Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Truth Searcher on December 29, 2005, 10:45:00 AM
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I used to lurk around here some time ago. Yes, I was an advocate of "programs". We really thought she had turned the corner in terms of destructive behaviors post program.
She has been home for 6 months, and we are pretty much back to square one.
I have really changed my thinking about the efficacy of these places. It would be very interesting to know the recidivism rate of kids who attend long term residential placements.
So, I'll be lurking once again. Mostly to gain insight into the hearts and minds of troubled kids. Maybe if I can understand her ... I can somehow help her. And then again, maybe she is the only one who can help her ...
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My daughter slipped back to almost square one. The reason , as I found out later, was there were so many options and no restrictions and she wanted to try everything she couldnt when she was away. No one spoke her language, so there was no support from her peers.
But under a year she bounced back, the difference was the program she was in taught her and supplied her with tools (i.e. communication, knowing she could make good as well as bad choices, she had the power to change herself etc.)We were able to sit, make eye contact and talk about how we were feeling and this hepled bring us and the family back together again.
So hang in there and keep trying, the tools the school gave her are still there.
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My personal experience in these programs was that they are fear based. They don?t teach you any real values or create a foundation for your future. Its all about intimidation and money. In the end I was harmed far more than helped. Today, years later, I feel like I need to seek help for the issue I have from my time in a WWASP program.
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Maybe she's had just about all the 'help' she can stand; at least the strong arm variety.
Recidivism rates. Well, now that you mention it, look around these forums. Damned near everyone goes through a time of extreme excess after these programs. Most come around and get their act together, but relatively few ever get over the damage done to family relationships.
Try and entertain the possability that not everything you were trying to fix was actually broken. Maybe she's got some good, if inarticulable, reasons for rejecting your authority and doing things you'd rather she didn't.
Here's a great escape story w/ a happy ending.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=8&3 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13213&forum=8&3)
"...In general, it's just an overall sign in America that there doesn't seem to be as much respect for authority figures, and that's a bad trend. It just strikes me that people can say whatever they want to and get away with it, and that's not good."
--But David Murrell, exec. dir. of the Florida Police Benevolent Association
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Maybe it was simply maturity, and not any "tools" she learned from a program. When I came home after three years, I started doing things that were ten times "worse" than anything I did before. The program was a holding tank for me. Eventually, I got tired of how I was living and straightened up a bit. I mean, I don't do drugs anymore. I still have a very strong sense of self, since the program and my parents tried to take that away from me. The only reason that I have a good relationship with my parents now is that they finally let go, and have accepted me for who I am. You should try that.
On 2005-12-29 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My daughter slipped back to almost square one. The reason , as I found out later, was there were so many options and no restrictions and she wanted to try everything she couldnt when she was away. No one spoke her language, so there was no support from her peers.
But under a year she bounced back, the difference was the program she was in taught her and supplied her with tools (i.e. communication, knowing she could make good as well as bad choices, she had the power to change herself etc.)We were able to sit, make eye contact and talk about how we were feeling and this hepled bring us and the family back together again.
So hang in there and keep trying, the tools the school gave her are still there."
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Anonymous Posted: 2005-12-29 12:00:00 "The only reason that I have a good relationship with my parents now is that they finally let go, and have accepted me for who I am. You should try that."
I am trying. I really am trying to accept her for who she is. And I am trying really hard to let go. She left our home a few days ago ... she's 17. Guess I have to let go. :cry: If she chooses drugs ... not much I can do. If she chooses to self-mutilate ... not much I can do. If she chooses promiscuity and gets herself pregnant, not much I can do. If she thumbs a ride to Vegas, not much I can do. So, you see I really do have to let go. Because there's just not much else I can do.
I just don't know where the proper boundaries are with a 17 year old. I mean should she just be allowed to quit high school? She has only one semester left? Should she be allowed to hang around in her pajamas all day and do nothing but chat on line? Our state laws don't allow me to force her out of the nest ... but the law does allow her to "walk" out of the nest.
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Been exactly there, except for the cutting. I know its hard but you're right, there really is nothing you can do to force her to do what you want her to. In my case my daughter eventually did start to grow out of living a life that nearly drove me insane. That's not to say there weren't some intensely scary times, but what was I going to do? You can physically force change on someone by putting them in a closed environment but they have to enter the real world sometime. Antigen has said here many times that the only way to change someone against their will is to break that will first and that's all too true. Bad move, very bad. Causes much more damage than if the kid were to have to deal with the natural consequences that come with behaviors and decisions.
I wish you luck and patienc in dealing with this. Take hope in the fact that most kids make it through adolescence w/o benefit of a program and in all likelyhood your will too.
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re: truth searcher. First of all i disagree with the last poster in that sometimes I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree, then if done correctly, build it back up so they see a new self and willingness to persue that to make them happy and confident. I will get bashed on this board, but really, it sounds like your concerned, have done what you had to do, and things aren't going exactly right right now. If your really wanting to know what to do, this board, which is a very minute group of hostile people who never got it, is not the place to contimplate or make decisions. You should seek other neutral and knowledgable advise. That being said, reading your post, this is what I think. There is definitely recidicism. Not to blame you, because you do care, but that is again being taken advantage of. You ARE the responsible adult, and you CAN and WILL make the decisions based upon her living in YOUR house! She does not yet realize how much you care for her, what you've had to do, and how hard it is on you right now. Second, you and her have a definite communication gap. You MUST have regular communication sessions,and that is required to live in the house. If she's cutting herself, you'll have to decide if this is an attention thing, or does she need some real psychological help. You talk to her eye-to-eye where she knows you mean business, then do what you have to do, and tell her that you will because you love her. She will respect that regardless of what she might say immediately. Lastly, I can fully understand your confusion and grief, and this site will only add to confusion. I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"= had to work, had to look at wall, had to not talk, had to not look. Sorry, not had to, but was "forced" to. No, everything in life is about choices. It is spelled out from the beginning what the rules are. In a program, or in real life. Now, I'll really get bombed for this. But you know what, when my teen was really headed for big trouble, and I had been through all the legal ramafications that went with it, I talked to many people, did my own investigations, and personally took my child to one I was comfortable with. About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall, loves his family, respects rules, and is very serious about not being around negative influences. I think you have hope to get help for your daughter, but it HAS to begin with you putting your foot down. She WILL participate in your discussions and your decisions, because YOU are the parent. And she can CHOOSE what she wants to do from there. Being 17, if she refuses, she's on her own. Then she'll be back, to go by your recommendations.
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Yeah, take advice from someone whose child has not reentered the real world yet.
I, for one, am not hostile. I just know from experience that the programs do not work, and so do you, Mom.
Maybe this poster can come back and tell us how great the program worked for her child a couple of years after the child reenters the real world.
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yes, I'll come back at you. I've been with my child, recently, in the real world, and is very admirable, respectable, and ready to take it on. What do you do? What do you contribute to society? Bash me all you want, but this is what I see your life is all about. Being on stupid forums like this, somehow trying to find your way. Your up the wrong road, and you will see.
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and now that you've started, what are you doing now? blaming the world for your actions in the past, or leading a productive one. Since you know from experience, where did you go? Were you the rebellious type and still are, and are now sitting on mommas cushy couch bitching on the computer. I think you know what I want you to do, it's just easier and cushier for you to bitch about your "hard time, and abuse". Can you not actually get a life by yourself?
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I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"
A disgusting quote, all too typical of program supporters/employees/parents. It's not enough for you people to lock kids up for years for no reason, other than to mindfuck them into compliance, no that's not enough for you sadistic freaks. You then roll around in the filth you created for your own enjoyment afterwards, just like the pigs you are. You enjoy laughing at kids who were sexually, physically and emotionally abused? That's absolutely repulsive! How can you rationally explain that comment - you can't - you are a horrible, horrible person. Have you no idea how many lives these programs have destroyed? Have you not read the accounts of abuse posted here and at other websites, by former students and staff? Oh, of course you have, you consider it comedic material. :roll: May God have mercy on your retched soul.
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On 2005-12-29 15:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"and now that you've started, what are you doing now? blaming the world for your actions in the past, or leading a productive one. Since you know from experience, where did you go? Were you the rebellious type and still are, and are now sitting on mommas cushy couch bitching on the computer. I think you know what I want you to do, it's just easier and cushier for you to bitch about your "hard time, and abuse". Can you not actually get a life by yourself?
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Uh, last I checked, people are individuals by nature and want to be them... not submit to others and do as some self-declared authority tells them to do.
Everyones rebellious as a teenager, too, yanno..
One thing that really amuses me is "Can you not actually get a life by yourself?" <- Uh, arent you the same person saying a PROGRAM has to do everything for teenagers? :roll:
Which is it? People should be themselves, or should be destroyed, then rebuilt as a program child? You cant have it both ways.Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
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On 2005-12-29 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yes, I'll come back at you. I've been with my child, recently, in the real world, and is very admirable, respectable, and ready to take it on. What do you do? What do you contribute to society? Bash me all you want, but this is what I see your life is all about. Being on stupid forums like this, somehow trying to find your way. Your up the wrong road, and you will see. "
We don't need to bash you, it's very aparent you hate yourself. In fact, I pity you.
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It appears we have a rabid program troll on our hands today. Riddle me this... if the program was so successful and you were so satisfied, why do you spend your time here 'laughing' at the abuse of children? Is that what you would consider success? I sure don't and would never send my child anywhere you would reccomend. I don't know of any parent who would take parenting advice from you. Didn't your daughter end up in a program? Doesn't this mean you are the LAST person we should look at for parental advice?
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On 2005-12-29 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"re: truth searcher. First of all i disagree with the last poster in that sometimes I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree, then if done correctly, build it back up so they see a new self and willingness to persue that to make them happy and confident. I will get bashed on this board, but really, it sounds like your concerned, have done what you had to do, and things aren't going exactly right right now. If your really wanting to know what to do, this board, which is a very minute group of hostile people who never got it, is not the place to contimplate or make decisions. You should seek other neutral and knowledgable advise. That being said, reading your post, this is what I think. There is definitely recidicism. Not to blame you, because you do care, but that is again being taken advantage of. You ARE the responsible adult, and you CAN and WILL make the decisions based upon her living in YOUR house! She does not yet realize how much you care for her, what you've had to do, and how hard it is on you right now. Second, you and her have a definite communication gap. You MUST have regular communication sessions,and that is required to live in the house. If she's cutting herself, you'll have to decide if this is an attention thing, or does she need some real psychological help. You talk to her eye-to-eye where she knows you mean business, then do what you have to do, and tell her that you will because you love her. She will respect that regardless of what she might say immediately. Lastly, I can fully understand your confusion and grief, and this site will only add to confusion. I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"= had to work, had to look at wall, had to not talk, had to not look. Sorry, not had to, but was "forced" to. No, everything in life is about choices. It is spelled out from the beginning what the rules are. In a program, or in real life. Now, I'll really get bombed for this. But you know what, when my teen was really headed for big trouble, and I had been through all the legal ramafications that went with it, I talked to many people, did my own investigations, and personally took my child to one I was comfortable with. About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall, loves his family, respects rules, and is very serious about not being around negative influences. I think you have hope to get help for your daughter, but it HAS to begin with you putting your foot down. She WILL participate in your discussions and your decisions, because YOU are the parent. And she can CHOOSE what she wants to do from there. Being 17, if she refuses, she's on her own. Then she'll be back, to go by your recommendations. "
The only good thing about the parental dominance mentality youre trying to perpetuate is it makes everyone able of handling it leave and not look back, and the few weaklings that NEED someone to dominate and control their lives for them submit.
"Respect" is something a person has to earn. Authority figures who are just given it as part of their damn job, or someone who thinks what theyve done should make a total stranger just automatically treat them like a celebrity or someone who has earned their personal respect, dont get 'respect'.
Im not against treating everyone civilly, until they demonsrate they dont deserve it, or deserve better, btw. Power-drunk assholes get nothing but attitude becuase I love watching them blow up. Nice, friendly people get it in kind.
Trying to break down a child (which is actually breaking them down mentally and emotionally, aka a psychological regression) and them rebuild them as a programchild who just defers to authority and does as told blindly doesnt work, and its very much arguably abusive anyway.
Nowhere else byt a program is it okay to totally wear a child down and then 'build them back up' (last I checked thats brainwashing...) to make them do as you want.
Now, just incase you try the Military angle, theres a reason they do that shit - they have to make sure that people who are going to go out and fight to the death can mentally handle it, and while theyre at it conditioning them to be able to survive in a regressed state is almost a necessity so they dont become shell shocked and get killed. But, thats not breaking down a CHILD, against their will, just to try to make them a little stepford kid. They know whats going on, choose do, can choose out at any time, and its necessary for them to be able to do what they do.
A Navy SEAL kind of has to be able to weather a psychological attack, and most of the men who try out for it dont make it. WTF makes you think that sort of treatment is what we should just force upon children? And just WTF do you think it does to a kid when they snap out of that bullshit? It hardens a man into a killer... you think a KID can just handle it better?
Regardless, the entire tone of your post and the entire objective of everything you would have the reader do is to totally dominate and control the child, and make the child disclose everything. Its BULLSHIT. Its like Im reading a slave contract for a TPE (thats total power exchange) S&M couple. Yeah, submissive people get off on that, (if they're horny...) but everyone else generally doesnt.
Being an overcontrolling bitch is a good way to make them leave when theyre able to. You making cutting out to either be "an attention thing" (how DARE that child try to want me to recognize them as something other than some recalcitrant minion I should punish and control!) or some SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUE (more coersion and unpleasantness) is ridiculous. Its by and large harmless, maybe you should be asking yourself why your kid doesnt have a healthier way to vent and release?
"Mean Business"... haha. If you did that shit and your kid ran off Id personally go take them out and do EVERYTHING youre afraid of them doing. Why?
1. Im free, white, and 21.
2. The VAST majority of people who imbibe alcohol (which I do rarely now and did rarely BEFORE I was 21...) smoke or take recreational drugs are a-oh-fucking-kay.
3. To spite you.
A family isnt about the oldest bitterest person calling the shots, its supposed to be mutually supportive.
Oh, and program rules and regulations, and the punishments for not doing as told are NOT "real world". Theyre BULLSHIT and the only thing theyre good for is teaching how to survive under a dictatorship.
To the mom who started this thread - Your girl isnt being threatened and coersed anymore, so shes not acting out of fear anymore. Try teaching her to be mature and act responsibly when shes NOT under duress, unless you want to lock her up forever (which is WRONG anyway).
Get her a fucking job. Most people just GROW UP anyway, but jobs help people be more responsible. The state of PA did a study on recidivism rates of teens who went through bootcamp vs just prison vs nothing, and they found no effect.
They did find recidivism was lower in those who had jobs, though. :wink:I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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I am assuming that this was directed at me, the anon poster above. I am AKA The Liger, but am using some else's computer, by the way.
In answer to your questions about my life, I am married with 1.5 children, and I am in my third year of law school. So, I suppose I contribute good parenting and legal extpertise to society.
So, with all due respect, I think I'm goin' up the right road.
On 2005-12-29 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yes, I'll come back at you. I've been with my child, recently, in the real world, and is very admirable, respectable, and ready to take it on. What do you do? What do you contribute to society? Bash me all you want, but this is what I see your life is all about. Being on stupid forums like this, somehow trying to find your way. Your up the wrong road, and you will see. "
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Also, I was sexually abused at the program that I attended. I also witnessed one of my friends being sexually abused. I also witnessed several girls being physically abused and emotionally abused. The people I know are not crying about petty events. They were severely traumatized and want to stop others from being hurt as well. Helping others is a good value, but people like you like to portray it as "holding on to bitterness" or something stupid like that. By the way, YOU sound like the bitter one.
On 2005-12-29 15:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"and now that you've started, what are you doing now? blaming the world for your actions in the past, or leading a productive one. Since you know from experience, where did you go? Were you the rebellious type and still are, and are now sitting on mommas cushy couch bitching on the computer. I think you know what I want you to do, it's just easier and cushier for you to bitch about your "hard time, and abuse". Can you not actually get a life by yourself?
"
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On 2005-12-29 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"re: truth searcher. First of all i disagree with the last poster in that sometimes I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree, then if done correctly, build it back up so they see a new self and willingness to persue that to make them happy and confident.
That!! That statement right there should make you RUN and run fast away from places and people like this.
If your really wanting to know what to do, this board, which is a very minute group of hostile people who never got it, is not the place to contimplate or make decisions.
Why do you people always insist that we never "got it"? We get it alright, we've been getting it for a long time now. I hope the Searcher seeks out advice from all areas and then uses their deductive reasoning and CRITICAL THOUGHT process (something you DO have to give up in order to "get" these places) to make up their mind.
You should seek other neutral and knowledgable advise.
Good, we agree on something. Hopefully they'll seek it from ALL areas.
She does not yet realize how much you care for her, what you've had to do, and how hard it is on you right now.
Right, she probably doesn't nor should she at this point. Living life in the real world for a while seems to bring about vision and appreciation though. Did with mine. I was wonderful again after years of being called the bitch, out of touch, etc.
Second, you and her have a definite communication gap. You MUST have regular communication sessions,and that is required to live in the house. If she's cutting herself, you'll have to decide if this is an attention thing, or does she need some real psychological help. You talk to her eye-to-eye where she knows you mean business, then do what you have to do, and tell her that you will because you love her. She will respect that regardless of what she might say immediately.
Is there a Dr. Frist syndrome going around that I'm not aware of? How is it that you people seem to be able to give a dx from a post on a web forum?
Lastly, I can fully understand your confusion and grief, and this site will only add to confusion. I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"= had to work, had to look at wall, had to not talk, had to not look.
was starved, was sleep deprived extensively, was beaten, died.....yeah, those are real trivial things.
Searcher I hope you see the kind of mentality you're dealing with here. The above quote is all to common. Apparently they think its funny to laugh at others pain.
No, everything in life is about choices.
It should be about choices but that goes out the window the second their put in one of these places.
About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall, loves his family, respects rules, and is very serious about not being around negative influences.
How can you propose to advise this person when you haven't even finished yet and have no idea what the mid or long term outcome will be? Check around, many of these kids come home as good, compliant kids and the parents are in heaven. Then reality hits them and more often than not, all shit hits the fan and the kid and parents have no idea what to do. Of course the parents will say that the kid wasn't trying hard enough or had strayed from the 'group think' mentality and if they had only held onto that they'd be just fine. Wrong. It's the group think that fucked 'em up in the first place.
I think you have hope to get help for your daughter, but it HAS to begin with you putting your foot down. She WILL participate in your discussions and your decisions, because YOU are the parent. And she can CHOOSE what she wants to do from there. Being 17, if she refuses, she's on her own. Then she'll be back, to go by your recommendations. "
Of course you have to set limits but I sure hope you're not going to be as controlling as this parent. It'll backfire, always does.
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On 2005-12-29 15:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
but this is what I see your life is all about. Being on stupid forums like this, somehow trying to find your way...
Well, that's the big problem with the troubled parent industry. More often than not, they see things that just aren't there and then act on them. Honest to God, Truth Seeker, I wouldn't take advice about your daughter from anyone who thinks the above is a logical, well founded statement. And I trust that they do.
The other anon gave some good, general advice about young adults. It was extremely difficult for me to watch my oldest make mistakes. But, without doing more harm than good, there was nothing we could do but keep reminding her we were on her side and hope she'd come around before making any really permanently damaging decisions.
Don't worry about highschool. Ask any college admissions counselor or anyone of accomplishment. It just doesn't matter. If she takes an interest in college at some point, she can knock out the credits and get her certificate w/ very little trouble. If she doesn't, then what's the point?
Given a choice between your typical hs diploma and peace w/ the family, I'd take peace w/ the family any day.
Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
been able to determine that for themselves,
albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
individuals did not wish to break the law but
they had no choice.
--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee
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1. Is your daughter hooking up with old friends? Could you find a relative at least a few hours away and ask your daughter if she wants a real fresh start? Maybe she could live with family elsewhere while getting on her feet.
2. The first thing I'd do is make it clear that you're not going to send her back to the program. I wish my mom would've listened to the traumatic things that happened to me IN the program. Maybe if you open a dialogue and begin by reassuring her that you agree the program didn't work and that since her stay you've researched that some teens have difficulty with what happened there and reentering the world, she may begin to see you as a resource in her life.
3. I wouldn't let her sit around the house and drop out, but maybe she'd prefer other options. Would you be willing to let her get her GED and then start jr. college or work full-time? Honestly she can go to college at any time with a GED, it won't hurt her a bit.
4. She is almost an adult, and your relationship with her will change drastically. You suggested that she is promiscuous and may end up pregnant. I don't have enough info here, but are you upset that she's having sex? Is she sleeping with multiple people or just within monogomous relationships? I would suggest meeting her halfway and trying not to pass judgment as she becomes an adult. As for drugs, does she smoke pot or is she a raging heroin addict? I would definitely pick my battles. If you hardly notice her smoking pot occasionally unless you've snooped, then maybe it's not worth fighting over. My main point is that the tough love, threatening approach the program taught you will only lead to permanent alienation.
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Excellent advice. :nworthy: :tup: :em:
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I second (or third?) the advice given about high school. It is not the end of the world if someone does not graduate from high school. I graduated from high school at a program a year early, and was accepted at a university afterward. I had to withdraw from all my classes during my first semester due to psychological stress from what happened to me at the facility. I literally could not handle the real world and had a major breakdown. Then, a year later, I started at a community college and did well. I went on to the university afterward.
Anyway, I basically took the same route that someone who got a GED would have to take. I went to community college, then university. When I applied to law school, no one cared whether or not I had a high school diploma.
Also, all of my post-high school education (after the breakdown semester) was my own choice and I paid for it myself. No one had to force me into it. I don't think any teenager is different. When you mature a little bit, you realize what I want you to do in life to be where you want to be. Parents should just trust that.
I think the difference between me and other people is that I am the kind of person who could not learn from what other people told me about life. I could only learn by my own mistakes and accomplishments. I think that may be true for a lot of kids who get sent to programs. They might just have a different path to take.
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Highschool is by and large bullshit. Youre forced to memorize and regurgitate useless information you forget over the summer until you start college anyway, and its mostly about enduring the social/mental bullshit and stress of all the conflicting deadlines, arbitrary or USELESS assignments and all the social bullshit, plus conforming to some stupid new dresscode rule or KNEE JERK THING TO FREAK OUT ABOUT OF THE YEAR.
I dropped out of HS, and the very next day I went to get my GED. Its true! They announced i had to sit in some classroom for 12 hours before I could take it tho, so I aced practice tests and just tutored other people.
I got 99th percentile on it, and Im now in the science major transfer program at Wake Tech. Im BROKE anyway so this is cheaper... :silly:
I also work on my own cars, built every computer I've owned, myself, starting at 10, and I've networked my own house when I was 15. I also had to basically keep my highschool's computer network, er, working, on my own, including jimmying the lock to the server closet to turn it on because the guy who worked on it intentionally set the BIOS for default power setting to "off" so if the power flickered, we had to wait a week for him to show up and turn it back on :wave: If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-12-30 05:46 ]
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P.S., so the trolls are happy, Ill leave a few hooks, and maybe let you just get a grasp on my intellect - my IQ is 146 per the stanford-binet scale (I took the Weschler test and got a 143, but its convertable to the stanford-binet scale which seems to be the standard) and basically everything I learend up until college I got from books, TV (discovery chan or PBS, etc) and now, the internet.
Nils - Your post was believable until you started to try to justify your position with posting your I.Q. (very strange). You seem very insecure with your need to always relay this info. If you simply be yourself and post what you feel to be the truth / your opinion, people will generally believe you.
No one is judged here based on their I.Q. or any other physical attributes.
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I am a natural blond (despite what others believe).
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P.S., so the trolls are happy, Ill leave a few hooks, and maybe let you just get a grasp on my intellect - my IQ is 146 per the stanford-binet scale (I took the Weschler test and got a 143, but its convertable to the stanford-binet scale which seems to be the standard) and basically everything I learend up until college I got from books, TV (discovery chan or PBS, etc) and now, the internet.
Im currently making my own frankensteined car from a 2nd RX-7 chassis and a ford 2.3Turbo powerplant (kind of an obscure powerplant) and Ill be using a "Megasquirt" ECU that Im going to tune myself with a wideband O2 sensor, all by myself. Breaking the mold is a good habit to get into.
I also work on my own cars, built every computer I've owned, myself, starting at 10, and I've networked my own house when I was 15. I also had to basically keep my highschool's computer network, er, working, on my own, including jimmying the lock to the server closet to turn it on because the guy who worked on it intentionally set the BIOS for default power setting to "off" so if the power flickered, we had to wait a week for him to show up and turn it back on .
None of that comes from just going along and doing as told, and learning a bunch of erroneous bullshit. It comes from learning about stuff you have an interest in and following through with it and specializing!
Oh, and guess what else? This experience will dovetail in a career as an engineer
Ummmm...hmm... ::blushing:: ::troll:: ::troll::
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On 2005-12-30 07:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
No one is judged here based on their I.Q. or any other physical attributes.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
OMG! That's so compelling! Folks, please understand this. THIS is the exact proprietary process by which these mindfuckers go about diagnosing their customers' children over the phone or by email. That anybody in this day and age is stupid enough to fall for this bullshit is just about beyond me. But then, some things never change. There's one born every minute.
You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
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I went into one of these programs in the mid 80's at age 16. Pot and alcohol were the drugs I had used.
I had not ONE SIP Of any alcohol for the following 10 years, nor did I smoke or do anything else. At age 26, I had champagne with my fiance. Then didn't drink any alcohol again for 5 years. I now drink maybe 3 drinks a year.
My experience in the program was good. No relapse, no arrest, better grades, a college degree. To each his own.
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'One of these programs' ... if you had a good experience, why not share the program you were in?
Could it be ... YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT... perhaps?
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Truth Searcher:
Would you be willing to share the name of the program your daughter attended?
I agree with others that I want you to attempt to sit down and talk about what your daughter wants to do. You can't force her to attend high school, but she needs to be doing something besides sitting around in her pajamas all day. I was kind of confused about you saying there are so many options and no restrictions? Do you have a set of household rules? Do you just not want to get back into the confrontation thing, or is she just completely immune now to your words and actions?
A young woman I care very much about is in an RTC, her third in the same system. She has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, and I believe that she needs a tremendous amount of therapy from a specialist, not what she is getting at these schools. However, since she is a borderline she is currently hating me and I have no legal say in her placement. Our "child" is also a cutter, and I used to feel that she did it because it was goth-fashionable, but have come to believe that it is a desperate attempt to either mitigate pain or to feel anything because she is so dissociative as to be numb.
Have you found a therapist at home for your daughter? Will she go? From your posts, it sounds like she might be extremely depressed
and having trouble adapting to an unstructured daily existence. But perhaps she is just completely defiant and acting out, feeling that you can not do anything to control her?
Our "child" will be 17 this year, and she has been in these programs for two years already. My heart aches for her and I wish I could bring her home to try again with more distance and greater resolve to just let her do whatever she needs to do without it getting me into an uproar. I wouldn't let her drive the car, use/abuse my stuff, steal from me or otherwise take advantage, but I would back completely away from trying to make her go to school, not to have promiscuous sex, etc....I can't change any of that. Although a lot of her risky behavior scares the hell out of me, the more I react or try to enforce behavior, the more ways she finds to take risks. And she always finds a way. I think you can require that she leave your house when you leave in the morning, and lock the door at a certain hour at night (although most teenagers can break into a house quicker than we oldsters can locate our keys)
I lurk here a lot, too, because I want to help but can not, because I believe large group awareness training is not a way to deal with psychological issues, and because I believe oppositional defiant behavior is a basic tenant of adolescence, but we all have to find a better way of dealing with it. The idea of your daughter going to live with a relative is a good one -- any options there? I don't know how you could "get her" a job, as another poster suggested, but I think a job or school would be a requirement. You may be required by law to keep her in your home until she is 18, but if she wants anything other than basic food, necessities and generic hygiene products, she needs to be doing something.
Just MHO
Sylvia
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So I guess if you post anon you can't edit your post. I see that it was not truth searcher who posted about the no restrictions. Sorry
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Wow. I really am grateful for the advise.
I realize how angry she is at her father and me for placing her in a treatment center. I have explained that if it was wrong that I am deeply sorry. But, I have also explained that I just did not know how else to help her. We both cried.
She just stopped to collect a few of her possessions. I told her to keep her cell phone and that I would be glad to pay for her rx meds if she decides to stay on them. She doesn't know where she is going to live. She doesn't know how she will survive. I assured her that the door is always open and that we love her very much. I guess she has to work through this the best way she can.
But, still, my heart is broken.[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-12-30 13:22 ]
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Anon/Sylvia~
I am not sure where you got the idea that there are too many options and few restrictions .... ?
Of course there are house rules ....
No drugging
Attend high school and get passing grades (not too difficult as she is bright)
Attend church with us once on Sunday morning
Help out around the house with chores
Offer basic respect and civility to other family members
Pretty basic. I don't have a problem with confrontation. But, she doesn't enjoy it too much. She usually bolts when there are any conflicts. And she is just plain being defiant "I will not ...".
I know my daughters cutting is not attention seeking. It is a real cry for help. She too, has been labeled "borderline", but I'm not much for labels. My desire is to help her find healthier ways of coping with stress and the shit life throws at us.
Living with a relative is not an option. At least not one she is willing to consider. She wants to be "foot loose and fancy free". That means no adults trying to steer her in any direction ... so at this point I see her flopping at friends houses till their parents get tired of her ...
Sorry if I'm ranting on and on ... I hurt for her. I hurt for me. I hurt for our family. I just want her to be a happy well adjusted person ...
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Truth Searcher:
My heart aches for you. Maybe she will stay with friends for a while and return. Or maybe she will forge herself a life.
I left home when I was 17 and was estranged from my folks for a few years in my 20s. We may not have a perfect relationship now, but my parents and I talk, visit each other, love each other, mostly accept each other.
I went through some things I would never want my daughter to go through but I survived. Your daughter can, too. And you can help her get there while keeping healthy boundaries.
I'm so sorry that she is so angry with you, but I can understand being at wit's end and though many posters on this site scoff, I really was terrified about our kid ending up dead. In the next few days. We had exhausted every local option.
The fact that you could talk a little and cry together today may be a bigger breakthough than you realize. Once she has a little space and time away, it may be easier for you to talk to each other, maybe get some family counseling.
Telling her you were there for her and love her was the best thing you could have done. She isn't as young and unable to care for herself as you think she is, and she isn't as old and invincible as she thinks she is. Her friends will only let her camp for so long without helping with rent, etc., so she will be out there trying to find a job. This could be a real eye-opener. It could make school look good!
Hang in there, troubled truth searcher. I have tears in my eyes and am sending good thoughts and high hopes out for you and your daughter.
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On 2005-12-30 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I went into one of these programs in the mid 80's at age 16. Pot and alcohol were the drugs I had used.
I had not ONE SIP Of any alcohol for the following 10 years, nor did I smoke or do anything else. At age 26, I had champagne with my fiance. Then didn't drink any alcohol again for 5 years. I now drink maybe 3 drinks a year.
My experience in the program was good. No relapse, no arrest, better grades, a college degree. To each his own."
If you were in programs in the mid '80s and are now 26, you were about 6 when in the program! Nice try, program troll.
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Just a suggestion....
It sounds like you value your church based on your requirement that your daughter attend, but maybe that is too much for her right now. Why make a hypocrite out of her if you know she's having sex, etc.? Would you be willing to let her skip church but let her know she's always welcome? It might be a way to meet her halfway if she comes back home.
My heart goes out to you. I wish my parents would've sat me down and had the talk you had with her about the program not being the best choice. That would have meant everything to me.
Good luck. You are in my thoughts.
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Just let your daughter get laid, you dont want a sexually frustrated teen! They are the WORST!!!SEX IS GOOD FOR THE MIND,BODY, AND SOUL..Just use a rubber
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On 2005-12-30 05:45:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Highschool is by and large bullshit. Youre forced to memorize and regurgitate useless information you forget over the summer until you start college anyway, and its mostly about enduring the social/mental bullshit and stress of all the conflicting deadlines, arbitrary or USELESS assignments and all the social bullshit, plus conforming to some stupid new dresscode rule or KNEE JERK THING TO FREAK OUT ABOUT OF THE YEAR.
I dropped out of HS, and the very next day I went to get my GED. Its true! They announced i had to sit in some classroom for 12 hours before I could take it tho, so I aced practice tests and just tutored other people.
I got 99th percentile on it, and Im now in the science major transfer program at Wake Tech. Im BROKE anyway so this is cheaper... :silly:
I also work on my own cars, built every computer I've owned, myself, starting at 10, and I've networked my own house when I was 15. I also had to basically keep my highschool's computer network, er, working, on my own, including jimmying the lock to the server closet to turn it on because the guy who worked on it intentionally set the BIOS for default power setting to "off" so if the power flickered, we had to wait a week for him to show up and turn it back on :wave: If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-12-30 05:46 ]"
And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?
Are you that insecure? If so, that is incredible sad...............
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On 2005-12-30 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just a suggestion....
It sounds like you value your church based on your requirement that your daughter attend, but maybe that is too much for her right now. Why make a hypocrite out of her if you know she's having sex, etc.? Would you be willing to let her skip church but let her know she's always welcome? It might be a way to meet her halfway if she comes back home.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. When I hit 14 and was to formally become a member of our church, I told my pastor that I couldn't take the oath. I simply didn't believe the doctrin as taught and couldn't honestly swear that I did. He was fine with that. Made sure to remind me that plenty of people turn up at Sunday services and other events who weren't members and that I was always welcome to do the same or ask his advice or prayers or what have you; that it changed nothing. Good man, Don Taws. Really, one of my early heros.
My mom, on the other hand, freaked out! When I declined to keep going to church with her, that set her on a mission. It meant all sorts of things to her that simply weren't true. If Don wouldn't be on her side, why then she'd just keep knocking on doors till she found adequate support for her convictions.
It ended very badly.
My heart goes out to you. I wish my parents would've sat me down and had the talk you had with her about the program not being the best choice. That would have meant everything to me.
Good luck. You are in my thoughts."
Yeah, me too. My dad and I did have that talk. And it did mean the world to me! But only for one reason; he actually MEANT it! Once we had resolved to bury the hatchet, it was buried good and deep. He quit trying to fix me. He quit trying to manipulate me into doing what he thought best.
He wasn't just waiting for me to fall on my ass and come crawling to him for help. He went back to plan A, pre program, expecting me to succeed.
So when he asked how I was doing, I could tell him without worry. It wasn't a trick and he wouldn't ever again override my will to 'help' me. I could ask his advice, brag about a new job or whine about how much work and expense kids really are. That always made him laugh. He always wished 6 kids on me, all girls and all just like me. I could just drop in on him and have some coffee and let him play w/ his granddaughter and just shoot the shit about life, politics (his and my favorite topic) or the weather.
Absolutely priceless, I tell ya! There is just nothing in this world that can replace a sincere welcome in a safe home by someone who you really can trust. Nothing!
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2005-12-30 14:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just let your daughter get laid, you dont want a sexually frustrated teen! They are the WORST!!!SEX IS GOOD FOR THE MIND,BODY, AND SOUL..Just use a rubber"
I completely agree with this post here.
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On 2005-12-30 14:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?
No, I think it's just about not sweating the petty things. So often, school comes between parents and kids. Really, it's nowhere near as important as the career educators and their behaviorist mentors think it is. Most adults just never question the status quo, can't imagine a life without the 12 year sentence. That's why so many of them imagine the worst and lose their grip when their kid has had enough of the whole thing. Parents, remember, school is not what it used to be. We're still making kids to the same specs. But highschools is just a whole lot more messed up than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
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On 2005-12-30 15:28:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-12-30 14:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?
No, I think it's just about not sweating the petty things. So often, school comes between parents and kids. Really, it's nowhere near as important as the career educators and their behaviorist mentors think it is. Most adults just never question the status quo, can't imagine a life without the 12 year sentence. That's why so many of them imagine the worst and lose their grip when their kid has had enough of the whole thing. Parents, remember, school is not what it used to be. We're still making kids to the same specs. But highschools is just a whole lot more messed up than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
"
Oh I understand that....and that may have been expressed in the first line of the post. But all the other extraneous stuff? All the "proof" of how supposedly brilliant the poster was? What is the purpose of that? Just seems to show incredibile insecurity - and it is sad in its intensity.
Personally, I think high schools have "dumbed down" in the area of responsibility. They treat the students like little kids, with no responsibility at all - which I believe is a mistake.
But I do disagree with some of what you say. So far as the actually intrinsic value of high school - yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired. But it is still a gauge for determining who gets in college, what job you get, etc etc. Colleges and employers don't know you as an individual, and they have to make their selection based on something. High grades and performance is a "common denominator" for these people.
Is it right? Is it the best measurement? Maybe not - but the reality is that is is one of the few "yardsticks" to measure by. And until there is something better, it will remain important for that aspect if nothing else.
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On 2005-12-30 14:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just let your daughter get laid, you dont want a sexually frustrated teen! They are the WORST!!!SEX IS GOOD FOR THE MIND,BODY, AND SOUL..Just use a rubber"
:nworthy: :lol:
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On 2005-12-30 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-30 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I went into one of these programs in the mid 80's at age 16. Pot and alcohol were the drugs I had used.
I had not ONE SIP Of any alcohol for the following 10 years, nor did I smoke or do anything else. At age 26, I had champagne with my fiance. Then didn't drink any alcohol again for 5 years. I now drink maybe 3 drinks a year.
My experience in the program was good. No relapse, no arrest, better grades, a college degree. To each his own."
If you were in programs in the mid '80s and are now 26, you were about 6 when in the program! Nice try, program troll."
Actually 26+5=31. So by actually reading the post, 31 is the youngest he can be. 31-16=15, 15 is a pretty fesible age to be placed in a program. Reading comprehension seems to be a problem around here :cool: That doesn't mean this person isn't infact a troll though. Just means you didn't comprehend what you were reading :wink:
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Wow- you so smart, can I be like you?
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I understand why Niles wrote what he did. It was probably in anticipation of the old "well you hate the programs cause you're a loser who isn't doing anything with your life except sitting around crying about some make-up abuse" routine. Which, by the way, happened to me a few pages back and I had to respond with some of my accomplishments to refute. It felt like bragging, but there was a point.
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On 2005-12-30 19:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-30 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-30 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I went into one of these programs in the mid 80's at age 16. Pot and alcohol were the drugs I had used.
I had not ONE SIP Of any alcohol for the following 10 years, nor did I smoke or do anything else. At age 26, I had champagne with my fiance. Then didn't drink any alcohol again for 5 years. I now drink maybe 3 drinks a year.
My experience in the program was good. No relapse, no arrest, better grades, a college degree. To each his own."
If you were in programs in the mid '80s and are now 26, you were about 6 when in the program! Nice try, program troll."
Actually 26+5=31. So by actually reading the post, 31 is the youngest he can be. 31-16=15, 15 is a pretty fesible age to be placed in a program. Reading comprehension seems to be a problem around here :cool: That doesn't mean this person isn't infact a troll though. Just means you didn't comprehend what you were reading :wink: "
**Were you one of those teenagers who thinks they're alcoholic? So now you judge your "success" of your "program" by how much alcohol you have consumed since leaving, and since you have become of legal age?? Stupid, stupid girl.
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On 2005-12-30 17:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Oh I understand that....and that may have been expressed in the first line of the post. But all the other extraneous stuff? All the "proof" of how supposedly brilliant the poster was? What is the purpose of that? Just seems to show incredibile insecurity - and it is sad in its intensity.
Well, I suppose if that's what you're looking to find. I didn't read it that way, though. And why zero in on the perceived faults? The rest of what he said was really pretty kind and well born. Niles had a rough time in school, despite the fact that he's really pretty objectively brilliant in the areas that the accademicians tell us all that they care about. Never mind what they say, watch what they do. Doesn't matter whether it's ill intent or bumbling ineptitude. At the end of the day, they make life tough on good, inquisitive and gifted students and encourage medeocrity.
I think that was half the point. The other half was that, being the obviously misguided altruists that they are, even when they do their damndest to beat a kid down and almost push them past the point of breaking, you can win!
That's what we're talking about, remember? A kid who's gone through a program, almost passed the gauntlet, and now is in troubled waters at home over this stupid shit. And it is stupid shit.
TruthSeeker, for some comfort food for thought, you just go and read the bios of some of the most accomplished, celebrated heros in our history. You'll find that very few of them graduated anything similar to highschool, and those who did count it as a waste of time.
It's just not that big a deal, regardless of what you've been told. It's certainly not worth fighting w/ your daughter.
Personally, I think high schools have "dumbed down" in the area of responsibility. They treat the students like little kids, with no responsibility at all - which I believe is a mistake.
Yes, I agree. And isn't it interesting that the kids who chafe under that cruel yoke (and I'm not being sarcastic here) are the ones who draw the attention of the troubled parent industry and of the schoolpeople who think of it as a modern new convenience?
Yeah, huge fucking mistake! Bigger than and more profound than the behaviorists can even comprehend.
But I do disagree with some of what you say. So far as the actually intrinsic value of high school - yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired. But it is still a gauge for determining who gets in college, what job you get, etc etc.
No, it's really not anymore. They care more about impressive applications that actually demonstrate ability, basic competence, drive and understanding. The stats are so politicized anymore that a college or university that values their reputation would be foolish to rely on them.
Colleges and employers don't know you as an individual, and they have to make their selection based on something. High grades and performance is a "common denominator" for these people.
ROFLMAO! Ok, I'll remember that next time I pay the bills.
Is it right? Is it the best measurement? Maybe not - but the reality is that is is one of the few "yardsticks" to measure by.
Nope, there are many and varied and far better and more relavent yardsticks. Look, if you really want to understand what our school system is about, and maybe to understand what kids have been complaining about since Mark Twain, Pink Floyd and Columbine, read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education Here's a link
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm)
And until there is something better, it will remain important for that aspect if nothing else."
In my dad's day, school was better than nothing. That's already been turned on it's head. Now? Now, nothing (nothing out of the way of day-to-day living) really is, litterally, better.
Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
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And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?
Are you that insecure? If so, that is incredible sad...............
I can claim you can't correctly spell "incredibly" which is the adverb form of incredible, which is an adjective.
Ok, smartassedness aside, it was to demonstrate that highschool is bullshit and ultimately meaningless, and like Liger said, so someone cant call me a "loser" or call me stupid, etc.
Well, that and so people will try to troll on that instead of the actual topic at hand, so if they troll in a way I know they will, its even easier for me to shut them up :roll: May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
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On 2005-12-31 02:18:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?
Are you that insecure? If so, that is incredible sad...............
I can claim you can't correctly spell "incredibly" which is the adverb form of incredible, which is an adjective.
Ok, smartassedness aside, it was to demonstrate that highschool is bullshit and ultimately meaningless, and like Liger said, so someone cant call me a "loser" or call me stupid, etc.
Well, that and so people will try to troll on that instead of the actual topic at hand, so if they troll in a way I know they will, its even easier for me to shut them up :roll: May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
"
Oh my - could it be - an "AD HOMINEM" attack against me? Because I made a typo? Even funnier when you look at YOUR typos - and use words like "smartassedness".
And you explanation is the very definition of insecurity - - 'so they won't call me a loser'.
Now I'm sure you can explain how rebuilding engines and playing with networks and supposedly having a high IQ - has to do with the topic? Oh yeah, that's right - the topic is always how brilliant YOU are.
And you will respond - you can't help yourself.
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Oh my - could it be - an "AD HOMINEM" attack against me? Because I made a typo? Even funnier when you look at YOUR typos - and use words like "smartassedness".
Are you serious??? I move to attach "Sense of Humor" badges to the user icons - and the people who lack one would be obvious. Heeeeeeeeeere's your sheep. :grin:
And you explanation is the very definition of insecurity - - 'so they won't call me a loser'.
Now I'm sure you can explain how rebuilding engines and playing with networks and supposedly having a high IQ - has to do with the topic? Oh yeah, that's right - the topic is always how brilliant YOU are.
And you will respond - you can't help yourself."
Mmmmkay.. and I also had to make such a post myself - that makes three of us, if you caught Liger's post. Here's my insecurity: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#67662 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6964&forum=13&start=50#67662)
On the other hand, Niles is actually smarter - he saw it coming instead of waiting for the attack :grin:
Or maybe you're just too predictable?This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-12-31 05:25 ]
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If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it. If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.
The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.
Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large ego.[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-02-17 15:32 ]
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On 2005-12-31 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it. If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.
The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.
Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large penis."
DING! Humor points for you! Sadly, we can't pin your badge on a paper bag. :grin:The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
George Washington
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I do agree with you all about high school being useless in most respects..... with a few exceptions: I believe (at least in my daughters case) that it is a training ground for life. It is about learning a good work ethic. It is about learning organizational skills. Time management. It is about doing menial tasks even when we don't want to. It is about dealing with jerk people. It is about respecting someone in authority.
I don't give two hoots if she remembers anything about geometry or psychology. I care that she is prepared to take care of herself in the real world without a safety net under her.
Thats why I struggle with the idea of letting her quit high school. In addition, in our very economically depressed area, it is tough to flip burgers without a high school education. There are too many people looking for work in this area. Supply and demand is not on her side.
[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-12-31 11:19 ]
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On 2005-12-31 11:19:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"I do agree with you all about high school being useless in most respects..... with a few exceptions:
Well, yeah, that's the largely unchallented default belief about it. And it's all pretty much the way I believed when I put my eldest kid in school. I've decided that was a big oversight on my part. Should have followed my gut and looked into it further. Let me challenge your thinking on this, point by point.
I believe (at least in my daughters case) that it is a training ground for life.
Better training for life than real life? How is that possible?
It is about learning a good work ethic.
My dad taught me a good work ethic. He worked. He worked for pay to support us, he worked on projects around the house, he worked on cars, he worked on constantly improving his education through reading everything around. I worked with him part time repairing ceiling fans for a neighbor's trendy Hunter Fan shop. And I worked for the guitar I wanted by babysitting, mowing lawns, throwing papers... anything you could name or I could think of to suggest. Wash your car? Sweep your sidewalk, ma'am? Walk your dog? Wash the damned dog?
There was NONE of that going on in school. Almost all of the "work" was busy work. It was just a lot of sitting, enforced boredome, something to be endured till I could get to the work I wanted to do.
It is about learning organizational skills.
By being told what to do, what to think about, how to think about it and when to quit being interested, rush to the next class and just as quickly become interested in something else? You don't learn organizational skills by having someone else dictate to you just exactly how you'll organize your thoughts and papers, right down to which grade of pencil (not pen!) you'll use.
Time management.
Ditto. You learn time management by having free time all your own with which to accomplish something of some value. Dear god PLEASE let me paint a room or make a candle or learn to play something on that damned guitar but PLEASE, if nothing else, let my time be well spent and not wated on meaningless friggin' busy work!
It is about doing menial tasks even when we don't want to.
What kind of life are you trying to prepare her for? Slave work? Prison? What could possibly be the value of doing meanial tasks that the doer doesn't even want done? Except to break their will just a bit.
It is about dealing with jerk people.
The best way I know of to do that is to avoid them. Outside of school, we learn to choose our friends wisely, to associate with people worthy of our time, attention, respect and company. The second best way is to outsmart them. The next would probably be to just wait patiently till they fuck themselves so you can laugh. I learned that in school because options 1 and 2 above were closed to me.
It is about respecting someone in authority.
In the real world, you tolerate assholes who manage to gain some authority. But you give your respect to people who earn it from you.
I don't give two hoots if she remembers anything about geometry or psychology. I care that she is prepared to take care of herself in the real world without a safety net under her. Thats why I struggle with the idea of letting her quit high school.
School is about the worst place to learn those things. Except maybe prison, but it's close.
In addition, in our very economically depressed area, it is tough to flip burgers without a high school education. There are too many people looking for work in this area. Supply and demand is not on her side.
In any type of economy, it takes some wit, some determination, some creativity and confidence to make it. Don't you go telling her she can't do this or can't do that. What do you know about what she can do? What does anybody know? You believe in God? Well, I don't, but if he did exist, he'd be the only one who actually knows what your daughter can't do. Don't stand in the way of her finding out.
This, of course, is all my thinking on it. I'd be very interested in hearing your daughter's take on it. Also, you and she both might enjoy reading some John Taylor Gatto. Here's his whole 800 pg tome online for free:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm)
Or you can find a copy in your library system, I'm sure. Please do ask your kid to read my post and tell me what she thinks.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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On 2005-12-31 10:13:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2005-12-31 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it. If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.
The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.
Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large penis."
DING! Humor points for you! Sadly, we can't pin your badge on a paper bag. :grin:The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
George Washington
"
I liked your insecurity too !! Can I attach a badge?
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On 2005-12-29 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"re: truth searcher. First of all i disagree with the last poster in that sometimes I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree, then if done correctly, build it back up so they see a new self and willingness to pursue that to make them happy and confident. I will get bashed on this board, but really, it sounds like your concerned, have done what you had to do, and things aren't going exactly right right now. If your really wanting to know what to do, this board, which is a very minute group of hostile people who never got it, is not the place to contemplate or make decisions. You should seek other neutral and knowledgeable advise. That being said, reading your post, this is what I think. There is definitely recidivism. Not to blame you, because you do care, but that is again being taken advantage of. You ARE the responsible adult, and you CAN and WILL make the decisions based upon her living in YOUR house! She does not yet realize how much you care for her, what you've had to do, and how hard it is on you right now. Second, you and her have a definite communication gap. You MUST have regular communication sessions,and that is required to live in the house. If she's cutting herself, you'll have to decide if this is an attention thing, or does she need some real psychological help. You talk to her eye-to-eye where she knows you mean business, then do what you have to do, and tell her that you will because you love her. She will respect that regardless of what she might say immediately. Lastly, I can fully understand your confusion and grief, and this site will only add to confusion. I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"= had to work, had to look at wall, had to not talk, had to not look. Sorry, not had to, but was "forced" to. No, everything in life is about choices. It is spelled out from the beginning what the rules are. In a program, or in real life. Now, I'll really get bombed for this. But you know what, when my teen was really headed for big trouble, and I had been through all the legal ramifications that went with it, I talked to many people, did my own investigations, and personally took my child to one I was comfortable with. About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall, loves his family, respects rules, and is very serious about not being around negative influences. I think you have hope to get help for your daughter, but it HAS to begin with you putting your foot down. She WILL participate in your discussions and your decisions, because YOU are the parent. And she can CHOOSE what she wants to do from there. Being 17, if she refuses, she's on her own. Then she'll be back, to go by your recommendations. "
Free will. It is interesting to me how this concept is twisted and turned by program supporters to suit the moment. Let's see, "...everything in life is about choices." This comes after, "I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree..." The contradiction is so latent, I can't imagine you proof read it and still actually posted it.
Let me see if I get the program logic correct. It goes like this:
1. A young person becomes a troubled teenager because of some negative influence; trauma, loss, bad friends, bad parents, whatever. It's really not their fault and they didn't really choose to be 'troubled.' It just somehow happened to them. Choice had little to do with it.
2. They are now "out of control" and making bad decisions. They are choosing to do the wrong things.
3. The parents, as a last resort, having tried everything else imaginable, find it necessary to lock the teen up against their will. " They must ("...have done what you had to do...") break the teen down and then build them up. By force. Against their will. The teen has no choice in the matter, because the parents are in charge.
4. The program will modify the teen's behavior by teaching them to make better decisions. They will allow the teen to decide to follow the program's rules or be punished. They cannot leave until they agree with the programs's and their parent's rules. After all, "...everything in life is about choices."
5. "About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall (delusional), loves his family (You give the program the credit for this?), respects rules (has no free will and is obedient), and is very serious about not being around negative influences (agrees not to hang with people you don't like)."
But seriously, your son has simply learned to play the game. He knows that the only way he can get through this is to go with those who have such power over him. For now, this works. He may even believe in the game, since he has not been exposed to any alternative viewpoints. The difficulty will come into play when he really is free to make his own choices and encounters those opposing viewpoints. He won't know how to choose. He has never had any experience in making his own choices. As a child, he lacked the capacity. As a teen he was locked up and forced to obey. As an adult he will have to figure it out on his own.
One last thing. Are you serious about not being around negative influences? How do you define this board? Would/will you allow your son to read this board? You do. You posted on it.
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AA,
I appreciate your brillant thinking!!
Glad you made your way to the party.
Happy New Year (emoticon didn't work.
Deborah
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Truth Searcher: you say you don't like the idea of "letting your daughter quit high school." You just may have no choice about it!! She can always take the GED. NOT graduating from a traditional school is not the end of the world. You seem to continue to project way into the FUTURE instead of concentrating on what is going on TODAY. The educational issue can be resolved by taking a GED test, and this diploma is recognized by employers and most colleges and universities. This girl has reached what most people consider the age of majority, and she should be allowed to make her own choices regarding religion. She appears to already be making her own decisions about her sexuality. BUT; two important issues need to be addressed: her housing, and her cutting herself. Your guidance and input are critical in these areas.
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Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part. If it were my daughter and she was under 18 she'd be going to school. If it came down to her not wanting to go past the age of 18 I'd tell her she could do what she wanted.
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On 2006-01-01 04:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part. If it were my daughter and she was under 18 she'd be going to school. If it came down to her not wanting to go past the age of 18 I'd tell her she could do what she wanted. "
Its difficult to force someone to go to school.
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not if they are living in YOUR house without paying rent, bills....If you don't want to follow the rules, get a job, get your own place, fix your own meals, figure out your own transportation, have your own life. And finally be happy following your own rules.
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On 2006-01-01 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"not if they are living in YOUR house without paying rent, bills....If you don't want to follow the rules, get a job, get your own place, fix your own meals, figure out your own transportation, have your own life. And finally be happy following your own rules."
My daughter came home and had a difficult transition. She initially went back with her old friends but eventually got bored with them and moved on. I was worried for awhile but we communicated with each other and new she was in a good space.
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On 2006-01-01 04:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part.
Perri, how could you possibly make such an assessment? You don't even know this girl, you don't know what kind of school we're talking about, what the girls' priorities and passions may be, what other options avail themselves. Hell, we don't even know that this kid is 'troubled', only that her mother seems to think so. And, even at that* her strongest evidence is that this 17.75 yo gal has better things to do with her Sunday mornings than attend church services and doesn't find highschool particularly valuable. Pretty weak, if you ask me.
*Sorry, Truth Searcher. Please don't take offense. I don't really believe w/ full conviction anything a stranger tells me, especially when I know afore hand that they're very emotionally wrapped up in the topic. The plans of true believers for our lives may well be better than our own when judged against some abstract official standard, but to deny people their personal struggles is to render existence absurd.
John Taylor Gatto
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Ouch Antigen....
My strongest evidence is that she has better things to do with her Sunday morning huh? PLEASE! Well if she's not "troubled" I certainly don't know what standards define "troubled".
Lets recap:
She's dabbled in drugs ... heavy stuff ... pcp ...rx pain killers... meth. She says shes an addict ... she was voluntarily attending NA meetings. She has been in 2 drug rehab centers, by her own personal choice.
She's a cutter. I don't mean scratcher. I mean her arms look like an atlas.
She's been promiscuous. I don't mean one or two partners while using protection. I mean any guy, any where ... and then there are her orientation issues ... and then hating her self afterward. Mind you I did not say that I struggle with these choices. But there is so much self-loathing and lack of sense of self that it makes me very sad.
She's been suicidal. Struggles with it frequently. Has had the pills laying out on the counter. Has checked herself into psych wards - twice.
And then there's the failure to thrive in school settings.... which after looking at the preceding list is really a moot point.
The church thing is not that significant. She has not had a problem with attending church ... we have been very open to her exploring other faiths. She even asked about reading other sacred texts ... I'm open to that. She is a spiritual person ... she may or may not choose my faith ... and that is her choice.
And your right ... I'm emotionally wrapped up. This has been a struggle for this kid for almost 8 fucking (pardon my French yes?)years. I feel like a totally ineffective parent. I love my child. You know what I mean ... you're a mom.
BTW ... she's not 17.75. She's 17 and a couple months. In some ways she's wise beyond her years. In other ways she's very immature.
Her priorities? Staying alive.
Her passions? Thats a really good question. She is passionate about dead rockers ...
She STATES she has no goals.
I will agree that she finds absolutely no value in high school ... aside from the social opportunities it lends. And I am at the point where if I have to choose between a relationship with her or waging war over high school, I choose the relationship. I think in the long run she will be better served.
Go easy on me Antigen ... I'm a broken hearted mom who just loves her kid.
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BTW ... yes that was my post ... I hadn't logged in properly.
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On 2006-01-01 14:18:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 04:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part.
*Sorry, Truth Searcher. Please don't take offense. I don't really believe w/ full conviction anything a stranger tells me, especially when I know afore hand that they're very emotionally wrapped up in the topic. The plans of true believers for our lives may well be better than our own when judged against some abstract official standard, but to deny people their personal struggles is to render existence absurd.
John Taylor Gatto
"
I am truly not being a smart ass here, but if this is true, how do you believe ANYTHING anyone posts on here? Aren't they all pretty much "strangers"? Even the ones that have posted for a while - they are still really strangers. You only know what they tell you - they can claim anything they want to. I bet you would be surprised if you knew the real truth about some of these posters.
I have read thru some of these threads and that is the thing that strikes me. If a "stranger" comes here and posts about what horrors happened, they are immediately believed and accepted. But if a "stranger" comes here and says they were helped, they are accused of being "programmies". If someone questions the claims, they are slammed, called names, etc.
Just an observation - truly not truly to start anything and hope it is taken in the spirit in which it is offered.
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I think for people who went to a program, it's easy to believe abuse stories and hard to believe "it saved my life" stories. We were there and we know what happened. That's how it is for me anyway. Not that I believe everything someone says bad about a program. Some of the things I have heard about staff from the program I was in were hard for me to believe and I had to think about it for a while.
I also think that the air of secrecy around all of these programs gives way to abuse claims. If the programs and program supporters don't like it, they should open their doors, sign up for state licensing, and stop trying to hide from public scrutiny. Otherwise, the claims are totally believable. There is no way to refute them.
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On 2006-01-01 15:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 14:18:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 04:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part.
*Sorry, Truth Searcher. Please don't take offense. I don't really believe w/ full conviction anything a stranger tells me, especially when I know afore hand that they're very emotionally wrapped up in the topic. The plans of true believers for our lives may well be better than our own when judged against some abstract official standard, but to deny people their personal struggles is to render existence absurd.
John Taylor Gatto
"
I am truly not being a smart ass here, but if this is true, how do you believe ANYTHING anyone posts on here? Aren't they all pretty much "strangers"? Even the ones that have posted for a while - they are still really strangers. You only know what they tell you - they can claim anything they want to. I bet you would be surprised if you knew the real truth about some of these posters.
I have read thru some of these threads and that is the thing that strikes me. If a "stranger" comes here and posts about what horrors happened, they are immediately believed and accepted. But if a "stranger" comes here and says they were helped, they are accused of being "programmies". If someone questions the claims, they are slammed, called names, etc.
Just an observation - truly not truly to start anything and hope it is taken in the spirit in which it is offered."
This is so true. I have been on and off this site for about a year and each time I mention my experience or offer ways to improve the present situation I was hammered and called names you would not believe, asked to log on as "Mrs Gray" what ever that means and the only hint of defense from anyone was "Dont take it personally, these people have been thru alot". The anger and hatred is amazing and no one seems to want to change things or help, I believe most of the people here, if they had to do their lives over again, would choose the same path because they enjoy where they are !! I just dont get it. If you dont believe me just try to sign on and offer to help or change things and then sit back and wait for the roar of critisism, the message is "Dont change a thing, we enjoy posting articles about bad things the programs do, updating lists of those killed, it validates our anger and somehow makes us feel good, please dont take that away from us"!!!
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There are other teen help forums, if this one bothers you both so much, why do you stay here? I think you guys LOVE to complain about this board, and want nothing to change. :roll: See how stupid it sounds?
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"Dont change a thing, we enjoy posting articles about bad things the programs do, updating lists of those killed, it validates our anger and somehow makes us feel good, please dont take that away from us"!!!>>>>
Oh give it a rest.
2005 was a good year.
As I recall 6 or more programs were closed in Mx last year.
Several in the states.
Federal legislation is being proposed.
I'm sure there is more that I'm not thinking of right now.
The activity on this site alone has exploded in the last couple of years. Not to mention the groups that survivors are putting up.
BTW, what are you doing????
Are you the idiot who wants to compare programs with public schools? Go do it, and quit whining because others don't support wasting their time on such a boneheaded idea.
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On 2006-01-01 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
Well if she's not "troubled" I certainly don't know what standards define "troubled".
She's a cutter.
She's been promiscuous.
But there is so much self-loathing and lack of sense of self that it makes me very sad.
She's been suicidal.
And then there's the failure to thrive in school settings
Truth Searcher, This description of your daughter reads like a textbook entry for Borderline Personality Disorder, which you said in an earlier post she was diagnosed with. You also said you consider that " a label" and you don't value labels.
What if she had some other condition, say...Diabetes...would you treat that as a "label" and just overlook the diagnosis?
Have you taken into consideration the fact that your daughter is in dire need of psychological help even though you aren't willing to consider her condition as true medical condition? BPD is not just "a cry for help"... it is a REAL and SERIOUS disorder and if she has already been diagnosed as BPD, I'd like to know what the hell you are waiting for in terms of getting her the treatment she needs from a DOCTOR...this is what doctors are for! She doesn't need "tough love"... she needs love and care and compassion and medical treatment from a competent psychologist/psychiatrist...
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Antigen,
That was my opinion. I never claimed to be right. It is simply what I think. If she wants to get her GED great. If she doesn't...well that will make things more difficult. These days a minimum of a HS degree is becoming more and more standard for employment.
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On 2006-01-02 03:22:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Antigen,
That was my opinion. I never claimed to be right. It is simply what I think. If she wants to get her GED great. If she doesn't...well that will make things more difficult. These days a minimum of a HS degree is becoming more and more standard for employment. "
GED was "good enough" for me. Im in college right now (classes restart on the 5th!)
If you mean getting NO education... GED and/or college, then well Id agree thats risky because a lot of people wont take you seriously and it might be hard to find jobs. But I definitely will agree that highschool is in need of fixing, becuase its full of crap right now.We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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That's exactly what i mean. No schooling is a bad thing. But again we are all entitled to our own opinions. Right? Right.
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Anon~
I stated that I don't put much value on labels. I never said that I didn't believe in treatment. She is under the constant care of a very good psychologist (weekly) who specializes in BPD. In addition she sees a psychiatrist to tweak meds about once a month.
With that said however, just as a diabetic has to learn to compensate for their illness, so does one who has a mental illness. She can't hide behind it and use it to excuse her behavior. It certainly might explain some of her skewed thinking processes, but lets face it, the real world isn't really going to care that she has a DX. My ultimate goal is to prepare her to be able to survive outside in the real world on her own two feet.
BTW ... she opted to come home last night. She said she feels "we can work things out". I'm hoping that is a good sign. Holding my breath that we can have some productive talks today.
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Truth Searcher,
I'm glad to hear your daughter has returned home! I was also relieved to read that she is in treatment with a therapist & a doctor. Has she been with them long?
You say that your daughter has to learn to compensate for her illness (just as a diabetic would) and that she can't use her dx as an excuse for her behavior. Well, I agree that it's not an "excuse" for her to go around doing whatever she wants to ... but, a lot of her behavior is understandable (and even somewhat expected!) in the context of her having BPD. Because she has this disorder, she isn't going to match up to the "cookie cutter" image of a 17 year old girl-next-door. She has far more to overcome than most girls her age.
As far as her having to learn to compensate... are you sure she is ready for that? Has she learned to understand her dx? Has she explored and researched her dx? Does she have unanswered questions or unexplained ideas about how this affects her, her self-image and her life? I think you're correct in predicting that at some point in her life she is going to have to learn how to compensate for BPD but she's only 17! Perhaps she is not "there yet"?
When you write things like the Topic Title: "Daughter is out of control again..." it sounds like you are your daughter's victim. It also implies that your expectations of her are unreasonable...it's important to add that her dx not be considered a moral or ethical stand on her part. She is struggling and not because she wants to.
I know I don't know you personally and to me it seems as if your heart is in the right place and your intentions are good...Someone in another post early on in this thread mentioned that your daughter might benefit from a more structured day to day routine. Is that a possibility for you? Have you discussed this sort of thing with her careproviders? What do they think about her recent behavior (leaving home, PJ's all day, dropping out of school and whatnot)?
I guess what I really wanted to say here is that I know it's not easy for you as a mom to parent a teen with BPD. I know from experience that it is extremely difficult. I also know what can happen if you turn to the wrong place for help. A toughlove program/attitude can destroy a child in her situation.
I wish you both all the best.
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On 2006-01-01 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
She even asked about reading other sacred texts ... I'm open to that.
Why in the world would a 17 year old kid have to ask permission to read something? Does she understand, and do you understand, that those various sacred texts are usually availble to anybody with a library card (or even without one if you don't take the books out) at the public library? That it's sort of a point of pride among most Americans that anybody can read anything they choose, even write anything they choose?
I'm sorry if this sounds mean or antagonistic to you. It's not my intent. I honestly find that statement alarming. And, honest to God, it suggests (doesn't prove, but suggests) a level of control and repression that might well explain her distress.
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being of His Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Ok, really, please don't take me the harshest way. I really don't mean it. But, well, you asked and I think I can offer some valuable viewpoints, having been down similar dark and scary byways myself; both as the kid and as the mom.
On 2006-01-01 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
And your right ... I'm emotionally wrapped up. This has been a struggle for this kid for almost 8 fucking (pardon my French yes?)years. I feel like a totally ineffective parent. I love my child. You know what I mean ... you're a mom.
Yes! And of course, at this point in the game, you ARE totally ineffective as a parent. 17yo people don't need parenting in the same way children do. Don't think for a moment that you're really unimportant to your child. You'll always be the only mom she ever had and who in the world has more influence on anybody than their parents do? Usually, nobody. But it's not your place anymore to direct her like a child. It's her job now. Your primary responsibilities now have to do w/ good cheer leading and just being stable, calm and unflappable.
Her passions? Thats a really good question. She is passionate about dead rockers ...
Wow, dead rockers? There are a lot of good ones. That's really not a bad thing to do, either. Ya know, a kid could put together a live journal or blog or something, hook in some ads and affiliate links and actually turn a buck at it, even in this economy.
She STATES she has no goals.
Eh, people say all sorts of things.
Go easy on me Antigen ... I'm a broken hearted mom who just loves her kid.
I know, I know. And I guess I'm just not very good at being gentle and reassuring. I'm not angry, ya know, right? I'm just answering the questions you're asking as directly and honestly as I know how. And of course, you're extremely worked up over the topic while I'm not at all. But come on now, you asked "What do I do" and I'm answering that. It's not an accusation or blame or guilt trip. Just... well, solicited advice. Please don't take it the wrong way.
Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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On 2006-01-01 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
I'm sure there is more that I'm not thinking of right now.
Yes!!! And I laughed my ever lovin' ass off last night watching Chuck Long in prison stripes doin' the bunny hop. :rofl: Did anybody tape that? I mean, 6 years is nowhere near enough. Evidently one of the jurors was one of his followers. But it's SOMEthing. Better than NOthing. I'd far rather see Virgil Newton play that scene. But I think it's safe to say we're seeing some progress here.
Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
-- ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.
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On 2006-01-02 04:39:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
GED was "good enough" for me. Im in college right now (classes restart on the 5th!)
Congrats and good luck, Niles! Does this mean you're going to start making my head hurt w/ incomprehensibly complex math theory again instead of car talk? LOL
A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
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On 2006-01-02 11:12:00, Antigen wrote:
Did anybody tape that?
I hope so. I had family over last night and missed it. A lot of times they re-run Dateline shows on MSNBC though. They did that with the online predators show.It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
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Ok, I wanted to read the rest of the thread and make a more thoughtful answer to the question about who/what to believe.
I can't address or control how others view the content here or how they respond. I'm talkin' just me here, what I think, how I sort it out or not.
Please don't take it personally that I don't take your word 100% about your daughter's troubles. And I didn't even really speak accurately that I'm not sure the kid is troubled. I know she's been through a program (I mean, unless you're litterally making the whole thing up out of whole cloth, and that seems very unlikely... remotely possible, but... come on now) I know you, her mother, bought into that. I retain some doubt about the BPD dx. Frankly, I hear that term about as often now as we used to hear about all the masses of dyslexic kids (i.e. any kid who ever switched their b's and d's when learning how to write)
So yeah, that alone and a few other details strongly suggest adequate explanation for the girl being distressed. It may very well NOT be an inherent dysfunction in her. It may just as easily (maybe more) be situational. I'm also pleased (as pleased I can be about the fortunes of a couple of relative strangers) that you and she both want to work this out.
And, now this is just my opinion. I do NOT think you're the worst mother ever. Honestly, as program parents go, I've seen you hanging around here, seeking opposing viewpoints, entertaining notions you were probably not strictly encouraged by the Program to entertain. And now that the Program's done and things are... well, not as wonderful as you may have hoped, you're actively seeking advice from people who have been right where you are. Moreover, you're not blindly following anybody at all, but keeping your own council.
Good Mom! I mean that. You KNOW I don't go around blowing sunshine up people's skirts. I mean that sincerely.
But about what to believe. I know a couple of brothers who fight all the time. Hell, the whole family fights all the damned time. So if one of these kids comes to me and says something about a deal on tires or where to get the best fish sandwich, I'll believe him. If the conversation starts out with "My brother...." I know that, if I want to be kind to this kid and lend an ear, I'm in for a long line of bullshit.
It just depends. But I honestly DON't believe everything bad and nothing good, even about these programs. When I fist started down this rabbit hole, the first place to come to my attention was SAFE Inc. I'd read some material, some by parents who had pulled or were trying to regain custody of their kids. I talked to a couple of them on the phone. I checked as much as I could of their stories and whatever public records I could easily find. I was impressed enough to plan a protest, put together the text for flyers, budget the cost of materials, gas and all that, pull together a group of people who might be interested in participating and then I waited.
See, I didn't really believe it. I been took for a fool before and I wasn't into making the same mistake twice. At the time, there had been an investigative reporter from a Miami tv station promising an earth shaking bombshell of a report. I wasn't sure that would happen. I remember when 60 Minutes did their thing on Straight. I was not impressed. So I waited and I waited, then the 2000 Florida Election scandal broke, and I was just sure I'd be spending that cash on something other than gas and printing. But they ran the story anyway.
Here it is:
28 DAZE http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/wami.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/wami.ram)
This news segment by Alan Cohn of The Times (WAMI Miami) on SAFE, Orlando (a Straight spin off) aired just after the 2000 election, in spite of competing headlines. We're ever grateful to Mr. Cohn and WAMI for doing such a good job of exposing this outfit and for allowing us to distribute recordings. (better copies are available in AVI file format or on Video)
I was extremely impressed. I made a recording, got permission from Alan Cohn to put it on CD and went into production w/ all the propaganda. Around 20 other people who had been in Straight or the Seed in locations from St. Pete to Cincinatti to Virginia were also impressed enough to show up for that protest.
It just depends, ya know? I don't have a hard and fast, secret patented formula for devining the truth in every situation. Sure wish I did, but then we should always be careful what we wish for.
Now, all that and I still haven't really said much. This is a difficult question, isn't it?
I wouldn't take any single fact from any post on this forum as absolutely objective, certain truth. But taken all together in the context of what else I know, what others have to say on the topic, who the speakers are and how much sense the story makes, well then you can get a fairly decent idea of how the land lays.
The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.
--Ferdinand Magellan, Portuguese and Spanish explorer
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Oh, one other thing. Anonymous speech, here or anywhere, is also important and valid. You take it somewhat differently when you don't know the speaker and can't put their current words in the context of what they've said before. But it's still valuable; especially to people who have something valuable to loose by saying what they've got to say and attaching their name.
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
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Hi, I'm sorry to read about your daughter. I just wanted to comment that I have experience with the "reform-school" issue. Specifically, Christian-type ministry schools and reform camps. My experience has been that they can truly be damaging. It's not a very regulated industry. The school I know of specifically is licensed by the state, but the state is primarily looking at if the school conforms with the state's academic standards. What is not regulated are the discipline techniques, "counseling" (which I've experienced as more damaging than helpful), and emotional living conditions.
I think for a young person going through tough times and acting out - the last thing they need is for religion to be shoved down their throat. God gives us free will and free will to choose Him. We parents are to help guide - not force our children to the Lord. Our own actions, lifestyle, behavior is often the most revealing to our children.
Anyway, I think the schools that have a strict religious dogma combined with very difficult disciplinary measures can be very unfair to a troubled kid who's acting out. Some of the disciplinary measures I've seen have been downright humiliating. PLEASE, any parent considering this type of "treatment" for your child - please pray with an open heart. Please look at both sides. Be like the Bereans and study everything.
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On 2005-12-29 07:45:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"I used to lurk around here some time ago. Yes, I was an advocate of "programs". We really thought she had turned the corner in terms of destructive behaviors post program.
She has been home for 6 months, and we are pretty much back to square one.
I have really changed my thinking about the efficacy of these places. It would be very interesting to know the recidivism rate of kids who attend long term residential placements.
So, I'll be lurking once again. Mostly to gain insight into the hearts and minds of troubled kids. Maybe if I can understand her ... I can somehow help her. And then again, maybe she is the only one who can help her ... "
75% recidivism rate according to government studies. It's the same efficacy as the penal system, 25% success rate.
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:wave:
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Guess you're in dire need of some attention counselor? Do you have any actual words you'd like to say?
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How many more credits does your daughter need to graduate?
I stopped attending school in 12th grade, and I only needed 2 more classes (English and government).
Then I heard about a school that lets you earn your credits from home- for about $350 per class, or something. I don't remember the exact cost, but my mother with me to meet the school principal.
We got a tutor, and my best friend and I would go see her once a week, and with a minimal amount of work, (we hardly did any work at all, really), we finished the 2 classes in about 3 months, and "graduated" with a regular, Fairfax County Public School diploma.
I never took SATs, and went to community college on and off for the next 3 years. Then I transferred to a private university, and went to their nursing school, and now I'm a RN. I could have done all that with a GED, as well, but I'm glad I got a regular diploma.
Check with the local alternative school, see if your daughter can get her credits at home. It's really easy...surely she must understand the importance of having some sort of high school diploma. She can't really believe that there is "no use" for high school.
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On 2006-01-02 05:46:00, Truth Searcher wrote:
"Anon~
I stated that I don't put much value on labels. I never said that I didn't believe in treatment. She is under the constant care of a very good psychologist (weekly) who specializes in BPD. In addition she sees a psychiatrist to tweak meds about once a month.
With that said however, just as a diabetic has to learn to compensate for their illness, so does one who has a mental illness. She can't hide behind it and use it to excuse her behavior. It certainly might explain some of her skewed thinking processes, but lets face it, the real world isn't really going to care that she has a DX. My ultimate goal is to prepare her to be able to survive outside in the real world on her own two feet.
BTW ... she opted to come home last night. She said she feels "we can work things out". I'm hoping that is a good sign. Holding my breath that we can have some productive talks today.
"
You know, right now I'm working with a teen who is a cutter, the opposite of promiscuous, has been in hospital, and is having a number of problems that I don't want to go all the way into even if I don't name her, because of her privacy.
Some of the subjects she needs to complete the education of high school are things her parents either didn't take or don't remember, so I tutor her. And I like her and am a friend.
I have a major mental illness, so does my young daughter. This girl has a DX, and her doc says she can't go to school--because the stress would set off the cutting and stuff real badly.
People with mental illnesses get by by taking our meds, seeing our docs, and avoiding situations where we would be likely to do something bad when we're feeling unstable.
That avoidance is a huge part of compensating, and caregivers have to give the mentally ill person that option----of retreating from situations where they feel they're at risk of not being able to control their behavior.
Too often, caregivers want "compensating" for the illness to mean functioning just like someone who isn't mentally ill. That's not realistic. Those of us with mental illnesses have to do things like choosing careers and jobs where the things we can't do or our other quirks don't really hack off the boss or keep us from doing that job. If, for example, someone has executive function problems and can't keep track of time, that person has to pick a career where they can find a job where punctuality just doesn't matter.
Caregivers, particularly loving family members who desperately want the ill person to get well or do as well as possible, usually err on the side of having standards that are too high. They tend to mistake rational avoidance of situations that would put the ill person at risk of behaving badly in public as "using the disability as an excuse."
It isn't.
Watch the TV show "Monk"---it's very accurate about the kinds of adjustments and accommodations someone with OCD has to make to work and function in daily life. When it shows his brother, Ambrose, it's very accurate about the kinds of adjustments a man with agoraphobia has to make to function. Ambrose may not leave the house, which is sad, but he has a job, he pays his bills, he orders his groceries from someplace that delivers. For the disability he's got, he's coping and living his life.
Unfortunately, the medicines for the other mental illness symptoms just don't affect hyper libido. I understand that's one of your concerns and you're a very religious person, but I'd like to very respectfully suggest that *until* better medications can help your daughter more, you may want to emphasize that your daughter take precautions against STDs and seek longer-term partners to minimize the number of different partners (if possible). Keep in mind that your daughter isn't in her right mind and if she really can't control herself, God knows.
It may not seem like an irresistable compulsion from the outside, to you. You desperately want your beloved baby to be well and okay. I know, because I'm a mom and my daughter is ill and it just breaks my heart. She's ten and not sexual yet, but I understand the heartbreak of having your kid get sick with a mental illness---and the helplessness---and the desperate hope.
Try to get her to protect her health right now and let God worry about her soul. Pray for her, and particularly pray that the medical profession comes up with better drugs to help those symptoms, soon.
Pray. Pray a lot. Encourage her to avoid situations where she could get hurt or in trouble with the law. Encourage her to study anything at all she's willing to learn. Encourage her, if she can't meet your religion's criteria for sexual morality, to at least take care of her health.
Pray for medicines that will help those symptoms.
The *good* news is that now that they've got drugs that are so effective with so many of the *other* symptoms, the research establishment is getting a good handle on which symptoms they haven't helped yet and is actively pursuing leads towards developing treatments for those symptoms.
I know how hard it is. I know from my own illness, my daughter's illness, and from tutoring a teen facing some of these challenges.
Try to keep in mind that avoidance is frequently the only healthy compensation available if you have a mental illness. It's not using the disability as an excuse.
Seeing your doc and your therapist (if you need one) and taking your meds is how you make it so you don't have to avoid so many hazardous situations. And how you make it so you don't have so many outbursts that get you in trouble anyway.
Right now, though, there is *nothing* for excess libido and the compulsion to be hypersexual. Be understanding, encourage her to control it as much as she can, and make the safest choices she can.
And keep praying.
Julie
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That is an excellent post Julie.
I may share it with some friends who have mentally ill teens or young adults. You make some important points.
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On 2006-01-01 04:38:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hmmm. Quitting school. Personally I think it's an irrational decision on her part. If it were my daughter and she was under 18 she'd be going to school. If it came down to her not wanting to go past the age of 18 I'd tell her she could do what she wanted. "
Parrigaud, I am tutoring a sixteen year old with a DX (I'm not going to go into the details)--I can see some similarities and differences with the daughter in this thread.
The kid I'm tutoring is also a cutter and her pdoc says she can't go to high school because she just cannot take the stress.
Her parents can't teach her some of the subjects, and she can't teach herself some of them, so I tutor her. We go at her own pace. It may not be perfect, but she is still getting an education.
She also has a truly impressive talent in one of the fine arts and will probably be able to support herself with it, within the limits of her issues.
Her mother is handling the situation super well by getting her medical care, minimizing the stress to minimize the cutting, understanding that not setting off the anxiety and proper mental health care are the priority with her daughter.
She and the stepdad and the daughter are making career plans for her together to maximize her talents and minimize the impact of her weaknesses.
They have buy-in from the daughter partly because they are applying so much compassion and understanding.
They and she understand that they *will* likely have her living at home into her twenties.
Their emphasis is on working *with* their daughter to help her pursue *her* strategies for how to reduce and ultimately stop her cutting, how to get more functional, and how to develop towards being as independent and self-supporting as possible someday.
I think their daughter's willingness to study her schoolwork, and plan the courses she needs to take, and work out the curriculum, and work with me when I tutor her----I think all that comes from the parents making themselves her allies in growing into the kind of woman *she* wants to be.
Where her eccentricities aren't actually hurting anyone, they ignore them. Gently.
Where her problems make more work for them because there's a whole lot she can't do (yet) without getting a panic attack, they cope with the problem and don't force her or yell at her.
Compassion is working. This girl is slowly improving, and gradually becoming more positive and more functional as she builds trust that her parents are working *with* her. She is positive about treatment and therapy and medication---because she trusts her parents to work with her as allies.
This means her parents can keep a close count of problems and symptoms, and express their concerns to the pdoc and therapist. The pdoc and therapist then have a better idea, after talking to the daughter, of what they all need to work on. The pdoc and therapist *also* work as allies with the daughter.
My daughter, because of what she is, can be oppositional. This is what I do---and her therapist says it's the textbook right way to handle it---is I make myself her ally in growing into who she wants to be.
My Katie doesn't have a big picture (at ten) of who she wants to be, but she has little pictures of what would be better than now. When you get right down to it, past the bravado, those little pictures are almost always things parents and teachers and therapists and such can agree are at least small improvements in at least some area of functionality.
You start out making yourself an ally in the small things, and your kid starts opening like a flower---a flower with a lot of problems, still, but a flower---and trusting you to be an ally as she admits the bigger things that she sees as problems she needs to deal with to move in the direction she wants to go.
The self-destruction is usually bravado painted on top of despair. Alliance and compassion is a slow way of making changes, but it's like water wearing river stones smooth. It's slow, but it works.
The quick fix didn't work. Try the slow fix, and adjust your expectations. Really, watch Monk---it shows a high-function person with a mental illness who is coping using necessary accommodations. From my experience of mental illness from the inside, the whole idea of how you compensate and how you cope is very accurate.
Right now, if I were you my short term goal as a parent would be to win back my daughter's trust enough to get her to trust me with *one* thing she'd like to learn to handle better, and make myself her ally in developing for herself a strategy for working on it, and see how you might be supportive as she works on it. See how you might help her on that one thing in ways that *she* feels are help. If the only help she says you can offer is to get out of her way and leave her alone, agree and do it. You have to demonstrate to her that she can trust you to be an ally.
If you can do that, then you can slowly start helping her as much as she can be helped.
Julie
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On 2006-01-03 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
Right now, though, there is *nothing* for excess libido and the compulsion to be hypersexual. Be understanding, encourage her to control it as much as she can, and make the safest choices she can.
Part of presentations for teens on sexual safety and health now often include masturbation. This IS the only safe sex and addresses needs of people who have already opened Pandora's box with sexual activity, finding themselves unable to abstain completely from sexual pleasure.
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Anyway, point is you can't just tell a cutter what they're gonna do or get out. Not if you love them. You have to handle it better than that.
Cutters are at higher risk of suicide---they cut because at the moment they cut, it seems the only alternative to suicide.
If you love them and care if they die or not, then an oppositional do-it-or-get-out strategy is a real bad thing to pick.
Some kids are just obnoxious or criminal. Sometimes we have family members that are mentally ill.
The law allows us, mostly, to just cut our mentally ill relatives loose to end up the homeless, stinky bag lady in the park. Or end up the whore on 16th Street. It's entirely legal to do that.
When a difficult relative is not just a criminal no-good jerk but is instead mentally ill, most of us decide to treat the situation differently.
Mom, I really sympathize. All I can do is tell you how the people I think are doing well with their own or their kids' challenges are pulling it off.
Julie
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The last about why ultimatums are a bad idea was for Perrigaud, not Mom.
Perri, I don't think you're a monster who would just throw a sick relative out on the street or something. That's not what I meant.
Stopping recuing someone means issuing certain ultimatums.
I meant that while stopping rescuing them can help a criminal or delinquent teen, it doesn't work so well with a loved one of any age who is mentally ill.
Most mentally ill people desperately want to be healthy. If not well, at least well enough to fit in and not immediately stand out as weird.
When a mentally ill kid gets in with the wrong crowd, it's because fitting in there is particularly easy----people abusing drugs act a lot like the mentally ill, it gives you the opportunity to self-medicate some of the bad feelings away, and people abusing drugs are real tolerant of a lot of interpersonal differences as long as you aren't the type to moralize at them or narc them out.
That desperate wish to not stand out as weird, to be able to fit in, to be able to make friends, to function----that matters a lot.
A mentally ill person wants to be well--or at least be able to convincingly fake it when they're around people.
So you handle a mentally ill relative not with ultimatums, but by finding out what situations they want to handle better and helping them learn how to do that. They go from wanting very small functional improvements, or big ones in small steps, to making big functional improvements.
At some level, they plateau, when they're compensating as much as they can with their therapist's ongoing help and whatever medicines are currently available for their symptoms.
With her doctor's permission, you might want to start her taking some additional supplements, if she will. Ginko Biloba, Grape Seed Extract--both have a general "neuroprotective" effect. Also get her to take fish oil if you can. It helps with a whole lot of mental illnesses because most people don't get enough Omega-3 oils in their diet, and that dietary lack has bad effects on the brain.
We used to think that nerves and the brain didn't heal much at all. Now we know they do, they just heal very slowly. Just like in the rest of your body, oxidation causes damage to cells. In most of your body, you don't really notice much because the other parts of your body heal faster than your brain. With the brain, it's easier for the damage to outpace the healing and, well, make you have mental health problems.
(Part of the reason lithium works for bipolars is because it has a neuroprotective effect.
Strong antioxidants protect the brain from further damage. Not necessarily completely, but enough that some things start healing back and improving. So while these supplements aren't a substitute for her meds, *with her doctor's knowledge and approval*, they *may* help your daughter.
My doctor knows and approves of my taking fish oil and ginko biloba. He also warned me that they're blood thinners and to be careful with aspirin or ibuprofen.
Some supplements you can't take with some meds. Some have things the doctor may want to caution you about. If you aren't already adding the supplements, you may get some additional help from them.
The ginko and fish oil help my executive function problems--which are one of the things the regular meds won't touch much. Maybe their across the board kind of help will help your daughter a bit with the symptoms her current meds aren't doing the job on. It probably won't *fix* them, but it might improve them.
Julie
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On 2006-01-03 15:05:00, bandit1978 wrote:
I could have done all that with a GED, as well, but I'm glad I got a regular diploma.
What's the difference?It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
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On 2006-01-03 17:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
If, for example, someone has executive function problems and can't keep track of time, that person has to pick a career where they can find a job where punctuality just doesn't matter.
Boy, that explains a whole lot about recent political and corporate scandals, doesn't it?The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
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Ginger,
Well, as I said, I do not believe it would have made a difference in my college career, but I could be wrong. I was admitted as a transfer student to a university for which I did not have the required GPA, and I had a few very poor grades (as a result of signing up for classes, then just leaving during the semester, going traveling, but not withdrawing from class). But I give a good interview, had great references, and family alumni. And when I started in the nursing program, I was a bit older (22?), and took things more seriously. I had aquired lots of random credits during my time at community college, so most of my pre-requisites were done.
I do feel there would be a difference is in my confidence level- I feel better about having a "real" diploma, rather than a GED. Also, it looks better on my job applications. My job requires a college degree, so it looks better that I "graduated" from high school, rather than getting a GED.
My point is that getting a GED doesn't have to mean the end of one's education. Some people just need a break, or may not be ready for a serious college career (I certainly wasn't).
But for a kid who only needs a few more high school credits to graduate...go for the home study. It's not hard at all. You can sleep late, not have to deal with all those "authority" figures who run the public school. I think you'll feel better about it in the long run.
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K, thanks.
It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples
--Charles Dickens
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:grin:
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On 2006-01-06 12:04:00, exsafecounselor wrote:
" :grin:
"
What is it that you want? You keep posting random smilies in random threads? Got something to say or are you just that lonely and desperately in need of some attention?
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Why do you even worry about some random smiley face. If anything you are the loner/loser.
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G- why so sensitive about GED? Do you have one?
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Hi, Truth Searcher:
Just wondered how you and your daughter were doing?
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On 2006-01-08 09:56:00, bandit1978 wrote:
"G- why so sensitive about GED? Do you have one?"
Sensitive? Not really. But interested. Yes, I have a GED. Never used it, no one's ever asked to see it or, to the best of my knowledge, verified it.
But I have kids. One's already got her GED and another two coming up behind her. The next in line is going the local highschool route for many reasons other than the prestiege conveyed by a regular diploma. At some point, I would imagine she'll have to wonder how much that's really worth as a factor in her overall plan. So far as I can tell, there's very, very little difference between a GED and a regular diploma; nothing you can't remedy w/ a couple of relatively light courses at the nearest community college. But I'm always looking for more info.
So I just wanted to know if, aside from the trophy value (which is not to be understated!), have you found some real advantage to it.
Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
been able to determine that for themselves,
albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
individuals did not wish to break the law but
they had no choice.
--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee
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OK Einstiens, here is a person that went through te "programs", has entered the real world, and is living a happy content life clean and sober. I did not take effect immediately but the information given to me in the rehabilitation centers of our great country (I attended 3 long term before age 21) was what I needed to get my life straight. I was an extreme case of rebelion meets ignorance and it all finally caught up with me. Facing prison time and homelessness I finally made the decision for myself at 26 to use the information I was given so many years before. Information I knew was correct but afraid to try utilizing in my life.
Here's a novel idea, STOP blaming everyone for your poor pathetic life and get on with it. Take personal responsibility for your BAD decisions and start making GOOD ones. Be responsible and accountabe for YOURSELF.
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afraid to try utilizing in my life.>>>>
What does that mean?
Might the 'real world' consequences of not working and violating the law, have had anything to do with your revelation?
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On 2006-01-13 12:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Take personal responsibility for your BAD decisions and start making GOOD ones. Be responsible and accountabe for YOURSELF."
Why do program supporters always advocate taking personal responsibility for "bad" decisions, but giving the program the credit for any "good" decisions?
_________________
It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed...bred for its skills in magic.[ This Message was edited by: The Liger on 2006-01-13 12:48 ]
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On 2006-01-13 12:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a novel idea, STOP blaming everyone for your poor pathetic life and get on with it. Take personal responsibility for your BAD decisions and start making GOOD ones. Be responsible and accountabe for YOURSELF."
You're assuming way too much here. Where do you get off saying that we've got 'poor, pathetic lives? Most of us have are relatively happy in our lives outside of these forums. We come here to get a better understanding, shoot the shit, whatever. There are hundreds of people here. All with different reasons for being here. Some just hang around for some of the humor generatedher. I blame the program for scrambling my mind. I blame them for the continuing sense of sell doubt, I blame them for tearing my family apart...which continues to this day. I credit myself, my husband, my kids and my friends, many whom I've met here, for whatever success I have achieved. The time in my program warped my perception of life. Someone described it in the "Chanting" thread in the Straight forum. It's like if you're pouring concrete and someone fucks with the mix before it gets poured. We're left to deal with the aftermath. We're doing that in the best way we can. Pretty much the only time I think about it or deal with it is when I come here. I've made some awesome friends here, I've learned more than I cared to.
btw. I have two friends who have been to prison (one for 5 1/2 years in Raiford) and have been homeless. Both that said that they would by FAR choose prison or homelessnes over being in a mindrape mill again. If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the
government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.
--President Bill Clinton
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Facing prison time and homelessness I finally made the decision for myself at 26 to use the information I was given so many years before. Information I knew was correct but afraid to try utilizing in my life.
Uhh... that wasnt the program. That was you choosing to grow up. You didnt need a program to tell you to "cut the shit, get a job, et cetera" do you? Nobody does.
Face it, the methods of a program are not required or necessary to tell someone to shut up, get a job, and not be a moron.
All the other personal attack bullshit in your post is typical programmie bullshit... everyone, dont even recognize that they said it, its stupid to go in circles about bullshit they do to try to instigate arguements and change the topic.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
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On 2006-01-13 13:45:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Facing prison time and homelessness I finally made the decision for myself at 26 to use the information I was given so many years before. Information I knew was correct but afraid to try utilizing in my life.
Uhh... that wasnt the program. That was you choosing to grow up. You didnt need a program to tell you to "cut the shit, get a job, et cetera" do you? Nobody does.
Face it, the methods of a program are not required or necessary to tell someone to shut up, get a job, and not be a moron.
All the other personal attack bullshit in your post is typical programmie bullshit... everyone, dont even recognize that they said it, its stupid to go in circles about bullshit they do to try to instigate arguements and change the topic.The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
"
Every event in your life, people you meet shapes you and affects who you are today.
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Found this interesting on the topic of GED:
http://www.cete.org/acve/docgen.asp?tbl=mr&ID=100 (http://www.cete.org/acve/docgen.asp?tbl=mr&ID=100)
Seems there may be some bias against GED holders vs high school diploma holders. Even the military limits the number of recruits with GEDs to 10 percent (and yeah yeah, save the comments. Just pointing out that a major "employer" is using this as a limiting factor)