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Messages - psy

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The Troubled Teen Industry / Peninsula Village
« on: October 23, 2006, 06:06:28 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
The point Zen is that you dont know Dominic's situation and you slander him by your words. I hope you get suid! You have no right to bring his name into your forum. And if you are so unhappy with your step daughters treatment, then remove her from PV. But wait! You don't have custody do you? Wonder why?

Are you a fucking retard?!?!  The MASS MEDIA released his name.  Go back to ST where you belong you sadistic prick.

The Troubled Teen Industry / I can believe it
« on: October 22, 2006, 11:53:23 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
If you knew the type of parent I'm dealing with, you would encourage the child to sue.  This is all an ego trip, with the intention of destroying the one child who had the guts to stand up to him and say "no more".  The child's reward was an abusive wilderness/boot camp.  We have no intention of allowing the child to stay until she finishes the program just so she can sue.  I can't give you all the details of what this demonic fuck parent has done, but it would shock even you.

I can believe it.  And if he's truly as you say, I hope he suffers for it.  I realize the dangers of legal action prior to program ending but if I were in her situation I would risk anything to get out.  The program I was in (CEDU clone) only tortured us psychologically (though they phsyically strained us).  The place your daughter is in sounds like it does a whole full range of service.

If you can get a message to her, tell her that you are working on getting her out.  It will give her hope, which is probably the best thing you can do for her directly at this point.  I can't emphasize enough how much doing that would help her.

Programs suck the hope out of you.  You feel like there is nobody on your side, like not even your parents care, like you have been abandoned.  You learn to rely exclusively on yourself becuase your own head is the only private place left (and even that they manage to eventually break into).  Giving her hope will help prevent that from happening, and if it already has, it might help her realize that there actually is somebody who cares.

In my program, we were told by a staff member "if your parents really cared about you they wouldn't have sent you here."  At least in my case, when I thought my parents didn't care, it was an illusion created by the program, which faded away when i realized we were all lied to.  I don't quite know how she is going to deal it.

When she gets out, i would suggest letting her decide who to sue.  After all, she suffered through it.  I would hope that she would decide to help those in program, but i can understand the desire for revenge as well (especially against such a person.)  Then again, she could always sue her father, and then use the money to take on the program (which is probably loaded).

The Troubled Teen Industry / waterboarding
« on: October 22, 2006, 10:21:32 PM »

The Troubled Teen Industry / More bullshit advice from ST
« on: October 22, 2006, 10:16:36 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
I've looked around a bit to see if Amnesty International has been involved with the complaints surrounding programs.  Perhaps I've not looked enough, but I'm coming up with nothing in the way of AI's policies regarding child detainment and torture, although I know they would be enraged.  This seems like an American disease, something that afflicts the wealthy parents who are "important in the community with an image to maintain", and troubled kids are an embarassment.  The Important parents don't have the time to spend working with the kids, and those program websites that promise to return your juvenile "half-baked" pizza fresh and hot after some hellish re-cooking (thanks, TB documentary), make parents desperate to believe it.  As PSY points out, the results are quite often a broken, paranoid kid who can't form relationships due to a lack of ability to trust others.  I know it does nothing to repair the family "rifts", but I'm of the opinion that a lawsuit allows the former patient to make a statement to the parent who demanded the program:  Your program failed, it did not make me love and respect you, I suffered and now there is no facility saying I'm manipulating you.  One hope, I guess, is the parent would realize that if their own child would file suit against them, it would convince them they were wrong to snatch their teenager and lock them in a facility that basically babysat and humiliated, physically tortured and overmedicated what should have been their main priority in this world, their kids.

Given the choice between getting out of program early or staying til the end (but getting to sue for it) which one do you think I would have picked.

Suing the parents for revenge is petty and does nothing to help the kids who are still in program.  Money cannot heal the wounds these programs inflict.

What statement do you really think it would make(if in the unlikely event such a suit were sucessful)?  The first thing posted on ST would be "Ungrateful Child Sues Parent for Trying to Help".  Programs would simply lock down communication between parent and child even further.

From my perspective, the appropriate response is to make sure it never happens to anybody again by choosing a better target to sue.  Yes programs crawl back out of the woodwork like cockroaches, but with all the student's testimony, i think it makes a much louder noise (and is more likely to affect parents in a positive manner).

I'm not necessarily saying "don't sue the parent."  If a parent truly knows what is going on, and does nothing, they should be left as miserable as possable.  However, as i said, revenge heals nothing.  Helping others just might.

The Troubled Teen Industry / left and right, and up, and down
« on: October 22, 2006, 09:52:28 PM »
Everybody thinks i couldn't happen.  It's kind of funny becuase it IS happening.

Nobody believed what was happening to the Jews in WWII becuase it was just too horrible to believe somebody would do that.  There were photos, and survivors pleading for international aid.  The US Dept. of State KNEW what was happening and did nothing.  When the red cross came to inspect a "concentration camp" they were shown Tereisenstadt. An elaborate hoax put on to make them look good.  You wonder if Gitmo is the same type of thing considering it's the only "official" prison (and nobody of importance was ever put there).

People said that mass murder on such a scale could never happen in secret.  And yet it DID.  The world has got to wake the fuck up and realize that there are a lot of fucked up people out there.  Sociologist Stanley Milgram showed that, when given unethical orders by superiors, most complied.  Combine this with the tendency of people doing these types of things to convince themselves that they are doing "the right thing", and you end up with a lot of dead or permanantly scarred people.

To be fair, I have no idea what goes on in the secret CIA prisons in eastern europe, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.  But if it's all "kosher" than why not let things be out in the open?  Clearly the question is hypothetical since Joe CIA Interrogator knows he can do whatever he wants.  Nobody knows what is going on in those places (which is exactly how the Germans kept it until the Russians started turning up concentration camps.)  Since there is no force that can remotely compare with US might, we will probably never know what happened / is happening to those people.

We have the same situation with programs and history is repeating itself as it always predictably does. Skeptical parents and the public at large believe somehow that everybody is inherantly good.

As always, if it's not good TV, the media, liberal, conservative, or whatever, will not give a shit.  Jon Benet Ramsey got weeks of airtime since it made good TV.  Nobody cares about some fucked up druggies who would probably be dead-or-in-jail.  It's the perception that matters to the media, not the truth.  It's much easier to harp on something inane than it is to actually debate the rights and wrongs of things or attempt to change people's views.  With the attention span of the average boob in front of the TV, how hard do you think it would be to explain exactly how programs work, to explain to people how this could happen.

Stop bitching about politics. Both sides of the political spectrum are fucked up and opportunistic.  They just have different masters.  The ones in power are usually worse becuase (guess what?) power corrupts.  It happens with every party in every system.  I have no idea why people feel the need to politically define themselves with only two directions to pick.  Fuck the left AND the right.  Think for yourself.

The Troubled Teen Industry / More bullshit advice from ST
« on: October 22, 2006, 05:08:20 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
If Bush had only gone to ST during the Gitmo Bay scandal..."They are not being abused, the prisoners are lying and manipulating the public.  We are attempting to take the power back from them, give them new skills, and return them home as productive citizens.  That's tough love, America,"

The parralells are striking.

How many unknown prisons do the CIA have?
How many programs stay under the radar?

Both use dodgy third world countries to dodge the law.
Both seem to find a way around inspection.
Both deny basic human rights.
Both claim their prisoners deserve it.
Both create powerful propoganda.

Both prisoners and students are there under dodgy pretences.
Both prisoners and students are denied fair representation.
Both prisoners and students are denied unfiltered outside contact.
Both prisoners and students undergo sleep deprivation.
Both prisoners and students are regularly humiliated.

The difference?  The public gives a fuck about the people in Gitmo.

The Troubled Teen Industry / specific
« on: October 21, 2006, 08:28:51 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Also, the other parent could sue US for some of your suggestions.

Hence the reason i was not very explicit about what i may or may not have implied.

I'm not suggesting at all anything illegal (i believe i was explicit in that several posts ago).  I mean, if somebody was hurting / had hurt / had killed my daughter... well i just might sue the dickens out of em  8) .  I hope i'm being crystal clear here.

Don't snap.  Do it legally.  But go for the throat now.

Open Free for All / toilet paper printing
« on: October 21, 2006, 08:14:28 PM »
Well the Gimp ( has size presets for toilet paper.  It's basically a Photoshop clone.  You could create your "artwork" in there.  I belive the preset is there becuase somebody wanted to print windows logos on toilet paper. will print anything you want on toilet paper.

The Troubled Teen Industry / So what DOES work?
« on: October 21, 2006, 07:55:54 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
ZA, if it was me, I'd go nuclear and fucking dare them to do it, with a strong hint that anything they do to her will be used against them.

Maybe it's best that it's not me.

Or me.  I second his opinion.  Get your girl out of there by any means necessary.  Staying in that place is far more damaging to her than any physical punishment they could possably hand out.  She will be grateful to you in the long run (and my guess is she is not going to be very friendly with whoever kept her there).

If they break the law and hurt her... well i'll leave it to the imagination.  If she was my daughter - it's probably best not say what i would do to them.


I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent.

You'd be wrong either way. I'm simply a very interested outsider, with zero personal stake in any of this. Apart from the people I've met through Fornits, none of my friends or acquaintances are in any way involved.

Do people really need a personal stake to say that child abuse is wrong?

No you don't really need a personal stake to undertand that child abuse is wrong (although it does help to understand things).  I said that becuase you seemed to blame the parents more than the program (by supporting lawsuits against the parents).  Many students think their parents knew what was going on when many had no idea (at least mine didn't, and i hated them until i discovered this.  I actually had nightmares in program where my mother was trying to kill me.)

All i'm saying is that lawsuits against the parents would be tear families even further apart, when suing the facility might bring truth out into the open, and help parents realize their kids were not lying after all.

One of biggest pains in the ass of being in program is the frustration of trying to tell the truth to your parents, but never being believed because of a slander campaign perpetrated by the program propogandists.  Parents often trust the program a little too much, thinking, "they must know what they're doing."  It is for this reason i do not blame the parents, most of them are mind-fucked, not sadists.

The Troubled Teen Industry / Middle ground
« on: October 21, 2006, 04:06:14 PM »
There are also options of taking down programs that are neither legal, nor illegal.  For example, smuggling in tape recorders for some trusted students to make creative use of.  Other types of surveilance techniques can also work.  When all the information is collected, send it to the press anonymously (although this is not necessary considering they do not have to release their sources).

The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Suing the parents?!?!
« on: October 21, 2006, 04:01:40 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
For a lot of Fornits posters, it's not just about the money, the huge chunk ripped out of their lives, or the lasting emotional damage. It's about revenge, and there isn't much better revenge you can legally get than bankrupting your parents and redirecting their calls to your lawyer. The parents should just feel lucky they're taking it legally. Find a few posts by "SCL Survivor" (a Guest, who will no longer even talk to his parents or allow them to see his children) and some others. I explain why below.

My point is not the motive, rather that it is the wrong target.  Maybe some people are out there for revenge, but they should at least direct their hatred into something productive, that might bring down a program and help other kids.  

Here, you are wrong in many cases. Go take a look through the "More bullshit advice from ST" thread if you don't believe me. There are a lot of parents who have no clue, but there are a lot of parents who DO know what's going on and actively APPROVE of it, and then there are those who REFUSE to know what's going on or what's actually being done to their children. This last might be the largest group.

I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent.  If parents know about what is going on, how do you prove it?  The easiest legal target would be the program, rather than the parents.  How many ex-students have the resources to pull off such a thing anyway?  If students reconcile with their (probably loaded) parents, there is a good chance legal action would be sucessful against the program.  Sure, there are some parents who just view program as a way to dispose of unwanted kids, and I sympathize with the desire to inflict revenge on them, but in my opinion it is far less productive than legal action directly against the program.

I would wager that there are a lot of students who believe that their parents knew what was going on in program, but for whom it was not the case.  Had my parents and I not reconciled, and I had not heard the lies they were told, i would probably still hate them to this day.  Most student i knew of never talked to their parents again.

As an aside, I don't personally care how this shit is ended; youthful revenge is a great motivator, but most of the lawsuits against WWASPS are done by parents, and the HLA takeout is fueled by former staff.

think on why?

Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?

To clarify, i am not endorsing going columbine on the place, rather i am saying that if they refuse to release the child, and you have legal custody, you should call the cops.  I'm not endorsing (notice italics) violent action to take down programs (heaven forbid such a thing should happen).  When a legal path of action is possable, it should always be the first choice of action.

The Troubled Teen Industry / Suing the parents?!?!
« on: October 21, 2006, 02:32:07 PM »
And what exactly would suing your parents accomplish, save to widen the family rift that the program seeks to encourage?  Do you really think that would discourage parents from sending their kids to program?  You would have to prove parents knew of the abusive conditions (which is hard considering the program propoganda and lack of communication).  Most parents have no idea what is going on at these programs, and if they did would be very very pissed.

As a parent with a child in an abusive facility

     What is stopping you from going to the program unannounced, and demanding they release you child.  If they refuse, come back with the cops and/or goons with guns.  If there is some parental dispute as to the effectiveness of the program i suggest you work on convincing your (possably ex) partner of the dangers of these programs.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / yes. her
« on: October 20, 2006, 11:56:45 PM »
yes, her.  I was at Benchmark.  Another NATSAP school.  She brought all her bag of tricks from CEDU.  I have not been able to find anybody who went to Hilltop during that period.  I'm interested in what she was like before she started her own program.  She rarely showed her face at Benchmark, managing things from behind the scenes and at staff meetings.  I'd like to know what made her into what she is now.

The Troubled Teen Industry / So what DOES work?
« on: October 20, 2006, 11:30:44 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I think the bigger question is why a kid will run from a place repeatedly in the first place.

It is often "that awful that the kids can't stand being there".  In my experience, kids do not have to lie about their experiences in program, though many believe what they say to be lies becuase things sounds so bad.  If the parents or authorities were doing their jobs, giving people the benifit or the doubt, and investigating the situation, things might turn out differently.  You would think more people would be suspicious considering the "coincidental" likenesses of the stories from kids all over the country.

Reading the CEDU forum on fornits is like reading from my memory, and the same shit is happening over and over and over again.  I wish more parents did research on the internet.  The would find the same stories their kids try to tell them (labeled as manipulative) repeated almost verbatim again and again.  Sure some kids lie, but in my experience, most of them did not becuase the truth was bad enough.

I can understand a parent's scepticism though.  Parents, who have entrusted their children to an institution, are more likely to believe the official program story.  Keep in mind, many of them are also under a financial burden, having already paid in advance for the program.  They often view their kids as "throwing their education away" when they get into trouble in program.

It has been my experience that debates are won based on who has the most persuasive arguments, the most experience, and the most time to argue.  The program wins this competition every single time by restricting and/or manipulating communication between child and parent.  When all you hear is one side of the story, it becomes the truth to most people.  Just look at political polarization if you need a good example.  Critical thinking skills are not valued anymore as, more and more, people look to others for answers they could (and probably should) find themselves.

Parents have no comprhension whatsoever of what goes on.  It's one of those things you have to experience to truly know what it is like.  There is no book or documentary that can really do it justice.  There is no easy way to illustrate what it is like to have your mind cracked open and fucked with like a toy.  In this way, it is not easy to describe exactly what made things hell.

Some programs physically beat you down, other programs break your mind, break your will, and remake you as a mindless pawn.  When you're broken, it's like your watching your life being lived, rather than actually being behind the driver's seat.  You relinquish control.  You become who you must become to survive, and a part of you starves to death in the process.  Physical injuries heal but the emotional death inflicted by these programs lasts a lifetime.  I've seen people on this forum who got out of program 20 years ago, and they still are crushed by their experiences.

The worst of them never realize the abuse they underwent and as a result become supporters of the program, most likely sending their kids off at the slightest sign of independant thought.  The victim becomes the victimizer, all the while living in a dream world where severity of punishment indicates love, where compassion is naive, where mercy is harmful.  They start to believe that they know what other people think, and can "call you on your shit" when most of the time they have no idea what they are talking about.

Studies have shown that experienced cops, when asked to judge whether somebody was lying or not, more often than not, were wrong.  When their results were compared to a group of randomly chosen people, it was discovered that the cops scored worse.  Often they scored so badly that they would have been better of randomly guessing.  The only difference is that the cops were more certain in their judgements.

This type of fanatical self-confidence Is what the staff are in these programs are infected with.  They go off on power trips, fueled by their belief that their experiences somehow gave them supernatural insight into the minds of others.  Often, this confidence aids in convincing kids that who they are is a lie.  Eventually you believe it (almost all do for at least a time, though few would admit the shame of it), though endless the exercises, workshops, rap sessions etc.  You are mentally raped in program and it carries a greater degree of shame.  At least if you are raped you know you couldn't have prevented it.  When they break you, at some point in time you think "i wasn't strong enough to resist."

I believe many program councelors and staff believe they are doing the right thing.  I believe this to be for two reasons:
   - how could one live if one did not believe this?
   - they have gone through the same things?
Even then, it is doubtful many of them could keep themselves in this state of self denial for long.  Staff in programs often burn out, after which they either leave, relapse, or both.

There are a few (thankfully rare) completely sociopathic staff members who know exactly what they are doing, and either derive enjoyment from it, or have no problems doing whatever it takes to put money in the bank.

Councelors in my program often went through the workshops (profeets et. al. for CEDU people) with the kids.  They underwent the same Lifespring-esque programming we did.  They ended up believing the shit they said, and it made it all the more convincing when they said it with conviction.  When you are immersed in such an enviornment, it is futile to try to be normal or "work the program."  If they suspected you were not "honest" enough about how you felt, even if you were being completely honest, they would apply more pressure until your head popped open and they could insert whatever truth they wanted you to believe.

Let me reiterate, the damage done by these programs is permanant.  Things get blocked out, but they never go away, and when you ignore the past it pesters and pokes at you until you deal with it.  My mother used to tell me to "get over it, you're out of there now, move on."  At the same time, i never realized why now i am different.  I never put two and two together (until just recently, when reading my memories online) to realize how much i had changed since i went into program:

i don't trust anybody more than superficially
it is worse with people i know
i rarely sleep
when i do i don't sleep well
i don't like to be around people anymore
i find comfort in isolation
i'm more paranoid than ever

I'm hoping somehow, by writing this, that maybe it will convince some parent not to send their kid away.  I'm hoping maybe it will help somebody to remember, to get pissed off, to heal.  I don't know whether it's possable to heal but i do know it is possable to shut down these programs.  I know that will make me feel better, to know it will not happen to others.  All it takes is a loud enough scream.

The Troubled Teen Industry / Authority figures and paranoia
« on: October 20, 2006, 09:15:00 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Nothing is more harmful to the development of young adults than the shitty examples of their authority figures.

Thanks to my experiences in program I now have an innate paranoia of authority figures.  I have no criminal record or any reason to be worried, but I still get nervous around police.  I never used to be that way.  I see them as goons on a power trip who would rather toy with me for kicks than "serve and protect."  I was never this way before i went into program.  I don't trust authority anymore.  I'm more cynical than ever.  I have no faith whatsoever in government or the law.  Maybe i shouldn't have any faith in them.  After all, what has the law done to help take down these programs.

What has the government done?  Have you seen the amount of money contributed by Ken Kay to the republican party?  You don't think this influences decision making (especially locally) even a little?  In this country we have legalized corruption in the form of campaign contributions.  I do not think the framers of the constitution had K street in mind when they envisioned the right to petition our government.  "Petition" in my mind, does not invoke visions of dollar signs.  The corporation killed democracy.

The way i see it, if you can't trust authority, then that authority is not legitimate, and you have to find your own justice. Derive from that what you will.

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