Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 12, 2008, 06:55:18 PM
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The article has pictures and videos and a comment section.
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_10438421 (http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_10438421)
Controversy spurs gentler approach in Utah wilderness-therapy camps
Multimedia: Take a trip with Aspiro; click on map for program profiles
By Lindsay Whitehurst and Brian Maffly
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 09/12/2008 02:41:54 PM MDT
Jessica suddenly stopped hiking.
"I can't do it," the 17-year-old panted, her dark hair damp and curled with sweat. The July sun blazed over the redrock of Glen Canyon National Recreation Area, pounding the teenagers hiking down the sage-covered sweep of Coyote Gulch.
"I'm seeing double. I have to stop," she said, her voice raw.
Liz Stika, a guide with wilderness therapy camp Aspiro, helped Jessica out of her 50-pound backpack and handed her a water bottle. "You are so much bigger than this," she said soothingly.
Jessica is one of hundreds of teens who annually pass through Utah's wilderness therapy programs, which thrive on the state's breathtaking and secluded public lands. Charging up to $30,000 for a stay of six to eight weeks, the industry contends immersion in nature - with a focus on self-sufficiency - helps teens who are estranged from their parents, battling substance abuse or coping with moderate mental illness.
The camps face continual controversy: Five teens died in Utah wilderness programs between 1990 and 2002, and a Utah teenager died in a Colorado program in 2007. A federal report released in October 2007 highlighted deaths, abuse and misleading marketing in camps and other residential-treatment programs across the country.
But Utah's 10 current programs say they have abandoned "boot camp" regimens tied to the abuses for a gentler, more targeted approach. They no longer welcome kids with violent criminal histories or severe mental illness. And they face some of the nation's toughest state rules, which include targets for backpack weights, hiking temperatures and calorie counts in menus.
Nearly all of Utah's camps say they have therapists with graduate degrees, and engage parents as well as the teens. Most say they minimize coercion - such as making a teen get out of bed or to carry his pack - in favor of "inviting" students to make positive choices.
Campers are separated from wayward friends, drugs and alcohol, and get regular therapy, exercise and healthful food. Generally, such a setting would help troubled teens, said Paul Florsheim, a psychology professor at the University of Wisconsin.
But proof that the camps create lasting change, Florsheim and others note, remains sparse.
Back on the redrock, Jessica took a deep breath and agreed to go on. Within minutes, she was grasping a rope and picking her way down a 12-foot drop to a dry riverbed below.
After two months of therapy at camp, she had revealed to her parents that a sexual assault by an acquaintance was behind her withdrawal and her new friendship with a drug dealer at home in Virginia.
"Being at Aspiro definitely helped me ... not let it control my life anymore," she said. "None of this is really about the hiking. It's about what you need to work on." Learning in nature: Teens at Hanna-based Aspiro get "adventure therapy" - mountain biking, rafting and rock climbing in Utah's "coolest" spots. While still physically demanding, the program offers modern comforts, such as nylon frame backpacks and propane stoves.
Overcoming physical limitations helps kids push past problems said Dan Lemaire, its 25-year-old head of instruction. "I don't think there's a place for primitive skills only."
But the rest of Utah's camps pitch hiking and survival skills - making a fire using a bow and arrow, setting traps for game -- as the best way wilderness can break through a teen's problems. The element of risk in being isolated in the desert makes therapy effective, said Andrew Powell, a field director for Outback Therapeutic Expeditions.
At Lehi-based Outback, kids build backpacks from sticks and leather, carve their own spoons from juniper and are given talismans to mark accomplishments.
Most of the teens in Utah camps are from affluent white families from around the country. Jason, a 17-year-old sent to Outback from Arizona, said his grades plummeted after he started smoking pot and lying to his parents. He had been in Utah for about six weeks when they arrived for a July reunion.
He called to them with his "bullroarer," a piece of wood swung on a string to communicate across open distances.
"I'm keeping mine forever. It's the happiest thing to swing that and know they'll be there," said Jason, a thin teen with intense brown eyes. "They saw me as a different person."
On an August day, the eight boys in Jason's group were working on therapy assignments, bathing and restocking their food. Between chores, they hollowed gourds for carrying water with tiny abrasive pebbles found at anthills.
The students were proud of simple things - their handmade Aboriginal didgeridoos; their ability to "bust a coal" - or start a fire with a drill-and-bow set, twirling a wooden peg into a board.
"It's a tenet of any ancient culture, whether it's a walkabout or vision quest. You send the adolescent out and they would learn from the trees, rocks and skies. It's enough for them to turn the corner of their past," Outback founder Rick Meeves said.
"This gets them away from all their distractions, the video games and from their failing environments, where there's nothing for them to listen to but the sound of their own voice," he said.
Do camps work? Research on long-term results for all types of residential treatment for youth is surprisingly scant, experts say.
Most research into wilderness therapy focuses on whether it improves the parent-child relationship, seen as a key factor in a teen's mental health.
Joanna Bettman, a University of Utah professor of social work, has tracked students at Aspen Achievement Academy, a Loa-based program where she first worked as a field counselor in 1994.
For kids without antisocial disorders or severe mental illness, studies indicate wilderness therapy does help that relationship, said Bettman, also clinical director at the Open Sky program in Durango, Colo.
Still, the results of her interviews with students - at admission and seven weeks later at discharge - were mixed.
Teens "got less angry with their parents, but they also perceived them to be less available to their needs," Bettman said.
The most comprehensive studies are the work of Keith Russell, an associate professor of physical education, health and recreation at Western Washington University. Industry, through its Outdoor Behavior Healthcare Research Cooperative, funds his research. But he emphasizes that he controls his data and how his findings are released, and he ensures they undergo peer review before publication.
Russell uses a standard social work questionnaire to gauge student and parent perceptions of the child's problems, from admission to two years after discharge. "At admission, kids are resistant to the idea that they have issues they need to work on," he said. "Parents ... tend to exaggerate issues."
But after treatment and as time passes, their perceptions begin to align, which suggests they are understanding one another better, he said.
Russell's research has shown teens who had been using drugs or alcohol are generally still using the substances one year after camp, although less frequently. That finding has spurred the industry to better focus its substance abuse treatment, he said.
About two-thirds of the teens in Utah programs have substance abuse issues, camp directors and researchers said. Most kids go on to some kind of aftercare, typically a therapeutic boarding school, a cycle that concerns critics.
Debating diagnosed teens: Although Bettman and Russell caution that wilderness therapy isn't helpful for all troubled teens, Utah camps claim to help children diagnosed with depression, bipolar disorder, eating disorders and other illnesses.
Michael Merchant, president of Monticello-based Wilderness Quest, believes wilderness therapy can help campers with mild to moderate mental illness deal with side issues, such as substance abuse or ruined relationships.
He also asserts its outdoor lifestyle can help tame behavior caused by chemical imbalances in a child's brain. "The right diet, exercise, getting up with the sun, will certainly help you chemically," he said.
At 15-year-old Red Cliff, based in Enterprise, clinical director Daniel Sanderson believes kids sometimes use a diagnosis as a crutch. He describes such a teen's mind-set:
"As soon as I encounter a situation that expects something beyond my abilities, all I have to [do is bring up] the abandonment issues or abuse issues and that will bring forth an cadre of individuals who will remove it," he said. "In spite of a diagnosis, the real problem is the difficulties they have experienced have allowed them to take a 'developmental vacation.' "
At camp, teens learn no one is going to carry their pack just because they are bipolar, Sanderson summarized.
But Florsheim, formerly at the University of Utah, said there is no reliable research on whether camps help children cope with mental illness, and questions the programs' long-term impact.
"Are you giving them the skills they can take with them when they go home? I'm skeptical of that," said Florsheim, who worked in a Florida camp as a young counselor 26 years ago.
Before arriving at Aspiro, 14-year-old Kayla was diagnosed with depression and attachment disorder. The redhead with a soft Southern-accented voice spent her early childhood in foster homes. She was adopted at age 8, but withdrew from her family and began cutting herself.
In camp, she found solace in the outdoors and her therapy sessions. She was "really excited" about an upcoming visit from her parents.
"But I'm kind of scared, too," she said, a feather tucked in her hair. "It'll be the first time my parents know I'm being genuine. ... I want to look them in the eyes and say, 'I love you' and for them to know I'm not faking it."
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Wow, very interesting. The only thing that I really would like to say about this, is this:
They claimed that they don't take kids with "severe mental illnesses" anymore there in Utah, but Then they claim that it can really help in kids with Bi-polar disorder. If that is what they really said, and truly mean, then I have a big newsflash for them: Bipolar disorder is a severe mental illness. In fact it is in the psychotic classification of mental Illnesses. Resource: DSM, which is basically a diagnostic tool (manual for lack of a better term) that psychologists and Psychiatrists use to diagnose their patients. The DSM stands for Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of mental disorders. In the case of bipolar disorder(also known as manic depression) is a serious medical illness that causes shifts in a person's mood, energy, and ability to function. Different from the normal ups and downs that everyone goes through, the symptoms of bipolar disorder are severe. Source: NIMH= National Institute of Mental Health. Bipolar disorder causes dramatic mood swings from overly "high" and/or irritable to sad and hopeless, and then back again, often with periods of normal mood in between. Severe changes in energy and behavior go along with these changes in mood. The periods of highs and lows are called episodes of mania and depression. They can result in damaged relationships, poor job or school performance, and even suicide.
“Manic-depression distorts moods and thoughts, incites dreadful behaviors, destroys the basis of rational thought, and too often erodes the desire and will to live. It is an illness that is biological in its origins, yet one that feels psychological in the experience of it; an illness that is unique in conferring advantage and pleasure, yet one that brings in its wake almost unendurable suffering and, not infrequently, suicide.”
“I am fortunate that I have not died from my illness, fortunate in having received the best medical care available, and fortunate in having the friends, colleagues, and family that I do.”
ACTUAL MEDICAL CARE IS NEEDED FOR PEOPLE WITH BIPOLAR DISORDER ,PEOPLE!!!! Medical, not boot camp, not wilderness therapy: MEDICAL CARE....REAL MEDICAL CARE
People reading this may ask themselves how I may know this so strongly as I do. I will tell you simply and plainly: I used to be married to it. I spent hours upon hours, days,even weeks at a time researching how to help him, how to save him from the awful disorder. Months trying to figure out how to "care" for him. I ended up having to commit him twice to save his life, which was pure emotional torture for me to have to do it, having no other choice. It was pure emotional torture for me to have to do that to him, and to another human being in general, considering I was in Kids Helping Kids, and know how that feels. I hated it but, he had not slept in five to six days straight, was visiting car dealerships claiming that he owns all of the cars on the lot, telling me that famous people were trying to get in touch with us, that fed-ex trucks were following him everywhere that he went, passing out from sleep deprivation on his sisters driveway to wake back up five minutes later to another manic fit of his only to drive from Northern KY to Dayton, Ohio in a mere matter of like 45 min., when normally that drive takes a good bit over and hour (which means he was travelling at extremely high speeds in the car), and then wanting me to let him drive our children around in the car with him. I said" I think not!"
Bipolar is nothing to sneeze at, and it is also something that cannot be cured by a wilderness program or boot camp.
regards,
-DP
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Bipolar is nothing to sneeze at, and it is also something that cannot be cured by a wilderness program or boot camp.
Good god, are people really stupid enough to believe otherwise?
Is it the flouride in the water making them dumb as a box of rocks?
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Wow, DP, sorry to hear that. Your husband seemed to have had a hard time of it. Hope he is doing better now. I have had friend’s siblings and their kids who were diagnosed with BP but their symptoms were not as severe as the ones you experienced. There are varying degrees of Bipolar and your husband (and those like him) would probably be diagnosed as severe or that end of the spectrum. Maybe teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness. But I agree severe cases should stay away from a program of this type.
It is good to see the wilderness programs changing and softening a bit due to parental feedback and media pressure. As these programs evolve over time we should continue to see a rise in success rates.
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teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness.
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Please explain how a wilderness program is supposed to help with bipolar disorder, exactly. Please also explain what qualifies you to make such claims.
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Be gentle with the guy. He already suffers enough from Tripolar Obsessive Compulsive Trolling Disorder.
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Please explain how a wilderness program is supposed to help with bipolar disorder, exactly. Please also explain what qualifies you to make such claims
Sorry, I could not begin to explain the specifics. What I normally do is speak with a professional, in the specific area of interest. Try to choose one who is good at translating the medical into layman’s terms.
If your son or daughter has bipolar I would suggest you speak to their paediatrician before considering placing them in a wilderness program (or doing anything on your own). There are a wide variety of medications which have been extremely effective in treating BipolarI, BipolarII, Cyclothymia and even reducing Rapid cycling which can be associated with some of the more extreme cases. There may be other conditions present which would make wilderness therapy a poor choice for your son/daughter.
Good luck and I hope this helps.
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No, it doesn't help explain the reasoning behind your claim. When you make statements such as "teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness", you had better be ready to back these claims up with some sort of proof, explanation, a theory, or personal experience. You provide none of these, which suggests you just randomly plucked this "fact" out of thin air.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... mary.shtml (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/child-and-adolescent-bipolar-disorder/summary.shtml)
No mention of wilderness from the NIMH concerneing adolescent bipolar treatment.
So, where exactly did you come up with this statement of yours?
Did you just make it up?
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The poster calling him or herself "TheWho" is really just a screen name created and kept going by the collective moderators and admins of Fornits in an effort to keep the post count up and the discussion going.... Thank you, that is all.
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Be gentle with the guy. He already suffers enough from Tripolar Obsessive Compulsive Trolling Disorder.
Thats what we call: TOCTD.
Aspen is working on a short 10 month program which has been very effective on this. You need to bring your own laptop, although they reformat the entire hard drive upon entering. At level one there is no internet access for 4 weeks...you have to carry a mouse or touch pad (your interface of choice) around with you everywhere you go. There are monitors everywhere you go but there is no way you can interface with them until you successfully complete your level.
At Level 2 you are allowed to gain limited access to one of the programs which has been loaded onto your laptop by Aspen. You can slowly start using a tutorial program which resides on Aspens new “intranet” AIA (Aspen Intranet Access) which is basically a complete clone of the internet only it has been cleansed of any offensive or unnecessary information. At this level you are allowed to chat with staff and discuss current events with the expectation that you stay on topic at all times. Other than this there is no communication to the outside world, (not even email to family members!!). The staff members then leave the room and they allow you to troll for 3 hours initially and then they shut down the server abruptly and everyone is scurried off into encounter groups to talk about how they are feeling. They dose each person differently and then send them back to their laptops. This is repeated for several months.
Level 3 is still in process and has not been successful to date. Over 80% of the patients moving up from Level 2 had immense hatred towards their staff members and a few staff were attacked and beaten severely with their laptops. So after over $100,000 was spent on research to resolve this issue they have decided the best solution is to make the laptops out of a more lightweight material which they presently having done, increasing the patient’s dosage and they are considering extending the program to 12 months.
so you can see they are making some headway into this area and are lobbying in Washington to have this recognized as a disorder and considered for the next DSM revision.
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No, it doesn't help explain the reasoning behind your claim. When you make statements such as "teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness", you had better be ready to back these claims up with some sort of proof, explanation, a theory, or personal experience. You provide none of these, which suggests you just randomly plucked this "fact" out of thin air.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... mary.shtml (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/child-and-adolescent-bipolar-disorder/summary.shtml)
No mention of wilderness from the NIMH concerneing adolescent bipolar treatment.
So, where exactly did you come up with this statement of yours?
Did you just make it up?
Yep. He sure did.
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TheWho, you failed to backup your statement in any way. It appears you did not even try, which makes me wonder how you come up with such unsubstantiated advice to give freely to the world. You are free to your opinions, but let's have a look at what the professionals have to say, shall we?
This is from the American Psychiatric Association, a peer reviewed professional journal. Psychiatrists are the people making the diagnosis of bipolar, so we can all agree that they have some idea what they are talking about.
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/23/6 (http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/23/6)
This is only an excerpt, read the full article by clicking on the link.
A report released by t he Government Accountability Office (GAO) in October identified thousands of allegations of patient mistreatment at "residential treatment programs" across the country.
The GAO report cited allegations of abuse, some of which involved patient deaths, at what the report refers to as residential treatment programs— such as "boot camps" and "wilderness therapy programs" that treat substance abuse and behavioral problems—between 1990 and 2007. The report did not define residential treatment programs other than describing them as "intended to provide a less-restrictive alternative to incarceration or hospitalization for youth who may require intervention to address emotional or behavioral challenges."
The allegations included reports of abuse and death recorded by state agencies and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) between 1990 and 2004. The allegations in the GAO report were detailed in pending civil and criminal trials involving hundreds of plaintiffs, along with claims of abuse and death posted online.
During 2005 alone, 33 states reported 1,619 staff members involved in incidents of abuse in residential programs, according to the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS). Critics of the programs estimate 10,000 to 20,000 children are enrolled in them each year.
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Petros Levounis, M.D., chair of APA's Council on Children, Adolescents, and Their Families, told Psychiatric News that addiction specialists have long thought that programs like those identified in the GAO report are much less effective in the treatment of addiction than therapeutic approaches based on positive motivation. The confrontational treatment approaches they use were abandoned by mainstream addiction programs 30 years ago after they were found ineffective.
"We tried this type of confrontation route and very strict discipline and found it simply doesn't work," said Levounis, director of the Addiction Institute of New York and chief of the Division of Addiction Psychiatry at St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals. "It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."
The report's findings that many programs have dangerous conditions and "tremendous side effects" are additional reasons for keeping children with co-occurring mental disorders away from such treatment approaches, he said.
The report echoes concerns raised by a 2006 study funded by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration of residential treatment facilities serving adolescent populations, which indicated that they often lacked comprehensive services for the participants, especially when other co-occurring illnesses were involved. For instance, almost all adolescent-focused, residential substance abuse treatment facilities conduct comprehensive substance abuse assessments. However, only half of those facilities also conduct comprehensive mental health assessments, which are recommended as part of an integrated treatment approach.
Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.
Levounis suggested a multipronged response to the findings, including regulatory changes to establish minimum quality assurance, that program participants have access to physicians and mental health professionals, and that there be an adequate patient-to-staff ratio.
"Also, all of us need to keep working to debunk the myth of harsh confrontation being the ultimate weapon against severe addiction," he said.
TheWho, do you now wish to retract your statement based on these findings? If not, please provide source material to support your claims, thank you.
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Lets go back and take a look:
...They claimed that they don't take kids with "severe mental illnesses" anymore there in Utah, but Then they claim that it can really help in kids with Bi-polar disorder
DP's description of what her husband went thru didn’t compare with what some people which I have encountered who had Bi-polar. If you look a little further into it you will find that bipolar covers an area from severe to mild. So when the program mentioned that they don’t accept kids with “Severe mental illnesses” this could include bi-polar depending on the child diagnosis. So kids with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness then kids with BipolarI or more severe cases of bipolar.
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Just when I think you can't be more of an asshole, you post again. Just give it up, Who. You've been bagged and tagged. Everyone sees you for exactly who you are.
Now go slink back under the rock you crawled out from. Better yet, call your daughter and beg her forgiveness, you pathetic excuse for a parent.
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Just when I think you can't be more of an asshole, you post again. Just give it up, Who. You've been bagged and tagged. Everyone sees you for exactly who you are.
Now go slink back under the rock you crawled out from. Better yet, call your daughter and beg her forgiveness, you pathetic excuse for a parent.
sorry to prove you wrong, but the facts are the facts. I was not rubbing it in. No need for personal attacks.
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So kids with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness then kids with BipolarI or more severe cases of bipolar.
How did you come to this conclusion? You say that "kids with Bipolar II may benefit from wilderness". How do you know this?
The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with your assertion. Since these are the same people making the diagnosis, I find it highly suspect that a non professional can advise parents on how to treat their bipolar child.
Let's read part of the article again.
"We tried this type of confrontation route and very strict discipline and found it simply doesn't work," said Levounis, director of the Addiction Institute of New York and chief of the Division of Addiction Psychiatry at St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals. "It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."
The report's findings that many programs have dangerous conditions and "tremendous side effects" are additional reasons for keeping children with co-occurring mental disorders away from such treatment approaches, he said.
Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.
The article makes no distinction between "severe bipolar" and "mild bipolar" as you claim. Mental illness is mental illness, right? I am still wondering how you came to such a conclusion, that wilderness programs are an effective treatment option for bipolar. You still have yet to answer this simple question.
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teens with BipolarII or Cyclothymia which is a milder form of bipolar may benefit a bit better from wilderness.
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Please explain how a wilderness program is supposed to help with bipolar disorder, exactly. Please also explain what qualifies you to make such claims.
I have yet to see him answer this simple, but very relevant question.
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Just when I think you can't be more of an asshole, you post again. Just give it up, Who. You've been bagged and tagged. Everyone sees you for exactly who you are.
Now go slink back under the rock you crawled out from. Better yet, call your daughter and beg her forgiveness, you pathetic excuse for a parent.
sorry to prove you wrong, but the facts are the facts. I was not rubbing it in. No need for personal attacks.
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Facts? What facts? And thank you in advance for the citations you'll undoubtedly provide for such, ahem....."facts".
I didn't think you were rubbing anything in, as you have nothing TO rub. But whatever you gotta tell yourself dude. The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you're trying to assuage your guilt. Damn, it must be overwhelming at times.
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I am still wondering how you came to such a conclusion, that wilderness programs are an effective treatment option for bipolar. You still have yet to answer this simple question.
Come on now...give the guy a break. You're gonna confuse him with those pesky SOURCED facts.
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sorry to prove you wrong, but the facts are the facts. I was not rubbing it in. No need for personal attacks.
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Facts? What facts?[/quote]
Well. He stated he presented facts to support his opinions... so most parents (who wouldn't have time to read the whole thread) would simply accept what he said as true. A few pages on, this exact same topic will be brought up again, you'll ask him to present facts, and he'll claim he already did "a few pages back" (but of course never link to any post). Big lie propoganda. Worked for Hitler (among others). Can't argue with results.
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If your son or daughter has bipolar I would suggest you speak to their paediatrician before considering placing them in a wilderness program (or doing anything on your own).
What a medical doctor has to say about wilderness programs claiming to treat depression. Peer reviewed and sourced.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001518.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001518.htm)
Adolescent depression
Benjamin W. Van Voorhees, MD, MPH, Assistant Professor of Medicine, Pediatrics and Psychiatry, The University of Chicago, Chicago, IL. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."
These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.
Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."
Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.
Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.
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They claimed that they don't take kids with "severe mental illnesses" anymore there in Utah, but Then they claim that it can really help in kids with Bi-polar disorder...
Okay lets look at it one more time. Going back and looking at DP post she says that they don’t take kids with “severe mental disorders” but they can help kids with bi-polar which she goes on to describe as severe based on her experience.
If you read up on Bi-polar you will find that it can be severe or mild. So the program can accept kids with bi-polar disorder and still meet the requirement of not accepting kids with severe mental disorders as long as the child has a mild form such as BipolarII or Cyclothymia. So their claim that they can help kids with bi-polar is valid and meets both criteria. So we could conclude that kids with a milder form of bi-polar would benefit better then say a kid with severe bi-polar, otherwise the wilderness would be excepting both mild and severe.
If you feel they would both benefit equally then that is open for debate. But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.
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But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.
Of COURSE they "feel" that way. It means more kids, which means more $$$$. Neither they nor you will provide any shred of proof of such a claim.
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The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with you TheWho. Which leads me back to my original question, what leads you to make a statement that counters their professional experience and advice? Why should parents trust you over the advice of doctors who specialize in adolescent psychiatry? I'm still waiting for a proper answer to this very simple inquiry.
You claim a milder form of bipolar would be treated effectively in a wilderness program. What qualifies you to make this claim?
This is what an adolescent psychiatrist has to say about the effectiveness of wilderness programs treating conduct disorder. Yet another professional, peer reviewed individual who disagrees with you TheWho. Please explain why I should trust you, over their professional advice.
Conduct disorder
Timothy A. Rogge, MD, private practice in Psychiatry, Kirkland, Washington. Also reviewed by David Zieve, MD, MHA, Medical Director, A.D.A.M., Inc.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000919.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000919.htm)
Treatment
Successful treatment requires close involvement of the child's family. Parents can learn techniques to help manage their child's problem behavior.
In cases of abuse, the child may need to be removed from the family and placed in a less chaotic environment. Treatment with medications or talk therapy may be used for depression and attention-deficit disorder, which commonly accompany conduct disorder.
Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.
If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs. They are not regulated in many states.
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So we could conclude that kids with a milder form of bi-polar would benefit better then say a kid with severe bi-polar, otherwise the wilderness would be excepting both mild and severe.
If you feel they would both benefit equally then that is open for debate. But as it stands now the program feels that the milder bipolar kids would benefit better and are not excepting all kids in this area.
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Only you have concluded that, TheWho, counter to the advice of the American Psychiatric Association, and many independent professionals and peer reviewed doctors.
"It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."
Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.
[/b]
On what basis do you claim these professionals are incorrect in their peer reviewed assessment?
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The American Psychiatric Association disagrees with you TheWho. Which leads me back to my original question, what leads you to make a statement that counters their professional experience and advice? Why should parents trust you over the advice of doctors who specialize in adolescent psychiatry? I'm still waiting for a proper answer to this very simple inquiry.
Parents should consult their pediatrician and never just trust anyone on the internet to make their final decision.
You claim a milder form of bipolar would be treated effectively in a wilderness program. What qualifies you to make this claim?
To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form. If they could both be treated just as effectively then the programs would be excepting both forms, but this particular program is not... read the OP.
This is what an adolescent psychiatrist has to say about the effectiveness of wilderness programs treating conduct disorder. Yet another professional, peer reviewed individual who disagrees with you TheWho. Please explain why I should trust you, over their professional advice.
Like I said, no one should trust information which is read on the internet. It is a great place to discuss issues, but I would consult your child’s doctor first. He is a professional and knows your child better than any of us do.
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To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form. If they could both be treated just as effectively then the programs would be excepting both forms, but this particular program is not... read the OP.
We hear you that you believe that to be true. What we're asking is if you have any peer reviewed studies or any facts at all to support that assumption. Especially in light of the studies that have been posted here today. Do you or do you not?
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To me it just makes sense that the milder form of bi-polar would be treated more effectively than the severe form.
See, that was't that difficult was it?
So, the reason why you claim that wilderness programs can treat "milder" forms of bipolar, is because "it just makes sense" to you.
I'm sure parents will take this advice for what it is worth. Thank you again for making your reasoning more clear to the rest of us.
Countless peer reviewed studies and professional advice vs. "it just makes sense to TheWho". Really difficult one there. :P
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See, that was't that difficult was it?
So, the reason why you claim that wilderness programs can treat "milder" forms of bipolar, is because "it just makes sense" to you.
You are close, it makes sense to me that milder forms can be treated more effectively than severe forms.
I'm sure parents will take this advice for what it is worth. Thank you again for making your reasoning more clear to the rest of us.
Your welcome. Sometimes it takes a few repeated posts to clarify a persons intent or reasoning. But it is worth the time in the end when an understanding is reached.
Countless peer reviewed studies and professional advice vs. "it just makes sense to TheWho". Really difficult one there
Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly and also speak with other parents who have had kids attend wilderness. I would not rely on internet forums like this one alone.
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You are close, it makes sense to me that milder forms can be treated more effectively than severe forms.
Your welcome. Sometimes it takes a few repeated posts to clarify a persons intent or reasoning. But it is worth the time in the end when an understanding is reached.
Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly and also speak with other parents who have had kids attend wilderness. I would not rely on internet forums like this one alone.
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And again, this thread is a perfect example of why nothing you say can be trusted and why people resent your presence here. Not only do you flat out lie, distort and twist pretty much everything that is said, but you go about it in such a condescending tone. No one is honestly 'thanking you', yet you feel compelled to throw in the little dig....'you're welcome'. And "you're close". And driving home YOUR point???? HA! No, it drives home the point that you state your opinions as fact and when you get called on it, you move the goalposts, set up strawmen and in general backpeddle all the way home.
I maintain that it shows how absolutely desperate you are to justify what you did to your daughter. When presented with clear and absolute facts you simply cannot or will not accept them because that would mean that you were really, really, really, really wrong in what you did to your family. I don't pity you, as the other poster suggested. I pity your daughter. I pity anyone who is forced to deal with you on a daily basis. I feel nothing but utter contempt for you and what you've done and what you continue to support in the face of so much evidence to the contrary.
You're an arrogant. smug little man who is crying out for attention. Again, maybe if you just fell to your knees and apologized to your daughter you may begin to feel some relief. Until then, I'm afraid you'll continue your vain attempts at convincing people (yourself really) that what you did was right and true.
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Read Dp's post and then my initial response. That may clear it up for you. sorry this upset you so much.
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Read Dp's post and then my initial response.
Done and done. And....??
That may clear it up for you.
It's very clear that you're a liar.
sorry this upset you so much.
You just can't seem to help yourself, can you? You may want to see someone about that narcissistic streak in you. It runs strong. And is usually covering up for a very strong sense of inadequacy.
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Parents should consult their pediatrician and never just trust anyone on the internet to make their final decision.
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I would consult your child’s doctor first. He is a professional and knows your child better than any of us do.
Where do you think programs advertise? On the internet. I'm pleased to see you advise parents to not trust these program salesmen who market online and prey on the fear of desperate parents, and rather listen to the professional medical opinion of their family doctor.
Yes, I think this drives home my point that the readers need to consult their doctor or talk to the programs directly
Woops! I spoke too soon, it appears you have now completely changed your advice. Now you tell parents you can trust some random person you find online, as long as it's a program representative [salesperson] with a financial interest in seeing your child enrolled.
Tell us TheWho, why the change of opinion?
Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program. Why should parents trust non-degreed, non-medical program sales people over the advice of
Timothy A. Rogge, MD
David Zieve, MD
Many "behavioral modification" schools, "wilderness programs," and "boot camps" are sold to parents as solutions for conduct disorder. These may use a form of "attack therapy" or "confrontation," which can actually be harmful. There is no research support for such techniques. Research suggests that treating children at home, along with their families, is more effective.
If you are considering an inpatient program, be sure to check it out thoroughly. Serious injuries and deaths have been associated with some programs. They are not regulated in many states.
or
Benjamin W. Van Voorhees, MD
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."
These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.
or the American Psychiatric Association
"We tried this type of confrontation route and very strict discipline and found it simply doesn't work," said Levounis, director of the Addiction Institute of New York and chief of the Division of Addiction Psychiatry at St. Luke's and Roosevelt Hospitals. "It is particularly detrimental for people who suffer from other mental illnesses, as well, such as schizophrenia or depression or bipolar disorder."
The report's findings that many programs have dangerous conditions and "tremendous side effects" are additional reasons for keeping children with co-occurring mental disorders away from such treatment approaches, he said.
Children with co-occurring mental illnesses in such residential treatment programs, Levounis said, are at best deprived of safe and effective treatments for their dual diagnosis—in terms of medication or psychotherapy—and at worst, they are at risk for death or severe physical harm.
Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?
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While the article meant that the category for wilderness programs in Utah (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Category:Wilderness_programs_in_Utah) was expanded, I have a questions for one of the articles in Salt Lake tribune: Five teens have died in programs since 1990 (http://http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10438495).
How did they bring some of the dead kids back to life?
A year ago the same newspaper wrote 8 deaths. Also a year ago the same newspaper wrote how a teenager held a necktie party at Aspen Achievement Academy (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Aspen_Achievement_Academy). A boy who was sent there due to depression after his brothers death died out there.
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Where do you think programs advertise? On the internet. I'm pleased to see you advise parents to not trust these program salesmen who market online and prey on the fear of desperate parents, and rather listen to the professional medical opinion of their family doctor.
Well, the internet is great for gather information on subjects but when it comes to medical advice I would just be a little careful. Check your sources, gather knowledge from several different sites so that you will be armed with questions when you finally speak to your doctor.
Woops! I spoke too soon, it appears you have now completely changed your advice. Now you tell parents you can trust some random person you find online, as long as it's a program representative [salesperson] with a financial interest in seeing your child enrolled.
I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject. In addition to what I wrote above I would suggest calling the program directly or visiting them. They can provide you with more detail and answer your specific questions. You may also ask to speak with a parent who has had a child thru the program.
Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program. Why should parents trust non-degreed, non-medical program sales people
I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids. I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.
Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?
I don’t think many parents would send their child away to a school based on a person who answers the phone. This is typically the first screening and can answer general questions, set up appointment etc.
Look at it like calling the doctors office...first screening from a person answering the phone.. then maybe you are referred to a nurse...then maybe the nurse may have you speak to a doctor... then maybe a specialist etc.
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I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject.
No, you haven't. Anybody who reads this thread learns this, by this point in the discussion.
I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids. I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.
Most programs offer the parents access to their preferred escort service, and will usually set it up for them. I know you don't know much about programs, so I will forgive your ignorance.
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I believe I have been fairly consistent on my feelings on this subject.
Now I KNOW there's been a total and complete disconnect with reality.
I haven’t heard of programs sending escorts to pick up kids. I believe it is up to the parents to get the child to the school.
Tell us, what gives the non degreed, non professional, non medical program salesmen who answer the phone and emails of desperate parents more credibility than these sources?
Now I KNOW there's been a total and complete disconnect with reality.
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First you said:
Programs offer to send escorts to pick up a depressed, "mild" bipolar, drug addicted child and forcibly enroll them in a wilderness program.
After I corrected you then you back peddled to:
Most programs offer the parents access to their preferred escort service, and will usually set it up for them.......
The reality is that most of the better TBS’s are not even accepting kids via escorts and very few would ever offer an escort service. As parents call for information about the specific programs they will be able to get the truth. Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.
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TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.
I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].
There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.
I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.
It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.
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Who, do you condone escort services like those that are employed by Aspen Education?
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TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.
I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].
There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.
I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.
It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.
Giest,
You've made some mighty impressive points, but alas..................they are lost on Who. He is so dug into the Kool Aid in order to appease his guilt over his daughter that he cannot see the forest for the trees.
He HAS to buy into what he's saying (what the program taught him).............otherwise, all that his daughter suffered was in vain and he cannot bring himself to believe that. It's an incredibly familiar and very sad story.
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Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.
Oh, and do your posts carry more weight because you have the fake moniker, "The Who" attached to them??? How are you any different from anyone else that is posing a relevant question?
Wait...............I just answered my own question. Your inquiries are RARELY relevant and more often completely misleading.
Never mind! :D
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Giest,
You've made some mighty impressive points, but alas..................they are lost on Who. He is so dug into the Kool Aid in order to appease his guilt over his daughter that he cannot see the forest for the trees.
He HAS to buy into what he's saying (what the program taught him).............otherwise, all that his daughter suffered was in vain and he cannot bring himself to believe that. It's an incredibly familiar and very sad story.
I agree with you. I usually ignore TheWho, because it's obvious to anyone who has been here for a time that he is not interested in an honest discussion.
However, his assertion that wilderness programs are effective in treating bipolar is blatantly, and provably false, as demonstrated earlier in this thread. Some statements are so absurd, it's hard to let them slide.
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TheWho, stick around and read up more on programs.
I've been on fornits since the beginning and have lived through half a dozen programs, so I know more than you. My parents also follow fornits and choose not to post, but they told me they used to be ignorant just like you [so I know where you are coming from], until they took the time to open their mind, and learn more from the people who were there [kids and former staff].
There is a lot of useful information here on fornits. You can learn a lot by just reading old threads. I've known many parents like you who have fallen fallen victim to myths perpetuated by programs, but the reality is much different.
I've lived it and know what I'm talking about, and there are many like me who choose to share their real life experience, I would suggest you learn from these posts and enlarge your understanding of how programs work.
It's been an interesting discussion, I think everyone involved would agree with that.
Thank you for that closing. I do intend to continue to learn/read more about programs and the industry. The frustrating part is watching people standing still and close their minds to learning, especially those who view the world from the 1970’s. There have been so many changes occurring and hopefully much more to come. The last thing we want to do is lose sight of what is important and that is getting the children the help they need and reducing the chances of them getting lost in the shuffle, ignored or abused.
My biggest peeve is that there are many posters here who are not interested in the kids or anyone besides themselves and their personal stories and are here to dump anger, disrupt the forum and side track any presentation of new ideas and viewpoints.
Tell your parents, “hey!”
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Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.
Oh, and do your posts carry more weight because you have the fake moniker, "The Who" attached to them??? How are you any different from anyone else that is posing a relevant question?
Wait...............I just answered my own question. Your inquiries are RARELY relevant and more often completely misleading.
Never mind! :D
This is his standard M.O., name calling to get a rise. Sticks and stones... ;D
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Until then I would be very sceptical about what you are reading here from our troll friend who is afraid to log in.
Oh, and do your posts carry more weight because you have the fake moniker, "The Who" attached to them??? How are you any different from anyone else that is posing a relevant question?
Wait...............I just answered my own question. Your inquiries are RARELY relevant and more often completely misleading.
Never mind! :D
This is his standard M.O., name calling to get a rise. Sticks and stones... ;D
Thanks Giest, but having someone call my moniker fake isnt the worst name calling I have encountered. I have been called much worse. Name calling is one of the first tip offs that you are dealing with a troll or someone who is frustrated and doesnt want to listen. It is better just to ignore them.
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Name calling is one of the first tip offs that you are dealing with a troll or someone who is frustrated and doesnt want to listen.
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I wouldn't call you a troll. I wouldn't call you afraid because you don't post under your legal name. For some reason you find this name calling necessary, it's childish. When you are ready to have a grown up discussion, let me know.
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Name calling is one of the first tip offs that you are dealing with a troll or someone who is frustrated and doesnt want to listen.
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I wouldn't call you a troll. I wouldn't call you afraid because you don't post under your legal name. For some reason you find this name calling necessary, it's childish. When you are ready to have a grown up discussion, let me know.
The name calling is unneccessary.
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Name calling is one of the first tip offs that you are dealing with a troll or someone who is frustrated and doesnt want to listen.
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I wouldn't call you a troll. I wouldn't call you afraid because you don't post under your legal name. For some reason you find this name calling necessary, it's childish. When you are ready to have a grown up discussion, let me know.
The name calling is unneccessary.
I'm glad you agree because it's hard to have a discussion this way. The real question is why he resorts to such childish tactics. Some people think TheWho is only interested in provoking people, and I am beginning to agree with them.
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Thanks Giest, but having someone call my moniker fake isnt the worst name calling I have encountered. I have been called much worse. Name calling is one of the first tip offs that you are dealing with a troll or someone who is frustrated and doesnt want to listen. It is better just to ignore them.
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And again, like you really believe Giest is coming to your defense. Honestly, do you really wonder why no one takes you seriously? I mean, maybe people did a while back. I think I was even sucked in a few times, but after all this???? Really???
All you reveal is how desperate you are to believe what they've told you. Otherwise, everything you've invested over these last years...........all that time.......all that 'love'...all that effort.......all that energy......all that money.........well, my god. What WILL you say?? Years from now??? How WILL you explain yourself???? I can tell you now that my father is having an incredibly difficult time in defending speeches he made to Rotary years ago, praising the program. He's having a difficult time explaining how he condoned things that he never EVER would have if not for the influence of 'tough love'.....all in the name of protecting the program. The end justifies the means. These kids are gonna DIE without us!!!
Fucking SPARE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With people like Who and my dad I really think it boils down to not being able to face what they did. The longer I live, the more he and I talk, the more I raise my own kids, the more I see that these people are afraid. Very afraid. Afraid of their kids. Afraid of themselves. Afraid of society and what it'll "do to their kids"....(the parents don't realize how much influence they have).....Thus, the fear mongering works.
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And again, like you really believe Giest is coming to your defense. Honestly, do you really wonder why no one takes you seriously? I mean, maybe people did a while back. I think I was even sucked in a few times, but after all this???? Really???
All you reveal is how desperate you are to believe what they've told you. Otherwise, everything you've invested over these last years...........all that time.......all that 'love'...all that effort.......all that energy......all that money.........well, my god. What WILL you say?? Years from now??? How WILL you explain yourself???? I can tell you now that my father is having an incredibly difficult time in defending speeches he made to Rotary years ago, praising the program. He's having a difficult time explaining how he condoned things that he never EVER would have if not for the influence of 'tough love'.....all in the name of protecting the program. The end justifies the means. These kids are gonna DIE without us!!!
Fucking SPARE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell your dad not to take it to heart and not to beat himself up over it. My mom to this day still wishes she didn’t feed us bacon and eggs every morning with whole milk. She didn’t know this was unhealthy at the time. My dad use to smoke cigarettes in the house. My grandmother smoked when she was pregnant. No one knew at the time that this was unhealthy.
Your dad thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons, that is what is important.
With people like Who and my dad I really think it boils down to not being able to face what they did. The longer I live, the more he and I talk, the more I raise my own kids, the more I see that these people are afraid. Very afraid. Afraid of their kids. Afraid of themselves. Afraid of society and what it'll "do to their kids"....(the parents don't realize how much influence they have).....Thus, the fear mongering works.
I Think in your dads case it is true and he shouldn’t feel that way. Who knows in another 20 years or so you will look back at how you tried to keep parents from sending their kids to programs only to find out it was the worst decision ever. Programs have come along way in the last 30 years. This generation of schools may turn out to be the best thing for at-risk youth. But you will have to look back and say you really believed in your heart that you were doing the right thing by telling people not to send their kids, which I think you are. You shouldn’t spend the rest of your life feeling you did the wrong thing.
Look at the people who died in car crashes because they didn’t have air bags. Do you think the retired auto engineers sit around in guilt all day? Of course not!!
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TheWho: why do you post on this forum, what is your motivation?
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Tell your dad not to take it to heart and not to beat himself up over it. My mom to this day still wishes she didn’t feed us bacon and eggs every morning with whole milk. She didn’t know this was unhealthy at the time. My dad use to smoke cigarettes in the house. My grandmother smoked when she was pregnant. No one knew at the time that this was unhealthy.
Your dad thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons, that is what is important.
But now most people agree that excessive cholesterol and alcohol intakes are harmful. Just as now most rational, sane, compassionate, medical professionals realize that the 'tough love' concept is not only outdated and ineffective, but actually harmful.
I Think in your dads case it is true and he shouldn’t feel that way. Who knows in another 20 years or so you will look back at how you tried to keep parents from sending their kids to programs only to find out it was the worst decision ever.
It's BEEN 20 years or so. People are upset with me that I didn't speak out sooner about what I knew about not only my own programs(s), but the undeniably common denominators in them ALL. And I DO have grown kids who have been through, and put ME through all the trauma and turmoil thatI've heard described here.
Programs have come along way in the last 30 years.
[Citation needed]
This generation of schools may turn out to be the best thing for at-risk youth.
[Citation needed]
But you will have to look back and say you really believed in your heart that you were doing the right thing by telling people not to send their kids, which I think you are.
I am. I'm saying, FLAT OUT, don't send your kids. Or anyone else's for that matter.
You shouldn’t spend the rest of your life feeling you did the wrong thing.
I don't. That's your's and my dad's jobs.
Look at the people who died in car crashes because they didn’t have air bags. Do you think the retired auto engineers sit around in guilt all day? Of course not!!
What is it in you that allows you to equate children to cars?????????? That's a VERY common analogy with you.
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TheWho: why do you post on this forum, what is your motivation?
Lets say that you attended a program and that you were abused and didn’t make out too well there and you knew other people who were abused also and a year or 2 after you graduated you came across a site/forum like fornits which talked about how great programs are and how everyone makes out well and not one person has ever done poorly. They say all programs are the same and my programs was great so therefore they all must be great!!
Then you decide to post your story and everyone calls you a liar and says you were never abused. “Its not possible all programs are the same”, they tell you “and we turned out okay”. “Just give it a few years and you will see the truth”. But you stand your ground even though they tag you with a scarlet letter, call you a Nazi, call you names and say someone must be paying you to post that nonsense, call your posts spam and flooding and even manage to get you banned a few times, try to find out who you are and where you work. Kids were being sent to programs left and right without a thought of them being abused. Wouldn’t you want to stay and add a little balance in the case that maybe one person would listen to you and you could help one child? Wouldn’t that be worth it to you?
Well that is what I face every day on fornits and I post against all odds to reach a few parents who are looking for help for their child. We all know in reality that not all programs are the same and that they help a tremendous number of children. Fornits choses to focus on the kids who have been abused and didn’t finish the program which is a good cause but many here deceive parents into not getting any help for their own children or making them feel guilty for trying. I try to add balance to that. I think you would do the same thing in your circumstance if you could.
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Your dad thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons, that is what is important.
So, as long as Dad "thought" he was doing the right thing it makes the (none from him, all from program) beatings, the humiliation, the forced confessions, the isolation......that was all OK because he "thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons.....THAT'S what is important" the abuse, all OK cuz he "meant well"? Shit!!!! Miller Newton THOUGHT he was doing the right thing. He STILL does. He STILL defends what he did years ago and what he does now. No, it's not what is important. What is important is the effect it had on me and my development as a person. The road to hell and all............. What's important, is the consequences of these thought processees (sp). What's important is that people finally realize that force/coercion has NO PLACE in a therapeutic setting. "Positive peer pressure" my ass.
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So, as long as Dad "thought" he was doing the right thing it makes the (none from him, all from program) beatings, the humiliation, the forced confessions, the isolation......that was all OK because he "thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons.....THAT'S what is important" the abuse, all OK cuz he "meant well"? Shit!!!! Miller Newton THOUGHT he was doing the right thing. He STILL does. He STILL defends what he did years ago and what he does now. No, it's not what is important. What is important is the effect it had on me and my development as a person. The road to hell and all............. What's important, is the consequences of these thought processees (sp). What's important is that people finally realize that force/coercion has NO PLACE in a therapeutic setting. "Positive peer pressure" my ass.
Sure, if he knew they were beating you then yes he should feel guilty and was a lousy parent if he didn’t try to get you out. But if he felt (at the time) what he did was the best for you then he shouldn’t feel guilty now. The same as my mother should not feel guilty that she was feeding her kids bacon and eggs, whole milk etc. And my dad was smoking in the house around the kids. If they were doing it now then yes it would be wrong. But what your dad did and my mother did is not anything to feel guilty about.
And if it turns out that the programs of today are proven to be the best thing since penicillin you shouldn’t feel guilty for trying to stop kids from getting help because you are doing what you feel is best right now in your own mind.
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So anyway, what about this place in Utah...?
Seems like every thread turns into the same tiresome debate.
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TheWho: why do you post on this forum, what is your motivation?
Lets say that you attended a program and that you were abused and didn’t make out too well there and you knew other people who were abused also and a year or 2 after you graduated you came across a site/forum like fornits which talked about how great programs are and how everyone makes out well and not one person has ever done poorly. They say all programs are the same and my programs was great so therefore they all must be great!!
Then you decide to post your story and everyone calls you a liar and says you were never abused. “Its not possible all programs are the same”, they tell you “and we turned out okay”. “Just give it a few years and you will see the truth”. But you stand your ground even though they tag you with a scarlet letter, call you a Nazi, call you names and say someone must be paying you to post that nonsense, call your posts spam and flooding and even manage to get you banned a few times, try to find out who you are and where you work. Kids were being sent to programs left and right without a thought of them being abused. Wouldn’t you want to stay and add a little balance in the case that maybe one person would listen to you and you could help one child? Wouldn’t that be worth it to you?
Well that is what I face every day on fornits and I post against all odds to reach a few parents who are looking for help for their child. We all know in reality that not all programs are the same and that they help a tremendous number of children. Fornits choses to focus on the kids who have been abused and didn’t finish the program which is a good cause but many here deceive parents into not getting any help for their own children or making them feel guilty for trying. I try to add balance to that. I think you would do the same thing in your circumstance if you could.
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You must realize that most of the world agrees with your position. Take a look at the comments on any news story regarding a death in a program. Most cheer it on, saying the "little bastard deserved what they got". You get out of the program and tell your parents you were abused and they say it was for your own good. You tell the police and they say they can't do anything. You call a lawyer and they ask for thousands of dollars. You write your congressman, they send you a form response letter.
You are not in the minority, TheWho. On fornits, perhaps, but not in the real world. Fornits has an accurate tally now of how many people are on this forum. A dozen, maybe a few more or less, at any given time. That's a very small sliver of the population.
The reason why so many parents believe programs work, is because on the surface, it "seems" like a good idea. All the words and pictures fit together in a mythical way that creates an aura of pleasant imaginations. I know, because I wasn't forced into all the programs I attended. I went willingly to a couple of them after perusing brochures, and discussing it over with my psychiatrist and my parents. Weren't we all surprised when we found out it was horribly abusive, both psychologically and physical. Well, the truth is neither the psychiatrist or parents cared. For a while, eventually after a long period of estrangement they realized I had no motivation to lie, and I had been telling the truth after all.
Fornits is one of the only places in the world where you can discuss these events, and people will believe you. My own friends don't believe what I tell them, so I am never surprised when a parent or someone like that doesn't either. It doesn't make sense. These things don't happen in the United States, a country which everyone thinks would protect it's children. But the truth is bad things happen in programs, and the reason bad things happen is because the theory behind the "treatment" is flawed.
I went from the juvenille justice system, to the psychiatric system, to the RTC system, and finally through the private program arena. The biggest noticeable difference is that the kids in the private sector, I couldn't figure out for the life of me why they were there. I knew why I was there, I was the "special case". The fucked up kid with a long list of mental illness and medication, which nobody knows what to do with. There was a couple of us who had actually been addicted to hard drugs, done illegal things, and faced criminal charges and incarceration. 98% of the kids I met in private programs were there for reasons that do not justify forced incarceration.
I am still flabbergasted at their fate. Kids as young as 12 all the way to 18, all offered the same form "treatment plan" which consisted of uncomfortable and unhealthy living conditions (we all got pink eye and scabies), coercive brainwashing also referred to as behavior modification, confrontational group therapies which consisted of the group of kids tearing each other down, to the delight and entertainment of the high-school educated staff. I know this type of environment does not help anyone, from kids like me who were in treatment for a reason, to the majority who had no business being in any sort of locked environment.
I know what good treatment looks like. The difference is night and day. Private programs and the theories behind their actions do harm, and no good. Notice I did not say they do more harm than good. The good that parents perceive, is a culmination of the child's fear and gratification of being granted leave from the precarious and dangerous situation they surprisingly found themselves in. Parents see this as some sort of result, but it is false. I saw what happens before the parents enter the room. I know what was told of us, what we were supposed to say, and what we weren't supposed to say. The program and us were partners in deception. Deception of the only people that matter, the people signing the checks. This deception continues into the home after the child's eventual return, in fear of being sent again. Many parents vocalize this thread quite regularly as a way to keep order. Fear works.
Positive professional treatment versus confrontational and coercive programs, the effectiveness to me is obvious having flavored both. Remember those normal kids who were sent to a program for ditching school, smoking ciggarettes and having sex? Some of them get out and then kill themselves because of what was done to them.
Parents want to send their kid away for conduct disorder, or depression. A proper RTC will not under any circumstances take a kid away from their school, family and friends for this. As professionals they know that these are better treated in the home. Parents are bypassing traditional treatment because they feel the bar is too high on how "bad" their teen has to get in order to do a full intervention (lockup). I've seen the consequences of this myself, and it's not inspiring.
So you claim that your views and opinions are not tolerated and you are an oppressed minority, forgive me for finding this laughable. You can imagine if fornits equated society how it would feel to be us in everyday life.
You have the entire world. We have this small sliver of cyberspace.
As far as parents finding this site and me trying to scare them into not sending their teen. I plead guilty. I would never suggest a parent follow the actions of my parents, nor would they. But we both know not many parents stop into fornits and read 5 page long threads. Google troubled teen and see what they read. It's 99.9% pro program marketing websites.
I told my parents in letters exactly what was happening, actions that would land a parent in jail if they were done at home, and they ignored it. They chose to believe the programs explanation that it was all manipulation.
I have no anger any more, it's been several years. I love both my parents and we get along. I am more concerned that other people will follow their mistaken choice, as they freely admit, and it will result in a family's destruction instead of it's salvation. Our goals seem to be the same, our experience seems to differ greatly.
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Wow, that was quite lengthy.
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:D Sorry about that! :blabla: ::evil:: ;D
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Nicely stated, "question". I really wish there was a way to prevent parents from sending kids away for treatment without first trying local services or at least having a therapist agree to the placement first. This would avoid so many uneeded placements. Hopefully regulation will standardize some of the practices used within the communities and elliminate some of the more abusive/ineffective ones.
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Wow. That was one of the best things I've read around here in a long time. Thanks for that.
You must realize that most of the world agrees with your position. Take a look at the comments on any news story regarding a death in a program. Most cheer it on, saying the "little bastard deserved what they got". You get out of the program and tell your parents you were abused and they say it was for your own good. You tell the police and they say they can't do anything. You call a lawyer and they ask for thousands of dollars. You write your congressman, they send you a form response letter.
You are not in the minority, TheWho. On fornits, perhaps, but not in the real world. Fornits has an accurate tally now of how many people are on this forum. A dozen, maybe a few more or less, at any given time. That's a very small sliver of the population.
The reason why so many parents believe programs work, is because on the surface, it "seems" like a good idea. All the words and pictures fit together in a mythical way that creates an aura of pleasant imaginations. I know, because I wasn't forced into all the programs I attended. I went willingly to a couple of them after perusing brochures, and discussing it over with my psychiatrist and my parents. Weren't we all surprised when we found out it was horribly abusive, both psychologically and physical. Well, the truth is neither the psychiatrist or parents cared. For a while, eventually after a long period of estrangement they realized I had no motivation to lie, and I had been telling the truth after all.
Fornits is one of the only places in the world where you can discuss these events, and people will believe you. My own friends don't believe what I tell them, so I am never surprised when a parent or someone like that doesn't either. It doesn't make sense. These things don't happen in the United States, a country which everyone thinks would protect it's children. But the truth is bad things happen in programs, and the reason bad things happen is because the theory behind the "treatment" is flawed.
I went from the juvenille justice system, to the psychiatric system, to the RTC system, and finally through the private program arena. The biggest noticeable difference is that the kids in the private sector, I couldn't figure out for the life of me why they were there. I knew why I was there, I was the "special case". The fucked up kid with a long list of mental illness and medication, which nobody knows what to do with. There was a couple of us who had actually been addicted to hard drugs, done illegal things, and faced criminal charges and incarceration. 98% of the kids I met in private programs were there for reasons that do not justify forced incarceration.
I am still flabbergasted at their fate. Kids as young as 12 all the way to 18, all offered the same form "treatment plan" which consisted of uncomfortable and unhealthy living conditions (we all got pink eye and scabies), coercive brainwashing also referred to as behavior modification, confrontational group therapies which consisted of the group of kids tearing each other down, to the delight and entertainment of the high-school educated staff. I know this type of environment does not help anyone, from kids like me who were in treatment for a reason, to the majority who had no business being in any sort of locked environment.
I know what good treatment looks like. The difference is night and day. Private programs and the theories behind their actions do harm, and no good. Notice I did not say they do more harm than good. The good that parents perceive, is a culmination of the child's fear and gratification of being granted leave from the precarious and dangerous situation they surprisingly found themselves in. Parents see this as some sort of result, but it is false. I saw what happens before the parents enter the room. I know what was told of us, what we were supposed to say, and what we weren't supposed to say. The program and us were partners in deception. Deception of the only people that matter, the people signing the checks. This deception continues into the home after the child's eventual return, in fear of being sent again. Many parents vocalize this thread quite regularly as a way to keep order. Fear works.
Positive professional treatment versus confrontational and coercive programs, the effectiveness to me is obvious having flavored both. Remember those normal kids who were sent to a program for ditching school, smoking ciggarettes and having sex? Some of them get out and then kill themselves because of what was done to them.
Parents want to send their kid away for conduct disorder, or depression. A proper RTC will not under any circumstances take a kid away from their school, family and friends for this. As professionals they know that these are better treated in the home. Parents are bypassing traditional treatment because they feel the bar is too high on how "bad" their teen has to get in order to do a full intervention (lockup). I've seen the consequences of this myself, and it's not inspiring.
So you claim that your views and opinions are not tolerated and you are an oppressed minority, forgive me for finding this laughable. You can imagine if fornits equated society how it would feel to be us in everyday life.
You have the entire world. We have this small sliver of cyberspace.
As far as parents finding this site and me trying to scare them into not sending their teen. I plead guilty. I would never suggest a parent follow the actions of my parents, nor would they. But we both know not many parents stop into fornits and read 5 page long threads. Google troubled teen and see what they read. It's 99.9% pro program marketing websites.
I told my parents in letters exactly what was happening, actions that would land a parent in jail if they were done at home, and they ignored it. They chose to believe the programs explanation that it was all manipulation.
I have no anger any more, it's been several years. I love both my parents and we get along. I am more concerned that other people will follow their mistaken choice, as they freely admit, and it will result in a family's destruction instead of it's salvation. Our goals seem to be the same, our experience seems to differ greatly.
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Wow. That was one of the best things I've read around here in a long time. Thanks for that.
It was a great post; I agree with everything it said, but it wasn't quite as good as this one:
Kids don't deserve no goddamn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses!
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But the rest of Utah's camps pitch hiking and survival skills - making a fire using a bow and arrow, setting traps for game -- as the best way wilderness can break through a teen's problems. The element of risk in being isolated in the desert makes therapy effective, said Andrew Powell, a field director for Outback Therapeutic Expeditions.
There is not therapy in Outback Therapeutic Expeditions. A psychologist goes around once a week and spends about 5 minutes with each kid asking them about whether they have suicidal thoughts. That is it. The rest of the time, the kids are guarded by other kids only a few years older and in some cases, only recently graduated from the same program.
Wilderness is not therapy; it is punishment. The primary purpose behind 'wilderness' is to make the experience so miserable, that none of the kids want to go back there again. Marching seven or more miles per day with little food. Without shoelaces if they consider you a suicide threat. Wilderness is used as a threat in all of the subsequent programs. If the kid fails to comply with the program rules, they are sent back to wilderness to punish them.
And ALL of the kids in wilderness go on to other residential therapeutic programs. The only ones that don't are the kids whose parents can't afford the residential program. Lucky them.