Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Elan School => Topic started by: Dee Verry on October 21, 2003, 12:34:00 AM
-
I bring no shame on myself.Shame for what?For sharing my memories and knowing right from wrong.I have more compassion for the other souls you tried to destroy. all I watched and lived through. You both beleive your good and its all in the name of helping children.Where did you get your Degree,Marty and Jeff? See you have been there so long you beleive your good and we are mental.I am very much alive and well.I would not have nor will I give you the satisfaction.Remeber jennifer S?I do, how was it you were helping her?making her beleive she would drown in your lake gasping for air and unable to move because you had her tied up like a mummy.Hey did you get that from a movie?Well, I didn't enjoy the show and you lept having repeats of the same ABUSE.yes guys thats ABUSE!Remember, all that read this.This learning experence and ,thats what it was called. was giving to her BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT SHE WAS ACTING CRAZY.Remember the DOG HOUSE wonderful staff that you were.Yet another wonderful learning experence for her.This time she got to live in the dog house on the stage everyone Had to bark at her.GEEZ that was so helpful for her mind.I'm making soup and its late.You all are abusers and so twisted.HEY, news flash for you both ,out here in the real world it's healthy to relate honestly and very healthy to write.(writing your feelings down on paper?)knock on this fucking door!your words not mine.Never ever say we bring shame upon our selves.It's a statement that you think by telling your self will help you with your guilt!THATS REALITY FOLKS.
[ This Message was edited by: Dee Verry on 2003-10-21 06:41 ]
-
It"s very late and these two individuals make me frustrated have no desire to correct Grammer and spelling.
All in the name of Therapy.
With our eagerness of spirit we shall no longer dwell on the unreal or unattainabal we must strive towards our positve goal.
What goes around comes around and it's all coming around on you.
You said it different though guys.This is how it went in your very sane world that you beleive you greated for the good of childeren.It will make us all so strong.Society with in a society.They will never understand our ways out there.Yours is not to question why,yours is just to do or DIE!
STAND RIGHT THERE MOTHER FUCKERRRRRRRRRR
WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND IT'S ALLLLLL COMING AROUND ON YOU MOTHER FUCKER.GET THE FUCK OUT!
IT ALL COMES OUT IN THE WASH.
[ This Message was edited by: Dee Verry on 2003-10-21 06:52 ]
-
I wanted to say that the language is there's thats how we were addressed.As children we were taught to exspress and vent our feelings with there own language.There were examples set down for us and,it was demanded to follow the leader.You would pay a price if you didn't.Act as if or die!
-
Way to go Dee. Keep it up!
Paul
-
The Elan School was in Maine? To me it seems strange that there would be so much "ghetto-style" cussing coming from this seemingly placid state way up in the nether-regions. How many black people live in Maine, maybe 50? :lol: But seriously, folks...how did that cussing make its way all the way up to Maine? (if this is in fact where Elan was)
-
Elan was in Maine. Most of the people in Elan were from oter places.
So shut the fuck up!
-
if this is in fact where elan was.
What the fuk is that supposed to mean froderik?
SyN
-
So shut the fuck up!
Ok, Ok...now I get it..jeez..
What the fuk is that supposed to mean froderik?
It wasn't supposed to mean anything; I wasn't 100% sure that it was in Maine, or if that was the only existing branch. So I was just checking...Man you all really do like to cuss, y'all make me seem like a saint, lol.
-
You are a saint Froderick
-
On 2003-10-21 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Way to go Dee. Keep it up!
Paul"
didn t write this.
Paul St. John
-
ok it was in maine and it was there way.what does ghetto??? have to do with anything
[ This Message was edited by: Dee Verry on 2003-10-21 16:46 ]
-
what does ghetto??? have to do with anything
By this I meant "ghetto-style" cussing. Nothing more. I didn't realize that Elan imported their victims from elsewhere, so I couldn't make sense out of how what I thought were a bunch of kids from Maine could get so down-and-dirty. I see now that this was maybe a little short-sighted on my part. Other programs (like the one I was in) brought kids in from out of state, so maybe I could have considered this possibility. Shoot me. But I'm still curious as to how the "cussing therapy" thing got started in Elan...in other words, whose idea was it to begin with? Where did it originate?
>>FR13
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-10-21 18:19 ]
-
frod..
elan thought it was good therapy to make us get our feelings off at each other to end hostility. Getting or feelings off consisted of swearing and screaming at each other during group time. or during a general meeting. A general meeting was like one huge group against one individual. You get general meetings for a variety of different reasons. ranging from goofing off, you know acting like a kid, to fukn a girl in the bathroom cause you got so much baby batter in you its popping out of your fukn eye balls.
but they felt it was a good way to handle our day to day problems. Then their were haircuts, and had nothing to do with your hair. For small rule infractions a group of 4 would yell at you for whatever lil things another kid booked (narcd) you for. Lil things mainly. like not washing the dishes fast enough or rippin a fart during dinner.
The program was based aroung cussin each other out. dont know how it was supposed to help really, but at least i can ream some one a new asshole if i have too.
-
To Froderik I had company and read it wrong,sorry.I honestly don't know how or where it started.The program Day top was were Joe had gone before he opened Elan with Dr stupid.I think the staff liked it is all, they thought it sounded more intence and scary.have a good nite and again sorry for the mix up.
-
Froderik,
The basic daily routine was different in a couple of ways and the lingo was different, but with a lot of synonyms.
Instead of sitting in group 12 hours a day and going to host homes, they did just a couple of meetings a day and the rest of the time did responsibilities. Newcomers had the shit jobs, then there was kitchen, there were expediters who spied and snitched, I suppose it was a lot like being a 5th phaser.
I've been learning some of the lingo. Some of it translates easily and directly to Straightling, some doesn't.
Contract = Cliquing (not "clicking", dman it!) Like, fer instance, looking the wrong way at someone, negative comments about the program.
Spread your action = No contact with the person you had a contract with (no newcomers talking to newcomers)
Shot down = Like a startover, but no pretense of having to do with time.
reentry = final phase (reentry into society)
House = Group
Haircut = Short confrontontation by small group in seperate room
House meeting = Confrontated in Group
Pull up = stood up
Bad rapping = saying verboten things
Guilt concept = having bad thoughts
book = chain of command
India Indicas, Mr. Peabody?
-- Sherman
-
Contract = Cliquing (not "clicking", dman it!) Like, fer instance, looking the wrong way at someone, negative comments about the program.
close, a contract was two or more people breaking one, or several rules Together. i>e me n nazi joking around makes us a goofing contract. or if we were planning to split we were a split contract.
Spread your action = No contact with the person you had a contract with (no newcomers talking to newcomers)
i dont know about this, but new kids didnt talk without strength being aware of the conversation. Strength being a level of expeditor or above at a trusted position.
Shot down = Like a startover, but no pretense of having to do with time.
shotdowns only had time. Time to scrub floors for days months some even years on end. I knew many who scrubbed their time away there.
im sure most is the same everywhere its just the people who enforce the program that make it. Elan was definetly peer related, to the point they enjoyed no one trusting anyone (at a peer level). If you were lucky you made some real friends you could trust.
Definetly a jail house mentality. I couldnt play spades though. no cards or anything like that, i bet they would have banned chutes n ladders if some one brought it with them.
SyN
-
On 2003-10-21 23:39:00, MrSyNiStEr wrote:
"
Contract = Cliquing (not "clicking", dman it!) Like, fer instance, looking the wrong way at someone, negative comments about the program.
close, a contract was two or more people breaking one, or several rules Together. i>e me n nazi joking around makes us a goofing contract. or if we were planning to split we were a split contract.
Yeah, exactly. Letting each other get away with breaking rules or smiling at each other in group or talking out in group. Different grammer, that's all. Instead of having a split contract, we were cliquing about splitting.
Spread your action = No contact with the person you had a contract with (no newcomers talking to newcomers)
i dont know about this, but new kids didnt talk without strength being aware of the conversation. Strength being a level of expeditor or above at a trusted position.
With us it was no nukes talk to eachother ever. And you could get started over and be a nuke again at the drop of a hat. "No turning your back on your newcomer" was a seperate rule. Every moment an oldcomer had to have direct eye contact with the nukes. I suppose Strength would be like fifth phasers or maybe staff trainees. Was reentry a different level or a different thing than expediter and strength?
Shot down = Like a startover, but no pretense of having to do with time.
shotdowns only had time. Time to scrub floors for days months some even years on end. I knew many who scrubbed their time away there.
No, I mean newcomer was supposedly the first phase of the program. Was supposed to last like a month or two, but often lasted 6 months or more, over a year for some people. We weren't allowed to lift a finger or even walk accross a room without someone hanging onto the back of our pants. Scrubbing toilets or running messages for staff or helping with lunch were prividges which we called responsibilities. One of those responsibilities for upper phasers was to guard the doors during raps and open meetings.
im sure most is the same everywhere its just the people who enforce the program that make it. Elan was definetly peer related, to the point they enjoyed no one trusting anyone (at a peer level). If you were lucky you made some real friends you could trust.
Definetly a jail house mentality. I couldnt play spades though. no cards or anything like that, i bet they would have banned chutes n ladders if some one brought it with them.
SyN
"
The basic slight of mind is the same. The props are different. Instead of sitting in group all day, they had you busy on all those tasks. But the snitch culture sounds just the same.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
-
SYN
That was funny,Chutes n ladders.nice wake up!
-
Guess I had a contract.Lorretta. I often think about you.Thank you for frezzing a piece of my birthday cake.That night coming back from hell.That lock up was sooooooo beyond sick and twisted,thought David was really going to kill me, or put me up stairs were he let me peek in.You want to be in there Verry?I said no!Standing there covered in wet cloths and shaving cream and the tampons all haning in my face.I remember a kid tied to the poll in his underware and the smell was awful.The cake was tasty and I was at ease to back in poland and far away from bear moutain.wow you would have gottenKILLED for that.hope your well and happy I am.
-
-
I was remembering David and it blows my mind I'm shaking,I wrote so much and my hands hit the key board and lost it all.Dame I have to start over.
BEAR MOUTAIN was in waterford I was sent there for reacting to no phone call to my dad.I was not conforming to there ways.I was 14 and I wanted my father,thats all I new.
I was always getting tours in the suller to freak me out and water constantly being dumped on me.David had men often drag me down to the men"s dorm and hold me under the cold shower.I would screem it hurt.I was always in wet cloths and lots and lots of tampons now.I could not see. KNOCK ON YOUR 14 TAMPON! I would take my hands and have to count them.I was told I was a dirty pig.Dame this is DEEP! Taking a TIME OUT,LISTEN TO SOMTHING PEACEFULL!oh,AND THE OUT FIT,WAS SHORT SHORTS AND A RIFEL MADE OF WOOD HAD TO MARCH AROUND THE DINNING ROOM AT MEAL TIME.SHACK YOUR ASS VERRY.WHAT A SIGHT I MUST HAVE BEEN!SHAVING CREAM PARYYYYYYY.HE WAS ILL.
-
Well,I guess your still in my soul,how sucky the brain keeps tapes you fucked with my self asteam and my worth,thanks so much you wonderfu; fuckin ELAN. lets help the children .I am sad today but I made it.you sick f men.I am also having a cry I STOOD in front of david GMtampons dippeded in ketchup and I could not see to count ,but count I had to you sick ass.DOES ANY MAN HAVE THE BALLS TO PISS ON HER?I thought I would die I was no wayyyyyy!and tes wayyyyyyyyyy (all women turn your heads) I was layed over two chairs and held down.DOES ANY MAN HAVE THE BALLS TO PISS ON THIS BITCH? and it happened I was pissed on and I reacted! flewwwwwwwwww off the chairand died for reacting,but you never killed me David.
-
I was sent to your house DAVID SO THEY COuld COME OUT SICK OM ME see that was it!They were living in hell and new I would go bck and they had to stay!living in wet clothes and tampons covered in ketchup I was fuckedddddddddddddd! and I so lost it, I broke a window and was yelling for my dad and them I got fucked with for that!David put boxing cloves on my hands and yess it was hard to wipe.and he punched me in my head and said ohhh poor baby wants to die!sick fuck! burn in hellllllllllll! and you are lollol heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy sick fuckers come fuck with me TODAY!I think not but,hey give it a bing bing,wish you luck.you torcher4ed me and I live with your phisical results,fuck spelling tonight!
and FUCK YOU JOE DR> KEN JEFF MARTY PETER and all the rest.I am an angry bitch tonight because you all live in a lie!so burn in HELLLLLLLL lierssssss
-
IN A WORD FUCK YOU! you sick twisted person,Joe is dead ! lol your god is Dead and I am living and I am strong!and I will post everything and guess what there are still plenty alive to support me.YOUR IS NOT TO QUESTION WHY
-
You are doing great Dee. Keep it up.
Paul
-
Hey I was posing about David I am not only still physical effected I am soooooooooo cold I'm shaking can't post right now,
-
Thanks paul I am fine just going through something I guess. Thanks for the supprot dude.
Peace out1
-
Watch me walk. sick fuck .you physicaly recked my spine . you destroyed me!Medical NEGLECT you stupid mother fuckerHow sick you Men are and still are!!To look at me?most would say wow,she is pritty I don't look like I have disabilities,look close amd get past the face,I was fucked!MEDICAL NEGLECT,and emotinonal and......................................I am posting pictures of your damage,what goes around mother fucker!am I angry today ?bet your asssss I am.I am in it!YOU STAND
RIGHT THERE YOU MOTHER!
The reason your standing there is ?You refuse to accept the reality,the reality is your abusive .
-
Go to Hell Martyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
-
THE REALITY ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS GOINGGGGGGGGGGGGGG DOWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.YOU EFFECTED ME TODAY I NEW IT WAS COMEING,I KNOW ME.
HEY JANE REMEMBER WHEN YOU WERE FOR WOMENS RIGHTS? yOU WERE SENT TO BEAR MOUNTAIN ? NEW A gm WAS GOING TO BE CALLED,JUST DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS FOR ME.I DIED THAT DAY,THAT WAS THE TURNING POINT,REMEMBER WHEN i GOT PISTED ON? tHAT WAS SO HELPFUL IN MY PROGRAM THANKS eLAN I REALLY LEARNED ALOT.I AM SO GRATEFUL FOR ALL YOUR ABUSE. :wave:
-
Maybe what you say is true, I don't know. As a recent graduate I know Elan is not like that any more. Marty is one of the most repected people on campus now. It is an honor to have him run a group for you or take you on a walk. I have heard stories that things were different back then. But I feel it is an injustice not to state how it is today.
-
I AM STRONG THOUGH I WILL BE SO TOGETHER .DAVID ELDERD MAKES ME TO THIS DAY FUCKED UP!HE DID A NUMBER ON ME.
-
It's funny though at 14 years old I wa sitting on the floor eating and,he walked up to me and said,you seem content?I said I am,I'm use to it!Really? pack your trunk your out of here.That was hell on earth it's 7 at night and I started this shit this morning.I never went to deep and fuck you who say I am sniviling fuck you big time!
-
At 10:15 A.M. on Thursday, August 23rd, 1973 the "Sveriges Kreditbank" of Stockholm, Sweden was rocked by sub-machine gun fire.(1) "The party has just begun", announced a 32 year old prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson. "The party", indeed, continued for some 131 hours, or five and a half days, as Olsson held four of the bank's employees hostage in an 11 by 47 foot vault until late in the evening of August 28th.
While the "Sveriges Kreditbank" robbery itself may not have been of world shattering importance, later interviews with the four hostages yielded surprising results -- results that have been confirmed in numerous other "hostage situations" in the years that followed. Even though the captives themselves were not able to explain it, they displayed a strange association with their captors, identifying with them while fearing those who sought to end their captivity. In some cases they later testified on behalf of or raised money for the legal defense of their captors. The Swedish location of the "Sveriges Kreditbank" gave its name to this mental aberration as "The Stockholm Syndrome".
Long-term psychological study of this and similar hostage situations has defined a fairly clear and characteristic set of symptoms for the Stockholm Syndrome:
The captives begin to identify with their captors. At least at first this is a defensive mechanism, based on the (often unconscious) idea that the captor will not hurt the captive if he is cooperative and even positively supportive. The captive seeks to win the favor of the captor in an almost childlike way.
The captive often realizes that action taken by his would-be rescuers is very likely to hurt him instead of obtaining his release. Attempts at rescue may turn a presently tolerable situation into a lethal one. If the bullets of the authorities don't get him, quite possibly those of the provoked captor will.
Long term captivity builds even stronger attachment to the captor as he becomes known as a human being with his own problems and aspirations. Particularly in political or ideological situations, longer captivity also allows the captive to become familiar with the captor's point of view and the history of his grievances against authority. He may come to believe that the captor's position is just.
The captive seeks to distance himself emotionally from the situation by denial that it is actually taking place. He fancies that "it is all a dream", or looses himself in excessive periods of sleep, or in delusions of being magically rescued. He may try to forget the situation by engaging in useless but time consuming "busy work". Depending on his degree of identification with the captor he may deny that the captor is at fault, holding that the would-be rescuers and their insistence on punishing the captor are really to blame for his situation.
Full Text: http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/stockholm.html (http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/stockholm.html)
Remember that Marty got on staff the only way you can in a synanon; by going through the program.
By continuing to defend and cover up eachother's past crimes, these folks also harbour the ability to do the same things again, just in more subtle ways.
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
-
GO FUCK YOUR SELF,YOU LIER!maybe he wanted to get you in the Teepee?Thats off the fffffff wall!
if it was so good for you why you here?don't fuck with me.and screw I am in no mood for you
-
Elan is not like that anymore?got your mouth full of cock?go away you stupid excuse for a human being. but,it was ok long ago.you little f screw off,why you here? just an other enoying magot for me to deal with,go to Aluni you thinks its so cool.WHY YOU HERE?
-
HEY NAZI,Marty is respected LMAO this chic needs a GM she or he ,sounds like a bitch,why she here sticking up for that fagot?and Marty you are week and yo
OH JUST GOT IT! Its him or staff ,you can't reply to my post cause I got you on the truth?
GOT GUILT COP TO IT MOTHER FUCKER!
-
Hey you almost got me Elan supporters lmao I am smarter than the avarge bear though.Good try.
IT ALL COMES OUT IN THE WASH
-
so that makes it ok hey nazi,he takes them for walks.WAIT A MINUTE HERE! Marty your having people post that sounded like I'm sorry I'm better today,way cool in around about way you replyed to my post,you no your guilty and thats why that was posted.COOLLLLLLL
-
HEY HERE IS ONE
FUCK AROUND FUCK AROUND AND SOON YOU WON"T BE AROUD! so fffff sick lmao
-
Maybe what you say is true,you sound younger than my son,please don't enoy me with your bullshit,If you were so sure than why did you say maybe and then say he's cool today you don't know about years ago.FUCK OFF OFF STAFF
-
Why are you so angry at me, Dee? I am just stating how elan is today. I wasn't around in the 70s and im sure it was different. I know Elan saved my life. I would not be the successful, strong, independant woman I am today if it wasn't for Marty, Clare, and the other staff and directors who gave me the opportunity to be successful. I have nothing to do with the staff and directors. Personally I disagreed with some things they said and did, but thats life. I feel sorry for you that your experience in Elan was so negative, and hope that one day you can move past it.
-
On 2003-10-22 14:35:00, Dee Verry wrote:
"Thanks paul I am fine just going through something I guess. Thanks for the supprot dude.
Peace out1"
Dee, I am glad that you are doing good, but I
didn t right that. I odn t knwo who did, or why. If I post to you, I will use my name, so that you know it is me.
My best,
Paul St. John
-
On 2003-10-22 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why are you so angry at me, Dee? I am just stating how elan is today. I wasn't around in the 70s and im sure it was different. I know Elan saved my life. I would not be the successful, strong, independant woman I am today if it wasn't for Marty, Clare, and the other staff and directors who gave me the opportunity to be successful. I have nothing to do with the staff and directors. Personally I disagreed with some things they said and did, but thats life. I feel sorry for you that your experience in Elan was so negative, and hope that one day you can move past it."
Who the fuck are you, ass hole?
Now, to take you point for point a bit..
You feel that it is an injustice not to mention how it is today, well then say it all you want.. It s an open board.
2 I don't really think that Elan saves anybody's life.
Quote: Personally I disagreed with some things they said and did, but thats life.
Now that's not life.. Life is not being subjected to the will of others when you disagree with them.. That my friend is the opposite of life!!!
Quote: I feel sorry for you that your experience in Elan was so negative, and hope that one day you can move past it.
and yet you defend them, and tell the victim that hope that SHE can move past it.
Fuck you!
Paul St. John
-
Im sorry if you misunderstood me. When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things. Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature. As a whole I agree with the program. I didn't have it easy there at all. I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember. But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.
Paul, you never went to Elan. Elan does not save lives, you are right. Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives. I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan. Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things. I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan.
-
On 2003-10-22 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why are you so angry at me, Dee? I am just stating how elan is today. I wasn't around in the 70s and im sure it was different. I know Elan saved my life. I would not be the successful, strong, independant woman I am today if it wasn't for Marty, Clare, and the other staff and directors who gave me the opportunity to be successful. I have nothing to do with the staff and directors. Personally I disagreed with some things they said and did, but thats life. I feel sorry for you that your experience in Elan was so negative, and hope that one day you can move past it."
I can't speak for Dee. But I can tell you why I used to practically lose my grip whenever I came accross people saying about Straight just about exactly what you're saying about Elan.
For one thing, there was a time when I was saying the same things. Abuse? What abuse? I never saw any kind of abuse. Everyone who got humiliated or hurt in some way brought it on themselves. And, of course, there's this spoken or unspoken rule of confidentiality taken to extremes that prevents people who want to remain in good standing from discussing any of it among themselves or, especially, with outlanders in any but glowing terms.
Imagine you used to belong to the the Manson Family, maybe against your will, maybe not. Years later, the memory of what this guy did to the inside of your mind and the outside of your body and other people in front of you still freak you the fuck out at times. Now, imagine if, instead of serving natural life w/o parole, Charles Manson were mayor of some small town somewhere. Still with access to little kids, getting paid big bucks and smiling for the cameras like a hero.
Now do you understand why some people might find it infuriating and frightening that these particular people have a following of young kids?
Girl, Elan didn't save your life. You have no way of knowing what would have happened without Elan because it didn't happen. No one knows or can say. I can tell you that an awful lot of people subjected to essentially the same behavior modification methods have come out of it a bit twitchy.
- A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.
- But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.
--A Patriot
-
LMAO Why are you in here?telling us how wonderful Elan made your life.you sick fuckin bitch.your not even a resident or a graduate.
NICE TRY MARTYYYYYY your so sweat and will you honor me,PLEASE I AM SOOOOOOOOO GOOD MARTYYYYYY TAKE ME FOR A WALK
what the FUCK IS THIS SHIT?
-
On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Im sorry if you misunderstood me. When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things. Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature. As a whole I agree with the program. I didn't have it easy there at all. I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember. But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.
Paul, you never went to Elan. Elan does not save lives, you are right. Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives. I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan. Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things. I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."
I just don't buy it, and I am also wonderring if you are the same person who keeps posting to Dee as me. .. just wonderring is all..
But again...
On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.
Are you sorry that I said " Fuck You! "
When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things. Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.
You would have to be pretty petty to disagree with that, and have no problem with everything else that went on there
As a whole I agree with the program. I didn't have it easy there at all. I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember. But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.
Whoever you are.. don't you know by now that I am smarter then that.
For any intelligent person, who is reading this check it...
You jump off a house, maybe you will get hurt as a result of your actions.
The use of initiatory force on the other hand is unnatural and immoral, and we are not responsible for haqrm caused to us, because someone else sees it as fit
Paul, you never went to Elan.
Yeah.. You guys bring that up a lot .. don't ya?
Elan does not save lives, you are right.
even though I have never been there? lol
Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.
That's not the story I hear.. LMAO!
I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.
Well, my gathering of facts has led me to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who are dead, or in a psych ward because they went to Elan.
Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.
I think you are a bullshit artist.. I think you are staff.. I think you started the threads about me.. I think that you are fucking with Dee... I think that you pretend to be me, and post to her, in an attempt to control her, and perhaps burn her out, before she gets all her truth out, and I think that when all else failed, you are now trying to play on our emotions.. because you know that we are actually decent people, unlike yourself.
I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."
and the Academy Award goes to....
Paul
P.S. I am sorry to hear that you had to spend so much time in the ring, but I was under the impression that Elan didn't the ring too much anymore.. Didn't you say that you were of the recent, new and improved Elan?
-
On 2003-10-22 23:00:00, Paul St. John wrote:
"
On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Im sorry if you misunderstood me. When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things. Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature. As a whole I agree with the program. I didn't have it easy there at all. I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember. But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.
Paul, you never went to Elan. Elan does not save lives, you are right. Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives. I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan. Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things. I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."
I just don't buy it, and I am also wonderring if you are the same person who keeps posting to Dee as me. .. just wonderring is all..
But again...
On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.
Are you sorry that I said " Fuck You! "
When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things. Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.
You would have to be pretty petty to disagree with that, and have no problem with everything else that went on there
As a whole I agree with the program. I didn't have it easy there at all. I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember. But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.
Whoever you are.. don't you know by now that I am smarter then that.
For any intelligent person, who is reading this check it...
You jump off a house, maybe you will get hurt as a result of your actions.
The use of initiatory force on the other hand is unnatural and immoral, and we are not responsible for haqrm caused to us, because someone else sees it as fit
Paul, you never went to Elan.
Yeah.. You guys bring that up a lot .. don't ya?
Elan does not save lives, you are right.
even though I have never been there? lol
Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.
That's not the story I hear.. LMAO!
I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.
Well, my gathering of facts has led me to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who are dead, or in a psych ward because they went to Elan.
Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.
I think you are a bullshit artist.. I think you are staff.. I think you started the threads about me.. I think that you are fucking with Dee... I think that you pretend to be me, and post to her, in an attempt to control her, and perhaps burn her out, before she gets all her truth out, and I think that when all else failed, you are now trying to play on our emotions.. because you know that we are actually decent people, unlike yourself.
I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."
and the Academy Award goes to....
Paul
P.S. I am sorry to hear that you had to spend so much time in the ring, but I was under the impression that Elan didn't the ring too much anymore.. Didn't you say that you were of the recent, new and improved Elan?
"
-
hmm a recent graduate,, female,, went in the ring,, did they give u a chest protector?/
-
Hmmm
I was wrong :roll:
They do still use the ring, huh? LOL
Paul
-
They don't still use the ring. That stopped about three years ago.
-
You are doing great Dee. Keep exposing all your feelings about what Elan did to you. It will set you free. I am proud of you.
Paul
-
On 2003-10-23 04:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They don't still use the ring. That stopped about three years ago."
You're welcome. :wink:If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
-
Please shut the fuck up!Elan saved my life and I ow so much,I felt like that once,too. thats why your out!can only graduate once your brianwashed and thats what you are brainwashed.god help me I am a nice person but,I can't stand you,you make me so ill to my stomack.
-
On 2003-10-23 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are doing great Dee. Keep exposing all your feelings about what Elan did to you. It will set you free. I am proud of you.
Paul"
Once again...
This asshole posting is not me.
Paul St. John
-
Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are. Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you. From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses. Remeber the positive stuff. If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself. I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him. But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site.
-
On 2003-10-23 15:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are. Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you. From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses. Remeber the positive stuff. If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself. I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him. But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site."
What? Do you monitor this site? How do you always manage to post right after me?
" and at EAXACTLY MIDNIGHT, GOSH DARNIT" :roll: :wink: :lol:
Now, let's take a look at what you said.. Dee, can no doubt take of herself, but I'd like a shot at you as well...
On 2003-10-23 15:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are. Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you.
From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses.
Look, I wasn't there, but my guess is that the experience was only positive when compared to the hell hole of a house, that she was in before it, and not against what one might consider an ideal life. I am dying to know who you are
Remeber the positive stuff. If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself.
There is of course value in taking the good that you can from any situation. That's the rational thing to do... I haven t noticed anyone on this site speaking againts that. I am certainly all for it...
But still the degradation was a part of the reality of the program and will be acknowledged by any honest person .. You may choose to ignore it, but it is still there. You are attempting to instruct another human being to deny that she was degraded, or just treat it as not a big deal. Apparently, being degraded is not a big deal to you. To me that is disgusting. To the all the most valuable people in this world, that is also disgusting.
I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him. But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site."
I think that there is some value in what you said here, but people can vent wherever they want, and also, as I understand from my conversations with Dee, she finds happiness in the idea that she is letting the truth out. These places still exist, and she is saying what they did to her.. not to the people who did it, but to everyone who is interested.
Paul St. John
-
Anon, straight up, serious question. How do you know you're not brainwashed? What does brainwashing mean when you say it? When I say it, I mean Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform, which you can read here
http://ncafe.com/northkorea/LiftonThoug ... iteria.htm (http://ncafe.com/northkorea/LiftonThoughtReformCriteria.htm)
You should know that all of us have been through programs that use a lot of these basic techniques. For me, Matt, Dee and John, it's been years. Matt and Dee knew eachother years ago from Elan, but until a few days ago, never spoke in the mean time. I don't think any of us has ever met John except through these forums. And I've only met Matt once over breakfast with my kid and another adult at a busy conference. Aside from that I've never met Matt or Dee, only spoken on the phone a few times.
There is no way that any of us have enough control over eachothers lives or environments to carry it off if any of us wanted to. You, otoh, just got out of a long stay in an environment that's intentionally perfect for it.
Like I said. It takes on to know one. If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
-
unfortunately,, it looks like concept still works.As with a/a,, if you buy the whole package deep enuf, to yourself and your peers,it appears to work.no matter what you wanna call it,brain washed is the word when talkin about elan. they learned there lessons well from the nazis,frued,skinner,, maybe even a dash of charlie.buut ,, with no after care to keep you submerged,it aint gonna last.,,
-
I just wanna say that I agree with Antigen.
I have never met John outside of these forums, either.
Wait a second.. hmmm.. I've never met John inside these forums, either..
Who the fuck is John? :lol:
PAUL St. John
-
Dame! I was a tad angry.To Ken and Peter I am very sorry for putting your names there.Honestly you were both cool to me.I am grateful to you both for getting me out of HELL!It was like at the moment I just put everyone in the same basket.I would also like to state I have no problems to blame on Elan.My life is fine and happy.I have no problems.I have an Issue with sick people running programs that are abusive to children and in sharing some of my shit I was effected in the moment.I was to busy feeling safe at 6,I don't remember? oh never mind.I just came here today to say my anger was deep and I should have not put Ken or Peter in with the rest.At Elan 6.I have no Issues.Elan as a hole should have been shut down.I am happy for you that your stay with marty was a pleasent one ,maybe things do change.I had no right to put you down.
[ This Message was edited by: Dee Verry on 2003-10-24 05:13 ]
-
On 2003-10-23 21:55:00, Paul St. John wrote:
"
I just wanna say that I agree with Antigen.
I have never met John outside of these forums, either.
Wait a second.. hmmm.. I've never met John inside these forums, either..
Who the fuck is John? :lol:
PAUL St. John"
Dyslexics of the world UNTIE!
Sorry `bout that, buddy. Ya'll know who I'm talking about.
What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
Henry Steele Commager, 1947
-
On 2003-10-23 21:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"they learned there lessons well from the nazis,frued,skinner,, maybe even a dash of charlie.buut ,, with no after care to keep you submerged,it aint gonna last.,,"
That seems to be where Ken comes in w/ Elan Alumni. From the bottom of any large organization looking up through the ranks, human greed and stupidity look a lot like a conspiracy.
--S. Gilbert
-
I am true to me,I was just being honest.Ken never came out sick on me either did Peter so i had no right to put them in with the others.I feel the same as I did the other day.Nothing has changed.I am not loyal to anyone.I like to keep it honest though.I never new Ken before 6 and It was peter who basical dealt with me.I am in no way invaladating anyone eles exsperence.In fact would love to read some post hey, I did it and lived through it.That was the point in posting some personal stuff.I want to hear from people.I want this and other programs exsposed for what they are.
-
Hey Art, there is no way its gone for them,hey I was just tring to sleep my life away and wow I was hit with one hell of a memorie.I did not want it,it just was there and my heart goes out to you matt.Can I stuff Elan away yes I am very good at it but, as you can see it will come up and bite me right in the ass.This time for me ,I am going to deal with every part of that sick so called helpful school.It only hurts for while but I intend to be free of that place.I already have faced alot of my fears right here and I feel even physical better Art.Weeks ago I needed help getting out of bed.This week I am taking walks and feel so good to be pain free.So wonder whats up with that? hey I am in heaven to be with out physical pain. peace to you.
[ This Message was edited by: Dee Verry on 2003-10-24 08:45 ]
-
It seems to me that Ken and other Elan apologists go to great lengths to prevent recent graduates from getting to know older graduates too well. The rule seems to be that it's OK to talk about the differences between then and now, between Poland Springs and other houses. But whenever a conversation wanders into the area of those things that have remained consistent over the years and that cross-over to other Synanon based programs, some asshole always comes along and tries to set us all against one another.
Regardless, I'm very interested in the topic. Have been for a number of years and no amount of appapleptic fits on the part of people who don't want anyone else to talk about it will likely quell my interest.
Fuck anyone who tries to tell you what you should or shouldn't read or think or who you may or may not talk to. We're all grown ups here.
Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform
Return to North Korea / Tangled Web home
Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.
Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.
(a brief outline)
MILIEU CONTROL
The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them" Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)
MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)
Extensive personal manipulation Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated Totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative The "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment) The individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others The leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members Legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"
THE DEMAND FOR PURITY
The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) One must continually change or conform to the group "norm" Tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences Once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality The radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual Ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming
CONFESSION
Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself Sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change Is an act of symbolic self-surrender Makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility A person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss Often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position) "The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"
SACRED SCIENCE
The totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence Questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited A reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine Offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology
LOADING THE LANGUAGE
The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers) Repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon "The language of non-thought" Words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase
DOCTRINE OVER PERSON
Every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it The pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly The underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" The experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt One is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil When doubt arises, conflicts become intense
DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE
Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist "Being verses nothingness" Impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed One outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group Fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them The group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.
Excerpted from: Thought Reform And The Psychology of Totalism, Chapter 22, (Chapel Hill, 1989) & The Future of Immortality, Chapter 155 (New York 1987). Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
-
Art shut the fuck up,he does not claim anything of the sort,you twist it.It is a place for grads to say hi..................................hows life today.heal deal what dude????????//are you fucking talking about? Alumni is a cool chat room we are not for Elan by any means and Art you no that.either have a drink or go to a meeting ok,your dry drunk shit is getting old
-
The fucking ??????????????????????
-
If you read this thread ,,,some of Dianes postings and thoughts about what what went on in elan . I remember her very well a really nice person who was really worked over,,,, but any way if you read her postings you will notice that at one point some one posts that Dave Elder is dead and and that she should remember the good things and some stuff about if they(the poster) only remembered the bad they would not see all the insight .
I also want to add that I don't believe anyone was manipulating Diane on this board .It was simply Diane remembering horrible abuse that happened to her and other people while we were there. It is obvious that the poster was the one trying to manipulate Diane to calm down and stop exposing elan's dirty sadistic secrets.
I also remember Jenifer S. being wrapped up in a sheet and dropped in the lake. I remember Jenefer being brutalized in the boxing ring .I remember Jenefer and another girl Mary O' having electric sauce poured over them and then made to lie on the dining room floor wrapped up like mummies with all that electric sauce ,,,a human burritos if you will .Oh the violent sadistic really physically hurtful as well as can you imagine the emotional damage done to these people.
I also think that the style of Dianes posting is remarkable in the way she is recounting the trauma she suffered and witnessed as she is remembering it . It is very gripping and I wish Diane well where ever she is.
Another thing I have noticed that it appears that former residents had directors that they thought were cool or thought that they treated them nice . you know that is probably true a subjectivee experience .and who knows it might have been geared that way by elan .My point is that just because you liked a certain director or staff member (which is fine ) does't in no way mean that they weren't brutally overseeing the chronic abuse of another resident.
Parents please do not send your children to elan ,,, what is posted here by Diane is abuse that elan has gotten away with in the past ,,,what is there to keep it from happening again? ,,,I remember an interview where one of the directors jeffery gottlieb is quoted as saying that they don't do it like that anymore, see he admits it and smiles because he knows that elan and his fellow directors have gotten away with the abuse that Diane has posted here and this is just a small taste of what went on back in those days that "they don't do it like that anymore",,, Please if you love your children don't send your children to elan.
-
Guess I had a contract.Lorretta. I often think about you.Thank you for frezzing a piece of my birthday cake.That night coming back from hell.That lock up was sooooooo beyond sick and twisted,thought David was really going to kill me, or put me up stairs were he let me peek in.You want to be in there Verry?I said no!Standing there covered in wet cloths and shaving cream and the tampons all haning in my face.I remember a kid tied to the poll in his underware and the smell was awful.The cake was tasty and I was at ease to back in poland and far away from bear moutain.wow you would have gottenKILLED for that.hope your well and happy I am.
What year did all of this happen? They put tampons on you & you had to "knock" on the 14th tampon? they covered them in blood? someone pissed on you in a GM? u had to wear booty shorts & a fake gun & shake your ass around the dining room? why? how old were you?
-
I remember Loretta J. She ws a very kind person.
I witnessed the crown of tampons,,, they were dipped in ketchup to simulate blood. Some learning experience. I wonder what Diane was suppose to learn ,,, possibly that there were some very sick people that worked at elan and that elan was a very unfortunate place for anyone to find themselves in espcially back in those days.
No I think they were trying to break her spirit,,,create intense fear,,,incredible sense of worthlessness and hopelessness,,, I don't know why those men (directors) were so threatened of her ,,,not quite five feet tall and very thin...
Java this happened in late summer of 1974. I do not think Diane posts anywhere any more. I believe that she was intimadated by people who did not want her to continue posting elans shameful abuses that we witnessed. I hope that she is doing well and will get back in touch.
-
Hey dood! How's it goin?
Check it out. I ran into a dude who went through a state ordered program up here called Abraxix. Said he was a shingle for 22 months.