Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: LauraLee on June 12, 2006, 12:18:00 PM
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Okay, so my friend's mother is possibly sending her to wilderness therapy over the summer. She brought it up with me today at school, and I was a little shocked. I want to try to convince her mother NOT to send her (in the most rational and intelligent way possible) without sounding preachy or just trying to keep her daughter at home for the sake of our friendship. That's not the case at all, I'm just disgusted that wilderness therapy would even be considered, knowing my experience and of course, the experiences of others. I'm going to write her mother a letter, but how do you think I should do this?
I would love suggestions/topics to be covered in the letter.
Oh, and let's not start a flame war, okay? I just want to be helped out here. Maturity and open-mindedness will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks =)
LauraLee
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Well the first step in solving any problem is to define the problem. I know, you see the problem as your friend is potentially being sent to a Wilderness program. But one question is ?Why??. Her mother must feel there is a problem, try to find out what specifically the mother feels the problem with her daughter is (acting out, drugs, sex, grades etc.).
Once you have defined the problem you need to convince her mother that Wilderness is not a good solution (as you believe it is not) or provide other solutions which involve not being sent away.
If the problem is drugs, for example, you may try to provide evidence to her mother that wilderness may not be effective for this. People here at fornits can help you with some of the wording.
I would not waste time trying to convince her mother she doesn?t have a problem, initially, because she has already networked with other parents and the problem is real to her. Avoid threats, running away, acting out more etc. this will only make it worse for her. Keep it mature and focus only her choice of solution (Wilderness Program).
Hope this helps and things work out for you and your friend.
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A good ass-whuppin's all they need, I'm TELLIN YA!
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TheWho, get your God damn trolling ass the FUCK out of this thread.
Laura, there are a lot, and I do mean a lot, of sites detailing the abuses. I strongly recommend that your friend's mother have a long Private Message conversation with "michelle sutton memorial fund" right here on this board.
Don't write her a letter. Have a conversation. Phone, chat, whatever. Try to bring your friend and her mother together as much as you can. Remember that wilderness programs are expensive- surely there's SOMETHING they can do together that will save them money.
Get a hold of your friend- like NOW- and encourage him or her to say "Mom, I'm sorry. I'm reallysorry for making you mad. Please don't send me away somewhere."
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TheWho, get your God damn trolling ass the FUCK out of this thread.
Oh, I'm sure that will make him go away...
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::trophy::
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On 2006-06-12 09:18:00, LauraLee wrote:
"Okay, so my friend's mother is possibly sending her to wilderness therapy over the summer. She brought it up with me today at school, and I was a little shocked. I want to try to convince her mother NOT to send her (in the most rational and intelligent way possible) without sounding preachy or just trying to keep her daughter at home for the sake of our friendship. That's not the case at all, I'm just disgusted that wilderness therapy would even be considered, knowing my experience and of course, the experiences of others. I'm going to write her mother a letter, but how do you think I should do this?
I would love suggestions/topics to be covered in the letter.
Oh, and let's not start a flame war, okay? I just want to be helped out here. Maturity and open-mindedness will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks =)
LauraLee"
send her here
http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm)
especially to guidlines
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Hi Mate
I would say that the way you approach this issue depends on a few things. What is your friend going "in" for. A lot of the websites for Wilderness therapy market to a wide variety of parental concerns.
The best thing to do is to come up with some good alternatives. For instance if Mom is worried about "motivation" you could suggest that you and your friend get a part time job over the summer or that she get a tutor and monitor closely your friends grades & help them improve. Make sure that your friend is in on suggesting viable solutions. This way it wont come across as whining which may be percieved as an attitude issue. (another apparent rsn to send your kid to these places)
Also tell the mum specifically what wilderness therapy was supposed to do for you and where it failed. If it was meant to adress mental health issues for example, talk about what worked better and what has helped.
Is there a sympathetic adult that the mum respects as well? go to them with your friend and see what they can do to help. Fact is mom is going to be more likely to respond to anothr adult.
Strongly discourage your friend from crying or whining about it or having a tantrum. This may be seen as manupulation.
Bottom line is you need as many reasonalbe alternatives as possible. So many parents on Struggling teens etc say they feel desperate & have no alternative.
If absolutely nothing non confrontational works, your friend pretty much has 2 choices. She can suck it up, tell herself it is only a few months and try to make as little trouble for herself while she is there as possible or she can try and refuse to go. If she is planning to "run away" just doing so aimlessly wont help @ all, she will need to have a sympathetic adult to run to. This needs to be done before escorts get involved.
Best of Luck
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PS it is probably better to speak to her than write
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Get one of the heavy hitters of this board (TSW, DJ, Deborah, Eudora, MSMF) in contact with the mother. Over the phone.
You do not have a lot of time. The summer has begun.
If she's going to run away there are places to run TO. What state?
"This may be seen as manipulation" - this statement disgusts me to my very core, but the really disturbing thing is that it might be correct.
God damn these programs for what they accuse.
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A lot of this information was covered in detail in this thread http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 7&forum=44 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=15627&forum=44)
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
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[
"This may be seen as manipulation" - this statement disgusts me to my very core, but the really disturbing thing is that it might be correct.
<
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hey i dint say i agree with it. i have just noted that it is a common refrain on the mant websites i have been now seen.
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"Manipulation" is the inevitable result of rendering a human being dependant on the good will of another person. Human being need to exercise control over their environment to a cetain degree in order to even feel safe. If your safety is entirely in the hands of another human being you are invariably going to try to influence that person in a way that benefits you.
Criticising people for doing this is hypocritical in the extreme and only serves to expose the rotten heart that beats in the chest of the "Teen help" industry.
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
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Exactly. i would imagine a bit of "manipulation" is not unhealthy. It is part of learning to negotiate as in:
"mom can i go to a party"
"i dont know didnt this kid have heaps of alcohol there last time"
"yes but her parents will be there so they will be able to prevent it from getting too out of control because her Dad & uncle barry will be staffing the bar"
"Ok but I will pick you up- i dont want you getting a lift with a kid who has six beers under his belt!"
Yah thanks mum!!! :wink:
PS Are american kids allowed to drink alcohol on private property? or is that only an australian thing?
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On 2006-06-12 11:19:00, TheWho wrote:
"Well the first step in solving any problem is to define the problem. I know, you see the problem as your friend is potentially being sent to a Wilderness program. But one question is ?Why??. Her mother must feel there is a problem, try to find out what specifically the mother feels the problem with her daughter is (acting out, drugs, sex, grades etc.).
Once you have defined the problem you need to convince her mother that Wilderness is not a good solution (as you believe it is not) or provide other solutions which involve not being sent away.
If the problem is drugs, for example, you may try to provide evidence to her mother that wilderness may not be effective for this. People here at fornits can help you with some of the wording.
I would not waste time trying to convince her mother she doesn?t have a problem, initially, because she has already networked with other parents and the problem is real to her. Avoid threats, running away, acting out more etc. this will only make it worse for her. Keep it mature and focus only her choice of solution (Wilderness Program).
Hope this helps and things work out for you and your friend.
"
CindyLouWho do you just move from thread to thread dispensing your retarded babbelings and then take off as soon as the group exposes you for how dumb you really are?
Someone needs a hobby I think. Or a job.
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Mind if we just call ya Bruce?
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Exactly, a lot of the stuff that these hellholes call "manipulation" is really perfectly interaction. It's important though to undertand that the "Teenhelp" industry makes a habit of hijacking the terminology of legitimate psychology and twisting it to fit a totally different agenda.
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
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Get one of the heavy hitters of this board (TSW, DJ, Deborah, Eudora, MSMF) in contact with the mother. Over the phone.
I would advise against this. Do not give your friends phone number to anyone. There are some who will try to persuade her by yelling and using foul language if she doesn?t agree with them and this will not help your friend, parents don?t respond well to this type of discussion.
The other advice you have received seems to be good, point her towards some of the web sites/links others here have mentioned, which will give her more information and time to think things thru.
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Yeah, there is no way I'd give our their number to anyone. Just basic internet conduct, haha.
I know for a fact I can't talk to this woman over the phone. She tends to get into shouting matches... I've been the victim of one before.
Thanks for the help so far. I'll see what I can do/ I'll keep you updated.
P.S. - I have absolutley no idea what program they're thinking of, I've been trying to get my friend to find out, but she says her parents haven't been giving up any information other than they're probably sending her to a program.
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On 2006-06-13 05:07:00, RobertBruce wrote:
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Someone needs a hobby I think. Or a job."
Ever occur to you that this may be his/her job?
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No it didn't you dumb nigger.
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On 2006-06-13 06:32:00, TheWho wrote:
" Get one of the heavy hitters of this board (TSW, DJ, Deborah, Eudora, MSMF) in contact with the mother. Over the phone.
I would advise against this. Do not give your friends phone number to anyone. There are some who will try to persuade her by yelling and using foul language if she doesn?t agree with them and this will not help your friend, parents don?t respond well to this type of discussion.
The other advice you have received seems to be good, point her towards some of the web sites/links others here have mentioned, which will give her more information and time to think things thru.
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Who,
I resent the implication. Come clean, which of the people mentioned do you believe would yell and use foul language in order to 'persuade' this mother?
Laura Lee,
Based on what you've said about her mother, it doesn't sound hopeful.
All you can do is present the risks, explain the methods and techniqes, share your personal experience; as matter-of-factly as possible. You might direct her to
63 days http://www.63days.com/ (http://www.63days.com/)
Bacon court document, posted here
Brooke Adams article on Ian August's death posted here
List of deaths in wilderness, etc.
Doesn't sound like this woman is rational, so it's likely to fall on deaf ears.
If that's the case, coach your friend on how to best survive the ordeal. Explain in great detail what she can expect so there aren't any big surprises. Share any tips you learn to make it easier or less stressful. Let her know that you'll be there to listen when she returns. Give her a piece of reality to hold onto during her 'adventure' to the surreal world of wilderness treatment.
I know the frustration. My neighbor sent her son to wilderness after ample warning. He didn't return from that experience. Sometimes there is nothing to do but watch and grieve.
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On 2006-06-13 08:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
On 2006-06-13 05:07:00, RobertBruce wrote:
Someone needs a hobby I think. Or a job."
Ever occur to you that this may be his/her job?"
Oh i get it. You're saying that it could be their job to smear stupid bullshit on this forum. gotcha.
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Who,
I resent the implication. Come clean, which of the people mentioned do you believe would yell and use foul language in order to 'persuade' this mother?
I wasn?t implying anyone specific
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On 2006-06-13 09:18:00, TheWho wrote:
"Who,
I resent the implication. Come clean, which of the people mentioned do you believe would yell and use foul language in order to 'persuade' this mother?
I wasn?t implying anyone specific"
Bullshit.
Stick your head in a hole, we still see you.
You quoted the comment:
"Get one of the heavy hitters of this board (TSW, DJ, Deborah, Eudora, MSMF) in contact with the mother. Over the phone."
And responded:
"I would advise against this. Do not give your friends phone number to anyone. There are some who will try to persuade her by yelling and using foul language if she doesn?t agree with them and this will not help your friend, parents don?t respond well to this type of discussion."
You said "anyone", not anyone other than the 'heavey hitters' mentioned.
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On 2006-06-13 10:35:00, Deborah wrote:
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On 2006-06-13 09:18:00, TheWho wrote:
"Who,
I resent the implication. Come clean, which of the people mentioned do you believe would yell and use foul language in order to 'persuade' this mother?
I wasn?t implying anyone specific"
Bullshit.
Stick your head in a hole, we still see you.
You quoted the comment:
"Get one of the heavy hitters of this board (TSW, DJ, Deborah, Eudora, MSMF) in contact with the mother. Over the phone."
And responded:
"I would advise against this. Do not give your friends phone number to anyone. There are some who will try to persuade her by yelling and using foul language if she doesn?t agree with them and this will not help your friend, parents don?t respond well to this type of discussion."
You said "anyone", not anyone other than the 'heavey hitters' mentioned.
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I stand by that, she should not give her phone number out to anyone. I have seen parents treated badly here if they dont agree with the majority or cant be swayed and the language and beatings can get bad.
No, I am not going to go off and find links for you, you have been here long enough to have seen it too.
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***I stand by that, she should not give her phone number out to anyone. I have seen parents treated badly here if they dont agree with the majority or cant be swayed and the language and beatings can get bad.
And THAT (giving her number to 'anyone') is not what was suggested, was it? It was suggested that she put the 'heavy hitters' in touch with this mother.
If you were in a program that would get you a week or two on restirctions and a writing assignment or two. Even if it were an honest mistake.
FYI, I am not interested in 'persuading' this mother. Based on the littel I know of her, I view it as a waste of time. But, if she were interested in hearing my opinions and experience, I would gladly share them with her.
My experience is that when a parent is determined to dump their kid, there's not much that will change their mind. They will send them hoping that their kid's experience will be the exception, or they won't be the one coming home in a body bag. They will seek out those who will support their decision. And over the years, it has appeared that some just really don't care either way, as long as the kid is out of the house.
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How about getting the mother to read this thread?
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How about getting the mother to read http://www.cindiandtaylor.com (http://www.cindiandtaylor.com) ?
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Well, jeeze, I would have showed her the thread, but yet again a thread has just collapsed to name-calling. I doubt that would do anything, and if at all, it would just sway her even more to sending Anna to WT.
To all those who truly helped: Thank you. I copied down all the websites and will show them to her. I also took into account all your advice. I may even call her within the next couple of days. We shall see, I know I have to act quickly.
Again, thank you so much. =)
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LL,
Since you put this request up on the moderated forum too, it might be good idea for you to let people know what specifically you'd like to see posted there. Opinions? Experiences? Links?
Are you planning to link her to that thread?
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On 2006-06-13 14:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How about getting the mother to read http://www.cindiandtaylor.com (http://www.cindiandtaylor.com) ?"
These program parents are knuckleheads, not experts in adolescent behavioral healthcare.
Send the mother to credible, reliable sources. Not websites with links to referral agencies for God's sake.
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You blind? That site is as anti-program as they get.
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On 2006-06-13 16:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You blind? That site is as anti-program as they get."
Nope, their links say it all,IMO. Compare them to the PURE and CAICA web links. Second, the mother says she only RECENTLY found out about how the troubled teen industry cons parents and hurts teens. That suggests the placement at CSA was fairly recent, not ions ago before all the anti-wwasps websites popped up (including PURE which has been online for what, 3-4 years?).
The poster who needs help with her friend's mother would be very wise to steer that mother toward the A START research and Help At Any Cost, if she really wants to ensure her friend doesn't end up in a WST program or some other program, neither of which are linked on the PURE website, IIRC, which is very odd considering how impressive both these resources are (A START and HELP AT ANY COST).
LINKS
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
http://www.helpyourteens.com (http://www.helpyourteens.com) (PURE)
http://www.nospank.net (http://www.nospank.net)
http://www.bazelon.org (http://www.bazelon.org)
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com)
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My kid was one of thousands of exceptions and I'm glad I didn't "meet" Deborah before.
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On 2006-06-13 18:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My kid was one of thousands of exceptions and I'm glad I didn't "meet" Deborah before."
(http://http://www.alltravis.net/images/fuck%20you%20pic.jpg)
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Who why are you still here?
All you do is move from thread to thread dispensing wisdom you dont have and offering advice no one wanted, at least from you anyway.
The reason of course being you know nothing about the industry so why would anyone need to discuss the matter with you?
In any event you do this until you are proven wrong on any number of issues and then you scamper off.
Really whats the point?
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On 2006-06-13 18:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My kid was one of thousands of exceptions and I'm glad I didn't "meet" Deborah before."
According to you. I wonder what your kid would say after being out for five years, if you weren't there, and if there was no chance of what he said getting back to you.
If your kid really is okay, then congratulations. When you spun the chamber and dropped the hammer, you got lucky.
You'll have to forgive us if we don't take that as a good reason to play Russian roulette with our kids' lives and mental health.
Julie
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Burying your head in the sand won't help either. There is a happy medium out there somewhere. By the way, Julie, the suicide symbolism is offensive and I only hope in your perfect world you'll never have to deal with losing a child to Russian Roulette. Try a positive approach (without senseless arrogance)and maybe you won't be despised so much. I'm amazed at what I'm seeing here. You and Dysfunction are everything I was told you would be.
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Which is more important telling the truth about these places and being despised by the corrupt and naive or denying the truth and being beloved by people who dont matter?
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Truth??? Give me a break. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
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On 2006-06-16 13:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Burying your head in the sand won't help either. There is a happy medium out there somewhere. By the way, Julie, the suicide symbolism is offensive and I only hope in your perfect world you'll never have to deal with losing a child to Russian Roulette. Try a positive approach (without senseless arrogance)and maybe you won't be despised so much. I'm amazed at what I'm seeing here. You and Dysfunction are everything I was told you would be."
you are the most senselessly arrogant poster i've seen in a long time. you should take a look at yourself. what makes you so high and mighty? you seem like a run-of-the-mill moron to me, but there you are acting so superior. how about shutting your arrogant pie-hole for a while?
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On 2006-06-17 15:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Truth??? Give me a break. The truth lies somewhere in the middle."
How can you be so sure? I certianly havent lied about my experiences.
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The Truth is a absolute and will lie where ever it damn pleases. The truth can be radically on one side or radically on the other side. The truth does not say " Well this guy has some good points, and so does this guy, so I think I will meet them in the middle" The truth , is the truth, simple as that.
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On 2006-06-16 13:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Burying your head in the sand won't help either. There is a happy medium out there somewhere. By the way, Julie, the suicide symbolism is offensive and I only hope in your perfect world you'll never have to deal with losing a child to Russian Roulette. Try a positive approach (without senseless arrogance)and maybe you won't be despised so much. I'm amazed at what I'm seeing here. You and Dysfunction are everything I was told you would be."
Be offended all you like. I've had as close a brush with suicide as anyone living can. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
People who do horrible things usually point to something someone else is doing, or the other misdeeds and bad acts in the world, as their justification.
You have no idea how often I've heard, "But look what he did!"
It's an imperfect world. As an example, the people in the Soviet gulags suffered and died with no white knight ever riding to their rescue. Stalin's gulags were what Hitler based his concentration camps on in the first place.
Horrible wrongs happen in this world, wrongs nobody manages to stop, despite a whole lot of people's best efforts.
Good people die alone, and broken, in the dark. Monstrous dictators die in bed, of old age, in luxury.
The world is a cold, hard, dangerous place.
Being a responsible adult means knowing that, and while fully knowing, doing one's best to protect children from that ugly truth until they're grown and able to take on the burden themselves.
Being a responsible adult means knowing there will be many horrible things you cannot stop, and doing your best anyway, knowing that many times your best just won't be enough.
These private prisons for kids are a monstrous thing. My best efforts, combined with those of others, may never be enough to get them shut down in the US, and to make it a felony for American parents to ship their kids to a private prison outside of the US.
That doesn't relieve me or anyone else of the responsibility to do our best to put a stop to these places.
The world is frequently cold and cruel. Every single one of us is a very imperfect person. The other evils in the world don't make it okay for you to do evil things, or to look the other way while others do. And they don't make it okay for us to look the other way, either.
These places do permanent damage to the minds of children. I know one of the children it happened to. That's enough reason for me.
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"teen help" programs have actually helped many people. It's not all such bullshit. I know there are flaws but the industry isn't "out to get" the teen population and make them suffer as many of you think it is. So laura, you are not your friend's mother. Stop trying to meddle in her affairs.