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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: wtaylorg on January 21, 2005, 06:34:00 PM

Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: wtaylorg on January 21, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
I came into the Cleveland Seed in Oct of '78. I had done a little pot, but mostly I committed juvenile pranks like breaking into my girlfriends house, that kind of stuff. I had a choice of the Seed or Youth Commision. I choose the Seed, to my chagrin, today.
I turned 15 my second day there and the staff brought me a cake when my oldcomer came to pick me up that night. They didn't tell me it was from my Mom. Go Figure!

The Seed closed after I was there maybe 1 month. They came to me and said they wanted to take me to Ft Lauderdale to finish my program. They had spoken to my Mom and said that she wanted to take me out of the program. But, they wanted me to be apart of things and that they had my best interest at heart.

I was down there for another 2 mos and my Mom was calling like hell to have me graduated so I could come home. I remember Lybbi telling me my Mom was a bitch and she didn't really care about me.
To make a long story short I was graduated around Christmas of '78 and went home. By then I belived that my family were "assholes" as I was told by the staff. I came home shunned old friends, wore my Seed badge and shirt and waited until I could move back to Fl at 18.

I moved to the Ft Lauderdale Seed  from 1982-1985. During that time I saw the "cult" go from what I remembered being over a couple hundred members to about forty. Like another poster Cleveland, who I know, but will not say his name at this point, I lived with Bob W. and saw alot of the inner workings, but was never in the inner circle. I witnessed Art yelling at his wife shelly and calling her names that to this day I've never heard a man ever use that language in talking to his wife.(unbelievable)

I used to think at times what happened to Hank? or ?. Staff who had been there when I was on my program, but when I would ask Bob W., He'd look at me like don't ask that.

Well, I had thought of old Art the asshole the other day, and just by chance entered in his name in Google. What a great thing this forum is for us former Seedlings. When I saw John Perloff's picture, I had to laugh. I guess the assholes are now torturing dogs.I will have to send my brother the link, he went to school with him.

Anyways, I just wish that when my Mom had wanted to send me to a Columbus, Oh drug rehab after 30 days at the Seed, I would have agreed. If only life gave you do overs.

Wtaylorg
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-21 15:34:00, wtaylorg wrote:

"I lived with Bob W. and saw alot of the inner workings, but was never in the inner circle. I witnessed Art yelling at his wife shelly and calling her names that to this day I've never heard a man ever use that language in talking to his wife.(unbelievable)
<
Wtaylorg"


Wow, what a story, Wtaylorg . . .i was there during 79 . . .why did he yell at her? What other inner working factual stories do you remember?
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on January 22, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Good story Dude!!!
Im glad you got close to the inner circle to see Art Barker be himself. I was in the Florida seed from July 1st, 1974 to August17, 1975 when I graduated and we moved to Cleveland. I spent alot of time at the Cleveland seed until I went in the military in feb 77. I never talked to Art but I was around him at times when he was on such a pedastal, he was so lofty, such an ego-maniac. I can just imagine him suspecting his young wife of sleeping around. He-he-he couldnt happen to a nicer guy.

The difficult thing about writing this is that I fell for his charade. Time after time in the summer of 74 he would walk into the middle of the group with Libby and shelly and countless good lookin babes following him around, their eyes sparkled, their faces smiled. Art would tell us about taking over the world and damn if I didnt believe him. He got me but I was young and vulnerable. Oh WELL. Those days are long gone.

Peace and Love to all seedlings,
Jimmy
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: wtaylorg on January 24, 2005, 09:24:00 AM
Because I lived with a senior staff member Bob W., at that time the only senior guys staff member, I witnessed alot of crazy shit. Once, there was a situation involving Ray K. If anyone remembers the Kienzle bros? Anyways He and Laura, a former chicks staff member were having a relationship that was not condoned by Art or the Seed. If anyone remembers this story please add  some other thoughts. I remember this relationship went on for several months behind everyone's back.

Eventually, thay were caught and Laura was asked to either admit to her lie and, I'm not real clear on what they wanted her to do, either start on the front row again or just admit to the group her backstabbing, because that was how they(art and staff viewed this).
All I know is we never saw Laura again. Ray, came into the group for a few weeks and just sat and was never called on.
Eventually, he left one day after meeting with Lybbi and never came back.
Sometime passed and they were rumors that he was out to "get" the Seed. One night Bob W. received a call at his house, where about 4 of us lived,  that Ray K. Had painted graffitti all over bridges and trees and stuff in and around Art's very nice neighborhood that was near the intercoastal.
We had to get buckets, kerosine and brushes and scrub all this stuff off of walls and trees and other stuff near Art's house that Ray had spray painted messages about Art and the Seed. This stuff was pretty sick stuff about Art, like how he brainwashed and stuff. It was true though.

I remember being out there at 4:00 am, scrubbing palm trees with kerosine running down and burning my arms,  thinking what in the fuck am I doing this for. It wasn't long after that I started to really think about what I was doing down there and why? My time as a worker bee, doing that kind of stuff was getting pretty old by then. This was around '84-'85.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on January 24, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
...good to hear from you, please post more. Let's complare notes on the Seed, and post-Seed days...
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: GregFL on January 24, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
Great story!!
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 04:27:00 AM
Hi,
I just found this.  20 years later! Can you tell me where you saw pics?  O.k. I followed the seed to Florida too but I missed you with the years there.  I must have been in Ohio when you were though.  I was too close like you to them............write me
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 04:36:00 AM
Are you talking about Laura the ex-airline stewerdass?  I will never be able to keep up with the questions I have posted today and the answers I have just found this site.  What did happen to Hank.  He dissapeared right before me.  I think they were downsizing!
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 19, 2005, 08:54:00 AM
Are your initials MGG? I had a crush on you about 20 yrs ago if it is. You were a sweet kid. If those were not your initials ,I'm sure I know you... :roll:
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 20, 2005, 02:45:00 AM
adorable little green face you put there:)  That would be me..........mgg, and who are you?  I didn't know anyone ever had a crush on me................
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on May 20, 2005, 08:00:00 AM
MGG send me a private message. See over on the left. If you put in Private Messages and send it to "Ft. Lauderdale" that would be me. Or you could pick a user name & I'll send you one and give you my email address. I worked with you at Safecard along with CD TM LMc TK & DM.
I hope to talk to you.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 20, 2005, 08:48:00 AM
Aww, love on the SDF board....


How sweet!


 :grin:


gregfl
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on May 20, 2005, 03:35:00 PM
Greg don't be jealous - maybe she likes surfers- like yourself (old surfers)  ::bigsmilebounce::  [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-05-20 12:37 ]
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 20, 2005, 06:53:00 PM
MGG you still have not told the complete story as to why you were booted from the sick group.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: MG on May 22, 2005, 12:33:00 AM
Hi I'm sorry this took so long but I wrote my explanation, if that is possible, the other night and apparantly it was somehow lost.  
They threw me out with NO explanation except, "We know what you are up to".  I had been living with Nona Zambone and Patty Healy and a bunch of other girls and we had all become pretty close.  Patty was in Real Estate and I used to ride along with her on listings.  She gave me her vintage red corvet on a payment basis, as she was going to college and needed the money.  I had been working at Safecard Services with a lot of other "seedlings".  I was promoted there several times(3)I was pretty good with the computer system there.  The IBM text editor, a true dinnasor! The Seed heard about the car and whatever their problem was they yelled at me saying what are you trying to pull and made me give it back to Patty.  I felt really bad about that one becasue I had not an ill intention in my bone.  She was selling it and I wanted to buy it.  So then they also said becasue of cliquing up or whatever that I had to also leave the apartment and move to a different apartment where I lived with Laura Perchapski, and LeAnn. I think Terry Meyers lived there becasue she was always there!  Then the seed forced me to take my car off the road.  A Ford Grand Torino, and ride to work with Terry and LeAnn.  The two of them would laugh and giggle and sit nearly on top of each other the whole way to work every day really never speaking to me like I was shit.  When I did talk it would be like....oh..and then back to their own world.  A newcomer went back to work and that meant working at safecard also.  She rode with us and they treated her pretty much the same.  I don't remember the name of the girl but I think Donna perhaps?  She was only at the Seed a few months.  She was very very quiet, withdrawn and uncomfortable in her own skin it seemed but now so was I.  The two of us would just sit in the back set prety much looking at our shoes miserable.  She didn't want to talk to me either.....so.  LeAnn worked in the Art Department and they asked me to train her on the computer. I tried but after one whole week she could still not even sign on. I don't htink she wanted to do it or she was just screwing with me.  It was very frustrating. Her boss asked why she hadn't learned it and I told him that I didn't know but was trying very hard to teach her but she didn't seem to grasp it. He asked me if I would stay late one day and help with a project on the computer and I called to ask permission at home becasue he would have to drive me home. They said NO. That next day I found out the newcomer ran away. I was called into the back office.  Libby was there.  Art, Cookie, Shelly, and I think someone else.  At the time I believe it was Ginger, Evy, Patty, Nona, and Guys.  Libby started to scream in my face at the top of her lungs, "what the fuck to you think your doing?  We know what you are up to.  Tell the f'ing truth.  We know what you did. What the F are you trying to pull?  Ect., on and on for maybe an hour.  I kept telling her I didn't know what she was talking about.  I was in total shock and I wanted to die.  Couldn't even cry just felt like I was shriveling up inside.  I had NO IDEA what she was talking about.  She told me that I had a couple of days to get rid of my car, pack my bags, quit my job, and get a plane home.  I went back to the condo and nearly cried myself to death in my room alone becasue we used to share rooms but they put me in one by myself till I was gone.  I didn't even sleep and just couldn't stop crying for days and NOONE SAID A FUCKING WORD TO ME!  I got on the plane quietly, and who even took me to the airport is a total blur I was commatosed at that point.  I went back to Ohio and bought a real heap for $50.00 and stayed with my Mom for two days who after attacking my brother came into my room and tried punching me in the face.  I put my shit back in a box and lived in my car in a rest area. Broke, no job, no home.  I was sleeping in the car nearly a week when a girl in Ohio from the seed let me stay on her couch.  I got work and my own apartment and lived happily fringin after...lol  What did they think I was doing?  Losing my virginity to LeAnn's boss, aiding a seed escape, trying to get LeAnn's job.  I have no clue but I wasn't capable of any of those.  I was highly loyal and the only seed person I ever disliked was LeAnn why would I want to be in an apartment with her, ride to work and home with her, and then be in the same damn department with her!  The guy was old to me then and I was a virgin.  Why would I help someone leave the place I had no plan of EVER LEAVING.  She had become invisible to me anyway like she wanted.  Let's all pretend we don't exist while Terry and LeAnn kiss each other to death and treat us like shit!!  Stuck up Biatches they were to us.  Art just stood there all cold and glazed  glaring at me hatefully.  I was devastated and heartbroken..............THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!Maybe they wanted to downsize only to the longest of slaves and tried to make me miserable enough to leave and that didn't work so they just threw me out.  That's the non-explanation---explanation I have.  I would love to know why they threw me away like garbage without one when I loved them all so much.  Amazing.....it still hurts, and you know I gave seven years of my life to the place.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: MG on May 22, 2005, 12:57:00 AM
Does anyone remember my brother.  He ran away from the seed in Ohio.  I had him put in really because the staff asked a lot of questions and I told them he smoked pot.  I think he smoked one joint with me and a friend and I put him up to it.  They got more money out of my mother.  My mother confided in a Realtor friend at work because I had run away and she told her of the seed.  Their family was very involved with the seed and I think it was a matter of having to do it that lead her to do it.  How could you not get help for your kids?  When my brother split she let him stay out.  I was paid up for. To this day he hates the seed and always acted like something terrible was done to him.  He hated having a freak for a sister. SEEDLING....SEED SUCKS........I LOVE YOU.....MOONIE  We were very, very close and never really have been again like we were.
If anyone wants to mail me you can do that at
[email protected] I am happy to have found this and grateful for it.  The afformation this has brought me these past few days is uncharted.  I almost never speak of it but over the years have told a few that my mother commited me to a place that brainwashed me when I was fourteen.  I talk about my gymnastics scholarship I got down there when I talk of living in florida and don't say out of shame I followed them there like a ZOMBIE.  It's great to know I'm not alone.  I wanted sometimes to try to look people up but didn't know where there heads would be at and I am after all an outcast.
Thank you for having this site....whoever did it!
Oh, and Love,
Mg
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: GregFL on May 22, 2005, 01:06:00 AM
:nworthy:
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Antigen on May 22, 2005, 01:46:00 AM
Wow! Ya' know, I'm more convinced than ever now that you later day Seedlings might find a lot of common ground w/ the Whitmore ppl. And it looks like some of the more recent victims are about to hold the king and queen of that little fiefdom to account legally. Might be fun to watch.  :lol:

so long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
--stephen Hawking, English scientist



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: MG on May 22, 2005, 03:53:00 AM
Please translate that for me...I am too new here.  Where, or what is Whittmore and ????????
E-mail if I'm too not there to get code please?  Somewhere I wrote also about Art and the Playboy Club.  Tell me he didn't alway's say that he worked at the Playboy Club in New York and that he had his boat docked there and would come in to work and that that is where he met Shelly.  That is the Ohio story I remember.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on May 22, 2005, 07:24:00 AM
It was the Playboy Club in Miami & thats where his boat was docked.  My father was a fireman for years right next to that Playboy club.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: cleveland on May 22, 2005, 02:30:00 PM
Wow, MG, I remember this vaguely. As always, everything happened in secret. I remember the Safecard group, because they all seemed so tight. Leeann and Terry - especially  prominent people in my mind. And of course, Patty H., who told me not to go to art school because 'art is for girls.'

 It seemed that maybe you didn't get called on as much in the group, is this true?

Anyway, when you 'left,' I just remember - what happened to her? When a guy disappeared, we might never speak about him again. But the girls - I knew nothing about what was happening there. Remember the joke about the 'chicks' doing nothing but cooking, cleaning and sewing?' Meanwhile the guys were sneaking peaks at porn when the newcomers weren't around!

Anyway, that is so sad. Who knew what they thought you had done? And why? Did someone plant a rumor, or was it jealousy or what? All this in the name of love. I feel for you on this. At least I left on my own, which was hard enough at the time.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Antigen on May 22, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Sorry for being cryptic, MG. I'm talking about a group (sometimes it's a school, other times it's a treatment center... depending on legal advice of the day, it seems). It's called Whitmore Academy and is operated by Cheryl and Mark Sudweeks.

Here's the forum:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=35&3860 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=35&3860)

And here's the initial topic on them:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rum=35&673 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4457&forum=35&673)

When I read your story, it just reminded me of someone who very occasionally posts as mom2three
Here are those posts: http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?term= ... mit=Search (http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?term=&addterms=any&forum=all&search_username=mom2three&sortby=p.post_time&searchboth=both&submit=Search)

Now that I look over that whole mess, it probably is too cryptic and confusing for anyone to just jump in and get it. But you might want to drop a line to mom2three.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism--how passionately I hate them!
--Albert Einstein

Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: MG on May 22, 2005, 06:48:00 PM
Hi,
I will check out all those links, and thank you.  I don't even know who those people are.  I was unaware even of Straight, which apparantely started before I left the seed in 81'.  The answer Wally's question about me being called on.  Sometimes I got called on a lot and other times it felt like I was in the doghouse........which would make you go look in the mirror a lot, in your own eyes, and chew yourself out, and wonder what the fuck was wrong with you?????  Anyone else?  The whole "your eyes are the mirror to your soul".  I remember getting one inch from the mirror and looking in there like I would see something amazing floating by that would give me the answer to it.  all.......... :rofl: Other times working so hard full time and then swimming like a fish and playing tennis, running with everyone, then cleaning for them on the weekend too.  I was exausted and could barely keep my eyes open sitting there not even having had dinner yet.
Mary
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: MG on May 22, 2005, 06:52:00 PM
The sewing joke.....that is really not funny!  I resemble that comment.  We were really poor growing up and I sewed most all my own clothing and I even took the blue ribbon in a fair against old ladies for a reversable suit I made.  I made Art a totally hand embroidered and quilted pillow, which is a lot lot lot of work!  Resented that pillow all these years...LOL  Now I say if you tell anyone I can sew I will have to kill you.  Those jokes if they were made were sure not made to our faces!  As dedicated as I was I don't think anyone would have gotten a pillow out of me had I heard it!
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: cleveland on May 23, 2005, 09:32:00 AM
That whole sewing joke makes me think of the little bit of competition betweed the 'guys' and the 'chicks.' I remember when I came in the Seed I thought it was really weird that the guys and girls sat on separate sides of the room. It seemed even weirder when I was an oldcomer and my only contact with the girls was playing football on the beach. We might say, 'good catch Mary!' or whatever but that was it. Sat on separate towels in separate sections.

I remember pretty intense raps when I was a newcomer about 'games' - basically, sex. It was pretty confrontational. It brought out a lot of shame for me, at 19 I had a very romantic view on relationships, but actually had been in a few that felt hurtful. I remember one staff member, Nona, who seemed to imply that she had been a hooker - 'there was nothing - NOTHING I wouldn't do to get high' I remember her saying and I'm thinking, whoa. That seemed pretty crazy, and she's crying and we're all crying and I'm basically feeling pretty bad about being male.

But later, it seemed that the guys and girls competed for Art's attention. Guys did 'guy' stuff, helped Art with his boat, dug ditches for the ball field, like that. Girls sewed stuff, painted, did crafts. The guys kind of made fun of that, but also, we were trying to feel better about being separate from the girls.

I remember John P. and Cindy dating. I remember how strange that was. They were the first I ever remember, and there were no Public Displays of Affection or anything like that. I worked with Randy who was married to Terry, but they were a long-established couple and Randy was an 'honorary' Seed kid, which meant the rules were different.

I remember being jealous of the Safecard crew, where guys and girls worked together. This was rare. It seemed like there were some friendships that came out of this. But for me, I lived and worked with guys exclusively.

I guess the end result of this was, on the plus side, we (guys) felt like we were good guys, treating women as equals, not objects. On the minus side, we had no relationships with women as friends, partners or in love.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on October 16, 2005, 04:24:00 PM
I am not sure girls were so different. I was a virgin when I went in and at some point during the program I found the libiotic energy to deflower myself.

Did you feel mastrabating was bad?  Did the  Seed contribute to that?  Was it something you confessed in guys rap.  Guys rap, it was so mysterious
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: cleveland on October 16, 2005, 06:47:00 PM
We were told to get our heads out of the gutter, so the whole thing was confusing to me.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on October 16, 2005, 08:00:00 PM
Yeah, that's sort of what we, chicks were told too.  I just wondered if there was more of a boys will be boys sort of acceptance for guys or if maybe you were obliged to really talk about controling your sexual feelings(because they exspected boys libidos to be more controlled.)

In some other post, I read something about the ways that cults gain power by creating and enviroment in which everyone feels compelled to confesses compulsively but hides some deeper secrets so the members always feel a tinge of shame. Trading deeper secrets for lesser ones.

Sexuality seems to be one of those things.  As much as we may tryed to "get out minds out of the gutter," we had crushes, fantasies, and even if very occassionally, mastrubated but we never talked about any of that.

About a year after I graduated I began a relationship with another graduate.  When we had been together a good while( long enough to trust me I guess) he told me that when he was an old comer he used to occassional take off between school and heading to the seed just long enough to sleep with his old girlfriend.  He called those times vacations.  The first time he did it he said he was sweating bullets but by the time  he got out that night without anyone sensing what he had done he said he knew they were full of shit.

I never figured that out. I used to wonder for brief moments before I quickly got my "mind out of the gutter," how relationships between straight people started- how did anyone communicate interest without flirting.  Then I'd quickly tell myself I was still too fucked up to understand how healthy relationships began.  I also remember being sort of confused when Art would tell the story of how he met Shelly.  There seemed to have been a lot of game playing involved. How could that be, when I was told by staff and other seedlings that Art and Shelly were a template for the perfect relationship?
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: cleveland on October 17, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
That post captures my experience too. As a newcomer, we were told to tell at least one person everything. Since I was terrified of leaving out even one step, and losing out on the 'gift of awareness' that I was promised, I put my hand up in group to confess my deepest sexual secret to a staff member in the back room. I was ashamed. I remember, he sort of looked at me coldly and told me to get my head out of the gutter. I did not feel any sort of relief. Later, as an oldcomer, one of the guy staff would joke and tell us that sometimes you just had to take care of business. So, I did, but not very often because of the mixed messages. There was a time, after I had been around for about five years, that the guys in our apartment started watching porn. We had a former staff member in our house, so it seemed OK - until staff told us to knock it off. Also, I had developed passionate feelings for someone in the group, and years into being an oldcomer, finally worked up the courage to talk to staff about asking her out. I was discouraged from that pretty strongly. I think that was one of the final straws for me leaving, because I felt emasculated.

So, I was never clear on what was right or wrong sexually and in relationships. I was led to believe that this was reserved for those who were 'really straight,' and after seven years I knew that I didn't make the cut.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: ChrisL on October 18, 2005, 10:22:00 PM
I remember I used to have "contests" with myself when I was first in the program to see how long I could go, know what I mean... Seinfeld "master of your domain". After I got back home I spanked it nightly and twice on Sunday. At first I actually used to feel guilty about it, but that quickly passed... I just never really thought that they seriously expected not to masterbate, I mean come on a 16 y/o red-blooded american boy? After I had had been an oldtimer for a while I dated another oldtimer and it must have been close to a year before we went "all the way" Geeze-louise if I new then what I know now... what a wasteful conservation of youthful exerburance!!
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Antigen on October 18, 2005, 10:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-16 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

 The first time he did it he said he was sweating bullets but by the time he got out that night without anyone sensing what he had done he said he knew they were full of shit.


Interesting! When I was very young and foolish, I did something very similar to that in order to regain some control from an abusive lover. It worked very well, too.

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: marshall on October 19, 2005, 12:42:00 AM
I did get the distinct sense that we were not supposed to masturbate at all. No one ever said this explicitly. Instead, I frequently heard staff and oldtimers speak negatively and harshly about "fantasizing about chicks" or "getting into your head about chicks". I suppose it's technically possible to masturbate without fantasizing but I never had much luck with that. I recall one guy even feeling guilty about having a wet dream and he asked a staff member what he should do. "Enjoy it." was the reply. The reason given was that you have no control over such things. But purposeful, conscious masturbation was a different matter. Every guy I talked to got the same impression as I...it was a no no.

I went 'without' for my first couple of months at the Seed and then decided to heck with it. This resulted in feelings of guilt and I'd never experienced even the slightest guilt feelings about masturbating before the seed. My moral inventories are full of lines berating myself for fantasizing about chicks. It created a war within myself & shame where there was none before.

My guess is this puritanical aspect of the Seed came from Art's (& other staff members) catholic background. Whatever the source, it was a twisted aspect of Seed ideology.
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
Who were the Kienzle brothers?
Title: I was in the Cleveland Seed and went to Florida when it clos
Post by: Anonymous on July 03, 2006, 05:25:00 PM
Who are the "king and queen of the little fiefdom"?