenced therapist.
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.
Again, Whooter, you are quoting from text discussing one of the claims, and completely ignoring the fact that the court was unable to rule on three out of the five claims brought to the court's attention.
The revelation that one single member of Matthew Pence's treatment team happened to be a licensed therapist came from one of the footnotes.
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
No, their defense was that they DON'T provide treatment. And it was established that Matthew was seeing an unlicensed therapist at Aspen Educatoin Group's program. Aspen lawyers used her lack of a license as a defense in their argument. You might have missed that part. aspen already used the defense that they never agreed to and never did provide treatment or therapy. So this last poster (Whooter) is just a liar, plain and simple.
Whooter is obviously struggling with reading or his emotions or both, as he's very sloppy this week since Aspen killed any shred of credibility he might have had before. We know it hurts to be shot down by someone you love, Whooter, but they have no use for you anymore. They don't want your help. the jig is up and they already admitted in court that everything you post here is lies. Sorry you're hurt by this, but please take it out on Aspen and not Fornits.
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
Then Northstar would be a covered entity. It sounds like a con was put before the court. You're screwed any which way you flim-flam.
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
Then Northstar would be a covered entity. It sounds like a con was put before the court. You're screwed any which way you flim-flam.
Well for now, what we know ,is that the Pence's are screwed and matthew is in jail.
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
Then Northstar would be a covered entity. It sounds like a con was put before the court. You're screwed any which way you flim-flam.
That's what I've been saying. they either lied to the court or lie in their advertising. If Metthew was treated by a licensed therapist, HIPAA applies and Aspen is fucked. Plus they still have to deal with the rest of the claims. If there is no licensed therapist, then they are practicing therapy without a license, which is a crime, and a serious one at that. Either way, they can't have it both ways. They lied.
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That's what I've been saying. they either lied to the court or lie in their advertising. If Metthew was treated by a licensed therapist, HIPAA applies and Aspen is fucked. Plus they still have to deal with the rest of the claims. If there is no licensed therapist, then they are practicing therapy without a license, which is a crime, and a serious one at that. Either way, they can't have it both ways. They lied.
What had happened is Harless spoke to the police about Matthew breaking into the schools offices and climbing onto the roof to watch the girls change their clothes. Harless is the director of the school and therefore isnt covered by HIPAA laws since she isnt licensed nor working for a licensed person. When the police arrived Matthew disclosed what he had done to the police also. Matthew broke the schools contract and was arrested by the police and removed from the property.
The court had this to say:
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.[/b]
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=d5a25962e8d670958ef20cba4b2045a1&sid=d5a25962e8d670958ef20cba4b2045a1#p345882)
Hope this helps
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Yes, a member of his "treatment team" (whatever that means) was a therapist.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
Then Northstar would be a covered entity. It sounds like a con was put before the court. You're screwed any which way you flim-flam.
That's what I've been saying. they either lied to the court or lie in their advertising. If Metthew was treated by a licensed therapist, HIPAA applies and Aspen is fucked. Plus they still have to deal with the rest of the claims. If there is no licensed therapist, then they are practicing therapy without a license, which is a crime, and a serious one at that. Either way, they can't have it both ways. They lied.
Yes, these unlicensed counselors are practicing therapy illegally. They should be arrested and tried for this serious crime.
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That's what I've been saying. they either lied to the court or lie in their advertising. If Metthew was treated by a licensed therapist, HIPAA applies and Aspen is fucked. Plus they still have to deal with the rest of the claims. If there is no licensed therapist, then they are practicing therapy without a license, which is a crime, and a serious one at that. Either way, they can't have it both ways. They lied.
What had happened is Harless spoke to the police about Matthew breaking into the schools offices and climbing onto the roof to watch the girls change their clothes. Harless is the director of the school and therefore isnt covered by HIPAA laws since she isnt licensed nor working for a licensed person. When the police arrived Matthew disclosed what he had done to the police also. Matthew broke the schools contract and was arrested by the police and removed from the property.
The court had this to say:
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.[/b]
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=c212fbc68f763566dac03481b063a73b&sid=c212fbc68f763566dac03481b063a73b#p345882)
Hope this helps
Your link isnt working.
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Harless is the director of the school and therefore isnt covered by HIPAA laws since she isnt licensed nor working for a licensed person.
Well at least we have established that North Star provides licensed therapists and that they provide Treatment via a treatment team. Now the next step is to see if Matthew Pence was being seen by one.
The program itself is what has to be determined as a covered entity, not the individuals. My God, if staff without licenses weren't bound by HIPAA...Jesus Christ!
Hope this helps
Doesn't help you. See above contradictory posts by Mr. Reuben. The guy is digging Aspen's grave. Shouldn't Aspen send word to John D. Reuben to shut the hell up?
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Hey Reuben. If Aspen provides no treatment and their records aren't covered by HIPAA, can we get copies of Mikey's records from ASR?
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The program itself is what has to be determined as a covered entity, not the individuals. My God, if staff without licenses weren't bound by HIPAA...Jesus Christ!
The courts dont agree with you. If you are not working for a licensed employee of the entity then you are not given HIPAA training.
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The program itself is what has to be determined as a covered entity, not the individuals. My God, if staff without licenses weren't bound by HIPAA...Jesus Christ!
The courts dont agree with you. If you are not working for a licensed employee of the entity then you are not given HIPAA training.
Funny you say that, because the employees of Northstar WERE given HIPAA training, according to the court document you keep posting. This lead the court to conclude that because the employees are receiving HIPAA training, the facility believes itself subject to HIPAA rules. And you're wrong about how HIPAA works. It's not an individual thing. It covers "entities" (i.e. businesses) that deal with any electronic records of clients receiving care.
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The program itself is what has to be determined as a covered entity, not the individuals. My God, if staff without licenses weren't bound by HIPAA...Jesus Christ!
The courts dont agree with you. If you are not working for a licensed employee of the entity then you are not given HIPAA training.
Funny you say that, because the employees of Northstar WERE given HIPAA training, according to the court document you keep posting. This lead the court to conclude that because the employees are receiving HIPAA training, the facility believes itself subject to HIPAA rules. And you're wrong about how HIPAA works. It's not an individual thing. It covers "entities" (i.e. businesses) that deal with any electronic records of clients receiving care.
Of course they were, all businesses with licensed therapists have to have HIPAA training. But not all the employees or staff need to be trained or abide by the HIPAA laws. Only those who report to a licensed medical person (Therapist) need HIPAA Training.
So this says that they have licensed therapists or they wouldnt need the HIPAA training.
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Not sure I would claim Therapists (Plural). That Aspen might now have a single person with a degree is plausible. However, the fact that the bulk of the staff on the campus are not licensed as therapists or counselors should be a wake up call for the parents. These people have absolutely no business or training to be working with children on mental health issues or anything else. One is either trained, or a hack. You can't be both in the same area.
It is clear from reading the court documents that indeed this was technically about Northstar and not necessarily about Aspen as a whole. However, without further information nobody can claim that Aspen as a whole is all licensed therapists. That each campus might have one single person with a degree in this field does not explain away that the bulk of those who are supposedly "treating" students and giving "counseling" are in fact not trained or licensed to do so. This "life experience" crap where staff claim that because they used drugs or were alcoholics and therefore are entitled and experienced enough to give credible counseling and therapy to teens, is nonsense.
I think most parents are duped in to thinking that they are sending their child away to a program that is legitimate and using fully trained and licensed staff to help their children, when in fact we have seen this is not the case at any of these programs. What we do see are hacks, who have worked in the system for years, founding their own programs with no experience or formal training or licensing who may hire a single trained person so they can pose as somehow legitimate, but in general they usually don't hire such people. And just because NorthStar or Aspen have a single person there who is licensed, unless that one individual is doing all the real therapy and counseling work, the teens are getting mixed treatment, which does not help.
The secretary in a law office might have some knowledge as a legal hack by virtue of hearing about the law all day, but this person is not qualified, nor would it be legal, for this person to offer any sort of legal advice whatsoever. And generally such secretaries and assistants in such offices actually have college credits from legal classes, specific to the work they are performing. But without the license, and without the law degree it is wrong and illegal for them to offer even advice on matters pertaining to law, let alone practicing it. Therefore, for Aspen or any of these other places full of hacks, they have no business messing with teens who are fragile and in need of serious care and not that provided by hacks.
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That's what I've been saying. they either lied to the court or lie in their advertising. If Metthew was treated by a licensed therapist, HIPAA applies and Aspen is fucked. Plus they still have to deal with the rest of the claims. If there is no licensed therapist, then they are practicing therapy without a license, which is a crime, and a serious one at that. Either way, they can't have it both ways. They lied.
What had happened is Harless spoke to the police about Matthew breaking into the schools offices and climbing onto the roof to watch the girls change their clothes. Harless is the director of the school and therefore isnt covered by HIPAA laws since she isnt licensed nor working for a licensed person. When the police arrived Matthew disclosed what he had done to the police also. Matthew broke the schools contract and was arrested by the police and removed from the property.
The court had this to say:
The court agrees with defendants (Aspen Education Group) that Harless's alleged disclosure of Matthew Pence's confessions to police was not an extreme transgression of the bounds of socially tolerable conduct. Matthew Pence's IIED claim therefore fails as a matter of law.[/b]
Court Records (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=345882&sid=d5a25962e8d670958ef20cba4b2045a1&sid=d5a25962e8d670958ef20cba4b2045a1#p345882)
Hope this helps
Except Aspen Education Group does not sell North Star Center as a “school.” It sells it as a “residential program” offering psychological “intervention.” But it uses semantical vagueries you and contractual small print to shield itself from responsibility for failing to meet the standards expected of providers of treatment.
http://www.northstarcenter.com/ (http://www.northstarcenter.com/)
NorthStar is one of the first young adult programs in the country, founded in 1991, which paved the way for many other programs to serve the various needs of this population. Our experience has shown that young adults usually overestimate their ability to reintegrate into the community after an effective primary or wilderness intervention. At NorthStar, we put our emphasis at the forefront of our program into teaching skills to manage recovery and independent living. We gradually introduce the student to the freedom they desire and help them learn from the challenges this presents.
At NorthStar, students will:
• [b[Start with a tighter structure as they begin to apply new tools and gradually earn their way to more personal freedom. [/b]
• Deepen their understanding of recovery from substance use, continue to solidify their commitment to recovery and learn specific tools to help them stay clean and sober.
• Learn a variety of coping tools using Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) skills in addition to 12-step recovery to help them manage emotions.
• Use individual and group therapy to explore past emotional issues which contributed to substance use and personal decline.
• Begin to internalize a sense of personal structure that leads to consistent motivation and responsible action.
• Interact daily in a community of peers where personal integrity is developed and supported throughout the program.
• Explore interests and life goals and establish a path to accomplish those goals through academic preparation, advisement and coaching.
• Continue to improve their ability to engage parents on an adult-to-adult level.
• Learn how to have fun while sober and balance work and play!
Sounds like a "treatment center,” right? (P.S. Note, NS writes "in their experience young adults" find it hard to reintegrate into society after "wilderness intervention." Hmmm. That statement is in direct opposition of the "findings" of Ellen Behren's "reports" that detainees reintegrated terrifically after abduction and forced marches)
Harless was director of Pences “treatment” and highest ranking member of his “residential treatment staff.”
http://www.northstarcenter.com/ (http://www.northstarcenter.com/)
Residential Treatment Staff ... Program Director
It was to Harless that Mathew was expected to make his “confessions.”
Regular confessions were necessary for him to move through the “phases” of the program.
Pence and family were under the understanding that the groups he attended, his “counseling” with her, his individual therapy, the process of moving through “phases” was part of his “treatment” and he was attending a "treatment program."
However, Aspen Education group argued that the “phases,” the group and individual counseling it offered in no way legally qualify as treatment, that it was in no way a treatment program, and, therefore, in no way liable for harless’s police notification.
Expert witnesses disagree as to whether Matthew Pence's list of confessions was part of a therapeutic treatment program, whether NorthStar is a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program, and whether NorthStar personnel violated a standard of care applicable to counselors and therapists. See Dr. Larsen's Aff. (for defendants), Dr. Huffine's Aff. (for plaintiffs). Disputed issues of material fact preclude summary judgment for Matthew Pence or defendants on the third claim for negligent provision of mental health treatment.
Aspen Education Group is running a scam of gargantuan proportions
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I guess what I want to know is whether all the claims of the parents were ruled upon in the court case?
It appears to me that the question of whether unlicensed staff were offering treatment and professional counseling was taking place at North Star and whether the parents have a legitimate claim that North Star falsely advertised regarding this matter.
What the case seemed to cover was the question of whether contacting the police was a violation of patient/doctor privilege and the court merely ruled that because the specific person who made the police report was not licensed, the report was legal as they were not covered by the privilege. And it mentioned that one of the students "team" was in fact licensed, but was not involved in making the report.
But as the poster above mentioned, it is the vagueness of North Star and Aspen's brochures and in communications with parents looking for a place to send their children that parents are duped in to believing that these are real treatment facilities and that their children will receive real, professional and licensed mental health treatment and counseling for their problems. And as this family now has learned, that answer is no. Their kids are actually in two programs. One is not a licensed treatment program, and the other is, but plays only a minor and legal role to avoid accountability. Yes the students might occasionally meet with a real person licensed and trained to provide therapy and counseling. However the bulk of the program is about unlicensed staff and the "other" part of the program where students are forced to confess things and be subjected to humiliation and other deprivations, but because Aspen and North Star can claim this is not actually treatment but merely a "program", this second and clearly separate function is cleared from legal action.
Part of winning a lawsuit would entail "reasonable belief" in the fact that most people who read such a brochure as Aspen and North Star and these other Teen Prison Camps put out, would reasonably believe that the ENTIRE program is a fully licensed and trained treatment facility offering professional counseling and mental health care. And if the parents can make such a case, North Star could be in serious trouble. Using vague descriptions only works so long. A real lawyer could build a case to show that deception was used and that harm was done. Just because the first portion of the case showed that it was legal to make a police report does not answer the question, as far as I can see, as to whether North Star is guilty of false advertising and engaging in treatment by unlicensed and untrained staff.
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It appears to me that the question of whether unlicensed staff were offering treatment and professional counseling was taking place at North Star and whether the parents have a legitimate claim that North Star falsely advertised regarding this matter.
Something to consider:
The confusion may be that there is an option to have an individual therapist. Some of the programs offer individual therapy for those kids who need it and/or are on meds which require follow up. If you choose this option (or if it is necessary) then the therapist is billed separately and some places have you pay the therapist directly to their office if they are not part of the staff.
If the therapist who performs the individual therapy is on Aspen Staff then the contract may be worded differently. So what we need to know is what Northstar offers and if the Pences chose the individual therapy option (if that is how it was set up.)
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I guess what I want to know is whether all the claims of the parents were ruled upon in the court case?
No, they were not.
As I mentioned previously, whether it was this thread or one of the other ones discussing this case, I was unable to find any further mention of it despite extensive searching. The case as it stands right now, i.e., what has been posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28756), is a summary judgment requested by both parties in the hopes of foregoing a jury trial.
The judge ruled on two of the five claims. The remaining three (which include the HIPAA issues as well as punitive damages sought) are assumed to continue to a jury trial.
It's possible that this case is stashed in one of those pay-per-view or subscriber archives such as WestLaw. It's also possible that it hasn't come to trial yet. And it's also possible that Aspen may have offered some kind of settlement to prevent said damning issues from seeing any more light of day.
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I guess what I want to know is whether all the claims of the parents were ruled upon in the court case?
No, they were not.
As I mentioned previously, whether it was this thread or one of the other ones discussing this case, I was unable to find any further mention of it despite extensive searching. The case as it stands right now, i.e., what has been posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28756), is a summary judgment requested by both parties in the hopes of foregoing a jury trial.
The judge ruled on two of the five claims. The remaining three (which include the HIPAA issues as well as punitive damages sought) are assumed to continue to a jury trial.
It's possible that this case is stashed in one of those pay-per-view or subscriber archives such as WestLaw. It's also possible that it hasn't come to trial yet. And it's also possible that Aspen may have offered some kind of settlement to prevent said damning issues from seeing any more light of day.
NO.
What would be great to get is Aspen Education Group's expert witness, Larson's depostion for Aspen that they are in any legal sense a treatment center for drug or mental disorders, and that the "phases" Aspen offers are in no legal sense of the term "therapeutic."
Can you track that down
III. Third Claim - Negligent Provision of Mental Health Tx
Expert witnesses disagree as to whether Matthew Pence's list of confessions was part of a therapeutic treatment program, whether NorthStar is a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program, and whether NorthStar personnel violated a standard of care applicable to counselors and therapists. See Dr. Larsen's Aff. (for defendants), Dr. Huffine's Aff. (for plaintiffs). Disputed issues of material fact preclude summary judgment for Matthew Pence or defendants on the third claim for negligent provision of mental health treatment.
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fixed
I guess what I want to know is whether all the claims of the parents were ruled upon in the court case?
No, they were not.
As I mentioned previously, whether it was this thread or one of the other ones discussing this case, I was unable to find any further mention of it despite extensive searching. The case as it stands right now, i.e., what has been posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28756), is a summary judgment requested by both parties in the hopes of foregoing a jury trial.
The judge ruled on two of the five claims. The remaining three (which include the HIPAA issues as well as punitive damages sought) are assumed to continue to a jury trial.
It's possible that this case is stashed in one of those pay-per-view or subscriber archives such as WestLaw. It's also possible that it hasn't come to trial yet. And it's also possible that Aspen may have offered some kind of settlement to prevent said damning issues from seeing any more light of day.
NO.
What would be great to get is Aspen Education Group's expert witness, Larson's deposition for Aspen in which he posited that they are NOT in any legal sense a treatment center for drug or mental disorders, and that the "phases" Aspen offers are in no legal sense of the term "therapeutic."
Can you track that down?
III. Third Claim - Negligent Provision of Mental Health Tx
Expert witnesses disagree as to whether Matthew Pence's list of confessions was part of a therapeutic treatment program, whether NorthStar is a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program, and whether NorthStar personnel violated a standard of care applicable to counselors and therapists. See Dr. Larsen's Aff. (for defendants), Dr. Huffine's Aff. (for plaintiffs). Disputed issues of material fact preclude summary judgment for Matthew Pence or defendants on the third claim for negligent provision of mental health treatment.
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What would be great to get is Aspen Education Group's expert witness, Larson's depostion for Aspen that they are in any legal sense a treatment center for drug or mental disorders, and that the "phases" Aspen offers are in no legal sense of the term "therapeutic."
Not too sure. Most anything can be considered therapeutic. Sitting quietly watching the sun set would cover it, thats therapeutic enough to put up a sign.
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Not too sure. Most anything can be considered therapeutic. Sitting quietly watching the sun set would cover it, thats therapeutic enough to put up a sign.
In some sense of the word anyone can be called a doctor and anything can be called therapeutic. Legally and medically, however, these terms are tightly defined and infer liabilities and standards of care.
You may not be sure about that, but Aspen is .
Aspen swore under oath that it is NOT ,in any legal sense, a treatment center for "drug and alcohol or mental health therapy", that the "phases" Aspen offers are, in no legal sense of the term, "therapeutic," and that the counseling Harless offered and the confessions she took were not part of any form of therapeutic process
III. Third Claim - Negligent Provision of Mental Health Tx
Expert witnesses disagree as to whether Matthew Pence's list of confessions was part of a therapeutic treatment program, whether NorthStar is a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program, and whether NorthStar personnel violated a standard of care applicable to counselors and therapists. See Dr. Larsen's Aff. (for defendants), Dr. Huffine's Aff. (for plaintiffs). Disputed issues of material fact preclude summary judgment for Matthew Pence or defendants on the third claim for negligent provision of mental health treatment.
[/quote][/quote]
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Flip-flop, wiggle-wiggle-squirm-squirm. Sorry, Whooter, but nothing you (a secondary source) say matters, as Aspen (a primary source) has already disclosed that it provides no therapy or treatment, only "phases" of a "program" just like the worst abusive ones out there (WWASPS, Straight, KHK, etc).
I wonder how Whooter claims Aspen programs "aren't like the other programs from years ago" when they use the identical "program" with "phases"? I guess he was lying about that, too.
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Aspen swore under oath that it is NOT ,in any legal sense, a treatment center for "drug and alcohol or mental health therapy", that the "phases" Aspen offers are, in no legal sense of the term, "therapeutic," and that the counseling Harless offered and the confessions she took were not part of any form of therapeutic process
Is there any link that can be provided to support this? I didnt see where Aspen made the statements you listed above. But I can find where the court sided with Aspen that Matthews treatment team included a licensed therapist.
Are you able to cut and paste and exact quote and provide a link?
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Flip-flop, wiggle-wiggle-squirm-squirm. Sorry, Whooter, but nothing you (a secondary source) say matters, as Aspen (a primary source) has already disclosed that it provides no therapy or treatment, only "phases" of a "program" just like the worst abusive ones out there (WWASPS, Straight, KHK, etc).
I wonder how Whooter claims Aspen programs "aren't like the other programs from years ago" when they use the identical "program" with "phases"? I guess he was lying about that, too.
Yes, in fact, the expert witness for Aspen declared that nothing that happens in an Aspen facility can be construed as treatment, as Aspen never made promises to deliver any services from any licensed professionals. Yet, Aspen did deliver therapy sessions illegally by using unlicensed people. The court will decide how much Aspen will have to pay the plaintiffs who are asking $1,000,000 for fraudulently claiming to provide therapy, which implies legal delivery of therapy, i.e. by a licensed provider.
Aspen really stepped in the shit by offering therapy when none is actually delivered or it is delivered illegally. Either way, Aspen is guilty of fraud or practicing without a license.
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Aspen swore under oath that it is NOT ,in any legal sense, a treatment center for "drug and alcohol or mental health therapy", that the "phases" Aspen offers are, in no legal sense of the term, "therapeutic," and that the counseling Harless offered and the confessions she took were not part of any form of therapeutic process
Is there any link that can be provided to support this? I didnt see where Aspen made the statements you listed above. But I can find where the court sided with Aspen that Matthews treatment team included a licensed therapist.
Are you able to cut and paste and exact quote and provide a link?
Who, if thats who you are. I read the first post on this thread and the person confused Harless with being Matthews therapist. They stated she was unlicensed but she is the director and therefore doesn’t need to be licensed. Matthews parents never signed Matthew up for individual Therapy (which costs extra) and that is why he never received those services. So that is where all of this is coming from. They cant post a link because there isn’t any.
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Flip-flop, wiggle-wiggle-squirm-squirm. Sorry, Whooter, but nothing you (a secondary source) say matters, as Aspen (a primary source) has already disclosed that it provides no therapy or treatment, only "phases" of a "program" just like the worst abusive ones out there (WWASPS, Straight, KHK, etc).
I wonder how Whooter claims Aspen programs "aren't like the other programs from years ago" when they use the identical "program" with "phases"? I guess he was lying about that, too.
Yes, in fact, the expert witness for Aspen declared that nothing that happens in an Aspen facility can be construed as treatment, as Aspen never made promises to deliver any services from any licensed professionals. Yet, Aspen did deliver therapy sessions illegally by using unlicensed people. The court will decide how much Aspen will have to pay the plaintiffs who are asking $1,000,000 for fraudulently claiming to provide therapy, which implies legal delivery of therapy, i.e. by a licensed provider.
Aspen really stepped in the shit by offering therapy when none is actually delivered or it is delivered illegally. Either way, Aspen is guilty of fraud or practicing without a license.
Aspen advertised that they would provide therapy through Northstar and Northstar's website still includes this language. The problem is that Northstar was and is providing UNLICENSED therapy sessions. That's where the Pence's cleaned their clock and won a huge settlement. Aspen demanded the settlement include a gag order, so there will be no further disclosure. Aspen paid up big time in this claim, like it has been forced to do in many other cases. Estimates range from $20-$40 MILLION has been paid out by Aspen to settle lawsuits like these in the past few years.
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Lon Woodbury and John D. Reuben are now pushing teens with behavior problems and not mental issues, I guess in response? Since Aspen has clearly stated it provides no treatment of any kind, I have to wonder about the parents who took tax deductions for Aspen programs, listing the deduction as mental health treatment? They defrauded the government and they were probably told it was legitimate by Aspen.
There is a problem with Lon and John D. Reuben's new focus on behavior vs. mental illness for Aspen: How will the parents get their insurance companies to pay for any part of an Aspen program? Given that it is parental choice and not a medical necessity, the insurance companies will gladly shove expensive Aspen placements away as "elective".
Lon and John are either very shortsighted, desperate, or planning on conning some parents. The bottom is falling out and they haven't a clue.
John D. Reuben aspired to be Sue Scheff. How does it feel to finally be at her level John?
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Lon Woodbury and John D. Reuben are now pushing teens with behavior problems and not mental issues, I guess in response? Since Aspen has clearly stated it provides no treatment of any kind, I have to wonder about the parents who took tax deductions for Aspen programs, listing the deduction as mental health treatment? They defrauded the government and they were probably told it was legitimate by Aspen.
I think any of us here would be hard pressed to find anyone who still does their own taxes with the way the tax laws are structured these days. But that aside the program provides documentation which allows for the deduction. The accountant doing the taxes will request this prior to the deduction being made. So if any problems occur it would be with the program not the parents taxes. Any tax changes would take effect the following tax year, not the year they are filling in. So the deductions would still be valid even if the program went out of business that year or declassified to receive governement support.
There is a problem with Lon and John D. Reuben's new focus on behavior vs. mental illness for Aspen: How will the parents get their insurance companies to pay for any part of an Aspen program? Given that it is parental choice and not a medical necessity, the insurance companies will gladly shove expensive Aspen placements away as "elective".
Almost all of Aspen’s clientele pay for services out of pocket. But for those few who qualify for insurance coverage there is an 800 number on the back of the insurance card to call. They will be able to tell you in advance if any or all of the expenses are covered by insurance.
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Lon Woodbury and John D. Reuben are now pushing teens with behavior problems and not mental issues, I guess in response? Since Aspen has clearly stated it provides no treatment of any kind, I have to wonder about the parents who took tax deductions for Aspen programs, listing the deduction as mental health treatment? They defrauded the government and they were probably told it was legitimate by Aspen.
I think any of us here would be hard pressed to find anyone who still does their own taxes with the way the tax laws are structured these days. But that aside the program provides documentation which allows for the deduction. The accountant doing the taxes will request this prior to the deduction being made. So if any problems occur it would be with the program not the parents taxes. Any tax changes would take effect the following tax year, not the year they are filling in. So the deductions would still be valid even if the program went out of business that year or declassified to receive governement support.
There is a problem with Lon and John D. Reuben's new focus on behavior vs. mental illness for Aspen: How will the parents get their insurance companies to pay for any part of an Aspen program? Given that it is parental choice and not a medical necessity, the insurance companies will gladly shove expensive Aspen placements away as "elective".
Almost all of Aspen’s clientele pay for services out of pocket. But for those few who qualify for insurance coverage there is an 800 number on the back of the insurance card to call. They will be able to tell you in advance if any or all of the expenses are covered by insurance.
Nice spin. But you are wrong, the deductions are not valid and you think too highly of accountants. You are either naive or trying to deflect attention from a potentially devastating blow to Aspen. The Feds will not be as warm and fuzzy toward the parents, they will go after them and nail them. Then it will be up to the parents to turn around and sue Aspen for fraudulent misrepresentation.
There is really no need to argue this. You have your weak defense for the terrified, soon to be audited program parents and we've contacted the IRS via GAO with news of Aspen's confession and current legal exposure. Right on good time, Reuben. You were a pain in the ass as the who, but now that you've been dragged into the daylight like a squirming worm you have been a great opponent of Aspen, albeit only because you are a narcissistic braggart and a terminal fuck up.
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Nice spin. But you are wrong, the deductions are not valid and you think too highly of accountants. You are either naive or trying to deflect attention from a potentially devastating blow to Aspen. The Feds will not be as warm and fuzzy toward the parents, they will go after them and nail them. Then it will be up to the parents to turn around and sue Aspen for fraudulent misrepresentation.
There is really no need to argue this. You have your weak defense for the terrified, soon to be audited program parents and we've contacted the IRS via GAO with news of Aspen's confession and current legal exposure. Right on good time, Reuben. You were a pain in the ass as the who, but now that you've been dragged into the daylight like a squirming worm you have been a great opponent of Aspen, albeit only because you are a narcissistic braggart and a terminal fuck up.
Bruce, you lose again. Apparently you use the short form.... Oh, that word at the bottom "Link" is useful and foreign to you...but it comes in handy. Try it sometime.!!
“Publication 502”
Link (http://http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:q9mXZwXY-j0J:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p502.pdf+tax+publication+502&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#15)
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Nice spin. But you are wrong, the deductions are not valid and you think too highly of accountants. You are either naive or trying to deflect attention from a potentially devastating blow to Aspen. The Feds will not be as warm and fuzzy toward the parents, they will go after them and nail them. Then it will be up to the parents to turn around and sue Aspen for fraudulent misrepresentation.
There is really no need to argue this. You have your weak defense for the terrified, soon to be audited program parents and we've contacted the IRS via GAO with news of Aspen's confession and current legal exposure. Right on good time, Reuben. You were a pain in the ass as the who, but now that you've been dragged into the daylight like a squirming worm you have been a great opponent of Aspen, albeit only because you are a narcissistic braggart and a terminal fuck up.
Bruce, you lose again. Apparently you use the short form.... Oh, that word at the bottom "Link" is useful and foreign to you...but it comes in handy. Try it sometime.!!
“Publication 502”
Link (http://http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:q9mXZwXY-j0J:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p502.pdf+tax+publication+502&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#15)
Here's a picture for you John D. Reuben of STICC. Just one of the reasons you'll boil in the bowels of hell for eternity. Choke on it.
(http://http://images.plaxo.com/fetch_image?path=64427561847_0_-1311047583&width=114&size=114)
This is how John D. Reuben and Lon Woodbury react when their bread and butter program implodes. Surely you two EdCon whores are not worried about your reputations? This fresh coat of shit must really shatter your delusions.
Stopped reading at the Bruce part.
Not the Bruce, paranoid and desperate freak. Come on. Robert Bruce isn't the only Fornitscator who knows what a pig you are. You are pissed, though. Out come the ad hominem attacks on anonymous posters as you frantically try to attach identities to them so you can make personal attacks. Glad to see you are now clearly identified and revealed to be as fucked up as we thought. This is how John D. Reuben and
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Not the Bruce, paranoid and desperate freak.
Using ad hominems on yourself isnt going to throw everyone off, Bruce. Oh, wait!! you never guest post, we forgot (wink).
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Bruce, you lose again. Apparently you use the short form.... Oh, that word at the bottom "Link" is useful and foreign to you...but it comes in handy. Try it sometime.!!
“Publication 502”
Link (http://http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:q9mXZwXY-j0J:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p502.pdf+tax+publication+502&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#15)
Why would you post a link to allowable medical and dental deductions when we're talking about a non-treatment program? It makes you look like a clueless ass. Aspen does not provide any form of medical treatment, so it makes no sense for you to post this. Are you getting all emotional and sloppy? Tighten up, Aspen can't afford to have you digging the hole deeper for them.
This is close to what Aspen does, but it is "not includable":
Baby Sitting, Childcare, and Nursing
Services for a Normal, Healthy Baby
You cannot include in medical expenses amounts you pay
for the care of children, even if the expenses enable you,
your spouse, or your dependent to get medical or dental
treatment. Also, any expense allowed as a childcare credit
cannot be treated as an expense paid for medical care.
Gosh, John. All the allowable deductions have words like "medical" and "treatment attached. There's nothing about allowing deductions for a non-clinical warehouse for teenagers that openly admits it provides not a shred of any recognized medical treatment.
Those are the facts John. They have been laid out clearly and despite your efforts not to, you have brought more damning facts to the table in your hamfisted and idiotic attempts to defend AEG.
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Not the Bruce, paranoid and desperate freak.
Using ad hominems on yourself isnt going to throw everyone off, Bruce. Oh, wait!! you never guest post, we forgot (wink).
You must rub one out to the Bruce three times a day, killer.
I give the admins permission to confirm I am NOT Robert Bruce, which should drive Reuben's paranoia meter into the red.
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Not the Bruce, paranoid and desperate freak.
Using ad hominems on yourself isnt going to throw everyone off, Bruce. Oh, wait!! you never guest post, we forgot (wink).
You must rub one out to the Bruce three times a day, killer.
I give the admins permission to confirm I am NOT Robert Bruce, which should drive Reuben's paranoia meter into the red.
Sorry Bruce, Wiggle wiggle, cant get away. When your caught your caught. Oh, wait it cant be you.. you never guest post!!!
Classic line.. (especially when not logged in!!)
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That's interesting (not), but you're getting off the subject of the tax deductions. Explain how a parent can use Publication 502 "Medical and Dental Expenses" to find a deduction for Aspen? "Medical and Dental Expenses" would not be considered relevant to AEG. They are not even a covered HIPAA entity.
You guys are screwed.
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The real joke is that you think you know who you are talking to when you dont. It is fun to sit back and watch you two.
Bruce you are too predictable and easy to spot, but you get credit for trying.
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That's interesting (not), but you're getting off the subject of the tax deductions. Explain how a parent can use Publication 502 "Medical and Dental Expenses" to find a deduction for Aspen? "Medical and Dental Expenses" would not be considered relevant to AEG. They are not even a covered HIPAA entity.
You guys are screwed.
A good login name for you may be "Bruce the accountant Nazi" lol. Go get'em...Aspen is screwed now!! Bruce the accountant Nazi is coming!!!
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The real joke is that you think you know who you are talking to when you dont. It is fun to sit back and watch you two.
Bruce you are too predictable and easy to spot, but you get credit for trying.
You are right. Why do we hide? Again, though: We were discussing taking a tax deduction for AEG as a medical expense. If you can deter yourself from trying to turn this into a flame war. You represent Aspen and you are behaving like you need a good dose of Aspen's "treatment", whatever the hell that is.
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The real joke is that you think you know who you are talking to when you dont. It is fun to sit back and watch you two.
Bruce you are too predictable and easy to spot, but you get credit for trying.
You are right. Why do we hide? Again, though: We were discussing taking a tax deduction for AEG as a medical expense. If you can deter yourself from trying to turn this into a flame war. You represent Aspen and you are behaving like you need a good dose of Aspen's "treatment", whatever the hell that is.
You're making an excellent point here (on topic) guest. What will the ramifications be to AEG and to parents regarding tax liability? AEG has told parents tuition is deductible as a "medical expense" but they have admitted in court that they offer no treatment whatsoever, not medical nor psychological. I believe it's the parents that will be screwed when the IRS catches up to the scam. AEG might suffer if the parents turn around and sue them for false advertising. However, the results probably won't be known, as AEG settles all of its lawsuits in the dark to avoid the bad publicity, like the Pence case, in which the payout was rumored to be in the millions. And that's only one of dozens of cases AEG has settled in the last calendar year.
As for accusing RobertBruce of being the anonymous poster, it wasn't. It was me and I'm not him. Don't let Reuben turn this into a petty flame war, as he's prone to do when he's lost the argument on the merits, as has happened in this thread for the umpteenth time.
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The real joke is that you think you know who you are talking to when you dont. It is fun to sit back and watch you two.
Bruce you are too predictable and easy to spot, but you get credit for trying.
You are right. Why do we hide? Again, though: We were discussing taking a tax deduction for AEG as a medical expense. If you can deter yourself from trying to turn this into a flame war. You represent Aspen and you are behaving like you need a good dose of Aspen's "treatment", whatever the hell that is.
Your Bruce and I have no connection to Aspen or this guy Reuben. I am just having fun with you. We all know that the tax deductions are good, even if it is child care. We could all say we are democrats and just forgot and say we will adjust for it next year!!! lol
Again you must be a dedicated short form user. You know not what you are speaking about.
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As for accusing RobertBruce of being the anonymous poster, it wasn't. It was me and I'm not him. Don't let Reuben turn this into a petty flame war, as he's prone to do when he's lost the argument on the merits, as has happened in this thread for the umpteenth time.
Awww, are we a little upset that I spotted your style, RB? We can pretend that it wasn’t you and that you really spent 2 years in a program instead of the couple of weeks that is on your record at HLA. I still recognize you as a survivor even thought the only abuse you incurred was self inflicted. It is still considered abuse, right?
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Aspen isn't even child care. There's no deduction for voluntary payment of room and board for someone else to take your kid off your hands, sorry. And this has already been reported to the IRS. I gave them a complete list of Aspen programs, plus the case number of the Pence case where they admit to offering no treatment. I hope they catch a whole bunch of these tax cheat, shiftless parents and that I get a 10% cut of all of the recovered back-taxes (the "snitch premium" at the IRS).
And for you to say you have no connection to Aspen or Reuben is a joke. Even if you were not Reuben, you are an Aspen advocate and so is he. One degree of separation there, same network. Of course we all know you ARE Reuben, so it's really zero degrees.
I'm still not Robert, no matter how much you stamp your feet, idiot boy.
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Why don't you guys alert all the insurance companies and the IRS? Then they can sort it all out. :deal:
I am sure they would love an excuse to deny payment and to audit. :seg:
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As for accusing RobertBruce of being the anonymous poster, it wasn't. It was me and I'm not him. Don't let Reuben turn this into a petty flame war, as he's prone to do when he's lost the argument on the merits, as has happened in this thread for the umpteenth time.
Awww, are we a little upset that I spotted your style, RB? We can pretend that it wasn’t you and that you really spent 2 years in a program instead of the couple of weeks that is on your record at HLA. I still recognize you as a survivor even thought the only abuse you incurred was self inflicted. It is still considered abuse, right?
Fuck you Cindy, you child killer. That information about me was covered by HIPAA and Function Junction gave that to you illegally and you didnt have the balls to come forward because you are a coward. Go back under the rock where you came from.
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As for accusing RobertBruce of being the anonymous poster, it wasn't. It was me and I'm not him. Don't let Reuben turn this into a petty flame war, as he's prone to do when he's lost the argument on the merits, as has happened in this thread for the umpteenth time.
Awww, are we a little upset that I spotted your style, RB? We can pretend that it wasn’t you and that you really spent 2 years in a program instead of the couple of weeks that is on your record at HLA. I still recognize you as a survivor even thought the only abuse you incurred was self inflicted. It is still considered abuse, right?
Fuck you Cindy, you child killer. That information about me was covered by HIPAA and Function Junction gave that to you illegally and you didnt have the balls to come forward because you are a coward. Go back under the rock where you came from.
Sting!! Sting!!! (using the word coward still brings back memories of your time in HLA?) You need to get your guest posts strung together before we can move forward. Accountability has always been difficult for you but it is time to hold your feet to the fire.
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Lols. You gotta love it when TheWho plays both the victim and the jerk. He's so out of whack about all this negative publicity he'll do anything to try to make it stop. Only it won't. You can squirm and wiggle, Whooter, but Aspen will still be held accountable for their false advertising, not providing treatment and cheating on their taxes. That's the point of this thread, not you channeling Robert so you can howl at "his" taunts.
Confirmation Code (author is now belly-laughing): OTSPAM. TheWho tries and tries to spam this away, but here it is.
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Lols. You gotta love it when TheWho plays both the victim and the jerk. He's so out of whack about all this negative publicity he'll do anything to try to make it stop. Only it won't. You can squirm and wiggle, Whooter, but Aspen will still be held accountable for their false advertising, not providing treatment and cheating on their taxes. That's the point of this thread, not you channeling Robert so you can howl at "his" taunts.
Confirmation Code (author is now belly-laughing): OTSPAM. TheWho tries and tries to spam this away, but here it is.
If you could have resisted using the word "coward" I dont think he would have recognized you. It was just a guess until then, RB. Some of your phases give you away but you are the only one that calls him a coward.
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If you could have resisted using the word "coward" I dont think he would have recognized you.
Hee. One word makes it a style? Do you have multiple personalities or are you the second shift who surrogate? You're a lonely turd, John.
Anyway, the IRS could challenge the deductions taken by most parents for any program, citing the "treatment" provided is not within recognized standards of care and not allowable.
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If you could have resisted using the word "coward" I dont think he would have recognized you.
Hee. One word makes it a style? Do you have multiple personalities or are you the second shift who surrogate? You're a lonely turd, John.
Anyway, the IRS could challenge the deductions taken by most parents for any program, citing the "treatment" provided is not within recognized standards of care and not allowable.
Sorry Bruce, but you were outed. Stop crying about it. Now on to the other issue.
The IRS can challenge anyone they want ...always had always will. But what you need to look at is the "snap shot in time",meaning at the time the deduction was taken was it acceptable and valid. If, for example, a charitable institute is found to be funding money to by weapons for the enemy then the principal members will be arrested and charged. All the money will be frozen. But the millions of people who donated, thinking it was to help cancer or legitimate, will still be able to keep their deductions. But not going forward.
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If you could have resisted using the word "coward" I dont think he would have recognized you.
Hee. One word makes it a style? Do you have multiple personalities or are you the second shift who surrogate? You're a lonely turd, John.
Anyway, the IRS could challenge the deductions taken by most parents for any program, citing the "treatment" provided is not within recognized standards of care and not allowable.
Sorry Bruce, but you were outed. Stop crying about it. Now on to the other issue.
The IRS can challenge anyone they want ...always had always will. But what you need to look at is the "snap shot in time",meaning at the time the deduction was taken was it acceptable and valid. If, for example, a charitable institute is found to be funding money to by weapons for the enemy then the principal members will be arrested and charged. All the money will be frozen. But the millions of people who donated, thinking it was to help cancer or legitimate, will still be able to keep their deductions. But not going forward.
There is no "snapshot in time" for the IRS. They will go back in time and the deduction is not and never has been allowable. You can make your noise and defenses all you want - we've heard your noise for four years. You've not been able to stop program survivors from speaking out. Despite your obsession with protecting and promoting the industry, it is failing due to public awareness. Perhaps it is your marketing background that makes it impossible for you to accept defeat. The lengths you have gone to are disgusting. Marketing Aspen is one thing, marketing a son who died is an atrocity.
FACT: Parents are told their kids could end up "dead or in jail" without the program.
FACT: Mike Reuben spent extensive time in...not treatment obviously but caught up in AEG...and he died all the same. The program failed and John D. Reuben wants to sell non-treatment to parents of kids with mental issues like his son had and died from. There is the real mental illness.
It's like Aaron Bacon's mom being confronted by angry program mamas, claiming the program was successful and she should shut up. When Mrs. Bacon asked one of the moms how her "successful" child was doing she was informed he suicided.
No sense in it, John. Hey, I'm Robert Bruce. We're all Robert Bruce. You're a coward.
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Parents are told their kids could end up "dead or in jail" without the program.
Luckily some of them listen and get their kids help, but 1,500 kids commit suicide each year who didn’t have the benefit of a program. So there is still work to do.
You dont need to tell me, we all know you are Bruce, now get to work getting those guest posts strung together!!
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Parents are told their kids could end up "dead or in jail" without the program.
Luckily some of them listen and get their kids help, but 1,500 kids commit suicide each year who didn’t have the benefit of a program. So there is still work to do.
You dont need to tell me, we all know you are Bruce, now get to work getting those guest posts strung together!!
"Bruce" has more important things to do than jump through hoops for a sociopath. Dumb logic, pal. 1500 kids committing suicide without the "benefit" of a program? It seems the "benefit" did nothing for your son. Again, the Bacon reference holds up. You promote that which you know firsthand failed horribly. Discussion of suicides among the unfortunates without your "benefit" doesn't have any bearing on a discussion about your "beneficial" programs.
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Parents are told their kids could end up "dead or in jail" without the program.
Luckily some of them listen and get their kids help, but 1,500 kids commit suicide each year who didn’t have the benefit of a program. So there is still work to do.
You dont need to tell me, we all know you are Bruce, now get to work getting those guest posts strung together!!
"Bruce" has more important things to do .......
You are still here so obviously not. Poor attempt in deflection (3/10)
Oh no my kids are Dead? and I thought they were in school!!! Its awful having to find out these things on fornits... Can anyone tell me how my wife is doing? We are suppose to see a movie tonight.
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Can anyone tell me how my wife is doing?
I can. She's fucking three of your friends simultaneously while you do damage control for a fraudulent program.
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:bump:
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