Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: sad on June 02, 2010, 01:56:54 AM
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Does residential treatment really help or is it a waste of money?
Any particular residential you've had success with?
Two names were mentioned as being highly successful: La Europa and New Haven (in Utah)
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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"Residential" really helps many times ... but it also can be a waste of money, or less frequently can be counterproductive. A minority of residential/emotional growth/therapeutic schools may be harmful - including a surprising (to me) number of state-run places.
Many times, a residential program is appropriate, even the only/best choice. However, few posters here will admit that, and some will assert all are bad. However, no program/school is right for everyone, so you can't make a good judgment without looking into needs and options. So .. I can tell you that New Haven is a good school, but it may be totally wrong for your daughter. I know one small operator of excellent programs whose programs differ significantly from each other because the needs of varied students can't be met with just one approach.
I'd offer to make suggestions if given more details, but that won't happen easily on this board.
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Edit: I suspected samefaggotry, but previous poster is apparently a lurker jumping on the first available newbie who said the magic words.
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Thing is, the Dept of Education is offering me Harmony Heights, lake grove, West Park, Saint Ann Institute,
It seems this is their list: http://www.vesid.nysed.gov/specialed/pr ... 53inhl.htm (http://www.vesid.nysed.gov/specialed/privateschools/853inhl.htm)
I have a hunch these places won't be as therapeutic as I'd like.
Therefore I'm looking into other placements, such as the ones I've heard of so far: New Haven, La Europa. I'm talking about a child with complex trauma and no criminal record, but severely psychologically damaged, and needs caring and supportive folks to help her heal.
I'd need to reject the Dept. of Ed's options, provide them with reasons why I am rejecting them, then ask them to pay for a placement of my choice. got it?
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I'm talking about a child with complex trauma and no criminal record, but severely psychologically damaged, and needs caring and supportive folks to help her heal.
Little information to go on. Age? Heal from what? Where are her parents, or are they the problem? Why a residential program v. outpatient?
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age between 12-16; I don't want to be specific on a public forum.
Outpatient has been attempted and things deteriorated. We are looking to transition from wilderness to residential. She has done nice healing in wilderness but it's only the tip of the iceberg. I want a good residential place that can continue the work and hoping that within a year or less she can be functional enough to return to her family.
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and needs caring and supportive folks to help her heal.
Yeah too bad she doesn't have any of THOSE around, huh? Especially not you.
ask them to pay for a placement of my choice. got it?
So, wait, let's get this right- you want Fornits members to help you tell the school district to not send her to an "eh" facility like Harmony Heights or one of the other special-ed institutions, so you can send her to some real shithole like New Haven (http://http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/newhavensucks/)?
I'm tempted to just go full-bore "Get the fuck out of here", but you seem more clueless than anything, so I'll just ask: do you have any idea what the fuck you are getting into here? Any at all? Have you even taken a look at the Aspen forum, or wiki.fornits.com, or any of the other information available all over the place?
She was mentally traumatized by something or other, and you're compounding the problem by sending her to known shitholes, which themselves require years upon years of real therapy to recover from.
Oh, and see this list in my sig, here? Think this list is make-believe or sometime in the far past? Want to take a guess where these kids died?
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age between 12-16; I don't want to be specific on a public forum.
Outpatient has been attempted and things deteriorated. We are looking to transition from wilderness to residential. She has done nice healing in wilderness but it's only the tip of the iceberg. I want a good residential place that can continue the work and hoping that within a year or less she can be functional enough to return to her family.
Without being more specific (don't know why you can't...it's not like you're using her name) I don't really have any suggestions.
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and needs caring and supportive folks to help her heal.
Yeah too bad she doesn't have any of THOSE around, huh? Especially not you.
ask them to pay for a placement of my choice. got it?
So, wait, let's get this right- you want Fornits members to help you tell the school district to not send her to an "eh" facility like Harmony Heights or one of the other special-ed institutions, so you can send her to some real shithole like New Haven (http://http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/newhavensucks/)?
I'm tempted to just go full-bore "Get the fuck out of here", but you seem more clueless than anything, so I'll just ask: do you have any idea what the fuck you are getting into here? Any at all? Have you even taken a look at the Aspen forum, or wiki.fornits.com, or any of the other information available all over the place?
She was mentally traumatized by something or other, and you're compounding the problem by sending her to known shitholes, which themselves require years upon years of real therapy to recover from.
Oh, and see this list in my sig, here? Think this list is make-believe or sometime in the far past? Want to take a guess where these kids died?
Pile STFU for a minute and listen and stop reacting. Jesus your like a kid.
Danny
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SAD - search for a clinically based rtc. I've not done such a search myself, but do know the sort of place I have in mind. I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.
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I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.
Would those condemnations happen to include verified relationships between its founders and programs that have been shut down for abuse, links to lengthy testimonies of abuse on this very site about said programs, dead kids as the result of said programs (Guaranteed 100% Certified DEAD!), or a combination of all three?
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SAD - search for a clinically based rtc. I've not done such a search myself, but do know the sort of place I have in mind. I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.
Hey, if they're legit I'm sure they'll be able to hold up to scrutiny, right? Right???
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if they're legit I'm sure they'll be able to hold up to scrutiny, right?
I'm sure Pile will fabricate something "from whole cloth" and demand that it be disproven. It just isn't worth it. It would be so much more equitable to prove abuse on anything like a current basis instead of citing 30-year old events and instead of ignoring any possibility of accidents or any possibility that the enrollees would be at greater risk elsewhere - say, on the streets selling their bodies or committing robberies for drug money.
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I'm sure Pile will fabricate something "from whole cloth" and demand that it be disproven. It just isn't worth it.
In other words, because I have independent links to back this up, most from third-party news organizations and some from various survivors on Fornits with detailed experiences. Gotcha.
It would be so much more equitable to prove abuse on anything like a current basis instead of citing 30-year old events
Cedu shutdown? 2005. HLA lawsuits? A few years ago, those took a while. Sagewalk shutdown due to another dead kid? MBA shutdown due to serious abuse? Last year, both of them. Culmination of Peninsula Village lawsuits, resulting in its sale? Last year. Dead kids in the Pile? All within the last decade.
Try again, that dog don't hunt.
and instead of ignoring any possibility of accidents
Sure, ignoring Brendan Blum's cries of agony as he died, screaming, from his bowel infarction was an accident. Whatever you tell yourself to sleep at night.
or any possibility that the enrollees would be at greater risk elsewhere - say, on the streets selling their bodies or committing robberies for drug money.
Hey look, it's deadorinjail! Hi deadorinjail! Haven't seen you in a while. Wasn't expecting you to get so desperate so quick, walkedthere- you're out already?
Sure your kid would be more dangerous doing crimes out on the street. She'd also be in more danger walking around in Somalia, or playing DDR above a pit full of lava, or [insert unlikely scenario here]... But your kids would also be much safer at home, seeing a real psychiatrist on a regular basis, or possibly following the IEP/recommendations of your school than it would be to trust her with program nutjobs.
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SAD - search for a clinically based rtc. I've not done such a search myself, but do know the sort of place I have in mind. I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.
Hey, if they're legit I'm sure they'll be able to hold up to scrutiny, right? Right???
I don’t think it a matter of if they could hold up to scrutiny or not. Most of the readers have been here when someone says "xyz program is a good one". People start posting pictures of “the hobbit”, mind control techniques from 1930’s Germany, kids laying face down on concrete in South America, the guy who was duct taped and thrown into the ocean during a typhoon….lol. Very little if any honest discussion takes place.
The same if someone named a good public high school and we all started posting pictures of Columbine highschool and showing kids who were dead or carrying guns. “Pile of dead kids” could start a public highschool list….lol. Kids who died in car accidents on their way to school or raped/beaten by their teacher.
Or we could ask the name of the best fast food restaurant and if someone said McDonalds we could present evidence that kids died in various McDonalds across the country or choked on a hamburger or burned their crotch with hot coffee. Managers who fondled the customers. Ha,Ha,Ha
I think you could quickly see that it detracts from the discussion and it is best to PM the names and keep the specifics out of the thread, at least for this discussion. Also once a program seems like a good fit you can ask to speak to other parents who had kids graduate from the school so you can get a better picture of whether it will be a good fit for your child or not. But fornits isn’t a good place to discuss the benefits of a specific program.
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Ah, and it's the resident non-sequitur champion. We're talking about programs, Whooter, not public school or McDonald's or anything else you might decide to bring up that has random bad things happen with no particular pattern. Try to keep up.
And of course you don't want to discuss specific programs. Why? 'Cause then somebody might post a relevant link to the details of said program, showing what goes on in there! Or relevant links detailing the exploits of the people who worked there since it's just a rework of a program we've seen before. All that referral money, right out the window, and if anyone Googles they'll have a good chance of finding the topic- and then the program has to change its name yet again...
Whooter. Seriously. Saying that you don't want something talked about in public is transparent as fuck.
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Ah, and it's the resident non-sequitur champion. We're talking about programs, Whooter, not public school or McDonald's or anything else you might decide to bring up that has random bad things happen with no particular pattern. Try to keep up.
And of course you don't want to discuss specific programs. Why? 'Cause then somebody might post a relevant link to the details of said program, showing what goes on in there! Or relevant links detailing the exploits of the people who worked there since it's just a rework of a program we've seen before. All that referral money, right out the window, and if anyone Googles they'll have a good chance of finding the topic- and then the program has to change its name yet again...
Whooter. Seriously. Saying that you don't want something talked about in public is transparent as fuck.
awwwww,I am sorry, Did I hurt your feelings? Why not go count your pile of kids again while we discuss. I think you will feel better.
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"Pile of Dead Kids" may have come on a bit strong, but I see his/her ( I think, his) point.
Why is the solution to send kids away? You get a headache, you take an aspirin. Your kid has problems, you send them away.
I honestly, cannot see how a wilderness camp ACTUALLY helped a 12 year old. If you really came here, looking for advice. here is mine.
Don't give up so easily on your kid or your self. Your child is not a problem to be solved. Why do so many parents give up so easily, as if raising their own kids is not their own responsibility. My advice is stay in there, stay strong, stick with your child. Do your best, and don t expect it to be easy. get help and guidance from everyone you can who seems to do well with their own kids.
When you send a kid away, you are giving up on them, and you are telling them that there is something wrong with them, and that they are not like other kids.... and then that s just the beginning... then the program fucks with them.
Paul
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Interesting perspective Paul. Personally I haven’t met any parent who has given up on their kids or thrown in the towel on parenting. I dont see sending a child to a program as giving up on them. It is actually the opposite. When a child is sent to a program it is typically the final step or last resort after all other possibilities have been tried and/or exhausted.
Like you said you don’t send your kid away for a headache, you give them an aspirin. If the headache continues the next day you may keep them home from school and rest.. monitor their temperature. You may then seek advice outside the home if the pain continues and take them to see a doctor. But the hospital doesn’t view you as a parent who gave up parenting because you looked outside the home for help. They view you as caring parent. The parent that tries everything and then doesn’t seek help outside the home is the one who is giving up. If that same child needed to have surgery and spend time in a hospital the parents would not be made to feel they failed as parents because someone else is caring for their child. They would not feel like they gave up.
Parents should always continue to try to seek help for their child and not be ashamed to look outside the home. This includes "all" children not just those children who are at-risk.
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Whooter, I personally do no know of any good programs. I know of a lot of very bad ones though.
I think that people who send their kids away are giving up on them. and they are giving up on themselves. It is the easy solution. Throw the kid in the air and hope they land on their feet. I give this woman credit for at least investigating first, it shows me that she cares.. that is why I gave her my advice.
II think it is a quick fix like an aspirin, except that it is a quick fix that does not work.
Paul
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Whooter, I personally do no know of any good programs. I know of a lot of very bad ones though.
I think that is why you have the views that you do. I think if I only knew of kids who failed in programs or did not do well I would have a negative view myself. So I can understand your perspective.
I think that people who send their kids away are giving up on them. and they are giving up on themselves. It is the easy solution. Throw the kid in the air and hope they land on their feet. I give this woman credit for at least investigating first, it shows me that she cares.. that is why I gave her my advice.
II think it is a quick fix like an aspirin, except that it is a quick fix that does not work. Paul
Thats okay, Paul, you have seen alot of bad programs and therfore view them as failures. I have seen families struggle and exhaust all local options before trying a residential solution and then see their children do very well and head down a healthy path. A lot of what we believe in or don't believe depends on our individual experiences and exposure to others. So I dont knock you for your opinion since you have only been exposed to bad programs.
Imagine for a moment the religious groups or society who do not believe in doctors or medicine at all (not just Therapy) and one of them has a sick child and decides to break away from the group and seek help outside their community and see a doctor. They are judged just like you are judging others and saying they are giving up. They do this because they have not seen first hand how doctors can help people. They rely on very one sided information like you have to reach their conclusions.
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does residential really help and which one is good
Yes it really helps, and almost every one is good. The programs people talk about on fornits are almost all out of business for many years. The average poster on fornits was in treatment 25 years ago. Treatment programs have evolved and now there are options to satisfy the needs of all parents. There's only a handful of posters here, and go ahead and ask them what year they were 'abused' and how exactly they were 'abused', the rest is just scare tactics. 99.99% of kids who went through treatment are doing great, the 00.01% that do not do well end up posting here. But even some of them end up doing well, for example Manne Bonney lives a life of fun and sun, beaches and boating.
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Here in Denmark all treatment are paid by the tax-payers, even religious rehab program have been public financed until journalists digged into their methods. Sad to say here in Denmark a rehab facility can be started by everyone without any demand to the quality. The law demands that an addict can get treatment for free and choose whatever rehab program they like and then they can go down with the bill to the nearest social service department and get a refund. Of course this have made the employees in various social service department phoning the nearest journalist when they suspect faul play so we can get good stories and criminal cases as entertainment. We all know that both the patient and the taxpayers will pay if some is not doing their job good enough.
Recently the number of residental places for minors have dropped. As it is the case in the States we have a crisis and this have lead to a huge research if it can be done as good with home based services as with residential services. The answer is that only 5% of the minors being placed in residential treatment years ago needs residential treatment if you provide homebased treatment instead.
Is it cheaper with homebased treatment? Yes, it is.
Start calculate a little. Take a typical high school. How many do end up in various residential programs? What is the summarized costs for all the students? What if the school saw to that all these parents met and they could hire a number of social workers combined with volunteers to aid them?
Here you can hire 1-2 people with the qualifications of an ordinary staffer for the money it cost to have just one kid in residential treatment. What is the monthly pay for one counselor in the States? Is it cheaper than the 300-400 dollars per day it costs to have a minor in a wilderness program? Could 5-10 families with aid from the school administration create their own wilderness program where they go out in the fields for a week or two with counselors?
As I see it the biggest problem in the state is that each family sees their own case as an isolated case. Having a so-called troubled kid is tabu. The neighbor could have the same problem and they don't know.
We have decided to talk openly about it and it has become a kind of rite of passage for parents to teenagers that they should join the night owls and walk the streets where teens party to hand out condoms, place themselves between youth who wants to fight, look the drug dealers angry in the eyes as a group and send the youth home by taxi or phone the parents when an youth have too much to drink. Parents in Denmark know that they are not the only one who is challenged, so why not join forces?
However, residential treatment can be an option if you have no adults in the home who wants to be the parent. Maybe they want to but can't. In such cases the teenager must be placed in a better home and it can be foster parents or a boarding school.
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As for handing out condoms: It works. We had 927 teenage pregnancies out of a population of 5,000,000 people.
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Try reading Judith Herman's Trauma and recovery It is the semina text on trauma
also perry's The Boy who was raised as a dog
also Child abuse trauma by John Briere
Children recovering from trauma often have trouble verbalizing their feelings. So they act them out. Further rejection or percieved rejection (like going to live somewhere else) makes things worse for them. Often a further problem for trauma victims of all ages is that therapy can be a 2 edged sword. Often adults who seek out trauma therapy voluntarily experience a temporary backward slide if dealing with other issues like anger management or addiction because revisiting the trauma is very stressful for them. A confronting approach makes things really bad. A very skilled therapist is needed. With this in mind it is even more difficult for the reluctant patient.
Be aware that the europa emphasises group therapy and most trauma victims struggle with 1 on 1 therapy, so find a group situation worse. Also be aware the families are asked to participate in an Arbinger seminar. This is run by a separate corporate organization. It beleives in "confronting self deception" I dont know what this means but trauma victims do not like confrontation. For this to happen publically at a seminar is a terrible idea.
Finally ask the "master level therapists" if they have read Briere, Herman or Perry. Ask what they know of the child trauma institute. If they dont know much this is a bad sign. If they do ask why they have compulsory group therapy or how an addictions model applies to the traumatized child. They should know that it doesnt.
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I'd even name some if I didn't expect to bring on another wave of condemnations.
Would those condemnations happen to include verified relationships between its founders and programs that have been shut down for abuse, links to lengthy testimonies of abuse on this very site about said programs, dead kids as the result of said programs (Guaranteed 100% Certified DEAD!), or a combination of all three?
No just another comment in a long line of comments coming from a jaded young kid needing to play his role. Your doing a great job, "Sean Hannity" would be proud for your ability to sell. Left wing nut.
Don't bother pointing out the obvious, I know. Just Sean does such a great job of selling and you remind me of him.
Danny
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does residential really help and which one is good
Yes it really helps, and almost every one is good. The programs people talk about on fornits are almost all out of business for many years. The average poster on fornits was in treatment 25 years ago. Treatment programs have evolved and now there are options to satisfy the needs of all parents. There's only a handful of posters here, and go ahead and ask them what year they were 'abused' and how exactly they were 'abused', the rest is just scare tactics. 99.99% of kids who went through treatment are doing great, the 00.01% that do not do well end up posting here. But even some of them end up doing well, for example Manne Bonney lives a life of fun and sun, beaches and boating.
Don't listen to this person.. be safe. I don t know about all these new programs. Are there good ones I don t know.. But this post is not realistic in any way, and it can lead you to believe that all programs are great. This isn't true.
yes, many of the programs have evolved. They have no choice. Society would not put up with their bullshit anymore. These programs, which have evolved however, are still based on the same foundational principles, which means that even though they may not be so overtly damaging, they don t work and will waste your time.
It is true, that unless you put your kid in a program in some other country, the danger is far less then once it was, and there is very little chance that your daughter will experience anything like what is in most posts on this thread, but still, if you love yyour kid caution is advisable.
Something to take into account that people do not very often, is this:
These older programs- they were in a time period where what is considered domestic abuse today, was once considered discpline. Kids actually walked to school back then, and climbed trees, and fought eachother, rather then go on play dates, and fight in video games.
In no way whatsoever, am I trying to take away from what people experiecned 25 years ago, but I will say, that they were better prepared for it.
Your kid, most kids today, would lose their fucking minds in a day at one of these old centers... but these ne places though not as harsh can still be harmful to them.
This poster attempting to set you at ease, and make you think that everyone here are the only people who had trouble in programs, neglects to mention all the people who are dead or in jail.
I know of young people who have went to programs in my area, very recently with no results. They just would have been better off not going.
Paul
PS My knowledge is very limited on brand new programs, as in recently made from the ground floor up.
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My niece attended a wilderness program and therapeutic boarding school 2006-2009--very "reputable" big-name programs which we were told were "the best." They did nothing to help her with her learning disabilities, and created an unusually dependent young woman who relies on her parents for every dime and nearly every decision.
Coming home was always presented as being just around the corner--this spring, well maybe this summer, no wait, maybe October, oh well she's having anger issues, maybe in the spring--and on and on and on and on and on. In the end, she was kept from ALL of her family except parents, including siblings, for more than 3 years. No letters, phone calls or visits. She was not even permitted to come home for the funeral of a family member she adored.
The experience ripped our family apart. The years of threats and accusations and resentments by her parents toward anyone who questioned them will not likely ever be repaired.
There's no "used to be bad" about these programs. They are abusive by their very design. The State of Oregon agrees with me: in October they found that program methods at Mount Bachelor Academy met the Oregon definition of "child abuse"--methods used widely in programs across the country--and they shut the program down.
Don't be a fool. Parents and teens can and do survive the teen years together, at home, all the time. Repeat: You can and will survive this if you stick together as a family. Do not let a program rush you into a decision by stoking your fears.
Auntie Em
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My niece attended a wilderness program and therapeutic boarding school 2006-2009--very "reputable" big-name programs which we were told were "the best." They did nothing to help her with her learning disabilities, and created an unusually dependent young woman who relies on her parents for every dime and nearly every decision.
Coming home was always presented as being just around the corner--this spring, well maybe this summer, no wait, maybe October, oh well she's having anger issues, maybe in the spring--and on and on and on and on and on. In the end, she was kept from ALL of her family except parents, including siblings, for more than 3 years. No letters, phone calls or visits. She was not even permitted to come home for the funeral of a family member she adored.
The experience ripped our family apart. The years of threats and accusations and resentments by her parents toward anyone who questioned them will not likely ever be repaired.
There's no "used to be bad" about these programs. They are abusive by their very design. The State of Oregon agrees with me: in October they found that program methods at Mount Bachelor Academy met the Oregon definition of "child abuse"--methods used widely in programs across the country--and they shut the program down.
Don't be a fool. Parents and teens can and do survive the teen years together, at home, all the time. Repeat: You can and will survive this if you stick together as a family. Do not let a program rush you into a decision by stoking your fears.
Auntie Em
Thanks auntiEm2, There are stories like yours and it is unfortunate. But we cannot forget the 10’s of thousands of kids who are helped every year and placed back on a healthy path. Those who attend Therapeutic Boarding Schools which are geared towards building self esteem. They can tell tell you up front what to expect as far as length of time the child is expected to stay.
What helps to prevent a child from being placed in a program which is not a good fit is to contact the program and ask to speak with parents who have had kids graduate from the program. This will allow you to ask some really tough questions and get some honest answers.
Another thing which would help is if the programs were required to get a third party sign-off on all kids entering the program.
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
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ahem.... Whooter?
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
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^ "The Truth" @ Academy Swift River
Wow that brings back memories…..When I was young we use to call them “all nighters”. The only difference was you didn’t want to sleep from 5 to 7 because your ass would be dragging all day. If you held out till about 11:oo am and slept for 2-4 hours then you were good for the rest of the day with no problem. It would be interesting to see if this was changed or not.
Its amazing what you could do when you were young. I would never make it past 4 or 5 am now.
Its great that people have preserved this stuff. I wonder if anyone has a full program which outlines all the steps the kids go through. That would be good to have.
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
...
That is great! And interesting to read. But, why did YOU not teach her that? I see nothing in your list that would not be not possible to achieve at home.....
I really do not get it....
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
...
That is great! And interesting to read. But, why did YOU not teach her that? I see nothing in your list that would not be not possible to achieve at home.....
I really do not get it....
Ha,Ha,Ha, I agree....Looks basic doesnt it! I watched a video of a heart Transplant once and there wasnt anything that they did that I couldnt do. I could probably take over for the doctor after watching that.
We can teach our kids math and language at home, reset broken bones, put on casts, measure eye sight, perform hearing tests, cut their hair, make their clothes etc. Its all very basic stuff. Why dont we do it?
...
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I could never perform surgery or anything like that...I am not a doctor.
But I am a parent and everything on your list was my "job description" :)
I am surprised ...do your really think you would not be able to do the same?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I could never perform surgery or anything like that...I am not a doctor.
But I am a parent and everything on your list was my "job description" :)
I am surprised ...do your really think you would not be able to do the same?
I have raised several children and they all turned out well. We instilled a healthy self esteem in them. I had one that needed outside help. How did that come to be? I really don't know the cause. Out of all my children only one of them requires glasses. Another required Speech therapy. All our children are different and we responded to their individual needs differently and compassionately.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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I see. Well I had many sleepless nights thinking about why my daughter had such a difficult puberty. (My son was a piece of cake in comparisson LOL).
I did not find the answer to that . I only did what I felt was right and made many mistakes on the way...but we did succeed. At least I hope, she is 18 so there is still a lot of growing up to do. But I did not give up on her, that was the foundation to our relationship today...
And I was never alone in this - my husband, my friends, without them I would be lost.
You know, I wonder how did the previous generations raise their children? I mean before this industry became so popular in the USA.
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I see. Well I had many sleepless nights thinking about why my daughter had such a difficult puberty. (My son was a piece of cake in comparisson LOL).
I did not find the answer to that . I only did what I felt was right and made many mistakes on the way...but we did succeed. At least I hope, she is 18 so there is still a lot of growing up to do. But I did not give up on her, that was the foundation to our relationship today...
And I was never alone in this - my husband, my friends, without them I would be lost.
You know, I wonder how did the previous generations raise their children? I mean before this industry became so popular in the USA.
I think communication, open mindedness and trust are a few of the keys to raising healthy, happy and successful children. You are fortunate, Maruska and looking back we have been fortunate also (so far). We both succeeded in raising our children and this reinforces the fact that each parent needs to take a different path depending on the challenges their children bring.
Life was much simpler in past generations, I think. Each generation just had to do the best they could with the resources available to them.
...
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
...
That is great! And interesting to read. But, why did YOU not teach her that? I see nothing in your list that would not be not possible to achieve at home.....
I really do not get it....
Yes, maruska, it is great, but unfortunately, it's also fiction.
Whooter has already admitted that his daughter estranged herself from him and as soon as she got home she went right back to heavy drinking and drugging immediately with all of her old friends.
He also neglects to mention that when she got home she also dropped out of high school and didn't even finish that.
So, these tales of happiness, joy and success are just part of Whooter's program marketing and not actually real or part of his story. People should know this when reading Whooter's drivel.
The scariest part of Whooter's response? He didn't then, and still does not now know anything they did to his daughter at ASR and he's fine with that. This is classic Machiavellian logic: the ends justify the means. For all he knows, this "change" happened due to "S&M therapy" at ASR. He doesn't know and doesn't care.
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In addition, he obfuscates the all night experential called The Truth, comparing it to a study all-nighter. This could not be further from the truth. The all night experential is an encounter group - it is harmful, abusive psychodrama using sleep deprivation to help break down the kids' defenses and boundaries.
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Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
Learning about "self-esteem" at the Academy at Swift River, from "Tough love may be a little too tough (http://http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)" (by Stephanie Kraft; June 24, 2006; Valley Advocate):
...On occasion, Kent had to get equipment from a maintenance closet next to a room that by September was being used for communication sessions. Often he heard the staff members who conducted the sessions shouting at the students; once, he said, he heard one of them yell at a student, "You fucking bastard!" Another time, Kent said, "I observed Brett Carey when he was literally hoarse after one of these sessions." Carey, who had been the dean of student life at ASR, is no longer at the school.
At other times, Kent saw students compelled to do degrading make-work as punishment. One time, he said, he saw a girl forced to spend an entire day scrubbing a staircase with a toothbrush. He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays.
"I was instructed repeatedly on paper to prepare very minimal meals for these overnights," Kent said. "I would put up carrot sticks, celery sticks, crackers, cheese, hummus, a few turkey sandwiches, and this plate would be sufficient for two mealtimes. Then I would send a very light breakfast. The staff would have bagels and cream cheese, the kids could only have fruit and cereal. I worried about the fact that the food for the staff was different, and I felt that these were very light meals."
Kent worried about whether the food was being rationed on a punish-and-reward basis during the sessions. The question was one of many the Advocate was unable to discuss with ASR officials, who declined to be interviewed about the program...[/list]
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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lol, its funny how it threatens so many peoples' world when any success stories are talked about here. There is so much energy and desperation put into keeping the idea alive that all kids suffer in programs.
Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry. I dont think DSS would even respond unless they were serving alcohol. We had a guy here awhile ago claiming he was abused and it turned out that he was punished by removing the salt and pepper from the table. What if they were all sent to their rooms early would you claim it was abusive because they were being isolated from their peers? Do you see the spin?
Why cant people just tell a credible balanced story of their stay there and be honest about it like:
"The food was horrible and some of the staff were really mean and yelled alot but I made a lot of good friends and one staff in particular helped me thru a rough time. The 2 staff members that were always yelling ended up leaving. Some of my friends made out well but others felt the place was abusive..."
thats a lot more credible than:
"I was kidnapped and sent to a gulag where I was placed in isolation, under restraint with no food. I was abused and all the staff were the same abusive people. Everyone tried to escape. All programs are the same and no one has ever been helped by one ever."
...
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The title of the thread is too broad. Does "residential" really help? Depends on if the person actually needs any "help" in the first place and depends on what type of "residential treatment" they're receiving. Residential can mean medical hospitalization, which is needed in some cases. It can also mean a traditional boarding school, which can be beneficial in some cases. But it can also mean these wilderness camps and the like that use LGATs and/or the positive peer pressure tactic of breaking someone down and building them back up, which isn't good for anyone.
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Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry.
But keeping them up night after night after night is.
"I was kidnapped and sent to a gulag where I was placed in isolation, under restraint with no food. I was abused and all the staff were the same abusive people. Everyone tried to escape.
Yep....that did indeed happen to many of us. Glad you can finally accept it.
All programs are the same and no one has ever been helped by one ever."
The details are important. All programs that utilize confrontation "therapy" are pretty much the same and very often more damage is done than simply doing nothing.
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lol, its funny how it threatens so many peoples' world when any success stories are talked about here. There is so much energy and desperation put into keeping the idea alive that all kids suffer in programs.
Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry. I dont think DSS would even respond unless they were serving alcohol. We had a guy here awhile ago claiming he was abused and it turned out that he was punished by removing the salt and pepper from the table. What if they were all sent to their rooms early would you claim it was abusive because they were being isolated from their peers? Do you see the spin?
The Department of Social Services and Massachusetts Office of Child Care Services did investigate the Academy at Swift River, no alcohol was needed to elicit their response.
ASR was cited for several infractions, which included monitoring students' telephone calls and mail as well as "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
From "Tough love may be a little too tough (http://http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)" (by Stephanie Kraft; June 24, 2006; Valley Advocate):
...At other times, Kent saw students compelled to do degrading make-work as punishment. One time, he said, he saw a girl forced to spend an entire day scrubbing a staircase with a toothbrush. He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays.
"I was instructed repeatedly on paper to prepare very minimal meals for these overnights," Kent said. "I would put up carrot sticks, celery sticks, crackers, cheese, hummus, a few turkey sandwiches, and this plate would be sufficient for two mealtimes. Then I would send a very light breakfast. The staff would have bagels and cream cheese, the kids could only have fruit and cereal. I worried about the fact that the food for the staff was different, and I felt that these were very light meals."
Kent worried about whether the food was being rationed on a punish-and-reward basis during the sessions. The question was one of many the Advocate was unable to discuss with ASR officials, who declined to be interviewed about the program.
Kent had other concerns about the Life Step sessions. He did not witness them, but he heard that the students were kept up most of the night for "therapeutic" group conversations that were a more intense version of the communication sessions he had overheard.
One of the students Kent remembers best was a boy with a talent for drawing, whom he got to know through the mask-making class. One day Kent came to work and the boy was gone. Other staff members said he had been taken from the school in the middle of the previous night and sent west for a wilderness trip. Three weeks later, Kent said, the boy was back, and looking depressed. Another staff member told Kent that when she greeted the student with "Hi, it's nice to have you back," he burst into tears.
Other things worried Kent too. He noticed that the students were not allowed to make telephone calls, even calls to their parents, without a staff member listening, and that their incoming and outgoing mail was read. After he learned that a boy who had broken his collarbone had been forced to move heavy cans and jars and wipe down shelves in the kitchen as punishment for a trifling infraction just a week after being injured, Kent became so worried that he decided to contact the state Department of Social Services about the school's practices. DSS passed the information on to the state Office of Child Care Services, which sent an investigator, Eric Lieberman, to the academy.
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
The Office of Child Care Services' investigators found that the school had not been remiss in getting medical treatment for the student with the broken collarbone, but it did substantiate most of Kent's other concerns. It cited the school for "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
OCCS also cited the school for monitoring students' telephone calls and mail. The agency said that the right to privacy in communications, even for juveniles, can be restricted only by court order -- for example, if a therapist believes that the teen's communication should be monitored, perhaps to support a young person through a crisis in relations with his or her family -- and then only temporarily...[/list]
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry.
But keeping them up night after night after night is.
But you see this is how you get yourself in trouble with your credibility. The post never said the kids were kept up night after night after night. They were kept up all night, allowed to sleep a few hours in the morning (5 till 7?) and then continued until about 2 in the afternoon.
You embellish the facts!
See this is why we question your account of your time in straight. You cant even remember the details of a recent post. How can we believe the details of what you say happened to you 30 years ago.
...
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Ask Whooter about Brett Carey who used to work with his daughter at Academy of Swift River. Brett worked at CEDU Rocky Mountain Academy when I went there from 1990 -1993. These RMA people are like cancer.
Rudy Bentz was the headmaster at ASR at the time and also a CEDU/HLA retread. Ask Whooter about Rudy. He loves the guy. I happen to know Rudy is an abusive animal and drunken vehicular manslaughterer and would never allow him anywhere near my child. But Whooter thinks he's great.
Whooter shouldn't be worried about Anne's credibility either. He should be worried that the story he just told about his daughter is pure fiction and 100% contradicted by his many earlier statements. He's an unabashed liar and just here to shill for programs.
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Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry.
But keeping them up night after night after night is.
But you see this is how you get yourself in trouble with your credibility. The post never said the kids were kept up night after night after night. They were kept up all night, allowed to sleep a few hours in the morning (5 till 7?) and then continued until about 2 in the afternoon.
You embellish the facts!
See this is why we question your account of your time in straight. You cant even remember the details of a recent post. How can we believe the details of what you say happened to you 30 years ago.
From the article quoted in my previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366171#p366165), and originally published less than four years ago, not 30:
"He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays."[/list]
I do believe "night after night after night" is an apt description for "three-day stays." How is this an embellishment of the facts?
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Staying up all night with a bunch of kids your own age isnt abusive, sorry.
But keeping them up night after night after night is.
But you see this is how you get yourself in trouble with your credibility. The post never said the kids were kept up night after night after night. They were kept up all night, allowed to sleep a few hours in the morning (5 till 7?) and then continued until about 2 in the afternoon.
You embellish the facts!
See this is why we question your account of your time in straight. You cant even remember the details of a recent post. How can we believe the details of what you say happened to you 30 years ago.
From the article quoted in my previous post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366171#p366165), and originally published less than four years ago, not 30:
"He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays."[/list]
I do believe "night after night after night" is an apt description for "three-day stays." How is this an embellishment of the facts?
Ursus, don't you know by now that in Who's alternate universe that up is down? Black is white and left is right?
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Of course it says that, Ursus. Kids stay in programs day after day after day, night after night after night. Search the web for any reference you choose. It was a nice back peddle, though, and a good try to cover for Anne.
But the topic we were talking about and the post we were referencing was this one.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Just to be clear this isn’t night , after, night, after night, no matter how you read it or spin it. Its one overnight and they get to sleep from 5 till 7 then finished up around 2 in the afternoon.
Its a clear example of how things get embellished here. If I didnt call you on this the story would grow into a week with no sleep, food or water lol
...
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Of course it says that, Ursus. Kids stay in programs day after day after day, night after night after night. Search the web for any reference you choose. It was a nice back peddle, though, and a good try to cover for Anne.
But the topic we were talking about and the post we were referencing was this one.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Just to be clear this isn’t night , after, night, after night, no matter how you read it or spin it. Its one overnight and they get to sleep from 5 till 7 then finished up around 2 in the afternoon.
Its a clear example of how things get embellished here. If I didnt call you on this the story would grow into a week with no sleep, food or water lol
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OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep??
THAT is abuse. End of story..
I do not think the police can use such a tactic here with criminals...and we are speaking about children!
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It was 1-7 days at regular intervals. The experientials consist of extreme emotional distress. Attack "therapy", EST and Lifespring type therapies... It was pretty traumatic, but you were so happy to be out you literally danced and then gushed about all the Kool Aid you drank.
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Did the parents know?
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Of course it says that, Ursus. Kids stay in programs day after day after day, night after night after night. Search the web for any reference you choose. It was a nice back peddle, though, and a good try to cover for Anne.
But the topic we were talking about and the post we were referencing was this one.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Just to be clear this isn’t night , after, night, after night, no matter how you read it or spin it. Its one overnight and they get to sleep from 5 till 7 then finished up around 2 in the afternoon.
Its a clear example of how things get embellished here. If I didnt call you on this the story would grow into a week with no sleep, food or water lol
NO. I was not referring to "kids stay[ing] in programs day after day after day, night after night after night."
I was referring to group psychodrama sessions which would last 1.5 - 3 days. I also quoted a source, perhaps you missed that. Here it is again, from an excerpt posted previously (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366171#p366165):
"He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays."[/list]
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Of course it says that, Ursus. Kids stay in programs day after day after day, night after night after night. Search the web for any reference you choose. It was a nice back peddle, though, and a good try to cover for Anne.
But the topic we were talking about and the post we were referencing was this one.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Just to be clear this isn’t night , after, night, after night, no matter how you read it or spin it. Its one overnight and they get to sleep from 5 till 7 then finished up around 2 in the afternoon.
Its a clear example of how things get embellished here. If I didnt call you on this the story would grow into a week with no sleep, food or water lol
...
OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep??
THAT is abuse. End of story..
I do not think the police can use such a tactic here with criminals...and we are speaking about children!
Are you sure you have raised teenagers? Mine would go that long without sleep... I remember doing it myself when I was younger. Staying up till 5 in the morning isnt considered abusive in any country that I am aware of.
This is what I mean about redefining the word abuse here. It takes on its own definition.
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
Maruska: Families were treated to occasional demos of these experentials. They were modified for public consumption and total BS.
In my experience, along with other people, parents were kept away from us. We were afraid to tell the truth. Kind of like those polygamy cults in Utah where people are afraid to speak freely. We also drank the KoolAid to make the time go by easier. We were kept geographically apart without access to telephones or uncensored letters. (Our letters were read before they were sent.) All contact was monitored. Our visits occurred once every 3 months on campus.
Staff manipulated parents to keep us there. (For profit!) Staff would play to their fears and say that we would be dead insane or in jail if they let us go. By the way, I was never a drug addict or a criminal or a threat to others. CEDU was the worst place for me. Most of the other kids were just typically rebellious kids. Some were very defiant, but whatever the case may be, trenchant emotional abuse is not the answer.
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Come on,Whooter, you cannot be serious!
Don´t you see the difference?
Samara, did your parents learn the truth ...ever?
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To all readers I would like you too see the FORNITS machine at work. Maruska and Whooter were having a conversation about there children and because FORNITS does not like Whooters opinions on the Troubled Teen Industry they railroad him in this fashion. I want all new and old readers to know that this happens often. They advocate for independence, Freedom, Free speech, Not Bullying, No Peer Pressure and No Intimadation.
What your about to read is a verbal assualt on Whooter to discredit him. Tell me if you think it is fair.
Re: does residential really help and which one is good
Postby Dysfunction Junction » Today, 9:57 am
Paul St. John wrote:Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Whooter wrote:
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this he
DJ wrote:
That is great! And interesting to read. But, why did YOU not teach her that? I see nothing in your list that would not be not possible to achieve at home.....
I really do not get it....
Yes, maruska, it is great, but unfortunately, it's also fiction.
Whooter has already admitted that his daughter estranged herself from him and as soon as she got home she went right back to heavy drinking and drugging immediately with all of her old friends.
He also neglects to mention that when she got home she also dropped out of high school and didn't even finish that.
So, these tales of happiness, joy and success are just part of Whooter's program marketing and not actually real or part of his story. People should know this when reading Whooter's drivel.
The scariest part of Whooter's response? He didn't then, and still does not now know anything they did to his daughter at ASR and he's fine with that. This is classic Machiavellian logic: the ends justify the means. For all he knows, this "change" happened due to "S&M therapy" at ASR. He doesn't know and doesn't care.
Whooter wrote:I think we know who the liar is, DJ. I never sent you a PM.
Whooter wrote:Exactly, The customer is the parent, the product is the child.
"Just a regular parent" Whooter admits "fiduciary interest" in Aspen Education Group.
Whooter ("Children are products") is an uneducated industry shill and his credibility = 0.
*****************************************************************************************************************************
Re: does residential really help and which one is good
Postby Samara » Today, 10:32 am
In addition, he obfuscates the all night experential called The Truth, comparing it to a study all-nighter. This could not be further from the truth. The all night experential is an encounter group - it is harmful, abusive psychodrama using sleep deprivation to help break down the kids' defenses and boundaries.
Samara
learning about "self-esteem" at ASR
*****************************************************************************************************************************
Postby Ursus » Today, 10:40 am
Whooter wrote:
Paul St. John wrote:Just out of curiosity Whooter.. How do these therapeutic boarding schools go about instilling self-esteem, in the participants. I am not trying to be challenging, here, necessarily. I would like to have more facts, upon which to base my own judgments?
What is the practiced theory, methodology, etc., as relates to facilitating the development of self-esteem, in young individuals?
Paul
Okay I'll give it a shot.
Just talking out loud here:
I really don’t know the nuts and bolts of what they did at ASR but I can tell you that my daughter learned how to appreciate a compliment without sidestepping the feeling. She got to a point prior to her placement where she would change the subject if she was complimented on something she did, which was a red flag for me. Ever since she smiles and accepts it.
She was taught that she was not a victim and should not play that part and that failure was not a conclusion which defined her. It was an opportunity to see a path that was followed once but she had the power to chose another path and she did.
They taught her to change the way she thought about herself and to try to avoid negative thoughts.
She was tutored and taught how to study and make herself successful and get good grades.
They helped her to set short and well defined goals and they celebrated each time she reached a milestone.
They taught her great listening skills which helped her and I communicate so much better.. (she taught me a thing or two in this area, lol).
I think the most important thing is they taught her to love herself for who she was. If she wanted to work at Walmart and get an apartment and a dog then that was great. If she wanted to go to college that was good too.
She learned to accept the path which led her to ASR and not feel guilty or dwell on circumstances which are in the past.
She expected to be treated well by others and wouldn’t accept being stepped on by friends, (this was great to watch)
She was on top of the world when she graduated and continues to do well today.
I hope this helps.
Learning about "self-esteem" at the Academy at Swift River, from "Tough love may be a little too tough" (by Stephanie Kraft; June 24, 2006; Valley Advocate):
...On occasion, Kent had to get equipment from a maintenance closet next to a room that by September was being used for communication sessions. Often he heard the staff members who conducted the sessions shouting at the students; once, he said, he heard one of them yell at a student, "You fucking bastard!" Another time, Kent said, "I observed Brett Carey when he was literally hoarse after one of these sessions." Carey, who had been the dean of student life at ASR, is no longer at the school.
At other times, Kent saw students compelled to do degrading make-work as punishment. One time, he said, he saw a girl forced to spend an entire day scrubbing a staircase with a toothbrush. He was also alarmed by the few bits of information he heard about the so-called Life Step sessions, forms of group therapy in which several students would be taken to one of the buildings for day-and-a-half to three-day stays.
"I was instructed repeatedly on paper to prepare very minimal meals for these overnights," Kent said. "I would put up carrot sticks, celery sticks, crackers, cheese, hummus, a few turkey sandwiches, and this plate would be sufficient for two mealtimes. Then I would send a very light breakfast. The staff would have bagels and cream cheese, the kids could only have fruit and cereal. I worried about the fact that the food for the staff was different, and I felt that these were very light meals."
Kent worried about whether the food was being rationed on a punish-and-reward basis during the sessions. The question was one of many the Advocate was unable to discuss with ASR officials, who declined to be interviewed about the program...
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
Maruska: Families were treated to occasional demos of these experentials. They were modified for public consumption and total BS.
In my experience, along with other people, parents were kept away from us. We were afraid to tell the truth. Kind of like those polygamy cults in Utah where people are afraid to speak freely. We also drank the KoolAid to make the time go by easier. We were kept geographically apart without access to telephones or uncensored letters. (Our letters were read before they were sent.) All contact was monitored. Our visits occurred once every 3 months on campus.
Staff manipulated parents to keep us there. (For profit!) Staff would play to their fears and say that we would be dead insane or in jail if they let us go. By the way, I was never a drug addict or a criminal or a threat to others. CEDU was the worst place for me. Most of the other kids were just typically rebellious kids. Some were very defiant, but whatever the case may be, trenchant emotional abuse is not the answer.
Samara I was in Elan and I get ya, but shit girl. You sure do know how to turn on the drama when you want to. We get it.
danny
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I'm surprised you say that when you don't say the same re: repeated posts of other's. In this case, Maruska is making inquiries. I do not wish to have her derailed by Whooter.
I'm not stirring up too much drama or I'd use the abusive verbiage that I've seen full of vulgarities, threats and the more below the belt taunts. (Familiar?) I'm actually surprised you'd accuse ME of stirring up drama. Need a mirror?
I think you just like to say that to gals. We bring it up, it's drama. You bring it up, it's an "ass kicking."
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
Maruska: Families were treated to occasional demos of these experentials. They were modified for public consumption and total BS.
In my experience, along with other people, parents were kept away from us. We were afraid to tell the truth. Kind of like those polygamy cults in Utah where people are afraid to speak freely. We also drank the KoolAid to make the time go by easier. We were kept geographically apart without access to telephones or uncensored letters. (Our letters were read before they were sent.) All contact was monitored. Our visits occurred once every 3 months on campus.
Staff manipulated parents to keep us there. (For profit!) Staff would play to their fears and say that we would be dead insane or in jail if they let us go. By the way, I was never a drug addict or a criminal or a threat to others. CEDU was the worst place for me. Most of the other kids were just typically rebellious kids. Some were very defiant, but whatever the case may be, trenchant emotional abuse is not the answer.
:notworthy: :notworthy:
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
So it seems you agree that staying up all night isnt abusive. The post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials. But you feel if you add that to the mix then you can make it appear to be more abusive.
If you combine eating pizza with forced forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials that doesn't mean that eating pizza is abusive.
Do you see what I am saying? Attack therapy may be abusive but staying up all night isnt. You changed it.
...
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I'm surprised you say that when you don't say the same re: repeated posts of other's. In this case, Maruska is making inquiries. I do not wish to have her derailed by Whooter.
She (Maruska) was talking with whooter what gives you the right to interfere and start berating Whooter. I believe Maruska is a big girl and can handle her own business.
I'm not stirring up too much drama or I'd use the abusive verbiage that I've seen full of vulgarities, threats and the more below the belt taunts. (Familiar?) I'm actually surprised you'd accuse ME of stirring up drama. Need a mirror?
Well you have a point there but com'on look at my enemy, I think Anne got a lot of flak for being in the line of fire. Now you samara do not have to cuss and hit below the belt to derail a thread and you know that, so go play that with someone else. I can be a hypocrite.
I think you just like to say that to gals. We bring it up, it's drama. You bring it up, it's an "ass kicking."
No there are Drama Kings too, not that your a Drama Queen. You were definitely on a rant, though.
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Danny: This is an open forum. Whooter has been regurgitating and misleading for years. Yes, I feel compelled to jump in. I know you don't see it- don't know what to tell you. I'm nit jumping on the bandwagon. I've noticed this for years and stayed out of the fray because Whooter is one big Pro Program Tar Baby. It's not that he has a certain perspective - it's that he intentionally misleads.
Whooter: Now you are comparing sleep to pizza! Come on! Any idiot knows sleep deprivation is an effective tool to break down the individual. Combined with attack therapy and LGATs - it is especially efficient.
-
Danny: This is an open forum. Whooter has been regurgitating and misleading for years. Yes, I feel compelled to jump in. I know you don't see it- don't know what to tell you. I'm nit jumping on the bandwagon. I've noticed this for years and stayed out of the fray because Whooter is one big Pro Program Tar Baby. It's not that he has a certain perspective - it's that he intentionally misleads.
Whooter: Now you are comparing sleep to pizza! Come on! Any idiot knows sleep deprivation is an effective tool to break down the individual. Combined with attack therapy and LGATs - it is especially efficient.
Thats right but go back and look at the post. The post stated they kept the kids up all night until 5 am. People argued this was abusive. I disagree with that. Many kids stay up that late outside of the program. So instead of discussing it on those terms you add in attack therapy and other elements. So of course at some point you can make it abusive, I agree, by changing it ... attack therapy,lack of food, lack of water, hourly beatings, humiliation, pulling out fingernails... it becomes abusive.
But I think considering that everyone needed to change the terms that we concluded that staying up till 5 am is not abusive. That was the original post and the original argument.
...
-
Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
So it seems you agree that staying up all night isnt abusive. The post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials. But you feel if you add that to the mix then you can make it appear to be more abusive.
If you combine eating pizza with forced forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials that doesn't mean that eating pizza is abusive.
Do you see what I am saying? Attack therapy may be abusive but staying up all night isnt. You changed it.
NO. She did not. YOU changed it, as well as the context, and tried to weasel your way out of being thoroughly baked via fiddling with semantics and obfuscation by pizza.
Here is the post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065) you refer to and linked to above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366243#p366210):
http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com ... f=1&id=279 (http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
[/b]
^ "The Truth" @ Academy Swift River
The post includes a quote from an article which refers to students being "denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called 'The Truth.' "
You aver that "the post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials."
Now... just what the hell do you think a Life Step session is? It's a forced psychodrama which includes attack therapy and LGAT experientals!
:beat:
-
Danny: This is an open forum. Whooter has been regurgitating and misleading for years. Yes, I feel compelled to jump in. I know you don't see it- don't know what to tell you. I'm nit jumping on the bandwagon. I've noticed this for years and stayed out of the fray because Whooter is one big Pro Program Tar Baby. It's not that he has a certain perspective - it's that he intentionally misleads.
Whooter: Now you are comparing sleep to pizza! Come on! Any idiot knows sleep deprivation is an effective tool to break down the individual. Combined with attack therapy and LGATs - it is especially efficient.
Thats right but go back and look at the post. The post stated they kept the kids up all night until 5 am. People argued this was abusive. I disagree with that. Many kids stay up that late outside of the program. So instead of discussing it on those terms you add in attack therapy and other elements. So of course at some point you can make it abusive, I agree, by changing it ... attack therapy,lack of food, lack of water, hourly beatings, humiliation, pulling out fingernails... it becomes abusive.
But I think considering that everyone needed to change the terms that we concluded that staying up till 5 am is not abusive. That was the original post and the original argument.
Yes, do look at that post, I've reposted it above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366250#p366249). The post stated that kids were kept up all night until 5 a.m. doing a forced psychodrama which included attack therapy and LGAT experientals. People argued that this was abusive. It was.
The state of Massachusetts agreed. After the Massachusetts Office of Child Care Services investigated, ASR was cited for several infractions (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&start=45#p366165), which included monitoring students' telephone calls and mail as well as "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
Whooter disagrees. He still claims it's not abusive. I guess that 'cuz he likes playing around with "terms?" Or perhaps, pizza.
-
Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
So it seems you agree that staying up all night isnt abusive. The post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials. But you feel if you add that to the mix then you can make it appear to be more abusive.
If you combine eating pizza with forced forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials that doesn't mean that eating pizza is abusive.
Do you see what I am saying? Attack therapy may be abusive but staying up all night isnt. You changed it.
NO. She did not. YOU CHANGED the context, and tried to weasel your way out of being thoroughly baked via fiddling with semantics and obfuscation by pizza.
Here is the post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366065#p366065) you refer to and linked to above (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&p=366243#p366210):
http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com ... f=1&id=279 (http://cafety.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=279)
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
[/b]
^ "The Truth" @ Academy Swift River
The post includes a quote from an article which refers to students being "denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called 'The Truth.' "
You aver that "the post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials."
Now... just what the hell do you think a Life Step session is? It's a forced psychodrama which includes attack therapy and LGAT experientals!
Ursus just asking because I was in Elan and we did all night groups (individual) and the like. How exactly does one go about forcing someone to do psychodrama....then how does one use attack therapy..... LGAT (just so I'm sure what is LGAT stand for, I forget).
-
We are aware of your post, Ursus. But we were not discussing yours. We were discussing a session called “The truth” which posted below. You brought in other posts on top of it. So looking at the original post:
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366200#p366200)
Maruska responded with:
OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep??
THAT is abuse. End of story..
I do not think the police can use such a tactic here with criminals...and we are speaking about children!
This was the original argument. I just don’t see this as abusive. Most kids stay up much later than this on weekends.
If you want to change the argument and add things to it then that’s fine we can talk about it. But keeping the kids up till 5 am is not abusive and I think we have established this.
...
-
This was the original argument. I just don’t see this as abusive. Most kids stay up much later than this on weekends.
If you want to change the argument and add things to it then that’s fine we can talk about it. But keeping the kids up till 5 am is not abusive and I think we have established this.
Well, actually, it is. If I force you to stay up til 5 am, without your consent, what would you consider it?
Paul
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Is it true that your daughter was estranged from you after the program, and that she went back to using drugs? If so, the inclusion of this information would have been a bit more helpful, in helping me form an accurate opinion. You made it sound pretty great. You didn t actually answer my question. You told me the effects of the program. I asked about the theories behind it and the methodology used. I am assuming that you don t know.. That s cool.. I just got the impression that you were like an authority on the topic or something.
Paul
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We are aware of your post, Ursus. But we were not discussing yours. We were discussing a session called “The truth” which posted below. You brought in other posts on top of it. So looking at the original post:
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=366200#p366200)
Maruska responded with:
OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep??
THAT is abuse. End of story..
I do not think the police can use such a tactic here with criminals...and we are speaking about children!
This was the original argument. I just don’t see this as abusive. Most kids stay up much later than this on weekends.
If you want to change the argument and add things to it then that’s fine we can talk about it. But keeping the kids up till 5 am is not abusive and I think we have established this.
If you actually read my post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30607&start=60#p366249), you would understand that I was discussing your post, as well as the post you linked to, which had been Joel's. I, in fact, quoted Joel's entire post, which includes the quote from the article mentioning the Life Step session called "The Truth." You simply duplicated that above, even while claiming I was discussing something else.
The Life Step sessions, which are a form of long drawn out psychodrama utilizing attack therapy, were originally adopted from seminar methods obtained from Mount Bachelor Academy when personnel from the latter originally helped found ASR. I'm sure Academy at Swift River tweaked things a little here and there to create something that worked better for them, but the basic concept and methodology was still the same.
People have claimed that they were abusive. You have claimed that they were not.
Mount Bachelor Academy recently closed rather contest charges of abuse brought by Oregon's Department of Human Services.
Academy at Swift River has also been cited for several infractions, which included monitoring students' telephone calls and mail as well as "using behavior management techniques which subject students to verbal abuse, ridicule and humiliation, denial of sufficient sleep, and repetitive exercise as a response to an infraction of a rule."
If you are now averring that "the original argument" focused solely on three sentences by Maruska, namely "OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep?? THAT is abuse. End of story..," and ignored the entirety of what Life Step seminars are comprised of (despite having several times referred to the post and argument as discussing same), then I would say you are flailing about with some pretty petty semantic games. Go get some sleep.
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Danny B. If you went to Elan, you know damn well staff can force you to engage in large group attack and encounter "therapy" - EST and Lifespring type stuff.
And you cannot compare a teenaged all nighter to coerced sleep deprivation - especially when part of the process involves severe emotional onslaught. That is just basic common sense.
-
Slowly you are catching on,Ursus.
This quote talks about staying up late and one administrator using foul language and this is what we were discussing.
Academy administrators told Lieberman it was true that students were denied sleep for 19 or 20 hours during the first Life Step session, called "The Truth." Staff and students might stay up all night, then break for a nap between 5 and 7 a.m., then continue the session until 2 the next afternoon, the administrators said. One administrator also acknowledged using profanity toward the students during communications sessions, and added, "Some days I have said things to students that I wish I did not say."
If you are now averring that "the original argument" focused solely on three sentences by Maruska, namely "OMG...19 or 20 hours without sleep?? THAT is abuse. End of story..,"
Call it what you like but I don’t think this is abusive.
Now if you want to make a case that kids were abused “during” this time period then we can take a look at that. But that is a separate issue. If kids are abused at any hour then that is abuse, but it doesn’t make the time period abusive. See what I mean? You confused the two.
...
-
Don't be an ass. You know this. Coerced sleep deprivation is a recognized tool of facilitating torture/compliance/and coersion. And no one is upset by a few foul words. FUCK FUCK FUCK. See? Upset?
Our regular raps included some of the following, but the experentials included all and there were 7. Each one from 1-7 days. 1 day being 24 hours.
It is being emotionally attacked en masse, with exercises designed to subject you to extreme humilation and ridicule...
Forced berating, badgering, and attacking your peers...
loud screaming interrogations
coerced confessions and false confessions because you are so badgered and abused you cop out to lies...
perverse and/or demeaning role playing activities...
cruel games and role playing activities...
and they break you. There is no backing out. You can't level up without it. You can't survive more onslaught without it.
At the end of the experential, you have a "truth" or "value" - but its not really your's even though they say it is. It's part of revising your story and your psyche.
All of this done in secrecy. You are not allowed to share it with other peers who have not yet reached that part of the program. However, when you come back into the hosue, you are expected to dance and shine and put on a big monkey show for all the other "students." The last thing you want to show staff is atht you didn't buy into it.
The funny thing is you leave feeling like you are in on this big, transcendental secret - so you feel superior. But you also drank more of the Kool Aid in the process.
Each profeet separates you more from yourself. It also has you embracing this mindset,expectation and magic that really isn't applicable in the real world. (But you judge everyone else for not having the "enlightenment.")
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Whooter we fornits people "get the bigger picture" why your daughter went to a program. Children learn from parents. We observe your pattern every day on fornits - dishonesty, manipulation, lies, playing word games, emotionally abusing people and making blatant attempts to exploit weaknesses in victims you've never met.
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Whooter we fornits people "get the bigger picture" why your daughter went to a program. Children learn from parents. We observe your pattern every day on fornits - dishonesty, manipulation, lies, playing word games, emotionally abusing people and making blatant attempts to exploit weaknesses in victims you've never met.
Why thank you fuckwad, the now famous FELICIO......lol.
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LMAO! Danny, you are so fucking crazy!!
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Oh Shit.. Still laughing....
and also, what the hell does it have to do with you? Why do you love Whooter so much?
Danny, in all your battles, when has he ever defended you?
Oh shit.. You are a crazy MFer though....
Paul
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Whooter's lack of defense -one he will never admit- is because he does not like to align himself with loose cannons. This is part of his credibility scheme.
-
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
So it seems you agree that staying up all night isnt abusive. The post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials. But you feel if you add that to the mix then you can make it appear to be more abusive.
If you combine eating pizza with forced forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials that doesn't mean that eating pizza is abusive.
Do you see what I am saying? Attack therapy may be abusive but staying up all night isnt. You changed it.
...
Well, I think the combinations of these techniques are abusive, but I also think the forced lack of sleep alone is abusive. Many of us choose not to go to sleep till very late on occasion, but there is no situation, ever, not even in prison, that i can think of, except for the troubled teen industry, where we are letting this happen.
situations that force an abnormal sleep schedule are abusive.
.
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Si, Joel. But I split before the Big ones. Thankfully. But the exercises were outed. I know someone got a hold of the scripts but don't know what happened to them.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Whooter's lack of defense -one he will never admit- is because he does not like to align himself with loose cannons. This is part of his credibility scheme.
I know that. Whooter, is, to an extent, taken seriously. He is not gonna let a nutjob like Danny hurt his image. Danny is a bit of a brute, and he rarely makes any sense. Whooter knows that.
Paul
PS No offense Danny. I often find you quite hysterical.
And if Whooer is what everyone seems to think he is. He is a far worse person then you. He knows he's wrong. You just can t help yourself.
I, personally don t what the deal with Whooter is.. So far, I have found him too boring to follow him much. If he is a bad guy, though, I ll get him... Watch... all in time.
:rocker: a bit more of my cockiness. :rocker:
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Danny B. If you went to Elan, you know damn well staff can force you to engage in large group attack and encounter "therapy" - EST and Lifespring type stuff.
And you cannot compare a teenaged all nighter to coerced sleep deprivation - especially when part of the process involves severe emotional onslaught. That is just basic common sense.
Samara, please don't try to act like you understand Elan through posts of others, that is the problem I have here. Your making a statement right now that could be true but you don't know that.
Danny
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Well, we are talking about forced lack of sleep combined with forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials.
So it seems you agree that staying up all night isnt abusive. The post never mentioned forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials. But you feel if you add that to the mix then you can make it appear to be more abusive.
If you combine eating pizza with forced forced psychodramas, attack therapy and LGAT experientials that doesn't mean that eating pizza is abusive.
Do you see what I am saying? Attack therapy may be abusive but staying up all night isnt. You changed it.
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obviously you have never been in prison, if big John wants your salad well you will be up all night making sure it doesn't get tossed. That my friend is forced slept deprivation they rest of this shit you folks are talking about is :waaaa: :waaaa: :waaaa: :waaaa: .
Danny
Well, I think the combinations of these techniques are abusive, but I also think the forced lack of sleep alone is abusive. Many of us choose not to go to sleep till very late on occasion, but there is no situation, ever, not even in prison, that i can think of, except for the troubled teen industry, where we are letting this happen.
situations that force an abnormal sleep schedule are abusive.
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Whooter's lack of defense -one he will never admit- is because he does not like to align himself with loose cannons. This is part of his credibility scheme.
I know that. Whooter, is, to an extent, taken seriously. He is not gonna let a nutjob like Danny hurt his image. Danny is a bit of a brute, and he rarely makes any sense. Whooter knows that.
Paul
And if Whooer is what everyone seems to think he is. He is a far worse person then you. He knows he's wrong. You just can t help yourself.
I, personally don t what the deal with Whooter is.. So far, I hhttp://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.p ... 366285#ave (http://hhttp://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.php?mode=quote&f=9&p=366285#ave) found him too boring to follow him much. If he is a bad guy, though, I ll get him... Watch... all in time.
Nice try with Kimmy, keep working at it your info lacks horribly. Don't rely on google.
Now whooter and I have nada, I said that already. He happens to echo what I would like to say but can't. We are not friends nor do I care to be his friend, frankly that is not even pertinent to the relationship I have with this Web Site. Like I've always said this dude says what I would like to say here at times. He is cool hand luke.
LOL.....No shit there cowboy on your astute analysis of my writing ability. Yes you are right I make little sense and I am lucky if that happens.
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Like I've always said this dude says what I would like to say here at times. He is cool hand luke.
Speaking of Cool Hand Luke, back in my day, kids at Hyde sometimes had to dig their own grave (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=25904#p318887): 6l x 2w x 6d. Sometimes multiple times.
It was part of remaking your image (if you were deemed especially "lacking in character," or clung too stubbornly to your "bad attitude" :D ).
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Whooter's lack of defense -one he will never admit- is because he does not like to align himself with loose cannons. This is part of his credibility scheme.
I know that. Whooter, is, to an extent, taken seriously. He is not gonna let a nutjob like Danny hurt his image. Danny is a bit of a brute, and he rarely makes any sense. Whooter knows that.
Paul
And if Whooer is what everyone seems to think he is. He is a far worse person then you. He knows he's wrong. You just can t help yourself.
I, personally don t what the deal with Whooter is.. So far, I hhttp://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.p ... 366285#ave (http://hhttp://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.php?mode=quote&f=9&p=366285#ave) found him too boring to follow him much. If he is a bad guy, though, I ll get him... Watch... all in time.
Nice try with Kimmy, keep working at it your info lacks horribly. Don't rely on google.
Danny, I have never used google to ascertain any information that I have posted here. i am not sure whta you are talking about. And what does it have to do wih Kimmy?
Now whooter and I have nada, I said that already. He happens to echo what I would like to say but can't. We are not friends nor do I care to be his friend, frankly that is not even pertinent to the relationship I have with this Web Site. Like I've always said this dude says what I would like to say here at times. He is cool hand luke.
LOL.....No shit there cowboy on your astute analysis of my writing ability. Yes you are right I make little sense and I am lucky if that happens.
This is why I just can t hate ya danny. You are just too funny.
Paul
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Oh and Danny, would it surprise you to know that your link doesn t work?
Paul
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Danny B. If you went to Elan, you know damn well staff can force you to engage in large group attack and encounter "therapy" - EST and Lifespring type stuff.
And you cannot compare a teenaged all nighter to coerced sleep deprivation - especially when part of the process involves severe emotional onslaught. That is just basic common sense.
Samara, please don't try to act like you understand Elan through posts of others, that is the problem I have here. Your making a statement right now that could be true but you don't know that.
Danny
It's interesting - most of the programs on this site share many commonalities. It creates a bond or understanding amongst us .... You continue to reject it. Are you really saying that students operated on free will at Elan - because that is not what I understand. People who have discussed Elan - well, it rings like truth to me. If there was no coercive element, there would be no thread on this forum. Your own aggression is very similar to attack modality. I CAN say that.
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Danny B. If you went to Elan, you know damn well staff can force you to engage in large group attack and encounter "therapy" - EST and Lifespring type stuff.
And you cannot compare a teenaged all nighter to coerced sleep deprivation - especially when part of the process involves severe emotional onslaught. That is just basic common sense.
Samara, please don't try to act like you understand Elan through posts of others, that is the problem I have here. Your making a statement right now that could be true but you don't know that.
Danny
It's interesting - most of the programs on this site share many commonalities. It creates a bond or understanding amongst us .... You continue to reject it. Are you really saying that students operated on free will at Elan - because that is not what I understand. People who have discussed Elan - well, it rings like truth to me. If there was no coercive element, there would be no thread on this forum. Your own aggression is very similar to attack modality. I CAN say that.
:tup: :tup: :cheers: