Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Benchmark Young Adult School / Benchmark Transitions => Topic started by: psy on December 09, 2006, 08:54:57 PM
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As requested by Da Gookie (straight outta Three springs mutha fucka .yeeeh!).
For your reading pleasure. ST's clueless parents Greatest Hits.:
from the "Celebrating the Holidays (http://http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001281)" thread.
emphasis added in places
Our daughter has been away from home since March and is now in her 2nd wilderness program and headed for a boarding school in October we hope will be a better fit for her than her last one. While we are past the "shock" of having to place her away from home and have the benefit of this site, other support groups, wise professional counsel, etc., we also realize the upcoming holidays will be our first without her. Certainly some constructive advice I have received is to focus on last year's holidays with her home and recall how tense, scary, and sad they were. We will do that. BUT, we have another teen AT HOME and therefore spending the holidays under the covers doesn't seem like an option. Would be grateful for any advice from parents who've already walked this path...what worked, what didn't, what would you do differently? My best guess is that she may "earn" a very controlled parent visit from us between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just as an FYI, we've been - in the past - big observers of the holidays with rituals, traditions, family, entertaining, decorating, church services, etc., etc., etc. Can't wait to see how I'm going to deal w/our "situation" in our annual Christmas letter...we don't even have a photo of her with the family this year.
Aah. Christmas in program. That brings back some memories. I never did find out what happened to the presents i was sent. Apparantly i didn't deserve them enough and they were confiscated. Oh well. I was more than happy with my 10$ secret santa gift straight from WallMart (no kidding).
We kept the holiday traditions last year, and it was good. As a family, we focused on the meaning of each holiday, and were thankful that we'd found some help and some peace.
We were able to see our son a couple of weeks before Christmas, so we took a photo of the four of us in front of the school's fireplace. I did write a holiday letter, kept it light, and mentioned how tall the kids had gotten and a couple of their interests. It didn't feel right to me to mention where my son was or why, since we'd explained it personally to anyone who truly needed to know, and holiday letters should bear good news not sad. So, I just didn't mention school! That's the beauty of writing--you can omit whatever you want.
At church we simply told people that he'd gone to a boarding school that better served his needs. Again, those who needed to know already did, and happily there was no gossip among the rest.
Thanksgiving was hard. We made the mistake of isolating ourselves. It increased the loneliness. So, for Christmas I invited the whole extended family to our house! I knew I'd need to keep busy, so I chose to do everything myself. Actually, with so much stress-energy to burn and lots of time on my hands, it worked wonderfully. The house was bustling, I didn't have time to dwell, and except for miscounting the chairs at the table (I ate standing up!) it went fine. The best moment was when my son made a surprise call from school to wish us a Merry Christmas! We really needed that connection.
Do listen to your other child. Be positive, but also acknowledge the sadness when needed. You will make it through with grace and prayer, and next year will be different.
Hee hee. A boarding school that "better suits his needs". Whee. I love the horse shit these socialites push at their little Church functions. Makes me want to listen to "Ministry".
We spent Christmas with our daughter "in a controlled environment" in the town where our daughter's RTC was located. We rented a small cottage. It was not ideal. It lacked the traditions and the extended family that make the holidays rich. But, we chose to focus on the fact that we were together. In hindsight, I am sure that it will be one of our most special holidays.
I was grocery shopping one day and the song "I'll be home for Christmas" came through the PA system. I was undone. I steered clear of alot of the holiday hoopla after that. It was what I had to do to get through the season.
We did spend other major holidays without her home. And her 16th birthday. Mothers days ... etc. For me, it was difficult. I put on the happy facade, but truth be known I hated it. I went through the motions for the benefit of the other family members.
My point? If it is difficult for you ... that's ok. Don't try to make yourself feel celebratory.
I agree that it is important to remember that there will be Christmases for years to come. Hang on to that.
Is that guilt i hear. Sweet sixteen in program. And the PARENT hates it. Oh boo fucking hoo. Having personally experienced both Birthdays and Christmas in program.
We spent spent "Christmas" with my daughter, her sisters, step dad and grandmother in another town between wilderness and RTC. It actually was very nice, but we've never made big deals about christmas. It actually wasn't Christmas day - that day she and I spent were flying to the RTC and spent the evening in a hotel and dinner at Denny's. Not something I would recommend! But maybe you can celebrate when you go to visit her.
For the letter I sent a montage of pics, one of which was of her from wilderness (FILTHY) and just said she was in Utah and looking great... no explanation... no one aske questions and in fact I'm not sure the ones who didn't know even noticed. It made me feel good and now the letter looks really cute (I think). I don't feel a need to explain to those who don't ask, but don't mind explaining to those who do, I kind of figure if they judge me or her, it is their problem and they are not worth worrying about. There is enough important to worry about. most people I've run into are incredibly supportive and understanding.
It did help me a lot to remember how much worse it could've been and how tense the year before was.
Good luck!
Rochelle
Oh isn't that sweet. She got a letter from her daughter in wilderness in UTAH and it's just so cute. Warms the heart doesn't it. Anybody check out that 63 days blog yet?
Oh and the people she's run into on ST have just been so incredibly supportive, oblivious, and understanding. They can thank Lon for the feel good kool-aid.
Since it's been a while since anyone weighed in on this and the holidays are closer AND we have new parents participating, I thought I'd "bring it to the top", so to speak. My biggest worry at the moment is that it's possible we may get to visit our daughter the weekend before Christmas and I'm wondering how on earth I'll be able to hold it together for that! It will have been 8+ weeks since we last saw her at that point.
Whee. Visits only if they earn it. Reminds me of where i was. How can parent's be so... Well i think Lon knows the answer to that.
I just visited my son this past weekend and he's doing great at his RTC. So great in fact that they let me have him overnight at my hotel for one night. We were both nervous, but it could not have gone better--even had the requisite-are you going to brush you teeth battle, over which we both laughed because it seemed so normal! Over the weekend we had moe fun than we'd had together in years and talked more than we have in I don't remember how long.
We both decided afterwards that we would hold that time together as our special holiday--so that when the real holiday came, we could both hang onto that and feel good.
He won't be home and it will be so weird--but last Thanksgiving and Christmas were so unpleasant for all of us that I'm just greatful he's safe and in a better place. He's sad, but says he understands. We're all going to try and make the best of it and keep moving forward.
Wow. Wasn't that sweet of them. Well at least he's safe from himself. fucking idiot parent. He says he understands BECAUSE THEY WILL FUCKING INTERVIEW YOU AFTERWARDS IDIOT!. Jeesus.
My biggest worry at the moment is that it's possible we may get to visit our daughter the weekend before Christmas and I'm wondering how on earth I'll be able to hold it together for that! It will have been 8+ weeks since we last saw her at that point.
You may get to see her just before Christmas? Are you serious? Aren't you the one paying for this program? If you want to see her, just go see her. If the program "won't let you" because she's not yet at the right "level" or doesn't have enough "points," then you should remove her immediately and get her to a place where you can be assured that she is safe and is being treated properly. Any place that denies a parent access to their child is neither "therapeutic" nor is it a "school."
For kids that have been in a program for awhile, the holidays might be a good time to consider whether your kid has had enough behavior mod and is sufficiently 'cooked' to come home again. My lucky nephew got to cut short his stay at his TBS. My sister simply decided she wanted him home for the holidays, and he was due to finish the program at the end of January anyway. She figured a couple more months of whatever they do at these places wasn't going to make much difference -- he had already been there 10 months. Besides, the so-called schooling he was getting there was worthless and she was worried about him being away from academics for so long.
Yes, the holidays are a great time for damaged children and damaged families to reunite and start healing. Some of you can't bring your child home for the holidays, out of legitimate fear they might kill themselves or whatever. Fine. But you can still see them. Take them out of their facility and have the holidays in a town near the facility, as several parents here have described.
whoo. one who has a smidgeon of common sense.
techdad,
My take on the holidays and TBS are a little different than yours about just pulling your kid out because you want him to be home with the family, against their advice. Taking a kid out too soon makes it very hard to have to bring him back and in some cases, parents decide to keep them at home for good, or at the very least have a painful scene returning them back to school. We were fortunate that our son had been in the program long enough to have a 3 day off campus visit (which we spent with family during Christmas last year). [/b]It went very well and he was almost relieved to be back to the safe environment.
It is usually spelled out quite clearly when your child is enrolled how the visits, on campus, off-campus or home will go. The schools are sensitive to the needs of both the family and student and at least in our son's TBS they are allowed a home visit if the student is ready, an off-campus (but not at home) visit or at the very least an on-campus family visit for the newest arrivals.
A lot of time, money and heartache goes into placing your child in a program. You need to trust that they know what they are doing regarding visits. I would insist that no matter how long my son had been there that I be at least allowed to come up and visit on campus. That is your right as the parents.
Regarding birthdays and other religious holidays- they were extremely painful for us (more so than for the kids). What got me through was knowing that it is only temporary and he will be home next year, happier and healthier. I am pleased to say that he graduated 3 months ago, spent his 18th birthday with us, our Jewish New Year and next week Thanksgiving. We all have a lot to be thankful for this year. Mostly, having the strength and courage to do what we had to do and while the road has been a bit bumpy, we got through it. He has thanked us and I go to sleep at night knowing that we did everything we could do to get him on the right path. It is amazing to look back at a year ago. So for those in the midst of the the path, hang on. Think of next year! Happy Thankgiving to all. Helene
How much you wanna guess this is an ed-con. "No facility names" makes it a lot easier to cloak your identity as an ed-con. Otherwise you might meet another parent from the same place who might want to meet up.
Lon says it's better to keep names to private pms. Yeah. With no names ed-cons can recommend different schools to different parents. "Oh my kid is at Facility Y" to one parent while "Oh my kid is at facility X" to another.
Techdad- I realize you have a different opinion on these programs, since you chose to NOT follow wilderness with a TBS or RTC, but I don't think you have a good understanding of how many of the good programs work. It is a building process and a program, now a warehouse. When your child is accepted into the program- and in the case of my son's program they turn away many kids and came close to turning HIM away- you commit to a certain term. If kids are leaving whenever the parents think they want to see them, if affects the integrity of the whole program. My kid actually did leave the program early, and he did miss some things from which he could have benefitted. There are very good reasons these kids don't go home for holidays or whenever the parents think it would be convenient to see them. There are good reasons why they are thoroughly searched when they return to school. Missing Christmas with your child can be hard, but not as hard as sitting up all night wondering where he is and whether you are going to get the dreaded call from the police.
Hey Gookie. What might some of those "reasons" be?
Icon 1 posted November 15, 2006 03:56 PM Profile for techdad Email techdad Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote I understand about affecting the integrity of the program, but I strongly believe that in most cases parents & siblings must be part of the therapy process, and not just via letters and monitored phone calls when the program decides.
I wasn't suggesting parents take their kid home or even for an overnight stay at their hotel whenever they want to. But BirdFeeder said "it's possible we may get to visit our daughter the weekend before Christmas," which sounds like the program requires the daughter to earn the privilege of the visit, and I'm sorry but I find that absurd and very un-therapeutic. "Sorry mom & dad, but she's only a Level Two and hasn't earned the right to see you in person at the holidays."
I also understand your statement that the program makes you "commit to a certain term." My nephew was committed to a 6-month term, but of course as the 6 months drew near, my sister was told he wasn't ready yet, so she signed him up for another 6-months. She ultimately forfeited the last two month's tuition when she brought him home early. Had she done everything the program expected her to do, I have no doubt he would've been stuck there until either his parents ran out of money or he turned 18, whichever came first.
Whoa. Somebody figured it out. Like the "12 month average" program i was in. Heaven help the kids with rich parents who don't care.
If you sat in one of the family groups like I have, you would understand the concept of the kid not being ready to see the family. The kid has to learn how to communicate respectfully first. This frequently has to start with meetings WITH the therapist either alone or in a group. Some kids refuse to talk to the parents even by phone. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to have completely unique visitation schedules for each kid. You can't have individual families showing up to visit their kid whenever they choose or it disrupts things for the rest of the kids and the staff. For other kids, earning the right to have the family visit or go off campus is a huge incentive to follow rules and engage in the program.
Somehow I think she knows that from experience. Something makes me think her kids acted out on purpose.
Dear Techdad, it has nothing to do with the fact you are paying for your child's education. WillieNelson (love your name) is right. These kids have usuallly no respect for the parents and have to learn this. Only away from home can they be taught to respect their parents. They feel entitled to so many things in their lives, when, in fact, they are only entitled to a roof over their heads, a bed to sleep in, food and education. You would disturb the routine of the school by just turning up. The school our son attended was expensive but these schools do cost a lot : imagine all the professional staff that is needed. Anyway, I think that it is good for kids to long for their parents. Only the therapists can teach them some respect, CB
:rofl:
She's right about disturbing the routine though. Parents have no idea how much effort goes into putting a nice show on for them.
I think I have a good understanding of how many good programs work, as well as how some not-so-good ones operate. I respect the importance of not disrupting a whole school to indulge a parent whim. I also agree that some minimum time - perhaps several weeks, perhaps more - should pass from initial admission to any visits. That noted, I must agree that the idea that a parent MAY get to see their child after a wilderness program and eight weeks in a controlled therapeutic (presumably) environment, and before a major holiday does seem troubling.
Similarly, the idea of "committing" to six months enrollment at a time seems geared more to the income of the school than to the therapeutic progress of the student. I think a parent should mentally commit that they and their child will see the program through, but should never have a legal/financial commitment extending more than a month or two.
As much as parents may "check out" a school, and as much belief and trust they place in that program, it is still critically important to SEE how things are going, and not rely solely on school reports or monitored communications. Sometimes even the best-intentioned programs just don't work as they should with everyone.
Final note - I think respect has to be learned , but it is not something only for therapists to "teach".
Whoa. One with a brain.
Well this should hold us Until the next big thing.
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I cannot begin to explain in words the loneliness and feeling of absolute and utter despair of spending Christmas in a program.
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Bet ya dimes to dollars the ones with brains are really Fornits members.
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I cannot begin to explain in words the loneliness and feeling of absolute and utter despair of spending Christmas in a program.
Yeah. It really can't be described. It's worse than skipping it altogether. It's knowing you aren't with your family and not being sure if you ever want to again. It's abandonment. It's remembering all the past Christmases with a twist of bitterness. You feel worthless. Like you're some fuck-up of such proportions that you deserve nothing but a 10 dollar wal-mart secret Santa gift. You think "well i must have done something to deserve this".
Did they let your parents send you presents?
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Stealing christmas gifts from children. It is like these people model themselves on Dickens. For shame.
You know there was another ST thread where the girl did come home for thanksgiving but the mum claimed she was regressing because she dared to have a single glass of alcohol with Lunch. On a special occasion. At the age of 19. I would not be surprised if this girl actually became a raging alcoholic just as a way of coping wiht her nutbar relatives! Crazy people!
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From an e-mail from my aunt I was sent on my birthday in program (i didn't get the e-mail until later obviously. I don't know what my aunt was thinking e-mailing me).
Dear Michael,
I am very upset that you did not get the Birthday Gifts on your birthday. I spent extra to have that package sent over night express by US mail, it cost $32.00 and you should have received it by 3:00PM on YOUR BIRTHDAY! I don't want to spoil the surprise, but I want to make sure you get everything. In the box we packed a Spring Jacket with a hood(not black) you look better in blue, big bottle of CK, Small gifts of CK perfume, lotion, 4 bags of cookies, candy, grey t-shirt, light blue t-shirt. Also, I sent you a blank Journal in which I had written something in. that was no one elses business but yours, I also sent you a animal birthday card and I am not quite sure why you did not get that. All the presents were wrapped.
Yeah Benchmark got the presents, and opened the package (mail fraud i know), but I never saw em. Didn't deserve it.
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Gawd TSW, you're making me die here.
BTW, if you get up at 2 am, can you drink in the mornings? Cos I sure do :lol:
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Hmmm when I drink these days, and I do so on rare occasions, I tend to drink all night. This is due to the fact that the subway shuts down at 12 pm at night leaving me stranded in some hellhole district in the middle of Seoul. So rather than spend the 30,000 k on a taxi ride home I generally just spend 60 or 70,000 more on booze and drink till 5 in the morning to catch the first subway home.
It suffices to say this has put a significant dent in my desire to want to be a social drinker.
But sure if you want to start tilting back on the sauce at two in the morning you might as well.
Can't hurt much I guess..
Seems a bit creepy...
But then again it is even far more creepy to send your kid to a program half way across the country that will rape his mind and spirit like a monkey fucking a football.
So if you wanna toss down a few belts at 2 in the morning you go for it.
I was cold and working (at home) and up at two in the fuckin morning man.
:rofl: :rofl:
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Use a blanket???
No. A coat would suffice and be much more practical.
Let me put it this way. I had to take a single tiny section of ACTUAL NEWS and put it with an advert pack the size of the average PHONE BOOK, roll it up, stuff it in a plastic bag thats too small for it, and stuff it in a car, 329 times.
Man, this time of year sucks to be a carrier.
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Right now Im trying to get in touch with Zack de la Rocha. Lets say Im a good broker of information to people who really need it.
Honestly, the only way to innoculate the victims is awareness, and who else would cut a good album about this that would be LISTENED TO? Plus if he got on MTV about this shit it would make the shitstorm over the google video or the askquestions.org/alternet/radio show thing seem tiny. Teeny Tiny.
THEN I GET TO DELIVER IT TO SOMEONES FRONT FUCKIN DOOR LIKE WHEN THEY CHARGED THE BOOTCAMP BOY KILLERS WITH MANSLAUGHTER :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
http://www.zdlr.net/ (http://www.zdlr.net/) <- btw. The fact that they and fornits have not crossed paths yet astonishes me.
But oh man, I just wish I could be a fly on the wall when he of all people realizes whats been going on for so fucking long.
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Yeah Niles, that's what'll solve this, music for wannabe gangsters and pseudo-Razas. What a great idea. :roll:
Putting this on MTV will accomplish two things, and Jack left town.
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Yeah Niles, that's what'll solve this, music for wannabe gangsters and pseudo-Razas. What a great idea. :roll:
Putting this on MTV will accomplish two things, and Jack left town.
Hey its not my fault that wannabe gangsters and pseudo razas listen to it.
Its pretty obvious why I like "know your enemy" though, isn't it?
But yeah, youre right, he did leave the band, but honestly I dont know who could make a decent album about this and not make it some stupid emo shit but make it listened to.
How the hell else do you tell the people who are in danger of being sent to these places about them? :-?
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I want to say, in defense of Birdfeeder that she really had no choice in sending her child away, I'm not going to go into details because that#s for her to tell you if she wants you to know, but it was dire, really dire, not a case of lazy parenting, please don't make what was a horrible and gut wrenching decision for all of the family any harder, I'd hate for her to see this, she had to, understand that.....
The person who posted about the wine drinking.....the child in question was going to kill themselves with the booze at one time, so of course the parents were apprehensive when she drank in front of them, they were scared, but if you read on you'll see the said parent calmed down and got it all into perspective when they realised their daughter was able to have a social drink and leave it at that, it's not just the kids from the programs who suffer later, it's the parents too, even if it turns out it was the best thing to do, they still live with the feeling of 'what if I hadn't of sent them? Would it still have been alright?'
For many it is not a risk they are prepared to take.
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oldenGuru wrote:
We spent Christmas with our daughter "in a controlled environment" in the town where our daughter's RTC was located. We rented a small cottage. It was not ideal. It lacked the traditions and the extended family that make the holidays rich. But, we chose to focus on the fact that we were together. In hindsight, I am sure that it will be one of our most special holidays.
What was missing with the holidays was the extended family and tradition. Um, how about the trust, communication and maybe love that might have existed at one time too is that not equaly important. Christmas in a 'controlled cottage'.. something tells me thats not someting that girl is ever going to forget. Its so weird they dont use program names when they are talking. Even weirder is the fact you can see the truth if you relaly read their posts closely, and yet very few of them ever do. I mean look att he last sentence of the quote above, talk about foolines oneself. I remember those emotional moments when you are given time with parents, I think parents like that small part of the experience the most because its when the kid embraces them starts crying and says how much they love them. Sometimes I wonder if thats what they really view as the progress their child made, but its not real, but I can see how it would seem so to those from the outside.
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Its so weird they dont use program names when they are talking.
They aren't allowed to on ST. Lon says there's too much negativity. (http://http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000060)
:rofl:
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Err, Jena? I wouldn't call our shutdown goals a "hidden" agenda. If it was a hidden agenda, you wouldn't know about it.
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Gookie:
You are either ignorant or speak from inexperience. Because anyone who has been there done that KNOWS that the mental health profession is USELESS. And stays in psychiatric hospitals are USELESS as well. Our daughter went to therapist for close to nine years. Spent several weeks in psych hospitals... which are nothing more than glorified babysitters. It is true that they slapped a few new labels on her and offered her new and cutting edge psychotropic meds and then sent her home with no answers.
And then throw in our most helpful insurance companies who believed that my child should be cured of her suicidal tendencies in 3 days and capable of remaining safe. Doesn't matter what the psych doc says ... 3 days stay for suicidal ideation.
Unless you have tried to find help in the world of mental health professionals spare you would not understand the ineptness of the system.
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Gookie:
You are either ignorant or speak from inexperience. Because anyone who has been there done that KNOWS that the mental health profession is USELESS. And stays in psychiatric hospitals are USELESS as well. Our daughter went to therapist for close to nine years. Spent several weeks in psych hospitals... which are nothing more than glorified babysitters. It is true that they slapped a few new labels on her and offered her new and cutting edge psychotropic meds and then sent her home with no answers.
And then throw in our most helpful insurance companies who believed that my child should be cured of her suicidal tendencies in 3 days and capable of remaining safe. Doesn't matter what the psych doc says ... 3 days stay for suicidal ideation.
Unless you have tried to find help in the world of mental health professionals spare you would not understand the ineptness of the system.
HES WORKED IN PROGRAMS FOR YEARS, DUMBASS!!!
Inexperience my pale white ass.
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Pale?
I'm white as casper?
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:roll:
[troll5]
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Ey Gookie I think we should get into this racket outselves!
Knock some edcons around a little, make them pay some protection money, maybe do our own escorts into the rivuh, eh?
I'll "motivate" a few paisanos if you know what I mean
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Gookie:
And then throw in our most helpful insurance companies who believed that my child should be cured of her suicidal tendencies in 3 days and capable of remaining safe. Doesn't matter what the psych doc says ... 3 days stay for suicidal ideation.
Unless you have tried to find help in the world of mental health professionals spare you would not understand the ineptness of the system.
I am wondering how this works. Is a hospital more expensive that a tbs school even without the insurance? I would think that even if the monthly fees are higher the kid would be there for less long. Or are hospitals exorbidantly expensive?
As to the my child was killing thmselves with booze argument, This gets idea that the kid would be dead gets bandied around a lot. Yet few american kids have died of alcoholism recently. But lets say the kid in indeed a raging alcoholic, it seems that few schools specialise in any one thing so how they can treat the booze hound and the deprressed kid for 2 completely different conditions using the same therapy needs to be questioned. How does that work?
The reason why tthe thanksgiving panicker and parents of that ilk disgust me is because they seem to be using a private family issue to publically badmouth their own offspring. it is all very oh poor me. In the event that the kid is really still stuggling and the parent is not just being hysterical, then why should their difficulties be put on the www for anyone to judge and comment on? If i genuinely had an addiction I dont think i would be able to trust my family if they gave the whole world my story. What posts like this are saying is- feel sorry for me because my kid is ruining my life and that of my family. Not have compassion for my kid because i just want to see them happy.
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Hey, when you figure out why they post their kids probs on the internet, go take a look around at the Jonestowners at struggling teens and see what their motivation is.
:o
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dont listen to them theyre full of it
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Hey, when you figure out why they post their kids probs on the internet, go take a look around at the Jonestowners at struggling teens and see what their motivation is.
:o
Trying to make sense of it all ?? That's why I post there, I don't really find anyone but the people who have experienced the same to be particularly understanding, same reason I post here too - and strangers are easier to talk to
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Hey, when you figure out why they post their kids probs on the internet, go take a look around at the Jonestowners at struggling teens and see what their motivation is.
:o
Trying to make sense of it all ?? That's why I post there, I don't really find anyone but the people who have experienced the same to be particularly understanding, same reason I post here too - and strangers are easier to talk to
It is another way of saying don't drink the special "Kool Aid".
okay....can yopu explain this, it must be an American thing or something, i don't understand
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Before you listen, be warned the audio tapes are chilling and not something you will be forgetting anytime soon. :o
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Before you listen, be warned the audio tapes are chilling and not something you will be forgetting anytime soon. :o
No audio tapes, just loads of gumph I haven't got the attention span to be abe to read through right now, I'l just take your word for it that it's not wise to drink the kool aid
Hey is this the mass suicide/murder of a whole town on the say so of their leader? Where the one guy was found standing who didn't take the drink?
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Before you listen, be warned the audio tapes are chilling and not something you will be forgetting anytime soon. :o
No audio tapes, just loads of gumph I haven't got the attention span to be abe to read through right now, I'l just take your word for it that it's not wise to drink the kool aid
Hey is this the mass suicide/murder of a whole town on the say so of their leader? Where the one guy was found standing who didn't take the drink?
Yeah this is a reference to Jim Jones and the Strychnine kool-aid.
yeah.. you could say it's not wise to drink it. :rofl:
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My point was the Strugglin' "turkeys" as we call them bought into the whole program dogma/mantra/what-have-you hook, line and sinker, and a lot of them becuase they really wanted to!
I'll put it in quotes so you dont think I'm saying this to YOU.. I dont want the tone of this to be lost in translation, though.
Their dogma is that the kid is always 100% fucking wrong for everything, they're recalcitrant little ingrate shits who didn't appreciate all you did for them, even if it was merely open your knees for a few minutes and squeeze them out a few months later and hire a nanny!
Furthermore, YOU ARE THE VICTIM!!! The kid is just a mean little cretin who has to have his will broken to learn to appreciate you and all you've done for and given to them, and you're a stoic little princess who'se caught up in all of it and has to have 'support' for doing the hard thing, sending them away - and its a hard thing to do, and because its a hard thing to do, they need it, and so do you!
Then, the HEALING can begin when they're forced to face whats really going on and admit they are satans spawn (but you're not satan, of course, you're perfect!) and learn to be little stepford robots for you. They have to face accountability and cry and "let it all out" in some seminars or whatever the hell they call the LGATs in thier specific program for a few months, and you get a few of the same, isn't that nice?
Then when the kid comes out and begs permission like a trained poodle to use the bathroom and to wipe his ass (every time he does, of course) you know that your little program child is finally ready to do the last seminars, you pay your last 15,000 dollars and he finally comes home, but if you're afraid to face him you can send him to an AFTERCARE PROGRAM! Hell, you can send him wherever the fuck you wish until he's 18, then ditch his ass and get their full support for 'doing the right thing' for your family and yourself! ;)
That's the 'punch' they drink. I'm not saying YOU as in... you, specifically, I'm saying how they would present it to you. And yes there awas a lot of sarcasm and scathing... venom in my tone.
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Nihilanthic, although I understand why you are so against the programs, I've read enough here to fully understand, and I've only scratched the surface of this site.....You alos have to understand there is always a flip side, having been one of those kids who was 'thrown away' an inconvenience, whatever you want to call it, I am also a parent who spends all day and most the nights in absolute torment with worry as to what's going to happen to my children because of their behaviour, the phone ringing, the door knocking sends me into a state of anxiety you wouldn't belive, because I am so certain that this time they've been hurt or killed - I literally wait for it to happen 24/7, I can honestly say I haven't relaxed for years and years, because I care about my kids
It's not a case of the kids can't do right for doing wrong, they do do things right, of course they do and I always thank them and make sure they know I've noticed every small thing, but, I only have a limit as to how much I can take, people aren't designed to take 24 hour stress like I do, something will give eventually, this doesn't make my kids the devils spawn, nor does it make me a melodramatic over reacting parent, it makes me human
Although I am willing to tough this out with my kids, I didn't bring them into this world for someone else to take care of them, thats my job, I still need to go out, I still need to have some sort of life and release from the constant aggro that goes round in my head, people end up haviung strokes with stress like I have....what good would I be to my kids then?
We all know here that my 19 yr old is going to HAVE to leave the house before all of us end up in mental institutions, he doesn't want to go, he says it'll screw him up, so do I keep him here and risk everyone's well being? I'm sorry to have to use the word, but he IS manipulating me with emmotional blackmail
I haven't taken any of what you said personally, I am simply speaking as someone who would have had her 3 boys in a program a couple of years back if they were available in this country, thankfully they're not, because I just know I would have done it if the option had been there, I certainly wasn't clued up to how some of these places work a couple fo years ago - to me I'd have slept at night pretty sure in the knowledge I'd done the right thing for all of us, not just me, not just them, but for everyone concerned
I hope this brings some perspective on how it works in the mind of a parent of a child who is way out of control
Thanks for reading
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Your 19-year-old is a man grown. He has to act like one. Be sure to tell him that, and just say it flat. Remind him that he won't have to put up with you anymore.
Your younger kids are unruly teenagers. There's no miracle cure for this, no super effective therapy that's going to turn them into something else, and the snake oil that your programmie friends on ST have bought into is guaranteed to make things worse.
Also, they are going to respond to what they see you doing. See what I mean when I say you have to accept your boys as what they are, or at least not react to it? The more you freak out about it, the more they're going to react, and the worse things are going to get. Chill out. Laugh about it, even! "I have a pair of unruly teenagers, and it's my business to make sure they don't get themselves fucked up." Forget all the sadistic nonsense about wanting to keep them under tight control or beat them with a cane- I bet you've said something like that in their presence, haven't you? Great way to up the hate meter, that is. That entire train of thinking leads right off a cliff.
They haven't been listening to what you've been saying and they're not going to suddenly start now. But if you can limit yourself to "I don't want to see you getting fucked up on alcohol or drugs and I don't want to see you fail school, and I don't care about the rest of it", and mean it, they might listen to that.
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Milk I tell them that all the time, I'm always teling them how desperately woprried about them I am, because I don't want them to screw up their lives
I don't freak out on them, I ignore the bad behaviour nowadays because I am simply too exhausted to scream at them anymore, but it doesn't stop me worrying like mad 24/7 - they are just children who are putting themselves in an extremely dangerous situation, i am their mother, I am supposed to protect them from doing so
And yes, you are spot on when you say they've heard me say I'm going to beat them with a cane, actually it was a belt, hell I even carried the threat out a couple of times when I was absolutely despairing, I soon gave up on that, it made everyone feel like crap and made no difference whatsoever, so there's no point (see I really do only do honsesty)
Try to understand though that as a parent, I can't just let them go their merry way making other people's lives hell, including their own and sit back and laugh at it, that's not being a parent, it's just hoping they'll eventually grow out of it, i cannot live with myself in a few years time when they are junkies, dossers, in jail, no hoper losers, knowing I just sat back & watched it a happen, all unfold in front of my very eyes and I did nothing to try & stop them?
I don't think they'll thank me much for being so goddamn lazy that I didn't at least try to put them on the straight and narrow
And all kids need rules and boundaries and a certain amount of control, they are simpluy not mature enough to be making decisions that affect the rest of their lives without some guidance, the decisions they're making right now are only going to hinder them in later life and they will resent me for not even trying to face them in a different direction....this is as much about me and how I would feel if anything bad happens as much as how they would feel, I don't aks much for them, just standards, morals and a happy life, which they won't have if I let them continue as they are.
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they are simpluy not mature enough to be making decisions that affect the rest of their lives without some guidance
Haven't you gotten it through your head yet? Hasn't it been pointed out enough times?
They. Already. Are.
We're talking about kids who are leaving the house for hours, days at a time. They're not fucking coming home until midnight and you're worried about their fucking bedtimes? Exactly how much cognitive dissonance are you experiencing here?
I mean, if you take a pair of unruly, destructive teenagers, where Option A is going out with their friends all night long where they at least have the illusion of supreme independence, and Option B is to come home to you prattling on about standards and morals and worry and treating them like little children, what the fuck do you think they're going to do?! They're openly rejecting you and everything you have to say to them, and you're making it easy for them! And the more you bloody push, the harder they're going to push back, until either you do something irrevocable that's going to turn them against you forever (programs are included in this, but there's other things as well that I'd rather not describe) or you snap like a twig!
Forget what you want! Deal in reality instead!
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Nihilanthic, although I understand why you are so against the programs, I've read enough here to fully understand, and I've only scratched the surface of this site.....You alos have to understand there is always a flip side, having been one of those kids who was 'thrown away' an inconvenience, whatever you want to call it, I am also a parent who spends all day and most the nights in absolute torment with worry as to what's going to happen to my children because of their behaviour, the phone ringing, the door knocking sends me into a state of anxiety you wouldn't belive, because I am so certain that this time they've been hurt or killed - I literally wait for it to happen 24/7, I can honestly say I haven't relaxed for years and years, because I care about my kids
It's not a case of the kids can't do right for doing wrong, they do do things right, of course they do and I always thank them and make sure they know I've noticed every small thing, but, I only have a limit as to how much I can take, people aren't designed to take 24 hour stress like I do, something will give eventually, this doesn't make my kids the devils spawn, nor does it make me a melodramatic over reacting parent, it makes me human
Although I am willing to tough this out with my kids, I didn't bring them into this world for someone else to take care of them, thats my job, I still need to go out, I still need to have some sort of life and release from the constant aggro that goes round in my head, people end up haviung strokes with stress like I have....what good would I be to my kids then?
We all know here that my 19 yr old is going to HAVE to leave the house before all of us end up in mental institutions, he doesn't want to go, he says it'll screw him up, so do I keep him here and risk everyone's well being? I'm sorry to have to use the word, but he IS manipulating me with emmotional blackmail
I haven't taken any of what you said personally, I am simply speaking as someone who would have had her 3 boys in a program a couple of years back if they were available in this country, thankfully they're not, because I just know I would have done it if the option had been there, I certainly wasn't clued up to how some of these places work a couple fo years ago - to me I'd have slept at night pretty sure in the knowledge I'd done the right thing for all of us, not just me, not just them, but for everyone concerned
I hope this brings some perspective on how it works in the mind of a parent of a child who is way out of control
Thanks for reading
There are two things you need to keep in mind
1. You are the exception. Also, they work by making people THINK they are in your position, when they're not. That would be the 'punch'...
2. If you are as well intended as you say you are, you would have pulled them out before too long when you realized being kept incommunicado is not therapy and there's something wrong if they automatically say your child will lie to get out.
Thats why you're not a program parent, basically. There are ways to get kids in the UK into a program, and if you really wanted to you could have.
And yes, I understand that these programs prey on people emotionally, parents included - but if a grown adult falls for this shit, sends their own offspring somewhere out of contact, and lets them drive a wedge, break trust, and believes in the "dont listen to them dont pull them out its MANIPULATION" bullshit, then they are guilty of negligence, PERIOD.
I understand your defence of yourself but... I'm not "going after parents". I'm going after people who let this happen through negligence or actively do it to children.
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No Milk they are already making decisions about how their futures are affected, but their bad ones, and no they are not mature enough to be making those decisions, as they are quite clearly demonstarting, I don't know what you want me to say here, I won't back down because I can't! I cannot sit back & watch them put themselves and me into an early grave, something bad is going to happen soon, they are way out of their league in what they're getting up to - it cannot continue, my main fear being they are going to end up in jail, jail is no good for kids who have mental problems, some proper help is what's needed
I tell them how much I'm worried because they need to know that they are putting themselves in danger and I will always be here when they are ready to talk to me about their problems, I can't do anything about it if you think that'll push them further away, I don't nag, i just talk with them, not at them, with them, not talking to them is not an option, why do you always pounce on me like it's my fault they're behaving this way all the time? It's not my fault, I am a good mother, I would die for my kids, yet everything I say you're there telling me everything I do is wrong, wel i can sit at their school, down the police sattion and listen to that...I am doing my best! THAT is the reality of my situation....don't ask me not to do whatever it takes to keep them safe from themselves because it won't happen, I'd rather they hated me than go identify their bodies.
Niles, point taken, I understand how manipulative these programs can be, I'm glad I didn't come across one I can send my boys to, because I would have done, but your right in saying that the 1st time they said something bad was going down, i'd have pulled them out of there, i don't believe in not taking kids seriously when they say bad shit's happening, I'd rather get them the hell out and then take it up with whoever....knowing my kids are safe while I fight it out
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Of course people are going to blame you. Who else is there? I mean properly they should be blaming your kids- they're responsible for their own actions, after all- but as their parent you're going to get blamed simply for lack of alternatives.
I'm not saying "give up", I'm just saying that your approach is completely back-asswards and counterproductive. Have you ever said anything like this to them?
"If you keep bathing your brains in alcohol, I'm not there to save you from the effects, if you keep failing school I can't change your grades, and if you're going to go out partying with yobs all night long, I'm not there to stop you from getting in a car wreck or getting stabbed! It isn't physically possible for me to take care of you all the time, so you're going to have to start acting like adults on your own! Now you can go out and do what you like, because that's what you've been doing anyway, but if you go and get yourselves hurt or killed it's no one's fault but yours!"
You have to accept the fact that they're maturing, or they never fucking will.
Bring them on this forum and I'll talk to them.
Other than that, I'm leaving this thread and this discussion, as I know when a conversation is going nowhere.
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Of course people are going to blame you. Who else is there? I mean properly they should be blaming your kids- they're responsible for their own actions, after all- but as their parent you're going to get blamed simply for lack of alternatives.
I'm not saying "give up", I'm just saying that your approach is completely back-asswards and counterproductive. Have you ever said anything like this to them?
"If you keep bathing your brains in alcohol, I'm not there to save you from the effects, if you keep failing school I can't change your grades, and if you're going to go out partying with yobs all night long, I'm not there to stop you from getting in a car wreck or getting stabbed! It isn't physically possible for me to take care of you all the time, so you're going to have to start acting like adults on your own! Now you can go out and do what you like, because that's what you've been doing anyway, but if you go and get yourselves hurt or killed it's no one's fault but yours!"
You have to accept the fact that they're maturing, or they never fucking will.
Bring them on this forum and I'll talk to them.
Other than that, I'm leaving this thread and this discussion, as I know when a conversation is going nowhere.
Oh yer I've said all that, I think I've said and tried everything there is!!
I have asked them to come speak with people here & explained that lots of you guys have been teens with problems and given a basic outline of wjhat the site is about.....they have said they are willing to talk, however getting them to come in at a time when I don't want to be up all night with them on the computer is quite difficult, the 13 year old is a little apprehensive because his dyslexia is so severe he doesn't like anyone to think he's 'thick' when his speling's wrong or he cant find the right words, so he'll be a little more of a challenge, I just told him to check out what I've written, i don't want to hide any of what I've said to them, and also he'll see how I type too fast for my brain and constantly make spelling mistakes :D I will try again this weekend to get them to put their point across, it may even help me to get some insight as to what they're thinking and feeling....
I am now off to watch a documentary about people facing their agoraphobic fears.
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Would now be a good time to tell that I am not a touch typist? I think it might have something to do with the bad hand -eye cordination I have been plagued with all my life. But no one notices unless they are with me when I'm typing.
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Doiesn't matter Michael, as long as your message gets across who cares how it's spelt, no one's going to arrest you over it....my 13 yr old is a computer whizz but he gets so frustrated that it takes him an hour to write one sentence bless him
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the 1st time they said something bad was going down, i'd have pulled them out of there, i don't believe in not taking kids seriously when they say bad shit's happening, I'd rather get them the hell out and then take it up with whoever....knowing my kids are safe while I fight it out
I want that on my wall! Signed by you, preferrably. And send a few copies to Lon W. and Ken K, while you're at it... maybe even a Doctor P!
At any rate, speaking from experience... the best way to get someone to start making decisions is to.. let them make decisions. Tell them to get a fucking job and try their hand at life the way they are, and say if they want to come back and go to college after a few years being broke, (if you are willing to help that is...) that you will.
Personally, my problem with being pushed into college was just that. I needed to get time to spend on ME becuase I had basically gone from being a socially inept elementary/middle/highschool student to the same half-person trying to do college... and it wasn't cutting it. I had zero motivation half the time and I needed to get out, make money, meet people, and LIVE LIFE... not just scribble and toil away for four more years.
Maybe they just need to get out and try it on their own, their way, have actual empowerment and independance (and autonomy) and then when they see how it is being uneducated for themself, they might turn around. When you're the one making the decisions and screwing up all on your own, you'll yourself realize what someone else told you but you couldn't accept long ago. Plus I'm sure they'd rather get a nice cushy office job and rake in money, god knows with that awful tax rate you have so little spending money over there :lol:
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They're going to have to, they're ot going to doss round here all day sponging off me because they wouldn't listen, they'll have to learn the hard way but whatever it is they do, I will be proud of them if it doesn't involve taking drugs and mugging old ladies to finance it
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Considering the only 'right' decision a lot of programs ever made was the exit plan isolating them from their parents who sent them off in the first place... maybe you should just do that.
Having to do it and learn yourself vs being coersed in some way or told is a HUGE difference!
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I've come to the conclusion that al I can do is guide them, I told them tonight that I cant make them do anything, they have to want to, but once they've fucked up, it's THEIR fuck up, they'd be ruining their lives not mine, so it's up to them to make the decision to make good now before its too late or face the consequences whatever they may be later on in life
Well at least it didn't make them angry for a change, they just said okay, and came told me they love me
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The thing is they can't really permanantly fuck up thier lives unless they do something worth a long prison term or life imprisonment in the UK... and apparently that isn't the easiest thing to do. Now, here, passing a joint can get you what amounts to a life sentance, but I digress.
Let em go be stupid, and they'll eventually settle down! Everyone needs to run wild at some point in their life, right?
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Yes they do, unfortunately they are on the route to prison, I can't stop them, they know where they're heading, it's up to them now to change that path
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Well at least it didn't make them angry for a change, they just said okay, and came told me they love me
This is the reaction I was expecting.
I can't stop them, they know where they're heading, it's up to them now to change that path
And by their reaction, it sounds like they're going to.
*golf clap* Round of applause, folks. Round of applause.
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I guess we have to reach some sort of rock bottom before anything changes drastically, maybe they've reached it, who knows, I could be tearing my hair out tomorrow, but today it's okay (apart from the damn railway fine I got for one of them!)
Let's hope we're on the up as a family eh?
And they got to watch TV in bed tonight cos they stayed in on their grounding today and they have been pleasant company this evening
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Glad to hear it, Exhausted.
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I guess we have to reach some sort of rock bottom before anything changes drastically, maybe they've reached it, who knows, I could be tearing my hair out tomorrow, but today it's okay (apart from the damn railway fine I got for one of them!)
Let's hope we're on the up as a family eh?
And they got to watch TV in bed tonight cos they stayed in on their grounding today and they have been pleasant company this evening
Okay, one of them owes the family for the price of the fine. An allowance is a kid's fair share of the family resources. A fine is not. I suggest money is not an acceptable form of 'payment' for the fine. How about housekeeping (dishes, vaccuuming) or how about he makes dinner for the family? Fair is fair.
Grounding lacks imagination. Appeal to his sense of what is fair and be creative as to how to balance the scales. Maybe he can can come up with his own idea. Hold a family meeting and decide what is fair as a team.
What I am getting at is that they are too old and out of control for you to be the sole boss and so it is time they were involved in both making and enforcing the family rules.
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Yes I've been trying to rack my brains on how to make him pay a fine off, as he is cut off from all finances right now, simply because he spends the money on cigarettes and steals form me - I'm not financing his smoking and train fares to go wherever it is he goes to, I have however refused him money at the shop for sweets and also not given him money for his youth club this week, not sure that's enough, I'll take up your suggestion and let him decide his punishment
although he categorically denies it and says someone must have given his name (Yer right....do I look stupid?)
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One of things I learned the hard way as a parent is not to threaten the removal of some priviledge or activity that I myself wanted.
His money for the youth club, if this club is something that is positive for him, might not be the thing to cease. Promote the positive.
Based on your description of your sons, I don't have any easy answers. They seem quite independent and willful.
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More like a huge sense of entitlement. Sort of like they are entitled to act they way they act.
Maybe so, but we're too far away and only have one person's written perspective on the situation. From what exhausted has written, I conclude:
These boys have adopted a lifestyle that rides along the fringes of the law. They seem poised to fall either way as they grow, but might just stay in lifestyle they are currently in. There is an absence of positive male role modeling. The 19-year-old is probably the closest adult male the 13-year-old has. This is not a good thing. Older brothers can be a huge influence; especially with no father in the picture.
Am I correct that no father is actively in the picture?
From where I sit, the boys aren't that bad. They just have not had the appropriate concepts of personal integrity modeled for them by close adult males. They don't know what it looks like to be a responsible, caring, adult male. So, they are not growing up.
I don't have clue what to do about it, except to try to instill a sense of personal pride and integrity in them. I think the only way to teach them responsibility is to give them responsibility. That is surely easier said than done.
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Yep you're right in that the male role model is the older brother, and it's not a good one, in fact it's a terrible one, my 1st move has to be that he has to leave the house, I can't say that the younger two are out of control because of his behabviour, they do have their own minds, but I certainly don't think it helps seeing him get away wiht keeping me awake until early hours of the morning swearing & creating, smashing the house up and getting away with it, to their minds, they are only 13 & 14 after all, if he can get away wioth that behaviour, why shouldn't they be able to? I do understand where they come from with that.....it's not just me letting him get away with it either, I call the police, they take him away and then bring him back with a telling off....I'm not protected at all by the authorities
I also discovered recently he has been violent towards them, they haven't told me because they had been intimidated by him into keeping quiet, he smashed the house up with a tennis racket, then hit them with it, hit them with a golf club because he had to get up early to go to court and decided they should be up too - and he also does it when he wants them to make him something to eat late at night, if they refuse he bites them, hits them and beats up on them in general, my problem is that he's getting nastier and nastier towards me - I cal the police and they release him, it's me who gets the backlash once he's free to do so, I can sort of deal with that, although mentally I'm not dealing with it at all well, it's the boys I worry about getting the consequences of his anger
I did have a surprise tonight thogh, my boys came in and it was like someone gave me back the kids I once had, removing their bad attitude and delivering them as they once were, they told me they wouldn't be late but had to go finish helping a neighbour whose wall had been knocked down (they'd been picking the bricks up and stacking them) they also told me a friend of theres, who I really didn't want them hanging out with as he is real trouble, smokes weed and drinks heavily, is always in trouble, had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids :o and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all
As they went back out they said "love you mum, promise not to be back too late" - I'm not fooled, but I encouraged their way of thinking and have left it that I believe them and to stay safe, the normal parent stuff you say, i would never say "I've heard it all before I dont believe you" and I certainly don't expect them not to do something that will get them into trouble, but for now, I want to enjoy the moment while they're in this frame of mind
Just to clarify about the youth club, yes I can understand why you would say to encourage that, but if I give them money, I cnat trust them to actually go - I'm wondering if next week I should take them and pay their money in and then go pick them up - it's humiliating for them I agree, but at least I'd know where the money is going and they're really turning up there and spending my money on what i give it to them for, if they're that desperate to go, they'll understand it's what i have to do for a while until they earn my trust back
So - that's the story so far! Now help me to get the eldest out of here!!!!
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Woah, hold the fuck up... your eldest has been hitting his own little brothers with a fucking golf club?
Jesus no wonder they were so aggressive.
Hasn't it been more than 30 days since you gave him notice to leave? Why,.exactly, is he not gone now? If you were on this side of the pond, you could basically walk into any courtroom in the country and walk out with a temporary restraining order.
if I give them money, I cnat trust them to actually go - I'm wondering if next week I should take them and pay their money in and then go pick them up - it's humiliating for them I agree, but at least I'd know where the money is going
Really easy solution: If the business of fees works the same way it usually does here, write a cheque made out to the youth club and give it to your kids.
had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids :o and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all
You remember when you told them that they were responsible for their own futures? This is a direct ramification of that.
You're completely on the right track with regards to where they're going and what they're doing but I want to warn you about this phrase:
it was like someone gave me back the kids I once had
This is an extremely dangerous line of thinking. Don't ever say this to them or anyone else in person. You can express it this way on Fornits if you like, but thinking "get back the kids I used to have" or any variant leads directly to perdition, with a brief stop in pandemonium. The only way out of adolescence is through it. If they think for an instant that you're trying to go backwards and belittle them (actually the correct word is many times worse than 'belittle'), they might react in horrible, unexpected ways.
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I also discovered recently he has been violent towards them, they haven't told me because they had been intimidated by him into keeping quiet, he smashed the house up with a tennis racket, then hit them with it, hit them with a golf club because he had to get up early to go to court and decided they should be up too - and he also does it when he wants them to make him something to eat late at night, if they refuse he bites them, hits them and beats up on them in general, my problem is that he's getting nastier and nastier towards me - I cal the police and they release him, it's me who gets the backlash once he's free to do so, I can sort of deal with that, although mentally I'm not dealing with it at all well, it's the boys I worry about getting the consequences of his anger
Throw the fucker out. The next time he gets rowdy call the police. While he's gone, have a steel door with a deadlock installed if you live in an apartment. Call the police if he comes back. Buy a tazer / mace / pepper-spray for personal self defense and don't be afraid to use it. It won't kill him and if he's beating up his own brothers he deserves no sympathy at all. Be rid of him and save your other two kids.
had to go finish helping a neighbour whose wall had been knocked down (they'd been picking the bricks up and stacking them) they also told me a friend of theres, who I really didn't want them hanging out with as he is real trouble, smokes weed and drinks heavily, is always in trouble, had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids :o and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all
Finally some good news. Maybe they are starting to see the reality of things around them. There's no better teacher than experience and example.
But first things first. You need to get rid of the 19 year old. As i've said before: "unless a kid is an immediate danger to himself or others he should not be institutionalized". At this point an institution would have to be his choice anyway, and you have to take into consideration the abuse he is dealing out towards you and the rest of your family. He has to go. What have you tried so far to be rid of him?
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No I am not beliitling them, what I meant is, its like someone put the old personalities of 'nice kids' back into them and took the devil inside them away....
but tongiht, again, it's kicked off, everyone is shouting and screaming and swearing and carrying on, all I've asked is they all (all 4 of them) let me have ONE evening where there is no shouting or kicking off, I have sent them all to bed so they are seperated and can't be shouting at each other, but no - they just keep running up & down the stairs - continuing with the shouting and swearing at each other, the 14 yr old has stolen a packet of cigarette papers off the eldest who has threatened to smash his head in for it and no doubt will, I think it's time I leave the house before I become useless to anyone, there's no coping with this carrying on until 1,2, 3 am every single night, there is no let up
As for trying to remove the 19 yr old, as I said, i have called the police everytime, but they keep letting him go - and he comes back here in a more angry mood than he ever was, and it's us who suffer the consequences - the police always let us down, they just make the situation worse
btw, we cannot have posession of mace, tazers, pepper sprays here, it is illegal for anyone but the police to use any of these weapons, i would be arrested for using them
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btw, we cannot have posession of mace, tazers, pepper sprays here, it is illegal for anyone but the police to use any of these weapons, i would be arrested for using them
Pfft. This is insane. So what exactly are you supposed to do in self defense? Use harsh language?!?! To be frank. If I lived in the uk i'd break the law.
Can't you tell the police to remove him, that he's abusive. There has got to be some domistic violence authority in the UK.
Here's the BBC's (http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/domestic_violence/practicalhh_index.shtml) advice on getting rid of the fucker.
specifically this page (http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/domestic_violence/optionshh_index12.shtml) substitute the word "fuckhead son" for "partner".
and here's how you keep him out (http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/domestic_violence/optionshh_index13.shtml)
My feeling here is that you hesitate. Dont.
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yer I know what they say, what they do is totally the oppposite, remember they said if he breaks his tag curfew ONCE he goes straight back to jail? He broke it several times and the last time he went to court, they rewarded him by giving him 2 more hours to play with....o...k
Victim support, hmmm....let me tell you something about them, my best friend was nearly beaten to death several times by her partbner for 9 years, the police promised her they'd take care of her if she helped them put him away, she lived in sheer fear for a year, we al took turns in staying at her house to keep watch, he came through the door on many occassions, bearing in mind this guy had been imprisoned 2wice for the same thing on two previous partners, anyway she did this year in absolute terror, the day before the court case was due, they suddeny dropped the case, no explanation, no back up protection, nothing.
When I have called the police on my son, they have promised me victim support, do you think anyone has ever bothered to contact me? No...there's your promise of stopping domestic violence in this country, and that is why victims of abuse do not report it.
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yer I know what they say, what they do is totally the oppposite, remember they said if he breaks his tag curfew ONCE he goes straight back to jail? He broke it several times and the last time he went to court, they rewarded him by giving him 2 more hours to play with....o...k
Victim support, hmmm....let me tell you something about them, my best friend was nearly beaten to death several times by her partbner for 9 years, the police promised her they'd take care of her if she helped them put him away, she lived in sheer fear for a year, we al took turns in staying at her house to keep watch, he came through the door on many occassions, bearing in mind this guy had been imprisoned 2wice for the same thing on two previous partners, anyway she did this year in absolute terror, the day before the court case was due, they suddeny dropped the case, no explanation, no back up protection, nothing.
When I have called the police on my son, they have promised me victim support, do you think anyone has ever bothered to contact me? No...there's your promise of stopping domestic violence in this country, and that is why victims of abuse do not report it.
NOOO. my country sucks more dammit. stop bursting my bubble. Jeez. No wonder they don't allow firearms in your country. Domestic violence would plummit while the gunshot deaths rate would skyrocket. What you're describing is a good argument for why many people argue that regulation for TBS/RTS/RTC/EGBS/BM/ABC schools would never work. Governments have a notorious record of saying a lot, and doing absolutely jack shit. And when they do actually get around to doing something it ends up being massively botched, usually due to incompetence, corruption, or a combination or the two.
Regardless of your experiences though with your friend, have you tried the approaches mentioned on the webpage? If all else fails, do you have a strong man / group of men you can call (independent contractors) to chuck him out or otherwise handle the situation. Surely there must be at least one sympathetic ear amongst the local police. Have you tried local churchfolk? Go to a gym, make friends with some muscle bound freak with a big "mom" tattoo on his arm. You know the type. The ones that will approach your son and say "are you disrespecting your mother son? WELL ARE YOU!". I'm not suggesting anything illegal, i'm just saying when you throw him out it might be helpful to have some muscle around so he doesn't get any ideas and might think twice about coming back to mess things up.
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Exhausted...
Fucking move to the USA where you can actually have weapons AND USE THEM *depending on what state you live in* and somehow deal with less bullshit than the nanny state feels like putting you through now.
Cheeeeerist lady! How do you put up with that? :o
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oh my god. how old are her other kids?! If any are under 18, my first thought is that she could get the social services involved, which could lead to his removal from the home. yes, police generally are not very good at a lot of things over here unfortunately. The only other thing i can suggest, and i dont know if she has already done this is to take pictures of the injuries recieved, and take them to the police...quite frankly itd ABH what he's doing, and i dont know why he's only getting cautions...she needs to take evidence to the police, see if that would wake them up, maybe ask for an injucntion to be taken out against him, and, if taken to court, to request to the courts that he should not reside there and that she does not want him there. Mind you, its easy saying all that, but if my son turned that way against his sister god only knows what i would do
Anyway...hope that helped!
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no, MP is a Member of Parliament. If she is able to get in contact with her local one, should be easy enough through the council. Yes, the media is a very good idea! Well done you, i wouldnt have thought of that for ages lol. I was thinking about it earlier at work, and i was looking on the internet for somewhere whereby she could perhaps make a formal complaint to the top guys at Social Services, but then i forgot that there are many different social services departments in each county, and i didnt know where she lived lol.
Any other ways the UK is messed up...well...Tony Blair is in charge lol. Prices are highest in Europe (and probably the world!) everything keeps rising, political correctness is getting out of hand, basically, we're slowly turning into a 'nanny state'. I dont know much about the law lol. Only what pertains to our roles at work. Apparently, this new thing has come out whereby men who are arrested on Domestic Violence charges can get off or ave a much lighter sentence, if they can genuinely say sorry in court. Its causing outrage with all the DV helpgroups, because, lets face, it, how easy is it to say sorry and sound genuine? Honestly. Sometimes i want to move! Somewhere far away and hot preferably
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i put up with it because I have to, there are no muscle bound men who are willing to tell him his fortune, do you really think I go out anywhere? That'd mean leaving the kids, i'd come home to the house burnt down or one of them murdered by the other - its not as simple as that....not only that, there is very little that frightens my eldest, he'd fight to the death
I am hoping that the useless social worker who i have seen once in 9 years (that was a week ago0 and who hasn't contacted me again since, will have to help now that everyone is aware there is violence going on, but I wouldn't hoid my breath, blue does not suit my complexion, either they'll do something or he'll end up back in jail the way he's carrying on at the moment and then I can concentrate on the younger two - hopefully bringing them back into the family fold a bit ....it won't last, we're having a rough time, but it won'rt last, something has to give eventually, it can't go on, because no matter what, there will be some intervention in some way
I do wish my eldest was a complete bastard all the time though, it would make things so much easier, he's so lovely half the time, I'd prefer it if I could hate him, but no one can hate him, he's a devil sometimes but such a loving caring lad other times
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Honestly Exhausted ... you have some very serious boundary issues with these kids. If my older son was hitting my younger ones with golf clubs, I would have tossed his sorry ass out so fast he wouldn't know which end was up. Let him go back to jail for crying out loud. His behavior is criminal. It is abusive. You are teaching your oldest that his behavior is acceptable. You are teaching your younger children that it is OK to abuse smaller, weaker people.
You honestly would be better off to place your younger ones in foster care than to continue to allow them to live in such a hostile and volatile situation.
You don't have to put up with this. That is lie ... I might remind you that you are the parent, the adult, the one who pays the bills. To reiterate: throw his sorry ass out and let him fend for himself.
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I do wish my eldest was a complete bastard all the time though, it would make things so much easier, he's so lovely half the time, I'd prefer it if I could hate him, but no one can hate him, he's a devil sometimes but such a loving caring lad other times
That's how most abusers are. When they secretly feel guilty they try to make up for it by being extra nice. It's a pretty standard pattern.
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Honestly Exhausted ... you have some very serious boundary issues with these kids. If my older son was hitting my younger ones with golf clubs, I would have tossed his sorry ass out so fast he wouldn't know which end was up. Let him go back to jail for crying out loud. His behavior is criminal. It is abusive. You are teaching your oldest that his behavior is acceptable. You are teaching your younger children that it is OK to abuse smaller, weaker people.
You honestly would be better off to place your younger ones in foster care than to continue to allow them to live in such a hostile and volatile situation.
You don't have to put up with this. That is lie ... I might remind you that you are the parent, the adult, the one who pays the bills. To reiterate: throw his sorry ass out and let him fend for himself.
In order to place your children in foster care, they have to agree to go - was told this only a few days ago, that is unless I remove myself from the hoouse and they will then be under neglect.....and yes you're right, they do think it's okay to treat me like the eldest - why wouldn't they? He gets away with it every time
I can't kick the eldest out!! Don't you think I would have done by now? The police were called last night on a 999 call and they wouldn't arrst him because they said it would mean them chasing round trying to find him....that was the result of me trying to kick him out, I got a belting off him, this lad is tough as they come and didn't hesitate to beat ten barrels out of me because he wasn't getting what he wanted when he wanted it.