Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: wtaylorg on February 10, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
-
I remember being on the gate(door) from 82-85, and every once in a while a car would pull up and someone would get out of the car and take pictures of the Seed. While this was happening I would get Bob W. as I was told to do in a situation like this. I was almost always told by Bob to run out to the gate and find out what they wanted. It seemed like this person was always from Florida Dept of Trans.? Something like that.
Anyways, I guess the idea of the pictures was that DOT or some agency was wanting to run I95 where SR84 existed. Did this ever happen? And if so When? And if so, where did the Seed go after that? I have heard refeernces to Andrews Ave. Isn't that the place where the Seed originated.
Considering that Art has the ""gift" of instant awareness. shouldn't he have known that they were going to be kicked out of SR84?
-
A few years back I did an archive search on Art and The Seed. I found something to do w/ the DOT and eminent domain. Didn't want to spend the money (buck a page, I think) to print out the whole thing. But I think it was just as you say. They did widen SR-84 and made it a limited access part of the interstate system. It's I-75, though, not 95.
And they did move back to the S. Andrews building. I've driven by there before and seen the sign.The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
-
88 or 89 I think. I wasn't around either. They were on Broward Blvd. for a year or two.
Before moving back to Andrews Avenue.
-
The old four lane divided SR 84 that ran next to the canal is gone. What's there now is a 8 lane east/west freeway called I-595 (Alligator Alley connecting Ft. Lauderdale with Naples, FL).
The canal and homes are still there, but the Seed building and property on the south side of the highway is gone - it's just pavement now. I was down there yesterday on some business. That large, gold pyramid is still there, and the small lake (rock pit) that was near the turnpike exit is now huge (several acres in size)SR 84 still on the south side of the highway, its just a parallel access road on the south side of the highway.
-
Somewhere after '87 we moved from the St. Road. 84 building. I will never forget helping to fill up all those trucks late at night. We moved from that big, cold feeling warehouse to a small clinic-like office building that looked like a duplex. It use to be a dentist's offce right on Broward Blvd. There was hardly a parking lot, and if you can imagine the rap room was so small that if you were on the front row staff was literally in your face. Also, there was only one bathroom, unisex style. It was really like sitting in someone's apartment living room, where everyone sat in the group except the one staff member leading the rap in front. Even before the move, they stopped having staff members sit on the side of the group, they all sat in the group with the oldcommers (I guess to make the group look bigger). They would sit up front only when they led a rap. Then after about 2 years, we finally moved out of the samll clinic back to the Andrews Ave. house. Art and staff seemed to love it there since I guess that was the beginning of everything, but honestly the place was scary 'cause when you were in there you really got a good close look at people's faces and could tell that they were just a bunch of kid looking adults that had gotten a lot older as time passed. This was not normal. The building was a classical art deco architecture, but a hauntingly creepy old house.
-
By the way Wtaylorg, I was the one that walked what seemed like an eternity with you, passing out the Sound Mort. flyers. Remember how we got chased by dogs? Also, you and I were secretly in love wiith Madonna, but couldn't talk about her since she was so taboo in the group in the early 80's (so we would sing her songs all day, Borderline, Like a Virgin, Material Girl. . .)You would talk about how sexy she was, and so would I. I always remember one of the staffmembers tearing her apart going on about what a "Whor.. that Madonna is." By the way I saw her recently with my boyfriend in Miami. She is still the Diva she always was in the 80's. She has slowed down a little but still has it in her. Anyway, you were always a super nice guy, enjoyed spending time with you. Hope all is well.
-
On 2005-02-11 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Art and staff seemed to love it there since I guess that was the beginning of everything, but honestly the place was scary 'cause when you were in there you really got a good close look at people's faces and could tell that they were just a bunch of kid looking adults that had gotten a lot older as time passed. This was not normal. The building was a classical art deco architecture, but a hauntingly creepy old house."
By kid looking adults, do you mean they (staff) tried to look young, but were just a bunch of middle aged people trying to seem cool and hip? Was there ever the idea that maybe they (group) needed to end this thing (Seed), which after reading many of these posts seemed to have really lost it's steam a long time ago? It seems long before I was even there. It must have seemed pathetic to watch these people try to indentify with newcomers, when the world had passed Art & Co by many yrs ago.
-
I remember when I first came into the Seed we were at the STRD 84. I remember being on gate duty and running out to the gate every time a car would show up. I used to enjoy when Bob W would tap me on my shoulder and would ask me to go outside and weed the front flower beds or paint something cause after a while I would get very freaked out in the raps.
I can remember working and preparing the building on broward Blvd so we could move in but I have no recollection of the actual move itself. I cut alot of lawns while I was at the Seed and I got to say I had a good time with the guys I worked with. I still remember them all even after all these years. At night I worked at the insurance company entering data for a while. I still.
I got chewed out by Staff once for getting into a fight with some asshole that started giving me a hard time. Bob W told me this had not happened in years and I had to learn to control my Latin TEMPER.
Hey Wtaylor I still have a Cal Ripken drawing you made for me packed away in a box in my closet with some other things I kept from my days at the Seed. Every once in a while I'll drive by on I-595 and without failure as I get to the area where the old Seed was I seem to go back in time and remember my times at the Seed.
The STRD84 Seed I believe was where the Signature Gardens is at now because I can remember during the afternoon rap when I was a newcomer looking out past the rap leader past the truckers shed, past the trees into the power station.
-
These posts bring back so many memories. Here's where we spent our youth, sitting at the gate or door on SR84, weeding the flower beds, painting the awnings, doing night duty. Remember staying the night, doing rounds around the building every 20 minutes, eating some take out sub that gave you rank morning breath, watching the sun go down? Sometimes Dave R. would play the old piano in the back room and we would sing. Sometimes Jeff P. would have a guitar and we'd sing Teach Your Children well. We thought we were saving the world. I can't say it was a waste, because of what I learned about friendship, but what I learned about the world was all false. The only thing the seed taught was obedience to authority, and that is fine in the military but not so good in the real world, unless you have the willingness to challenge that authority when you find it to be wrong. Anyway, I can't believe that building is gone now I am sad to have my youth disappear...
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-02-14 09:18 ]
-
I hold those memories to be very special. I got to say being one who did get to live my youth open and free and did more than my fair share of fucking off.
I remember what I learned and how I learned very fondly. I had some good times with some good friends and even though it seems like all this happened another life time ago the lessons I learned there is what I use to this very day. I don't hold any resentment toward the Seed or anyone from the Seed on the contrary that is where I really grew up.
The Seed was'ent perfect which became very apparent in my later years there but, it sure tried to be.
Sometimes I wish I could go back to a better and simpler time.
-
You can.
Go sign yourself in
one of these seed copycat programs....they can all be traced back to the seed and use substantially similar techniques, updated to include all the necessary bells and whistles in order to get insurance to pay the way...
http://www.growingtogether.com/ (http://www.growingtogether.com/)
http://www.kidshelpingkids.com/ (http://www.kidshelpingkids.com/)
http://www.safeorlando.com/index.html (http://www.safeorlando.com/index.html)
http://www.aarc.ab.ca/ (http://www.aarc.ab.ca/)
http://www.pathwayfamilycenter.org/ (http://www.pathwayfamilycenter.org/)
Luv Ya!
:grin:
-
Or a facsimile there of ?
-
I don't really think the seed strived for "perfection" per se anon, but instead strived for a perfect closed society; practicing perfect idolization of Art Barker. It strove to protect him and themselves from the reality of the world. It strove to support the very transparent lies they were telling themselves about the definition of honesty, commitment, and friendship, and strove to remain glaringly naively idealistic even as the reality of Art's imperfection, mortality and weaknesses were slipping in.
very different things.
Someone had to figure somehow Art couldn't beat everyone at softball at 70 years old. people had to realize "awareness" really meant closing your eyes to reality and telling yourself a myth based in mysticism. And people had to see other's profiting off of the devotees' dedication to idealistic perfection, sipping iced tea in their air conditioned paid for houses as these poor saps mowed lawns, washed cars and cleaned other people's houses in order to gain status in the group.
The whole thing was a sham, and I feel for those of you that fell for it for so long.
-
I agree with you Greg!!!!
::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
-
"Someone had to figure somehow Art couldn't beat everyone at softball at 70 years old. people had to realize "awareness" really meant closing your eyes to reality and telling yourself a myth based in mysticism. And people had to see other's profiting off of the devotees' dedication to idealistic perfection, sipping iced tea in their air conditioned paid for houses as these poor saps mowed lawns, washed cars and cleaned other people's houses in order to gain status in the group.
The whole thing was a sham, and I feel for those of you that fell for it for so long."
I agree very much with what you're saying Greg. I have read here where it seems some people are getting misty eyed with their recollections of staying the night at the Seed, gardening that kind of stuff. They are failing to remember the place as it was. The Seed was a place where you couldn't take a crap without asking for permission. Is this right?
I was there from 82-85, and during that time my grandmother passed away. I asked them permission to go the funeral, as I had to ask them permission to do anything( take a piss, buy a sandwhich). They said they would get back to me. "get back to me?" To them my Grandmothers funeral was not as important as Art & staff going to the Bagel Nosch for lunch, or one of those meaning less softball games ou tin the back field, where Bob W. instructed you to "pitch it so Art could hit it".
I am glad that they decided I could go to the funeral after the 3 days that I kept my family waiting for the answer so they could make their plans.
All that ever mattered to them was their own stuff!
I would rather deal with life's trials and tribulations, the up's and down's, then to be hanging out at some mostly abandoned building not getting in on the richness that life offers. We traded our souls to be at the Seed. That is not an OK thing for me today as I can love and am loved.
-
<"I have read here where it seems some people are getting misty eyed with their recollections of staying the night at the Seed,...>
Yeah, I get all misty-eyed about sleeping on sheets and blankets that smelled like they hadn't been washed in months, huge roaches crawling over me while I made a vain attempt to get 3 or 4 hours of sleep, eating the upstair's staff's left-over scraps for dinner, going to work without a bath and nearly killing myself when I fell asleep on a miami freeway while on the way to work one morning after guarding the seed.
-
Ya know, you GUYS on gate duty and guard duty and all the other duties who get all misty-eyed and miss the place ...you people still are not living in the real world.
The only non-group related activity I recall girls being able to participate in was that nasty bathroom stuff. How gross was that - to have to sit outside that room asking people if the had to do pee, poop, or both. And the toilets in the girls room could only be flushed when water was poured into the bowl. God help you if you started your period while on the "front row" - I had to sit there and bleed all over my pants the first time that happend to me. Fucking bitches, that's what those staff members were.
Shaming and humiliating children for having bodily functions. How fucking cruel is that?? Would any of you misty-eyed dumbasses allow your daughters to be treated that way? Or do you GUYS not have children?
What were your GUYS really? Slaves or prisioners might be a good words.
-
Man, am I pissed off about this.
-
I do not remember being asked what I had to do in the bathroom. I was there 73-74 ..when did they begin asking these questions and what was the purpose of the questions for?
-
Funny, many people do not remember this, but there was a bathroom monitor as early as 73, and before that from reports, that would always ask you, "piss", "shit" or "both" and log your name and what you did on a shett attached to a clipboard.
I know, because I often pulled this duty.
-
Oh yeah, its true. I don't want to recall a whole lot from that time but I do know that. Tothis day I refuse to use Pinesol disinfectant because it smells like that intake office and the office area. Pee-uuu that was a nasty, nasty place.
-
Whoa! I never meant to suggest that I was misty-eyed...althought parts of those years show up as fun in memory, in total, I regret those years I wasted with false ideals. I think one of the reasons that staying the night, doing yard work, guarding Art's house, whatever, were appealing is because those were rare moments of semi-solitude when one could actually reflect. And there were times when we had fun together, even a lot of fun, under the circumstances. Do I think back fondly on the sensory and social deprivation, lack of autonomy and privacy, and group-dominated thinking? No way.
-
Okay then. I was having a psycho-angry flash back myself. Seems like most folks there were victims of either misguided, good intention parents, or, in the case of volunatry admission, some very serious misrepresentations. Either way, it was far from wholesome.
Forgive me if I offended you with my statement. It's just that when people who were there selectively remember only "the good times" sometimes it's just necessary to call it like I see it.
-
I tried to think the other night about this bathroom thing and I do not remember anything at all. I know I blocked out alot of stuff from that time as soon as I stopped going to the seed oldtimer meetings...in fact from about 1978-1991 I don't think I ever gave the seed one thought. And in 91 I remember talking to my kids about my time in the seed and about peer pressure etc. But then never thought about it again until recently and that is when I came to this forum.
-
Shortly after the 84 seed had closed, I went by with my wife, to show her where it all went down, I took a faded wood sign from the fence - my souvenier from the wreckage. I may still have it.
I just recently got rid of the cross Bob told me to get rid of because it was an old tie or something (I found it in an attic of one of the houses I lived in) It symbolized rebellion for me so I kept it (there's a whole 'nother discussion here)
I will echo what Cleveland said about the extra duty - gate, spending the night, fixing stuff - any free moment away from the group - I was allways looking for an opportunity to "help out" and let someone else be in the group or play football etc.:wink:
I used to like feeding the ant lions out by the gate - my kids thought it was really cool when I showed them how - I knew there was something useful I learned sitting out there!
G
-
I don't know why I feel so nostalgic for the Seed - honestly I was unhappy there a great majority of the time. Last night, I went through all of the email correspondance I've had in the 18 months or so since I found this site and reconnected with some of my fellow seedlings, and the memories came in so strong - sitting in the raps and feeling bored and anxious, looking at that You're Not ALONE Anymore sign until I thought I would lose it; trying to 'cry' and relate in the group and feeling empty inside instead; being afraid to do or say something 'non-seedlike' in front of a staff member or oldcomer, always having a lump in my throat or butterflies in my stomach. When ever I did manage to have some fun, it was like a short burst of sunshine in a grey sky.
And yet I still dream about the seed, and think about it a lot, and spend too much time on this forum. Why?
I feel like I am sort of forever sitting at the front gate, listening to the sounds of the everglades and the group in the background, waiting for my life to begin.
-
Ah Com'n Walter, you don't really feel that way.
Do you?
-
I only found this forum a short time ago, but I find myself spending more time here than I would have expected.
It provides me withan opportunity to peek inside the door I closed when I left. All of those people I called my friends, those I feared and those I would have gotten to know better under different circumstnces, as well as those I never would have interacted with at all. We had some very intense and not so intense experiences together, regardless of the total time involved.
We are bound by common experiences in spite of the varoius time frames and evolution of the program. - the inability to share anything but positive emotions, denial of the negative although both were present, only the mix varies
The forum provides other viewpoints which have have made me look at things from another angle and re-evaluate some things I thought I had tied down - confirmned some things I assumed then, but later doubted and vice versa.
It's like pulling things back form the memory hole. I have thought more about that time in the past several weeks than ever. I have been trying to pull back the names and faces from the lost days. those who left before me and those I left behind - almost all were lost to me.
I think it would be good to sit down over a beer or otherwise and chat with some of the old group but I fear this is as close as I will get to that.
It does me good to read of some of the things I remember happening, and about the unspoken events (dissapearences, restarts, relationships, etc.)
-
I guess it brings out the obsessive compulsive in all of us. ::bigsmilebounce::
-
I think sitting down over a beer (or a coke, pepsi, whatever) with any of you guys is a cool idea.
I live in central florida. Anyone coming this way look me up.
Recently Chris and I and his wonderfully silly son had lunch at a Thai restaraunt. I felt immediately attached to both of them.
Next time I get down to lauderale I am looking up Ft Lauderdale for sure.
I am hoping he will hook me up with lunch with Art, Kenny, and Robert.
The five of us will sit around and talk about the good old days.
:grin:
-
That was alot of fun Greg, my son is still in Memphis with his Mom & I have been up to visit (from Baton Rouge where I am temporarily displaced because of Katrina) him 3 times now. He is a little more serious now, turned 14 in October, has discovered girls and is about 5' 7" and quite good looking (if I do brag so myself!)
I will definitely give you a shout when I come over this summer with John, Hope everyone's New Year is GReat, cause it has to be better than 2005!!!! Love you guys!