Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on December 21, 2004, 09:39:00 AM
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I think that studies have shown that a certain number of people who abuse drugs/alcohol will just stop at some point without any other intervention. Some people will never stop, and perhaps die from it or suffer in other ways; some will become moderate users but stop abusing - all on their own.
However, some people will join AA, a church or the Marines - or the Seed - or in some other way try to get help for their problem.
The radical idea is - that the percentage of people who stop and get better, get worse and die, or just slow down, is THE SAME in both groups.
How does this relate to us, fellow Seedlings, if this is true? Well, it means that the arguments about the Seed helping people (Jimmy, Trucker, etc.), or hurting people (Ginger, Greg), may be true for certain individuals, but the statistics for all of us are the same.
Now one group can talk about people who got better in the Seed, and another group of people can talk about people who got worse, but the numbers are the SAME - some get better, some get worse, some stay the same.
I don't know if this is true for the Seed, but I have read that it's true for AA. Maybe it really is up to us after all, to get happy and stay happy - Seed or no Seed.
What do you all thnk of this?
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No one's responding to this? Hmm....
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there are no valid post program stats, only anecodatal information.
Most people I know did NOT stay sober. the incidence of mental problems and emotional problems seems higher as well as suicides, but again no valid scientific study has ever been done in spite of the big lie...you know, the 90% sucess ratio lie.
I just don't know how to respond accurately here cleveland. I will say no one was unchanged by their experience in this cult.
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On 2004-12-21 15:45:00, GregFL wrote:
...I will say no one was unchanged by their experience in this cult.
Unchanged??? - Thank God, I WAS... :nworthy:
Peace
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I know, I know! I hate to be negative. I'm just trying to take out the "he said, she said" dynamic here...you know..."It helped me!..."Yeah, but it didn't help me!"-thing.
My feelings about the seed are very complicated, and I find good and bad in the experiences. Some of these posts are so powerful on both sides of ther issue. I learm from both. But I get tired of the bickering; that does nothing for me!
Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas, whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate!
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Right now, I'm thinking the whole Good/Bad Seed idea may, and my idea/hypothesis is just in its early stages - I think it might be a matter of whether a person operates from the base brain or the higher brain.
The base brain, as I understand it, is that unevolved portion of our brains that calls to fulfull the base desires - food, sex, feeling good (and what that entails.) Sometimes those base desires take over the being and a person becomes driven to fulfill those desires- hence addiction. Again, this is just my understanding right now, but the higher brain allows a person to take control of the primative urges in a rational manner choosing to gratify the urges or not - instead of giving up control to the base desires or some other external power - be it a Seed, a church, the military.
Maybe the perception of good experience/bad experience is based on whether a person is base brain oriented (so seed was good because it kept them off drugs, or,more importantly, allowed them to remain at a lower consciousness) versus persons who are presently or are becoming higher brain oriented, who have cnoflict with the program because it forbids/impeads development
of the higher brain or consciousness.
From looking at the posts since I've joined (early November2004) I can see where that might be a reason for the sharp divisions of opinion.
Are there no official studies on the effects of these programs?
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Stripe, although I think there may be something to that, I would think it's an oversimplification.
My thinking would be, that whenever a person is in a stressful, peer pressure, "group think" situation - whether work, family, friends, church, AA, whatever - they are working on a basic, emotional level. Think of gangs, charismatic churches, etc. And think of how powerful our emotions are in these situations - how we were when we were at the Seed, and how strong those memories are. But, I don't think we give up on the higher, critical functions -
if we think back, we remember doubt, we remember critical thoughts - but we chose to give in - "OK, I'll go along because (fill in the blank) I'm a fuckup, they are smarter, I want to graduate, they love me, let's get this over with" - whatever. And, of course, everyone's different. Don't you remember some scary 'super seedlings' who were mindless in their devotion? Note, none of those people ever were on staff. You had to retain your critical thinking to be effective, so you had to be able to make an internal compromise.
That's my thinking. Our analysis, or 'getting into our heads' about it. You and I are both over-educated fools - from a Seed standpoint!
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This gives a fairly good explanation of the primitive brain as it pertains to alcoholism.
http://orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-addmonst.html)
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"That's my thinking. Our analysis, or 'getting into our heads' about it. You and I are both over-educated fools - from a Seed standpoint! "
Yup. That would be me. Still looking for answers to life's unanswered questions, unable to accept the easy answer the seed provided. do like us, think like us, be like us and if you do the "RIGHT THINGS - the RIGHT THING will happen." Now I say, "What??? "
I just don't know if that experience brought me out of it - as in, it being addiction; that was never a problem I when I was there. That obsessive behavior didn't start until much later in my life and those "Seed tools" did not not help me to overcome that issue. I beat the addiction by willpower and choice.
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I think we're on the same page. When I was at the Seed, I gave up on trying to understand life and just accepted what I was told. Never again, I hope.
Interesting. I feel sort of bad about questioning Seed ideas, even today, especially when it's clear that there are a lot of people in pain and looking for answers, and who am I to throw a wrench into it? On the other hand, I think that people together, being honest, are truly helpful of one another in the long term.
I think the problem with our society is that we are so NOT aware of what we're feeling and thinking at times - that we are addicted to life's illusions, easy answers, cheap thrills, ego gratification, material goods, etc. and I am no different. It is a very complex world and we will never figure it all out. But I'll keep at it, knowing that there are no easy answers anyway...
I remember, a Seed staff member used to tell me, "Boy, I feel bad for you Wally, being into your head, it must be a scary place" and you know what - it is scary in my head AND my heart, but also - beautiful, challenging, exciting...
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Like "being in your head" and THINKING is such a bad thing? Well, I guess having the underling think is a bad thing if the intent is to control what goes on in the thinking space ...inside the heads...
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On 2004-12-22 07:22:00, Stripe wrote:
"Right now, I'm thinking the whole Good/Bad Seed idea may, and my idea/hypothesis is just in its early stages - I think it might be a matter of whether a person operates from the base brain or the higher brain.
Hmm, interesting point. I wonder, though, if the difference is more between the intensity of the experience rather than whether we perceive it as good or bad.
I was not really very affected by the Program either way. I was disturbed to find these lunatics who I'd thought I'd escaped writing public policy mandating spending in their industries. Moreso because they focus their attention and efforts on my kids.
I've heard from a lot of other people who simply blew the whole thing off. Never got all that involved to begin with, sort of skated in and out on the perifery. To them, the whole thing was some fucked up shit not worth talking about or a vaguely pleasant, but equally uninteresting experience.
Those who were always on the floor and those who were eager to go on staff are the ones most affected. At the time, I viewed both extremes as evidence of being broken. The whole key was to never divulge anything really important, never be vulnerable, never lose your temper.
Are there no official studies on the effects of these programs?
Actually, yes, sort of. I can't remember the reference right now, but someone posted in the past month or so about a government study of tough boot-camp style treatment. It was not favorable. Next best thing we've got are extensive studies into Korean brainwashing methods (mostly by CIA and affiliates) and cult studies, coincidentally or not, mostly by FBI and their professional wittnesses.
I shit you not. I'm not being expansive here or flip or trying to piss anybody off or argue symantics. If you look into those two topics, you may be surprised to find a lot of familiar concepts and practices. The whole method amounts to reducing someone to just that state of mind that you describe.
You get sleep deprived and are not allowed privacy or self reflection. You're stressed w/ all the shouting and new rules, new names, constant scrutiny and just weirdness. None of your familiar comforts, even that annoying way your mother might whine and lecture, were available to you. You get fatigued, confused and sometimes paranoid. You know this, so you begin to doubt your own judgement and even perception of things. There's constant and overpowering peer pressure to adopt a very tidy, simplistic way of seeing things and you're just too damned tired and disgusted to question it anymore. The easiest way to get feeling good (or at least a little less bad) is to just go w/ the fucking flow and think about it later.
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2004-12-22 08:27:00, cleveland wrote:
That's my thinking. Our analysis, or 'getting into our heads' about it. You and I are both over-educated fools - from a Seed standpoint!
Analytical! It wasn't a formal rule, but I was conatantly being accused of being annalytical or hiding behind my intellectual druggie image. (again, I shit you not! And, of course, I'd never make it in college if I didn't work my program!) I even remember a rap on a kid who's last name sounded like it meant he was guilty of that crime. I vaguely remember him looking like it was the funniest thing that had happened yet.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-- Aristotle
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On 2004-12-22 10:10:00, cleveland wrote:
Interesting. I feel sort of bad about questioning Seed ideas, even today, especially when it's clear that there are a lot of people in pain and looking for answers, and who am I to throw a wrench into it? On the other hand, I think that people together, being honest, are truly helpful of one another in the long term.
I look at it very much like people who believe, and I mean believe asif it were handed down by God himself, that their tap watter is EPA approved and the safest thing in the world. Fact is, neither is true. So do I shatter my friend's illusions and risk them getting cut on the shards? Or do I keep my mouth shut and hope they're right so we can laugh about it together in our old age, watching healthy grandchildren hold forth on the scare of their day.
I remember, a Seed staff member used to tell me, "Boy, I feel bad for you Wally, being into your head, it must be a scary place" and you know what - it is scary in my head AND my heart, but also - beautiful, challenging, exciting...
Some people sleep better w/ a little white noise so they can forget all about the waking world. I sleep better in silence w/ a window open so that, if something happens, I'll know to wake up and attend to it.
A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001
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I get a kick out of all the sleep deprived comments I hear. The Seed was not 10am to 10pm from about 1974 on.
I guess they changed from Korean tactics to maybe
mongolian or surbian or possibly Mexican siesta tactics since everyone was getting alot more sleep :grin:
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remember ft laud that we are all broaching this topic with our own experiences.
When I was a "newcomer" I got about 5 hours sleep a night, damn little food and water, had to urinate and defecate almost constantly due to lack of bathroom privileges, and was in constant fear of confrontation. I addition, when my teenage body would go on tilt and start to fall asleep or my mind would wander, immediately pokes in the back and furious hands would go up.
Your experience was different, eh?
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On 2004-12-23 04:48:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"I get a kick out of all the sleep deprived comments I hear. The Seed was not 10am to 10pm from about 1974 on.
I guess they changed from Korean tactics to maybe
mongolian or surbian or possibly Mexican siesta tactics since everyone was getting alot more sleep :grin: "
Don't know what part of 1974 you were there but I assure you, it was 10 to 10 and then some when I was there from early 1973 through mid-74. My end experience is vague but I think maybe I quit going , I guess, in the late spring or early summer of 1974.
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On 2004-12-22 08:27:00, cleveland wrote:
"Stripe, although I think there may be something to that, I would think it's an oversimplification.
My thinking would be, that whenever a person is in a stressful, peer pressure, "group think" situation - whether work, family, friends, church, AA, whatever - they are working on a basic, emotional level. Think of gangs, charismatic churches, etc. And think of how powerful our emotions are in these situations - how we were when we were at the Seed, and how strong those memories are. But, I don't think we give up on the higher, critical functions -
if we think back, we remember doubt, we remember critical thoughts - but we chose to give in - "OK, I'll go along because (fill in the blank) I'm a fuckup, they are smarter, I want to graduate, they love me, let's get this over with" - whatever. And, of course, everyone's different. Don't you remember some scary 'super seedlings' who were mindless in their devotion? Note, none of those people ever were on staff. You had to retain your critical thinking to be effective, so you had to be able to make an internal compromise.
That's my thinking. Our analysis, or 'getting into our heads' about it. You and I are both over-educated fools - from a Seed standpoint!
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Now, let me "relate" a later, post-Seed experience. After the Seed, Iwas still a junior in high school and very much segregated from high schoool life. I became involved in a "christian" evangelical church. I was, of course, seeking some answers to the emptiness and lonliness that the seed rules and constraints caused, trying to find some straight friends who met that criteria. I became involved in the youth group where it was incumbent upon the members there to keep each other "in the faith" Only one problem, the youth leader and christian peers determined that I did not have enough faith (??) and so I was asked to withdraw myself as I questioned too much. :scared:
I guess my point is, Wally, you shouldn't feel bad about saying anything that makes someone question their expereiences in the Seed- or any other thought/behavior control groups. How many years went by before I was able to reconcile the kind of rejection I experienced in both places by understanding that those places were were the fucked up individuals or groups, and not me. I'll tell you - about 30 years. That's too long.
I think the reason some of us have so much trouble from these programs is because we really are more highly developed or evolved on a conscious level than even we know. Therefore, there is inherently more internal conflict with the dogma. Contrary to those dogmatic teachings in the Seed or organized evangelical christian religion, knowledge, be it book learning or heart knowledge, is, to quote Martha, "a good thing."
I mean, why else would Seed-lifers need to ask someone else's PERMISSION to get a college education? :???: It's because, as my mother has always told me - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Dangerous for the dogma pushers, that is.
I think we need to give ourselves permission to question and blessings for being brave enough and smart enough to investigate the exterior authority these dogma-pushers put on us. Bless all you stuggling angels out there.
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I gained 30 to 35 lbs in about 3 months. I do remember being tired from staying up late talking to my oldcomer or foster brother or whoever. What year did "Butch Casidy and the Sundance Kid" come out? I remember seeing it at a Movie Theater at 8PM and I was so excited that the tme changed so we could make it to a movie?
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Nope sorry it was "The Sting" same stars. I looked it up on google -said 1973. I know I saw it 1974. I don't know what to say about bathroom situation? Was it the same for you at Broward as St. Pete?
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I wasnt in broward but stripe was.
Could it be that you went to the movies (with permission of course ...time, date and movie) during one of your nights off as an oldcomer?
That sure would clear this up if it was true. I also saw a movie as an oldcomer with my step mom...it was about rasputin...
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Greg, that Rasputin movie reference - are you trying to be funny or does it just come naturally to you? :smile: At first I thought the reference was the Rasputin-like control of the seed :lol: - then I realized it was a step-mother story - so maybe you were being serious - or maybe you weren't. Hell, I don't know you well enough to tell. But the seed/Rasputin connetion seems pretty funny to me.
Gotta go.
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heh, actually it was a movie, a BAD movie, about the russian revolution and Rasputin's role in it. The damn movie came out in 1973 and was about the only movie we could get permission to go see. I sure wish I could remember the name about now....