Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on September 09, 2005, 01:05:00 AM
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i want to apologize to everyone i hurt while i was in Str8. i'm sorry that i restrained you. i'm sorry that i yelled at you. i'm sorry that i laughed at you. i'm sorry that i didn't stand up and defend you. i'm jus' so fuckin' sorry.
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I forgive you.
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Thankyou, i am so sorry.
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There is certainly no need to apologize for any of that, Pirate. No need at all, son. You were doing the right thing; showing Tough Love to your fellow group members. Damn it! You were helping them to get straight! Now, it's time to FORGIVE YOURSELF and stop apologizing for something that you should be PROUD OF.
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You think an apology is the thing that is called for. You find yourself responsible for the things you did. You believe that you had choices. Which is it, brainwashed child victim? Or responsible party?
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Heavy question...
Ultimately i am responsible for my actions, none the less i was brainwashed. i was a victim who became a perpetrater. i am sorry.
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Did you do your actions because you were brainwashed, or because you were a perpetrator?
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Both.
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i never intentionally hurt anyone, but i know my actions caused pain. i guess what i'm apologizin' for is my own ignorance. i'm sorry that i lacked understanding and so allowed myself to be used as a tool of oppression against my brothers and sisters. i was weak.
It matters not whether i was a victim. i want to apologize to those i hurt.
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Well maybe you are apologizing for something you had no control over, after all, you were brainwashed, it was as though you had Borg electrodes stuck in you, you were a brainwashed robot, you had no power over your actions.
The other possibility of course is that you were the operator, you had control over your actions, you were not just suddenly pitched into a situation where someone is telling you to wrap yourself around the leg or arm of the person you are helping to restrain. You had training, including ethical training, to be in this position. You were aware when you signed that paper, whatever that paper was, that you were entering into an institution strictly designed for the purpose of practicing thought reform on children. You were equipped with the civic law knowledge and insight into cult workings so that you exercised your legal right and requested to speak privately with a lawyer. You had the emotional fortitude to deal with the crushing blow of being in prison without trial, the fact that your parents made this happen, and maintain independence of mind in the face of mean teenagers keeping you awake til 3 a.m. That did not break you. Nor did the fact that your parents heard your helpless pleas again months later, and again chose to abandon you. The hapless circumstances following your last cop-out. This all combined was not enough to drive you to despair so deep you lost your mind and had no freedom but only insane drive to keep going day after day in hell.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:59 ]
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I have no beef against most of my fellow prisoners...my beef is with the staff...but even then...if they have the guts to face me and apologize I would forgive them (are you reading this Scott?)...
Of course the irony is that I will never truly find peace until I forgive everyone involved unconditionally...even without an apology...the parents, the staff, the phasers...etc.
I thought I had let all of this go years ago...but this site has opend up a can of worms...which must mean that instead of letting it go I had just stuffed it all down deep inside... Maybe someday I willl truly let it all go...
Peace :exclaim:
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btw thanks for your words pirate... your are so money and you dont even know it...
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Ira was a cool cat...I am sure that he understood...and understands (from where he is now)...where you were coming from...
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whatever the case is, its honorable that you're apologizing and recognizing your impact as an unwilling cog in the mechanical system of abuse.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 22:59 ]
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Withdraw, if you know they were brainwashed at the time, then why do they have to say "sorry" before you forgive them?
And Noodle, how do you know that until you forgive everyone that you will never find peace inside?
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I guess I just believe that it is impossible to find true peace inside while holding on to a resentment...it is just my opinion...but I have found it to be true in my life...
The way to defeat an enemy is to forgive them...
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Because it is tragic but many allowed themselves to injure others so they could make phase... For that w/o taking responsibility .. I can not forgive .. YET .
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Oh my god, would you please think about the things you say? We defeated the Nazis because we forgave them? People had mass forgiveness rites for the Indians during that whole genocide?
Noodle, you are in your thirties and you have been brainwashed since Straight to think you have a "disease" or problem that nobody could have diagnosed at the age you went into Straight, a "disease" the diagnosis of which is so not based in fact that for the first time in the DSM they had to take a vote on whether or not they were going to call it a mental illness thing. I'll tell you why you believe forgiveness would give you peace, what the hell, I don't mind throwing a wager out there that you got some story burned in your head by Straight that you are totally afraid to question. So you have been going to these 12-step meetings for years, not because you really have drug or alcohol problem, but because you were really hurt as a child, you were in fact crippled with respect to your emotional functioning, and so instead of regarding Normalische Volken as potential friends for the company and enjoyment and needs of secret sharing and personal life problem solving, you thought you especially needed special friends who "really understood" that the lie Straight told you was true, that you were a diseased druggie with a sick twisted mind, that was your disease, and you NEEDED, really needed those meetings. So now that you are in your thirties, you spend your times not on the satisfying projects that many people discipline themselves to and find deep satisfaction in later in life. You remain a grown man in need of a room full of people who are more or less strange in that they also need a room full of people to take a look at their forgiveness functioning, their recognition of anger as an emotion which really ought to be fixed to not be anger, and so on. All the various and sundry truisms like "you are here for a reason", "there is a reason you are here", "my best thinking got me here and therefore i won't think anymore i will ask other people to think for me", and "my sponsor knows me better than I know myself!" The reason for that is that you bare way too embarassingly much, your sponsor might not even realize that. But eww, kid. I'm sorry about all that. They busted you up in Straight, and some folkses see themselves as accomplices rather than textbook victims so they really don't care to press the issue, having been so abused that they believe they were at one with the purpose of the Institution, rather than being destroyed children who's mind were, in fact, enslaved my practiced thought reform and abuse techniques.
But you, and I regret that you will take me as a mean troll, for I assure you of my sincerity when I say I do not love you, I have never met you, you do not love me, this is the internet, and yet, and I wish I could say your name here to give you more impact, but you, my dear, do not deserve the current status of your wrecked life. In which you back down and back down and back down. THAT is what forgiveness is. I would like to suggest to you that you get a clue on just what happened to the mind and spirit of the boy that got left by his parents in a lock-down facility on whichever date it was in true and actual history that you got dumped. Then you will see how Straight so raped your entire life that you have wasted years of your life in the way. Going to 12-step meetings, emasculating yourself in front of strangers. That is for your WIFE, or for private counseling, or close friends. You are strong boy, you fought the cruel institution when you were in there. Be strong enough to see the real history. Your parents are very happy to be getting such long-lasting returns on their initial investment for the purposes of your destruction.
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What does it mean to forgive ??
It does me absolutely no good to focus my emotional energy in the form of negativity directed toward those who have committed injustices against me in the past. When i forgive the transgressions against, me i let myself out of the cage that they hoped would hold me. i am free of the mental chains that they placed upon me. i am no longer their slave.
i have forgiven many people for many things. In cases where i have yet to forgive i feel the coldness of my cage.
Just because i choose to forgive doesn't mean that i have forgotten the injustice, doesn't mean that i am ignorant of what happened to me. i would jus' rather not live my life in anger and misery.
i haven't forgiven Str8 yet but i hope to someday.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:00 ]
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That was quite a post anon. I wish I had the time to fully respond to your last message...but I am off to the beach to hang with my friends...we will have to talk about this later...
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smoke up at the beach. :smokin:
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On 2005-09-09 16:55:00, Withdraw wrote:
"~~~i haven't forgiven Str8 yet but i hope to someday. ~~~
This should be our logo.
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I prefer the motto "Never forgive, never forget".
To me, the notion of forgiving my abusers is unthinkable, and would be morally bankrupt, not to mention an indication of how low my self-esteem would have to be for me to forgive them. They believe that they did no wrong, that they were justified in what they did, and that I deserved the abuse, that I brought it on myself. There will be no forgiveness for them from this druggie ingrate white boy, I can guaran-fucking-tee that.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:00 ]
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On 2005-09-09 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh my god, would you please think about the things you say? We defeated the Nazis because we forgave them? People had mass forgiveness rites for the Indians during that whole genocide?
Noodle, you are in your thirties and you have been brainwashed since Straight to think you have a "disease" or problem that nobody could have diagnosed at the age you went into Straight, a "disease" the diagnosis of which is so not based in fact that for the first time in the DSM they had to take a vote on whether or not they were going to call it a mental illness thing. I'll tell you why you believe forgiveness would give you peace, what the hell, I don't mind throwing a wager out there that you got some story burned in your head by Straight that you are totally afraid to question. So you have been going to these 12-step meetings for years, not because you really have drug or alcohol problem, but because you were really hurt as a child, you were in fact crippled with respect to your emotional functioning, and so instead of regarding Normalische Volken as potential friends for the company and enjoyment and needs of secret sharing and personal life problem solving, you thought you especially needed special friends who "really understood" that the lie Straight told you was true, that you were a diseased druggie with a sick twisted mind, that was your disease, and you NEEDED, really needed those meetings. So now that you are in your thirties, you spend your times not on the satisfying projects that many people discipline themselves to and find deep satisfaction in later in life. You remain a grown man in need of a room full of people who are more or less strange in that they also need a room full of people to take a look at their forgiveness functioning, their recognition of anger as an emotion which really ought to be fixed to not be anger, and so on. All the various and sundry truisms like "you are here for a reason", "there is a reason you are here", "my best thinking got me here and therefore i won't think anymore i will ask other people to think for me", and "my sponsor knows me better than I know myself!" The reason for that is that you bare way too embarassingly much, your sponsor might not even realize that. But eww, kid. I'm sorry about all that. They busted you up in Straight, and some folkses see themselves as accomplices rather than textbook victims so they really don't care to press the issue, having been so abused that they believe they were at one with the purpose of the Institution, rather than being destroyed children who's mind were, in fact, enslaved my practiced thought reform and abuse techniques.
But you, and I regret that you will take me as a mean troll, for I assure you of my sincerity when I say I do not love you, I have never met you, you do not love me, this is the internet, and yet, and I wish I could say your name here to give you more impact, but you, my dear, do not deserve the current status of your wrecked life. In which you back down and back down and back down. THAT is what forgiveness is. I would like to suggest to you that you get a clue on just what happened to the mind and spirit of the boy that got left by his parents in a lock-down facility on whichever date it was in true and actual history that you got dumped. Then you will see how Straight so raped your entire life that you have wasted years of your life in the way. Going to 12-step meetings, emasculating yourself in front of strangers. That is for your WIFE, or for private counseling, or close friends. You are strong boy, you fought the cruel institution when you were in there. Be strong enough to see the real history. Your parents are very happy to be getting such long-lasting returns on their initial investment for the purposes of your destruction."
Best damn Fornits post I've seen in a while.
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On 2005-09-09 14:41:00, the wet noodle wrote:
The way to defeat an enemy is to forgive them..."
No, the way to defeat an enemy is to destroy them.
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Crack the shell of an idol, if you want a metaphor.
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Heads skewered on stakes.
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On 2005-09-10 19:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Crack the shell of an idol, if you want a metaphor."
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Crack the skull of a Straight Executive staff member, if you want a real kick.
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Exec. staff were the main source of the intimidation. They were all adults and experienced enough to know that what they were doin' was criminal. I can remember Mr. Kelleher and Dean M**tretta comin' into the back of group durin' friday night review and bein so mean and cruel to the kids, i think i actually did hate those mutherfuckers at the time.
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Dean was a dick to be sure, but the REAL reason that piece of shit COCKSUCKER was there was to get a sniff of young male sweat that he no doubt missed from when he used to be a junior and senior staff member. ::ftard::
"Dean's boys" they were called, I think. :rofl:
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::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::both:: ::kma::
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On 2005-09-11 19:39:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"Dean was a dick to be sure, but the REAL reason that piece of shit COCKSUCKER was there was to get a sniff of young male sweat that he no doubt missed from when he used to be a junior and senior staff member. ::ftard::
"Dean's boys" they were called, I think. :rofl: "
Good thing you posted his name in full so it comes up on Google!
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Thanks for sharing anon :wave:
You sound like a very unhappy person... :grin: Hatin' is easy...
That is my experience as applied to my life...if you want to continue to hate and continue to WANT to blame str8 for all of your problems...then be my guest...
As for me...I am choosing to fight back instead...
Fuck stra8!
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On 2005-09-09 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh my god, would you please think about the things you say? We defeated the Nazis because we forgave them? People had mass forgiveness rites for the Indians during that whole genocide?
Noodle, you are in your thirties and you have been brainwashed since Straight to think you have a "disease" or problem that nobody could have diagnosed at the age you went into Straight, a "disease" the diagnosis of which is so not based in fact that for the first time in the DSM they had to take a vote on whether or not they were going to call it a mental illness thing. I'll tell you why you believe forgiveness would give you peace, what the hell, I don't mind throwing a wager out there that you got some story burned in your head by Straight that you are totally afraid to question. So you have been going to these 12-step meetings for years, not because you really have drug or alcohol problem, but because you were really hurt as a child, you were in fact crippled with respect to your emotional functioning, and so instead of regarding Normalische Volken as potential friends for the company and enjoyment and needs of secret sharing and personal life problem solving, you thought you especially needed special friends who "really understood" that the lie Straight told you was true, that you were a diseased druggie with a sick twisted mind, that was your disease, and you NEEDED, really needed those meetings. So now that you are in your thirties, you spend your times not on the satisfying projects that many people discipline themselves to and find deep satisfaction in later in life. You remain a grown man in need of a room full of people who are more or less strange in that they also need a room full of people to take a look at their forgiveness functioning, their recognition of anger as an emotion which really ought to be fixed to not be anger, and so on. All the various and sundry truisms like "you are here for a reason", "there is a reason you are here", "my best thinking got me here and therefore i won't think anymore i will ask other people to think for me", and "my sponsor knows me better than I know myself!" The reason for that is that you bare way too embarassingly much, your sponsor might not even realize that. But eww, kid. I'm sorry about all that. They busted you up in Straight, and some folkses see themselves as accomplices rather than textbook victims so they really don't care to press the issue, having been so abused that they believe they were at one with the purpose of the Institution, rather than being destroyed children who's mind were, in fact, enslaved my practiced thought reform and abuse techniques.
But you, and I regret that you will take me as a mean troll, for I assure you of my sincerity when I say I do not love you, I have never met you, you do not love me, this is the internet, and yet, and I wish I could say your name here to give you more impact, but you, my dear, do not deserve the current status of your wrecked life. In which you back down and back down and back down. THAT is what forgiveness is. I would like to suggest to you that you get a clue on just what happened to the mind and spirit of the boy that got left by his parents in a lock-down facility on whichever date it was in true and actual history that you got dumped. Then you will see how Straight so raped your entire life that you have wasted years of your life in the way. Going to 12-step meetings, emasculating yourself in front of strangers. That is for your WIFE, or for private counseling, or close friends. You are strong boy, you fought the cruel institution when you were in there. Be strong enough to see the real history. Your parents are very happy to be getting such long-lasting returns on their initial investment for the purposes of your destruction."
BTW this is the post I was responding too...
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If I live in hate...then Str8 wins... Hate just perpetuates more hate...
Hatred is purity...weakness is disease...oh we'll bury you..it's manifest destiny..
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM)
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:smokin: i'm burnin' one for you now. it's nice. i don't hate you one bit, jeezus, why'd you think that had any hate in it? it bothers me that you misbehaved for so long, they committed child torture on you, i read your post on the restraining they did to you, and yet, your mind, not by your fault, was still getting the cool aid pumped into it. and i do mean cool aid in the sense of being a poison.
look, kiddo, something you gotta realize is i can just fuck off as far you are concerned. i'm serious. that's pretty powerful that someone your age was so bothered by what some high chickie wrote who lives hundreds of miles away that he wanted to call her up and discuss it on the telephone that very night! bingo! kid, ya got nerve endings stuck out everywhere. you think you can't make it through the weekend without dealing with this because it is easy to provoke anxiety in you. maybe you think if you work your program the anxiety will go away.
as for me, i am very hurt and angry because of what you wrote!!!! you totally misinterpreted me!!! :flame:
just kidding.
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and i do mean cool aid in the sense of being a poison.
Just one goddamned minute here! Straight, Inc denies any allegations that there is ANYTHING in the kool-aid that we distribute in group other than KOOL AID! You got that? I can't BEGIN to imagine what kind of paranoid mind would concoct the notion that it is 'laced' it with anything else. :flame:
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I gather you drink a lot of it.
:roll:
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Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Why? Because I happen to like the sugary, artificial taste. It's a nice change-up from real FL orange juice every now and then. Though Ruthie doesn't approve at all, I insist on a 'fresh' glass of it in the morning at least once a week. You should try it sometime.
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Sorry, forgot to log in. Ruthie was just bitching at me about it right now as a matter of fact & distracting me as I type. :flame:
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i'm hot!
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andi'm thirsty! :sad:
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hey, Kool-Aid!!!!
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maybe you think if you work your program the anxiety will go away.
>>>>>>>> :tup:
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Anon wrote
" i don't hate you one bit, jeezus, why'd you think that had any hate in it?"
I do not think that you hate ME. I think that you hate STRA8 (as I do). I just strive to reach a point to where I can forgive Str8 and NO LONGER hate them for what they did to me. That is what I meant by hate perpetuating hate. As long as I hate str8 (which I most certainly still do) then Str8 wins.
As for wanting to call you and discuss your post...well...you can smoke up to deal with your feelings...I personally have found a different way... hell maybe YOUR way is better...who knows...
Peace
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damn this silly system...that last post was me again :smile:
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If I wasn't an addict I would smoke up and drink every chance I could...I wish like hell I wasn't an addict...then I could get high 5 times a day without any consequences :cool:
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high! :wave:
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On 2005-09-12 07:32:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"If I wasn't an addict I would smoke up and drink every chance I could...I wish like hell I wasn't an addict...then I could get high 5 times a day without any consequences :cool:
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You're not an addict! Just because Straight, and later the Stepcult, told you this, doesn't make it true!! Whether they said it once, or whether they said it a million times (gee, which do you think it was?), does NOT make it true! Smoke up, have a beer, enjoy yourself, get high! It won't hurt you. Be strong. Believe in yourself, not some kooked-out, self-limiting rule book written by psychotic Nazi sympathizers as part of the assimilation process for their CULT! The MYTH of the "disease" of chemical dependency is the cornerstone upon which all of the other LIES of the Stepcult rest! Free yourself from the vampiric clutches of Bill W. and all of his imps by getting high. It won't hurt you. I promise.
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Sorry anon but this last post is just plain fucking arrogant. You simply can't know that noodle isin't an addict. Noodle says he is, period. This is a reality to him and it's nobody else's fucking business. And i just haven't read enough additional information for me to doubt him. So why would you?
Most of the addicts I know that have been drug free for a long time don't continue to identify with addiction simply b/c people in meetings tell them they are addicted. Please, how insulting.
From my own experience I know that it would be rare for someone in a meeting to identify another person in a meeting as an addict. That's just not how it works...there'd be no reason to do this. People who are not addicts simply don't belong in meetings. People who are unsure are welcome to listen. The program works b/c of "one addict helping another". Convincing a non-addict that they are an addict would be pointless.
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On 2005-09-13 19:23:00, shady grove wrote:
"Sorry anon but this last post is just plain fucking arrogant. You simply can't know that noodle isin't an addict. Noodle says he is, period. This is a reality to him and it's nobody else's fucking business. And i just haven't read enough additional information for me to doubt him. So why would you?
It's my "conscious contact" with "God as I understand Him". He told me Noodle is NOT an addict, and suggested that Noodle start getting high again.
Most of the addicts I know that have been drug free for a long time don't continue to identify with addiction simply b/c people in meetings tell them they are addicted. Please, how insulting.
No, but the lie began somewhere, most likely a Stepcult indoctrination center, I mean, "meeting". I can definitely state that neither you nor Noodle, or anybody else who is blinded by Stepcraft dogma, is "powerless over drugs". They have never been "powerless over drugs", either. Granted, they may have made poor decisions at some point or other, but they were NEVER "powerless over drugs". To believe that they were "powerless" is the first breach in the levee that lets the flood of lies from the Stepcult rush in, drowning sanity and even common sense.
From my own experience I know that it would be rare for someone in a meeting to identify another person in a meeting as an addict. That's just not how it works...there'd be no reason to do this. People who are not addicts simply don't belong in meetings. People who are unsure are welcome to listen. The program works b/c of "one addict helping another". Convincing a non-addict that they are an addict would be pointless."
Yet they continue to do it as a matter of course! How else have they managed to swell their ranks? It is a fallacious concept, a lie, a fib, an old wive's tale, bullshit, completely untrue, an unsubstantiated rumor, a falsehood, jive talk, a myth, YET THEY CONTINUE TO EMBRACE IT!!! There is no such thing as "an addict" if you are using the Stepcult definition of one---they simply do not exist. This is because their definition rests on the assumption that an "addict" is someone who is "powerless over drugs", a concept so obviously bankrupt of truth that it is a flaming wonder that anyone ever bought into it, WITHOUT having it drilled into their head by some Stepcult-dogma-spouting, would-be "savior", hell bent on saving people from themselves by drawing them into the fold of the brainwashed.
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I do not have to "forgive" Straight, or perform any other mental contortions. Anger is a perfectly acceptable emotion to feel, as are rage and frustration in the face of such crimes. especially since they have not yet been addressed and reparated. That's life. I'm pissed at the Feds, too, at that smirking little turd in the White House, etc. This anger and disgust makes me a better public speaker, it makes me read stuff and talk to people and set up web forums and so on.
I would not even describe my feeling about Straight as "hate". That is too elementary.
Straight is not even a person. How can I forgive an institution?
Look, my point is, you guys are so uncomfortable with anger. Get pissed at what they did to you. If you want to forgive someone for real, go talk to that Staff person who is the bane of your existence in your mind. Clear it up. You might find they are still a jerkoff and still hurting children. You might find they have no sympathy, or you might find they are completely okay talking to you, and will set the story right about what Straight was doing to you, and accept "blame" - another word that is unfairly discriminated against.
I am saying, you are giving up a huge source of energy and power by giving up anger and other "negative" feelings. I can't blame you for not wanting to feel them and know where they come from. That is some intense history.
Maybe you are afraid that if you keep feeling these feelings you will go crazy or hurt someone. No, you will grieve. Under the rage about being beltlooped is intense humiliation and helplessness. Under the anger towards our parents, there is devastation and grief. They signed you over to be abused. I understand people want to have their families back. This should never be at the expense of the truth, at least you have to know the truth in your mind, or what you are doing by making peace is just tucking your tail, it's a lie.
I worry that some of you are "working your program". You were abused. You are under no obligation from God or anyone to "get over it". You don't get any brownie points, except maybe from other people with the same philosophy. You do not have to feel guilty for your hatred and anger.
Sometimes it's just the top of grief.
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Anon, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about now. Anger is cool, whatever.
I see ALOT of holes in your conspiracy theory about 12-step programs, addiction and powerlessness. I also sense your mind is made up about it, so I'm not gonna bother you about this anymore.
I AM pissed about straight. Just because I don't get high doesn't mean I love or loved straight. I have alot of serious psychopathology b/c of that place that frankly the people in NA or AA can't help me with. But I'm growing. I'm living through the pain. It's hard. And a bowl of PCP (my personal favorite drug) ain't gonna help much either. I'm tired of wiping the drool from chin.
BTW, the first step of NA is that "we admitted were powerless over our ADDICTION..." not a specific substance.
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No, no. Anon is absolutely right. You are not and never were powerless over your habits. You may or may not have been addicted to some substance or other or just compulsive about it w/o any physical dependency.
But you never were w/o power over your actions. None of us are. You have all of the power over what and how much of it you will do. All of us do. No one is powerless over drugs, addiction or any other volitional activity.
And I agree w/ anon. It's evil and fucked up to go around intentionally convincing people that they're powerless. And they're right about the subversive influence the step cult has in our society, especially the public sector.
Here's a good info resource on how that battle is playing out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/)
In the United States alone more than a million people each year are forced into these programs by courts, licensing boards, and government employers.
Two federal circuit courts (Second and Seventh Circuits) and two state supreme courts (Tennessee and New York) have ruled this practice to be in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, yet the coercion continues throughout the country and also in other countries.
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-09-14 04:41:00, shady grove wrote:
"Anon, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about now. Anger is cool, whatever."
I wrote the post above this one you wrote, not most of the other ones about addiction. You're so uncomfortable with anger that you read my post as saying "anger is cool". And, you throw the "fucking" in there, just to remind us that you are angry. Well done, mate. Get a mind of your own. Believing you are an "addict" nearly twenty year after the fact is pathetic. Remember, they abused you severely. You and Sophie both owe it to yourselves to question this whole "addict" thing. You too are baby man, Straight produced many of these, who like to be a baby in front of strangers in a meeting. Or spout a bunch of ridiculous program shite. It is pathetic for you two to spend your time going to meetings. Live it up. Life is short. Do drugs or don't do drugs. For god's sake, don't waste another 18 or twenty years on this shit before you figure it out. Try some exit counseling for that cult addiction of yours.
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One of the worst things that Str8 did was to diagnose people with addiction without knowing all of the facts...they had a 13 year old girl whose drug of choice was "flowers" for god sake...
I am also sorry that some of you had to endure Str8 when you did not even have a problem with drugs...I am an addict and I wish to god that my mother had found a different treatment center.
Str8 sucked (understatement of the year)
But for you to have the gaul to diagnose me as not an addict just b/c YOU are not an addict...FUCK YOU! you are engaging in the same type of irresponsible behavior as Str8!!!! You know nothing about me...
I pity you that you are still so angry at what Str8 did to you that you have now decided to diagnose others as non addicts... YOU are so brainwashed that you do not believe in addiction simply because you are not an addict...just because you have a choice...as a non addict...does not mean that there is no such thing as addiction...you are so arrogant...
What if you convince someone on this site with your anti AA/NA propoganda and they get high and end up dying? People die from addiction every day...I personally know a number of people who have died from addiction...my best friends sister was found in a van in DC with a needle in her arm...
Look, I am sorry that Str8 fucked you up so bad...but for you to say what you are saying...you are perpetuating the legacy of Str8's abuse... :exclaim:
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Well said. Take or leave whatever you experienced in Straight, but move on.
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I mean to say that diagnosing someone as not an addict when you do not even know them...that is the same things as Str8 diagnosing a non addict as an addict...
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agreed
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On 2005-09-08 23:10:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"i never intentionally hurt anyone, but i know my actions caused pain. i guess what i'm apologizin' for is my own ignorance. i'm sorry that i lacked understanding and so allowed myself to be used as a tool of oppression against my brothers and sisters. i was weak.
It matters not whether i was a victim. i want to apologize to those i hurt."
go fucking clean out the latrine. I would not tolerate your weakneedy apology if you offered it with my M4 in your face. Fight or die; it always was your choice. You expect forgivness?Since/if you refuse to fight you are already dead. I'd put you out of your misery so I would not have to type a... fuck it you're already gone.
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Pirate, you didn't stand up for yourself and you can deal with that on your own time. But, you turned on your own. I can't forgive, but I can damn well make sure I don't have anyone like yourself watching my back. It's been a long week and Coasties(overtaxed HELO CWs) have shook me LOOSE. You did not deserve my tirade/attack and you have my pity.
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No antigen I disagree. These groups (at least every one I've been to) has no agenda that I have witnessed (and I've been to alot of meetings) where convincing someone else that they are powerless was happening. The program is voluntary (yes, I know some are court-ordered, but they don't receive any coercion, I can guarentee this...hell most of these types are in a coma in along the back wall).
I have never claimed to be powerless over my own actions. That's not what is being referred to at all.
Anon, maybe I am pathetic. That is a relative term and compared to you or another I may be. I can certainly identify some pathetic parts of me that I'd like to change...like being obese. But I have a good life (compared to someone more pathetic than me).
Thank you for your suggestion to stop going to meetings and get counseling. I assume it was made in good faith. Yes I did throw in a few "fuckings", I thought that kind of thing was done alot around here.
I didn't assume your post meant "anger is cool" I meant something else that seems a little stupid to try to explain now. You've pointed out a few things in me that maybe I should examine. I'm not sure how you have information about me, but I will accept it.
Does anyone here realize that 12-step groups are not straight. There is no formal connection? People in meetings can't believe my straight stories when I tell them. They KNOW how fucked-up I am about that place.
Later
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No, Wet Noodle, nobody said you were never addicted to anything. I'll take your word for it, but w/ a grain of salt. If you haven't used in so many years, odds are very, very slim that what you are was, far less are, is an addict.
What Anon said and I echoed (a dozen times using various words and phrases) is that neither you nor anyone else is powerless over substances or addiction.
You want a method that's just as effective, if not more so, than the 12-step method? Ok, how about the merchant method? Instead of going to meetings, just quit going to the dealer? Simple, huh? And 100% effective, if you work it. Also less time consuming, 0 mindfucking and overall just a better solution.
Shady, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree. It's not my opinion or anon's that the courts, certification boards and other people in positions of authority are coercing so many people in this country and abroad into 12-step indoctrination under threat of imprisonment or loss of livlihood. It's objective, documented fact. And, according to at least four different courts, also a violation of the seperation clause.
And it doesn't matter whether you approve of the practice or not. Who in the hell do you think is promoting these stupid policies? Non steppers? No, that's doubtful. I'm fairly certain that it's stepcraft believers and practitioners behind this.
The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie-deliberate, contrived, and dishonest-but the myth-persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
--John F. Kennedy, U.S. President
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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On 2005-09-14 10:52:00, the wet noodle wrote:
But for you to have the gaul to diagnose me as not an addict just b/c YOU are not an addict...FUCK YOU! you are engaging in the same type of irresponsible behavior as Str8!!!! You know nothing about me...
I say you are not an addict because you aren't one. Do you have physical symptoms of withdrawal when unable to obtain certain substances? No? Congratulations, you are NOT AN ADDICT.
What if you convince someone on this site with your anti AA/NA propoganda and they get high and end up dying?
Puh--leaze!!!! Quit the dogma spouting!! "DEADINSANEJAILDEADINSANEJAIL" there, I said it twice so you don't have to. If someone were to leave NA/AA, use drugs and die, all from reading what I have said, then fine. At least they will have died free of the Stepcult, which is preferable to being a living dead Zombie For Bill W.
Look, I am sorry that Str8 fucked you up so bad...but for you to say what you are saying...you are perpetuating the legacy of Str8's abuse...
Now that would be insulting if it weren't so goddamn ridiculous---to say that by attempting to free folks from the Stepcult, I am perpetuating the legacy of Straight's abuse. Damn, dude, you are 'washed HARD! How you can swallow the Stepcult dogma that was PART AND PARCEL, an INTEGRAL PART of Straight, is goofy enough, but then to say that when I bash Stepcraft that I am perpetuating Straight's abuse......sheesh! It's OK, your sponsor will make the bad druggies go away, now roll over and go back to sleep........
"
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Not only that, but just questioning the cult is apt to kill people.
So I guess next time I get really pissed at somebody, instead of flipping them off, I should just say "Ya' know what, you're not an addict and never were" then go home and wait for them to die.The trouble with practical jokes is that very often they get elected.
Will Rogers, American humorist, political commentator and cowboy philosopher
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On 2005-09-14 14:13:00, dragonfly wrote:
"Isn't pretty much a required belief that if you are a member of that program, you believe that without meetings, you'll revert to your bad ways and eventually die from it?"
Yes, that's the dogma, but they'll deny it when you press the issue. Idf someone stops goingf and doesn't die, go crazy, or end up in prison, they disqualify them by saying "they must not have been a real addict/alcoholic".
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i'm standin' up all along, anon. And i put up alot of resistence all the way along. i am one of the strong.
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I am sorry if you think that Str8 had anything to do with AA/NA but here is a news flash...
AA/NA has NOTHING to do with Str8!!!!!!!!!
But whatever...I can see that you obviously think that just b/c Str8 forced the 12 steps down your throat...then you think that they are bad for everyone...that is a very ignorant and irresponsible point of view...that is a direct result of your resentment against Str8 for forcing the 12 steps down youir throat...
Which is the main reason why AA/NA NEVER force the steps down anyone's throat...
Antigen may be right that there are other programs out there that force people to attend AA/NA...but these ARE NOT endorsed by AA/NA...they may be endorsed by certain individual who are members of AA/NA...but these people do not speak for AA/NA My personal point of view is that anyone forced into AA/NA will never stay sober/clean.. it needs to be a voluntary thing...
AA/NA save millions of lives...they are able to do this because they do not endorse any treatment center or institution...
The main reason that they do not endorse anything is because it could create a controversy that would turn people away from AA/NA and cause addicts to die unnecessarily...
You both are a perfect example of what happens when the steps are forced on someone...it hurts everyone involved...and doesn't work...so now you have become spokesman against one of the only succesfull treatements for addiction(AA/NA)...all because of Str8...
Fuck Str8
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One more thing...notice how I am not judging you or your lifestyle...but for some reason you are judging me and my lifestyle?
What is it about me that threatens you so much?
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dragon..I meant that Str8 forcing the steps down the throats of non addicts have turned them against AA/NA... i do not see the controversy with that statement...
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On 2005-09-14 14:29:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"One more thing...notice how I am not judging you or your lifestyle...but for some reason you are judging me and my lifestyle?
What is it about me that threatens you so much?"
Uhm, your lifestyle? I don't even know anything about your lifestyle. And I don't think anyone's judging it. It's about what you are saying. Like, for example
What if you convince someone on this site with your anti AA/NA propoganda and they get high and end up dying? People die from addiction every day...I personally know a number of people who have died from addiction...my best friends sister was found in a van in DC with a needle in her arm...
What if you convince someone to trust the step cult and they then off themselves because they took a drink and became convinced that they were thereby doomed?
Why does critizism of the stepcult bother you so much?Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
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On 2005-09-14 14:25:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"I am sorry if you think that Str8 had anything to do with AA/NA but here is a news flash...
AA/NA has NOTHING to do with Str8!!!!!!!!!
But whatever...I can see that you obviously think that just b/c Str8 forced the 12 steps down your throat...then you think that they are bad for everyone...that is a very ignorant and irresponsible point of view...that is a direct result of your resentment against Str8 for forcing the 12 steps down youir throat...
Which is the main reason why AA/NA NEVER force the steps down anyone's throat...
Antigen may be right that there are other programs out there that force people to attend AA/NA...but these ARE NOT endorsed by AA/NA...they may be endorsed by certain individual who are members of AA/NA...but these people do not speak for AA/NA My personal point of view is that anyone forced into AA/NA will never stay sober/clean.. it needs to be a voluntary thing...
AA/NA save millions of lives...they are able to do this because they do not endorse any treatment center or institution...
The main reason that they do not endorse anything is because it could create a controversy that would turn people away from AA/NA and cause addicts to die unnecessarily...
You both are a perfect example of what happens when the steps are forced on someone...it hurts everyone involved...and doesn't work...so now you have become spokesman against one of the only succesfull treatements for addiction(AA/NA)...all because of Str8...
Fuck Str8
"
Where to start, where to start? Your post is so filled with Stepcraft jive and doublespeak, it's hard to begin. Drop the cult dogma and maybe we can have a real bit of discourse.
First of all, Straight had EVERYTHING to do with Stepcraft. They just happened to be one of the more fanatical sects of the Stepcraft religion.
Secondly, it is amusing how Stepsters sideSTEP the issue of forced treatment and meetings "Oh, we don't do that". Bullshit. If it looks like coercion, smells like coercion, and spouts Stepcult dogma under threat of incarceration or loss of livlihood, it's coercion. Do you really think for one second that the Stepcrafters are NOT behind forced treatment? Who do you think is behind it, liquor companies? If you're that stupid or blind to the obvious, there's really no point in arguing. Bill W. said it, you believe it, that settles it.
AA/NA saves millions of lives? BULLSHIT! People may have saved their own lives, and (erroneously) crediited Stepcraft, but that's about as close as they come. What about your book "12 Spells and 12 Superstitions" that tells would-be sponsors (read: oldcomers) to encourage people to keep using until they "hit bottom"? How many people have died as a result of the Stepcult? Huh? Huh? Tell me!
"One of the only successful treatments for addiction"? That's funny! Their own 1989 Triennial report estimated that only 5% of people achieve long-term abstinance. You are much better off quitting without the Stepcult. You are even better off than that if you learn how to use drugs without harming yourself or others.
Like I said previously, you should free yourself from the vampiric clutches of Bill W. and his imps by getting high. Smoke a joint--it won't kill you. Remember, relapsers have more fun........ :smokin:
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Show me one imp, just one. WHO are these people? I want to know. Am I an imp?
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Wow...are you high right now? I can see that your paranoid delusions make this conversation meaningles...If you really think that there is a conspiracy behind AA/NA...well then there is nothing more that I can say to you...we will just have to agree to disagree...
I almost forgot how paranoid that weed can make you...thanks for the reminder... :silly:
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Since I have no experience with drug addiction (by AA or straights definition) personally...one thing said somewhere along the line got me thinking...about the so-called "powerlessness." Here's why I actually question the "first step"----I smoke, nicotine IS AN ADDICTION....yet no one is powerless over nicotine even if the person never quits and remains addicted. I personally quit because I made a conscious decision/choice to quit many years ago (I was "smoke free" for well over 3 years...I have since resumed by choice the habit recently).
My point really is that the whole idea that saying I am powerless over something like a nicotine addiction undermines the entire concept of free will. As if I have no choice in whether or not I remain addicted??? That is silly to me. Plus, for me, if I say I'm powerless...while still smoking (still addicted)...it takes all responsibility off MY shoulders and places all blame on the substance (nicotine). Anything that relieves me of responsibility over MY personal decisions (my free will), such as the "powerlessness" idea, seems inherently suspect to me.
I'm really making an anology to express how I personally have doubts about "powerlessness." Any thoughts pro or con?
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Well, I suppose it's a lot like the slut friend thing. If you have to ask then, yeah, probably so.
Life is like a bird, at any given moment it is droping a load. It is only a matter of time before one eventually find you.
SysAdmin
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On 2005-09-14 14:29:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"One more thing...notice how I am not judging you or your lifestyle...but for some reason you are judging me and my lifestyle?
What is it about me that threatens you so much?"
I'm not threatened by you personally, but I am disgused by the way you embrace Stepcraft. I AM threatened by your cult---they would love to see me locked up in forced treatment at a Stepcult indoctrination center. They have tried and failed on more than one occasion. Others here are dealing with your cult's interference in their lives as we speak. I judge your lifestyle because it is detrimental to human dignity and personal freedom. Also, my cult, the Red Temple Cult, is the ONE TRUE RELIGION, and we have recently declared Jihad against the Stepcult, a group of false prophets and their deluded, zombielike followers, a religion which slanders and denigrates substances (you refer to them as 'drugs') which we hold to be SACRAMENTS in our religion!! "There ain't room on this planet for the both of us". We're not too worried, though, we know we're smarter than you guys, hell, we'll fight you with half our demons tied behind our alien contact altars, just to make it fair! Praise the Red Temple Cult!!!! Death to all infidels!!! Wooo-hoo!!! Pass me that joint!!! All hail RTP, St. Froderick, Rabbi Dopeman, and all other Red Temple Cult members!! Yay Red Temple Cult!!!!!!!!
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On 2005-09-14 14:48:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"Wow...are you high right now? I can see that your paranoid delusions make this conversation meaningles...If you really think that there is a conspiracy behind AA/NA...well then there is nothing more that I can say to you...we will just have to agree to disagree...
I almost forgot how paranoid that weed can make you...thanks for the reminder... :silly: "
Yes, I am high on marijuana, caffeine, and nicotine THIS VERY MINUTE!!! Are you brainwashed?
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On 2005-09-14 14:50:00, dragonfly wrote:
"
On 2005-09-14 14:48:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"Wow...are you high right now? I can see that your paranoid delusions make this conversation meaningles...If you really think that there is a conspiracy behind AA/NA...well then there is nothing more that I can say to you...we will just have to agree to disagree...
I almost forgot how paranoid that weed can make you...thanks for the reminder... :silly: "
who is that remark directed to?
"
not you dragon
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On 2005-09-14 14:45:00, shady grove wrote:
"Show me one imp, just one. WHO are these people? I want to know. Am I an imp?"
If you have ever tried to prosletyze for Stepcraft, then yes, you are one of Bill W.'s imps. If you believe that you are "powerless" and the Stepcult can "restore you to sanity" then, yes, you are more than likely one of Bill W.'s imps.
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leggo of it,already.
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On 2005-09-14 14:49:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"Since I have no experience with drug addiction (by AA or straights definition) personally...one thing said somewhere along the line got me thinking...about the so-called "powerlessness." Here's why I actually question the "first step"----I smoke, nicotine IS AN ADDICTION....yet no one is powerless over nicotine even if the person never quits and remains addicted. I personally quit because I made a conscious decision/choice to quit many years ago (I was "smoke free" for well over 3 years...I have since resumed by choice the habit recently).
My point really is that the whole idea that saying I am powerless over something like a nicotine addiction undermines the entire concept of free will. As if I have no choice in whether or not I remain addicted??? That is silly to me. Plus, for me, if I say I'm powerless...while still smoking (still addicted)...it takes all responsibility off MY shoulders and places all blame on the substance (nicotine). Anything that relieves me of responsibility over MY personal decisions (my free will), such as the "powerlessness" idea, seems inherently suspect to me.
I'm really making an anology to express how I personally have doubts about "powerlessness." Any thoughts pro or con?
"
You make an excellent point demonstrating the fallacy of the concept of "powerlessness", NCL. That is the lie upon which all other Stepcult dogma is built. Take away that fundamental myth, and the whole house of cards comes down, revealed at last for the unnecessary ruse that it is.
Of course, some Stepcraft practitioner will now say that we "don't understand it" properly. I guess we just haven't received the "gift of Awareness" (I think I must have been busy rolling a joint or mixing a drink when they gave it out).
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You all (as non-addicts) are in a position to debate and theorize about the steps, powerlessness, and addiction. It is no theory to me...the 12th steps saved my life...and I have seen it save the lives of many of my friends. I am a regular attendee of AA for the past 17 years and I shave sponsered many men.
It is silly to debate topic that is settled fact for me...I am living proof of the success of the steps...
People (and their interpretation of the steps) in AA are often fucked up...but in my opinion the steps are not...
I have been very defensive, sarcastic, and caustic when I speak on this subject...those are ways that I do not want to be...so I am through debating this topic... you have your point of view and I will have mine...
Mine is...Str8 is fucked...the 12 steps are not...
NEXT TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On 2005-09-14 16:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You all (as non-addicts) are in a position to debate and theorize about the steps, powerlessness, and addiction. It is no theory to me...the 12th steps saved my life...and I have seen it save the lives of many of my friends. I am a regular attendee of AA for the past 17 years and I shave sponsered many men.
It is silly to debate topic that is settled fact for me...I am living proof of the success of the steps...
People (and their interpretation of the steps) in AA are often fucked up...but in my opinion the steps are not...
I have been very defensive, sarcastic, and caustic when I speak on this subject...those are ways that I do not want to be...so I am through debating this topic... you have your point of view and I will have mine...
Mine is...Str8 is fucked...the 12 steps are not...
NEXT TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"
This was me...lol
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Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Without NA, I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL
Repeat, ad nauseum.
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You mean, "Without SIBS I'd be DEADINSANEINJAIL"
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On 2005-09-14 16:26:00, the wet noodle wrote:
You all (as non-addicts)
You sure do make a lot of assumptions. How do you know that the anon you've been arguing w/ isn't a former addict? How do you know if he's maybe got a better handle on the whole thing than you do or any of your stepcult buddies?
Maybe you should ask him.When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).
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On 2005-09-14 11:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-08 23:10:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"i never intentionally hurt anyone, but i know my actions caused pain. i guess what i'm apologizin' for is my own ignorance. i'm sorry that i lacked understanding and so allowed myself to be used as a tool of oppression against my brothers and sisters. i was weak.
It matters not whether i was a victim. i want to apologize to those i hurt."
go fucking clean out the latrine. I would not tolerate your weakneedy apology if you offered it with my M4 in your face. Fight or die; it always was your choice. You expect forgivness?Since/if you refuse to fight you are already dead. I'd put you out of your misery so I would not have to type a... fuck it you're already gone."
who is this? this is hot. i think i know who it is.
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On 2005-09-14 11:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pirate, you didn't stand up for yourself and you can deal with that on your own time. But, you turned on your own. I can't forgive, but I can damn well make sure I don't have anyone like yourself watching my back. It's been a long week and Coasties(overtaxed HELO CWs) have shook me LOOSE. You did not deserve my tirade/attack and you have my pity."
call me
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On 2005-09-14 14:25:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"i'm standin' up all along, anon. And i put up alot of resistence all the way along. i am one of the strong."
doesn't want to come clean about the abuse he participated in! guess what, kiddo. misbehaver's back, the only person around here i ever respected. a real man!!!! finally!!!!!!!
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On 2005-09-14 14:29:00, the wet noodle wrote:
"One more thing...notice how I am not judging you or your lifestyle...but for some reason you are judging me and my lifestyle?
What is it about me that threatens you so much?"
nothing about you threatens me, that's my point.
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On 2005-09-14 15:10:00, dragonfly wrote:
"The wet noodle says he's not going to argue about this any more because people are saying that the 12 steps are a conspiracy.
I think we should go kidnap him and give him acid.
"
word.
now let's see who's paranoid.
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On 2005-09-14 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-14 14:25:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"i'm standin' up all along, anon. And i put up alot of resistence all the way along. i am one of the strong."
todd doesn't want to come clean about the abuse he participated in! guess what, kiddo. misbehaver's back, the only person around here i ever respected. a real man!!!! finally!!!!!!!"
i totally want to come clean. That's why i started this thread in the first place.
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ooh. the confessional. hmmm.
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OK, gotta shower from the 1/4. The stink on my back is nothing worse than...the dead. I wuva sweet girl. I'm kinda home; but I'm not kind.
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sorry 'bout that. I'm gawdamn tired and my BUDS need a whole lotta help. I be needing to snatch my pack and gear and go back. It's one thing to get some(body) to step into a fight, but it's a whole 'nother matter to ask them to go back into...Jason
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:02 ]
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Hey, i'm the sorry ass mutherfucker tryin' to apologize. i was readin' over some back threads when i came across a dialogue between Withdraw and Misbehaver and they were talkin' 'bout how they never gave in, never motivated. jus' sat there for months on end until it was over. They made me realize that i even owed an apology, that i did have a choice, That even though i was a victim of brainwash i wasn't unconscious. Even though i was severely abused myself, i had a choice and i made the wrong desicion. The only right thing for me to have done, since they wouldn't let me leave, would 'a' been to jus' sit there and wait my time out. Since i didn't do that i apologize.
It's not like i never fought back or stood up for myself, i did countless times. it aint like i never copped out or never misbehaved, or refused to motivate or write my M.I. i did all those things. But i see where i was wrong too.
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who is this? this is hot. i think i know who it is.
..sticking a gun in pirate's face is 'hot'?... pffft.....whatever.. ::noway:: ::eek3::
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I think we should go kidnap him and give him acid.
Nah....leave him alone. If someone (preferably two really hot females) wants to kidnap me and give me some acid, mushrooms, mescaline, or peyote that would be great! I'm about due for some psychedelics right now!
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On 2005-09-15 07:30:00, Froderik wrote:
"I think we should go kidnap him and give him acid.
Nah....leave him alone. If someone (preferably two really hot females) wants to kidnap me and give me some acid, mushrooms, mescaline, or peyote that would be great! I'm about due for some psychedelics right now! "
I know of one hot high chickie that may able to help you out
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And who, exactly, would this be? ::blushing::
If you don't wanna spill it here, pm me... :wink:
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I know who :grin:
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On 2005-09-15 09:59:00, Froderik wrote:
"And who, exactly, would this be? ::blushing::
If you don't wanna spill it here, pm me... :wink: "
Check out the third message down in the Goodbye thread.
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That tells me NOTHING, thanks. :lol:
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On 2005-09-15 11:11:00, Froderik wrote:
"That tells me NOTHING, thanks. :lol:
"
That is where I got the reference from...sorry...maybe if you are a gentleman she will PM you...
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Yeah....that's ok. All that post tells anyone is that "noodle doesn't like to be whipped by hot high chickies" which is totally useless and irrelevant considering my question was who is the high chickie that wants to kidnap me and give me acid.
I'm a perfect gentleman, so no worries there. :grin:
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WELL? :lol:
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On 2005-09-15 07:29:00, Froderik wrote:
"who is this? this is hot. i think i know who it is.
..sticking a gun in pirate's face is 'hot'?... pffft.....whatever.. ::noway:: ::eek3:: "
oh for GOD"s sake WHY do i have to exPLAIN everything around here?
a friend of mine says to another friend of mine:
"Since/if you refuse to fight you are already dead. I'd put you out of your misery..."
of COURSE i don't want anyone around here to get hurt!!!!!
now i am mad.
okay, i'm over it. jason just meant fight or die. and i think pirate knows exactly what he means.
by the way, you use too many emoticons. ::rolleyes::
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On 2005-09-15 06:22:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Hey, i'm the sorry ass mutherfucker tryin' to apologize. i was readin' over some back threads when i came across a dialogue between Withdraw and Misbehaver and they were talkin' 'bout how they never gave in, never motivated. jus' sat there for months on end until it was over. They made me realize that i even owed an apology, that i did have a choice, That even though i was a victim of brainwash i wasn't unconscious. Even though i was severely abused myself, i had a choice and i made the wrong desicion. The only right thing for me to have done, since they wouldn't let me leave, would 'a' been to jus' sit there and wait my time out. Since i didn't do that i apologize.
It's not like i never fought back or stood up for myself, i did countless times. it aint like i never copped out or never misbehaved, or refused to motivate or write my M.I. i did all those things. But i see where i was wrong too."
After reading this Pirate and giving thought to past posts from you on this topic----something hit me that bothers me....about what I did not in straight...I NEVER fought back, never resisted, never disobeyed by "misbehaving" or by simply sitting without motivating....WHY? fear of course...I was so terrified of the confrontation and "consequences" for misbehaving or copping out that I just complied for the sake of my own survival.
Now how I "perpetrated" so to speak straights vicious cycle makes sense to me...the only difference is that I dont feel the need to apologize because of the things I said before on Breakin the Spell thread like......
??did you (or I for that matter) every really have a choice? The consequences were so severe that our thoughts and actions were forced upon us and compliance meant acting and thinking straight's way for survival.
If we really ever had choices, then I would agree completely with you. Dont get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you actually...its just the idea of being remotely responsible for actions and thoughts while in straight baffles me.?
?Yeah I agree that we adopted straight thinking (not necessarily realizing it at the time) to survive but in a sense....isn?t this simply acting on survival instincts and having our minds twisted by straight rather than conscious decision making? I guess I don?t mean to totally eliminate "choice" because theoretically all in straight had "free will." But how much free will did we really have? We were children...like for me I was in a state of constant terror....when confronted for so-called "erroneous thinking" or "not admitting to drug use", etc., afterward I would seriously question my own thinking & feel extremely confused...and after awhile....after more confrontation, I came to believe (incorrectly) my thinking must be wrong and I must have used drugs because surely I wouldn?t be confronted, belittled unless they are right and I'm wrong....
That was my thinking in the beginning...I don?t remember ever really making choices(although maybe I did and just don?t remember).....From my view now looking back, I believe my mind (through the various abuses) became twisted into straight's thinking, because of the abuses NOT of my own will. If we were adults at the time...I think choice may have been more likely....because we would have had longer to form our own beliefs based on more life experiences.?
?I'm not saying I'm right our wrong, I dont know---I just have theories at this point----but I thinks this really hits on the brainwashing thing and I struggle to understand just like everyone else. You know---how much is a brainwashed child really responsible for while in the midst of continuous brainwashing? I think its a good question.?
So after a lot of thought, I am now saying that being a victim and a ?villain? at the same time makes more sense because I see how my compliance in straight helped allow straights abuses continue?but I think that in a situation like straight as we were at the time?.being that ?villain? in Straight is really just a symptom/part of being the victim, which is forgivable and no apologies necessary?..in my opinion of course. BUT, again in my opinion, if a ?victim? truly embraced Straight ideology and continue support it, and perpetuate it in a way such as becoming an executive staff member and/or continuing to justify Straight?s madness to this day---that, to me anyway, requires remorse and apology, and I would feel the need to try to forgive that person. Again hope I am making sense. ::rainbow::
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NCL, you're gonna make one hell of a lawyer..if you aren't one already. You present a good case, I'd hire you.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:03 ]
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On 2005-09-15 23:10:00, Withdraw wrote:
"I can not tell a lie.. (even if I try, lol) I am grateful and hold dearly the fact I did not participate in Straight. But I don't negativly ~blame anyone who did.I know how scarey it was. Each individuals personal dynamic make-up is diffrent,but equally important in this world.
I did things later like , secretly Organize a High school walk out ( 750 kids, TV, newspaper etc )... for mold growing in several areas... LOL. In 10th grade I was EXPELLED from school for .. refusing to say the pledge ( because I would not say One nation under God..).. (now it's been reconized as unconstitutional)
So,rebelling against what I believe is wrong comes natrually for me. That is what kept me from complying. Don't get me wrong! Non compliance has been a harsh lesson in my life. I don't ever seem to choose the path of least resistance. I can't help but be this way, There is no other choice for me. Apparently, This is the soul I choose or was given.. and These are MY lessons.
There HAS to be both compliant and Non compliant people to make this world go round. So I honor both ways of living, because they are necessary."
I think there are different types of nonconformist/rebellers. Just by reading this I could tell you are a different type of rebeller than I am. I'm sure personality differences have a lot to do with it.
My extreme compliance in straight was actually unusual for me and purly fear driven....no one was ever able to control me before straight, no one could tell me what to think, how to live, etc. which is really how I ended up in straight in the first place...my parents falsly attributed my rebelliousness to being a bad kid.
After Straight...I recovered my nonconformist self....I think I am a different type of rebeller than others though.....I never have felt the need to do many outward things to show my disagreement with the world, maybe because I am the quiet type....although I will say it showed up in how I dressed for years....if it pissed off or offended my parents or society....I wore it.
My nonconformist streak has always shown up more in the form that ----nobody can tell me what to do, Period. Nobody can tell me how to think, Period. Nobody can tell me who my friends should be, Period. stuff like that.
And you are completely right about how difficult it is walking on the road less traveled....those who refuse to follow and play along do pay a high price...I know what you mean. I have paid dearly just for doing things my own way over the years....its often in subtle ways too (IE. one by one various so called friends in law school turned on me because I refuse to accept their mentality---and because I will disagree, because I wouldnt adopt their views, etc. I made enemies in law school just because I insist on being myself...)
And sometimes my refusal to accept mainstream thinking has led others to label me as one who "thinks outside the box." I've run into a few lawyers who actually respect that about me (suprisingly)...but they dont see it for what it really is...I just have my own ideas...my nonconformist streak...etc. ::rainbow::
Oh and Frod...Thanks...I hope you are right...I want to be a good lawyer. (less than a year to go).
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Heavy shit. Str8 was a 23 month long fuckin' war for me. i make the apology of one who has known his enemy and fought long and hard only to face defeat.
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On 2005-09-16 08:58:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Str8 was a 23 month long fuckin' war for me"
Well its obvious that you are winning that war....Being in straight was just the beginning........and seriously, I'll say it again, even though I dont expect apologies from most people who went through straight...this is just my opinion-and I do realize that my opinion is shaped in part by my experience in straight...just as your opinions are shaped in part by your experience in straight. Its clear to me that my experience was vastly different from yours there...
And...If you feel the need to, then by all means, if it gives you peace, then its the right thing for you to do. ::rainbow::
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On 2005-09-16 08:58:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Heavy shit. Str8 was a 23 month long fuckin' war for me. i make the apology of one who has known his enemy and fought long and hard only to face defeat.
"
Such is life... :smokin:
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On 2005-09-16 09:42:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
On 2005-09-16 08:58:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Heavy shit. Str8 was a 23 month long fuckin' war for me. i make the apology of one who has known his enemy and fought long and hard only to face defeat.
Such is life... ::rainbow::
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On 2005-09-16 10:10:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"On 2005-09-16 09:42:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
On 2005-09-16 08:58:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"Heavy shit. Str8 was a 23 month long fuckin' war for me. i make the apology of one who has known his enemy and fought long and hard only to face defeat.
Such is life... ::rainbow:: "
FREEDOM :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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:skull:
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I think signing that petition and writing those letters to congress is a great was to start taking some power back!
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Down with that wet noodle, jus' don' lay any of that stepcraft on me. :smile:
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As I have metioned in other posts, my interests often put me with other native people in this area. One of my nick names in that circle of friends is ~ Colors Outside the Lines. I think thats similar to "thinking outside the box"
Anyhow NCL , you reminded me of that this afternoon and made me smile, ty ::rainbow::
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:03 ]
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Damn!! This board is intense. Thanks "anon" for makin' me think. :grin: Peace.
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:03 ]
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On 2005-09-16 13:39:00, Withdraw wrote:
"hey! Which "anon"? LOL .. they all look the same you know :wink: "
I resemble that remark
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NCL, I always thought that the avatar that you ended up picking was one of the sexiest in the bunch.
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On 2005-09-16 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NCL, I always thought that the avatar that you ended up picking was one of the sexiest in the bunch."
I didn't have "that looks sexy" in my mind when I picked it but....let's just say I chose my user name and avatar carefully...to represent myself accurately...I'll leave it at that...glad you like it....::rainbow::
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On 2005-09-16 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NCL, I always thought that the avatar that you ended up picking was one of the sexiest in the bunch."
I disagree anon - I think Withdraw has the hottest Avatar
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On 2005-09-16 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As I have metioned in other posts, my interests often put me with other native people in this area. One of my nick names in that circle of friends is ~ Colors Outside the Lines. I think thats similar to "thinking outside the box"
Anyhow NCL , you reminded me of that this afternoon and made me smile, ty ::rainbow::"
Withdraw-----I assume you have more fully explained this in other posts? If so, what threads? I may have missed them somehow...I would like to read them.
And BTW, "Colors Outside the Lines" does make sense to me. ::rainbow::
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On 2005-09-16 14:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-16 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NCL, I always thought that the avatar that you ended up picking was one of the sexiest in the bunch."
I disagree anon - I think Withdraw has the hottest Avatar"
Fuck you anon! You don't know what your talking about!
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Withdraw, you got the sexiest avatar in this town. :smokin: :skull:
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[ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-09-22 23:04 ]
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On 2005-09-16 14:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-16 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"NCL, I always thought that the avatar that you ended up picking was one of the sexiest in the bunch."
I disagree anon - I think Withdraw has the hottest Avatar"
You guys are crazy-----it's Dr Fucktard who's hottest!
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All these anons are faceless cowards! All you teenage forniscating devils are! :flame: If you don't think I can sue you--- I got something to sell you. Talk bad about a program and I will be there ready to sue all of you. You obviously all got out of your programs too early, you crack smoking bastards. Karen is here to lay down some smackdown. Who wants to be sued... WHO?!?! :flame: :flame:
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On 2005-09-16 20:04:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"All these anons are faceless cowards! All you teenage forniscating devils are! ::puke::
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Yeah !!!!! :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2005-09-16 20:20:00, Nonconformistlaw wrote:
"On 2005-09-16 20:04:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"All these anons are faceless cowards! All you teenage forniscating devils are! :nworthy:
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Welcome to the board, Karen. :tup:
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Have a seat, Karen.....lmao!
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
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I'll put a fucking crowbar in your overspent mullet there for ye. Or take your pick bud. How 'bout a beach shovel in your sandy skull? Would you like that?
I'll even throw some spunk at you.
I learned these things from training in Straight and while you openly advocate it here for me. I can't be held liable b/c the courts deem these actions insanity and defense.
"Its premeditated since you said you w0uld do it before you did it".
Nah. Necessary defensive action automatically excludes me from being charged with any offense where my attacker is a known entity and I am in Constant fear of anyone kidnapping me again, especially anyone who says they are pro child abuse or for Straight Inc and for doing harm to me the way it was done back in the day. Go fig. That's how I get away with it. Another way of saying this is that several people have already deemed it right, on many of the different forums here, that what went on in Straight was good - thus making it legally righteous for me to defend myself in any manner I deem appropriate. Total evisceration of you is my manner for the day. I welcome the court case. Would you like a bullet in your skull?!?
Give me your address please.
Hi Karen.
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For the record, I posted that last post and all the rest of them. There are only one anonymous postors ever here. me. tappety tap on your asshole.
The truth is that its a toss up between NonConformistLaw and Froderik who have the sexiest Avatars on here. This is because Avatars who wear bandanas are so fucking sexy, it just soothes out of the hair stuff they wear. Check 'em out.
Whoever wins my Avatar contest will receive a free PS1 from me. You are responsible for shipping, I will send it payondelivery (the PS1 DOES work, mkay!?!) shouldn't be more than a five bux bitch, but I will send it to you. Send your avatar to me on
[email protected]
I will judge on
1. accesories: including such things as penisbirds, glasses, bandanas, etc.
2. universality and symbolism: does your avatar convey a message that can be used for a few years, or is your avatar clever in some way or many ways.
3. pixelation: does your avatar suck? which one is the cleanest of pixelations and draw? Does it make sense.
4. Fornits usability: does your avatar fit particular and overall user friendliness for messages conveyed for Fornits. (this portion of judgement really is sorta bullshit since fornits has a wide array of topics ranging from child abuse to your mother's job).
5. Description: give up some kind of description in as many words as you choose about why you chose your avatar. I will judge on correct spelling of your little brief essay. If you just thought your avatar would be cute, or clever or w/e ... state that. Don't be stupid; or be stupid ...up to you. This description should also include the name you have chosen, if any, for yourself on fornits.
You can enter as many times as you like, but don't let's please be a shit head about it. Okay? It's not like an old ps1 is really that much of a deal. But you'll enter since you've never won a dammed thing in your fucking life.
If you can think of any other areas that I should consider for judging avatars, let me know, okay?!?
My next contest I will give the winner a free year stay at Fucktard's new v2.0 Straight Inc. I'll pay for all of it.
I'll keep you informed of the contest results as I go along.
Oh, do please tell me, KareninDallas, what program to talk shit about so that I can start talking shit and digging up dirt on the particular progam in question. Hi. hi, karendancinginyourass.
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Hey NCL
The name straight met its demise, but straight is totally still going on, in cohorts with the DFAF. I believe Phoenix, growing together are some of the straights that are still in existence...motivating, oldcomers, belt-loops, the whole bit.
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On 2005-09-17 16:40:00, shady grove wrote:
"Hey NCL
The name straight met its demise, but straight is totally still going on, in cohorts with the DFAF. I believe Phoenix, growing together are some of the straights that are still in existence...motivating, oldcomers, belt-loops, the whole bit."
Yeah, I know. :sad: I could have been clearer about that.
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On 2005-09-17 16:40:00, shady grove wrote:
"Hey NCL
The name straight met its demise, but straight is totally still going on, in cohorts with the DFAF. I believe Phoenix, growing together are some of the straights that are still in existence...motivating, oldcomers, belt-loops, the whole bit."
get your facts straight.
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enlighten us
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what the anon is saying there sg is that you should sound more sure of yourself when you say things like that. leave out the "I believe."
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incorrectamundo. motivating and beltloops, not necesariamentado.
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if you have evidence of the DFAF cohorting with a still totally going on Straight, your words not mine, please hand over evidence under the rules of disclosure. get that shady? fuckin hog these documents, you will not be pleased with the results. post them here, NOW.
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Whoa, people. I have nothing to hand over. Everything I'm talking about I read here. I did not know I was in a court of law.
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Bullshit, hand that shit over NOW, motherfukker.
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On 2005-09-18 20:05:00, shady grove wrote:
"Whoa, people. I have nothing to hand over. Everything I'm talking about I read here. I did not know I was in a court of law."
There is a lesson to be learned here. Class dismissed.
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You are calling me a motherfucker? Are you serious? That was are you 15?
Have to go...
I have a crack-head to coerce into putting down his rock-pipe and believing everything I tell him.
:rofl:
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On 2005-09-18 00:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"if you have evidence of the DFAF cohorting with a still totally going on Straight, your words not mine, please hand over evidence under the rules of disclosure. get that shady? fuckin hog these documents, you will not be pleased with the results. post them here, NOW. "
Here's a lead:
http://www.thestraights.com/news/#jeb-dfaf (http://www.thestraights.com/news/#jeb-dfaf)
You can try contacting Wes for hard copies or follow up his reference notes.Harmlessly passing your time in the grasslands away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
you better watchout,
there may be dogs about.
I've looked over Jordan, and have seen.
Things are not what they seem.
--Roger Waters 1977
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Thank you Antigen for the rescue.
I knew I didn't make that up.
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np
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2005-09-08 22:05:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"i want to apologize to everyone i hurt while i was in Str8. i'm sorry that i restrained you. i'm sorry that i yelled at you. i'm sorry that i laughed at you. i'm sorry that i didn't stand up and defend you. i'm jus' so fuckin' sorry."
Hey everybody.....I just wanted to tag on to what pirate had wrote a while back. When this post first come out I had the mentallity of "it was what it was". Over the past little bit of time I've had to reflect I do have some sincere regret for some of my actions. Punching and kicking people when I was mis-behaving, restraining others and being an asshole when I did it and most of all for grabbing a guy named Scott Nalls by the throat while I was mis-behaving and he was "changing".
Today I am truely sorry for my actions back then.
Thanks....Doc