Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Torn on April 19, 2011, 10:48:51 AM
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I'm probably just going to get flamed to hell and back for posting this, but here goes...
Our 15yo daughter is in a downward spiral. She comes home if and when she chooses. She attends school if and when she chooses. We cannot prove but have very good reason to believe she is sexual active, drinking and doing drugs. (She readily admits her friends do but claims she does not.) She has a history of shoplifting and is a pathological liar. She used to be a straight A student with a bright future. We have tried various forms of therapy - and she now refuses to participate.
We have offered her rewards for good behavior and denial of privileges for bad behavior. She invariably chooses the latter. She uses school as a weapon to threaten us - "let me do what I want or I won't go to school" - unfortunately she has now skipped enough school that it no longer matters.
We've reached the point that we don't know what else to do and are considering the kind of TBS that this forum bashes as "abusive" and "coercive". We're trying to balancing the rights and well being of our daughter against the absolute need for an intervention. I personally had such an intervention when I was 16; I was heading down the wrong path and my mother forced me into a private school. In retrospect I am very grateful; I went on to college and now have a successful professional career. (In contrast, none of my circle of friends "made it".) My case was considerably less dramatic however. I was convinced to go, and our daughter has flat-out refused.
So here I am seeking advise from those whose views are among the most extreme I have found against TBS's. Doing nothing and allowing our daughter to destroy her life is *not* an option. She will not participate in any solutions we have proposed. She is the most dependent independent person I know, and she depends heavily on those she can manipulate - older boys with a car and a job - for she was blessed with natural beauty and a quick mind. While she believes this is an acceptable path to success we do not, and as her parents it is not only our right but our obligation to take action, which will be against her will and therefore coercive.
This is not intended as flamebait and I am not a troll. I am posting here because I am sensitive to the inherent risks in the decision we are considering, and am truly trying to do the right thing for our daughter.
Are there *any* programs which would be considered acceptable? When the kid simply won't participate in our efforts to save her from her poor choices, what's a parent to do?
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Let's skip to the important part:
Are there *any* programs which would be considered acceptable?
No.
I don't know your daughter. I'm not a parenting expert. All I can tell you is that the program is not and never will be the answer. Nobody deserves it. In many cases death row prisoners have it easier.
See if you can get her talking to older girls. As terrifying as this is for you as a parent, it's still part of being a teen. The only reason 'the program' appears to have any effect is that nearly all of us mature out of this phase on our own. Don't let a program sales person convince you that your daughter is dead if you don't have her carted off tomorrow. Unless you think your daughter is into IV drugs, painkillers, prostitution, is suicidal, or has already overdosed you have more time than you think. Lots of teenagers experiment with sex and drugs. This isn't the end of the world. Making her feel like you accept her and genuinely care about her well-being (and not just her behavior) would go a long way. I can't tell you how to do that.
I can tell you that sending her to the program will send the exact opposite message, and whatever insecurities she has now will have been multiplied 10 fold by the time she gets out. She will never be able to trust you or any other adult again, and will probably attempt to escape you completely by moving in with her friends or an older boy. By sending her to the program, you will have validated every negative feeling she ever had for you.
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Mark1986 is Whooter ?????
I thought he was gone. Heard a rumor that somebody actually called up STICC. I'd have LOVED to have been a fly on the wall for THAT conversation.
Re: Mark1986 is Whooter
Postby Dysfunction Junction » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:23 pm
One poster said the other day that they called STICC and asked for John Reuben. When he got on the phone this person referred to him several times by the handle "Whooter" during their conversation and Reuben kept responding normally, apparently not even noticing because he used the name "Whooter" for so long here.
Now THAT'S some funny stuff right there. :rofl: :cheers: :nods:
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thomasC,
I want to make sure we're using the same terminology. When we talk about programs, are we talking about *any* institution in which a teen is enrolled against her will, whether it a short term "boot camp" or a longer term boarding school? I've already ruled out the short and medium term programs which I agree sound more damaging then helpful, but am considering a longer term boarding school which includes family therapy. I am not naive enough to believe its all her fault - I have read The Family Crucible - but she refuses to participate in any form of therapy, and there are no "older girl" role models we can offer her aside from those she already knows.
If I understand your position, no form of intervention is acceptable unless her behavior is an imminent threat to herself or others. Is that correct? Part of the problem is that, until she is 18 we are *legally responsible* for her which in addition to providing her room and board means we're liable for any crimes she commits, including shoplifting. She has already been caught twice and we've been given the bills. She is also destructive to our personal property and her behavior toward her younger sister is emotionally damaging.
We may have a philosophical difference here. I cannot agree that a 15yo should be given free reign to make life altering decisions for herself, particularly as she is *not* the sole victim of her choices. I appreciate your thoughtful response.
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Torn, you know your daughter best. I see value in both ThomasC and Mark1985's advice. My advice is to be a parent first. Think of the long term and dont worry about whether or not your daughter will like you or hate you. Dont try to be her best friend, be firm and look after her best interests. She may say she hates you for awhile but in the end she will thank you for being there for her and getting her past this. She will be an adult soon herself and will see that you were trying to help her not hurt her. Dont ignore the red flags like so many other parents do. Stay involved, talk to professionals at her school as a start and keep an open mind to the direction and advice they give you.
Good luck
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^industry troll^
:guesswho: :jerry: "The many faces of Whooter" Now he posts as Marc1986 and Brian23083 just agreeing with each other. Whooter,,,you sick fuck,,,just give it up already,,,you're not wanted here.
@Torn,,,you should know that these "two" posters are the same guy who is banned from here,,,his son overdosed after finishing his program and died,,,but whooter just keeps coming here to recruit parents to send their kids to the same program that didn't help his son,,,he gets paid for every referral to the program,,,wolf in sheeps clothing,,,roping you in. watch out for the industry ppl who make money from your problems and hurt your children. just some friendly advice.
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Repentant Program parent here - I was in exactly your shoes at one time. I made the decision your considering. Please believe me - Thomas C has given you sound advice which shows real insight into the probable outcome. I am not sure what alternative to suggest but I do know that the outdoor bootcamps are terribly abusive and dangerous; and the Faux "schools" which focus on behavior modification are as well. They do much more harm than good.
One thing I wish we had done instead is take the money we spent on "the program" and gone on a nice long vacation together. I wish we had gone to see Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales, Oz and Israel on that money instead. It wouldn't have been a cure, but it would have greatly improved communication and there would be memories to value instead of all this anger and guilt. This may not be piratical for you but it is something to think about.
Speaking of a cure - there is none but time. A good therapist can be very helpful. If she won't go, then you go with out her. They can help you learn how to defuse emotional storms instead of fueling them and may have good ideas how to better encourage more positive behavior. They may be able to help the younger child learn coping skills to minimize the emotional trauma. Possibly they can help you understand the turmoil in your daughter's head so you can better understand why she does the things she does, which may help you feel less angry and more sympathetic. The key is a Good therapist. If they don't seem to be helping after several sessions find a new one.
As for being responsible for her legal issues - shop-lifting and truancy and so on - maybe you can file a beyond control petition with your state court system. They may cal it something else, but you'd go before a judge, explain the problem, show proof of your efforts to control things (therapist business cards and schools records for example) and they will assign her a social worker who may be helpful in getting her to co-operate better. The worst case senerio, she'd end up in a state operated program similar to what your shopping for - but the thing here is - they would have some oversight and accountability for any outrageous harm done to her while there - and listen to me now - this is NOT the case with the private run for profit teen help industry. Also, they would have actual, trained teachers and psychologist on staff. This is also not the case with the private, for profit "school". I am sure the process varies from state to state, and the resources available as well - but this is an option you should strongly consider. That said - avoid anything called :"drug court". http://http://podcast.thisamericanlife.org/podcast/430.mp3
I mentioned time being the cure. I have honestly found this to be true. It's hard to believe at the point your at that there is any hope for the kid at all but it is remarkable how things can change once they reach a certain age - they truly do mature out of it. Focus on damage control - again a good family therapist can help even if she won't go. And please don't think I have no idea what your going through. Until she literally runs away with a circus - or off with the "rainbow people" - I got you beat.
I need to get off here now - but one last comment: Read Maia Szalavitz's book Help at any Cost, how the trouble teen industry cons parents and hurts teens. It is excellent and she provides good, sound helpful advice as well as eye opening information about the industry. http://http://www.helpatanycost.com/
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In my experience, when speaking of the troubled teen industry, those claiming the highest success rates are also the biggest liars and worst abusers. If they claim anything like 80 or 90 or 97 or 98% success, hang up the phone and block your email.
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Torn, Marc, and Brian are all the same poster.
Nuke the thread.
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I was in your shoes 4 years ago. There is is hope and you will manage without these programs . We went through hell with our daughter - there were times when I was desperate and scared. The truth is, that we did what every good parents does: be there for her when she needed us and let her make all the mistakes she needed to do. It was the hardest thing in the world...I never gave up on her, I helped her, I listened to her when she was ready to speak, I cried with her, I argued with her....To this day I don´t know why she had to go through all this... To this day I am not sure what helped the most - was it my patience and love? Or time and maturing? When I look back I don´t know how I was able to survive it:)
So please, don´t send her away. Search for help ,find a good therapist (my daughter refused therapy but I went and it helped me), talk and connect with your friends and family. It is a phase and she will go through it - she needs your love and guidance and daily presence - not to be send away. Nobody can love her as you do. Nobody knows her as you do.
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One thing I wish we had done instead is take the money we spent on "the program" and gone on a nice long vacation together. I wish we had gone to see Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales, Oz and Israel on that money instead. It wouldn't have been a cure, but it would have greatly improved communication and there would be memories to value instead of all this anger and guilt. This may not be piratical for you but it is something to think about.
I was thinking of one of those family "service vacations," or whatever they're called these days. Where parent(s) plus kid volunteer their time and labor to help those less fortunate or in desperate need due to an environmental calamity or similar. I imagine the time commitment could be on the order of a few weeks or a month. One would have to cough up the airfare (if needed), but, all things considered, that is really small potatoes.
On the plus side, it'd be a different environment and focus, possibly fun, a chance to feel good about yourself for the help you'd be giving someone else, and the parents need never relinquish the oversight of their daughter to the whims and value systems of strangers.
On the minus side, it does entail a commitment of a certain chunk of time, which may make such an endeavor unfeasible depending on one's circumstances...
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We're trying to balancing the rights and well being of our daughter against the absolute need for an intervention. I personally had such an intervention when I was 16; I was heading down the wrong path and my mother forced me into a private school. In retrospect I am very grateful; I went on to college and now have a successful professional career. (In contrast, none of my circle of friends "made it".) My case was considerably less dramatic however. I was convinced to go, and our daughter has flat-out refused.
Which program or "private school" was that, may I ask?
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Torn, Marc, and Brian are all the same poster.
I found this site while researching schools and my first inclination was to write it off as a bunch of fanatical angry teenagers. Pile's response only reinforces that image - really, anyone who considers sending away a troubled teen must be an alias for the Evil Dr. Whooter? Other than him everyone is sane? Sigh.
Fortunately I have found a few voices of reason here. BuzzKill definitely has me thinking. Ursas suggestion is certainly interesting but unfortunately rather impractical for me - I can't take that much time off work.
@Ursas, I won't name the school but its an east coast prep school - definitely not the same type of school we're talking about here. My daughter would probably be expelled within a week. Like I said, I was willing to go, because the other choice my mother offered me was to go live with my father. That wasn't going to happen. :)
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If you don't like her friends now, who do you think she's going to meet in these programs? My best friend was sent to residential therapy centers, she upgraded her drug use from smoking pot to cocaine that was smuggled in and huffing oven cleaner. When she finally got out, she moved to Vegas with a guy she met in the program. She got pregnant by age 19, and the guy started physically abusing her. Last time I saw her, she was trying to get away from him but he was hanging on, she was smoking pot while pregnant, and had no interest in getting a job. She was a college-track kid when I met her in Latin class, her life and personality had totally changed.
I was a bit of a rebel, too. Most of my problems were with my abusive mother. My (divorced) father paid for therapy, I agreed to go. I actually looked forward to it. The first session, the counselor told us that my mom would get the first 25 minutes alone with the counselor, then I would get 25, then we would meet together for the last 10 minutes. What ended up happening is my mother took the whole 50 minutes crying and manipulating the counselor into thinking I was a bad kid. I got pulled in with the two of them for the last 10 minutes, told I was a horrible kid and I needed to obey my mother. Can you blame me for refusing to go again? My side was never heard and I was judged and sentenced. I didn't trust that counselor one bit after that. I don't know what your daughter's experience was like, but that was mine.
There is something at the root of your daughter's problems. Sometimes there are marital or household issues that cause teens to rebel, but it could be something deep and dark, like she could have been molested as a child w/o you knowing it, there are any number of things causing her to 'go wild'. Getting counseling for the parts of the family that are willing to attend is excellent, at least you will be stabilized and have a clear head to deal with the craziness.
I will PM you with a good resource I know about for help. Please, please don't send your child away. My friend who got sent away felt abandoned and thrown out like trash, that was even worse than the abuse she suffered at those facilities. I would hate to see this happen to anyone else. You sound like a really good, loving father; you do have other options. I also can't imagine the court costs are more than what a boarding school would cost (but I realize the sky's the limit if she gets into serious trouble).
Please beware that half the comments on this page are made by industry people who are more interested in lining their pockets than helping your daughter. My heart goes out to you in this time of crisis, I'm glad you are doing research and asking questions. I have faith you will find a safe solution. And might I say, she sounds like a chip off the old block, lol! I'm glad she has spirit and courage, someday those will refine into fantastic qualities.
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Here are some good resources to help evaluate facilities:
http://www.helpatanycost.com/questions.php (http://www.helpatanycost.com/questions.php)
http://www.caica.org/Warning%20signs.htm (http://www.caica.org/Warning%20signs.htm)
(PDF file) http://astart.fmhi.usf.edu/AStartDocs/factsheet.pdf (http://astart.fmhi.usf.edu/AStartDocs/factsheet.pdf)
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A former student in a residential treatment facility is doing a question and answer session on reddit if you're interested.
http://http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gtrdr/iama_survivor_of_wwasp_schools_tranquility_bay/
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Thanks for posting the link, Anon64. It's a fantastic Q&A, the young man went to not only Tranquility Bay, which is indeed one of the most abusive, but also a more 'mainstream' therapeutic boarding school, Cross Creek Academy. He has a very intelligent and unique perspective, and is writing about both the good and the bad he saw those facilities.
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Balls. :timeout: :poison: :clown: :sue: :roflmao:
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Anne Bonney wrote:
Mark1986 is Whooter ??
Sure sounds like him.
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Anne Bonney wrote:
Mark1986 is Whooter ??
Sure sounds like him.
It is. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37049) And so are two other posters in this thread, the OP and "Brian".
Same shit, different day. This whole thread is just a Whooter-troll. He's desperate to get reinstated so he can get his fix of revictimizing abuse survivors and promoting programs to which he refers. If you are unhappy with Whooter's return to trolling Fornits, be sure to PM psy and express yourself. And don't forget to remind him that Whooter is perma-banned and that he promised to ban "all future incarnations" of Whooter's aliases and sockpuppets.
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Now we're up to four sockpuppets in this fake thread. How wonderful. I'm sure everyone really missed this.
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Not me.
Anyway, I thought sockpuppetry wasn't allowed now (except for the OFFA forum).
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Take it to the admin, Frod. Lodge a complaint.
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I'll say this - if the OP is in fact a who sock pukeit it kinda pisses me off. I resent taking the time to respond to such a one as that. If they are a "real" person it is wrong to accuse them but if you have access to behind the curtain knowledge and know this is a farce they should be banned.
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Buzz, I appreciate your response and FYI my wife and I are now leaning toward therapy. We were locked and loaded with two different programs and ready to pull the trigger on one of them. I came here seeking another perspective because of my nagging doubts. Your post, moreso than the rest, has had an impact.
As for DJ, Pile and the rest... get a life guys, I am not Whooter. Is this how you treat everyone new here? I can tell you that you're not helping. if you market yourselves as raving lunatics, you undermine your own credibility. I have no way to prove my identity without revealing personal information, and I have no intention of doing so. Posts are all logged by IP address, right? The site admins should be able to confirm I am not an alias.
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Which two programs are you "locked and loaded with" and how did you arrive at that selection of those?
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I'll say this - if the OP is in fact a who sock pukeit it kinda pisses me off. I resent taking the time to respond to such a one as that. If they are a "real" person it is wrong to accuse them but if you have access to behind the curtain knowledge and know this is a farce they should be banned.
Its difficult to be a first time poster and come to a forum like fornits and ask for advice like Torn has. If you feel the person should be banned if they are a sock puppet you should also want the person banned who accuses others without having the facts. Why chase people away from this forum? Why should we support posters like DJ maximillian etc who try to control all the dialog and decide who is legitimate and who isnt? They post lists of aliases which have no bases or facts to support them. I think it would be best for everyone and the forum if people take their suspicions to the admins via PM's vs feeding paranoia in each thread and chasing away every new guy that comes along. That way if the OP is an imposter than the admins can handle it in a manner that best suits the forum or expose them at that time.
Whether the OP is an imposter or not does not matter to me personally because it generated a good discussion, but more importantly we should not risk chasing a new member of fornits off the board.
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Oh, lordy. Not this guy again. I thought he was banned?
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Which two programs are you "locked and loaded with" and how did you arrive at that selection of those?
One is a wilderness program in Utah, but we've already ruled that one out. I am convinced these short and medium term programs have the potential to backfire, and I am particularly suspicious of any program in the state of Utah. The fact so many are clustered there is a big red flag - exactly what does the state allow that others do not?
The other is a boarding school in a different state. My selection was based on many hours of research (which is how I found this site).
One question in my mind is whether *all* of these programs are evil, or whether the sentiment in this forum is biased by the worst offenders (e.g. boot camps). Clearly there are people who have demonstrated closed-mindedness here, i.e. those who have concluded I am Whooter. If nobody new is allowed to post here without being harassed, maybe you should just close the site to new subscribers and have a circle jerk with those who share your opinions.
The boarding school has a facebook page and some of the graduates have posted positive comments about their experiences. Of course I have no way to verify that these are actual students, but they sure look real. I have not ruled out this option yet, but we have put it on hold. We're going to take the advise of BuzzKill and others, give therapy a try (even if our daughter will not participate) and try to learn some new strategies and coping skills. (Still think I'm Whooter?)
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I’ve ignored the portions of this thread which are who-troll centric in an attempt to interact with you on the level. Your reply to my simple question reads as untruthful. Just an hour ago there were two programs and now suddenly you’ve whittled it down to having ruled out blah,blah, blah... The rest of your reply devolves from simply disingenuous to vulgar and inordinately hostile-- especially for someone pleading ignorance whilst feigning an open mind.
You have an odd hobby tandem troll. I’m bored of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wK6fyNA ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wK6fyNA8Vw&feature=related)
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Eh, you misread my posts then. I submitted applications to two programs, we were accepted at both. I was ready to call a service to pick her up but decided to do more research, applied to the second program. The more I thought about it, the more I felt that the short term program was not for me. Understand that this is all happening in real time.
Sorry if you don't like my attacks on the hypocrites here who fully exercise their first amendment rights and then turn around and try to censor anyone who threatens to disagree with them. I don't recall labeling you as one of them. This is a very stressful time for me and I came here seeking information and advise, and was immediately accused of being an alias for a notorious villain. How do these people expect to help anyone with such tactics?
Write me off as a troll if you wish, I assure you I have no intention of being a fixture here.
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I’ve ignored the portions of this thread which are who-troll centric in an attempt to interact with you on the level. Your reply to my simple question reads as untruthful. Just an hour ago there were two programs and now suddenly you’ve whittled it down to having ruled out blah,blah, blah... The rest of your reply devolves from simply disingenuous to vulgar and inordinately hostile-- especially for someone pleading ignorance whilst feigning an open mind.
You have an odd hobby tandem troll. I’m bored of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wK6fyNA ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wK6fyNA8Vw&feature=related)
Whooter is actually quite easy to spot. He's a non-native English speaker and his idiosyncrasies are simple and obvious. He makes the same grammar and spelling mistakes all the time. Non-native speakers have problems with the written word, often confusing homonyms, because they lack detailed understanding of the English language and therefore can't discern between uses of words and their spelling.
Native speakers understand "advice" is a noun and "advise" is a verb, but both "Torn" and "Whooter" bungle this word regularly. "Torn" got it wrong twice in its last two posts, after claiming to be a "successful college graduate." Both "Torn" and "Whooter" must coincidentally be Romanians with "troubled teen" daughters I suppose?
I've heard the advise before...
I have received advise to let the legal system teach my kid a lesson...
and..
We're going to take the advise of BuzzKill and others...
I came here seeking information and advise...
He usually uses spell check (he has stated this before) but spell check doesn't catch obvious grammatical errors like the above. There are other little quirks that make Whoot-bag easy to spot, but I'll hold onto them for future use.
This thread is nothing more than Whooter trolling and jerking everyone's chains. Another fake parent with a fake, troubled "sexual active" (sic) daughter (*wink*). That much is obvious and apparent.
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Torn, Your entirely within your rights to remain anonymous - this is a large part of Fornits charm. But here is the thing - there are some aroun' these parts that always assume any parent posting is a troll. It is wrong headed and counter-productive to automatically pile on them, calling for their banishment. Being a parent myself I have long tried to explain the answer to stopping the abuse lies largely with helping the parents understand the realities, which can't be done if you chase them off or ban them. All that said, the forum does have a troll problem. Using sock puppets to talk to each other validating each other is rude and dishonest - altho with a nod and wink to certain character actors on the forums - they can be amusing if occasionally profane. Your correct that IP addresses can be compared. I thought perhaps they had been - but if not - I'm still willing to believe your a real parent with a real daughter perilously close to a terrible mistake. If I have helped your family avoid this I am glad. Please read the book I mentioned. (Help at any Cost) It explains a great deal of the history and risks - the hows and whys of the problem - Plus lots of excellent advice about how to find legitimate help for ligament problems.
There is a reason why these programs seem clustered in certain states - Utah being among them. This is b/c regulating, licensing and legislating for health and safety is left up to the states. Some do a good job, some not so good and others not at all. Guess which ones these programs set shop up in?
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Buzz, IP addresses don't mean anything. Whooter is proxied up and posting because all of the IP addresses he has used in the past are banned. If IP addresses were effective at identifying a poster, then Whooter would not be here, but we all see he is. I know this thread is a troll-fest. It's obvious as hell. We all know one of Whooter's many aliases is "Mitt Romney" (Whooter even admitted it), so how do you explain Mitt's presence if IP addresses can be used to track posters? Whooter threw that out as red-herring knowing full well he's proxied up. It's very basic for people who understand such things. You're getting your leg pulled, dear. That notwithstanding, your advice is proper, IMO.
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Native speakers understand "advice" is a noun and "advise" is a verb, but both "Torn" and "Whooter" bungle this word regularly. "Torn" got it wrong twice in its last two posts, after claiming to be a "successful college graduate."
Never mind that advice/advise is among the most common errors in the English language, this is clear and irrefutable proof that I must be Romanian. :rofl:
I was an engineering major, so you might forgive my grammatical mistakes.
This all reminds me of a Monty Python sketch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMJYQ9LKGQ#t=2m08s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMJYQ9LKGQ#t=2m08s)
If I said I really was Whooter, would you then believe I am not? :)
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Epic failure of an epic troll. 0/10. :sue:
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This is b/c regulating, licensing and legislating for health and safety is left up to the states. Some do a good job, some not so good and others not at all. Guess which ones these programs set shop up in?
I figured that out about Utah, and I'm guessing Arizona is also on the bad list. Which states do a good job?
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This is b/c regulating, licensing and legislating for health and safety is left up to the states. Some do a good job, some not so good and others not at all. Guess which ones these programs set shop up in?
I figured that out about Utah, and I'm guessing Arizona is also on the bad list. Which states do a good job?
CA might be a good example. That said, you'll find this industry is absent in the states that regulate facilities. There was at least one such program in CA - Bell Academy - but it didn't last long; plus it was, as I recall, for those very close to "graduating"; so far less overtly abusive than the typical example; and the serious abuse takes place on the first three levels. Even so, they had the students working on the renovations needed in the dilapidated buildings - and the rumor persisted that this involved the removing asbestos insulation. I wish I could say this is an outrageous accusation - but it is all to believable.
I just thought of something else you may want to take the time to watch: Whose Watching the Kids. It is a PBS documentary about the lack of regulations is Montana and something of an expose' on one prominent program in that state.
http://http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/
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Does anyone have experience with the state of Oregon? I understand one school was closed there recently, I don't know if that's good (bad school being shut down) or bad (bad school was allowed to exist for a time).
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In our culture we believe in teaching while being present. Advice from outside is welcome as parenting is learning-by-mistakes. Teenagers of today don't face the same challenges as we did when we were teenagers. I find as a parent that the hardest problem to solve is to break through the massive amount of background noise we have chosen to surround ourselves with. We need to be totally off-line and it is during these breaks the family unit can reconnect.
So how do you get such a chance to bring yourself and your daughter into place where there is total isolation? Remember not even you may have a phone people who know you can use.
One way is to do it with a therapist on the side. Another is just to go far away from the drug suppliers and let a foreign field do the job.
Short term programs do work if there is a plan for the long-term move. And here is the root of the problems concerning most of the residential solutions. They just don't care about aftercare. You cannot remove a person from the society without creating a need for this person to be re-integrated into the society.
When some of researchers look on parent-message boards like conductdisorders, we find story after story about young adults who have used their teenage years in a restricted setting only to be dumped at home or on the streets once the turn 18.
If I were in your shoes I would seek a short term program or simply a wilderness vacation with a guide (in Norway or Sweden, because I am from Denmark). I would aim at getting my child away from our community for at least 3 weeks.
But I would never start out with a wilderness program!. I would see to that redrawals from possible addictions are dealt with in a safe environment and the wilderness is not such a place if we take into account how many teenagers who have died out there.
If detox is an issue it would take 7-10 days. It doesn't take a genius to do a cold turkey, but have medics on speed dial just in case. It would take 3 adults to be on watch 24/7 - properly some muscles in the family. Do you have access to cabin somewhere?
Step 2 would be a wilderness experience. Most we have charted on the Wiki are involved in a financial kick-back system where they get money for referring kids to boarding schools. Don't listen to them. The goal must be a third phase where your daughter can attend a kind of normal school with periodic out-patient therapy when needed.
Step 3 is aftercare. It needs to be planned because in reality it is here the entire project is won or lost. You may have to ask yourself: Is the high school providing a healthy environment for your daughter? Can she focus her energy on something beside school? Personally I wouldn't hesitate to let my children live by relatives out of town, but of course the best solution would be if I could get them to accept therapy and counseling while living at home. Remember you have to find a therapist now and not wait until you return home.
Here are two wilderness programs which we at the present time don't believe are taking referral fees. If we are wrong and they start talking boarding school or anything else finish the program and then leave. They cannot force or manipulate anything with you as an adult present:
http://www.soltreks.com/program-family.htm (http://www.soltreks.com/program-family.htm)
http://yahwehwildernessexpeditions.com/courses.htm (http://yahwehwildernessexpeditions.com/courses.htm)
To our knowledge they have not have any deaths yet and in order to keep it like that it has to be a family expedition. I know one of them is maybe too faith-based but at least then you will have something to laugh at on your trip back home. They are shorter than the normal 30-60 days wilderness programs and for a good reason. They are step 2 instead of step 1. The resistance against working for a change is broken in the safe combination of family and isolation at the cabin.
I will pray for any improvement of your situation.
Please write back if you have additional questions.
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Does anyone have experience with the state of Oregon? I understand one school was closed there recently, I don't know if that's good (bad school being shut down) or bad (bad school was allowed to exist for a time).
We have a directory of schools and programs in Oregon here (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Category:Oregon). Several were shut down over the times.
Mount Bachelor Academy got most time in the media, because it was the jewel in the crone of Aspen Education Group. Once it fell a slide started. They have just announced that 5 program will close and 2 others will merge into existing programs. Their wilderness program Sagewalk had the lasted death of a teenager in residential settings in Oregon, but not the latest death nationwide. In 2010 7 teenagers lost their lives (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims) in residential settings.
On this board we had a case of a teenage girl who just didn't get good grades. This case was not handled perfectly and that is the reason why you should not use your real name here. The girl managed to avoid a Christian boarding school with help from the social services and according to reports from the human rights group Domestic prisoners of conscience (http://http://domestic-prisoners-of-conscience.weebly.com/index.html) she has reconciled with her step-mother so she could continue her studies. In that case the parents had located a boarding school in Oregon which you can find in the directory which have a lovely campus with horses they show the parents but also another isolated campus where they girls are sent out in the woods to log until they get the program. That campus is not shown to the parents. The curriculum is fine if you want a daughter focusing on one single career choice: Being housewife.
On the database we have charted programs in almost any state.
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Here is a listing of abusive and suspect facilities by state. Please be aware that just because a facility is not on this list, it doesn't mean that it's safe.
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title ... ted_States (http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Category:United_States)
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Thanks for the replies Oscar.
Aftercare is indeed one of my biggest concerns with any program. It does no good for us to send her away only to have her return to the same environment, same friends that contributed to the current problems. This is of particular concern with the short term programs (although certainly not my only concern there) - if she's gone for six weeks her boyfriend will be waiting for her. If she's gone for a year will he still be waiting? Possibly but certainly less likely. If we can find a way to deal with the issues while she's at home, it avoids the whole question of re-integrating her when a program is complete.
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The boarding school has a facebook page and some of the graduates have posted positive comments about their experiences. Of course I have no way to verify that these are actual students, but they sure look real. I have not ruled out this option yet, but we have put it on hold. We're going to take the advise of BuzzKill and others, give therapy a try (even if our daughter will not participate) and try to learn some new strategies and coping skills.
Oh, they're probably real. Depends on the place though. Are there any negative comments on that Facebook page? If so, how do other posters react to them? Are they tolerated? Or slammed? If there are NO naysayers, perhaps due to excess censorship, are there negative comments about that same place on other Facebook groups or elsewhere on the net?
The question is, are those positive comments really evidence of lasting benefits and positive changes, or the lingering effects of residual koolaid or even Stockholm Syndrome (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)?
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Oh, they're probably real. Depends on the place though. Are there any negative comments on that Facebook page? If so, how do other posters react to them? Are they tolerated? Or slammed? If there are NO naysayers, perhaps due to excess censorship, are there negative comments about that same place on other Facebook groups or elsewhere on the net?
The question is, are those positive comments really evidence of lasting benefits and positive changes, or the lingering effects of residual koolaid or even Stockholm Syndrome (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome)?
Good questions. There were no negative comments which could mean censorship and could mean good results - or a combination of both - there's just no way to tell from that page.
Clicking through to the girls who posted, at least one of them actually lists this place as her school. One girl wrote that she hated it for the first year and then grew to appreciate it. One girl posted that her life had turned out well and she thanked the school. One thing which is clear from the posts is that the girls bonded with each other and with some of the school staff. Lots of warm and fuzzies, lots of pictures of students having fun climbing, ice skating, playing at a lake etc.
I have found little or nothing about the school anywhere else except Fornits and even here there is no first hand experience, only the assumption that its evil because its a "program".
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My son is 16 and not likely to live much longer due to cocaine/extacy/vicodin addiction. He is down to around 100 pounds (5'9"), can't (and I mean can't) get up for school, and has completely changed in personality. He started "experimenting" with pot at 13 then progressed to getting expelled for selling drugs at school (second offense). We have done hospital inpatient, outpatient, inpatient drug treatment (voluntary and involuntary), group therapy, wilderness therapy, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, family counseling, family contracts, police intervention, and out of control youth. We have moved 800 miles away from where we used to live simply to give him a new start. Now he is seriously near death.
Basically at this point I just want him somewhere safe. Unfortunately that is not home as I have to sleep sometimes and he climbs out his window. He doesn't need money from me as he sells drugs. The police here are absolutely no help (I know from experience as I have called them a dozen times) and I wish we hadn't bothered to move as the police in WA state were much more helpful. CA drug enforcement is incredibly lax and the "incorrigibility petition" seems to not exist in our county. He has been cited twice for non drug related crimes but there have been no consequences, not even probation. If he were on probation we might have a chance but there seems to be no hope of that. If there is a place we can send him that is safe and won't warp him forever please, please let me know.
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Thanks for the replies Oscar.
Aftercare is indeed one of my biggest concerns with any program. It does no good for us to send her away only to have her return to the same environment, same friends that contributed to the current problems. This is of particular concern with the short term programs (although certainly not my only concern there) - if she's gone for six weeks her boyfriend will be waiting for her. If she's gone for a year will he still be waiting? Possibly but certainly less likely. If we can find a way to deal with the issues while she's at home, it avoids the whole question of re-integrating her when a program is complete.
I guess this boyfriend would hardly wait that long but his clones would be everywhere. It is her mindset you need to change. Otherwise the name of the boyfriend would change only, but the next boyfriend would be if the same type.
You need to seek out what the possible option is long-term. Aftercare is 60% of the behavior modification process but at that time most people have blown their money on the previous phases.
What is her general level of motivation?
Does she have goals in life? Realitstic goals or not - is better than no goals - because you can destroy her illusions by taking her to places where she can learn the truth.
One of the lessons in wilderness therapy is to learn that you cannot take the conditions you have been raised under for given. I guess that you as a parent have seen to that your children has a warm bed and they don't starve. They can go into the kitchen and empty it 24/7 leaving you with a logistic problem when it is time to make dinner. A problem you solve because you are a good parent.
In our grandparents time children did work - they helped their parents - so they could survive as a family unit.Today it doesn't function in that way. Personally I want it to be different, so in our family we have decided that the meal friday evening would be bread with something on if our eldest will not tell me what to buy so she can cook it. It has been so since she was 12. Sometime she didn't want to make food and then we all got a tough love lesson. It has become rare. Now we are looking for other areas where she can contribute to our famiiy unit. Maybe you should do the same. Find a task where she has to do a job or choose to let the entire family suffer.
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My son is 16 and not likely to live much longer due to cocaine/extacy/vicodin addiction. He is down to around 100 pounds (5'9"), can't (and I mean can't) get up for school, and has completely changed in personality. He started "experimenting" with pot at 13 then progressed to getting expelled for selling drugs at school (second offense). We have done hospital inpatient, outpatient, inpatient drug treatment (voluntary and involuntary), group therapy, wilderness therapy, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, family counseling, family contracts, police intervention, and out of control youth. We have moved 800 miles away from where we used to live simply to give him a new start. Now he is seriously near death.
(http://http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/4/14/129157567768147297.jpg)
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frosty - if your teen age son is 5'9" and down to 100 pounds while testing + for cocaine and other drugs, you can and probably should get him in a hospital. Call your department of mental health and tell them you need a parent advocate to help you negotiate the court system and you need advise on getting your son admitted to a hospital for substance abuse that has reached life threatening levels. Take tons of notes and make sure they know your taking notes during each contact by phone or in person. This will help you keep straight who said what and also make them aware there is a record of the conversation. A tape recording is a good idea if you can manage it. This could be valuable if they stonewall you. If your telling the truth your son needs medical care and you may need the court system to help you get it, so get busy. Going the "easy" route by paying for one of these private for profit placements would be a terrible mistake. A boy as frail as your son may now be could be easily killed in the standard synanon style program.
I know I probably seem like Maia Szalavitz's publisher - but you might want to get your son a copy of Recovery Options.
http://http://www.amazon.com/Recovery-Options-Complete-Joseph-Volpicelli/dp/047134575X
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My son is 16 and not likely to live much longer due to cocaine/extacy/vicodin addiction. He is down to around 100 pounds (5'9"), can't (and I mean can't) get up for school, and has completely changed in personality. He started "experimenting" with pot at 13 then progressed to getting expelled for selling drugs at school (second offense). We have done hospital inpatient, outpatient, inpatient drug treatment (voluntary and involuntary), group therapy, wilderness therapy, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, family counseling, family contracts, police intervention, and out of control youth. We have moved 800 miles away from where we used to live simply to give him a new start. Now he is seriously near death.
Basically at this point I just want him somewhere safe. Unfortunately that is not home as I have to sleep sometimes and he climbs out his window. He doesn't need money from me as he sells drugs. The police here are absolutely no help (I know from experience as I have called them a dozen times) and I wish we hadn't bothered to move as the police in WA state were much more helpful. CA drug enforcement is incredibly lax and the "incorrigibility petition" seems to not exist in our county. He has been cited twice for non drug related crimes but there have been no consequences, not even probation. If he were on probation we might have a chance but there seems to be no hope of that. If there is a place we can send him that is safe and won't warp him forever please, please let me know.
Some of the previous treatment places have not done their job properly because they have allowed "diagnose shopping". Your son entered the first treatment place with a pot problem. A problem, but not a problem which would threaten his life. U-turn (http://http://www.uturn.dk/) which is program in Copenhagen seem to have found a method which works because it is voluntary for the teenagers and one difference makes this program apart from the rest. They educate the parents and focus on reducing the drug abuse instead of removing it. In fact once the teenagers are in the program they discover that it is hard to reduce drug use so it is easier to stop it. This they can do with parents who have learned a lot about the psychology of drug use.
As parents we can become enablers without us knowing. That's why any treatment program for minors should demand mandatory participation in parent classes for the entire length of the program which do more than just learning the parents to say "no". As a parent you are their role model 24/7. Every action is seen, heard, registered and learned by our children. Maybe that is why God has seen to that kittens are born blind.
I don't know where you can go and get together other parents in the same situation where you live. It might be something the other posters might help with.
Because of the diagnose shopping any solution I could give you would be kind of warehousing until he is 18. From that point you can only pray and cry if didn't work.
One way is to involve the department of social services. It is a dangerous path because they might target siblings too and then parents could lose all their children. In California they sometime use certain places in Utah which have a huge suicide rate among the graduates. So they are in general not that well when it comes to help families with such problems.
Another way is to make a final deal with your son. Put the cards on the table. Explain him that you are watching him die slowly. You don't want and you have tried to force him into treatment. You don't do try this again as it hasn't work. If you have the money that allows you to send him abroad so do it. Find a school on http://www.ibo.org (http://www.ibo.org) and show him the school which he can go to if he detox alone before he leaves. The schools cannot provide therapy but if you choose some abroad he would use so much time on the foreign culture that it wouldn’t be as necessary.
If you don’t have the money then explain him that he can drop out of high school if he chooses to enter the National Guard youth challenge program. The next batch starts out in August according to their websites. In order to enter this program he needs to be detoxed and fit. Offer him that you will help him get fit by exercising with him once he has detoxed.
I hope you find a solution.
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Oscar, you make very good points.
She does have goals... completely unrealistic at this point. She claims she wants to do well in school, claims she wants to attend law school. And she's failing all of her classes and skipping school. But you're right, she's leaps and bounds ahead of kids with no goals at all, and we need to nurture those goals.
I admit that the appeal of wilderness therapy is that she needs to gain some perspective, drop the sense of entitlement and learn to appreciate what we do for her. At the moment I'm fearful that the wilderness programs are abusive, and no matter how frustrated I get, I really don't want that for her. This is why I asked in my original post if *any* program is OK, because there are some apparent benefits to some of these programs but its just damned hard to find reliable information. The program directors tell you they're all flowers and sunshine, while most of the Fornits community is convinced they are all pure evil. I have to believe the truth is somewhere in between, and it likely depends on the program.
Obviously this is a huge financial decision as well and you are right, if we blow a couple years discretionary income on a nine month experiment, we're all tapped out whether it works or not and we still have to deal with what comes next. What's maddening is that we'd much rather use the money to buy her a car, smartphone, laptop, clothes, and everything else she wants - and we've offered these if she would live by our rules, study hard and be respectful. Sadly she'd rather live like an outlaw and then bitch about the things we won't do for her.
I love the Friday night dinner idea. Unfortunately its way too late for that, she never eats with us anyway, and spends as little time at home as possible. Sometimes she comes home to sleep, sometimes she comes home to change clothes, and that's about all. We are very fearful of where this might lead both in terms of her safety and her long term prospects, and that's why we started looking into these programs. At this point we have completely lost control, and she lacks the maturity and judgement to make good decisions on her own behalf.
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Hmmm, the timing is so off here and combined w/ the ^ question as posited sigh... but whatever here goes some of my my loose change
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@Fr0sty :(a few posts back)
The reading recommendations and the advice to stay involved and to take notes from Buzzkill are good, but involving the courts could in all likelihood eventuate “Fr0sty’s” cocaine addicted son being remanded by a California drug court to a Synanon derivative program-- for profit category or not.
At "5’9 and barely a 100 pounds", Frosty’s son…(let’s call him snowball) is dangerously underweight by at least thirty-five lbs.
He could be admitted and held (involuntary psych hold) for observation. If he goes to the hospital first it will lessen the likelihood of court intervention, ( drug court which could require therefore result in criminal charges against him). Following that, it would be up to the treatment team to evaluate whether his current condition qualifies as risk to him enough that Snowball (if at that point unwilling to stay) be held for more than seventy-two hours
This may qualify as gravely disabled, which IIRC includes (in the cases of persons who have a mental disorder) signs of malnourishment or dehydration. However having a mental disorder or having an inability to provide for ones’ self is not enough alone. The petitioner must establish a connection between the mental disorder and dangerousness and the inability to provide for ones’ self.
Which would involve:
Findings regarding a mental disorder (§ 6551)
If the professional in charge of the facility finds that the child is in need of intensive treatment for a mental disorder, the child may be certified for not more than 14 days of involuntary intensive treatment according to the conditions of sections 5250(c) and 5260(b)
This could at least buy you time to get Snowball some fluids and nutrients and somewhat detoxed (to the degree that he will not be high) and possibly more easily reasoned with.
Oscar’s input which seems to be leaning toward harm reduction seems like good advice following detox and nutrients.
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@Torn
Are the members of the group she hangs out with charted?
Here there is a SSP-team (Social services, school, Police) which in general is a gossip group. When non-supervised drinking among teenagers occurs (we have no underaged drinking laws) the police somehow find the place see to that there is food and they start to talk. The night owls (http://http://hello.news352.lu/edito-1550-denmark-s-night-owls-keep-youth-violence-in-check.html) are also alerted so the teenagers can continue to hang out monitored by adults.
A member of the night owls we want to keep our neighborhood safe for our children. So we take turns (I have one night every 3'th month) walking around in our town where things happen.
The group your daughter hangs out with may have parents which are in the same situation as you and might be willing to do something about it. Instead of the school expelling the lot, having the court dealing with them at some point, it might be time if the whole group got taken out of business for the summer. The summer holiday could very well be a trip to a wilderness area with parents and logistic advice from authorities.
However if the group is not charted, have you suggested a normal boarding school to her?
You could tell her that you are so worried that you don’t think that she can reach any of her goals. If she state she has goals etc. then reply that she can prove herself by passing one weekend in a boot camp styled weekend camp. They have one up in Michigan. It will set you back the plane tickets and some 500 dollars. You can get someone to babysit the younger kid and you can take spouse to Michigan too where you can rest at hotel nearby. Here is the link:
http://www.midcoursecorrection.org/faq.html (http://www.midcoursecorrection.org/faq.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIn1JE93Fk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIn1JE93Fk) (Youtube advertisement)
We have not learned of any deaths in this camp. Of course they too work with boarding schools, so don’t buy into their recommendations but use this experience to let your daughter know some of the other kids. Some of them are sent there by their programs because they didn’t follow rules. It might just happen that she learns how awful kids have it in a lot of programs and learn that the best path for her would be to avoid her present lifestyle at least until she is 18.
Have you tried to talk to her while having some to block the door so you could taunt her into proving herself?
It would far more easy to make the option you find for her a success if she is convinced she need a new approach before it is started. Otherwise she will sit it out until she is 18 and then nothing can be done.
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It is important to not forget where you were as a teenager and what she is going through. Take a step back see the situation for what it could be. It is something we don't like to admit but teenagers have sex as do adults. If adults were told not to have sex would you follow it? If adults were told not to drink but it was at the store would you obey that? if you believe she is having sex...I would start by talking to her about practicing safe sex and why you believe she should wait. Expect her to push you away because as of now it sounds like the relationship has already been broken. As for drinking and drugs. Talk to her about the difference between experimentation and addiction. Kids are going to experiment, it's only natural. Hormones were raging at that age were yours? Maybe a trues should be met and a day out with your daughter to go shopping and hang out should be done. These are years you'll never get back. If she feels misunderstood she will rebel on everything you say. Does she have any health issues. Depression, trouble with friends, an abusive boyfriend, sleeping disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome. Anything that could mimic what you are seeing? Sending her away is not going to fix this problem. Sometimes it's not easy but we have to give our children space to breathe, experience freedom, and allow them to make mistakes as much as we want to guide them with the best of intentions. Sometimes we can mix this up and start to micromanage. No child is perfect. Were you perfect at 15? It is important to not forget these times of raging hormones. KNOW HER CYCLE!!! If your daughter is crazy once a month or for 2 weeks out of the month on her cycle...well this is something that affects us all! And our poor boyfriends and husbands too :) Get her a tutor for grades. Let her have freedom to go out. Spend time with her once a month just the 2 of you to do something fun! And she needs a therapist that will not tell you THE PARENTS her private thoughts!! She also needs a journal that can be kept private. I hope this helps and I'm soo glad you reached out!!! Keep us posted on the situation!!! I am seeing a therapist for the rest of my life since the brainwashing I endured. It's not the answer, it will never be. The answer lies within your family. When a couple breaks up and has a falling out one doesn't send the other away. When best friends have a falling out one doesn't ship the other one off for treatment and blame the mess on the other. In this situation it sounds like you and your daughter have had a falling out...no one else can fix this. I do think talking to a therapist could help if you find one she is comfortable with. I also think maybe once a month or 2wice a month a joint session couldn't hurt. I would strongly urge you NOT to put her in an impatient or outpatient treatment. Maybe suggest what I have written and see how she responds. It is 50 50 here on making this work. The damage has been done and the blame game won't get anyone anywhere. Try to keep an open mind with her...she's a teenager with raging hormones, experiencing boyfriend troubles for the 1st time, possibly sex, pressure at school, and at home. Allow her the freedom to discover herself. This is a time when parents don't want to let go and children need to discover themselves. Trust me you don't want her discovering everything for the 1st time in college. Kids who aren't allowed to be teenagers are extremely wild in college. Good luck I hope I have helped in someway. Stand up tall and know everyone makes mistakes and you are doing your best. A new beginning can always be made. :) Keep us posted...much love!
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Unmitigated troll fest. Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents. We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls? Probably not.
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Unmitigated troll fest. Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents. We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls? Probably not.
:blabla:
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It is important to not forget where you were as a teenager and what she is going through. Take a step back see the situation for what it could be. It is something we don't like to admit but teenagers have sex as do adults. If adults were told not to have sex would you follow it? If adults were told not to drink but it was at the store would you obey that? if you believe she is having sex...I would start by talking to her about practicing safe sex and why you believe she should wait. Expect her to push you away because as of now it sounds like the relationship has already been broken. As for drinking and drugs. Talk to her about the difference between experimentation and addiction. Kids are going to experiment, it's only natural. Hormones were raging at that age were yours? Maybe a trues should be met and a day out with your daughter to go shopping and hang out should be done. These are years you'll never get back. If she feels misunderstood she will rebel on everything you say. Does she have any health issues. Depression, trouble with friends, an abusive boyfriend, sleeping disorders, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome. Anything that could mimic what you are seeing? Sending her away is not going to fix this problem. Sometimes it's not easy but we have to give our children space to breathe, experience freedom, and allow them to make mistakes as much as we want to guide them with the best of intentions. Sometimes we can mix this up and start to micromanage. No child is perfect. Were you perfect at 15? It is important to not forget these times of raging hormones. KNOW HER CYCLE!!! If your daughter is crazy once a month or for 2 weeks out of the month on her cycle...well this is something that affects us all! And our poor boyfriends and husbands too :) Get her a tutor for grades. Let her have freedom to go out. Spend time with her once a month just the 2 of you to do something fun! And she needs a therapist that will not tell you THE PARENTS her private thoughts!! She also needs a journal that can be kept private. I hope this helps and I'm soo glad you reached out!!! Keep us posted on the situation!!! I am seeing a therapist for the rest of my life since the brainwashing I endured. It's not the answer, it will never be. The answer lies within your family. When a couple breaks up and has a falling out one doesn't send the other away. When best friends have a falling out one doesn't ship the other one off for treatment and blame the mess on the other. In this situation it sounds like you and your daughter have had a falling out...no one else can fix this. I do think talking to a therapist could help if you find one she is comfortable with. I also think maybe once a month or 2wice a month a joint session couldn't hurt. I would strongly urge you NOT to put her in an impatient or outpatient treatment. Maybe suggest what I have written and see how she responds. It is 50 50 here on making this work. The damage has been done and the blame game won't get anyone anywhere. Try to keep an open mind with her...she's a teenager with raging hormones, experiencing boyfriend troubles for the 1st time, possibly sex, pressure at school, and at home. Allow her the freedom to discover herself. This is a time when parents don't want to let go and children need to discover themselves. Trust me you don't want her discovering everything for the 1st time in college. Kids who aren't allowed to be teenagers are extremely wild in college. Good luck I hope I have helped in someway. Stand up tall and know everyone makes mistakes and you are doing your best. A new beginning can always be made. :) Keep us posted...much love!
That was very insightful,deprograms, I am sure most parents lose the memories of being a teenager themselves and can only focus on the job at hand which is being a parent to a child who is out of control and not understanding what is causing all this behavior. I think it is dangerous to just do nothing but trying to put yourself, as a parent, in the childs place and trying to get closer to the child, as you suggested, is certainly a great first step.
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Oscar,
She has already stated that she won't go to a boarding school (and this includes academic boarding schools, not the therapeutic variety) or any other facility and will run away if we try to put her in one. I am convinced that a transport service is the only way she would see inside one of these places. I believe we waited too long for her to do anything voluntarily at this point, she has such a strong sense of independence (while at the same time being completely dependent on friends/boyfriends/etc who literally feed her, drive her around and give her places to stay when she doesn't want to come home). We don't seem to have any leverage anymore because she has found a network of enablers who give her shelter if we try holding her accountable for her actions.
At this point it seems our only options are:
- allow her to continue running wild and hope she doesn't destroy her future or her life, or
- take control and take her out of this environment against her will, and find a facility which will encourage success.
Neither sounds like a great option, therefore I am Torn.
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Deprograms,
I do remember what I did as a teen - and for that reason I am not really alarmed by her having sex (with the obvious caveat that her getting pregnant would be a disaster), nor is pot or alcohol going to cause me panic (again with the caveat that drinking + driving = death). I did all those things too, and I survived it. I had to repeat one year of school but that seems to have been the worst of it. This is when my mother took control and send me to boarding school, and it turned me around academically because I was surrounded by kids who were all focused on getting into a good college. It did nothing for my vices, which continued unabated.
But I wasn't so extreme as my daughter. I never openly disobeyed or disrespected my parents. I came home every night. When my mother drew a line in the sand and offered me a choice, I took the right path. I hated boarding school - HATED it. Classes six days a week, jacket and tie to all meals and classes, very strict rules. I almost got expelled. But I survived, went on to a highly respected university and have a successful career. Looking back I know with 100% certainty that my mother saved me. None of my friends' parents took action, none of them went to college, none of them found success in life.
I want my daughter to have the same opportunities I've had, and she is rapidly closing every door available to her. My mother shoved me through a door, and I wasn't as far gone as my daughter.
A few days ago thomasC wrote: "you have more time than you think". I suppose it depends on ones priorities. Survival - yes. I don't think she's necessarily on a path to killing herself. Success - no. If she doesn't get it together NOW, she will not get into a good college and she will likely struggle with her future. That doesn't mean she needs a boot camp or even necessarily a therapeutic boarding school (hence maybe I'm on the wrong forum), but she certainly needs something.
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Unmitigated troll fest. Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents. We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls? Probably not.
That's my take. I've banned the new shooter by ip. When I get a little more up to speed on things it mey be time to start making formal complaints to svc. Providers.
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Oscar,
She has already stated that she won't go to a boarding school (and this includes academic boarding schools, not the therapeutic variety) or any other facility and will run away if we try to put her in one. I am convinced that a transport service is the only way she would see inside one of these places. I believe we waited too long for her to do anything voluntarily at this point, she has such a strong sense of independence (while at the same time being completely dependent on friends/boyfriends/etc who literally feed her, drive her around and give her places to stay when she doesn't want to come home). We don't seem to have any leverage anymore because she has found a network of enablers who give her shelter if we try holding her accountable for her actions.
At this point it seems our only options are:
- allow her to continue running wild and hope she doesn't destroy her future or her life, or
- take control and take her out of this environment against her will, and find a facility which will encourage success.
Neither sounds like a great option, therefore I am Torn.
Because we at Spft believes that we cannot afford to treat every parent tread as a troll I will answer this.
@Torn
Have she seen the alternative. I would certainly bring her down to a shelther doing some community service with the family. Phone family members so you can force her there if she doesn't want to go. Get the staff to find someone 5 years out of high school who have dropped out so she can see her future.
Then when you return put the cards down on the table. Face her with two options: Graduate classes or start visiting boarding schools with you. If she wants to visit boarding schools then it is fine. If she doesn't ask to her read about transport firms. I took a random pick in the database and here is one (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Guardian_Angel_Youth_Services) where they clearly states that it is time for handcuffs when they have entered the room. They don't even want you in the room introducing them.
I find it awful that teenagers don't know that there are transport firms out there willing to take them to whatever options parents are willing to pay for. I believe in honesty, so I would outline possible options for my child. Most teenagers would accept that their parents put their foot down. They know that 18 means shelter if they really want to live by themselves. A couple of the boarding schools stories on this blog (http://http://tales-from-the-black-school.blogspot.com/) explains how a number of teenagers ended up in a shelter once they turned 18.
Ask her if she really wants to live in a shelter once she turns 18.
Because your IP number could be banned from this message board I will ask you to continue our thread on this message board instead (http://http://fican.freeforums.org/). I am not in charge as every volunteer at Spft only have one message board to monitor, but you will able to talk to Finn (Username: Wiki Researcher) about your situation.
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Oscar,
You rock. Reading your advice has been worth the abuse I've taken here. Thank you.
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u
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I don't care if Whooter is back or not.7 kids died in residential care in 2010 (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Victims). The number of victims continue to grow.
There is no time for thinking of possible trolls.
Every teenager should know that they risk their lives if they continue to act up in such a way so their parents can be set up by the failed research into what is dangerous for teenagers and what is not.
There is work going on to prove that some of the teenagers stuff is just harmless rite-of-passage. Howoever it will take time.
While this is taking place, I feel that it is our mission to warn teenagers that their actions might not be dangerous themselves, but they are dangerous if the so-called professionals can convince their parents of that their lives could be lost.
Schooling is necessary and while partying in our culture certainly is too, securing future income must not be endangered by the partying. I can understand why Torn is worried. If I lived in a culture where the entire society believed in not knowing when the kids drink because there is a law against it, I would be worried sick. In 2 second I would know where my teenager is 24/7 even if she was drunk. It is our business to know and accept the rite-of-passage people have to undergo to be adults. It is also our business as parents to see to that our kids find their path in life.
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I don’t think that every parent thread is treated as a troll thread here, Oscar. I’ve seen otherwise. I think some people are seeing this one for what it is and calling it a farce. Many will pass or object to such a thread. Why expend much energy going in circles with an insultingly obvious troll who will be impervious to reason, because their real agenda is to simply troll?
I do see your other point Oscar. Your perspective is that the responses to even disingenuous trolls posing as troubled parents may be read by others who can get something out of it. But I also see it from another angle because the trolling doesn’t stop with the initial pretext. It becomes a soap box from which someone who has only the desire to present falsehoods to further their agenda can expound. Remember “Nigel”?
It is the skepticism from having tired of such intrusions that causes many to pass or object, if they don’t see something substantive to connect to in the content.
It’s also annoying. If a troll is going to be so apparently trolly they should at least conjure up a premise that is engaging. They could go with something like: “My daughter is foul mouthed a reality TV star from Staten Island who is addicted to spray tanning and as her contract comes up for renewal she becomes nastier, more determined to launch a line of bacon flavored jello shots on the shopping network and sadly even more orange with each passing day. Help!”
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Just got off the phone with Antigen, who sounded wonderful BTW - happy and in good spirits - and she informed me that she did ban Whooter's IP address that he has been using to post as Torn, Marc1986, Brian23083, Deprograms, Mitt Romney, etc in this thread. Antigen confirmed they are all the same poster.
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Great! Had a feeling about those "guys." Fornits has been better without this Crazy Maker, so I'm relieved.
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I apologize for any distress my posts have caused, but I have not been banned and I am not Whooter. I am currently in discussion with Antigen and others to resolve this. Its difficult for me to prove who I am not without revealing who I am, and I have the same right to anonymity as everyone else here.
I have no doubt that some who have posted on this thread are industry shills, but I am not one of them. And frankly I don't care what the shills have to say; I am not here looking for reasons to send my daughter away - i am looking for reasons not to (i.e. alternatives) since everything we have tried to date has failed and we're getting a bit desperate. If you have never been in the shoes of a parent and seen your beloved child making decisions which threaten her future, you cannot imagine how stressful this is for us, just as we cannot understand how stressful these programs have been to the survivors.
But that's why I am here, to gain a better understanding. I'd prefer to talk about that than to keep going in circles about who you (wrongfully) suspect I may be.
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I It becomes a soap box from which someone who has only the desire to present falsehoods to further their agenda can expound. Remember “Nigel”?
what is "nigel"?
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I apologize for any distress my posts have caused, but I have not been banned and I am not Whooter. I am currently in discussion with Antigen and others to resolve this. Its difficult for me to prove who I am not without revealing who I am, and I have the same right to anonymity as everyone else here.
I have no doubt that some who have posted on this thread are industry shills, but I am not one of them. And frankly I don't care what the shills have to say; I am not here looking for reasons to send my daughter away - i am looking for reasons not to (i.e. alternatives) since everything we have tried to date has failed and we're getting a bit desperate. If you have never been in the shoes of a parent and seen your beloved child making decisions which threaten her future, you cannot imagine how stressful this is for us, just as we cannot understand how stressful these programs have been to the survivors.
But that's why I am here, to gain a better understanding. I'd prefer to talk about that than to keep going in circles about who you (wrongfully) suspect I may be.
It can get a lil like Mardi Gras 'round here sometimes... :D
But, that tends to go with the territory when you consider the insanity that most of us have been subjected to. Between the psy ops performed on us during our formative years, and the psy ops which continue via the manipulative communications of industry proponents, some folks get rubbed kinda raw. Like a wound that never quite heals completely.
I hope you'll explore other threads on the forum in addition to this one and the ones more specific to the program you and your wife are considering. Gems of insight get posted in the darnedest places. There's a search feature in the upper right corner. I would just go directly to "Advanced search," it'll allow you more options.
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I It becomes a soap box from which someone who has only the desire to present falsehoods to further their agenda can expound. Remember “Nigel”?
what is "nigel"?
You mean Niles? Where is Niles anyway?
Torn - I've been busy but I want to comment on your daughters education - you mentioned she was running out of time. I am to tired to write much right now - but even if she drops out next year she has plenty of time - really. This is said with complete understanding of the panic you feel - and the ability to now look back at it - and reassure you she can do just fine once she decides to, even if she throws away several years between 15 and 25. You may need to adjust your expectations and be happy for her as long as she is happy - for now remember to minimize harm with out enabling - a fine line to walk but with practice you can walk it.
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But, that tends to go with the territory when you consider the insanity that most of us have been subjected to.
I'm figuring that out. At first I got angry, e.g. the comment I made in a reply to Inculcated which was not actually aimed *at* Inculcated - sorry about that. Now I'm just frustrated but trying to be patient.
Thanks for the search tip, I am indeed finding more information on the program, and none of it good.
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she can do just fine once she decides to, even if she throws away several years between 15 and 25.
Yeah, I suppose you are right, *if* she decides to. I am worried she'll get pregnant, or get comfortable and dependent on someone who is not good for her, and then never get back on track. She has not surrounded herself with people who will give her a good example to follow.
This is just not something I've ever had to deal with in my family. I was the worst of my siblings but even I got it together in time for college. When I got shipped off to boarding school there was just as much drugs and drinking but the difference in the environment was *all* of these kids were planning to go to college, and nearly all of them did. I can see now that these "therapeutic" schools won't have that kind of effect.
Maybe we should just move to a different state. :-p
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Thanks for the search tip, I am indeed finding more information on the program, and none of it good.
One of the nice things about the "Advanced search" function is that you can specify forum and/or poster, as well as a host of other things, e.g., narrowing it down to topic titles only and the like.
You can also perform a forum specific search by going to the actual forum itself and do a search using another search button located somewhat to the left just above the box of listed topics. An analogous search button is also thus located just above the block of posts within a topic for a topic specific search (some of these threads go on forever).
For specific quotes or article titles I usually do a site specific Google Advanced Search. I generally only make use of one or both of the first two blocks noted in their collection of parameters. Type in "fornits.com" (no quotes) for the site to point the search here.
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It becomes a soap box from which someone who has only the desire to present falsehoods to further their agenda can expound. Remember “Nigel”?
what is "nigel"?
You mean Niles? Where is Niles anyway?
Nigel= Program parent who tuned in regularly for a while to regale us with tales of the "progress" his son was making at (of all places) Aspen Ranch. A lot of contributors to that thread (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28446&p=342683#p342683) gave really great info and advice.
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Niles doesn't post here anymore, he doesn't have time to deal with the bullshit.
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Niles doesn't post here anymore, he doesn't have time to deal with the bullshit.
Yes, I had noticed him missing for some time now. If you "talk" to him tell him his old nemesis sends her love ;-)
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Unmitigated troll fest. Whooter shows up a few days ago and all of a sudden we have 2 new troubled parents and a pack of first time posters offering advice (or "advise") to the fake parents. We may have to contact the offices of Troll Control Inc. to drop a troll bomb in this thread. Did you ever think to stop feeding the stray trolls? Probably not.
That's my take. I've banned the new shooter by ip. When I get a little more up to speed on things it mey be time to start making formal complaints to svc. Providers.
:tup: :tup:
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Epic failure of an epic troll. 0/10. :sue:
I agree; the jig is up.
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she can do just fine once she decides to, even if she throws away several years between 15 and 25.
Yeah, I suppose you are right, *if* she decides to. I am worried she'll get pregnant, or get comfortable and dependent on someone who is not good for her, and then never get back on track. She has not surrounded herself with people who will give her a good example to follow.
This is just not something I've ever had to deal with in my family. I was the worst of my siblings but even I got it together in time for college. When I got shipped off to boarding school there was just as much drugs and drinking but the difference in the environment was *all* of these kids were planning to go to college, and nearly all of them did. I can see now that these "therapeutic" schools won't have that kind of effect.
Maybe we should just move to a different state. :-p
Problem is, coercion always has its cost. When the "cure" runs the risk of doing more damage than the "disease," that's something that should give any parent pause. But that's also something you and your wife really have to weigh for yourselves. You really know your daughter best.
You might want to do some research on just what the behavior modification methods used at this program entail, and the effects this may have on your daughter, especially long term. Most of these places use some form of peer group pressure, often in encounter group sessions, aka seminars, aka raps, using the group as a crowbar to affect/change the behavior and self-image of individuals.
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“My daughter is foul mouthed a reality TV star from Staten Island who is addicted to spray tanning and as her contract comes up for renewal she becomes nastier, more determined to launch a line of bacon flavored jello shots on the shopping network and sadly even more orange with each passing day. Help!”
:rofl: :feedtrolls: :beat: :roflmao: ::puke:: :guesswho: ::poke:: :notworthy: :rocker: :beat: :jamin: :rofl: :rofl: :blabla:
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The absurdity of this thread is baffling, we have 2-3 people trying to give advice to this parent. If I may say it is posters that comment here very often and have earned a great deal of respect. All the while we have another crew working just as hard to rip apart the conversation here.
I would think at some point you would give the posters who are communicating with this parent the benefit of the doubt and move out of there way. I don't believe Oscar, Buzzkill and Ursus need to be educated on the parodies of Fornits.
Maybe we could all learn something from their actions.
Just say'in.
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she can do just fine once she decides to, even if she throws away several years between 15 and 25.
Yeah, I suppose you are right, *if* she decides to. I am worried she'll get pregnant, or get comfortable and dependent on someone who is not good for her, and then never get back on track.
Never is a very long time. It might take her two years or ten, but from what you describe, I don't think 'never' is likely. Even if she does have a child - even if she does have an un-pleasant lay-a-bout for a boyfriend - her life can turn out remarkably settled and respectable enough.
She has not surrounded herself with people who will give her a good example to follow.
Honestly - I do understand. You would find it hard to believe the kind of crowd I've had knocking at my door looking for my kids. Many of them have been quite memorable. There was the vampire - a couple of those actually. The guy who used a pair of crutches even tho his limbs were fine. Another who wore a heavy winter coat in mid-summer; Yet another who fancied himself the king of our town - Others who were just really dim, or really mean, or really rude. Kids called Delicious and Cheezy and Machine. And yet - somehow things have turned out good enough. I have said to friends that I can't do a lot of bragging, but I do have a lot of interesting stories to tell :) And truth be told - lately I can even brag a little.
This is just not something I've ever had to deal with in my family. I was the worst of my siblings but even I got it together in time for college. When I got shipped off to boarding school there was just as much drugs and drinking but the difference in the environment was *all* of these kids were planning to go to college, and nearly all of them did. I can see now that these "therapeutic" schools won't have that kind of effect.
No - these "schools" do not have the effect of a legitimate boarding school - they have more the effect of a POW camp - and I'm not thinking of one run by Kernel Klink when I say that. She may be an older student when she gets into Uni but she'll almost certainly go - simply b/c it is true enough that an apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Be it nature or nurture - we carry a lot of our heritage with us whether we like it or not. Some struggle all their lives to brake away from troubled family histories and others who stray from solid foundations eventually fall back into the values and responsible nature they grew up with - as long as they aren't pushed so far away they can not return.
Maybe we should just move to a different state. :-p
Well, if it is an option, maybe you should. But even this wouldn't be a cure. Remarkable how these kids find each other. One thing I didn't mention yet- speaking of the kids - you don't need to support the negatives or validate wrong thinking - but it can help if you aren't actually hostile. I didn't want some of those clowns around - but I did on occasion feed them because they were hungry. With only a couple of exceptions, I tried to treat them with some respect - I tried to keep a sense of humor - but I was always clear what I would not tolerate - and I think this made it a little easier for the kids to trust me enough to help when I really needed it - and for me to be able to tolerate them when I needed to.
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I'm probably just going to get flamed to hell and back for posting this, but here goes...
Our 15yo daughter is in a downward spiral. She comes home if and when she chooses. She attends school if and when she chooses. We cannot prove but have very good reason to believe she is sexual active, drinking and doing drugs. (She readily admits her friends do but claims she does not.) She has a history of shoplifting and is a pathological liar. She used to be a straight A student with a bright future. We have tried various forms of therapy - and she now refuses to participate.
We have offered her rewards for good behavior and denial of privileges for bad behavior. She invariably chooses the latter. She uses school as a weapon to threaten us - "let me do what I want or I won't go to school" - unfortunately she has now skipped enough school that it no longer matters.
We've reached the point that we don't know what else to do and are considering the kind of TBS that this forum bashes as "abusive" and "coercive". We're trying to balancing the rights and well being of our daughter against the absolute need for an intervention. I personally had such an intervention when I was 16; I was heading down the wrong path and my mother forced me into a private school. In retrospect I am very grateful; I went on to college and now have a successful professional career. (In contrast, none of my circle of friends "made it".) My case was considerably less dramatic however. I was convinced to go, and our daughter has flat-out refused.
So here I am seeking advise from those whose views are among the most extreme I have found against TBS's. Doing nothing and allowing our daughter to destroy her life is *not* an option. She will not participate in any solutions we have proposed. She is the most dependent independent person I know, and she depends heavily on those she can manipulate - older boys with a car and a job - for she was blessed with natural beauty and a quick mind. While she believes this is an acceptable path to success we do not, and as her parents it is not only our right but our obligation to take action, which will be against her will and therefore coercive.
This is not intended as flamebait and I am not a troll. I am posting here because I am sensitive to the inherent risks in the decision we are considering, and am truly trying to do the right thing for our daughter.
Are there *any* programs which would be considered acceptable? When the kid simply won't participate in our efforts to save her from her poor choices, what's a parent to do?
Torn, please understand you are not alone. We can help you make the right decisions for your daughter. Let us help you.
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Torn, please understand you are not alone. We can help you make the right decisions for your daughter. Let us help you.
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Don't know what to do next? Don't worry. We do.
(http://http://www.collegewiseghana.com/images/ieca_logo.png)
Priceless.
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Hello, Ursus! Thank you kindly for your high praise. I'd like to correct one item in your statement, however. Our services, while they seem quite priceless to parents, are actually affordable to nearly everyone. We offer a sliding scale fee in order to make a new boarding school placement for your child possible in today's economy. Many of our academic service providers have offered to help bridge the gap in parents' finances in order to allow their children to attend some of the most prestigious private boarding schools with special purposes available today.
We give a little so you can get a lot!
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Damn it, get this shill the fuck out of here!
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Hello, Froderik! I take umbrage with your characterization of my presence here. While I am an academic adviser, I am certainly not a "shill" as you describe. We offer valuable, effective services to families with troubled children who are not thriving at home. Please keep an open mind to what we offer. I am open to discussion, but we must maintain some degree of civility.
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Epic failure of an epic troll. 0/10. :sue:
I agree; the jig is up.
Yep. Mitt Romney's IP was banned and all of Whoot-bag's other aliases got caught up as well. Funny. Mitt gets banned by IP and Torn responds "Why did you ban my username? I'm not Whooter!" Too many identities to keep straight, eh, Whoot-bag? Went and told on yourself to boot. Classic.
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Isn't Kahn Whoot? When will his IP be banned?
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I think maybe its Fucktard's evil twin...
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Oh, in that case...
Is. Dr. FT a real doctor, or does he just play one on TV?
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The absurdity of this thread is baffling, we have 2-3 people trying to give advice to this parent. If I may say it is posters that comment here very often and have earned a great deal of respect. All the while we have another crew working just as hard to rip apart the conversation here.
I would think at some point you would give the posters who are communicating with this parent the benefit of the doubt and move out of there way. I don't believe Oscar, Buzzkill and Ursus need to be educated on the parodies of Fornits.
Maybe we could all learn something from their actions.
Just say'in.
I am doing catch up on this thread. I wish people would listen to your good points. Is it possible to find out if Torn has really been banned? Do the admins say what rules he broke so the rest of us and new people can avoid making the same mistake?
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frosty - if your teen age son is 5'9" and down to 100 pounds while testing + for cocaine and other drugs, you can and probably should get him in a hospital. Call your department of mental health and tell them you need a parent advocate to help you negotiate the court system and you need advise on getting your son admitted to a hospital for substance abuse that has reached life threatening levels. Take tons of notes and make sure they know your taking notes during each contact by phone or in person. This will help you keep straight who said what and also make them aware there is a record of the conversation. A tape recording is a good idea if you can manage it. This could be valuable if they stonewall you. If your telling the truth your son needs medical care and you may need the court system to help you get it, so get busy. Going the "easy" route by paying for one of these private for profit placements would be a terrible mistake. A boy as frail as your son may now be could be easily killed in the standard synanon style program.
[I know I probably seem like Maia Szalavitz's publisher - but you might want to get your son a copy of Recovery Options.
http://http://www.amazon.com/Recovery-Options-Complete-Joseph-Volpicelli/dp/047134575X
We've been going down this road with him for a long time. I appreciate your suggestions, unfortunately I have tried the mental health department option and there is no help forthcoming. As I mentioned before, I have tried to involve the court system as well as probation but these systems are overwhelmed and no help. He has been cited twice for non-drug related offenses in the past 7 months and is still not on probation. I know the probation officer his case will hopefully be sent to and she is a great resource but unable to do anything offically until his file is on her desk. He has been hospitalized before but in California cannot be hospitalized against his will unless on a 5150 involuntary hold (danger to self or others, meaning basically suicidal or violent.) He went to inpatient treatment in January but didn't finish the program. Since drug treatment programs are voluntary for minors in California I have no way to compel him to get treatment without sending him out of state. It comes down to the fact that he has the right to refuse treatment and does so, even though he is basically killing himself. I am not new to this, as we have been through many types of treatment.
Someone else mentioned that the problem was "diagnosis shopping" or something to that effect. He was already doing cocaine when he got busted twice for selling pot at school in 9th grade. He was also hospitalized the summer before because he basically flipped out. This was in Washington state, where again, kids over 12 cannot be hospitalized involuntarily unless they are on a psychiatric hold. At the time he met the criteria and was in the psych ward for three weeks. As far as a diagnosis went, none was forthcoming since they could not catagorically say that his mental condition was NOT caused by drugs. Since then I have found that hospitals will not admit if there is a possibility that symptoms are related to drug use. Psychiatrists are equally unwilling to treat kids on drugs.
To sum up, this forum is far from the first place I have looked for help for my son. I have probably spent thousands of hours reading, in therapy, attending parenting groups, courses, and Al-Anon. My son has seen many therapists, psychiatrists, and been through intensive DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy.) I do not want to institutionalize my son but I also do not want him to die as a result of his addiction. I belonged to a support group for parents of children like my son. As you probably know, there are much worse cases. I stopped going after a while because it was so depressing. The thing that most struck me was the near complete lack of success stories. Almost no one's child got better, whether they went the "troubled teen industry" route or not. Ditto Al-Anon. That was probably the most heartbreaking as the addict "children" of one group were in their 50's!
So if I am unable to help my son what can I do? By the way, both the police and the probation officer suggested therapeutic boarding school as one of two options they knew of that had any success with kids like mine. The other was to take away absolutely everything: no phone, no computer, no bed, no door on his room and only one change of clothes. Anyway, I will read the book you mentioned, as I don't think I have read it yet. Perhaps there is something in there I haven't come across yet.
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I once bought these dvds: http://http://www.escapemeth.com/
Not saying there was an instant cure or anything ridiculous like that, but there is little doubt they did help. I have to admit I have not seen them and have no idea what is portrayed. They vanished from the house as soon as they arrived - and then the comments started coming in from various kids - where did you get those? Why did you buy those? Man that really freaked me out - and some of those kids worked hard to get off the shit.
Going strictly on your sons height and weight and drug use - I'd argue he is committing passive suicide - and I'd argue it loudly to the mental health department and the social workers. To be blunt - they need to be afraid he'll end up dead and you'll have a civil case. Getting him in a hospital won't cure him, but it will get him a good look over and one hopes in a situation where he will be able to gain some body weight and health back; also it might result in getting him connected with a therapist he'll be willing to work with.
There are plenty of successes in substance abuse. I have a cousin who was a "hopeless" drunk - he says one night as he was picking discarded wine bottles off the street and sucking the last few drops from them and realized "I really do have a problem" - and he quite drinking. You'd never know he was the same guy today. But it was his decision and this is the key. What I like about Recovery Options is it offers real options - and sometimes this is what a person needs - not everyone responds to "meetings"; and it is always better if the patent feels they have some say and control in how their problem is treated.
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Fr0sty, A drug abuser is usually blind to the effects that he has on other people so you will never be able to rationalize with him. He will always tell you (and himself) that his friends are much worse off than he is and they are doing fine, Based on the information you gave so far there is little chance life will improve with your son at home. You know that your child needs to be placed into a detox facility. Insurance will cover up to 30 days on average so you need to think of the next step after your child is detoxed. Life must be really hell right now for you.
Another thing as you look for recovery programs be wary of programs which talk about recovery rates much higher than 50 %. Your son has a 50/50 chance of recovering after his first try.
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I have not been banned and as far I know, none of my IP addresses were either. I've been quiet the last few days because I'm out of town with spotty internet access.
For the few who seem to care, I am officially converted - I cannot imagine any scenario in which we will send our daughter to one of these programs. I am convinced they do more harm than good, they will certainly not further our goals for her academic achievement, and she still shows sparks of interest in doing the right thing. We want to fan the flames of her ambitions rather than snuff them out. We're going to start family therapy, with or without her, and we'll weather the storm while she grows out of this stage of reckless immaturity.
Many thanks to those who offered sage advice, and to those who continue to protest in vain about my presumed identity, you too have helped, if only by showing what kind of person I do *not* want my daughter to become.
Best wishes for you all, especially the survivors,
-- Torn
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After all of that trolling, logging in, logging out, proxying up, et cetera Whoot's efforts are relegated to the OFFA garbage can right where they belong. Perfect.
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I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes in our lives we make wrong decisions, it is important that parents should look after the well being of their children. It's not your fault that your daughter had made wrong decisions that may affect her life with tremendous consequences, what you can do is guide her to the right path during her life. Its very important that while shes still young you can instill the right path in life. There are lots of organization and institution that caters to what your undergoing juvenile boot camps (http://http://www.teenbootcamps.org/) can be a great example, they have specifically designed programs to help you as a parent and also for your daughter.
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Hello, LeahKrosses! I also recommend boot camps. Only for children though, not parents. Remember, it's the children who need punishment, not their parents. Plus boot camps are inexpensive.
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I'm sorry to hear that, sometimes in our lives we make wrong decisions, it is important that parents should look after the well being of their children. It's not your fault that your daughter had made wrong decisions that may affect her life with tremendous consequences, what you can do is guide her to the right path during her life. Its very important that while shes young you can instill the right path in life. There are lots of organization and institution that caters to what your undergoing, juvenile boot camps can be a great example, they have specifically designed programs to help you as a parent and also for your daughter.
Oh, sending kids into those boot camps is sure to remedy quite a variety of ills, eh? Especially ones more pertinent to your employer's cash flow, Leah...
::)
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I have not been banned and as far I know, none of my IP addresses were either. I've been quiet the last few days because I'm out of town with spotty internet access.
For the few who seem to care, I am officially converted - I cannot imagine any scenario in which we will send our daughter to one of these programs. I am convinced they do more harm than good, they will certainly not further our goals for her academic achievement, and she still shows sparks of interest in doing the right thing. We want to fan the flames of her ambitions rather than snuff them out. We're going to start family therapy, with or without her, and we'll weather the storm while she grows out of this stage of reckless immaturity.
Many thanks to those who offered sage advice, and to those who continue to protest in vain about my presumed identity, you too have helped, if only by showing what kind of person I do *not* want my daughter to become.
Best wishes for you all, especially the survivors,
-- Torn
Wishing you the best as well!
Sometimes it's real easy to see things as being worse than they really are, especially when viewed through the lens of a concerned parent. The fact that she still shows "sparks of interest in doing the right thing," and the fact that you recognize it, speaks volumes!
Kudos to the both of you for trying to keep the focus on real goals that are in her long term best interests such as academic achievement, rather than pro forma compliance with familial rules and regulations. Of course, I'm sure it would be a lot easier on ya to have both, but... some things are more important! :D
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We took the advice of some here and started counselling for us (parents) without our daughter. The key of course is finding someone competent and I believe we've found a good one, who specializes in this field.
Its a very difficult thing to do, letting go and watching your child make bad decisions - but aside from setting herself back academically and ruining her once (model potential) beauty with piercings, shaved eyebrows and skin damage from poor makeup decisions, I don't think she's in significant immediate danger. She may be doing drugs, she may get pregnant - but its her life and all we can do is try to offer guidance if and when she is willing to listen. That's basically what we've learned from therapy, that we need to try new strategies for motivating her but ultimately we cannot control her. Programs are an extreme response for desperate parents who are willing to spend an entire college fund or life savings to get their kids back on track but really I think when it has reached that point its too late to assert control.
Midway through the school year she had her grades up to A's and B's in all classes. She ended with 4 F's and a D. Its heartbreaking to watch. I think she got a wakeup call when her summer plan to get a job was dashed by the requirement of a work permit from school, which they would not grant because she had 30+ truancies. Now she's in summer school and claims an A so far. All I can do is watch and hope. Rewards await good behavior, so I hope she can find the path.
Thanks again to those who helped us avoid making a bad decision. And for the rest, I hope you find peace too.
-- M
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Thank you for the update. I have wondered at times how your family was getting along. I know what your living through is heartbreaking. It is cold comfort to be told it could be so much worse; and little else to be told things will get better in some distant seeming someday. I really wish you could see what my family was like ten to 15 years ago and how different things are now. It would give you considerable hope :) Not to say things are perfect - but no one and no family ever is - and how boring would that be anyway? Think of your friends with their seemingly (b/c it is an illusion) perfect families - dull as dish-water aren't they? Try and keep a sense of humor about things and take lots of pictures of the wild hair and so on - they may provide some measure of revenge one day and will surely come in handy as reminders to suddenly very conservative daughters when your grand-children hit their teens.
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Dear Torn, I am so glad you decided not to send your daughter away. Not only would it be damaging but you would miss the most important years of her growth and you can never get that back.
She is showing how motivated she can be when she has internalized certain knowledge like seeing for herself there are certain steps needed to be taken in order to get what she wants: school/job. That is something she had to learn from experience, not from being told. It is good that you are in therapy but be really careful because there are a lot of incompetent or just ineffective ones out there. As a mother of three grown kids looking back I can say without a doubt that each time I took an "expert's" advice against my own instinct it was disasterous. Conversely each time I ignored the experts and external pressure and followed my instincts it turned out to be the exact right thing. You, not the experts, have to live with your decisions so let them be yours.
It may be time to ease up on the "help"...psychiatrically speaking...for your daughter because the more you try to help her that way the more she interalizes the feeling that something is wrong with her that needs fixing. Something both her parents find so wrong that not even they can fix like they used to when she was little. This can be depressing because she can't fix it nor can the experts. The more experts that are involved with their varing and sometimes conflicting advice, the less faith and more resentment she will have as well as the feeling that she must be really bad if even the experts can't fix it.. Also do not tell yourself or anyone else, especially your daughter that think you have failed as a parent. We all feel inadequate and know we can do better but when we guilt ourselves then it is our children who feel like a defective product of our faulty parenting. I used to do that; now if it comes up I always tell my kids I must have been a great parent because they turned out so wonderful. I find whatever positive trait I can and focus on that. Of course it has to be sincere and honest to work. Ask her to teach or show you something; bring out the mentor in her so you have something honest to praise. I also found what worked for me is to lighten up and find the humor in things. We get so intense we forget to have fun and laugh with our kids. Many annoyances and challenges can be minimized with laughter. I find that laughing at myself and my own foibles eases the tension. It is very hard not to relax and enjoy being with someone who makes you laugh; it really is the best medicine, espcially when it seems like there is nothing to laugh about!
Good luck. Trust your instincts above all. When at a crossroads follow the path of unconditional love, it, not societal expectations, will take you where you really want to go. You sound like a good person I hope things go well for your family.