Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 22, 2009, 07:55:10 AM
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Community Alliance for the Ethical Treatment of Youth (CAFETY) : All of CAFETY videos, in chronological order, for the Feb 2009 Capitol Hill Press Briefing may now be found at CAFETY's Official You Tube page:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 131DBB175A (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=52B1EF131DBB175A)
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Also, for additional videos please visit:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CAFETYonline (http://www.youtube.com/user/CAFETYonline)
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:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
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No prob!
I <3 :spam: ... w/hash browns! mmmm....
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in military school it was hash browns and "shit on a shingle" for breakfast. Why you plug that bullshit proceeding and legislation really does irk me pretty bad, but whatever... suit yourself. :blabla: :blabla: :blabla: BTW, how would your legislation affect the new and improved and 'renamed' Carolina Springs Academy???
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Hey there, goat, pull in yer horns there for a moment. It's a service. Free speech is what it's all about. Watch the damned video and then comment about it. Don't discourage people saying what they've got to say.
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Legislation is a good idea, but not enough... as noted at links below:
http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c ... 8z_AqTTC30 (http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c/52B1EF131DBB175A/15/n8z_AqTTC30)
http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c ... Wlyu2HxOIw (http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c/52B1EF131DBB175A/16/pWlyu2HxOIw)
That said, I think legislation would help prevent program operators from opening up a new biz in a different name after being shut down for abuse because there would be a central place monitoring such places and hopefully a website will be used to that end that will publicly expose such programs. The Senate version of the bill has not been finalized and the House version still would need to be reconciled with the Senate version, but I'm optimistic that some positive results will come of it... though of course its not the end all be all. How could it be? Cultural change can't be legislated (see racism/discrimination)... and, as I see it, we have to help do that - as both survivors and those who are aware of damage inflicted upon those we care for. We have power and agency the gov't can't tap into from a top heavy approach... :blabla: so on and so forth. Saying here nuthin' that hasn't been said before and where folks, successfully working toward systemic change, haven't paved the way long before I was born. ::deadhorse::
(p.s. Antigen - thanks for the post. Aslo, I LOVE these emoticons!)
peace.
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I am not a big fan of regulation because I feel it is mainly ineffective and can bring a false sense of legitimacy to those programs or businesses which are poorly run and/or abusive. This artificial legitimacy filters its way into all parts of society to the point where it aides these ineffective businesses to grow and prosper beyond the point they would have if they were never regulated to begin with. For example if a program is regulated and overseen by a government agency then many banking institutes may feel secure and more willing in setting up loan programs to assist those who could not normally afford to send their child to a program. This loan program would feed the growth of programs under the umbrella of regulation since they would be guaranteed by the government. Families would feel they wouldnt have to investigate the programs safety because the government already has oversight.
On the other hand strict regulation may help to prohibit programs that were closed down from reopening and keep the bad apples from getting back into the system.
But I think history tells all of us that government isn’t going to solve any of our problems. The consumer generally determines how successful a business is by rating the quality of its output and either the business will survive or it will not.
As long as there is a need for programs they will exist… the same as drugs… the government cant stop or control it.
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Or, in fewer words, the regulators are necessarily politicians and bureaucrats. They're for sale. Sometimes reeeeeeeal cheap! All good intentions aside, government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
Kinda moot at this point anyway. Things are getting so bad even sterling government insurance and other benefits are getting cut. Pretty soon we'll be as overly regulated and wild west corrupt as Stalinist Russia. That's why we should all take Moe's frequently offered advice and s p r e a d o u t .
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:timeout: Hey Antigen, my horns don't grow backwards as I am a man of principle. Whatever, if you welcome CAFETY Compromise then go right ahead. That 07 hearing was scripted. The truth was STIFLED!!! But, Kat got her mug on TV, so it's all good, right? Just like Calvina gets her mug on TV. Kat has no hammer with which to beat a dead horse and as long as CAFETY plugs this bill, well, the horse aint nowhere dead. :( Grow some balls and renounce support!! Kill it, spend the $$$ on awareness of the issues.
American kids are being held in a US based WWASP program that's protected by the CURRENT laws of the land, you know, so this bill sucks... no two ways about it.
HR911= The Great Compromise Act of 2010... ::poke::
I too, love these emoticons. Who doesn't? :roflmao:
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Legislation is a good idea, but not enough... as noted at links below:
http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c ... 8z_AqTTC30 (http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c/52B1EF131DBB175A/15/n8z_AqTTC30)
http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c ... Wlyu2HxOIw (http://www.youtube.com/cafetyonline#p/c/52B1EF131DBB175A/16/pWlyu2HxOIw)
That said, I think legislation would help prevent program operators from opening up a new biz in a different name after being shut down for abuse because there would be a central place monitoring such places and hopefully a website will be used to that end that will publicly expose such programs. The Senate version of the bill has not been finalized and the House version still would need to be reconciled with the Senate version, but I'm optimistic that some positive results will come of it... though of course its not the end all be all. How could it be? Cultural change can't be legislated (see racism/discrimination)... and, as I see it, we have to help do that - as both survivors and those who are aware of damage inflicted upon those we care for. We have power and agency the gov't can't tap into from a top heavy approach... :blabla: so on and so forth. Saying here nuthin' that hasn't been said before and where folks, successfully working toward systemic change, haven't paved the way long before I was born. ::deadhorse::
(p.s. Antigen - thanks for the post. Aslo, I LOVE these emoticons!)
peace.
Actually, stopping someone from reopening under a new name wouldn't be stopped at all. Eluding the scrutiny of the authorities is an American past time. Americans, god bless our sneaky little hearts, only need to look to our own government for tips in eluding public oversight. That's not being paranoid either, but seriously take a look at the shell companies sold over the internet from Delaware. Pushing a company out of business in one state, does not mean the seed money can't be put up by the previous owners and run under "new management".
There are sooooo many ways around this legislation it makes my face hurt thinking about it.
What works is something like the Sexual Predator websites. However, those jazbos have actually been convicted of something, which is the only reason those websites are remotely possible.
Work towards getting some of the real scum thrown in Jail. Prison rape of program owners like Ken Huey and such is the only real culture change I'm interested in.
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I think it'll certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out, no doubt. I have a bit more faith in the state - I'm all for the social-welfare state, personally... there are many examples where gov't has successfully run things and instances where it has seriously botched things... In anycase, think this debate is well worn in other threads and that the merits of state intervention are really difficult to assess, particularly among vastly diverging ideologies and when primarily speculating in theory with little basis in fact... And I think facts can be used to support all sides... so I guess I'll just leave it at that.
Rusty, I think its great that you have such strong opinions, I'm certain you can find a way to put it to good use.
LOL re: mug on T.V. - snootiness aside... really? Anyway, to be sure, You Tubes democratic function is appealing to me (and clearly most of the world). And I'm all for democracy.
LOL x100 re: poking stick in the eye. That really is a good one, one of the best!!
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Can you name one good example of where the state effectively regulated a specific industry?
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Ok so attempts at regulation seem to amount to: :wall: :blabla: ::deadhorse::
It seems stronger action is required to do anything more than make things look good on the surface.
There's a sucker born every minute.
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Work towards getting some of the real scum thrown in Jail. Prison rape of program owners like Ken Huey and such is the only real culture change I'm interested in.
:tup:
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:timeout: Hey Antigen, my horns don't grow backwards as I am a man of principle. Whatever, if you welcome CAFETY Compromise then go right ahead.
What makes you think I welcome CAFETY compromise? I don't. I do welcome discussion (i.e. exposure) of it, though.
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I think it'll certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out, no doubt.
I suppose if it's your first time watching this show it might be interesting. I'm pretty certain it'll be just the same ol'e same ol'e song n dance. The activists call upon the legislators and overseers, bunch of lobbyists take in a bunch of private sector money and apply it to the direction of public sector dollars to set up and maintain a little more bureaucracy and the beating goes on. Boring.
I have a bit more faith in the state - I'm all for the social-welfare state, personally...
So go visit Cuba. Seriously. I'm not saying "leave the country for good you pinko" or anything. Just sayin you should walk around a few places where the social welfare state has had a chance to work it's magic before you advocate bringing it home.
Rusty, I think its great that you have such strong opinions, I'm certain you can find a way to put it to good use.
:roflmao: Can find??? Like as in sooner or later something useful may come out of his efforts? Li'll gurl, Rusty is old enough to be your papa and has been at this gig for at least 10 years. He and his associates have probably done more to directly shut down programs while exposing and documenting abuses than almost anyone else.
::poke::
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kat says: "In anycase, think this debate is well worn in other threads and that the merits of state intervention are really difficult to assess, particularly among vastly diverging ideologies and when primarily speculating in theory with little basis in fact... And I think facts can be used to support all sides..."
speculating in theory? What theory applies here? Get paid or be bought off? Kill or be killed? Survival of the fittest? Eat or be eaten? Those are all tried and true theories with quite predictable results. Please explain... vastly diverging ideologies? Again... name some, please.
Plugging the bill reminds me of Palin standing there at the turkey farm laughing, smiling, all the while a live turkey is being forced into the grinder in the background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1N3G37_SQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1N3G37_SQ) :clown: :clown: :clown: :clown: :roflmao
ok, Antigen, I'm just a cranky old goat you know, don't mind me... :roflmao:
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Here's another one:
Palin's Turkey Slaughter (Alternate view)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV2_bHTP_gU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV2_bHTP_gU)[/list]
This clip focuses, from time to time, right up close ... on the instrument of death, with its overflowing basin of blood underneath, as well as panning the pen of doomed dozens bearing witness, awaiting their turn.
Interspersed between Palin's cackles of joy at the holiday (and probably at being subject of the camera), not to mention frequent references to "having fun," are sound effects of the unfortunate turkey currently undergoing "treatment." Death is not instantaneous, and, on occasion, the farmer has to exert effort at pushing the turkey's head deeper into the chute, while its legs flail away...
Surreal, to say the least. Makes ya seriously contemplate becoming a vegetarian.
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The media controls where to conduct the interview not Sarah Palin. I doubt they asked her, ahead of time, if she wanted to position the interview so people could take the focus of their attention away from her and onto a guy slaughtering turkeys in the background.
I also don’t think viewers would think of her any differently because of what Turkey farmers do. Most people are fully aware that they slaughter turkeys in the lower 48 also.
The media has become so biased in this country that it is difficult to decipher what is relevant news and what isn’t and how much filtering is going on. I find it interesting to read what the rest of the world reports (not under the control of US politics) thru reading the BBC, Aljazeera etc.. You would be surprised at what goes unreported in this country.
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If you don't think the Governor of Alaska could say "Hey, maybe we should pick a different angle? I don't like this backstop" to a local TV station, you're dumber than we thought. Conducting an interview while poultry is being ground up behind you isn't the best of ideas unless you're Frank fucking Purdue.
Oh well, it sure beats trying to argue around murdered children, doesn't it Whooter?
You would be surprised at what goes unreported in this country.
The best irony is when the person delivering it has no idea what it is.
You and Mrs. Helicopters With Wolves have a lot in common, Whooter.
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You and Mrs. Helicopters With Wolves have a lot in common, Whooter.
:rofl:
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Here is the sand that chafes my vagina, and I'll make it short and relatively to the point. The writer's of HR 911 haven't really gone into the specifics of how they plan to enact this legislation. They haven't addressed the fact that previous legislation on the city and state level has been less than worthwhile. They haven't even really addressed or allowed those who witnessed the state level laws in effect to speak at their hearings.
Why did they rush to ignore all that potentially insightful testimony? Did George Miller want those survivors of Straight Inc. brushed off? I mean they did sit there and see a sign day in and day out that under Florida State Law they could call in abuse. Of course any attempt to do so was met with violence.
HR 911 and George Miller haven't even really taken the time to speak with those who have witnessed just how easy it is to manipulate the phrasing of incident reports to tilt things in favor of abusive programs.
Most of those they absolutely needed to speak with weren't spoken with.
That's why this legislation scares me, because at the very heart of it the legislation is uniformed. It wasn't written with the information needed to make real effective changes towards destroying the abuse in the industry. That's a big concession for me as well, considering I normally advocate destroying the industry entirely, which I still do, but even I can see that this isn't going away entirely.
No, until people like George Miller take the time to do this properly, I see no reason to support half measures that in probability will only create a bigger muddle through vague and poorly executed legislation. Do it right or fuck off is my new motto.
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Do it right or fuck off is my new motto.
:notworthy: :twofinger: :cheers: :rocker: :tup: :tup:
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If you don't think the Governor of Alaska could say "Hey, maybe we should pick a different angle? I don't like this backstop" to a local TV station, you're dumber than we thought. Conducting an interview while poultry is being ground up behind you isn't the best of ideas unless you're Frank fucking Purdue.
Exactly, I think we can safely assume that she was unaware of the Turkeys being slaughtered in the background otherwise she would have asked for another back drop as you indicated.
Oh well, it sure beats trying to argue around murdered children, doesn't it Whooter?
From your avatar I see that you make light of this subject and I have to disagree with you there, Palin is tough on that issue and was an advocate for the death penalty for any adult who murders children. I am not a fan of Palin but agree with her tough stance on kids who are murdered.
Q: Would you introduce--or, if introduced by a legislator, would you support--a bill to adopt the death penalty in Alaska? If yes, which crimes should it apply to?
A (Palin): If the Legislature were to pass a bill that established a death penalty on adults who murder children, I would sign it.
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After watching what cafety actually have to say on the matter, I don't think they view regulation/legislation as a 1 stop magic panacea. They said that legislation in their mind is a start but can not go far enough, and that education is needed to stop parents from putting money into this industry. With this in mind I am struggling to see the issue here. I don't see why those opposed to regulation cant agree to disagree on that one issue but be keen to work with cafety in generally fighting the industry.
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They said that legislation in their mind is a start but can not go far enough, and that education is needed to stop parents from putting money into this industry.
Education is 100% rubbish. There will always be vulnerable parents who fall for, "You need to save your child now before he dies" from money guzzling program owners.
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Thanks, katfish. I found the videos helpful. I know legislation is an imperfect process, but having thought this over a good deal and reviewed the language in the bill, I believe it is worthwhile for a few key reasons, even if I have reservations about implementation.
Forgive me, I may not have every detail of this correct. I'm working from memory.
1. If programs do not follow the law--which is entirely possible--there exists a mechanism for legal recourse. As has been noted in the past, outlawing lynching didn't stop mob killing of blacks, but it made it possible to prosecute those who did it. Laws against theft don't stop burglary and theft, but individuals and society have a way to legally enforce punishment for thieves. You get the idea.
2. It requires that students have access to outside advocates so they can report abuse. Allegations of abuse must be investigated within a given period of time by law enforcement and by state authorities. The allegations and findings from the investigation must be reported to the feds, and the feds must ensure that crimes are pursued/punished. The feds must enter the allegations/info in a national database. A link to the database must appear on the web site and marketing materials of the programs so parents can search the database.
3. Individuals and companies/programs that are shut down cannot move across state lines and open shop under a new name, as we know now happens.
4. There are minimum requirements for the education and training required to hold a certain position. So the education director would have to have a--whatever it is--Masters or Ph.D. in education. This is not currently the case, except with medical people.
I am still focused on trying to make sure kids are never sent to these prisons in the first place, but until they are shut down completely, some protective measures are very worthwhile. I know not everyone will agree with me, but that is my view.
Auntie Em
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1. If programs do not follow the law--which is entirely possible--there exists a mechanism for legal recourse. As has been noted in the past, outlawing lynching didn't stop mob killing of blacks, but it made it possible to prosecute those who did it. Laws against theft don't stop burglary and theft, but individuals and society have a way to legally enforce punishment for thieves. You get the idea.
What state doesn't have laws for child abuse? Lemme know, I'm sure plenty of program owners would be interested in this as well.
2. It requires that students have access to outside advocates so they can report abuse. Allegations of abuse must be investigated within a given period of time by law enforcement and by state authorities. The allegations and findings from the investigation must be reported to the feds, and the feds must ensure that crimes are pursued/punished. The feds must enter the allegations/info in a national database. A link to the database must appear on the web site and marketing materials of the programs so parents can search the database.
Most states that already have some sort of offsite phone line will tell you these tools are vastly under utilized. Manipulating the residents into not using them happens on a regular basis. Didn't work in Florida, and they do have a child abuse hotline, where the police will respond within the hour. How many kids have wound up dead in Florida? The only positive item out of this is the Federalization of child abuse laws within the grounds of a residential program, which would be a positive outcome in my opinion.
3. Individuals and companies/programs that are shut down cannot move across state lines and open shop under a new name, as we know now happens.
Cousin Jubal! Cousin Jubal! You wanna open a program fo' me?
Sho' Cousin Ken...
Yeah dem dere feds shut me down.. I'm gonna give you dat dere money, and you can hire me later as a 'consultant'! If that don't work you can loose me some of my money back at poker night! Just you make sure you whup the shit out of them kids!
WOOO hah! Whupping the shit out of kids is fun!
4. There are minimum requirements for the education and training required to hold a certain position. So the education director would have to have a--whatever it is--Masters or Ph.D. in education. This is not currently the case, except with medical people.
Allow me to introduce you to Three Springs...
Peninsula Village..
Most Aspen programs..
The list really goes on, and this makes me ask, "What is your point about degrees and such?" Most programs these days have the token shill on staff. The shills are part of the abusive process.
A question here to the community..
Do you think most advocates take the time to read or listen to others? I wonder myself because it seems they are woefully ignorant about the reality of programs outside of their own experiences. Again, HR 911 is built on a house of ignorance and good intentions. It is not a step in the right direction, it is a wasted effort.
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After reading this:
http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/146177 (http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/146177)
I have to wonder how a yet another state or federal agency would be able to handle any privately owned program problems. Lots of programs are licensed and abusive.
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That's a state level problem, and the idea of federal intervention makes me cringe. The article very clearly states 53 percent of the kids are inside for misdemeanors. The simple solution is to start right there and begin returning those kids to the community to participate in community service projects. The funds saved from returning those kids to their homes to a scenario that is far more cost effective can be turned around and used to improve the lot of the kids being confined for more serious offenses.
New facilities, better teachers, more oversight, and a closer eye towards long term rehabilitation through job training and voluntary therapy for those who need or want it. Social services can be provided to help with those kids who families are truly broken to prevent them from returning right back to the same situaiton where they came.
At least the situation seems pretty clear cut to me anyway.
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Che’s input ^ in response to the article linked in Rusty Goat’s post (pasted below) gets the heart of the matter.
These kids and the community are not served by parking in them in a facility.
Report Finds Problems Plague State-run Juvenile Detention Centers (http://http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/146177) -by Cindy Rodriguez
NEW YORK, NY December 14, 2009 —A report by a state task force recommended today that Gov. David Paterson close or significantly downsize state run juvenile detention facilities. A draft copy of the report obtained by WNYC, says the facilities are damaging young people and wasting taxpayer dollars.
Jeremy Travis, President of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, headed the task force and says the state must shift from a punitive approach to one that's therapeutic.
The report says 1,600 youth enter the facilities annually, costing the state about $200,000 a year per child. Travis says those resources should be reinvested in services for youth.
"This is a big challenge that we are laying at the doorstep of the state of New York here," he says. "Other states have made the shift and we have every confidence that New York State can make this transformation as well."
Upstate lawmakers and unions that represent facility employees adamantly oppose closing them down, and warn that sending troubled kids back into communities poses a public safety hazard.
The report comes as the state continues to negotiate an overhaul of facilities with the Department of Justice. A two year investigation by the DOJ revealed serious abuse of kids at four upstate facilities.
According to a court memo, the state agency overseeing detention facilities has already urged family court judges not to send kids to facilities unless they pose a danger. The memo outlines a serious lack of services to deal with mental health problems, substance abuse and educational needs.
The DOJ has investigated 100 youth facilities across 16 states and its currently monitoring 65 of them.
The report says 53 percent of kids in detention facilities are there for misdemeanor offenses, including shoplifting and assault.
A link to that should also go in the Government Gulags Forum
The following is excerpted from A Deadly Decision? (http://http://www.rd.com/content/printContent.do?contentId=15302)
"Some parents and juvenile courts don't care about the licensing. They just want a program where they can put kids. The system is so overwhelmed,"
The Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention in Washington, D.C., estimates that 2.3 million kids under 18 go through the juvenile-justice system each year. With a glut of offenders, there are fewer resources for the 10,000 or so kids flirting with vandalism, theft or truancy, says R. Dean Wright, a criminology professor at Drake University in Iowa. It's those types of kids who end up in boot camps. Youth are put into the wilderness or in a military setting, where counselors create a disciplined atmosphere to steer kids straight through hard work, physical exercise and verbal sparring. Other camps feature a rigorous military style, from early morning marching drills to strenuous obstacle courses. All use strict discipline to keep their charges in line.
But two decades of research and results have left juvenile-justice experts divided, says Jerry Wells of the Koch Criminal Institute, a nonprofit think tank in Topeka, Kansas.
Tony Haynes (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=tony+haynes) didn’t deserve what ultimately became a death penalty for his transgressions
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Yep.. same old shit, different wrapper.
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Because the bill is pending action in the Senate, you could always contact your senators and ask them to make changes in the bill to reflect better solutions to the problems you describe, Che. Perfectly legit course of action and I encourage you to apply your knowledge and experience to improving the bill. To be successful in approaching your senators, you will need to be well-versed in the connection between the issue and the people and institutions in your home state, and then not only say what you think is wrong with the bill, but specifically describe how the language should change to address your concerns.
I know you have said, basically, that no government program or law ever worked at all, but that's an absolute view that just isn't true. And it's too easy an answer. A lot of government efforts work a lot of the time--Clean Air/Water Acts, child labor laws, Medicare, women's right to vote, eradication of smallpox and polio, fire departments, etc. There's a reason why there are now more democracies on the planet than any other form of government: democracy, though messy, works better than the alternatives. It's important to exercise your rights as a citizen and voter.
I know nothing's perfect, but I choose to get involved and be part of figuring out the solution. I hope you will, too. I worry if we all walk away from a current effort to bring programs under better control, we will miss an opportunity that will not soon come again. At the same time, I am doing what I can to keep kids from being sent to programs in the first place.
I'm not looking forward to your snarky comments about this, but go ahead. I think we are working towards the same goals, if by different paths.
Auntie Em
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I think if you are worried about my comments you are already aware of the gaping holes in the logic of your own argument.