Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: enola on December 04, 2009, 12:24:15 PM
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This is pasted from Bill Hoffman's notes on Facebook. Though the only ones who have access to it are his Facebook "friends", I am surprised that only a few comments out of 62 were calls for more accountability. I also made a comment, but Bill erased it the next day, as well as edited a few words in the entry. Bill was an ok guy compared to others, and I believe he has a touch of guilt for the way those of us from the "dark ages" of MBA were treated, yet he has also posted some very low blows and attacks on some of the Facebook boards, which I may post later.
"What MBA Kids From The Past Need To Know About MBA Today."
Saturday, April 11, 2009 at 11:06pm
We are no longer the old Mount Bachelor Academy you think of from the past.
Mount Bachelor Academy staff are not only loving people who enjoy working with kids either. Qualifications to be a Mentor now takes a Master's degree. Our Executive Director, Program Director, Clinical On-Site Coordinator and about half of our Mentors are Mastered Leveled Therapists.
"We have come far since the dark ages" What began in 1988 as "a mom and pop business" without regulation or degreed people has transformed in the 21st century with oversight, credentialed teachers, qualified professional staff trained in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, skill building from Dialectical Behavioral Training, Adoption Clinical Training, etc.
We are licensed by the State of Oregon, we are accredited by the Northwest Association of Accredited Schools and Pacific Northwest Association of Independent Schools.
We have a full-time Chemical and Dependency Counselor as well to provide quality drug and alcohol focused therapies.
Our group therapy sessions are no longer profanity laced yelling sessions. We actually have grown away from that mode. We offer special-themed groups including workshops in issues of Adoption, Grief and Loss, Mastery and Control, Sexual Abuse, NA/AA, etc.
As far as my degree, I have a Bachelor's of Arts with 30 years of experience in working with youth and families. As the Residential Director, I have oversight of the daily living of our students, dorm life, providing recreational activities at night, on weekends, and for special events: Summer Olympics, Community Service projects, etc.
Regarding Lifesteps: students, by law, are given 6 hours of sleep. Food always has been healthy and plentiful. Fresh fruit, veggie platters, PBJ and meat and cheese sandwiches, juice, etc.
Do kids receive work projects for misbehavior? Yes, but this is not "Holes" folks, kids are out for a few hours if need be, to give back or think about their poor behavior(s) demonstrated in the community. We still hold kids to being responsible towards keeping rules. Work projects are meaningful and are often based on metaphors.
Kids do not sit facing a wall, kids who have writing assignments, book reading on self studies are done in the evening down in our Library with staff supervision.
By the way, the kids we take at MBA are products of overindulgence, under supervised, from dysfunctional families, have poor or low self esteem issues, have issues related to adoption, were labled or felt like perceived failures in school, many of our kids are ADD/ADHD. Not all kids as I wrote wwere close to death, although some were getting cclose to the edge. Many of our kids abused drugs or alcohol, made poor choices, etc.
I have nothing but pride in the good work we do everyday.
***I made the following comment, which was not only unanswered, but deleted the next day***
November 30 at 5:35 pm
'I know I’m late to the party, but I just read this for the first time today, and I have a few comments to make.
“Kids do not sit facing a wall, kids who have writing assignments, book reading on self studies are done in the evening down in our Library with staff supervision.”
That is a very good thing. However, you, in fact, ran my self-study when you first arrived at MBA, and you had me sitting in that small desk, facing the wall, not letting me get up until someone “escorted” me to the bathroom, and making me dig a ditch for 8 hours a day, then continue the work day by filling it up. I did that for 3 months, w/o going to class. So do those of us who did endure that get some kind of apology or at least acknowledgment of abuse?
“Regarding Lifesteps: students, by law, are given 6 hours of sleep. Food always has been healthy and plentiful. Fresh fruit, veggie platters, PBJ and meat and cheese sandwiches, juice, etc.”
It’s really nice that you guys decided to finally abide by the law. But, as you know, in the ‘dark ages’ of MBA, we had about 2-3 hours sleep, and ate crackers and water.
“Our group therapy sessions are no longer profanity laced yelling sessions. We actually have grown away from that mode.”
I’m honestly glad. In my era, there was constant yelling, screaming, name-calling, swearing, crying, and very harsh criticism toward most of us (with the exception of the lucky few). For example, I was constantly called a whore, a liar, manipulative, playing victim, etc. By law, that’s abuse.
It really boggles my mind that there is no accountability for the staff’s actions towards the earlier peer groups. Nothing. Accountability and complete honesty is what we were taught; those 2 things were almost literally shoved down our throats, that’s usually what spurred most of the “profanity laced yelling sessions”. Yet there is no accountability, apology, or admission of any wrong doing to those of us who endured that; wrong doing, or, in layman's terms abuse. Some of my peers seem ok with it. I am not.
I just don’t get it… '
So, without a word, message, or any acknowledgment to me, he erased my comment, then erased the words 'no longer' in the sentence about 'profanity-laced yelling sessions'.
The most upsetting aspect of all of this, besides the fact that it has brought up a lot of pain that I never dealt with, is the complete lack of ACCOUNTABILITY by the staff. Accountability, the thing they preached, yelled about, screamed about, and based Lifesteps on. There is known. In fact, there are instead cover-ups and lies. Like I said, I just don't get it. And it makes me very angry, especially for all the crap I endured because of it.
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Time and time again i've heard "we don't do that anymore"... Even from the program I was in. So what did I do? I investigated. I even went down to the program to try to interview people... and what did I discover? Nothing of substance had changed at all. At most they had renamed a few practices. If I were you I would treat such claims from MBA with a grain of salt. I can't even list the number of times i've heard similar claims from a wide variety of programs.
I also find it interesting that this guy claims MBA provides "therapy" given that Aspen Education Group recently argued in a court case that "therapy" is exactly what they do not provide (in order to argue they were not required to comply with the privacy regulations associated). It's amazing how easily will say "therapy" in private when they think nobody is watching and "emotional growth" in public to avoid accountability.
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Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned, and some may say they are doing away with a percieved harmful aspect of the program when in fact they just rename it. So it is best to try to find out what they are doing currently by reading here or contacting the program directly, speaking to families who have been through the program recently.
I looked around and MBA did provide therapy via a licensed Psychologist (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=352758&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe#p352758). The argument that Aspen had in court was with a specific child who didn’t receive therapy ( at another facility). Many of these facilities give parents the option of having their child see a private therapist while the child attends the program which can be separately funded directly by the parents. It is up to each parent to decide what is appropriate for their child and whether or not they want one on one therapy.
So technically any one specific program may not provide therapy through Aspen, so it can be said that Aspen doesn’t provide Therapy for “all“ their programs directly.
But to imply that Aspen as a Corporation does not provide therapy would be an incorrect statement.
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Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned, and some may say they are doing away with a percieved harmful aspect of the program when in fact they just rename it. So it is best to try to find out what they are doing currently by reading here or contacting the program directly, speaking to families who have been through the program recently.
The program itself has every reason to lie and more often than not, almost always, the families themselves have little knoweldge of what actually goes on in the program. Furthermore, the method of contacting families is often (but not always, as some do post here from time to time) only through the program, which can often be fairly selective about which parents they recommend. The only way to find the truth is to speak to a variety of recent graduates by seeking them out, asking for fact rather than opinion, and not by waiting for the program to recommend them. Even then, the truth is often elusive.
I looked around and MBA did provide therapy via a licensed Psychologist (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=352758&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe#p352758). The argument that Aspen had in court was with a specific child who didn’t receive therapy ( at another facility). Many of these facilities give parents the option of having their child see a private therapist while the child attends the program which can be separately funded directly by the parents.
The OP specifically mentioned "group therapy", not individual therapy. It is my understanding that while some programs do provide individual therapy, the group therapy is almost always facilitated by peers and non-qualified staff. Furthermore, most of the individual therapists are essentially subcontractors, as you admit, often paid for directly by the parents and are thus not in the direct employ of the program.
It is up to each parent to decide what is appropriate for their child and whether or not they want one on one therapy.
So technically any one specific program may not provide therapy through Aspen, so it can be said that Aspen doesn’t provide Therapy for “all“ their programs directly.
But to imply that Aspen as a Corporation does not provide therapy would be an incorrect statement.
It depends on your loose definition of "provide". IMO, "permit" would be a more appropriate word. As far as group therapy goes, are you aware of any Aspen facility where the group therapy is facilitated by licensed psychologists or psychotherapists. Most of the time the only qualifications I see are LCSW and so forth... social worker qualifications. Hardly trained or qualified to facilitate any sort of bone-fide group therapy.
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The most upsetting aspect of all of this, besides the fact that it has brought up a lot of pain that I never dealt with, is the complete lack of ACCOUNTABILITY by the staff. Accountability, the thing they preached, yelled about, screamed about, and based Lifesteps on.
It would appear that "accountability" is a somewhat relative term. Kids are held accountable for all kinds of things at programs (sometimes even for things they did not do), but the program staff? The ones that actually do all the preaching about accountability and brother's keeper? Rarely, or, at most, barely.
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The program itself has every reason to lie and more often than not, almost always, the families themselves have little knoweldge of what actually goes on in the program. Furthermore, the method of contacting families is often (but not always, as some do post here from time to time) only through the program, which can often be fairly selective about which parents they recommend. The only way to find the truth is to speak to a variety of recent graduates by seeking them out, asking for fact rather than opinion, and not by waiting for the program to recommend them. Even then, the truth is often elusive.
Parents new to the industry would never be able to contact kids who recently graduated and be able to speak to them one-on-one. Parents of kids who just left a program wouldn’t want their kids focusing on that. Even if they did parents wouldn’t be informed enough about the ins and outs of the industry to know what questions to ask them. I don’t think it is that bad that the programs recommend families who have completed the program to be the ones to contact for advice. They can speak to what is happening today. There is no reason to believe any of them would be deceitful.
The OP specifically mentioned "group therapy", not individual therapy.
I think I missed that, I was referring a little to the reference to the comment that Aspen doesn’t provide therapy.
It is my understanding that while some programs do provide individual therapy, the group therapy is almost always facilitated by peers and non-qualified staff. Furthermore, most of the individual therapists are essentially subcontractors, as you admit, often paid for directly by the parents and are thus not in the direct employ of the program.
From a business standpoint it makes sense to have the parents pay for the therapists directly. If you look at the rates that therapists are asking today ($140-to-190 per hour) it would cost them $150,000 a year for each therapist at a 30 hour per week billing (that on the low end). You could reduce this cost, eliminate one more employee and remove yourself from the liability picture by having the parents pay and contract this independently. I can only see a program wanting to have a licensed therapist on staff to provide oversight.
It depends on your loose definition of "provide". IMO, "permit" would be a more appropriate word. As far as group therapy goes, are you aware of any Aspen facility where the group therapy is facilitated by licensed psychologists or psychotherapists. Most of the time the only qualifications I see are LCSW and so forth... social worker qualifications. Hardly trained or qualified to facilitate any sort of bone-fide group therapy.
I believe most programs design groups that are run by staff who vary in educational back ground. I couldn’t imagine many programs having a licensed counsellor seated for each group, it would be impossible because they typically break out at the same time in parallel (since programs are so linearly structured). They would have to hire 6 – 10 therapists which could never be affordable. That is why they place the option of therapy on the parents. This seems to work well for the present time.
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I'm not sure anyone should be taking advice on accountablity (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) from Whooter. He seems not to understand what this concept means.
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First this from Psy...
Nothing of substance had changed at all.
Then this gem from Whooter...
Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned
I don't know why any of you bother to even respond meaningfully to Whooter The Ass Clown.
Psy says 'nothing has changed' and Whooter replies 'things have changed, like Psy said' (paraphrased). He says this as if nobody notices he just took two opposite statements and made them equivalent. He can't avoid dissembling from the first sentence of his factually bereft, idiotic reply. Why bother reading past that? :beat: :beat: :beat: :wall:
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The most upsetting aspect of all of this, besides the fact that it has brought up a lot of pain that I never dealt with, is the complete lack of ACCOUNTABILITY by the staff. Accountability, the thing they preached, yelled about, screamed about, and based Lifesteps on. There is known. In fact, there are instead cover-ups and lies. Like I said, I just don't get it. And it makes me very angry, especially for all the crap I endured because of it.
That's because these programs are run by cults. It really is that simple. In the more commonly accepted reality, medical and other professionals have to answer to the patient and/or to the courts when they fuck up. Often, people compare programs to the military. Same holds true there, even when the organization is overtly and openly authoritarian, officers are still held to a reasonable degree of accountability most of the time.
In a cult, the people in authority are not professionals who have learned skills and who perform a legitimate leadership function or they get fired. In a cult, the people in charge have to be seen as god-like beings, infallible, omniscient, above reproach and question. If they admit that the program is flawed then it doesn't "work". This is what Lifton referred to as "Sacred Science (http://http://carol.giambalvo.home.att.net/treform.htm)".
Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
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First this from Psy...
Nothing of substance had changed at all.
Then this gem from Whooter...
Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned
I don't know why any of you bother to even respond meaningfully to Whooter The Ass Clown.
Whooter does this because it works. People really are just that simple minded most of the time. Actually, "simple" is neither fair nor correct. We're really pretty complex but too often blind to the fact that most of our beliefs and perceptions are based on primal drives, emotion, body language and subliminal input. We then craft "logical" ways of framing the issues and kid ourselves into thinking that what we're doing is thinking when we're really just responding.
And if people don't challenge it it becomes part of the accepted reality--the Consensus Trance (http://http://www.cantrip.org/charles_tart.html).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE)
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the program I was in.
Can Benchmark really be called a program?
The answer is no. Benchmark is a facility for adults who wish to rehabilitate themselves from problems. The proper name for Benchmark is adult rehabilitation center, a place which Psy signed himself into at the age of 18, a legal adult. Psy claims he is against coercive programs, something he never experienced in any way, shape or form. In short, Psy is a fraudulent program survivor of a dubious nature.
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Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned, and some may say they are doing away with a percieved harmful aspect of the program when in fact they just rename it. So it is best to try to find out what they are doing currently by reading here or contacting the program directly, speaking to families who have been through the program recently.
I looked around and MBA did provide therapy via a licensed Psychologist (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=352758&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe#p352758). The argument that Aspen had in court was with a specific child who didn’t receive therapy ( at another facility). Many of these facilities give parents the option of having their child see a private therapist while the child attends the program which can be separately funded directly by the parents. It is up to each parent to decide what is appropriate for their child and whether or not they want one on one therapy.
So technically any one specific program may not provide therapy through Aspen, so it can be said that Aspen doesn’t provide Therapy for “all“ their programs directly.
But to imply that Aspen as a Corporation does not provide therapy would be an incorrect statement.
It doesn’t matter what kind of therapy it is. If it is a forced situation it CANNOT result in behavior changes that you can identify as free, independent, expressions of the individual. In this way any positive results cannot statistically be shown to represent the change solely in the individual, but the statistics MUST show that the psychological unit of evaluation is the individual AND the environment. This makes it impossible to produce accurate statistics, or make factual statements with regard to individual change of any kind. “Therapy”, under this pretense, can only produce results that ONLY exist in relation to the environment.
This also means the individual CANNOT credit themselves in any way for the changes they make even if they are positive ones and are happy with them. The continued change in behavior of the individual will always be recognized, by the individual and the involved group, as a result of forced compliance and so any pride the individual may feel for achieving growth and change will be coupled with the fact that it was achieved by giving up their autonomy, and personal will, and submitting to the therapists definition of him as being unaware of his own inability to judge reality and being out of control of his own actions.
The individual then is faced with the untenable position of ‘making positive choices’, but ones that have been directed to him under the pretext ‘you are not well enough to make decisions for yourself’. So even if at some point the individual chooses to continue that behavior he will also be accepting the presupposition, that is adopting the personal belief about himself, that he can be ‘out of control of himself’ or ’not himself’. So if he then falls out of this pattern of ‘positive changes’ he is accepting that it is a result of him ‘losing control of himself’ or entering into some state of mind where he believes some foreign force is controlling him. This belief about himself is necessary to adopt if the process of forced therapy is going to be a success.
Of course if the individual does not want to go through therapy they do not have a choice. The reason is they CANNOT NOT communicate in this situation. Trying to resist the process of therapy is still a type of communication in this situation. The subject will be labeled by the therapist, the one given authority to label him in the social setting, isolated, withdrawn, uncooperative, etc. Resistance on the part of the individual is then able to be used as supportive evidence that he is in fact ‘mentally ill’ in some manner.
Of course this outcome, and the awareness of the inability to challenge the therapists authority, is quickly learned by victims of programs. The knowledge that, if their resistance is detected, it will be cause for negative labeling can result in behavior that is extremely compliant, but the action is really an act to avoid labels that keep him trapped in an environment perceives him as dysfunctional, and therefore not safe to be allowed freedom.
Sorry Whooter, the idea of forced therapy contains this obvious paradox, and your position is void due to this logical error in your thinking. If you really expect your words to have any meaning I suggest you agree to join me here.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442)
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Whooter does this because it works........And if people don't challenge it it becomes part of the accepted reality--the Consensus Trance (http://http://www.cantrip.org/charles_tart.html).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE)
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I was thinking more from a biological standpoint vs hypnotic, although now that you mentioned it I do believe the ever changing perception is what keeps the programs in business. There was no conscience attempt to misquote Psy. Let me try to explain my thinking:
Think of programs as the cure for the common cold. If evolution did not exist we would never be sick because the common cold wouldn’t change or evolve, the cold would stay the same and we would have all built up antibodies to deal with it a long time ago. So for Aspen to stay in business they need to evolve along with us in order to attract the same percentage of the population (staying the same/maintaining market share).
The programs are evolving at a slightly faster pace than we are and therefore are one step ahead of us putting in place a cure. If someone from the past cheats, looks back and peels away a layer (like Psy did when he went back to Benchmark) you may see that the basis of the change is parasitic on the present but mirrors the past as Psy discovered and therefore nothing has really changed from his vantage point. We are not suppose to be able to see that because programs are marketed to be cutting edge and only someone from the past could spot the similarities. People 100 years ago caught the cold the same as we do today but it has evolved to become stronger to outsmart our present antibodies.
The cold is the real problem, not the cure. But as we all know there is no cure for the common cold. We just need to let it run its course and give our bodies time to adjust and overcome it.
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There was no conscience attempt to misquote Psy.
Whooter’s Freudian slip is showing.
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Whooter does this because it works........And if people don't challenge it it becomes part of the accepted reality--the Consensus Trance (http://http://www.cantrip.org/charles_tart.html).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE)
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I was thinking more from a biological standpoint vs hypnotic, although now that you mentioned it I do believe the ever changing perception is what keeps the programs in business. There was no conscience attempt to misquote Psy. Let me try to explain my thinking:
Think of programs as the cure for the common cold. If evolution did not exist we would never be sick because the common cold wouldn’t change or evolve, the cold would stay the same and we would have all built up antibodies to deal with it a long time ago. So for Aspen to stay in business they need to evolve along with us in order to attract the same percentage of the population (staying the same/maintaining market share).
The programs are evolving at a slightly faster pace than we are and therefore are one step ahead of us putting in place a cure. If someone from the past cheats, looks back and peels away a layer (like Psy did when he went back to Benchmark) you may see that the basis of the change is parasitic on the present but mirrors the past as Psy discovered and therefore nothing has really changed from his vantage point. We are not suppose to be able to see that because programs are marketed to be cutting edge and only someone from the past could spot the similarities. People 100 years ago caught the cold the same as we do today but it has evolved to become stronger to outsmart our present antibodies.
The cold is the real problem, not the cure. But as we all know there is no cure for the common cold. We just need to let it run its course and give our bodies time to adjust and overcome it.
We cannot really evaluate things properly if we rely on erroneous associations to explain them. Because you should know....
It doesn’t matter what kind of therapy it is. If it is a forced situation it CANNOT result in behavior changes that you can identify as free, independent, expressions of the individual. In this way any positive results cannot statistically be shown to represent the change solely in the individual, but the statistics MUST show that the psychological unit of evaluation is the individual AND the environment. This makes it impossible to produce accurate statistics, or make factual statements with regard to individual change of any kind. “Therapy”, under this pretense, can only produce results that ONLY exist in relation to the environment.
This also means the individual CANNOT credit themselves in any way for the changes they make even if they are positive ones and are happy with them. The continued change in behavior of the individual will always be recognized, by the individual and the involved group, as a result of forced compliance and so any pride the individual may feel for achieving growth and change will be coupled with the fact that it was achieved by giving up their autonomy, and personal will, and submitting to the therapists definition of him as being unaware of his own inability to judge reality and being out of control of his own actions.
The individual then is faced with the untenable position of ‘making positive choices’, but ones that have been directed to him under the pretext ‘you are not well enough to make decisions for yourself’. So even if at some point the individual chooses to continue that behavior he will also be accepting the presupposition, that is adopting the personal belief about himself, that he can be ‘out of control of himself’ or ’not himself’. So if he then falls out of this pattern of ‘positive changes’ he is accepting that it is a result of him ‘losing control of himself’ or entering into some state of mind where he believes some foreign force is controlling him. This belief about himself is necessary to adopt if the process of forced therapy is going to be a success.
Of course if the individual does not want to go through therapy they do not have a choice. The reason is they CANNOT NOT communicate in this situation. Trying to resist the process of therapy is still a type of communication in this situation. The subject will be labeled by the therapist, the one given authority to label him in the social setting, isolated, withdrawn, uncooperative, etc. Resistance on the part of the individual is then able to be used as supportive evidence that he is in fact ‘mentally ill’ in some manner.
Of course this outcome, and the awareness of the inability to challenge the therapists authority, is quickly learned by victims of programs. The knowledge that, if their resistance is detected, it will be cause for negative labeling can result in behavior that is extremely compliant, but the action is really an act to avoid labels that keep him trapped in an environment perceives him as dysfunctional, and therefore not safe to be allowed freedom.
Sorry Whooter, the idea of forced therapy contains this obvious paradox, and your position is void due to this logical error in your thinking. If you really expect your words to have any meaning I suggest you agree to join me here.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442
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Sorry Whooter, this link works. Welcome.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442)
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Whooter does this because it works........And if people don't challenge it it becomes part of the accepted reality--the Consensus Trance (http://http://www.cantrip.org/charles_tart.html).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE)
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I was thinking more from a biological standpoint vs hypnotic, although now that you mentioned it I do believe the ever changing perception is what keeps the programs in business. There was no conscience attempt to misquote Psy. Let me try to explain my thinking:
Think of programs as the cure for the common cold. If evolution did not exist we would never be sick because the common cold wouldn’t change or evolve, the cold would stay the same and we would have all built up antibodies to deal with it a long time ago. So for Aspen to stay in business they need to evolve along with us in order to attract the same percentage of the population (staying the same/maintaining market share).
The programs are evolving at a slightly faster pace than we are and therefore are one step ahead of us putting in place a cure. If someone from the past cheats, looks back and peels away a layer (like Psy did when he went back to Benchmark) you may see that the basis of the change is parasitic on the present but mirrors the past as Psy discovered and therefore nothing has really changed from his vantage point. We are not suppose to be able to see that because programs are marketed to be cutting edge and only someone from the past could spot the similarities. People 100 years ago caught the cold the same as we do today but it has evolved to become stronger to outsmart our present antibodies.
The cold is the real problem, not the cure. But as we all know there is no cure for the common cold. We just need to let it run its course and give our bodies time to adjust and overcome it.
This is a bunch of stupid double-speak. Programs are perceived to be changing because they lie and say they [ihave changed[/i] but it is clear that they haven't. They use methods that have been scientifically discredited for many decades (e.g. MBA). Aspen Education is one of the very worst. They try to disguise what they do by changing names, like "LifeSteps," but since the content and format don't change, nothing has.
Programs are not like the cure for the common cold. They're the shit your grandpa used to give you when you were sick while explaining, "it burns cuz it's workin'!" No evidence whatsoever suggests programs work at all. In fact, all research about TBS shows they make kids worse. See the Bazelon study on TBS here. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27474&p=331327#p331327) This study actually references MBA and Aspen by name and basically calls them an "overpriced fraud with no benefit."
Yet this proven, unmitigated liar, Whooter (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) wants everyone to ignore science and believe his nonsense? Not happening.
Whooter is a scam artist. Don't believe a word he says. He's an industry player doing damage control for the failed AEG program model. Read point #2. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625)
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I think the original post was perfect. It shows admittance by a former staff that the program was abusive in the past. And the investigators in Oregon are now finding that the abuses by Aspen continued up to the present day when they shut down Mount Bachelor Academy recently.
And I think it is funny that he admitted they didn't follow the law in the old days and that the State of Oregon found they weren't following them today either. And how recently he was admitting they weren't following the law (something like eight months ago) and how quickly they were exposed as being so abusive to kids. And how basically every claim he made in his post the State of Oregon found to be untrue. That what they call therapy and treatment and counseling is in fact nothing of the sort. They found it to be coercive, dangerous, abusive and illegal. Big surprise there. The wheels of justice turn slowly, but they do turn. There was no chance this was going to turn out positively for Aspen Group's Mount Bachelor Academy.
John Reuben can claim that these programs are ever-evolving, but clearly that is not the case.
What was just as funny was John Reuben using the analogy of a common cold. If there was no evolution, the cold virus would not adapt. Well, if there was no evolution, we wouldn't adapt either. So the original cold would be the same, and we'd be fighting it off with the same antibodies over and over again. Unfortunately for John Reuben, we do adapt.
The virus, represented by these cult programs, isn't adapting as quickly today. With the internet, or more specifically the recent explosion and spread of social networking sites and blogs, the ability for survivors to post their stories, tell about the true nature of these programs and contact newspapers and authorities, has allowed the world to adapt and learn. And it is learning quickly that this virus is deadly, kills our kids, and needs a real antibody to wipe it out. And that antibody has started to emerge in states like Oregon. And that antibody will replicate and move to the other states where these viruses have grown. John Reuben can try all he wants to keep the virus alive, but ultimately the virus is going to be wiped out. John Reuben can post as The Who and Whooter all he wants, but it won't change the truth. Any investigation of any of these programs by authorities will always reveal the virus of abuse.
John Reuben may keep using the "just a few bad apples" defense, but that's so old and shows a lack of adaptation. And John Reuben can claim that some of the programs have a licensed psychologist on staff, but on the one hand, that shows the rest of the staff aren't licensed, and as the State of Oregon determined, that one psychologist wasn't doing the counseling, it was the untrained staff that were doing it all. Which is why, whenever any state investigators show up at these places, they are going to find the same thing and come to the same conclusions. No amount of untrained staff are capable of providing legitimate treatment, counseling or therapy. They might be able to babysit teens, but past that....? Nothing. Just a facade. A very expensive and well marketed facade that is quickly being revealed, just like The Wizard of Oz was, as being just a money driven sham.
I am sorry the survivor who opened this thread had to suffer, but glad she found out the truth, painful as it was.
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Some excerpts from the DHS report:
[Redacted information] [M]any children enroll at MBA with a variety of mental, emotional and behavioral challenges, including substance abuse, depression, [medical issues], learning disorders, conduct disorders, parent-child relational problems, and trauma histories resulting in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). While MBA has this information, it does not utilize substantive individualized treatment plans for students on which the staff are trained. Instead, all students are required to participate in MBA's "emotional growth curriculum," including a series of "personal growth" experiences known as "Lifesteps," regardless of their emotional, behavioral or mental health treatment needs."
“[redacted] MBA staff identified Child A's issues as abandonment, molestation, [diagnosed] problems, not obeying Child A's parents, cussing, partying and [redacted behavior]. Staff reported that while at MBA, Child A was supposed to work on feeling “disgusting” because this is how Child A felt about [redacted] and [redacted past event].
Child A reported that while at MBA, during a Venture Lifestep that occurred on [date redacted], Child A had to wear a "French Maid's" outfit and give male clients and one staff "lap dances" in front of male and female clients and staff. A male peer confirmed that Child A had performed a lap dance on him. Child A said staff assigned Child A the role of "French Maid" because Child A had been [event] in Child A's past and this was a way for Child A to take responsibility for what happened. Child A said staff directed Child A to "Go shake your ass like you do for the boys.” Child A said staff called Child A a "slut" and told Child A Child A was "worthless" and said Child A "wouldn't get anywhere in life."
MBA Executive Director Sharon Bitz was asked to respond to the allegation of abuse, and stated "No. It's my opinion we didn't abuse Child A. I don't believe Child A was abused on that date."
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AP3 is a Phase IV Leader at Mt. Bachelor Academy, and was one of the founders of the program. In an early interview, AP3 stated AP3 had written the scripts for the Lifesteps with another MBA founder, and as Phase Leader, helped assign Lifestep roles. In an interview on 10/13/09 AP3 stated Lifesteps were “in the past,” because MBA no longer has Lifesteps. AP3 stated MBA had changed the scripts as a result of being investigated, because “some of them were written poorly.”
Responding to the allegation that AP3 developed Lifestep scripts that are coercive, degrading and humiliating, AP3 stated they are not “an AP3 creation.”AP3 said AP3 has implemented Lifestep scripts, but said some of it comes from CEDU, AP3 said AP3 wrote them with another founding MBA member after working at CEDU. AP3 stated while at CEDU AP3 went through all the ‘workshops” now called Lifesteps, and acknowledged that AP3 AP3's self had walked out of a CEDU workshop similar to The Venture, but said MBA started using a “softer approach” than what was used at CEDU. Discussing Venture Lifestep roles, for example, AP3 said the roles, like Child A's "French Maid" role, are not "in stone," and students can act out their role as they choose to. AP3 said the goal for students is to realize their minds can play games, and for the students to see themselves and "how they may go to the negative side." For example, AP3 stated Child A [behaviors redacted]. AP3 said Child A was very wild and had very bad boundaries. AP3 stated the "French Maid" is not a "sexual" role, it's about "cleaning house, and looking cute." AP3 said the purpose of the workshop is that pushing fear brings an understanding of how powerful negative thinking can hold you back.
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Can Benchmark really be called a shitsandwich?
I don't see why not.
Show me one former CEDU employee with any integrity.
Show me one former CEDU employee who has faced the music..
For every 10 of these former CEDU employees I'll show you 100 Steve Rookie Clonemeisters. Modern day human potentialists trying to get their piece of the $200 a day pie.
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AP3 is a Phase IV Leader at Mt. Bachelor Academy, and was one of the founders of the program. In an early interview, AP3 stated AP3 had written the scripts for the Lifesteps with another MBA founder, and as Phase Leader, helped assign Lifestep roles. In an interview on 10/13/09 AP3 stated Lifesteps were “in the past,” because MBA no longer has Lifesteps. AP3 stated MBA had changed the scripts as a result of being investigated, because “some of them were written poorly.”
Responding to the allegation that AP3 developed Lifestep scripts that are coercive, degrading and humiliating, AP3 stated they are not “an AP3 creation.”AP3 said AP3 has implemented Lifestep scripts, but said some of it comes from CEDU, AP3 said AP3 wrote them with another founding MBA member after working at CEDU. AP3 stated while at CEDU AP3 went through all the ‘workshops” now called Lifesteps, and acknowledged that AP3 AP3's self had walked out of a CEDU workshop similar to The Venture, but said MBA started using a “softer approach” than what was used at CEDU. Discussing Venture Lifestep roles, for example, AP3 said the roles, like Child A's "French Maid" role, are not "in stone," and students can act out their role as they choose to. AP3 said the goal for students is to realize their minds can play games, and for the students to see themselves and "how they may go to the negative side." For example, AP3 stated Child A [behaviors redacted]. AP3 said Child A was very wild and had very bad boundaries. AP3 stated the "French Maid" is not a "sexual" role, it's about "cleaning house, and looking cute." AP3 said the purpose of the workshop is that pushing fear brings an understanding of how powerful negative thinking can hold you back.
Also from the report. "AP3" is presumed to be Alex Bitz.
Wait. It gets better...
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Programs are ever evolving, like Psy mentioned, and some may say they are doing away with a percieved harmful aspect of the program when in fact they just rename it. So it is best to try to find out what they are doing currently by reading here or contacting the program directly, speaking to families who have been through the program recently.
I looked around and MBA did provide therapy via a licensed Psychologist (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=352758&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe#p352758). The argument that Aspen had in court was with a specific child who didn’t receive therapy ( at another facility). Many of these facilities give parents the option of having their child see a private therapist while the child attends the program which can be separately funded directly by the parents. It is up to each parent to decide what is appropriate for their child and whether or not they want one on one therapy.
So technically any one specific program may not provide therapy through Aspen, so it can be said that Aspen doesn’t provide Therapy for “all“ their programs directly.
But to imply that Aspen as a Corporation does not provide therapy would be an incorrect statement.
Here's your " licensed Psychologist (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=352758&sid=04377f17a7f749847fa7d12772f3cbfe#p352758)", as per the report:
"MBA employs two licensed mental health professionals, but neither provides individual therapy to students, except in certain rare circumstances, and only W28 is licensed in Oregon. (W48 is licensed in XXX). W28 prepares a "treatment plan, known as the child's “Program Strategy” for each enrolled student. Note: W28 is licensed in CBT, but W28 does not individually treat students except in rare cases. When W28 was asked whether W28 observed or participated in the Lifesteps W28 said no. W28 said the last Lifestep W28 was in was "two or three years ago." W28 was asked why W28 was not involved in assisting the Mentors and Phase Leaders in choosing Lifestep roles that were individualized and in line with student's Program Strategies, W28 answered, "I really don't know. Lifesteps are part of the program, and I work adjunctively to the program." W28 said, "I don't know why I'm not involved, but I'm not."
" W48 stated W48 was brought to MBA for W48's clinical background and to bring "more accountability to the phase leaders and to empower them." W48 stated W48 works with AP2 to assess students throughout their stay at MBA. W48 stated the mentor sets the goals from the treatment plan.
W48 said W48 did not know who wrote Lifesteps scripts but thought they had been there for 20 years. W48 said W48 does not know if the scripts were ever reviewed. W48 said the Venture roles are "left up to the kid" and they should "figure it out." W48 said W48 hopes the students see the turning point and take responsibility for the pain within.
W28 was asked if W28 trained the Mentors on the treatment plans, and W28 said no. W28 stated mentors would find it difficult to read the evaluations and information from the testing, as they have not been trained to do so. W28 said it is W28's job to "translate" this information for the mentors. W28 said there is a weekly meeting on Wednesdays when various school issues are discussed and phase members are present, but said W28 could not remember a time when treatment plans were part of that meeting.
W28 stated the individualized treatment plan is not intended to be a diagnostic instrument, and mentors are not “therapists." In in the same interview, W28 then described the mentors as students' "primary therapists." W8 stated, “The treatment plan is a guide for the mentors. It’s part of the therapeutic curriculum.” W28 confirmed that mentors are not licensed mental health providers. "
AP2 was asked to respond to the allegation that AP2 neglected the care of Child A, Child B, Child C and Economides by failing to develop individualized and therapeutic treatment plans to address their [redacted] abuse, [medical] or [redacted diagnosed ] issues. AP2 replied, “That’s not true. I have not had any administrative or supervisory relationship to them (the children) whatsoever. I don’t see how I could have had that. My responsibility and relationship to them is to construct a treatment plan based on a synthesis of documentation.” AP2 said MBA is not a residential treatment center where a Clinical Director has oversight of all clinicians. AP2 said, “I am not that person. That person is W48.”
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Sorry. Double post.
It seems by the report that everyone's strategy is shrug off, deny, double talk, lie & blame others. Interesting, for a school that prides it self for making kids "responsible for their actions and behaviors". I'd say the staff might want to go through their own program again...
Stay tuned.
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"MBA employs two licensed mental health professionals, but neither provides individual therapy to students, except in certain rare circumstances, and only W28 is licensed in Oregon.......
Thanks for your post, guest, this seems to be consistent with many of the other programs where individual therapy is provided through a private therapist who isn’t directly working for the program. This way a parent can determine if they want their child to see a therapist one on one during their stay there. Its good to see that they had a couple professionals on staff to oversee the program. The way it reads to me is that they had a process in place which was mostly run by the “mentors” and overseen by licensed therapists.
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I think the original post was perfect. It shows admittance by a former staff that the program was abusive in the past. And the investigators in Oregon are now finding that the abuses by Aspen continued up to the present day when they shut down Mount Bachelor Academy recently
[....]
I am sorry the survivor who opened this thread had to suffer, but glad she found out the truth, painful as it was.
Thank you for your kind words.
The staff from whom I took the quote worked there right up until they closed.
I suppose I should have dealt with all of this back when I left MBA (in 1992), but I was young--I was 12 when I arrived there. I consider myself a very open person; sometimes I need to remember to basically shut up. But the experience of MBA was so...painful, for lack of a better word, that I just pushed it down. I also thought if I told anyone, they would think me a liar, because, after all, that's who MBA said I was, among other things.
I have actually had the same therapist since I got out, like I said, in '92. I've told her every possible detail about my life (though I harshly tested her at first). Yet, I have never told her about MBA. She said recently that she would ask me about it, and I would just change the subject. When I became aware of the investigation, and the closing, as well as the incredible lies and lame comments coming out of Sharon Bitz's mouth (who, I think, is basically her husband, Alex Bitz's sock puppet), all these horrible memories came flooding back. I began to tell my therapist about the Lifesteps, my self study, the groups...she said, had I told her this years ago, she would have immediately called CPS here, as well as CPS in Oregon. She said there is no question that what they did was abuse, and had she known, she would have fought to close it down.
I feel a bit guilty for not telling her sooner. But I was still in "survivor mode", as in, 'I'll do whatever I need to do to survive and get the hell out of here.' Now, almost 20 years later, I'm paying for it. Which sucks, because I know I did nothing wrong. At 12, I did not deserve to be called a "slut, worthless, whore, liar, etc." I remember Alex getting in my face, telling me, (I'm adopted), "Your birth mom was a whore. Her mom was a whore (my b-mom was adopted as well), and you are so worthless, not even a whore wanted you! Now, your second set of parents don't want you either. Being a whore is in your blood, and that's all you'll be." I can picture that, right down to the spit flying out of his mouth onto my chin. It was in 1 of the Lifesteps. And that was the typical stuff that was said, daily, not just to me. I was 12. Let me repeat that. I was 12.
I've also talked to a couple female students who had many inappropriate encounters with Alex Bitz. He allegedly gave 1 girl sleeping pills, had another come to his house 3 times, to do homework or writing assignments, laying on her stomach in front of him, as he just watched. If anyone needs to be in jail, it's him.
Just some examples of Facebook board posts by Alex:
Alexandru Bitz
It's late, I am tired and somehow I am uncomfortable numb right now ... you know, a lot is going on...
Can anybody or yourself email/call/visit me and Sharon and tell us WHEN AND HOW WE ABUSED YOU?
If it was another staff who did harm to you, please let us/me know. I will personally make it public and help you ...
Be good, ... See More
Alex
November 6 at 6:37pm
*I wrote him several letters before, that went unanswered, but I decided to write another one with the details of my first 6 months there, and title the letter, "Abuse, Part 1". I knew others wrote him as well, yet nothing else was posted on the board by him, so I posted this:
Hey, where did Mr. Bitz go? He offered answers/help, yet there have been no answers/help. Is this another empty "promise"?
......I don't see any answers from any staff yet....tick tock tick tock.
November 15 at 8:26pm
Got a response the next day, on the public board:
Alexandru Bitz
Well Ms. [my last name], a little busy here saying good bye to kids, parents and preparing to be jobless. Yesterday 48 mentors and teachers were let go after years of real meaningful work. And none of them ABUSED anyone. In a month the rest of us , more than 30 mentors and teachers will join the the unemployment line. But in that line we all will be Moreproud of the work that we did . Clear conscience for sure and many people to confirm that.
What about you spending the day today to rejoice that MBA is gone.
I am going to campus to get some pictures and FY clouds and be sad.
Have a nice day.
November 16 at 7:52am
It's all about him, as my therapist said. Nothing about the students, past or present, no kind words to any of us--in fact, snide, sarcastic comments to me. And yet, "it was all for the children...".
I'll post Bill's stuff later...
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"MBA employs two licensed mental health professionals, but neither provides individual therapy to students, except in certain rare circumstances, and only W28 is licensed in Oregon.......
Thanks for your post, guest, this seems to be consistent with many of the other programs where individual therapy is provided through a private therapist who isn’t directly working for the program. This way a parent can determine if they want their child to see a therapist one on one during their stay there. Its good to see that they had a couple professionals on staff to oversee the program. The way it reads to me is that they had a process in place which was mostly run by the “mentors” and overseen by licensed therapists.
But you're not very bright, so it will read differently to you because you don't understand the subject matter and also because you have financial ties to Aspen. To normals, it reads "We offered you therapy for your child, but we didn't give any except in rare circumstances and only by unlicensed people."
You have to keep in mind when reading Whooters posts that he takes Juvenile Justice funds and kids from jail and puts them into Aspen programs through STICC. So now you have no therapy, plus convicted JJ criminals mingling freely with your kids at Aspen programs, which were already proven both ineffective and abusive, ala MBA.
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John Reuben may keep using the "just a few bad apples" defense, but that's so old and shows a lack of adaptation. And John Reuben can claim that some of the programs have a licensed psychologist on staff, but on the one hand, that shows the rest of the staff aren't licensed, and as the State of Oregon determined, that one psychologist wasn't doing the counseling, it was the untrained staff that were doing it all. Which is why, whenever any state investigators show up at these places, they are going to find the same thing and come to the same conclusions. No amount of untrained staff are capable of providing legitimate treatment, counseling or therapy. They might be able to babysit teens, but past that....? Nothing. Just a facade. A very expensive and well marketed facade that is quickly being revealed, just like The Wizard of Oz was, as being just a money driven sham.
I didn’t see John Reubens post so I cannot speak directly to it. But in response to the above I couldn’t imagine any organization wanting to have all their staff licensed even if it were affordable. How many licensed engineers actually put together you car, heating system, dishwashers, stoves, ambulances etc. Although they are highly complex and require a great deal of skill and knowledge to create, we as a society develop detailed processes and plans so that a paid licensed professional is not required throughout every phase of development. So I think the argument here is not whether or not every employee is licensed but whether the licensed staff that they did have was adequate or not. I haven’t seen any laws tossed up here which define the requirements so none of us are able to determine what the minimum level of professionalism is acceptable by law.
Hospitals have this very well defined, if you go in for an operation you will see the doctor for the length of the operation (45 mins) and then he goes home and then you are overseen by a treatment plan which requires very little one on one time with a licensed professional.
So the struggle here is to determine how much the licensed professional should be involved in the day to day process of the program. Should they have a licensed profession sit in on all groups when they break out for discussions 2 or 3 times a day? Should a professional see each child every day? Should the professional outline treatment plans and allow non professionals to carry them out? Should a process be developed which is overseen by professionals but run by non professionals? I think these are some of the questions I would like to see answered by comparing them to established laws and standard protocol.
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"MBA employs two licensed mental health professionals, but neither provides individual therapy to students, except in certain rare circumstances, and only W28 is licensed in Oregon.......
Thanks for your post, guest, this seems to be consistent with many of the other programs where individual therapy is provided through a private therapist who isn’t directly working for the program. This way a parent can determine if they want their child to see a therapist one on one during their stay there. Its good to see that they had a couple professionals on staff to oversee the program. The way it reads to me is that they had a process in place which was mostly run by the “mentors” and overseen by licensed therapists.
...mostly run by the mentors and overseen by licensed therapists? That is incorrect. The mentors oversee everything, including the therapist. At best the therapists only offer their proffesional opinion to the 'mentors' for them to filter out and isolate information that is useful to them within the context of the program. This is actually more dangerous than having no therapists at all. People without training should not be playing therapist to anyone, especially those who are not yet adults.
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So the struggle here is to determine how much the licensed professional should be involved in the day to day process of the program. Should they have a licensed profession sit in on all groups when they break out for discussions 2 or 3 times a day? Should a professional see each child every day? Should the professional outline treatment plans and allow non professionals to carry them out? Should a process be developed which is overseen by professionals but run by non professionals? I think these are some of the questions I would like to see answered by comparing them to established laws and standard protocol.
This may answer part of your question, though I cannot fathom that you have not understood the point yet.
According to the State of Oregon:
OAR 407-045-0820: Maltreatment of child, which includes but is not limited to failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care that is likely to endanger the child’s health or welfare. Maltreatment also includes but is not limited to the willful infliction of pain or injury, hitting, kicking, scratching, pinching, choking, spanking, pushing, slapping, twisting of head, arms, or legs, tripping, exposure to domestic violence, the use of unnecessary or excessive physical force, or other physical contact with a child inconsistent with prescribed treatment or care, the use of derogatory names, phrases or profanity, ridicule, harassment, coercion, or intimidation, that is likely to endanger the child’s health or welfare.
OAR 407-045-0820: Threatened harm to a child, which means subjecting a child to a substantial risk of harm to the child’s health or welfare.
OAR 407-045-0820- Negligent treatment of a child, which includes but is not limited to failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter or medical care that is likely to endanger the child's health or welfare. Negligent treatment also includes, but is not limited to failure to supervise a child, or failure to intervene when a child needs assistance or care, that is likely to endanger the child's health or welfare.
Perhaps, had there been a licensed psychologist actively participating in the program, that individual would have more knowledge of the laws, and therefore prevented some of the abuse from happening. Do you think it was an oversight or accident that the licensed party never attended lifesteps or groups?
Here is a description of abuse again, in layman's terms:
Posted by lawsprotect on 04/11/09 at 9:12PM
It seems that perhaps some of the staff, students and parents, past and present, might not understand what constitutes "abuse."
A staff member continually yelling at a student, yelling profanities at the student, yelling humiliating and degrading remarks at the student, name-calling, in Group or out, is ABUSE and against the law. It doesn't matter that you don't think it is abuse. It doesn't matter that there may be some 'good intention' and hope for a good result on the part of the staff member. It is still ABUSE and against the law.
There are other ways to bring about good results.
ABUSE is not one of them.
If you are denied sleep in a two or three or four day Life Step, except for an hour or two, this is neglect, and neglect is ABUSE and against the law. It doesn't matter if you didn't mind it, it is still ABUSE. And you have all suffered sleep deprivation, if you made any of the Life Steps.
If you were not fed meals, but perhaps little snacks on a three or four day Life Step or intervention or work study or self study . . . that is neglect, and neglect is ABUSE. It doesn't matter if you weren't hungry and it was okay with you, it is still ABUSE.
If you were forced to do physical labor for extended periods of time, such as eight hours a day or longer, hauling rocks, digging ditches, digging holes and then filling them back up, shoveling snow, etc., that is ABUSE. Most of you are, or were, minors. It is abusive to force you into physical labor for long days, and days and days on end.
If you were forced to spend weeks, and months for some, in isolation, not allowed to smile, not allowed to talk to anyone, forced to sit and be humiliated at a table by yourself, treated as if you were not even a human being and as if you didn't exist . . . that is psychological, emotional ABUSE. It doesn't matter if you were okay with it, or if you understood the 'bigger picture.' It is still ABUSE and it is against the law.
If you were forced to be abusive to others, as you were in Group, yelling at the top of your lungs at them, thinking up horrible, often untrue things to yell at them, that is ABUSE.
You were not only abused yourselves, but you were forced to abuse other students. This is against the law, even if you didn't think it was so bad. The law is the law. And the laws are there to protect you.
If you were on prescription medication and that medication was denied to you at any time, during Life Steps, when you were leaving campus, etc., that is harmful to your medical health and it is ABUSE.
If you were a minor and forced to do things of a sexual nature that you were not comfortable with, that is ABUSE.
Maybe you get the picture . . .
If you were a victim of any of the above mentioned things, you have been ABUSED.
Just because some well-meaning people think they can bring about a good result for you, they still do not have the right to ABUSE you in order to try to bring it about. ABUSE is against the law.
Again, just because you don't perceive it to be abuse, doesn't change the fact that it IS abuse.
I understand that while you are a student at MBA, you have no recourse to report the abuse. You can't make phone calls, you are not allowed to report anything like that to your parents, you have no access to a hot line . . . the only people you can report the abuse to are the abusers themselves. The fact that you are in that situation with no possibility of reporting is again, abusive to you.
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" W48 stated W48 was brought to MBA for W48's clinical background and to bring "more accountability to the phase leaders and to empower them.[/b]" W48 stated W48 works with AP2 to assess students throughout their stay at MBA. W48 stated the mentor sets the goals from the treatment plan.W28 was asked if W28 trained the Mentors on the treatment plans, and W28 said no. W28 stated mentors would find it difficult to read the evaluations and information from the testing, as they have not been trained to do so. W28 said it is W28's job to "translate" this information for the mentors. W28 said there is a weekly meeting on Wednesdays when various school issues are discussed and phase members are present, but said W28 could not remember a time when treatment plans were part of that meeting.W28 stated the individualized treatment plan is not intended to be a diagnostic instrument, and mentors are not “therapists." In in the same interview, W28 then described the mentors as students' "primary therapists." W8 stated, “The treatment plan is a guide for the mentors. It’s part of the therapeutic curriculum.” W28 confirmed that mentors are not licensed mental health providers. "
AP2 was asked to respond to the allegation that AP2 neglected the care of Child A, Child B, Child C and Economides by failing to develop individualized and therapeutic treatment plans to address their [redacted] abuse, [medical] or [redacted diagnosed ] issues. AP2 replied, “That’s not true. I have not had any administrative or supervisory relationship to them (the children) whatsoever. I don’t see how I could have had that. My responsibility and relationship to them is to construct a treatment plan based on a synthesis of documentation.” AP2 said MBA is not a residential treatment center where a Clinical Director has oversight of all clinicians. AP2 said, “I am not that person. That person is W48.
Thanks for your post, guest, this seems to be consistent with many of the other programs where individual therapy is provided through a private therapist who isn’t directly working for the program. This way a parent can determine if they want their child to see a therapist one on one during their stay there. Its good to see that they had a couple professionals on staff to oversee the program. The way it reads to me is that they had a process in place which was mostly run by the “mentors” and overseen by licensed therapists.
Do you see the inconsistencies? Do you see the contradictions from their own mouths? Or are you blind? AP2 is obviously a mentor. He/she says he/she has not had any "administrative or supervisory relationship to them (the children) whatsoever. I don’t see how I could have had that. My responsibility and relationship to them is to construct a treatment plan based on a synthesis of documentation.”
Yet, W28, the licensed clinician of which you are hanging your hat on, says this:
W28 was asked if W28 trained the Mentors on the treatment plans, and W28 said no. W28 stated mentors would find it difficult to read the evaluations and information from the testing, as they have not been trained to do so. W28 said it is W28's job to "translate" this information for the mentors. W28 said there is a weekly meeting on Wednesdays when various school issues are discussed and phase members are present, but said W28 could not remember a time when treatment plans were part of that meeting.W28 stated the individualized treatment plan is not intended to be a diagnostic instrument, and mentors are not “therapists." In in the same interview, W28 then described the mentors as students' "primary therapists." W8 stated, “The treatment plan is a guide for the mentors. It’s part of the therapeutic curriculum.” W28 confirmed that mentors are not licensed mental health providers."
Unless one is used to contradictions, double talk, and downright lies, I don't understand how the above could be misinterpreted into anything other than the licensed clinician being there as a prop.
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[
So the struggle here is to determine how much the licensed professional should be involved in the day to day process of the program.
No. the only question is whether or someone should be forced into therapy. I really don't see what you have to fear from agreeing to join me here to illustrate both our points.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442)
You will have many advantages over the teenager who is sent to a program. You can leave at any time without consequences, you have age, knowledge and experience that few if any have when sent to a program. What could you possibly have to fear from doing this that wouldn't be much worse for a teen put through a program for sometimes years.
Whenever you decide you are ready to talk, just post there. I'm rooting for you.
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Some excerpts from the DHS report:
[Redacted information] [M]any children enroll at MBA with a variety of mental, emotional and behavioral challenges, including substance abuse, depression, [medical issues], learning disorders, conduct disorders, parent-child relational problems, and trauma histories resulting in Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). While MBA has this information, it does not utilize substantive individualized treatment plans for students on which the staff are trained. Instead, all students are required to participate in MBA's "emotional growth curriculum," including a series of "personal growth" experiences known as "Lifesteps," regardless of their emotional, behavioral or mental health treatment needs."
"[redacted] MBA staff identified Child A's issues as abandonment, molestation, [diagnosed] problems, not obeying Child A's parents, cussing, partying and [redacted behavior]. Staff reported that while at MBA, Child A was supposed to work on feeling "disgusting" because this is how Child A felt about [redacted] and [redacted past event].
Child A reported that while at MBA, during a Venture Lifestep that occurred on [date redacted], Child A had to wear a "French Maid's" outfit and give male clients and one staff "lap dances" in front of male and female clients and staff. A male peer confirmed that Child A had performed a lap dance on him. Child A said staff assigned Child A the role of "French Maid" because Child A had been [event] in Child A's past and this was a way for Child A to take responsibility for what happened. Child A said staff directed Child A to "Go shake your ass like you do for the boys." Child A said staff called Child A a "slut" and told Child A Child A was "worthless" and said Child A "wouldn't get anywhere in life."
MBA Executive Director Sharon Bitz was asked to respond to the allegation of abuse, and stated "No. It's my opinion we didn't abuse Child A. I don't believe Child A was abused on that date."
Where is this material from? Which DHS report are you accessing?
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FUCK MBA BITCHES!!! ::deadhorse::
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So the struggle here is to determine how much the licensed professional should be involved in the day to day process of the program. Should they have a licensed profession sit in on all groups when they break out for discussions 2 or 3 times a day? Should a professional see each child every day? Should the professional outline treatment plans and allow non professionals to carry them out? Should a process be developed which is overseen by professionals but run by non professionals? I think these are some of the questions I would like to see answered by comparing them to established laws and standard protocol.
This may answer part of your question, though I cannot fathom that you have not understood the point yet.
According to the State of Oregon:
OAR 407-045-0820: Maltreatment of child, which includes but is not limited to failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, or medical care that is likely to endanger the child’s health or welfare. Maltreatment also includes but is not limited to the willful infliction of pain or injury, hitting, kicking, scratching, pinching, choking, spanking, pushing, slapping, twisting of head, arms, or legs, tripping, exposure to domestic violence, the use of unnecessary or excessive physical force, or other physical contact with a child inconsistent with prescribed treatment or care, the use of derogatory names, phrases or profanity, ridicule, harassment, coercion, or intimidation, that is likely to endanger the child’s health or welfare.
OAR 407-045-0820: Threatened harm to a child, which means subjecting a child to a substantial risk of harm to the child’s health or welfare.
OAR 407-045-0820- Negligent treatment of a child, which includes but is not limited to failure to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter or medical care that is likely to endanger the child's health or welfare. Negligent treatment also includes, but is not limited to failure to supervise a child, or failure to intervene when a child needs assistance or care, that is likely to endanger the child's health or welfare.
Perhaps, had there been a licensed psychologist actively participating in the program, that individual would have more knowledge of the laws, and therefore prevented some of the abuse from happening. Do you think it was an oversight or accident that the licensed party never attended lifesteps or groups?
Here is a description of abuse again, in layman's terms:
Posted by lawsprotect on 04/11/09 at 9:12PM
It seems that perhaps some of the staff, students and parents, past and present, might not understand what constitutes "abuse."
A staff member continually yelling at a student, yelling profanities at the student, yelling humiliating and degrading remarks at the student, name-calling, in Group or out, is ABUSE and against the law. It doesn't matter that you don't think it is abuse. It doesn't matter that there may be some 'good intention' and hope for a good result on the part of the staff member. It is still ABUSE and against the law.
There are other ways to bring about good results.
ABUSE is not one of them.
If you are denied sleep in a two or three or four day Life Step, except for an hour or two, this is neglect, and neglect is ABUSE and against the law. It doesn't matter if you didn't mind it, it is still ABUSE. And you have all suffered sleep deprivation, if you made any of the Life Steps.
If you were not fed meals, but perhaps little snacks on a three or four day Life Step or intervention or work study or self study . . . that is neglect, and neglect is ABUSE. It doesn't matter if you weren't hungry and it was okay with you, it is still ABUSE.
If you were forced to do physical labor for extended periods of time, such as eight hours a day or longer, hauling rocks, digging ditches, digging holes and then filling them back up, shoveling snow, etc., that is ABUSE. Most of you are, or were, minors. It is abusive to force you into physical labor for long days, and days and days on end.
If you were forced to spend weeks, and months for some, in isolation, not allowed to smile, not allowed to talk to anyone, forced to sit and be humiliated at a table by yourself, treated as if you were not even a human being and as if you didn't exist . . . that is psychological, emotional ABUSE. It doesn't matter if you were okay with it, or if you understood the 'bigger picture.' It is still ABUSE and it is against the law.
If you were forced to be abusive to others, as you were in Group, yelling at the top of your lungs at them, thinking up horrible, often untrue things to yell at them, that is ABUSE.
You were not only abused yourselves, but you were forced to abuse other students. This is against the law, even if you didn't think it was so bad. The law is the law. And the laws are there to protect you.
If you were on prescription medication and that medication was denied to you at any time, during Life Steps, when you were leaving campus, etc., that is harmful to your medical health and it is ABUSE.
If you were a minor and forced to do things of a sexual nature that you were not comfortable with, that is ABUSE.
Maybe you get the picture . . .
If you were a victim of any of the above mentioned things, you have been ABUSED.
Just because some well-meaning people think they can bring about a good result for you, they still do not have the right to ABUSE you in order to try to bring it about. ABUSE is against the law.
Again, just because you don't perceive it to be abuse, doesn't change the fact that it IS abuse.
I understand that while you are a student at MBA, you have no recourse to report the abuse. You can't make phone calls, you are not allowed to report anything like that to your parents, you have no access to a hot line . . . the only people you can report the abuse to are the abusers themselves. The fact that you are in that situation with no possibility of reporting is again, abusive to you.
Enola,
This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this site. The letter from Lawsprotect is perfect and simple. And John Reuben does understand. The fact he reads the same reports and comes to different conclusions shows that he understands, because his efforts to suggest these reports are not describing abuse and neglect actually confirms that he understands. We know he is a sock puppet for the industry and trying to convince him or respond to him is pretty pointless. It is his job to try and counter any negative press to the industry and it's amusing to watch him flail around trying to plug up a sinking ship.
Your original post was primarily about the abuse you experienced. And John Reuben naturally didn't want to discuss that, so he changed the subject as usual. But I wanted to discuss it, specifically the Adoption Blame part. I too was adopted and was told the same thing. That it was all my fault. That my mother was a whore, that she didn't want me, that I was to blame for something that happened seconds after my birth. Just a few years ago I tracked her down. My "whore" mom is still married to my father. I have five other siblings. They are great people, very wholesome and caring and I am now a part of their loving family again. And when I began to think about this back in 2002, it helped me realize how indifferent the staff were to the abuse they heaped on us. That telling a child his or her birth mother is a whore is wrong, but they were incapable of seeing this as abuse. They really and truly thought that was going to do me some good. They thought anything they said should be tacked on to the Ten Commandments. They truly believed that all they said or did was truly holy and blessed. And the reason is because they were not licensed, had no training to be counseling anyone, and from that Alex Bitz letter, it is just reinforced some more that they are clueless to the abuse they have caused and would continue to cause if they were given another chance. Alex sounded like he got hit by the reality train. And John Reuben, posting here as Whooter is just as incapable of accepting that abuse is all these programs can generate. He wants to find the diamond hiding in the bullshit. But he, like Alex and Sharon, have their head stuck so far down in to the bullshit all that comes out of their mouth is bovine excrement. You can see how all of his posts here are so similar to those of Alex Bitz. And like Sharon Bitz as well. Unable to accept the reality. They are used to playing god to children, doing no wrong. But when the reality police show up and investigate, they get a slap of reality that abuse is abuse no matter how much they like to pretend it isn't. They find they can't scream and spit or shout loud enough to shut up the investigators. They can't bullshit and make up enough psychobabble nonsense to squirm their way out of it.
And that's why this is so cool. That we all knew, deep down, if a state investigated one of these places, they would come to no other conclusion than that abuse was systematic. That the clowns were running the circus. And they did. When we were in those programs, they were The Mighty. But oh how the mighty have fallen now. And like dominoes, they will continue to fall one after another as state after state goes after them. We just need to keep pushing and the rest will follow.
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Your original post was primarily about the abuse you experienced. And John Reuben naturally didn't want to discuss that, so he changed the subject as usual. But I wanted to discuss it, specifically the Adoption Blame part. I too was adopted and was told the same thing. That it was all my fault. That my mother was a whore, that she didn't want me, that I was to blame for something that happened seconds after my birth. Just a few years ago I tracked her down. My "whore" mom is still married to my father. I have five other siblings. They are great people, very wholesome and caring and I am now a part of their loving family again. And when I began to think about this back in 2002, it helped me realize how indifferent the staff were to the abuse they heaped on us. That telling a child his or her birth mother is a whore is wrong, but they were incapable of seeing this as abuse. They really and truly thought that was going to do me some good. They thought anything they said should be tacked on to the Ten Commandments. They truly believed that all they said or did was truly holy and blessed. And the reason is because they were not licensed, had no training to be counseling anyone, and from that Alex Bitz letter, it is just reinforced some more that they are clueless to the abuse they have caused and would continue to cause if they were given another chance. Alex sounded like he got hit by the reality train.
I will pm you later, as I would love to hear more about your reunion. I think it's wonderful, and probably very healing for you.
I have to disagree, though, with the statement that they were incapable of seeing this as abuse. 3 months before I arrived at MBA, I was in the middle of searching for my birth mother, and found out she died when she was 24 (she had me at 15). The staff knew this. They also knew that at my young age, I was already deeply self-loathing and clinically depressed. After doing some research, I found this article:
http://http://www.adoptionissues.org/needs-adopted-teens.html
It felt like a punch in the stomach. I also reached out to Alex, Sharon, Bill, and others after left MBA, having a very hard time adjusting. My calls went unanswered, there were no responses to my letters, nothing. It was like I had vanished from their memory. I had a very traumatic event happen a year after I left, and, for some reason, I felt the need for comfort from Alex or anyone from MBA. I still received no reply. Nothing. A couples years later, there was a small reunion in my area , of which I attended. I pulled Alex to the side and asked if he received any of my letters. He responded, "which one?" I told him the one specifically about the [traumatic event]. His response was a very cold, "yes.", then he walked away. However, in front of the others, he was all smiles and hugs toward me.
Because every form of communication with him previously went unanswered, I wrote an 'open letter' to Alex, and Sharon, in response to his comment to me on the public board. It does not go into as much detail as my 'abuse' letter did, but I think my point was came across pretty clearly. I posted this on the MBA Alumni boards, as well as emailing it to both of them, directly. Needless to say, I received no response from either one.
My therapist told me the lack of communication on their part is an avoidance of admitting guilt, that they knew, in whatever capacity they could, that they really "messed up" with me, and that I have "ammunition", and to talk to me would, in part, be an admittance of their guilt. They have been in touch with many others in my "dark ages" era, and I did not understand why. It made me question myself, for years. However, my therapist and others have told me that they knew what they were doing, and that it was wrong. How could an adult, even with no common sense, not know that calling a 12 year old virgin a whore as well as calling her deceased birth mother one, screaming at all of us, shaming us to the breaking point, force us to say and do incredibly degrading things, and all of the crap that they pulled, was not wrong, and was only out of 'good intent'. I can't, and don't see that, and I don't think I will ever be convinced otherwise. These people had major issues of their own, and they vomited those issues all over the kids. My therapist, who has an excellent reputation and has been a licensed psychologist as well as a child welfare advocate for over 37 years, told me this, "Plain and simple, those people are Sociopaths". Some may not agree. I do. Here is the response letter to Alex:
Mr. Bitz,
cc: Sharon Bitz
"I am so very sorry you have to deal with the prospect of coming down from your cushy, “fluffy cloud”, and enter the “real world”. I understand the thought is very frightening, almost as frightening as having you and the other staff in my face, telling-no, screaming at-me that I was “a whore, a slut, a liar, a spoiled brat, useless, manipulative…etc.” and that I was “so worthless that not only [my] birth parents didn’t want me, but the parents that adopted [me] didn’t want me either”. A whore? At 12 years old, still a virgin? C’mon. I’m sorry, this may be graphic, but I thought that a “blow job” was actually blowing, as in blowing out a candle, on a guy’s penis. The one incidence of getting “out of agreement” with a boy, 4 years my senior, and did not involve any form of penetration. I know of many who participated in more severe forms of being “out of agreement”, yet did not deem it necessary to confess. Yet I was the manipulative whore, at 12? Please.
Speaking of adoption, it seems that you all changed your tune. All of a sudden, there is this collaboration with the Kinship Center to give extra care to those who are adopted. “Adoptive children wonder why they were placed for adoption in the first place and can struggle with feeling worthy and good-enough, especially during the teenage years when it's natural for them to assert themselves as unique individuals," says Bitz. "We can help them work through their feelings of loss […]. So, let me get this straight: you deemed it appropriate, even “therapeutic” to call me worthless, time and time again, using my adoption as “proof” (in fact, that was my cloak in the Castle, WORTHLESS). Then, all of a sudden, Sharon preaches about the issues of self worth plaguing adoptees, and MBA’s special care and attention to adoptees. “According to Bitz and others, the teenage years present daunting developmental obstacles for children of adoption and their families.” Hmmm.
I came to MBA a scared, depressed, self loathing 12 year old girl, one who would look in the mirror and tell herself how worthless and ugly she was. One who attempted suicide 3 times before arriving there. Whether they were calls for help or attention or not, at 10-12 years old I hated myself so much that I wanted to die. That is a problem. But in your eyes, it was all a ploy to get attention, or maybe a pair of new shoes or something. That I was “playing poor me”, being a “victim”. You gave me too much credit, sir. At 10 years old, I did not have the capacity, nor the intention of anything other than escaping the pain I was in. I suppose that was too simple for you. You seemed to want more soap opera-like drama. Yet, I couldn’t give that to you, and that seemed to make you and your staff even more angry, even more vicious, even more abusive. Yes, I said abusive. The State of Oregon agrees, along with top professionals at Stanford University, Davis University, Lucille Packard Children’s Hospital, of whom I have personally spoken with, among many, many others, all of whom agree that the MBA curriculum and staff engaged in “atrociously” abusive behavior.
It’s almost sad to see your “project” your anger towards me and others, and not practice the “tools” that MBA has been preaching for 20 years. The snide sarcasm oozing out of your comment to me on the board is unmistakable, and honestly, a bit childish. Yes, “Sarcasm and Cynicism is the result of broken dreams”. I understand, your dream is broken. I’m also reminded of my favorite, “The Liar’s Punishment is not the he/she is not believed, but that he/she cannot believe anyone else.” Read the articles: ‘Unsurprisingly, [Sharon] Bitz attacked the validity of the report.’ “We know that some current students have made a conscious decision to lie about our school, hoping that it will be closed as a result, and that they would then be sent back home," Bitz told TIME. "We would never ask a student to give a lap dance," Bitz told the paper. Oh really? C’mon now. "All methods of therapy are done in a supportive atmosphere with trained professionals and the intent to raise self-awareness and self-worth," said Bitz. Then what’s with the constant reinforcement of telling young kids that they are worthless? What is happening here is, among other things, called Justice. For those who are more spiritually inclined, it’s called Karma. Whether it is because you truly believe you are being falsely accused, stripped of your dignity, or because deep, deep down you know that you went a bit overboard, yet your punishment does not fit the crime, you are going through a very similar process that some of us, the students, went through at MBA. It’s a bit like you have no voice, isn’t it? Like you are screaming inside and no one is listening, right? Like the “powers that be” don’t understand you, won’t listen to you, and are convinced you are something that you are not, right? I know that feeling very well, as do many others that went to MBA.
I am glad that some students had positive, life changing experiences at your school. For those of whom credit MBA with saving their lives, I tip my hat to them. My experience, however, was soul-killing, nightmare-producing, self-esteem-stripping, and, to put it in layman’s terms, utterly horrible. I made great friends. I am really good at finding relevant quotes in any given situation. I went to London. I…well…hmmm…I think that’s about it for the “good” part of it. Oh, I liked the hiking and cross-country skiing as well.
Again, I am sorry that you are fearful of joining the rest of the unemployment-line-standing real world. I’m guessing, however, that you have some nice money to sit on from the near $80,000 tuition per student, per year. Or at least ASSPEN-oh, sorry, that’s 1 ‘S’-is giving you a nice pension for your troubles. Yes, I believe sarcasm and cynicism, when used appropriately, helps to ease the pain of those broken dreams; for me, at least, many of them being broken by MBA. And I think sarcasm is just funny (think Steve Carrell, John Stewart, Stephen Colbert).
Here’s some quotes you might want to consider. If you would like to look up more, brainyquote.com and thinkexist.com are great quote sites.
“Child abuse casts a shadow the length of a lifetime.”~Herbert Ward
“What is evil? Killing is evil, lying is evil, slandering is evil, abuse is evil, gossip is evil: envy is evil, hatred is evil, to cling to false doctrine is evil; all these things are evil.”~Buddha
“Anyone entrusted with power will abuse it if not also animated with the love of truth and virtue, no matter whether he be a prince, or one of the people.”~Jean de La Fontaine
“When predominant selfishness and conceit there is no attachment to self or anything else.”~Aesop
“Be impeccable with your word”~Don Miguel Ruiz (The 4 Agreements author)
“Little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes”~Friedrich Nietzsche
Gosh, reading this over again, I realize that this was just the tip of the ice berg. So yes, I am sitting here, rejoicing with many others.
Good luck, sir. I hope that your re-entry into the “real world” goes a bit more smoothly than mine did."
I may post the first letter, the 'Abuse Part 1' letter later, as I become more comfortable with this site. It is comforting and cathartic to have people here that actually understand and can relate to what I went through.
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I'm not even sure what I meant by incapable because it is so hard to read other people's minds and know their true intentions.
I guess if I had to describe what I meant, it would have to incorporate several factors.
These were quacks. They had no training to be doing any of this stuff. The ones who were part of the system way back when, who founded these schools all came out of existing programs like CEDU and Rocky Mountain Academy. They considered people like Mel Wasserman and all the later School Directors to be gods, and they took what they said as gospel. So you could argue, they were not too bright to begin with, many if not most of them had criminal backgrounds, drug and alcohol issues and were probably easily manipulated. And as they started working the program from their end, as staff, they had to go in to it figuring it was good stuff. Sure, many might have done it initially for the paycheck, but you have to consider many of them probably weren't too knowledgeable about any of it enough to question what they were doing. We are talking about people with little to no education, college or even High School. These were not members of Mensa or Harvard graduates possessed of great intellects. They were hired through what I believe was a very simple process that looked for people who would go along with things without much questioning. It has been shown that they sent out special questionnaires asking specifically about their position on corporal punishments and so on. Their answers were then used to gauge them. I think to gauge them on whether they would be able to look the other way when they saw what their instincts might tell them was abuse. Think of police officers. Many officers today are fully complicit in brutalizing citizens, using tasers in an inappropriate manner and then covering it up afterward, each officer providing cover for the others. And I have known quite a few police officers and they made it quite clear that there is a weeding-out process whereby the police don't want holier-than-thou types who are going to mess with the system they enjoy. It's not that people don't try and become good cops, but that once in, their ability to do good is hampered by those who prefer a different system, one without accountability, one that reinforces their feeling of power. Are there good cops? Sure. Were there good staff members? Yes. Everyone agrees that each program had staff that were "better" than others. But did those staff who were better, speak out? No. And you have to ask why? I think it is because their moral compass was already not functioning too well before they got hired and after being hired the program itself screwed with it even more. Much as we were screwed with. There was so much psychobable going on, and I think it was designed to keep us in line as much as to keep them in line. It was about control and getting people to buy in. And I think staff bought in.
So my argument here, is that yes, some certainly had to know it was abuse and recognized it as such, though they stayed quiet and didn't rock the boat or lose the paycheck. But I also think there are those who are more prone to being bullies, enjoy power, like to exercise it over others and in such a situation, that kind of setting, seeing that there is no accountability, can go way overboard. Which I think is what happened. Did they know what they were doing was abuse? Maybe. But I think some of them, likely the ones who were "Power Staff" really believed like Alex and Sharon seem to, that everything they did was right. And from my experience at Rocky Mountain Academy back in the mid 80's, this was the culture they created for themselves. One where they had their own Gods or Guru's, people they looked up to and then wanted to emulate and become. They fed off each others latest psychobable notions of how to fix kids. They came up with one catch phrase after another to hurl at teens. Basically it was made up as they went along, gradually becoming more and more abusive I think as they refined it, almost working in competition to outdo each other and come up with the killer themes for Raps or Propheets/Life Steps. They wanted to be Top Dog. Not all of them wanted it, but many of them sought the power. The environment they created, based on the strange ideas of Mel Wasserman, the Synanon, LifeSpring and EST cultures and their own limited imaginations was one that reinforced action over accountability. And eventually I think they just saw everything they did as right and proper and good, that they could not commit any wrongdoing because all they did was righteous. So maybe in the beginning, they might have been able to see abuse and be capable of questioning it, but eventually I feel they no longer could.
And then think of the context. These were people telling themselves they were saving kids. They fashioned themselves as heroes. And in doing so, put themselves on a pedestal and patted each other on the backs for the good they believed they were dishing out. And beliefs are a hard thing to discard once you've held them long enough. So Alex may eventually come around to seeing that he was abusing people for years now that he has been told by the State of Oregon that this was the case. I don't think he could ever accept it coming from a former student, because he probably can't accept right now that his power is gone. He held so much power and authority over you and others that he is in denial about the actions he took. And Sharon suggesting that a few bad kids just wanted to lie to get it all shut down so they could go home and do more drugs and party is the same thing. These people were so deep in to a self-reinforcing atmosphere that rewarded them for basically creating greater levels of abuse, coming up with radical, yet totally unfounded methods for dealing with troubled teens. This was what they were used to. They became the guru's with all the answers. Creating it all themselves, just as God created the universe, the Alex's and Sharon's felt they were Gods creating something amazing and powerful and helpful and that's how they saw themselves. I don't think they were capable of seeing themselves in any other way. They truly thought they could do no wrong and that is why they can't accept that they did do wrong. The State of Oregon clearly hasn't convinced them. Or... It is possible they don't want to admit anything because the allegations of abuse could be followed by lawsuits?
And can you imagine what it would feel like to suddenly realize you did abuse hundreds or even thousands of teens? To realize you were a monster? That kids who later committed suicide may have done so because of things you did to them? What would a normal person, capable of self-reflection do upon realizing this?
By the way, before and after Rocky Mountain Academy I worked in a Direct Care Home for Autistic Children. After a few months I saw a fellow staff member physically abuse a child. Actual injury. I called the police and filed a report and lost my job the next day. Of course the child was incapable of speech, so the officers investigating could not understand how to conduct an interview to determine if injury or assault had taken place. But whereas such homes and staff are required by Federal Law to report any suspected abuse, and I did so, reporting it doesn't always work and getting fired is often quite likely. And I don't think it would have been any different at any of these programs, most of which are not covered by Federal Laws and certainly little state oversight.
Also, I would be happy to share my reunion story with you. It was pretty damn cool. And the first time in my life I ever experienced unconditional love.
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Perhaps, had there been a licensed psychologist actively participating in the program, that individual would have more knowledge of the laws, and therefore prevented some of the abuse from happening. Do you think it was an oversight or accident that the licensed party never attended lifesteps or groups?
I agree with this, thanks for the information. I believe this was part of my question .....was how much professional (licensed) oversight is needed? We certainly couldn’t expect there to be 10 Therapists covering each group break out. But if the therapists that they did have were given more authority and access to the day to day operations then many of these abuses would be avoided. As far as staying up all night, shovelling snow etc. I don’t see this as abusive as long as it is not excessive. Better oversight would keep these reasonable. The yelling and screaming should be handled by letting go the staff who participate and/or encourage this type of behavior.
...
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I wouldn't put too much weight on anything Whooter says. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) He lies a lot and has a financial stake in programs.
Specifically, he uses Juvenile Justice funds to put kids convicted of crimes who were in jail into Aspen programs where they can mingle freely with your children while receiving no therapy and have nobody watching them, like the kid from MBA who raped a little girl there due to the lack of supervision and mixing convicted criminals with more or less normal kids.
He has no education or background in psychology and has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. he just tries to spin things to look "less bad" by providing false analogies, false testimony (posting as dozens of personas) and false "facts and figures" that were generated by marketing teams instead of clinicians. He's a phony and should not be listened to for any advice or opinion.
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The yelling and screaming should be handled by letting go the staff who participate and/or encourage this type of behavior.
Well, then... I gather you would be referring to the school founders and chief execs, eh? And Oregon done did that, by "letting them go," that is. So to speak. :D
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I wouldn't put too much weight on anything Whooter says. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) He lies a lot and has a financial stake in programs.
[...]
He has no education or background in psychology and has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. he just tries to spin things to look "less bad" by providing false analogies, false testimony (posting as dozens of personas) and false "facts and figures" that were generated by marketing teams instead of clinicians. He's a phony and should not be listened to for any advice or opinion.
Actually, I have been reading some--ok, actually way too many--of his posts, and I appreciate his comments. It only proves my opinion (along with many others) that these people, are sociopaths http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathic_personality_disorder , incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, from most of the staff who run these programs to the money-hungry corporations that control them. In fact, ASPEN is a branch from Mitt Romney's CRC Health (see http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091115/NEWS0107/911150428/-1/rss )
"CRC Health
In 2006, Aspen Education Group was purchased by the even larger CRC Health Group, an arm of the Mitt Romney-founded private investment firm Bain Capital Inc. Since the merger, though, CRC’s performance has been lackluster."
For anyone who claims to be a parent, or care about kids, to even consider posting some of the posts that this guy has, i.e. typing "lol" in a thread about a child's death-- http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29128&p=350434#p350434 and taking the focus away from the fact that a child died, one of many, in one of these programs, is disgusting. Like I said, it proves my point. Sociopath.
So let him post. Perhaps the moderators can come up with some kind of warning label attached to his posts, like WARNING: Posted By Industry Idiot!
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I wouldn't put too much weight on anything Whooter says. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) He lies a lot and has a financial stake in programs.
[...]
He has no education or background in psychology and has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. he just tries to spin things to look "less bad" by providing false analogies, false testimony (posting as dozens of personas) and false "facts and figures" that were generated by marketing teams instead of clinicians. He's a phony and should not be listened to for any advice or opinion.
Actually, I have been reading some--ok, actually way too many--of his posts, and I appreciate his comments. It only proves my opinion (along with many others) that these people, are sociopaths http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathic_personality_disorder , incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, from most of the staff who run these programs to the money-hungry corporations that control them. In fact, ASPEN is a branch from Mitt Romney's CRC Health (see http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091115/NEWS0107/911150428/-1/rss )
"CRC Health
In 2006, Aspen Education Group was purchased by the even larger CRC Health Group, an arm of the Mitt Romney-founded private investment firm Bain Capital Inc. Since the merger, though, CRC’s performance has been lackluster."
For anyone who claims to be a parent, or care about kids, to even consider posting some of the posts that this guy has, i.e. typing "lol" in a thread about a child's death-- http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29128&p=350434#p350434 and taking the focus away from the fact that a child died, one of many, in one of these programs, is disgusting. Like I said, it proves my point. Sociopath.
So let him post. Perhaps the moderators can come up with some kind of warning label attached to his posts, like WARNING: Posted By Industry Idiot!
Thank you Enola. There was a discussion awhile back where people here were adamant that Educational consultants couldn’t possible tell if a child had ODD or ADHD, or any disorder without first meeting the child and many here felt it was criminal that they place kids in programs based on such little information and knowledge of the child. But you have shown that this type of diagnostics is typical and accepted here on fornits.
...and on top of that you are suggesting that I be labelled somehow to warn people about what “you” have decide I am. I bet you would be the first one to cry a river if you had to wear a sign around your neck in a program reading “Sociopath” or “Whore” etc. . But this is your first order of business if you gained the power seat.
You seem to be no better than those you criticize in the program......Interesting isn’t it?
...
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(Whooter has proved himself invalid)
C'mon back buddy. We know it's scary to you but believe it or not there are people that care about you getting well and feeling good about yourself.
If you can't commit to the whole program what can you commit to? 2... 3 posts? I know you can do that.
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We're right over here when you want to take a look at yourself Whooter.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&p=353043#p353043 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&p=353043#p353043)
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I wouldn't put too much weight on anything Whooter says. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625) He lies a lot and has a financial stake in programs.
[...]
He has no education or background in psychology and has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. he just tries to spin things to look "less bad" by providing false analogies, false testimony (posting as dozens of personas) and false "facts and figures" that were generated by marketing teams instead of clinicians. He's a phony and should not be listened to for any advice or opinion.
Actually, I have been reading some--ok, actually way too many--of his posts, and I appreciate his comments. It only proves my opinion (along with many others) that these people, are sociopaths http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathic_personality_disorder , incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, from most of the staff who run these programs to the money-hungry corporations that control them. In fact, ASPEN is a branch from Mitt Romney's CRC Health (see http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091115/NEWS0107/911150428/-1/rss )
"CRC Health
In 2006, Aspen Education Group was purchased by the even larger CRC Health Group, an arm of the Mitt Romney-founded private investment firm Bain Capital Inc. Since the merger, though, CRC’s performance has been lackluster."
For anyone who claims to be a parent, or care about kids, to even consider posting some of the posts that this guy has, i.e. typing "lol" in a thread about a child's death-- http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29128&p=350434#p350434 and taking the focus away from the fact that a child died, one of many, in one of these programs, is disgusting. Like I said, it proves my point. Sociopath.
So let him post. Perhaps the moderators can come up with some kind of warning label attached to his posts, like WARNING: Posted By Industry Idiot!
Thank you Enola. There was a discussion awhile back where people here were adamant that Educational consultants couldn’t possible tell if a child had ODD or ADHD, or any disorder without first meeting the child and many here felt it was criminal that they place kids in programs based on such little information and knowledge of the child. But you have shown that this type of diagnostics is typical and accepted here on fornits.
...and on top of that you are suggesting that I be labelled somehow to warn people about what “you” have decide I am. I bet you would be the first one to cry a river if you had to wear a sign around your neck in a program reading “Sociopath” or “Whore” etc. . But this is your first order of business if you gained the power seat.
You seem to be no better than those you criticize in the program......Interesting isn’t it?
...
I believe she has cried enough about having to wear such signs or be labeled as such in these abusive programs. That's why she is a survivor. Normally I would say you missed the point of the thread yet again. However, by calling her a whore again, I would say you really did stick with the thread for once. Somehow it just doesn't improve your image. I guess because you like the idea of making girls cry and calling them whores. No, not a guess... I am certain that is the reason why your image is so poor.
I think people want to label you because you are clearly of the sort of ilk that would find such activity acceptable. As therapeutic. But the followup comments showed that everyone sees you for what you are. An industry hack, with no sense of empathy for the pain of others. To you it is a joke. To us, you are a joke. You do validate our points. Every time you post, people new to this site see what the industry represents. What you represent. The abuse you and they sell as therapy. All of your posts are about supporting continued abuse, or covering up abuse, or as someone just said, basically portraying abuse as minimal, just a few bad apples, or whatever mindless drivel of an excuse you can give to deflect criticism on the industry you make a living from. And of course there is the worn out "Blame the teens!" You love that one, don't you?
Oh, and don't forget to suggest that Enola faked those Alex letters. That's another favorite of yours. Or maybe suggest she prove they are authentic? I'm really surprised you didn't demand proof. But as usual, you did draw a dumb parallel by using another thread, with no link, to bolster a petty argument suggesting that programs trying to diagnose behavioral disorders over the phone or internet is in the same league with people identifying you as a blithering idiot and industry hack. It don't take a rocket surgeon to size you up. But a child being placed in to therapy should receive the best diagnosis by a well trained professional in person, and in every instance. No exceptions!
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Whooter should sit on the haircut chair and wear a sign that says Don't Trust Me. I'm A Lair. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625)
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I believe she has cried enough about having to wear such signs or be labeled as such in these abusive programs. That's why she is a survivor. Normally I would say you missed the point of the thread yet again. However, by calling her a whore again, I would say you really did stick with the thread for once. Somehow it just doesn't improve your image. I guess because you like the idea of making girls cry and calling them whores. No, not a guess... I am certain that is the reason why your image is so poor.
Ha,Ha,Ha you are a bit thin skinned my man. No one called her a whore.... here let me refresh...“ I bet you would be the first one to cry a river if you had to wear a sign around your neck in a program reading “Sociopath” or “Whore” etc. .”. As usual you heard only what you wanted to. RMA,With Your great deductive skills you should join my personal troll and add this one to his list...
Here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625)
I think people want to label you because you are clearly of the sort of ilk that would find such activity acceptable. As therapeutic. But the followup comments showed that everyone sees you for what you are. An industry hack, with no sense of empathy for the pain of others. To you it is a joke. To us, you are a joke. You do validate our points. Every time you post, people new to this site see what the industry represents. What you represent. The abuse you and they sell as therapy. All of your posts are about supporting continued abuse, or covering up abuse, or as someone just said, basically portraying abuse as minimal, just a few bad apples, or whatever mindless drivel of an excuse you can give to deflect criticism on the industry you make a living from. And of course there is the worn out "Blame the teens!" You love that one, don't you?
Again, no facts, no links, just your perception of me. See I push for facts and this is something that bothers the crap out of you. You want people to just take your word for everything. If a kid commits suicide 5 ...10 years out you are so itching to blame some program he attended 10 years ago that you ignore the events leading up to the kids death. You are so biased and void of facts that anyone reading here for the first time can spot it.
Oh, and don't forget to suggest that Enola faked those Alex letters. That's another favorite of yours.
Wow you are pissed!!
Or maybe suggest she prove they are authentic?
Oh no!! We should not ask that!!! We reserve that for those for the pro-program posts..lol. We never question a survivors story!!!!!! Watch your mouth RMA Survivor.
I'm really surprised you didn't demand proof. But as usual, you did draw a dumb parallel by using another thread, with no link, to bolster a petty argument suggesting that programs trying to diagnose behavioral disorders over the phone or internet is in the same league with people identifying you as a blithering idiot and industry hack. It don't take a rocket surgeon to size you up.
So sociopath is easier to diagnose than ADHD?..... you are convincing me with your vast knowledge RMA... lol
But a child being placed in to therapy should receive the best diagnosis by a well trained professional in person, and in every instance. No exceptions!
Agreed, but some here like yourself believe you can do it thru the internet. (no link needed!) We have come full circle.
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Whooter you have proved yourself invalid. Your behavior contradicts your beliefs. You are ill, and I really can help you. Come on back.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&start=15 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&start=15)
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I didn't mention or blame a suicide 5 to 10 years out on any program. Where did you get that quote from? So you are the one bringing up claims with no links to support them, just your word that I have said such things. Gee, what a surprise. I didn't have links, because I wasn't linking to anything. Nothing I said in my post required a link.
By mentioning whore to her in a thread where she declared she was labeled as one, is the same thing as calling her a whore. It shows you have no empathy, you can't think about the abuse you cause to others and simply don't care that your words might hurt her.
And we label you because we can. We can make our own judgments of you. That is called an opinion. Anyone can come to a conclusion based on what you write whether it is nonsense or of some value. And I have. As have many who post here. The general consensus seems to be that you are a heartless jerk, who has no concept of sensitivity for others feelings, who cheer leads for programs on a site obviously populated by survivors who don't hold the programs in a positive light. Nobody here thinks you are going to change your stripes. Nobody here really cares. You love attention, and we give it to you. As I said, every time you post, it is great advertising for us about how abusive the industry is because you are their cheer leader. I wouldn't want you to ever stop posting here. Others might want you to leave, but I have decided your presence here just makes our jobs easier.
It really bothered you that I would come to her defense. That I can see that your words would be hurtful when you cannot. That others can show empathy for the feelings and emotions of people who express difficult feelings when you are unable to do so. That you cannot understand that even the use of the word whore in reference to her is insulting and cruel. Sociopath didn't bother me. That was just another label you wanted to see her wear. Along with whore. Where you got it from? It's part of your sick and twisted mind. You chose sociopath for her, because one insult is not enough for you. A woman comes to this site, tells a sad story, and your response is to make fun of her crying, make fun of her being labeled, make fun of her pain. Every survivor story is a joke to you. All survivors stories you try and portray as happening decades after leaving the schools even when the story is told as happening during the program. It's always about blame with you. Just like the programs. How ironic. You truly would enjoy watching young girls crying in a chair after being called a whore, wouldn't you? You would want to be the one calling her that, wouldn't you? You would revel in her pain and anguish, her fear as she looked around wondering if anyone else thought the same thing, wouldn't you? We have a label for that as well. It is called sadism. You enjoy causing pain to others. And then laughing about it.
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I didn't mention or blame a suicide 5 to 10 years out on any program. Where did you get that quote from? So you are the one bringing up claims with no links to support them, just your word that I have said such things. Gee, what a surprise. I didn't have links, because I wasn't linking to anything. Nothing I said in my post required a link.
Exactly, sucks doesn’t it. Do you think links are important? or only for the other person?
By mentioning whore to her in a thread where she declared she was labeled as one, is the same thing as calling her a whore. It shows you have no empathy, you can't think about the abuse you cause to others and simply don't care that your words might hurt her.
See this is how your mind works. No one called her a whore, you just read it that way because you cant see past your own bias. I was called a sociopath because she read it somewhere else, who cares?
And we label you because we can.
Oh, thats comforting. I guess we can all believe what you say now.
Who gave you the power?
We can make our own judgments of you. That is called an opinion. Anyone can come to a conclusion based on what you write whether it is nonsense or of some value. And I have. As have many who post here. The general consensus seems to be that you are a heartless jerk, who has no concept of sensitivity for others feelings, who cheer leads for programs on a site obviously populated by survivors who don't hold the programs in a positive light. Nobody here thinks you are going to change your stripes. Nobody here really cares. You love attention, and we give it to you. As I said, every time you post, it is great advertising for us about how abusive the industry is because you are their cheer leader. I wouldn't want you to ever stop posting here. Others might want you to leave, but I have decided your presence here just makes our jobs easier.
If I left then fornits would lack balance and people like yourself would try to convince the world that every kid that committed suicide did it because they either went to a program, were going to go to a program or were thinking about a program. By labelling these kids the way you do you are disgracing them and using their death to support your cause. You have no idea why a child takes their own life but you have no problem using their death and degrading their surviving family to spread your hatred. It is so absurd that I find it funny sometimes and with your perfect radar you cant see that I am laughing at you.
It really bothered you that I would come to her defense. That I can see that your words would be hurtful when you cannot. That others can show empathy for the feelings and emotions of people who express difficult feelings when you are unable to do so. That you cannot understand that even the use of the word whore in reference to her is insulting and cruel. Sociopath didn't bother me. That was just another label you wanted to see her wear. Along with whore. Where you got it from? It's part of your sick and twisted mind. You chose sociopath for her, because one insult is not enough for you. A woman comes to this site, tells a sad story, and your response is to make fun of her crying, make fun of her being labeled, make fun of her pain. Every survivor story is a joke to you.
She came at me to attack and called me a sociopath and I responded by asking her how it would feel to label her a whore, sociopath etc..... but see you missed all of that because you wanted to see me as the evil one who attacks people. Attacking a program parent doesn’t really matter to you, you showed no empathy and never stepped in to say whoa... you shouldn’t call whooter a sociopath, he didn’t do anything to you...... You only stand up for one point of view?
All survivors stories you try and portray as happening decades after leaving the schools even when the story is told as happening during the program. It's always about blame with you. Just like the programs.
Wow, you are missing a lot of links there. I guess you expect everyone to just believe you lol.. remember?
How ironic. You truly would enjoy watching young girls crying in a chair after being called a whore, wouldn't you? You would want to be the one calling her that, wouldn't you? You would revel in her pain and anguish, her fear as she looked around wondering if anyone else thought the same thing, wouldn't you? We have a label for that as well. It is called sadism. You enjoy causing pain to others. And then laughing about it.
Those are your words RMA lol ... now I am a sociopath and a sadist!! See what I mean? And people here get pissed and cry foul if a trained Educational consultant can recognize ODD, ADHD or other problems without meeting the child. Does it work both ways?
Think about it
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Whooter, you are not really dealing with your issues. It's obvious you carry around alot of anger, it's time to deal with that in a safe way. I am here to help, you should take advantage of that. I really don't understand why this scares you so much. What are you so afraid of?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&p=353083#p353083 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&p=353083#p353083)
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Whooter should sit on the haircut chair and wear a sign that says Don't Trust Me. I'm A Lair. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29342&start=120#p352625)
Yeah, Whooter is a huge liar. And he gets all ragey constantly. He has a lot of anger issues. And an extensive criminal record he wants to avoid talking about too.
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Don't believe Whooter's ficticious story about his 'daughter.' It has been well established that WHooter in fact had two sons, one killed himself after being forced into SUWS and ASR, the other estranged himself from Whooter and de4clared he believed Whooter was complicit in the death of his wife (the boy's mother) while the bot was locked up at HLA.
Whooter wants people to believe he's just a 'regular parent,' but lookee here:
Oh, boy. This quote probably goes further than any in the entire "indictment" of TheWho. This one is a zinger. You know how TheWho is always saying he "has no ties to the industry" or He's "just a regular parent"? Well, he he is admitting otherwise:
Oh no no no Cindy, you claimed there was a "long debate" and that it was decided that "we" were only going to look at TBS's as you define them.
Who specifically is "we"?
The debate was long, Bob... many wanted to start with "Wilderness data" and I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there, although wilderness is usually the inital phase of any decent TBS. So we went round and round....you, Bob have been a key player in collecting and presenting data on the entire industry and I have been focusing on small segments at a time.
I dont want to put names out there, people want to be anon's.
Whooter is evidently an expert on "where the money's at" in the Troubled Teen Industry. Why would he try to pass himself off as something other than an industry guy? That's not honest at all.
I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there...
That one quote really says it all, doesn't it? The 'regular parent' argument is totally false (Whooter is lying). Plus, 'who' spends five-plus years on a survivor message board trying to do damage control for programs, especially ASR and HLA (both confirmed to be abusive and HLA sued out of business).
Whooter's lame, fake, 'life story' just doesn't paass the smell test, folks.
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.
..and on top of that you are suggesting that I be labelled somehow to warn people about what “you” have decide I am. I bet you would be the first one to cry a river if you had to wear a sign around your neck in a program reading “Sociopath” or “Whore” etc. . But this is your first order of business if you gained the power seat.
You seem to be no better than those you criticize in the program......Interesting isn’t it?
I already did cry a river with the label whore around my neck, with snot bubbles, swollen face, the whole 9 yards. I did the same with the word worthless spray painted on a sheet wrapped around my body. The same when I sat at a desk facing the wall for 3 months...I am comfortably numb with labels.
Perhaps if you, yourself went to MBA, RMA, CEDU, ASPEN Ranch, etc., you would be numbed as well, as you would have endured not only the labeling of such words, the literal "wearing" of such labels, also the constant reminders of possessing these qualities by staff screaming these words to you, amidst 'profanity laced group sessions', staff encouraging your peers to call you such words, staff making you say these words, repeatedly to yourself in the mirror...staff, adults, of whom you are expected to trust, staff of whom you are expected to assume that everything they say is true, staff of whom you would never question, whether it be context, intention, authority, knowledge, training...
Sociopath is a perfect cloak for you, based on your words and actions on this board. Just like staff assumed worthless and whore where the perfect cloaks for me, at 12, based on what little they knew of me, using key points as ammunition--adoption, molestation, strained relationship with parents. You are obviously a cold, apathetic individual, in whatever your truth is. Whether it be the story you insist upon telling, that you have or had a daughter in one of these programs, that you are the grieving father of a son of whom went through one of these programs and died of an overdose, or just an industry official paid to be on these boards for damage control. I don't believe I need to spell out each individual instance. If you are the 2 former descriptions, feel free to PM me, and I will explain. But I am leaning more toward a lowly paid employee of whom the Industry hired to come on boards like these and turn attention away from the testimonies and truths of past students. You are probably paid a sad salary to come on here, picking your own disguise, for the sole purpose of wrapping your cold arm around a questioning parent, turning them away from reading the experiences of past students, most those experiences being horror-filled, and proverbially saying, "Come, come over here, let me show you the wonderful swimming pool we have."
Any of the 3 scenarios of your "truth" would point toward you having no conscience, an empty soul, and/or severely in need of therapy. But not tough love, as we went through. That would most likely turn you into a crazed lunatic. Perhaps you just need a hug, and a snot-bubble-filled crying session.
You seem to be very good at your job. From what I have seen, you have successfully turned attention away from students' pain filled postings, and into a Whooter bashing session. Bravo. If you are not a Sociopath, you certainly play one well here.
And as such, the above will be the last quote of yours I will use. I suggest others do the same. I came to this forum to express myself. To express my pain, for comfort from others and to comfort others.
However, if you or someone like you are going to portray the buzzing bee in the room, I can just find somewhere else to go. So you won. Congratulations. I hope you give yourself a big pat on the back. I'm sure you have driven many others away. You have done your job well. Just realize that those who see this and those you drive away eventually end up finding each other, "in droves", and take action on another platform, i.e. The Press, as in bad press, as in the worst nightmare for the Industry. Thank goodness for copy and paste. We can use you, with all your posts, as an appetizer of the ugly truth that is the abusive Troubled Teen Industry.
The money will eventually run out, and you, just as Alex, Bill, Sharon, and all of the others, will be "standing in the unemployment line", just like 80% of the rest of the country.
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I already did cry a river with the label whore around my neck, with snot bubbles, swollen face, the whole 9 yards. I did the same with the word worthless spray painted on a sheet wrapped around my body. The same when I sat at a desk facing the wall for 3 months...I am comfortably numb with labels.
Enola, why do you label other people that you do not know then? It lessens the credibility of your own story when you can so easily thrust the same label around other peoples necks so easily.
Sociopath is a perfect cloak for you, based on your words and actions on this board. Just like staff assumed worthless and whore where the perfect cloaks for me, at 12, based on what little they knew of me, using key points as ammunition--adoption, molestation, strained relationship with parents.
So in your own wards you are saying you are just as justified to call me a sociopath as the staff were of calling you a worthless whore. You base this on what little you know of me, just like the staff did. So if you felt that to be wrong why do you do it to others?
Then you go on to choose three scenarios which may describe me. So what you do know is at least 66% (2 out of 3) of those stories you read about me are lies... so what does that tell you about the stories here? Do you just get to choose one and deem it true and then proceed to judge me? If this is how you treat people then you have a long road ahead. Use you head, dont be a follower like RMA Survivor etal who are easily duped and manipulated into what others want him to believe by buying into false stories about programs and others.
Make up your own mind about people.
Good Luck.
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Let me help you label Whooter. Let's look at his own words, shall we?
Oh, boy. This quote probably goes further than any in the entire "indictment" of TheWho. This one is a zinger. You know how TheWho is always saying he "has no ties to the industry" or He's "just a regular parent"? Well, he he is admitting otherwise:
Oh no no no Cindy, you claimed there was a "long debate" and that it was decided that "we" were only going to look at TBS's as you define them.
Who specifically is "we"?
The debate was long, Bob... many wanted to start with "Wilderness data" and I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there, although wilderness is usually the inital phase of any decent TBS. So we went round and round....you, Bob have been a key player in collecting and presenting data on the entire industry and I have been focusing on small segments at a time.
I dont want to put names out there, people want to be anon's.
Whooter is evidently an expert on "where the money's at" in the Troubled Teen Industry. Why would he try to pass himself off as something other than an industry guy? That's not honest at all.
So, we can clearly see from Whooter's own words he goes to industry meetings to advise his industry peers where "the real money is, the TBS industry". What is his interest in where the money's at in the TTI? Why did he fly 1200 miles for an industry meeting about where the money is? Would any "regular parent" do this? Clearly, Whooter is part of the TTI. Specifically, he's John Reuben of STICC and he uses Jevenile Justice funds to put convicted kids from jail into Aspen programs to mingle unsupervised with more or less regular kids.
Don't be chased off, enola. Whooter has already been exposed, so we just need to keep reminding the newest readers that he's in the troubled teen business and that he's an unmitigated liar.
Seriously, what could be Whooter's explanation of the above quote? He never seems to address it (lols).
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...and on top of that you are suggesting that I be labelled somehow to warn people about what “you” have decide I am. I bet you would be the first one to cry a river if you had to wear a sign around your neck in a program reading “Sociopath” or “Whore” etc. . But this is your first order of business if you gained the power seat.
You seem to be no better than those you criticize in the program......Interesting isn’t it?
I already did cry a river with the label whore around my neck, with snot bubbles, swollen face, the whole 9 yards. I did the same with the word worthless spray painted on a sheet wrapped around my body. The same when I sat at a desk facing the wall for 3 months...I am comfortably numb with labels.
Perhaps if you, yourself went to MBA, RMA, CEDU, ASPEN Ranch, etc., you would be numbed as well, as you would have endured not only the labeling of such words, the literal "wearing" of such labels, also the constant reminders of possessing these qualities by staff screaming these words to you, amidst 'profanity laced group sessions', staff encouraging your peers to call you such words, staff making you say these words, repeatedly to yourself in the mirror...staff, adults, of whom you are expected to trust, staff of whom you are expected to assume that everything they say is true, staff of whom you would never question, whether it be context, intention, authority, knowledge, training...
Sociopath is a perfect cloak for you, based on your words and actions on this board. Just like staff assumed worthless and whore where the perfect cloaks for me, at 12, based on what little they knew of me, using key points as ammunition--adoption, molestation, strained relationship with parents. You are obviously a cold, apathetic individual, in whatever your truth is. Whether it be the story you insist upon telling, that you have or had a daughter in one of these programs, that you are the grieving father of a son of whom went through one of these programs and died of an overdose, or just an industry official paid to be on these boards for damage control. I don't believe I need to spell out each individual instance. If you are the 2 former descriptions, feel free to PM me, and I will explain. But I am leaning more toward a lowly paid employee of whom the Industry hired to come on boards like these and turn attention away from the testimonies and truths of past students. You are probably paid a sad salary to come on here, picking your own disguise, for the sole purpose of wrapping your cold arm around a questioning parent, turning them away from reading the experiences of past students, most those experiences being horror-filled, and proverbially saying, "Come, come over here, let me show you the wonderful swimming pool we have."
Any of the 3 scenarios of your "truth" would point toward you having no conscience, an empty soul, and/or severely in need of therapy. But not tough love, as we went through. That would most likely turn you into a crazed lunatic. Perhaps you just need a hug, and a snot-bubble-filled crying session.
You seem to be very good at your job. From what I have seen, you have successfully turned attention away from students' pain filled postings, and into a Whooter bashing session. Bravo. If you are not a Sociopath, you certainly play one well here.
And as such, the above will be the last quote of yours I will use. I suggest others do the same. I came to this forum to express myself. To express my pain, for comfort from others and to comfort others.
However, if you or someone like you are going to portray the buzzing bee in the room, I can just find somewhere else to go. So you won. Congratulations. I hope you give yourself a big pat on the back. I'm sure you have driven many others away. You have done your job well. Just realize that those who see this and those you drive away eventually end up finding each other, "in droves", and take action on another platform, i.e. The Press, as in bad press, as in the worst nightmare for the Industry. Thank goodness for copy and paste. We can use you, with all your posts, as an appetizer of the ugly truth that is the abusive Troubled Teen Industry.
The money will eventually run out, and you, just as Alex, Bill, Sharon, and all of the others, will be "standing in the unemployment line", just like 80% of the rest of the country.
Enola, dont let thewho drive you away. Try the CAN forum. Its filth will be deleted there.
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Enola, Just be a little cautious about what you read here. If people don’t provide a link to the original post then it may be a fake in an attempt to make someone look bad. It happens all the time.
See the post below as an example of what can be done.
Sorry for the negativity towards MBA. I just get frustrated sometimes and say things I don’t mean. The time I spent at MBA has been a tremendous help to me. They helped me to work out my issues, which without MBA I could have never accomplished that on my own
I understand,enola, I was helped at RMA too but I use fornits as a sound board to vent sometimes. We are all human. Hope you enjoy it here. Don’t let Whooter run you off. Besides him we are a good bunch of people who support each other.
So unless the above post can be traced back to an original with your avatar then it could be a fake (which the above one is).
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Don't believe Whooter's ficticious story about his 'daughter.' It has been well established that WHooter in fact had two sons, one killed himself after being forced into SUWS and ASR, the other estranged himself from Whooter and de4clared he believed Whooter was complicit in the death of his wife (the boy's mother) while the bot was locked up at HLA.
Whooter wants people to believe he's just a 'regular parent,' but lookee here:
Oh, boy. This quote probably goes further than any in the entire "indictment" of TheWho. This one is a zinger. You know how TheWho is always saying he "has no ties to the industry" or He's "just a regular parent"? Well, he he is admitting otherwise:
Oh no no no Cindy, you claimed there was a "long debate" and that it was decided that "we" were only going to look at TBS's as you define them.
Who specifically is "we"?
The debate was long, Bob... many wanted to start with "Wilderness data" and I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there, although wilderness is usually the inital phase of any decent TBS. So we went round and round....you, Bob have been a key player in collecting and presenting data on the entire industry and I have been focusing on small segments at a time.
I dont want to put names out there, people want to be anon's.
Whooter is evidently an expert on "where the money's at" in the Troubled Teen Industry. Why would he try to pass himself off as something other than an industry guy? That's not honest at all.
I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there...
That one quote really says it all, doesn't it? The 'regular parent' argument is totally false (Whooter is lying). Plus, 'who' spends five-plus years on a survivor message board trying to do damage control for programs, especially ASR and HLA (both confirmed to be abusive and HLA sued out of business).
Whooter's lame, fake, 'life story' just doesn't paass the smell test, folks.
So, because this can be traced directly to Whooter's [aka "TheWho" before he agreed to auction his account off and QUIT POSTING ON FORNITS, which he lied about - surprise, surprise] "avatar" it is therefore TRUE. Whooter is an industry man.
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Actually, I have been reading some--ok, actually way too many--of his posts, and I appreciate his comments. It only proves my opinion (along with many others) that these people, are sociopaths http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopathic_personality_disorder , incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, from most of the staff who run these programs to the money-hungry corporations that control them. In fact, ASPEN is a branch from Mitt Romney's CRC Health (see http://http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091115/NEWS0107/911150428/-1/rss )
"CRC Health
In 2006, Aspen Education Group was purchased by the even larger CRC Health Group, an arm of the Mitt Romney-founded private investment firm Bain Capital Inc. Since the merger, though, CRC's performance has been lackluster."
There's actually quite a bit about Aspen / CRC Health / Bain Capital connections that are distributed throughout the forum, though not so much recently... Two threads from amongst the many:
Big Fish CRC Trawls The Waters
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23141 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23141)[/list]
BAIN CAPITAL - Why Should You Care
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23153 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23153)[/list]
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Don't believe Whooter's ficticious story about his 'daughter.' It has been well established that WHooter in fact had two sons, one killed himself after being forced into SUWS and ASR, the other estranged himself from Whooter and de4clared he believed Whooter was complicit in the death of his wife (the boy's mother) while the bot was locked up at HLA.
Whooter wants people to believe he's just a 'regular parent,' but lookee here:
Oh, boy. This quote probably goes further than any in the entire "indictment" of TheWho. This one is a zinger. You know how TheWho is always saying he "has no ties to the industry" or He's "just a regular parent"? Well, he he is admitting otherwise:
Oh no no no Cindy, you claimed there was a "long debate" and that it was decided that "we" were only going to look at TBS's as you define them.
Who specifically is "we"?
The debate was long, Bob... many wanted to start with "Wilderness data" and I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there, although wilderness is usually the inital phase of any decent TBS. So we went round and round....you, Bob have been a key player in collecting and presenting data on the entire industry and I have been focusing on small segments at a time.
I dont want to put names out there, people want to be anon's.
Whooter is evidently an expert on "where the money's at" in the Troubled Teen Industry. Why would he try to pass himself off as something other than an industry guy? That's not honest at all.
I argued that the real money was in the TBS industry, so lets start there...
That one quote really says it all, doesn't it? The 'regular parent' argument is totally false (Whooter is lying). Plus, 'who' spends five-plus years on a survivor message board trying to do damage control for programs, especially ASR and HLA (both confirmed to be abusive and HLA sued out of business).
Whooter's lame, fake, 'life story' just doesn't paass the smell test, folks.
So, because this can be traced directly to Whooter's [aka "TheWho" before he agreed to auction his account off and QUIT POSTING ON FORNITS, which he lied about - surprise, surprise] "avatar" it is therefore TRUE. Whooter is an industry man.
Whooter, please explain your quote above. Who was at this meeting? Why were you there? Why are you concerned with "where the real money is, the TBS industry" if you are not involved with that industry? Please explain your comments.
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Whooter, you have been avoiding this question for a couple of weeks in three different threads. Why? Can't you explain your words for us?
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Yo, fuck the Who and fuck people who feed him. :feedtrolls:
Coming back to the original topic, Bill Hoffman said "it's not like this is holes." Except for it was exactly like holes. I literally had to dig holes every day for like eight hours a day for a couple of weeks. And I know this one kid who was given a concrete slab and just made to destroy it with a sledgehammer. It took him like two or three weeks to do it, and that was two or three weeks of not going to school and instead doing hard manual labor for eight hours a day. If he had wanted to go to school, he wouldn't have been allowed to. And that is fucking illegal. It's illegal to not allow students to go to school or to take away the ability to go to school as part of a punishment. It's one of the reasons the school was shut down for child abuse.