Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

If you force a child into a program and he embraces many of the new lifestyles, education, reading and after being exposed to it for a long period of time he may learn to enjoy it and adopt it into his own routine.

This would be considered change..  initially forced (compliant) and then finally accepted.



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Now you're playing games MR. Reuben, without addressing the questions being put to you.
It seems to be your MO.

Mr. Reuben - I'll ask my question again, based in part  on YOUR OWN WORDS:
 
How does someone "accept" or "embrace" new lifestyles, education (I presume this means IDEAS), and routines without CHOOSING to do so?

Quote from: "Son Of Serbia"

Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change.  Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.

None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only.  A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place.  Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary).  Big difference there - Whooter.

Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter.  All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.

This is just a discussion Serb, no need to get upset and start taking shots at me.  You made some good points.

Change is when the person embraces something new and takes it on to be their own.
Compliance is when the person is doing what he/she is told but doesn’t believe in it.  They do because they are forced.  But over time the person may see that what they have been forced to do is a better way to live… i.e.  make their bed in the morning, see a therapist, eating healthy meals, reading, going to school, wearing appropriate clothing. Dealing with anger in non aggressive ways  etc.  etc.

If like you said the child just resists and justs goes through the motions then they are just merely complying and as soon as the pressure is off they will go back to their old ways.  Like in your example where the child doesn’t connect with their therapist and hates him/her.

So you made some good points, Serbia,  where we can differentiate between change and compliance.
So if a child is forced to see a therapist and starts liking their therapist and starts to look forward to going each week and benefits from it then that is real change.  If a child forced to go to school and eventually looks forward to school or starts picking the healthier food choices on their own than that is change.
If on the other hand the child just goes through the motions so that they can make everyone happy then that is compliance and the child hasn’t learned anything.

So you can see that people can be forced to change in a non abusive manner.



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Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth?  Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.

Back to our "discussion" regarding change.  If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE.  How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so?  The answer is - you can't!

So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves.   We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.

A couple of other examples:

A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will.  They may be forced to read.  Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.

Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.



...

 ::deadhorse::

Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change.  Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.

None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only.  A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place.  Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary).  Big difference there - Whooter.

Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter.  All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.

I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.

Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II.  It takes a lot more patience than people realize.

And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.

Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Yes, that position works well for your side of the argument;" If I didn't see it, it must not have happened. "  But the root philosophy of these places is so similar throughout this industry that I tend to believe the countless reports of abuse that come out of these places on a regular basis. No, I never had to lie on the floor for three days, but I believe the accounts of those who said they did.  And my program did not have minimum wage goons either, we had unpaid goons, other "residents".

 If I didn't see it, it must not have happened.

Now this was not my point at all.

My point is, we have people speaking of abuses that happened, that have no real experience of. Some of you speak matter of factually that the reader is under the impression the poster experienced the abuse. You grab so many different experiences and meld them into one big story. Yet you don't let the readers know this. You can't plagurize several different stories as your own without letting folks know this.
Well, I guess you can but it is not right and doesn't lend itself to integrity.

 :blabla:

DannyB II, if your own spite-filled, nonsensical ramblings have shown us anything - it is that YOU HAVE NO INTEGRITY WHAT-SO-EVER!  I've never plagurized anyone - I don't need to either.  I have plenty of horrible and traumatic memories from CEDU that are the basis for
my views concerning programs.  The fact that my own personal stories of being abused mirror those of survivors from other "programs" such as Straight, Elan, HLA/Ridge Creek, ASR, etcetera... indicate that such abuse is not isolated to a specific program (or individuals working there), but rather this is a systemic problem that affects the entire "troubled teen program" industry.

Danny, if you would kindly remove your head from the inside of your own asshole from time
to time, you'd finally get some fresh air and perhaps a new perspective on things.  Am I asking for too much here?  Seriously Danny, how do you breathe with your head jammed
so far up your ass anyways?

Quote from: "Son Of Serbia"

Quote from: "Shadyacres"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

A lot of us use that term because that's how we felt.....like we were inmates in a prison.

Well for some of us who were in prison and know damn well you never were, it is like a slap in the face. Because you don't know a darn thing about Juvenile Detention Centers, County/Town/City Jails or Prisons.
So please do not refer to yourselves as inmates. Most of you were rich snotty little kids who finally got your butts whipped and want to cry about it now or not.
I'm not judging, I'm just say'in.
Anne there was abuse in the programs on a large scale back in the day but let me tell ya, it was nothing like the peer-pressure you would have received in prison.

Bullshit.  I was never in juvie, or prison, but I have been in a handful of adult rehabs and more county jails than I can remember.  NOTHING came close to that kiddie rehab I was in when I was 15.  The term 'inmate' is entirely appropriate. ' Victim ' would work too.

I agree with you 100% Shadyacres.  I've spent time in both juvie & county jail - I definately
preferred those places over the program I was sent to (CEDU).  Yes it is true that juvie &
county jail are more violent environments than Cedu was.  However, I coped with this by
not talking shit, staying out of other people's business, staying alert at all times, & making
as many friends as possible - and I left these places relatively unscathed.  

Nobody at county jail or juvie tried to brainwash me while depriving me of sleep for 30+ hours straight.  Nobody at juvie/county demanded that I constantly talk about my feelings.  I was never put "bans" from anyone or anything, or restricted from  discussing whatever the hell I wanted to.  Unlike Cedu, in county jail/juvie I could write letters to and/or call whoever the
fuck I wanted to.  Unlike Cedu, in county jail/juvie I could receive visits from anyone & everyone who wanted to come see me.  

In Jail, I wasn't forced to sit thru 15+ hours a week in raps, hearing other inmates talk about all the fucked up shit they did like sticking things up their asses, being molested in by their parents, being raped in foster homes, turning tricks for drugs, fucking their siblings, trying to get head from their dogs, etcetera.  Even better, in jail I didn't have to sit through raps hearing the STAFF talk about molesting 13 year old girls, setting a homeless man on fire, killing someone while drunk driving, or jerking into milk cartons filled with raw chicken livers -all of which happened Cedu.

At least in jail - my thoughts were my own.  I was expected to do my time - but how I felt about it and dealt with it was my own business, and no one elses.  And also my life went on,
sure I was in jail - but that didn't mean I had to be completely isolated from the world, and everone & everything that meant something to me.  Cedu on the other hand - took everything away from me, they completely alienated me from the real world - total isolation!

Furthermore, I went to juvie/county jail because I was arrested for and/or convicted of breaking the law.  At least I was there for a reason, and I received due process before being confined.  Most of the kids being placed in programs aren't ever arrested, charged, or convicted of anything.  They're imprisoned without even a hearing, let alone trial - in other words kids are being confined without it ever being proven that they did anything wrong!
In this respect - programs are no better than concentration camps!  In fact, while at Cedu
I met over a dozen kids who as far as I could tell, were sent there soley they weren't
getting alon with their new step parent!  This is NOT a valid reason for imprisoning someone!

"Inmate", "Prisoner" & "Victim" are all entirely appropriate terms for describing people
stuck in programs.  Also for many people I knew at Cedu, adding the pre-fix "Innocent"
to any of the aforementioned terms would be an appropriate description as well.

 Oh, OK. here is Serbia we will believe it now. Yeah T/C's are worse the prisons and juvie. You really got your embellished spiel down. So long as it works for ya. I can tell ya no body else is really listening parents, kids ect.... your way over the top.
Guys please keep writing because you bolster my opinion/point even more. The audience will read what you have wrote and realize exactly what we have here a bunch immature ex-residents who are still angry.
You folks sound like your romanticizing being the program tuff guys, Yeah throw me in prison, I can do it, no problem, better then here. Attica!!!!!Attica!!!! We Want Attica!!!!
Just saying this Juvie and Prisons are better then programs, makes once again, the readers leave shaking there heads.

Danny, I've given no one here any reason not to believe me.  I have no vested interest in keeping programs open, or shutting them down for that matter.  I don't make any money from it either way.  And by the way - you're a total fucking tool dude, seriously, all jokes aside.  And talk about being immature - you just can't tolerate anyone expressing an opinion that conflicts with your own warped, programmed views.  Not all of us are sheep like you Danny.  Most of us prefer thinking for ourselves - and thats why we find your pathetic rants so amusing.   I'll keep writing by the way, and I'll  keep laughing at you Danny.

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

A lot of us use that term because that's how we felt.....like we were inmates in a prison.

Well for some of us who were in prison and know damn well you never were, it is like a slap in the face. Because you don't know a darn thing about Juvenile Detention Centers, County/Town/City Jails or Prisons.
So please do not refer to yourselves as inmates. Most of you were rich snotty little kids who finally got your butts whipped and want to cry about it now or not.
I'm not judging, I'm just say'in.
Anne there was abuse in the programs on a large scale back in the day but let me tell ya, it was nothing like the peer-pressure you would have received in prison.

Bullshit.  I was never in juvie, or prison, but I have been in a handful of adult rehabs and more county jails than I can remember.  NOTHING came close to that kiddie rehab I was in when I was 15.  The term 'inmate' is entirely appropriate. ' Victim ' would work too.

I agree with you 100% Shadyacres.  I've spent time in both juvie & county jail - I definately
preferred those places over the program I was sent to (CEDU).  Yes it is true that juvie &
county jail are more violent environments than Cedu was.  However, I coped with this by
not talking shit, staying out of other people's business, staying alert at all times, & making
as many friends as possible - and I left these places relatively unscathed.  

Nobody at county jail or juvie tried to brainwash me while depriving me of sleep for 30+ hours straight.  Nobody at juvie/county demanded that I constantly talk about my feelings.  I was never put "bans" from anyone or anything, or restricted from  discussing whatever the hell I wanted to.  Unlike Cedu, in county jail/juvie I could write letters to and/or call whoever the
fuck I wanted to.  Unlike Cedu, in county jail/juvie I could receive visits from anyone & everyone who wanted to come see me.  

In Jail, I wasn't forced to sit thru 15+ hours a week in raps, hearing other inmates talk about all the fucked up shit they did like sticking things up their asses, being molested by their parents, being raped in foster homes, turning tricks for drugs, fucking their siblings, trying to get head from their dogs, etcetera.  Even better, in jail I didn't have to sit through raps hearing the STAFF talk about molesting 13 year old girls, setting a homeless man on fire, killing someone while drunk driving, or jerking off into milk cartons filled with raw chicken livers -all of which happened Cedu.

At least in jail - my thoughts were my own.  I was expected to do my time - but how I felt about it and dealt with it was my own business, and no one elses.  And also my life went on,
sure I was in jail - but that didn't mean I had to be completely isolated from the world, and everyone & everything that meant something to me.  Cedu on the other hand - they took everything away from me, they completely alienated me from the real world - total isolation!

Furthermore, I went to juvie/county jail because I was arrested for and/or convicted of breaking the law.  At least I was there for a reason, and I received due process before being confined.  Most of the kids being placed in programs aren't ever arrested, charged, or convicted of anything.  They're imprisoned without even a hearing, let alone trial - in other words kids are being confined without it ever being proven that they did anything wrong!
In this respect - programs are no better than concentration camps!  In fact, while at Cedu
I met over a dozen kids who as far as I could tell, were sent there soley they weren't
getting along with their new step parent!  This is NOT a valid reason for imprisoning someone!

"Inmate", "Prisoner" & "Victim" are all entirely appropriate terms for describing people
stuck in programs.  Also for many people I knew at Cedu, adding the pre-fix "Innocent"
to any of the aforementioned terms would be an appropriate description as well.