Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Elan School => Topic started by: kirstin on April 19, 2010, 11:40:02 AM
-
http://www.elanschool.com/staff.htm (http://www.elanschool.com/staff.htm)
Direct Care Staff
Elan School's direct care staff are men and women with a unique blend of backgrounds (psychology, social work, etc.) and personal experience. Each member of the Elan School staff is trained in Elan's special techniques to organize students into self-actuating groups, accepting help from peers and responsibly returning that help to others. Continuous staff training programs are focused on pertinent skills, concepts and policies.
Elan determines the appropriate blend of staff for each house; daily staff supervision is provided; and individual student's plans are constantly updated. This highly organized process of supervision ensures that every aspect of the complex system at Elan School is properly administered, to provide optimum benefit for the students. Elan School Direct Care Staff
Martin L Kruglik
Elan’s Senior Program Director has been with Élan since 1972. One of the first graduates at Élan School, Marty focuses on training and development of staff. Proper implementation of Elan’s system is critical to its success. Mr. Kruglik’s ability to teach the complicated concepts of the life skills aspect of the program have helped to blend the diverse qualities of the direct care staff.
Clare Woodman
Clare is Elan School ’s other Senior Program Director. Clare has been with Élan since 1984. Her long tenure along with her passion for the school has enabled Clare to provide a very valuable insight for both students and their families. As a graduate of Élan School, Clare’s ability to provide the “been there, done that” approach is something that the students can identify with. She is truly a role model.
Jeffrey Gottleib
Jeffrey has been with Élan School since it’s early years. Jeffrey graduated from Élan in 1972. When he joined the staff he received extensive training from the school’s co-founders, Mr. Joseph Ricci and Dr. Gerald E. Davidson. He has been one of the Resident Directors since 1974. Jeffrey brings a blend of both life experiences combined with over 30 years of implementing Elan School ’s life skills program.
Peter Rowe
Peter joined the staff at Élan School in 1988. Peter is a graduate of Assumption College and holds a Masters of Sports Management. In addition to his duties as one of the Resident Directors, Peter serves as Elan’s Athletic Director. He is also the head coach of the boys’ and girls’ cross-country and track and field teams, which have won several state championships. Peter has earned several “Coach of the Year” awards. He is also the head coach of the boys’ basketball team.
Melissa Esty
Melissa is a Resident Director at Élan School and graduated from the University of Southern Maine. Melissa joined the staff in 1991. She obtained her Social Worker’s license in 2004. Melissa offers a blend of practical and academic experience including a semester studying Islam Religion and British Culture at King Alfred College in Winchester, England.
Kathleen Sherburne
Kathleen joined Élan School in 1993 and is currently a Resident Director. Kathy served 5 1/2 years in the United States Navy where she worked as an Air Traffic Controller. Her personal experiences with implementing structure make her a valuable addition to the life skills staff.
Nick Pitarys, L.S.W.
Nick joined the staff at Elan in January, 2009. He holds a B.S. in Mental Health and Human Services, is certified as a MHRT –3 (Mental Health Rehabilitation Technician) and has been a licensed social worker for nine years. He is currently in the process of obtaining his Master’s Degree. Nick’s extensive experience as a crisis worker in emergency rooms and with adolescents in case management makes him a wonderful addition to the team.
-
:rofl: :rofl: ::fullofshit:: ::fullofshit::
Lies, Lies, Lies.......
Qualified my :moon: ::puke::
What idiot would have even thought of adding this silly lie to the elan site? Oh that must of been Farty Krugly. 1/2 the people listed are what we would classify as convicted felons. The only reason they work there and have been all their lives is because they can't get jobs anywhere else. They would fail a back ground check instantly! Marty has about as much experience as a 4 year old boy would have playing with blocks. Behind that fry pan face / deformed head of his, is a brain that is functioning on a 4 year olds capacity. And Jeffery Gotlieb? Has he not fell over from a stroke or heart attack yet? All that screaming and yelling, and popping veins in his head and being a vindicitve prick day in and day out has to be bad for his health. What about that dope user, Marc Rosendope? The man was coming to work high every day. He would wear long sleeve shirts in the middle of summer to cover his track marks. What about elan paying for his rehab stint in AZ, to dry and help clean him up, except Marc could not cope very long with it and AWOL not soon after getting admitted. Such a shame! Such a double standard. To have someone like Marc stand in front of the house and slam residents who used drugs, and degrade them for doing so and Marc himself was coming to work all doped up. Hell, he would even visit the luggage cabin and shoot up in there by lunch time.
Fuck all the liars up there in the back woods of Maine. Shame on you all ::unhappy::
-
:rofl: :rofl: ::fullofshit:: ::fullofshit::
Lies, Lies, Lies.......
Qualified my :moon: ::puke::
What idiot would have even thought of adding this silly lie to the elan site? Oh that must of been Farty Krugly. 1/2 the people listed are what we would classify as convicted felons. The only reason they work there and have been all their lives is because they can't get jobs anywhere else. They would fail a back ground check instantly! Marty has about as much experience as a 4 year old boy would have playing with blocks. Behind that fry pan face / deformed head of his, is a brain that is functioning on a 4 year olds capacity. And Jeffery Gotlieb? Has he not fell over from a stroke or heart attack yet? All that screaming and yelling, and popping veins in his head and being a vindicitve prick day in and day out has to be bad for his health. What about that dope user, Marc Rosendope? The man was coming to work high every day. He would wear long sleeve shirts in the middle of summer to cover his track marks. What about elan paying for his rehab stint in AZ, to dry and help clean him up, except Marc could not cope very long with it and AWOL not soon after getting admitted. Such a shame! Such a double standard. To have someone like Marc stand in front of the house and slam residents who used drugs, and degrade them for doing so and Marc himself was coming to work all doped up. Hell, he would even visit the luggage cabin and shoot up in there by lunch time.
Fuck all the liars up there in the back woods of Maine. Shame on you all ::unhappy::
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Not excusing any of Marc Rosenberg's abuses but every ex-junkie/Heroin addict who injected for as long as Marc did do where long sleeve shirts. The scars are embarrassing and intimidate folks who are naive. Just say'in from a little experience.
Danny
-
Not excusing any of Marc Rosenberg's abuses but every ex-junkie/Heroin addict who injected for as long as Marc did do where long sleeve shirts. The scars are embarrassing and intimidate folks who are naive. Just say'in from a little experience.
Bear suits provide good coverage. Unless you're really into exposing yerself ... :moon:
-
So you are / were a dope addict yourself Danny?
-
:suicide: :spam: :suicide:
-
So you are / were a dope addict yourself Danny?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I was......
Danny
-
Kind of twisted here. Elan seems to employ alot of former or current users of hard core drug using habits. Marc Rosenberg, Jeffery Gottlieb (former user), Clare, Marty, ect. I guess when you fill out an application at Elan and write down you are or were a user, you basically have one foot in the door closer to being employed with them. I take it, if someone showed up to fill out an application and never took any drugs of any kind, would less likely be able to get a job at elan. Also having a history of abusing children also helps get the other foot in the door, as sick minds like to think alike.
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I said I would say no more but just one last thing, Elan was originally put together to take care of drug addicts but they could not make enough money, so then folks like yourself came.
Danny
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I said I would say no more but just one last thing, Elan was originally put together to take care of drug addicts but they could not make enough money, so then folks like yourself came.
Danny
No so then folks like us came and got abused by folks like you.......get real.
-
I agree with you Felice. This is seems to be common among ex staffers who worked at abusive programs. Allot of them live in "denial."
-
So you are / were a dope addict yourself Danny?
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I was......
Danny
Fornits records
-
I remember the following houses being rated as .. Elan-3> For drug abusers. Elan-8> For richm snob kids, and Elan-5> For the immature kids. There also was an Elan-7> Which was run by Ralph Maldonado, which had the smallest population, which I heard later merged with E-5 house.
I remember Rosendope trying to convince himself at first, then selling to the rest of the house, tha i had a drug problem. I smoked maybe 4 joints in my entire life before going to Elan. If I knew what I know now, I would be kicking Rosendopes areas in his face, and give him his own GM in front of the house to embarrass him because he was a double standard, lying, woman hating, self righteous junky! Elan loved profiling new residents, they would gather with the higher ups (directors and senior directors) and pick a set of problems and diagnose the new resident with them. Fortunately they were usually way off with everything on everyone, and you could see right through them that their main concern was making ever resident a cash cow and to keep it fed long after expireation date promised to funder. They must of gotten bonuses or something for every month after 18 months a resident stayed at elan. I assume TCK's bonus's back then were those hideous, out of style sweaters which the indina mongoloidist still wears to date. Just imagine him leaving the elan compound and visiting say a place like NYC. They would all stare at him even more then they would a homeless man sleeping on the street. Kruglik is a walking bill board for thrift stores.
And I take it everyone here has seen the videos on the elan site, where Kruglik is in some and in every video you see Kruglik moving his fore arm and hand while he speaks. He mine as well be saying (hi yuh yuh yuh) while he moves his hands in the air. Thats exactly what that FUCKER did in a GM and would also look at the floor constantly. He has a huge inferiority complex and could not look any human being in the eye for more then 1/10 of a second. He also constantly wpould look at the ground while walking. I'm surprised he never bumped into anything, seeing he would have his eyes fixated on the ground most of the time. For if he did happen to bump into something, or someone, I wonder if he would have the decency to excuse himself, or apologize. (Oh, me suh excuse me suh, hi yuh yuh yuh, me suh did not see you, hi yuh yuh yuh. BTW, me suh says you have nice penis, hi yuh yuh yuh). I had the opportunity to spit in TCK's food on many occassions, while bringing the lunch try over the E-1. For a time we used to place the plates of food around the table and I knew exactly where that FUCKER sat all of the time. I did once hear a rumor of one person who said he peed on the food a few times before bringing it over ot E-1. That would only enhance the flavor for TCK anyways. :rofl:
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I said I would say no more but just one last thing, Elan was originally put together to take care of drug addicts but they could not make enough money, so then folks like yourself came.
Danny
No so then folks like us came and got abused by folks like you.......get real.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well, Ouch!!!!!!!!! Was that necessary.That is the way it turned out though. Must you always throw me in there, when you say nobody even knows me. You can't have it both ways, can you?????
Where's the love Felice......
Danny
-
You were just another Joe Ricci Jr. Danny, so STFU.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well Thank You very much, I appreciate that you would think of me in the same light as that monster. Shows me how much you knew Joe and myself. It also shows me how well read you are.
Once again Thanks
Danny
-
Danny you are so clueless, this is very serious and you're making a mockery out of survivors bro. Think about it. You worked as a staff at one of the worst gulags (ELAN) while facilitating ring activities where children could have suffered fatal injuries. This doesn't seem to bother you, does it? Have you taken responsibility for it? Do you understand why other ELAN survivors are so pissed off at you?
:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
Come out, come out who ever you are here or PM. No it doesn't bother me when some disguised poster comes along with this shit, not at all. I am dancing all over. Take responsibility and show yourself when you ask such personal questions.
Otherwise move on down the road, your words are old and stale.
Danny
-
Don't avoid the questions Danny. Did you facilitate ring matches while you worked as a staff at ELAN? I want to see if you're going to admit any of the atrocities towards children at ELAN.
-
Don't avoid the questions Danny. Did you facilitate ring matches while you worked as a staff at ELAN? I want to see if you're going to admit any of the atrocities towards children at ELAN.
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Com'on get out of your hole. Your name tells us what type of hole your in. So please come out into the sunlight.
The sun is very healthy a ignition for regeneration.
Danny
-
Danny did you ever place bets with Marty on residents that were forced to box in the ring? Would you agree from a former staff members point of view, that the ring was the most exciting time when working at elan? I know Kruglik loved it! :tup:
He also loved making sure he was on time as soon as all the yelling and cursing started at a GM. Forget the HM part of it, that just bored Kruglik to death and he would conviently always make a speedy exit as soon as the GM winded down and the last spec of spit came flying out. I believe Krullik had a T-shirt that read "I love GM's". :hug:
-
Danny did you ever place bets with Marty on residents that were forced to box in the ring? Would you agree from a former staff members point of view, that the ring was the most exciting time when working at elan? I know Kruglik loved it! :tup:
He also loved making sure he was on time as soon as all the yelling and cursing started at a GM. Forget the HM part of it, that just bored Kruglik to death and he would conviently always make a speedy exit as soon as the GM winded down and the last spec of spit came flying out. I believe Krullik had a T-shirt that read "I love GM's". :hug:
:shamrock: :shamrock: :shamrock:
Last time ER, no more after this. You have the wrong guy, go read all my posts and talk with other Elan grads who will be honest concerning me. Then you will have my story. Depending on who you are and/or when you got there will explain what went on there. Most elan grads share from there experiences others who really weren't there or don't know the person there talking with share experiences they have read. What is your story, did you go to Elan and if you did,did you know me. Because if you knew me all this would be pointless.
I am bantering with you because of your posting, I didn't know in order to be a good Elanian I had to like your posting.
I apologize for being so rude, I probably should have introduced myself first. Then taken the softer road. Well another lesson learned. In the future I will keep my judgments to myself.
Hope you can accept, it is meant with sincerity.
Danny
-
What is it about Mfarty that you like so much, where as you are his friend? Is it his swollen hands and the way he constatly moves them while talking? Or how about the shit brown eyes, that he always has facing the ground when near other people because of a huge inferiorty complex? Or maybe it's those cheap, salvation army cardigan sweaters that went out of style a couple decades plus ago? I can't see anyone with a head screwed on correctly wanting to befriend a person like THAT! Unless ofcoarse, they just wanted to see him speak and look at him for a great laugh. :rofl:
Now wouldn't it make alot of sense if I was in elan with you, or even knew you, I would not be asking you questions?
I knew about the ring betting that went on, and I assume it was going on long before my time. I over heard TCK make a wager with another staff member and he said "I have $50 that says ***** ****** will knock ***** ******* down on his ass by the second round tops". TCK is nothing but a corrupt, excellent manipulator for an elan resident parents and one dishonest peice of monkey crap with extremely bad breath, beady shit brown eyed, swollen hands, hi yuh yuh mother fucker! He's also a great thief! I lost track of how many times a resident complained about how their bags went missing, clothing mysteriously disappeared, ect, ECT..... :soapbox:
-
I knew about the ring betting that went on, and I assume it was going on long before my time. I over heard TCK make a wager with another staff member and he said "I have $50 that says ***** ****** will knock ***** ******* down on his ass by the second round tops".
Just how SICK is that? I don't think this point can be overemphasized...
Not only were kids forced to eviscerate each other verbally, and physically, but the practice of such was even considered to be SPORT by the staff!!
:clown:
-
TCK was able to purchase many rubber dicks with his winnings! :roflmao:
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I knew about the ring betting that went on, and I assume it was going on long before my time. I over heard TCK make a wager with another staff member and he said "I have $50 that says ***** ****** will knock ***** ******* down on his ass by the second round tops".
Just how SICK is that? I don't think this point can be overemphasized...
Not only were kids forced to eviscerate each other verbally, and physically, but the practice of such was even considered to be SPORT by the staff!!
:clown:
Ursus no questions you just accept this statement at face value. I see you do this alot when what is being said is from someone you like or the topic is one you like. This is exactly why no one really take Elan seriously.
Could I have more feedback on this overheard comment from Marty????. Who did he say this to???? who was in the ring???? and if possible who else was there?????
It is not that I don't believe you, I just want more background to this incident.
Danny
-
You mean you want to be reminded which specific ring bet incident this was, because there was so many that you lost track? You truly are the hi yuh yuh yuh master of disguise Marty.
-
Ursus no questions you just accept this statement at face value.
Danny
We don't get very far with you by asking direct questions, so we're left with what we see written here and other places.
Now, since you ignored all the questions about dragging a girl around behind a van originally, here's my post again.......
Yeah, I never got an answer about that either and it is an extremely valid question. You're always demanding to know the history and background of the people you're arguing with. So.......is it true Danny? Please explain the circumstances that led to this. I'm sure Who will be impressed with your reasoning and justification. After all, I'm sure she somehow brought it upon herself, right? Surely it was all in an effort to 'help' the poor girl, right? It was to keep her from hurting herself, right? Some sort of fantastic new "alternative" therapy, right?
Man up. It's a valid question.
-
Ursus no questions you just accept this statement at face value.
Danny
We don't get very far with you by asking direct questions, so we're left with what we see written here and other places.
Now, since you ignored all the questions about dragging a girl around behind a van originally, here's my post again.......
Yeah, I never got an answer about that either and it is an extremely valid question. You're always demanding to know the history and background of the people you're arguing with. So.......is it true Danny? Please explain the circumstances that led to this. I'm sure Who will be impressed with your reasoning and justification. After all, I'm sure she somehow brought it upon herself, right? Surely it was all in an effort to 'help' the poor girl, right? It was to keep her from hurting herself, right? Some sort of fantastic new "alternative" therapy, right?
Man up. It's a valid question.
**crickets chirping**
-
I would venture to say Danny knows allot more about this case than he says he does. Staff often do in other programs throughout the country and around the world.
Friday, May 31, 2002
Ex-students at Skakel trial describe Elan as 'horrific'
By DAVID GURLIACCI, Special to the Portland Press Herald
Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
:
Elan School defends program
As witness after witness at the Michael Skakel murder trial took the stand in the past two weeks to describe events at the Elan School during the late 1970s and early 1980s, jurors and the public have been given a picture of what the school in Poland, Maine, may have been like.
In a word: horrific.
Young people in trouble with the law or their parents, and often involved in drug or alcohol abuse, were sent to the school and put on a strict regime of work, group therapy, peer pressure to reform, public humiliation, screamed reprimands and disciplinary beatings, according to witnesses at the trial.
The testimony about the Elan School's history could be pivotal to the high-profile case, because defense attorneys are arguing that extreme conditions at the school 20 or more years ago created an atmosphere in which anyone could be made to say anything.
Some former Elan students are testifying for the prosecution, saying they heard Skakel confess to murder. Other former Elan students are testifying in Skakel's defense, saying Elan school officials threatened and even abused students to the point where confessions and statements made there should be viewed skeptically, at best. Closing arguments in the trial are scheduled for Monday.
In his opening arguments on May 7, Skakel's defense attorney, Michael Sherman, told the jury that the Elan School was "like a mix of the Hanoi Hilton and Stalag 17."
Former Elan students have been star witnesses at the trial of Skakel, a nephew of the late U.S. Sen. Robert F. Kennedy who attended the school from 1978 to 1980. The late Joseph Ricci, founder and executive director of the school, told students at a "general meeting" in 1978 that Skakel may have killed a Greenwich, Conn., girl in 1975, according to witnesses.
Skakel, now 41, was arrested on the murder charge in January 2000. Renewed publicity about the crime helped turn up several Elan students and others who said Skakel made incriminating statements about the murder.
Two former students say Skakel admitted his role to them. Other former students disagree, saying they never heard Skakel admit to the crime. They recall that he either denied killing the girl or said he was so intoxicated on alcohol and drugs that night that he didn't know. Some of the former students who testified think Skakel is guilty. Others say he's innocent. Some are just suspicious.
But whatever they testified about Skakel, they were consistent in their views of the school they attended: They described it as a place designed to terrorize them, with beatings and humiliation regular features of life.
Alice Dunn of Portland was at the school from 1976 to 1978 as a student, and until 1982 as a member of the staff. In testimony, she described the school's discipline process as "part of the general plan of humiliation that would lower someone's self-esteem and keep them in a general state where they were in constant terror."
One witness, Michael Meredith of New York City, attended Elan in the 1980s after Skakel had left. He said the school at that time was abusive emotionally but not physically, and he believed it had reformed some of its practices by then.
The current administration of Elan rejects the harsh descriptions.
In response to questioning from various news organizations this week, the school's lawyer and spokesman, John Campbell of Campbell and Associates, distributed a five-page statement defending the school and rebutting some of the accusations against it.
Campbell said Tuesday that he is not authorized to make any further statements about the controversy.
"Over the past 30 years, the Elan School has helped thousands of students," the statement reads. "Hundreds of social workers, special-education personnel, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors and therapists have reviewed the Elan program and its successes and have continued to send students to Elan."
A review team appointed by Maine Gov. James Longley in 1975 - before Skakel attended the school - said Elan students "usually expressed newly found feelings of dignity, self-assurance and mental well-being, and they attributed these feelings to the treatment they were receiving."
The Elan statement quoted the panel as reporting it found "no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or mistreatment."
According to the statement, "Elan's appointment calendar books from 1978 and 1979 (while Skakel and the witnesses were at the school) show that virtually every week of the year there were reviews of the program at Elan by physicians or regulatory officials from all over the country."
Elan was founded in 1970 as a treatment center and school for troubled youths by Ricci, who was executive director of the school in the 1970s and 1980s. Ricci, a former drug addict who had no academic degrees in the field of therapy, later bought the Scarborough Downs racetrack and ran for governor. He died in January 2001.
"A lot of his role (at the school) was to scare the crap out of people," said Charles Seigan of Highland Park, Ill., testifying at the Skakel trial last week. Laughter erupted in the courtroom after that comment, but he continued: "I mean, seriously, that was (Ricci's) role, and to be the man, the dude, the main guy. . . . He liked it, too - to be a god.
"Joe Ricci would just get really upset when somebody wasn't doing what he wanted them to do," said Seigan, who was at Elan for 18 months, starting in 1978. "Sometimes he lost his temper and made it quite horrific on some people."
The school's statement pointed out that, when Ricci died, "51 senators and representatives in the Maine Legislature adopted a special resolution in honor of Mr. Ricci recognizing his 'energy, dedication and service to his community and the state' and 'his many achievements, including co-founding the Elan adolescent treatment center.' "
Skakel and all of the former Elan students who testified at the trial were at Elan 3, one of several units at the school. Usually 40 to 50 students lived at Elan 3 in separate male and female dormitories. The school had about 150 students at the time, witnesses said.
Students would get up about 7 a.m., have breakfast, then work for most of the morning at various jobs around the campus. The afternoons were often devoted to group therapy sessions of various types and the evenings, from about 6 to 10 p.m., to school.
Students were ranked in a rigid hierarchy, much like a military school. Higher-ranking students typically screamed at those in lower ranks whom they were supervising, witnesses said.
"It was just a lot of screaming and yelling that would go on during the day," Seigan said. "The structure of the house was to yell and scream all day to provoke a reaction from people. . . . It was more of a peer-pressure modality - treatment modality - at that time."
For major violations of the rules, the entire campus would be convened in a "general meeting" - which was something like a pep rally, with forceful criticism aimed at an individual.
" 'General meeting' was probably the scariest word you would hear," Seigan said.
The purpose of general meetings, he said, "was basically to scare the heck out of the residents and make sure the person who was (the subject of the meeting) didn't do it again, and the people watching would never do what he did because the punishment was not worth it."
Taking drugs, having sex, drinking alcohol or running away were all reasons for a general meeting, former students said. But they could be held for other reasons, too.
After Skakel fled from the school and was returned, he was prepared for his first general meeting for days in advance, Dunn said.
"They had left him in a corner of . . . the dining room of Elan 3," she testified. "He had to sit for an hour and stand for an hour for three days, with basically no sleep."
General meetings could run from 45 minutes to two hours, Dunn said, although another former student, Michael Wiggins of South Carolina, recalled some that lasted far longer.
"There was no warning," Seigan said. "It was yelled many times. You dropped what you were doing, and you just high-tailed it into the dining room and sat, and you just looked forward, and you didn't say a word and waited for direction."
People would stomp their feet and clap their hands until the person "being sacrificed to the gods of therapy" was brought in and made to stand on a stage at one end of the dining room, Seigan said.
Dunn recalled that the dining room echoed "like a cathedral." The student who was the focus of the general meeting would be kept in a room nearby, not close enough to hear what was said, but close enough to hear the racket, Wiggins said.
"I was never a victim of this - and I believe that is a good word, 'victim,' " he said. "I can only feel it would be something horrific for someone to go through."
For Skakel's first general meeting, Dunn recalled Ricci standing with an inch-thick file folder in his hands.
"He was very intimidating. . . . Referring to some documents, he had a file in his hand he was looking at, and kind of reading incidents from that as he was confronting Michael," she said.
Ricci indicated through questions to Skakel that Skakel was somehow involved in the murder of Martha Moxley, and Ricci accused Skakel of killing her, Dunn said.
At first Skakel denied it, which seemed to make Ricci lose his temper, she said.
At various points, some students were encouraged to rush up toward Skakel and yell in his face. This typically happened several times during any general meeting, the former students testified.
"They get up and run at you and slam you up against the wall, and poke their fingers in your chest, and yell at you so loud you can't even understand what they're saying," Wiggins recalled.
Dunn testified that in yelling at someone, there was plenty of opportunity to manage to spit in the subject's face, and some students would do it on purpose.
If a student who was the subject of the general meeting wasn't giving the proper response to school authorities at the meeting, they would often order the student to bend over to be spanked or take part in a "boxing ring" - short bouts of boxing with another student.
The boxing was done with boxing gloves and headgear. There was no actual roped-off "ring," but people would form a human circle around the boxers.
"You would go into the ring for one-minute periods and you would basically fight," Dunn said, although Wiggins remembered rounds lasting three minutes.
Skakel's case was typical, Dunn said. After a round he would be asked to admit to the murder, and when he continued to deny committing it, he would be put back in for another round with a new, fresh person.
While the boxing was going on, people were encouraged to cheer, Wiggins said. "It's just, you know, 'Hit him hard! Hit him hard! Get him! Get him! Get him!' "
"The person in the ring could never win," Dunn said, because the process would be repeated with fresh opponents.
Skakel lasted for six or eight rounds before he finally changed his answer to "I don't know," and the boxing stopped, Dunn said. "That particular day, it's the only way that it (the boxing) stopped."
Former Elan student Elizabeth Arnold described Skakel's general meeting as a session in which he was "brutalized."
Asked by Skakel's defense attorney if the victim would be "beaten to a pulp" in the boxing ring, Seigan answered, "That didn't happen at Elan 3, generally."
The statement just released by Elan quoted from the 1975 report on the school by the Maine review panel, which defended the school's use of "boxing rings."
The panel was quoted as stating, "One of the cardinal rules of the Elan program was that the use of physical violence, by either a staff member or a resident, is strictly outlawed. . . . Only acts of repeated physical violence on the part of residents resulted in a person being placed in the ring where rounds lasted about one minute and the participants are evenly matched."
Several former students were asked about Kim Freehill, a slightly-built girl at Elan who was spanked so hard that a helicopter was called in to airlift her to a hospital for treatment.
"I watched them beat Kim until she was bruised from the back of her knees to the top of her shoulders with open sores across her buttocks," Dunn testified at a pretrial hearing in June 2000. "And I watched her retreat into a shell where she just wasn't even there as a person. . . . I've never seen somebody hurt that badly."
Longer-term punishment would generally follow the general meeting, Seigan said. One punishment was to be "shot down," or stripped of all privileges previously earned at the school. "You were put into shorts generally, and no shoes, and you were made to scrub floors all day long and clean out trash bins," he said.
Dunn said cardboard signs were generally used when administrators wanted students to admit to some problem. Skakel's sign after the general meeting read, "Confront me on why I killed Martha Moxley." Wiggins remembered Skakel's sign "went down to about his shins and over his shoulders."
Students wore their signs during all waking hours, and had to stand and read their own signs aloud before each meal in the dining hall for weeks following a general meeting. After six weeks, Skakel's sign was removed.
"Most people that were there wore signs," Seigan said.
Students were encouraged to confront those who were wearing signs. Dorothy Rogers of Asheville, N.C., recalled one group therapy session in which Skakel was confronted.
"One student stood up and said, 'How does it feel to beat a girl to death with a golf club?' " Rogers testified.
Dunce caps had to be worn by students who received D's or F's during weekly school grading periods, other former students testified. For one week of bad grades, a student would wear a dunce cap 2 or 3 feet high, Dunn said. For two consecutive weeks of bad grades, the dunce cap would be about 5 feet high. The cap would be worn all day.
Most students wore them at some point, Seigan said.
Perhaps the most severe punishment given to students was something called a "cowboy ass-kicking session," Seigan said. He said it was "nothing more than a beating . . . a physical beating."
"None of the staff did it, but they allowed it," Seigan said. He said officials at the school "encouraged it and promoted it. . . . It was a passion, almost."
David Gurliacci is a United Press International correspondent covering the Skakel trial.
This article is provided for educational purposes only as a public service by the Oakton Institute.
-
I would venture to say Danny knows allot more about this case than he says he does. Staff often do in other programs throughout the country and around the world.
Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here.
Danny
Friday, May 31, 2002
Ex-students at Skakel trial describe Elan as 'horrific'
By DAVID GURLIACCI, Special to the Portland Press Herald
Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
:
Elan School defends program
As witness after witness at the Michael Skakel murder trial took the stand in the past two weeks to describe events at the Elan School during the late 1970s and early 1980s, jurors and the public have been given a picture of what the school in Poland, Maine, may have been like.
In a word: horrific.
Young people in trouble with the law or their parents, and often involved in drug or alcohol abuse, were sent to the school and put on a strict regime of work, group therapy, peer pressure to reform, public humiliation, screamed reprimands and disciplinary beatings, according to witnesses at the trial.
The testimony about the Elan School's history could be pivotal to the high-profile case, because defense attorneys are arguing that extreme conditions at the school 20 or more years ago created an atmosphere in which anyone could be made to say anything.
Some former Elan students are testifying for the prosecution, saying they heard Skakel confess to murder. Other former Elan students are testifying in Skakel's defense, saying Elan school officials threatened and even abused students to the point where confessions and statements made there should be viewed skeptically, at best. Closing arguments in the trial are scheduled for Monday.
In his opening arguments on May 7, Skakel's defense attorney, Michael Sherman, told the jury that the Elan School was "like a mix of the Hanoi Hilton and Stalag 17."
Former Elan students have been star witnesses at the trial of Skakel, a nephew of the late U.S. Sen. Robert F. Kennedy who attended the school from 1978 to 1980. The late Joseph Ricci, founder and executive director of the school, told students at a "general meeting" in 1978 that Skakel may have killed a Greenwich, Conn., girl in 1975, according to witnesses.
Skakel, now 41, was arrested on the murder charge in January 2000. Renewed publicity about the crime helped turn up several Elan students and others who said Skakel made incriminating statements about the murder.
Two former students say Skakel admitted his role to them. Other former students disagree, saying they never heard Skakel admit to the crime. They recall that he either denied killing the girl or said he was so intoxicated on alcohol and drugs that night that he didn't know. Some of the former students who testified think Skakel is guilty. Others say he's innocent. Some are just suspicious.
But whatever they testified about Skakel, they were consistent in their views of the school they attended: They described it as a place designed to terrorize them, with beatings and humiliation regular features of life.
Alice Dunn of Portland was at the school from 1976 to 1978 as a student, and until 1982 as a member of the staff. In testimony, she described the school's discipline process as "part of the general plan of humiliation that would lower someone's self-esteem and keep them in a general state where they were in constant terror."
One witness, Michael Meredith of New York City, attended Elan in the 1980s after Skakel had left. He said the school at that time was abusive emotionally but not physically, and he believed it had reformed some of its practices by then.
The current administration of Elan rejects the harsh descriptions.
In response to questioning from various news organizations this week, the school's lawyer and spokesman, John Campbell of Campbell and Associates, distributed a five-page statement defending the school and rebutting some of the accusations against it.
Campbell said Tuesday that he is not authorized to make any further statements about the controversy.
"Over the past 30 years, the Elan School has helped thousands of students," the statement reads. "Hundreds of social workers, special-education personnel, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors and therapists have reviewed the Elan program and its successes and have continued to send students to Elan."
A review team appointed by Maine Gov. James Longley in 1975 - before Skakel attended the school - said Elan students "usually expressed newly found feelings of dignity, self-assurance and mental well-being, and they attributed these feelings to the treatment they were receiving."
The Elan statement quoted the panel as reporting it found "no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or mistreatment."
According to the statement, "Elan's appointment calendar books from 1978 and 1979 (while Skakel and the witnesses were at the school) show that virtually every week of the year there were reviews of the program at Elan by physicians or regulatory officials from all over the country."
Elan was founded in 1970 as a treatment center and school for troubled youths by Ricci, who was executive director of the school in the 1970s and 1980s. Ricci, a former drug addict who had no academic degrees in the field of therapy, later bought the Scarborough Downs racetrack and ran for governor. He died in January 2001.
"A lot of his role (at the school) was to scare the crap out of people," said Charles Seigan of Highland Park, Ill., testifying at the Skakel trial last week. Laughter erupted in the courtroom after that comment, but he continued: "I mean, seriously, that was (Ricci's) role, and to be the man, the dude, the main guy. . . . He liked it, too - to be a god.
"Joe Ricci would just get really upset when somebody wasn't doing what he wanted them to do," said Seigan, who was at Elan for 18 months, starting in 1978. "Sometimes he lost his temper and made it quite horrific on some people."
The school's statement pointed out that, when Ricci died, "51 senators and representatives in the Maine Legislature adopted a special resolution in honor of Mr. Ricci recognizing his 'energy, dedication and service to his community and the state' and 'his many achievements, including co-founding the Elan adolescent treatment center.' "
Skakel and all of the former Elan students who testified at the trial were at Elan 3, one of several units at the school. Usually 40 to 50 students lived at Elan 3 in separate male and female dormitories. The school had about 150 students at the time, witnesses said.
Students would get up about 7 a.m., have breakfast, then work for most of the morning at various jobs around the campus. The afternoons were often devoted to group therapy sessions of various types and the evenings, from about 6 to 10 p.m., to school.
Students were ranked in a rigid hierarchy, much like a military school. Higher-ranking students typically screamed at those in lower ranks whom they were supervising, witnesses said.
"It was just a lot of screaming and yelling that would go on during the day," Seigan said. "The structure of the house was to yell and scream all day to provoke a reaction from people. . . . It was more of a peer-pressure modality - treatment modality - at that time."
For major violations of the rules, the entire campus would be convened in a "general meeting" - which was something like a pep rally, with forceful criticism aimed at an individual.
" 'General meeting' was probably the scariest word you would hear," Seigan said.
The purpose of general meetings, he said, "was basically to scare the heck out of the residents and make sure the person who was (the subject of the meeting) didn't do it again, and the people watching would never do what he did because the punishment was not worth it."
Taking drugs, having sex, drinking alcohol or running away were all reasons for a general meeting, former students said. But they could be held for other reasons, too.
After Skakel fled from the school and was returned, he was prepared for his first general meeting for days in advance, Dunn said.
"They had left him in a corner of . . . the dining room of Elan 3," she testified. "He had to sit for an hour and stand for an hour for three days, with basically no sleep."
General meetings could run from 45 minutes to two hours, Dunn said, although another former student, Michael Wiggins of South Carolina, recalled some that lasted far longer.
"There was no warning," Seigan said. "It was yelled many times. You dropped what you were doing, and you just high-tailed it into the dining room and sat, and you just looked forward, and you didn't say a word and waited for direction."
People would stomp their feet and clap their hands until the person "being sacrificed to the gods of therapy" was brought in and made to stand on a stage at one end of the dining room, Seigan said.
Dunn recalled that the dining room echoed "like a cathedral." The student who was the focus of the general meeting would be kept in a room nearby, not close enough to hear what was said, but close enough to hear the racket, Wiggins said.
"I was never a victim of this - and I believe that is a good word, 'victim,' " he said. "I can only feel it would be something horrific for someone to go through."
For Skakel's first general meeting, Dunn recalled Ricci standing with an inch-thick file folder in his hands.
"He was very intimidating. . . . Referring to some documents, he had a file in his hand he was looking at, and kind of reading incidents from that as he was confronting Michael," she said.
Ricci indicated through questions to Skakel that Skakel was somehow involved in the murder of Martha Moxley, and Ricci accused Skakel of killing her, Dunn said.
At first Skakel denied it, which seemed to make Ricci lose his temper, she said.
At various points, some students were encouraged to rush up toward Skakel and yell in his face. This typically happened several times during any general meeting, the former students testified.
"They get up and run at you and slam you up against the wall, and poke their fingers in your chest, and yell at you so loud you can't even understand what they're saying," Wiggins recalled.
Dunn testified that in yelling at someone, there was plenty of opportunity to manage to spit in the subject's face, and some students would do it on purpose.
If a student who was the subject of the general meeting wasn't giving the proper response to school authorities at the meeting, they would often order the student to bend over to be spanked or take part in a "boxing ring" - short bouts of boxing with another student.
The boxing was done with boxing gloves and headgear. There was no actual roped-off "ring," but people would form a human circle around the boxers.
"You would go into the ring for one-minute periods and you would basically fight," Dunn said, although Wiggins remembered rounds lasting three minutes.
Skakel's case was typical, Dunn said. After a round he would be asked to admit to the murder, and when he continued to deny committing it, he would be put back in for another round with a new, fresh person.
While the boxing was going on, people were encouraged to cheer, Wiggins said. "It's just, you know, 'Hit him hard! Hit him hard! Get him! Get him! Get him!' "
"The person in the ring could never win," Dunn said, because the process would be repeated with fresh opponents.
Skakel lasted for six or eight rounds before he finally changed his answer to "I don't know," and the boxing stopped, Dunn said. "That particular day, it's the only way that it (the boxing) stopped."
Former Elan student Elizabeth Arnold described Skakel's general meeting as a session in which he was "brutalized."
Asked by Skakel's defense attorney if the victim would be "beaten to a pulp" in the boxing ring, Seigan answered, "That didn't happen at Elan 3, generally."
The statement just released by Elan quoted from the 1975 report on the school by the Maine review panel, which defended the school's use of "boxing rings."
The panel was quoted as stating, "One of the cardinal rules of the Elan program was that the use of physical violence, by either a staff member or a resident, is strictly outlawed. . . . Only acts of repeated physical violence on the part of residents resulted in a person being placed in the ring where rounds lasted about one minute and the participants are evenly matched."
Several former students were asked about Kim Freehill, a slightly-built girl at Elan who was spanked so hard that a helicopter was called in to airlift her to a hospital for treatment.
"I watched them beat Kim until she was bruised from the back of her knees to the top of her shoulders with open sores across her buttocks," Dunn testified at a pretrial hearing in June 2000. "And I watched her retreat into a shell where she just wasn't even there as a person. . . . I've never seen somebody hurt that badly."
Longer-term punishment would generally follow the general meeting, Seigan said. One punishment was to be "shot down," or stripped of all privileges previously earned at the school. "You were put into shorts generally, and no shoes, and you were made to scrub floors all day long and clean out trash bins," he said.
Dunn said cardboard signs were generally used when administrators wanted students to admit to some problem. Skakel's sign after the general meeting read, "Confront me on why I killed Martha Moxley." Wiggins remembered Skakel's sign "went down to about his shins and over his shoulders."
Students wore their signs during all waking hours, and had to stand and read their own signs aloud before each meal in the dining hall for weeks following a general meeting. After six weeks, Skakel's sign was removed.
"Most people that were there wore signs," Seigan said.
Students were encouraged to confront those who were wearing signs. Dorothy Rogers of Asheville, N.C., recalled one group therapy session in which Skakel was confronted.
"One student stood up and said, 'How does it feel to beat a girl to death with a golf club?' " Rogers testified.
Dunce caps had to be worn by students who received D's or F's during weekly school grading periods, other former students testified. For one week of bad grades, a student would wear a dunce cap 2 or 3 feet high, Dunn said. For two consecutive weeks of bad grades, the dunce cap would be about 5 feet high. The cap would be worn all day.
Most students wore them at some point, Seigan said.
Perhaps the most severe punishment given to students was something called a "cowboy ass-kicking session," Seigan said. He said it was "nothing more than a beating . . . a physical beating."
"None of the staff did it, but they allowed it," Seigan said. He said officials at the school "encouraged it and promoted it. . . . It was a passion, almost."
David Gurliacci is a United Press International correspondent covering the Skakel trial.
This article is provided for educational purposes only as a public service by the Oakton Institute.
-
Re: ELAN school staff are well trained
Postby DannyB II » 55 minutes ago
alcoholics anonymous wrote:I would venture to say Danny knows allot more about this case than he says he does. Staff often do in other programs throughout the country and around the world.
Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here.
Danny
Friday, May 31, 2002
Ex-students at Skakel trial describe Elan as 'horrific'
By DAVID GURLIACCI, Special to the Portland Press Herald
Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
:
Elan School defends program
As witness after witness at the Michael Skakel murder trial took the stand in the past two weeks to describe events at the Elan School during the late 1970s and early 1980s, jurors and the public have been given a picture of what the school in Poland, Maine, may have been like.
In a word: horrific.
Young people in trouble with the law or their parents, and often involved in drug or alcohol abuse, were sent to the school and put on a strict regime of work, group therapy, peer pressure to reform, public humiliation, screamed reprimands and disciplinary beatings, according to witnesses at the trial.
The testimony about the Elan School's history could be pivotal to the high-profile case, because defense attorneys are arguing that extreme conditions at the school 20 or more years ago created an atmosphere in which anyone could be made to say anything.
Some former Elan students are testifying for the prosecution, saying they heard Skakel confess to murder. Other former Elan students are testifying in Skakel's defense, saying Elan school officials threatened and even abused students to the point where confessions and statements made there should be viewed skeptically, at best. Closing arguments in the trial are scheduled for Monday.
In his opening arguments on May 7, Skakel's defense attorney, Michael Sherman, told the jury that the Elan School was "like a mix of the Hanoi Hilton and Stalag 17."
Former Elan students have been star witnesses at the trial of Skakel, a nephew of the late U.S. Sen. Robert F. Kennedy who attended the school from 1978 to 1980. The late Joseph Ricci, founder and executive director of the school, told students at a "general meeting" in 1978 that Skakel may have killed a Greenwich, Conn., girl in 1975, according to witnesses.
Skakel, now 41, was arrested on the murder charge in January 2000. Renewed publicity about the crime helped turn up several Elan students and others who said Skakel made incriminating statements about the murder.
Two former students say Skakel admitted his role to them. Other former students disagree, saying they never heard Skakel admit to the crime. They recall that he either denied killing the girl or said he was so intoxicated on alcohol and drugs that night that he didn't know. Some of the former students who testified think Skakel is guilty. Others say he's innocent. Some are just suspicious.
But whatever they testified about Skakel, they were consistent in their views of the school they attended: They described it as a place designed to terrorize them, with beatings and humiliation regular features of life.
Alice Dunn of Portland was at the school from 1976 to 1978 as a student, and until 1982 as a member of the staff. In testimony, she described the school's discipline process as "part of the general plan of humiliation that would lower someone's self-esteem and keep them in a general state where they were in constant terror."
One witness, Michael Meredith of New York City, attended Elan in the 1980s after Skakel had left. He said the school at that time was abusive emotionally but not physically, and he believed it had reformed some of its practices by then.
The current administration of Elan rejects the harsh descriptions.
In response to questioning from various news organizations this week, the school's lawyer and spokesman, John Campbell of Campbell and Associates, distributed a five-page statement defending the school and rebutting some of the accusations against it.
Campbell said Tuesday that he is not authorized to make any further statements about the controversy.
"Over the past 30 years, the Elan School has helped thousands of students," the statement reads. "Hundreds of social workers, special-education personnel, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors and therapists have reviewed the Elan program and its successes and have continued to send students to Elan."
A review team appointed by Maine Gov. James Longley in 1975 - before Skakel attended the school - said Elan students "usually expressed newly found feelings of dignity, self-assurance and mental well-being, and they attributed these feelings to the treatment they were receiving."
The Elan statement quoted the panel as reporting it found "no evidence of unjustifiable denials of civil liberties or mistreatment."
According to the statement, "Elan's appointment calendar books from 1978 and 1979 (while Skakel and the witnesses were at the school) show that virtually every week of the year there were reviews of the program at Elan by physicians or regulatory officials from all over the country."
Elan was founded in 1970 as a treatment center and school for troubled youths by Ricci, who was executive director of the school in the 1970s and 1980s. Ricci, a former drug addict who had no academic degrees in the field of therapy, later bought the Scarborough Downs racetrack and ran for governor. He died in January 2001.
"A lot of his role (at the school) was to scare the crap out of people," said Charles Seigan of Highland Park, Ill., testifying at the Skakel trial last week. Laughter erupted in the courtroom after that comment, but he continued: "I mean, seriously, that was (Ricci's) role, and to be the man, the dude, the main guy. . . . He liked it, too - to be a god.
"Joe Ricci would just get really upset when somebody wasn't doing what he wanted them to do," said Seigan, who was at Elan for 18 months, starting in 1978. "Sometimes he lost his temper and made it quite horrific on some people."
The school's statement pointed out that, when Ricci died, "51 senators and representatives in the Maine Legislature adopted a special resolution in honor of Mr. Ricci recognizing his 'energy, dedication and service to his community and the state' and 'his many achievements, including co-founding the Elan adolescent treatment center.' "
Skakel and all of the former Elan students who testified at the trial were at Elan 3, one of several units at the school. Usually 40 to 50 students lived at Elan 3 in separate male and female dormitories. The school had about 150 students at the time, witnesses said.
Students would get up about 7 a.m., have breakfast, then work for most of the morning at various jobs around the campus. The afternoons were often devoted to group therapy sessions of various types and the evenings, from about 6 to 10 p.m., to school.
Students were ranked in a rigid hierarchy, much like a military school. Higher-ranking students typically screamed at those in lower ranks whom they were supervising, witnesses said.
"It was just a lot of screaming and yelling that would go on during the day," Seigan said. "The structure of the house was to yell and scream all day to provoke a reaction from people. . . . It was more of a peer-pressure modality - treatment modality - at that time."
For major violations of the rules, the entire campus would be convened in a "general meeting" - which was something like a pep rally, with forceful criticism aimed at an individual.
" 'General meeting' was probably the scariest word you would hear," Seigan said.
The purpose of general meetings, he said, "was basically to scare the heck out of the residents and make sure the person who was (the subject of the meeting) didn't do it again, and the people watching would never do what he did because the punishment was not worth it."
Taking drugs, having sex, drinking alcohol or running away were all reasons for a general meeting, former students said. But they could be held for other reasons, too.
After Skakel fled from the school and was returned, he was prepared for his first general meeting for days in advance, Dunn said.
"They had left him in a corner of . . . the dining room of Elan 3," she testified. "He had to sit for an hour and stand for an hour for three days, with basically no sleep."
General meetings could run from 45 minutes to two hours, Dunn said, although another former student, Michael Wiggins of South Carolina, recalled some that lasted far longer.
"There was no warning," Seigan said. "It was yelled many times. You dropped what you were doing, and you just high-tailed it into the dining room and sat, and you just looked forward, and you didn't say a word and waited for direction."
People would stomp their feet and clap their hands until the person "being sacrificed to the gods of therapy" was brought in and made to stand on a stage at one end of the dining room, Seigan said.
Dunn recalled that the dining room echoed "like a cathedral." The student who was the focus of the general meeting would be kept in a room nearby, not close enough to hear what was said, but close enough to hear the racket, Wiggins said.
"I was never a victim of this - and I believe that is a good word, 'victim,' " he said. "I can only feel it would be something horrific for someone to go through."
For Skakel's first general meeting, Dunn recalled Ricci standing with an inch-thick file folder in his hands.
"He was very intimidating. . . . Referring to some documents, he had a file in his hand he was looking at, and kind of reading incidents from that as he was confronting Michael," she said.
Ricci indicated through questions to Skakel that Skakel was somehow involved in the murder of Martha Moxley, and Ricci accused Skakel of killing her, Dunn said.
At first Skakel denied it, which seemed to make Ricci lose his temper, she said.
At various points, some students were encouraged to rush up toward Skakel and yell in his face. This typically happened several times during any general meeting, the former students testified.
"They get up and run at you and slam you up against the wall, and poke their fingers in your chest, and yell at you so loud you can't even understand what they're saying," Wiggins recalled.
Dunn testified that in yelling at someone, there was plenty of opportunity to manage to spit in the subject's face, and some students would do it on purpose.
If a student who was the subject of the general meeting wasn't giving the proper response to school authorities at the meeting, they would often order the student to bend over to be spanked or take part in a "boxing ring" - short bouts of boxing with another student.
The boxing was done with boxing gloves and headgear. There was no actual roped-off "ring," but people would form a human circle around the boxers.
"You would go into the ring for one-minute periods and you would basically fight," Dunn said, although Wiggins remembered rounds lasting three minutes.
Skakel's case was typical, Dunn said. After a round he would be asked to admit to the murder, and when he continued to deny committing it, he would be put back in for another round with a new, fresh person.
While the boxing was going on, people were encouraged to cheer, Wiggins said. "It's just, you know, 'Hit him hard! Hit him hard! Get him! Get him! Get him!' "
"The person in the ring could never win," Dunn said, because the process would be repeated with fresh opponents.
Skakel lasted for six or eight rounds before he finally changed his answer to "I don't know," and the boxing stopped, Dunn said. "That particular day, it's the only way that it (the boxing) stopped."
Former Elan student Elizabeth Arnold described Skakel's general meeting as a session in which he was "brutalized."
Asked by Skakel's defense attorney if the victim would be "beaten to a pulp" in the boxing ring, Seigan answered, "That didn't happen at Elan 3, generally."
The statement just released by Elan quoted from the 1975 report on the school by the Maine review panel, which defended the school's use of "boxing rings."
The panel was quoted as stating, "One of the cardinal rules of the Elan program was that the use of physical violence, by either a staff member or a resident, is strictly outlawed. . . . Only acts of repeated physical violence on the part of residents resulted in a person being placed in the ring where rounds lasted about one minute and the participants are evenly matched."
Several former students were asked about Kim Freehill, a slightly-built girl at Elan who was spanked so hard that a helicopter was called in to airlift her to a hospital for treatment.
"I watched them beat Kim until she was bruised from the back of her knees to the top of her shoulders with open sores across her buttocks," Dunn testified at a pretrial hearing in June 2000. "And I watched her retreat into a shell where she just wasn't even there as a person. . . . I've never seen somebody hurt that badly."
Longer-term punishment would generally follow the general meeting, Seigan said. One punishment was to be "shot down," or stripped of all privileges previously earned at the school. "You were put into shorts generally, and no shoes, and you were made to scrub floors all day long and clean out trash bins," he said.
Dunn said cardboard signs were generally used when administrators wanted students to admit to some problem. Skakel's sign after the general meeting read, "Confront me on why I killed Martha Moxley." Wiggins remembered Skakel's sign "went down to about his shins and over his shoulders."
Students wore their signs during all waking hours, and had to stand and read their own signs aloud before each meal in the dining hall for weeks following a general meeting. After six weeks, Skakel's sign was removed.
"Most people that were there wore signs," Seigan said.
Students were encouraged to confront those who were wearing signs. Dorothy Rogers of Asheville, N.C., recalled one group therapy session in which Skakel was confronted.
"One student stood up and said, 'How does it feel to beat a girl to death with a golf club?' " Rogers testified.
Dunce caps had to be worn by students who received D's or F's during weekly school grading periods, other former students testified. For one week of bad grades, a student would wear a dunce cap 2 or 3 feet high, Dunn said. For two consecutive weeks of bad grades, the dunce cap would be about 5 feet high. The cap would be worn all day.
Most students wore them at some point, Seigan said.
Perhaps the most severe punishment given to students was something called a "cowboy ass-kicking session," Seigan said. He said it was "nothing more than a beating . . . a physical beating."
"None of the staff did it, but they allowed it," Seigan said. He said officials at the school "encouraged it and promoted it. . . . It was a passion, almost."
David Gurliacci is a United Press International correspondent covering the Skakel trial.
This article is provided for educational purposes only as a public service by the Oakton Institute.
Why did you choose to work at the very place you were abused at? I don't understand this.
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Ursus no questions you just accept this statement at face value.
Danny
We don't get very far with you by asking direct questions, so we're left with what we see written here and other places.
Now, since you ignored all the questions about dragging a girl around behind a van originally, here's my post again.......
Yeah, I never got an answer about that either and it is an extremely valid question. You're always demanding to know the history and background of the people you're arguing with. So.......is it true Danny? Please explain the circumstances that led to this. I'm sure Who will be impressed with your reasoning and justification. After all, I'm sure she somehow brought it upon herself, right? Surely it was all in an effort to 'help' the poor girl, right? It was to keep her from hurting herself, right? Some sort of fantastic new "alternative" therapy, right?
Man up. It's a valid question.
**crickets chirping**
Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
-
Danny have you ever witnessed Marty fondel a teenage boy?
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny have you ever witnessed Marty fondel a teenage boy?
What is really sad about this comment there are young boys/men out there being abused every day,hour,min,second and here you are making a joke out of it. You who posts on a web site that advocates for abused kids, you who considers himself a alumni here.
Elan reporter I'm sorry dude that is uncalled for and across the line.
I have no idea about Marty's sexual transgressions nor would discuss it out in the public for obvious reasons.
Com'on dude lets show some talent here.
Danny
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny[/quote]
Then, why are you here?
You come here simply to evade questions?
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion. They want information. They want an apology. If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
Paul
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
Because I was a resident for almost 2 years.
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims
.
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either. Your not owed anything.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
They want information.
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits. I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
Danny[/quote]
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
Because I was a resident for almost 2 years.
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims
.
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either. Your not owed anything.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
They want information.
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits. I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
Danny
[/quote]
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a
former employer.
Yes I was..... Thank You[/size]
As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
Danny
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a
former employer.
Yes I was..... Thank You[/size]
As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
Danny
:jawdrop: Danny admitting he was a former ELAN EMPLOYER.
-
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
How is it disingenuous? Honestly? It's a valid question, especially given your propensity to demand to know others' histories. Your continued refusal to do so is very telling indeed.
-
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
It's left-over from his staff days. That's exactly their attitude towards the kids and pretty much everyone who dares question them or their methods.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't.
:cheers: :cheers: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
They are not interested in your self-promotion. They want information. They want an apology. If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Think about it mystery-man.
Paul
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
-
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
It's left-over from his staff days. That's exactly their attitude towards the kids and pretty much everyone who dares question them or their methods.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't.
:cheers: :cheers: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
They are not interested in your self-promotion. They want information. They want an apology. If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Think about it mystery-man.
Paul
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Anne why is all this necessary for you to do. I have never done anything to you. Just because I will not answer a question you put forth that I have answered so many times before. Yes, I consider your question disingenuous at the very least, outright disgusting at the most. As I have said I cared a great deal for this person you are disrespecting and she has been deceased for some time. If you had any respect for survivors as you say you do you will drop this stupid charade and let her memories lye in peace.
With all the sincerity I can muster,
Thank you
Danny
Danny
-
Anne why is all this necessary for you to do. I have never done anything to you.
I'm not doing anything to you. I'm asking a simple question about your background, as you have of many others here. Why do you run from the question?
Just because I will not answer a question you put forth that I have answered so many times before.
I have honestly never seen an answer to this question. If you have, then please direct me to the link and I'll read it myself. The only time you've ever addressed the question that I've seen is where you do a "non denial denial" or just dance around the issue, never really answering.
Yes, I consider your question disingenuous at the very least, outright disgusting at the most.
Why? Especially when you demand to know others' histories?
As I have said I cared a great deal for this person you are disrespecting and she has been deceased for some time.
How am I disrespecting her?
If you had any respect for survivors as you say you do you will drop this stupid charade and let her memories lye in peace.
With all the sincerity I can muster,
Thank you
Danny
Danny
Is it a charade? Did you not do this? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. If it's a charade, then tell us it is and tell us what really happened.
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
Because I was a resident for almost 2 years.
That is not a reason. I asked why you were here. If you feel that there is such an abundance of former Elan residents, who are actually worthy of your attention, and the people here aren't, then why do you consistently post here?
There is no law that say that everyone who has been in Elan for certain amount of time, has to take up space in Fornits, and the reason I say take up space, is because nothing much seems to come out of you... as far as I ve seen anyone.. It seems like you just like to disagree with people.. That is my perception. ( Just figured I d say that b4 you point it out to me.)
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Well, maybe you are just percieving the questions to be disengenuine... That doesn t mean that it is necessarily reality.. C'mon, man.. get with the program.. I thought you knew these things.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims
.
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either.
I'll make a note of that, dick.
Your not owed anything.
Indeed, I am not.
However, what I meant was.. If I were you, I d be willingly answer questions, now. Because the tables are gonna turn someday...
and I would guess that it is probably gonna be in your lifetime.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
No.. Not really my perception. More of a curiosity. I was just wondering.
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
and here I am, trying to be nice in my post.. and respect the new fornits rules ( I know.. I did just call you a dick, but you started..LOL)
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
I would like to respond to this statement, but I have no clue what you are talking about.
1. Who says, I can t kick ya around? Maybe I'm just not trying to.
2. If I couldn t kick you around, why would that be so amazing?
3. What latent have I have stored in my head for all these years. Are you saying that I think I have information about you, personally? Are you saying that the infromation I have about Elan is false?
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
Shitty Boy. That's a good one. Maybe you are right.. Maybe I should just back off. Perhaps, I am nothing more then a shitty boy..
Again, I ve been trying to avoid the whole personal attack thing.. But it's cool.. See, most of what I want to know about ya, I am learning right now, and you are losing your cool a bit, Daniel .
They want information.
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
Well, I am a shitty boy, and shitty boys need to keep their holes dirty.. Kinda comes with territory.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
Honestly, I think that means something.. I should probably let ya know, that I never went there, so you do not need to apologise to me, but i do think it means something that you said that.
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits.
Again, this is why I am asking you why you are here. You talk so bad about this "place" but ya keep coming around.
I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
Hence, mystery-man ;)
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
I read a few.. Just a few..
Danny
[/quote]
Somebody left their shamrock at home....
:shamrock:
There we go!
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
That is not a reason. I asked why you were here. If you feel that there is such an abundance of former Elan residents, who are actually worthy of your attention, and the people here aren't, then why do you consistently post here?
Because I can and with that right I converse with who I want to.
There is no law that say that everyone who has been in Elan for certain amount of time, has to take up space in Fornits, and the reason I say take up space, is because nothing much seems to come out of you
Really and here I thought I was contributing to fornits archives.
... as far as I ve seen anyone..
It seems like you just like to disagree with people.. That is my perception.
There you go with that perception thing again, please put it away before you get injured or something.
( Just figured I d say that b4 you point it out to me.)
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Well, maybe you are just percieving the questions to be disengenuine... That doesn t mean that it is necessarily reality.. C'mon, man.. get with the program.. I thought you knew these things.
Very witty aren't you, I bet your very charming also.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims
.
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either.
I'll make a note of that, dick.
Not very polite, please refrain from commenting on my anatomy.
Your not owed anything.
Indeed, I am not.
However, what I meant was.. If I were you, I d be willingly answer questions, now. Because the tables are gonna turn someday...
and I would guess that it is probably gonna be in your lifetime.
Well the tables are always turning son, so get used to it. It is called "change" the only inevitable in life. I told you already your questions as your motives are disingenuous. I answer questions all the time with folks from Elan and elsewhere just not on this site. Nobody here yet has earned my trust.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
No.. Not really my perception. More of a curiosity. I was just wondering.
Well stop it doesn't help your overall mentality. Really now.....lol.
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
and here I am, trying to be nice in my post.. and respect the new fornits rules ( I know.. I did just call you a dick, but you started..LOL)
STFU....again, PLEASE.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
I would like to respond to this statement, but I have no clue what you are talking about.
1. Who says, I can t kick ya around? Maybe I'm just not trying to.
2. If I couldn t kick you around, why would that be so amazing?
3. What latent have I have stored in my head for all these years. Are you saying that I think I have information about you, personally? Are you saying that the infromation I have about Elan is false?
STFU #3 times over now.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
Shitty Boy. That's a good one. Maybe you are right.. Maybe I should just back off. Perhaps, I am nothing more then a shitty boy..
Thank you for understanding.
Again, I ve been trying to avoid the whole personal attack thing.. But it's cool.. See, most of what I want to know about ya, I am learning right now, and you are losing your cool a bit, Daniel .
Wow!!!! are you now learning about perception. Your growing up before my eyes.
They want information.
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
Well, I am a shitty boy, and shitty boys need to keep their holes dirty.. Kinda comes with territory.
Ya it does......you smell.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
Honestly, I think that means something.. I should probably let ya know, that I never went there, so you do not need to apologise to me, but i do think it means something that you said that.
Oh I gon'na cry....
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits.
Again, this is why I am asking you why you are here. You talk so bad about this "place" but ya keep coming around.
No again you have a hard time understanding, I like fornits it is the Elanians here I don't trust.
I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
Well that is your journey here I would assume.
Hence, mystery-man ;)
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
I read a few.. Just a few..
Danny
[/quote]
Somebody left their shamrock at home....
:shamrock:
There we go!
Bye Bye
OLe` danny boy the pipes the pipes are calling...............oboyo.
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
That is not a reason. I asked why you were here. If you feel that there is such an abundance of former Elan residents, who are actually worthy of your attention, and the people here aren't, then why do you consistently post here?
Because I can and with that right I converse with who I want to.
There is no law that say that everyone who has been in Elan for certain amount of time, has to take up space in Fornits, and the reason I say take up space, is because nothing much seems to come out of you
Really and here I thought I was contributing to fornits archives.
... as far as I ve seen anyone..
It seems like you just like to disagree with people.. That is my perception.
There you go with that perception thing again, please put it away before you get injured or something.
( Just figured I d say that b4 you point it out to me.)
Ha, ha.... ha, ha...ha, ha..
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Right. So any question from a pissed off person is a false question? They're trying to trick and deceive you Danny? Is that your claim? They are fakes? Perhaps, they are really not mad about what happened to him? This is all just a big act on their part?
Well, maybe you are just percieving the questions to be disengenuine... That doesn t mean that it is necessarily reality.. C'mon, man.. get with the program.. I thought you knew these things.
Very witty aren't you, I bet your very charming also.
Well, I'll sleep well, tonight, knowing that I have your endorsement, Danny.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims[/quote].
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either.
I'll make a note of that, dick.
Not very polite, please refrain from commenting on my anatomy.
Please, re-read my comment. I called you a dick... not a twat.
Your not owed anything.
Indeed, I am not.
However, what I meant was.. If I were you, I d be willingly answer questions, now. Because the tables are gonna turn someday...
and I would guess that it is probably gonna be in your lifetime.
Well the tables are always turning son, so get used to it. It is called "change" the only inevitable in life.
You're kidding me, right?
I told you already your questions as your motives are disingenuous. I answer questions all the time with folks from Elan and elsewhere just not on this site. Nobody here yet has earned my trust.
You're smug. You are very smug. Innocent teenagers were terrorized and border-line tortured without purpose or reason. It was done as sport, and if you were there, you know that. Society will not turn a blind eye to this forever. When the tables have turned, and they will, will you still be so smug?
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
No.. Not really my perception. More of a curiosity. I was just wondering.
Well stop it doesn't help your overall mentality. Really now.....lol.
What are you trying to tell me, Danny? That I am stupid?
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
and here I am, trying to be nice in my post.. and respect the new fornits rules ( I know.. I did just call you a dick, but you started..LOL)
STFU....again, PLEASE.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
I would like to respond to this statement, but I have no clue what you are talking about.
1. Who says, I can t kick ya around? Maybe I'm just not trying to.
2. If I couldn t kick you around, why would that be so amazing?
3. What latent have I have stored in my head for all these years. Are you saying that I think I have information about you, personally? Are you saying that the infromation I have about Elan is false?
STFU #3 times over now.
You don't actually like to answer anything, do you? Well, I guess it is easier to tell people to shut up.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
Shitty Boy. That's a good one. Maybe you are right.. Maybe I should just back off. Perhaps, I am nothing more then a shitty boy..
Thank you for understanding.
Again, I ve been trying to avoid the whole personal attack thing.. But it's cool.. See, most of what I want to know about ya, I am learning right now, and you are losing your cool a bit, Daniel .
Wow!!!! are you now learning about perception. Your growing up before my eyes.
I got more intelligence in my pinky, then you got in your entire being, so do me a favor and stop acting so condescending.
They want information.[/quote]
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
Well, I am a shitty boy, and shitty boys need to keep their holes dirty.. Kinda comes with territory.
Ya it does......you smell.
You're a bonafide idiot.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
Honestly, I think that means something.. I should probably let ya know, that I never went there, so you do not need to apologise to me, but i do think it means something that you said that.
Oh I gon'na cry....
Okay, so first say you apologize, and then you come back with this. You fraudulent fuck. You ain't got an oz. of legitimate remorse in you. You're just a cruel dickhead, who will only talk to people who still understand that you are the counselor.
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits.
Again, this is why I am asking you why you are here. You talk so bad about this "place" but ya keep coming around.
No again you have a hard time understanding, I like fornits it is the Elanians here I don't trust.
Dumbass! Doesn t it make a little more sense that you should be earning their trust?
I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
Well that is your journey here I would assume.
I didn't write that. You did. But, I suppose you do know a thing or two about perceptions.
Hence, mystery-man ;)
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
I read a few.. Just a few..
Danny[/quote][/quote]
Somebody left their shamrock at home....
:shamrock:
There we go!
Bye Bye
OLe` danny boy the pipes the pipes are calling...............oboyo.
I'm glad you are having such a good time, Danny.
Paul St. John
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Then, why are you here?
That is not a reason. I asked why you were here. If you feel that there is such an abundance of former Elan residents, who are actually worthy of your attention, and the people here aren't, then why do you consistently post here?
Because I can and with that right I converse with who I want to.
There is no law that say that everyone who has been in Elan for certain amount of time, has to take up space in Fornits, and the reason I say take up space, is because nothing much seems to come out of you
Really and here I thought I was contributing to fornits archives.
... as far as I ve seen anyone..
It seems like you just like to disagree with people.. That is my perception.
There you go with that perception thing again, please put it away before you get injured or something.
( Just figured I d say that b4 you point it out to me.)
Ha, ha.... ha, ha...ha, ha..
You come here simply to evade questions?
Only the disingenuous ones.
Right. So any question from a pissed off person is a false question?
[/color]
Not exactly I would not put it that way. I do not believe they are pissed off, most here from Elan who post I have answered there questions. Now they are just playing out a latent hostility that I can not cure with more answers.
They're trying to trick and deceive you Danny? Is that your claim?
No I don't think that, I just think they are being disingenuous.
They are fakes?
No!!!!! But you are......
Perhaps, they are really not mad about what happened to him? This is all just a big act on their part? [/color]
Now why would you say that about them, there goes that perception again....lol.
Well, maybe you are just percieving the questions to be disengenuine... That doesn t mean that it is necessarily reality.. C'mon, man.. get with the program.. I thought you knew these things.
Very witty aren't you, I bet your very charming also.
Well, I'll sleep well, tonight, knowing that I have your endorsement, Danny.
Try not to be cute, OK.
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims
.
No you are not the only victims, your arrogance does not appeal to me either.
I'll make a note of that, dick.
Not very polite, please refrain from commenting on my anatomy.
Please, re-read my comment. I called you a dick... not a twat.
I asked you not to be cute....shitty boy.
Your not owed anything.
Indeed, I am not.
However, what I meant was.. If I were you, I d be willingly answer questions, now. Because the tables are gonna turn someday...
and I would guess that it is probably gonna be in your lifetime.
Well the tables are always turning son, so get used to it. It is called "change" the only inevitable in life.
You're kidding me, right?
No I would not try to manipulate you.
I told you already your questions as your motives are disingenuous. I answer questions all the time with folks from Elan and elsewhere just not on this site. Nobody here yet has earned my trust.
[color=#FFBF00] You're smug. You are very smug.
No I would not call it smug.
Innocent teenagers were terrorized and border-line tortured without purpose or reason.
Stop with all the drama this is where you start to smell of disingenuous.
It was done as sport, and if you were there, you know that.
No I do not know that and (you absolutely don't know). You have no idea of what your talking of, this conversation
is starting to smell like you "shitty boy".
Society will not turn a blind eye to this forever.
Who is saying "Society" is turning a blind eye, you. Society also has a "perception".
When the tables have turned, and they will, will you still be so smug?
Well since I wasn't smug before, NO. I told you young one tables have always been turning, nothing stays the same.
Remember perception.
[/color]
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
I did not think that was my reality. But your entitled to your perceptions.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Like I said that is your perception it does not make it a reality. I am here because I am a survivor and a former employer. As far as affecting me well I am sorry it is not happening they way you want it.
No.. Not really my perception. More of a curiosity. I was just wondering.
Well stop it doesn't help your overall mentality. Really now.....lol.
What are you trying to tell me, Danny? That I am stupid?
Well if the shoe fits......
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
STFU...please.
and here I am, trying to be nice in my post.. and respect the new fornits rules ( I know.. I did just call you a dick, but you started..LOL)
STFU....again, PLEASE.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Isn't that amazing that you don't get to kick me around based on some false information you have had stored up in your head (it is called latent) for all these years.
I would like to respond to this statement, but I have no clue what you are talking about.
1. Who says, I can t kick ya around? Maybe I'm just not trying to.
2. If I couldn t kick you around, why would that be so amazing?
3. What latent have I have stored in my head for all these years. Are you saying that I think I have information about you, personally? Are you saying that the infromation I have about Elan is false?
STFU #3 times over now.
You don't actually like to answer anything, do you? Well, I guess it is easier to tell people to shut up.
Yes I do like to answer alot of questions, I am doing it now with you. More then I give most folks here. I don't tell "people" to shut up just "shitty boys".
[/color]
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion.
Well I don't know what to say other then "Too Bad", shitty boy.
Shitty Boy. That's a good one. Maybe you are right.. Maybe I should just back off. Perhaps, I am nothing more then a shitty boy..
Thank you for understanding.
Again, I ve been trying to avoid the whole personal attack thing.. But it's cool.. See, most of what I want to know about ya, I am learning right now, and you are losing your cool a bit, Daniel .
Wow!!!! are you now learning about perception. Your growing up before my eyes.
I got more intelligence in my pinky, then you got in your entire being,
I said I do not want to talk about anatomy. "My Being" is my spirit and my spirit is huge, finite. Your ego is large try to be humble.
so do me a favor and stop acting so condescending.
[/color]
I would like to do you favors but it is not condescending that your seeing it is someone older then you.
They want information.[/quote]
They, who is "they" ???????? You don't want information as in cleansing to the soul, you want dirt for your angry hole.
Well, I am a shitty boy, and shitty boys need to keep their holes dirty.. Kinda comes with territory.
Ya it does......you smell.
You're a bonafide idiot.
Com'on be fair and don't stoop to attacking, shitty boy.
They want an apology.
You got it, you have always had it.
Honestly, I think that means something.. I should probably let ya know, that I never went there, so you do not need to apologise to me, but i do think it means something that you said that.
Oh I gon'na cry....
Okay, so first say you apologize, and then you come back with this.
I thought your comment above was a facetious. I apologize.
You fraudulent fuck.
No have never been that.[/color]
You ain't got an oz. of legitimate remorse in you. You're just a cruel dickhead,
Well I am sorry this is all you see, because there is so much more. Don't you get vicious when your
little ole feeling are hurt. That is why I call you "shitty boy" because it doesn't take much to bring
this out.
who will only talk to people who still understand that you are the counselor.[/color]
Now this is just silly.
If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
Son grow up please there is no vindication anywhere here on fornits.
Again, this is why I am asking you why you are here. You talk so bad about this "place" but ya keep coming around.
No again you have a hard time understanding, I like fornits it is the Elanians here I don't trust.
Dumbass! Doesn t it make a little more sense that you should be earning their trust?
No, why in heck would I want to earn trust from folks that I don't trust at all and "WHY AM I TALKING WITH YOU".
This is it, till next time.
I am already there have been there for almost 30 years.
My purpose here as I always said is a personal one that few know.
Well that is your journey here I would assume.
I didn't write that. You did. But, I suppose you do know a thing or two about perceptions.
Hence, mystery-man ;)
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
I am a very decent man, Thanks. No mystery,if you had read my posts as you said you did, I wonder though.
Paul
I read a few.. Just a few..
Danny[/quote][/quote]
Somebody left their shamrock at home....
:shamrock:
There we go!
Bye Bye
OLe` danny boy the pipes the pipes are calling...............oboyo.
I'm glad you are having such a good time, Danny.
ALWAYS.............
Paul St. John[/color][/quote]
P.S.
Paul if you want to have a real sincere conversation with me then PM me and I will talk.
Danny
-
I don’t know if this discussion is going anywhere … other than the same coy little bread crumb chase from thread to thread that’s gone on for months. For now, you guys all seem to enjoy having it so..fare thee well.
The smilies and tangled misuse of the quote feature make most of the exchanges barely legible. I’m bothered that I bothered to squint my way through it only to find little more than more of the same.
No matter how much resizing and highlighting is used it doesn’t make the ^ content informative.
And Quit NAMECALLING other posters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or take your :shamrock: etc. to the drama box
-
Me:Innocent teenagers were terrorized and border-line tortured without purpose or reason.
You:Stop with all the drama this is where you start to smell of disingenuous.
I think this is where you and me differ. I don't think I am being dramatic- not even a little. I am stating facts. What I wrote above is true.
I mean the actual experience that people went through, was dramatic, and yes, absolutely, definitely, also, traumatic. If a realistic movie were to be made about it, I think it would be classified as a drama, and possibly even horror. ( and I don't think that I am exxagerating there.If you do, perhaps, you should remind yourself)
Okay, now what I wrote there is very clear. If you think I am wrong, you can tell me why, but if you have to come back, with something witty, or funny, or evasive, then you are really not worth talking to.
Me: It was done as sport, and if you were there, you know that.
You: No I do not know that and (you absolutely don't know). You have no idea of what your talking of, this conversation
is starting to smell like you "shitty boy".
I do know it, Danny. I know that it was done as sport. I am certain of it.
Well, that s about it for me.. As is often the case, I am not even sure how I got into this conversation. I can argue with you 'til I am blue in the face, but even if I win, what have I won? particularly when this has become little more then a childish battle of the wits, and we keep moving forward into new territory, without even finishing what we were originally talking about.
You think that my feelings were coming out of me.. There we go with the perception thing again. (no pun intended) Actually I was very complacent, when responding to you.. and it actually required effort to respond the way I did. I really don't care if you think I am a shitty boy..
or if you tell me that I smell..
and honestly, I am not even sure what think of ya. I know that you are a bit of a bullshit artist, but most people are, particularly in certain circumstances, so what business is that of mine, really?
I'm not sure that I would classify you as a bad guy. And even if you were, I am not the Fornits police.
All, I know is that you rubbed me the wrong way, personally, but that happens in life.
I learned about Elan inadvertantly.. It became something that concerned me, inadverently. In the end, all I really want.. All I really care about, is that the truth come out in full color, and that the place no longer exist. I want society, to fully take the side of the victims.
That's my hope.. To what extent, I want to have anything to do with that coming about, I am not sure. All I know is, I always find myself coming back to this forum, just like out of nowhere.
I also know, that I do, in fact, like the idea of battling and exposing a counselor.
Paul St. John
-
I don’t know if this discussion is going anywhere … other than the same coy little bread crumb chase from thread to thread that’s gone on for months. For now, you guys all seem to enjoy having it so..fare thee well.
The smilies and tangled misuse of the quote feature make most of the exchanges barely legible. I’m bothered that I bothered to squint my way through it only to find little more than more of the same.
No matter how much resizing and highlighting is used it doesn’t make the ^ content informative.
And Quit NAMECALLING other posters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or take your :shamrock: etc. to the drama box
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Inculcate we have been here before, mind your own business. OK. Don't read it.
Danny
-
No matter how much resizing and highlighting is used it doesn’t make the ^ content informative.
And Quit NAMECALLING other posters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or take your :shamrock: etc. to the drama box
No, it does not.. It is only an attempts on our parts to make clear who is writing what..
Anyway.. It's true nothing much of purpose came out of it. At best, it may have entertaining exchange to some.. But if you're looking for entertainment, that is what the Elan Reporter is for,
I would like to say that his posts, completely hurt both Fornits, and the cause of exposing Elan, because who people who find that, when researching, simply can t take any of it seriously. It is crude, and makes the victims, look like they might be the wrong ones.. Just a bunch of childish people complaining about having to grow up> Of course that is not the case. I am onl;y saying that it can appear this way.
Anyway, as much as I would like to say all that, I cant. Because I think, while some of the humor is just too childish, most of it is fucking hysterical. I actually get a kick out of reading it. Also, it's got a lot of truth and intelligence mingled throughout, and is extremely creative.
But clearly, there needs to be some real content here, and mine and danny's conversation, is not that.
Paul St. John
-
I don’t know if this discussion is going anywhere … other than the same coy little bread crumb chase from thread to thread that’s gone on for months. For now, you guys all seem to enjoy having it so..fare thee well.
The smilies and tangled misuse of the quote feature make most of the exchanges barely legible. I’m bothered that I bothered to squint my way through it only to find little more than more of the same.
No matter how much resizing and highlighting is used it doesn’t make the ^ content informative.
And Quit NAMECALLING other posters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or take your :shamrock: etc. to the drama box
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Inculcate we have been here before, mind your own business. OK. Don't read it.
Danny
I would have to agree with you, Danny..
...except that she is the moderator of this section of Fornits.. I can think of few others where you would not be banned, for this kinda shit.
As matter of a fact, I also saw that you told Ginger to mind her own business.( this is one of the things that I did not like) This is her site. I don't know where you think you get off. Most site owners would not even tolerate that shit.
Well, perceptions are perceptions.. I admit, but it really does seem, like you think you have athority over these people.
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Me:Innocent teenagers were terrorized and border-line tortured without purpose or reason.
You:Stop with all the drama this is where you start to smell of disingenuous.
I think this is where you and me differ. I don't think I am being dramatic- not even a little. I am stating facts. What I wrote above is true.
I mean the actual experience that people went through, was dramatic, and yes, absolutely, definitely, also, traumatic. If a realistic movie were to be made about it, I think it would be classified as a drama, and possibly even horror. ( and I don't think that I am exxagerating there.If you do, perhaps, you should remind yourself)
You told me you never went to Elan yet your interrogating like you went there, Ok I accepted that. Then you started the name calling with the "dick' comment (and your little Miss Muffin Inculcate came to your defense), I came back with my comments.
Okay, now what I wrote there is very clear. If you think I am wrong, you can tell me why, but if you have to come back, with something witty, or funny, or evasive, then you are really not worth talking to.
Nothing to come back with, you said it very well.
Me: It was done as sport, and if you were there, you know that.
You: No I do not know that and (you absolutely don't know). You have no idea of what your talking of, this conversation
is starting to smell like you "shitty boy".
I do know it, Danny. I know that it was done as sport. I am certain of it.
Well look who has been mysterious, what TC/program were you with or where is your experience coming from. Time to pony up my boy, name, rank and serial #.
Well, that s about it for me.. As is often the case, I am not even sure how I got into this conversation. I can argue with you 'til I am blue in the face, but even if I win, what have I won? particularly when this has become little more then a childish battle of the wits, and we keep moving forward into new territory, without even finishing what we were originally talking about.
I would hope that you take some responsibility for that, now lets get down to business.
You think that my feelings were coming out of me.. There we go with the perception thing again. (no pun intended) Actually I was very complacent, when responding to you.. and it actually required effort to respond the way I did. I really don't care if you think I am a shitty boy.. or if you tell me that I smell..
That was nothing more then a antagonistic ploy on my part because I felt you were messing around. You never explained anything about yourself yet you wanted answers from me. Who are you????? Introduction would have been nice.
and honestly, I am not even sure what think of ya. I know that you are a bit of a bullshit artist, but most people are, particularly in certain circumstances, so what business is that of mine, really?
Don't analyze me please I have a friend that does that, No John I don't bullshit at all (there goes your perception again).
I'm not sure that I would classify you as a bad guy. And even if you were, I am not the Fornits police.
Thank You
.All, I know is that you rubbed me the wrong way, personally, but that happens in life
.
As soon as you can stop being self-centered maybe you can see how this whole relationship started, you came barging into my life here with all kinds of questions and accusations without even a "HI", That rubs me the wrong way.
I learned about Elan inadvertantly.. It became something that concerned me, inadverently. In the end, all I really want.. All I really care about, is that the truth come out in full color, and that the place no longer exist. I want society, to fully take the side of the victims.
Well stop inadvertently stepping all over people from Elan you don't like. Just because I was a staff member doesn't mean I was a counselor, I was far from that. I started being staff at 17yrs old and finished at 19yrs old. That should give you a picture of my career as staff. I am 51 now.
That's my hope.. To what extent, I want to have anything to do with that coming about, I am not sure. All I know is, I always find myself coming back to this forum, just like out of nowhere.
Well lets start over and continue this conversation on a more adventurous/educational script. I do need to talk about my experiences with Elan but I have not found anyone here that will talk responsibly. So lets do it.
I also know, that I do, in fact, like the idea of battling and exposing a counselor.
Now that will get the door shut in your face quickly, I don't mind being exposed have been now for 9 mons. here. If you want to talk all I ask is be responsible and respectful this is a very vulnerable conversation. Can you handle it because I am only offering it to you and you only.
Paul St. John
Danny
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
I don’t know if this discussion is going anywhere … other than the same coy little bread crumb chase from thread to thread that’s gone on for months. For now, you guys all seem to enjoy having it so..fare thee well.
The smilies and tangled misuse of the quote feature make most of the exchanges barely legible. I’m bothered that I bothered to squint my way through it only to find little more than more of the same.
No matter how much resizing and highlighting is used it doesn’t make the ^ content informative.
And Quit NAMECALLING other posters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or take your :shamrock: etc. to the drama box
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Inculcate we have been here before, mind your own business. OK. Don't read it.
Danny
I would have to agree with you, Danny..
...except that she is the moderator of this section of Fornits.. I can think of few others where you would not be banned, for this kinda shit.
As matter of a fact, I also saw that you told Ginger to mind her own business.( this is one of the things that I did not like) This is her site. I don't know where you think you get off. Most site owners would not even tolerate that shit.
Well, perceptions are perceptions.. I admit, but it really does seem, like you think you have athority over these people.
No she is not, she is filling in. Because nobody else (from Elan) would step up and fornits just had to have a forum called Elan. The only time Inculcate says or does anything concerning Elan is when she doesn't like what I am doing or saying. She is so obvious with her prejudice.
As far as Ginger or anyone else is concerned I will rebut in my way. To your thought of me having authority na, just speak my mind with authority. I don't have any power here unless it is given and that I am sure will never happen...lol.
Danny
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well look who has been mysterious, what TC/program were you with or where is your experience coming from. Time to pony up my boy, name, rank and serial #.
I figured you would run away John St. Paul. No balls...No Glory my friend.
Oh.. ya figured huh? My life requires that I spend the majority of my time away from my computer screen.
.. like most people's
This is what I deal with on a continuances bases, folks confront me for no apparent reason then disappear.
Well, either the wolrd is out to get ya, or it is something that you are doing.
Well toodles.
I'm not feeling very well, Danny. I have a fever, and I am tired.. Perhaps, we could pick this up another time. I am not even sure what much I have to contribute, but perhaps after some sleep.
As you pointed out, I barged into your life.. Perhaps, that was a knee-jerk reaction.. I had read a few of your posts, and more and more began to dislike you..
But I honestly don t know what to make of you, and I don t care. I still say that you are smug..lol.. I don t care what you say ... That is my opinion.
I'm not too sure about much else, and I really don t care. I use to speak to a girl who attended Elan.. She is probably right around your age.. She too, became staff for a very short time, while very young, and I know that she is a good person, so I cannot condemn you on that basis.. I also can t argue the merits of Elan with you, because you don t defend it.. You seem to be on the same page as everyone here, in regards that it sucks..
And, though I know her and like her, Inculcated is clearly biased.. She does not like you.. What I don t know is whether or not it is justified, but I also don t feel like finding out right now.. so perhaps another
I think you said you will deal with Ginger as you see fit ( I know it wasn t that exactly, but it was something to that effect..
Well, I also do want I want to do.
I consider her a friend, not to mentuion that she makes it possible for you, me, and everybody else to post here, and I think you should show her a little more respect in her own property. Yes, you can do what you want.. if she is going to allow it,
but so can I!
Umm.. Before, I go.. real quick ( lol.. this eats up so much time) I just address the mystery man- thing.. I went to Daytop.. I witnessed these people on a daily basis. I have read here and elsewhere, post after post about Elan, and I have spoken with one woman on the phone, who immersed me in years of torturous details.
I understand these people.. I understand how they work. They enjoy it.. It is done for sport. There was no ring at Daytop. It was not violent at all, but I have seen things like, they ll have a guy stand up with insecurity- issues, and the attractive girls there would scream at him how repulsive he is, and things of that sort..
and of the course, the person would cry.. The particular person, taht i am talking about has never been the same again, from that day in his life.. and no it's not me.. but he's been living in self-made delusions ever since.
But what I mostly remember was how much the staff enjoyed it.. They should have stopped it, but they liked it, because they feed on unhappiness, and pain, and misery..
They temporarily inflate their hollow egos, by crushing others, in the name of a cause.
I ve heard the stories, and I know that the Elan counselors are of the same breed as the Daytop counselors.. Except they are a lot worse. I know these people.. I looked into them.. I know what I saw.. they could not trick me.. and they knew it.
Paul
Danny
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Well look who has been mysterious, what TC/program were you with or where is your experience coming from. Time to pony up my boy, name, rank and serial #.
I figured you would run away John St. Paul. No balls...No Glory my friend.
Oh.. ya figured huh? My life requires that I spend the majority of my time away from my computer screen.
.. like most people's
This is true I really do understand this.
This is what I deal with on a continuances bases, folks confront me for no apparent reason then disappear.
Well, either the wolrd is out to get ya, or it is something that you are doing.
Now honestly there is a good point, I do bring some of the flac my way.
Well toodles.
I'm not feeling very well, Danny. I have a fever, and I am tired.. Perhaps, we could pick this up another time. I am not even sure what much I have to contribute, but perhaps after some sleep.
Sorry to hear this.
As you pointed out, I barged into your life.. Perhaps, that was a knee-jerk reaction.. I had read a few of your posts, and more and more began to dislike you.
.
Why are you disliking me you don't even know me nor know my history on fornits. What you call smug I wish to call defensive mechanism, keeping undesirables at bay.
But I honestly don t know what to make of you, and I don t care. I still say that you are smug..lol.. I don t care what you say ... That is my opinion.
You don't care, now that is not nice, smug maybe a little. You have good opinions.
I'm not too sure about much else, and I really don t care. I use to speak to a girl who attended Elan.. She is probably right around your age.. She too, became staff for a very short time, while very young, and I know that she is a good person, so I cannot condemn you on that basis.. I also can t argue the merits of Elan with you, because you don t defend it.. You seem to be on the same page as everyone here, in regards that it sucks..
Ask the woman if she knows me Daniel L. Bennison.....it would help here. Elan was a nightmare for everyone concerned here. I am not proud at all of my affiliations with Elan. I can't change what happened.
And, though I know her and like her, Inculcated is clearly biased.. She does not like you.. What I don t know is whether or not it is justified, but I also don t feel like finding out right now.. so perhaps another
Oh I would think some of it is justified and some is not but at this point she just needs to get over it. She just carries it on and on. I am going to be who I am maybe you like maybe you don't but to continue to beat me over the head about it is not going to work.
I think you said you will deal with Ginger as you see fit ( I know it wasn t that exactly, but it was something to that effect..
I happen to have a lot of respect for Ginger, I get carried away but I try real hard not to push the envelope to far. Not because of banning but because it is wrong. I am new to this verbal debate arena so I am still learning. But I also have respect for Psy, Ursus , whooter, Pile, DJ, Felice, Anne, Inculcate....ect. I just don't agree on the same things more then not but I don't believe that means I should not be here. All the more reason for me to be here, why am I disagreeing with my peers. Is it all me or a consortium of different ideas with the group here.
Well, I also do want I want to do.
Well that OK, I guess.
I consider her a friend, not to mentuion that she makes it possible for you, me, and everybody else to post here, and I think you should show her a little more respect in her own property. Yes, you can do what you want.. if she is going to allow it,
but so can I
!
Yes she does and I don't think I take that for granted but I will take into consideration that my actions are displaying this possibly.
Umm.. Before, I go.. real quick ( lol.. this eats up so much time) I just address the mystery man- thing.. I went to Daytop.. I witnessed these people on a daily basis. I have read here and elsewhere, post after post about Elan, and I have spoken with one woman on the phone, who immersed me in years of torturous details.
I went to Daytop when I was 12 almost 13 yrs. in NYC. I was there for a few months, maybe the youngest they had ever had up to that point. It was very surreal looking back on it.
As I said Joe turned Elan into his personal nightmare, he was a very sick man.
I understand these people.. I understand how they work. They enjoy it.. It is done for sport. There was no ring at Daytop. It was not violent at all, but I have seen things like, they ll have a guy stand up with insecurity- issues, and the attractive girls there would scream at him how repulsive he is, and things of that sort..
Yes some Staff and Directors did do this for sport and if they mentally fucked you enough you could possibly do it to other residents, I did as a resident and as staff. I just don't know if I did it as a sport because I really was not getting a big kick out of screaming at people or all the other abuses Elan had.
and of the course, the person would cry.. The particular person, taht i am talking about has never been the same again, from that day in his life.. and no it's not me.. but he's been living in self-made delusions ever since.
I also know some folks living that way myself Elan was a big part but his life before and after was a mess. Their family life sucked ect....
But what I mostly remember was how much the staff enjoyed it.. They should have stopped it, but they liked it, because they feed on unhappiness, and pain, and misery..
Not all staff enjoyed watching people go through pain we just felt helpless to stop it, like I had no balls. Is that a excuse, of course not but it is the truth. At that point in my life I I felt could not nor would not stand up for the residents. I was so overwhelmed by Elan I did not even think to get help, reach out to the authorities. I thought some of the behavioral methods they were using were wrong ei: Ring, spanking, cowboy ass kicking but other methods I thought helped. That is how fucked up I was.I just wanted out when I left and never wanted to speak of it again.
They temporarily inflate their hollow egos, by crushing others, in the name of a cause.
Yes breaking you down psychologically but not having a clue as to how to bring you back. Yes that is what is happening in most of the TC's. Staff that is uneducated (barley have H.S. diploma) and inexperienced educated staff being put in charge to run therapeutic systems, ie: group sessions, individual counseling, writing progress reports, writing psychological profiles ect.....
I ve heard the stories, and I know that the Elan counselors are of the same breed as the Daytop counselors.. Except they are a lot worse. I know these people.. I looked into them.. I know what I saw.. they could not trick me.. and they knew it.
Not all Paul, not all. Yes I will agree I don't think I have heard of another program like Elan from 1974 on things at Elan got sicker and sicker as Joe got sicker.
Paul[/b]
Danny
-
Hey What's up, Danny.. I got a feeling you have been waiting for me. Seems you ve been having some fun over here, since I left.. Like a solitary ship, in the ocean, being hit with missiles from all directions- all these considerred, you are holding your own quite well.. It would be hard not to respect that.
I gotta think that you really wanna talk about this shit too. I mean, you gotta be in a pretty lonely position with this shit. Former residents don t like ya much
.. and I gotta think Elan staff likes ya even less. You have no one to relate with.
As you pointed out, I barged into your life.. Perhaps, that was a knee-jerk reaction.. I had read a few of your posts, and more and more began to dislike you.
.
Why are you disliking me you don't even know me nor know my history on fornits.
I'm not so sure that I dislike you anymore. You are imperfect, like myself or anybody else, and you are in a weird position, which could cause you to act certain ways defensively. I understand that what you are doing is not easy.
You may think that I am psyco-analyzing you, but I am me, I am have to use the tools that I have to dsicerne reality, and so I will say that, some of your actions on your site, are inconsistant with what seems to be your core personality, and I think taht they are simply a result of insecurity, and defense. You do like yourself, in spite of problems with yourself, and you get ahead of yourself in trying to prove that.
What you call smug I wish to call defensive mechanism, keeping undesirables at bay.
I know, and when you say it, it does not seem bad, but if I had said it, it would have seemed like an attack. It makes sense though. You know that you did something that is wrong, and it is very hard and vulnerable experience, to come out with it, and of course, you do not want to come out with it, only to be attacked and made a fool of.
]
I'm not too sure about much else, and I really don t care. I use to speak to a girl who attended Elan.. She is probably right around your age.. She too, became staff for a very short time, while very young, and I know that she is a good person, so I cannot condemn you on that basis.. I also can t argue the merits of Elan with you, because you don t defend it.. You seem to be on the same page as everyone here, in regards that it sucks..
Ask the woman if she knows me Daniel L. Bennison.....it would help here. Elan was a nightmare for everyone concerned here. I am not proud at all of my affiliations with Elan. I can't change what happened.
I will. Perhaps, you 2 will even want to communicate.
I think you said you will deal with Ginger as you see fit ( I know it wasn t that exactly, but it was something to that effect..
I happen to have a lot of respect for Ginger, I get carried away but I try real hard not to push the envelope to far. Not because of banning but because it is wrong. I am new to this verbal debate arena so I am still learning. But I also have respect for Psy, Ursus , whooter, Pile, DJ, Felice, Anne, Inculcate....ect. I just don't agree on the same things more then not but I don't believe that means I should not be here. All the more reason for me to be here, why am I disagreeing with my peers. Is it all me or a consortium of different ideas with the group here.
Inculcate is cool.. Psy and Ursus seem cool.. I don t really know the other ones, but I am sure they are cool, too. This is something else.. this site.
I mean.. Just think about it.. It could just easily not exist, but it does. This is why I respect Ginger. She is the mother of all this.. None of it had to be, and Fornits is a force to be reckoned with.. Great vision involved here. IMHO
Yes she does and I don't think I take that for granted but I will take into consideration that my actions are displaying this possibly.
Hmm.... See, to me, at this point.. You don t seem to be a bad guy at all. I think ya got a bit of illegitimate bad rap, but I also think, as you say, you brought some of it upon yourself..
I'm a dick sometimes, too.....LOL :)
As I said Joe turned Elan into his personal nightmare, he was a very sick man. [/color]
He sounds like real sick Fuck. My understanding is that Elan was originally suppose to be a kinder, gentler Daytop, and that good ol' Joe Ricci was a daytop resident. Well, it seems something went wrong, somewhere. Very wrong.
I understand these people.. I understand how they work. They enjoy it.. It is done for sport. There was no ring at Daytop. It was not violent at all, but I have seen things like, they ll have a guy stand up with insecurity- issues, and the attractive girls there would scream at him how repulsive he is, and things of that sort..
Yes some Staff and Directors did do this for sport and if they mentally fucked you enough you could possibly do it to other residents, I did as a resident and as staff. I just don't know if I did it as a sport because I really was not getting a big kick out of screaming at people or all the other abuses Elan had.
I seen many staff, and status, do it for sport. I seen it.
I remember there was one staff-girl there when I first started. She was young.. maybe like 21. She was the only one there who wasn t formerly a resident. She was the only one there who seemed to me overall, like she was a normal person.. She was playing the Daytop game, but it was not in her heart, and I knew this. I think she was mostly a a young, maybe a bit naieve, career minded woman.
I'm not sure what exactly happened, but I know she quit at some point, and we were all banned from having any communications with her. I didn t mean shit to me, but some of the people had a very strong bond with her..
Every resident had their own like primary counselor. For the people who had her.. One day, she was like the most important authority in your life, and the next day, suddenly, she was an untouchable. One thing I do remember, is that a lot of the parents favored over other counselors, and that made them steaming mad, as he did have the training they did.. and blah.. blah.. and of course this was taken out on the parent's child- so damn unprofessional.
and of the course, the person would cry.. The particular person, taht i am talking about has never been the same again, from that day in his life.. and no it's not me.. but he's been living in self-made delusions ever since.
I also know some folks living that way myself Elan was a big part but his life before and after was a mess. Their family life sucked ect....
Yeah, but I ll tell ya danny, this guy may have had some problems... but for the most part, he was just another guy at daytop. Umm.. He wasn t one of the kids, who smoked a lil pot, and their parents bugged out and sent them there.. But he wasn t a heroine or a crack addict either.. he was like in the middle.
I'm tellin' ya.. he was just another residents.. I v met his parents too.. they seemed like good people.. He was well off too..
But that fucking day, changed this dude's life, and set him on a new path, that last I checked, he still has not gotten off of.. he's not a bad guy at all.. he's just a compulsive, who lives in a world of delusions. It all happenned that fucking day.. they changed that fucking dudes life forever.
Would the same thing have broken me? Absolutely not! So can people say.. " Oh, well he was weak!"
I guess so.. But still it wasn t fucking necessary. H was young and his mind was simply not strong enough to handle that humiliation. One thing was worse about Daytop, then Elan, is that in Elan, at least most people knew, they were in a crazy place.. In daytop, most people actually did believe in the shit.
But what I mostly remember was how much the staff enjoyed it.. They should have stopped it, but they liked it, because they feed on unhappiness, and pain, and misery..
Not all staff enjoyed watching people go through pain we just felt helpless to stop it, like I had no balls. Is that a excuse, of course not but it is the truth. At that point in my life I I felt could not nor would not stand up for the residents. I was so overwhelmed by Elan I did not even think to get help, reach out to the authorities. I thought some of the behavioral methods they were using were wrong ei: Ring, spanking, cowboy ass kicking but other methods I thought helped. That is how fucked up I was.I just wanted out when I left and never wanted to speak of it again.
I think that that is why that girl left. I understand . When you are immersed in a reality, it can almost seem that reality itself has turned upside-down.
The self can get lost in it all.
I would have to think that when it is tucked away in the woods, that can make it all the more encompassing.
They temporarily inflate their hollow egos, by crushing others, in the name of a cause.
Yes breaking you down psychologically but not having a clue as to how to bring you back. Yes that is what is happening in most of the TC's. Staff that is uneducated (barley have H.S. diploma) and inexperienced educated staff being put in charge to run therapeutic systems, ie: group sessions, individual counseling, writing progress reports, writing psychological profiles ect.....
But that's the thing Danny. they are not failing at what they are trying to do. Rather, it is impossible to do what they trying to do. You can not break down a person, and then build them up again! It is undo-able. It is a faulty theory, and it has never, ever worked a single time. I put my name on that.
Even if it did work, the ends do not justify the means.
" Well, I did go up to the random stranger, and cut the poor fuckers arm off with a chain saw, but it was only so I could give him this better robot-arm.
He should be thanking me. He's just a baby, because he failed to make good use of the better robot arm, and now he wants to blame on me, rather then just grow up. I mean .. Is he really still whining about the chain saw? that's "tough love" baby! I guess he just couldn t handle it.
and so I repeat:
Even if it did work, the ends do not justify the means.
Bit doesn t work.. It can t work.. It won t work. People are not designed to be broken down and rebuilt.
I ve heard the stories, and I know that the Elan counselors are of the same breed as the Daytop counselors.. Except they are a lot worse. I know these people.. I looked into them.. I know what I saw.. they could not trick me.. and they knew it.
Not all Paul, not all. Yes I will agree I don't think I have heard of another program like Elan from 1974 on things at Elan got sicker and sicker as Joe got sicker.
l[/b]
Yep.. very unique, indeed, this Elan school.. I think that you can be a valuable contributor.
I can say this right now.. Any Elan staff who have been following this shit, have their fingers crossed, that you remain at odds, with the other posters.
Paul St. John
Danny
[/quote]
-
Paul, marty krudick, ken taretzky. Did you forget about the fun times years ago?
-
What about the fucking ametures picture with manson that ginger phot shopped and we had fun with the pic?
-
Hey What's up, Danny.. I got a feeling you have been waiting for me. Seems you ve been having some fun over here, since I left.. Like a solitary ship, in the ocean, being hit with missiles from all directions- all these considerred, you are holding your own quite well.. It would be hard not to respect that.
I gotta think that you really wanna talk about this shit too. I mean, you gotta be in a pretty lonely position with this shit. Former residents don t like ya much
.. and I gotta think Elan staff likes ya even less. You have no one to relate with.
As you pointed out, I barged into your life.. Perhaps, that was a knee-jerk reaction.. I had read a few of your posts, and more and more began to dislike you.
.
Why are you disliking me you don't even know me nor know my history on fornits.
I'm not so sure that I dislike you anymore. You are imperfect, like myself or anybody else, and you are in a weird position, which could cause you to act certain ways defensively. I understand that what you are doing is not easy.
You may think that I am psyco-analyzing you, but I am me, I am have to use the tools that I have to dsicerne reality, and so I will say that, some of your actions on your site, are inconsistant with what seems to be your core personality, and I think taht they are simply a result of insecurity, and defense. You do like yourself, in spite of problems with yourself, and you get ahead of yourself in trying to prove that.
What you call smug I wish to call defensive mechanism, keeping undesirables at bay.
I know, and when you say it, it does not seem bad, but if I had said it, it would have seemed like an attack. It makes sense though. You know that you did something that is wrong, and it is very hard and vulnerable experience, to come out with it, and of course, you do not want to come out with it, only to be attacked and made a fool of.
]
I'm not too sure about much else, and I really don t care. I use to speak to a girl who attended Elan.. She is probably right around your age.. She too, became staff for a very short time, while very young, and I know that she is a good person, so I cannot condemn you on that basis.. I also can t argue the merits of Elan with you, because you don t defend it.. You seem to be on the same page as everyone here, in regards that it sucks..
Ask the woman if she knows me Daniel L. Bennison.....it would help here. Elan was a nightmare for everyone concerned here. I am not proud at all of my affiliations with Elan. I can't change what happened.
I will. Perhaps, you 2 will even want to communicate.
I think you said you will deal with Ginger as you see fit ( I know it wasn t that exactly, but it was something to that effect..
I happen to have a lot of respect for Ginger, I get carried away but I try real hard not to push the envelope to far. Not because of banning but because it is wrong. I am new to this verbal debate arena so I am still learning. But I also have respect for Psy, Ursus , whooter, Pile, DJ, Felice, Anne, Inculcate....ect. I just don't agree on the same things more then not but I don't believe that means I should not be here. All the more reason for me to be here, why am I disagreeing with my peers. Is it all me or a consortium of different ideas with the group here.
Inculcate is cool.. Psy and Ursus seem cool.. I don t really know the other ones, but I am sure they are cool, too. This is something else.. this site.
I mean.. Just think about it.. It could just easily not exist, but it does. This is why I respect Ginger. She is the mother of all this.. None of it had to be, and Fornits is a force to be reckoned with.. Great vision involved here. IMHO
Yes she does and I don't think I take that for granted but I will take into consideration that my actions are displaying this possibly.
Hmm.... See, to me, at this point.. You don t seem to be a bad guy at all. I think ya got a bit of illegitimate bad rap, but I also think, as you say, you brought some of it upon yourself..
I'm a dick sometimes, too.....LOL :)
As I said Joe turned Elan into his personal nightmare, he was a very sick man. [/color]
He sounds like real sick Fuck. My understanding is that Elan was originally suppose to be a kinder, gentler Daytop, and that good ol' Joe Ricci was a daytop resident. Well, it seems something went wrong, somewhere. Very wrong.
I understand these people.. I understand how they work. They enjoy it.. It is done for sport. There was no ring at Daytop. It was not violent at all, but I have seen things like, they ll have a guy stand up with insecurity- issues, and the attractive girls there would scream at him how repulsive he is, and things of that sort..
Yes some Staff and Directors did do this for sport and if they mentally fucked you enough you could possibly do it to other residents, I did as a resident and as staff. I just don't know if I did it as a sport because I really was not getting a big kick out of screaming at people or all the other abuses Elan had.
I seen many staff, and status, do it for sport. I seen it.
I remember there was one staff-girl there when I first started. She was young.. maybe like 21. She was the only one there who wasn t formerly a resident. She was the only one there who seemed to me overall, like she was a normal person.. She was playing the Daytop game, but it was not in her heart, and I knew this. I think she was mostly a a young, maybe a bit naieve, career minded woman.
I'm not sure what exactly happened, but I know she quit at some point, and we were all banned from having any communications with her. I didn t mean shit to me, but some of the people had a very strong bond with her..
Every resident had their own like primary counselor. For the people who had her.. One day, she was like the most important authority in your life, and the next day, suddenly, she was an untouchable. One thing I do remember, is that a lot of the parents favored over other counselors, and that made them steaming mad, as he did have the training they did.. and blah.. blah.. and of course this was taken out on the parent's child- so damn unprofessional.
and of the course, the person would cry.. The particular person, taht i am talking about has never been the same again, from that day in his life.. and no it's not me.. but he's been living in self-made delusions ever since.
I also know some folks living that way myself Elan was a big part but his life before and after was a mess. Their family life sucked ect....
Yeah, but I ll tell ya danny, this guy may have had some problems... but for the most part, he was just another guy at daytop. Umm.. He wasn t one of the kids, who smoked a lil pot, and their parents bugged out and sent them there.. But he wasn t a heroine or a crack addict either.. he was like in the middle.
I'm tellin' ya.. he was just another residents.. I v met his parents too.. they seemed like good people.. He was well off too..
But that fucking day, changed this dude's life, and set him on a new path, that last I checked, he still has not gotten off of.. he's not a bad guy at all.. he's just a compulsive, who lives in a world of delusions. It all happenned that fucking day.. they changed that fucking dudes life forever.
Would the same thing have broken me? Absolutely not! So can people say.. " Oh, well he was weak!"
I guess so.. But still it wasn t fucking necessary. H was young and his mind was simply not strong enough to handle that humiliation. One thing was worse about Daytop, then Elan, is that in Elan, at least most people knew, they were in a crazy place.. In daytop, most people actually did believe in the shit.
But what I mostly remember was how much the staff enjoyed it.. They should have stopped it, but they liked it, because they feed on unhappiness, and pain, and misery..
Not all staff enjoyed watching people go through pain we just felt helpless to stop it, like I had no balls. Is that a excuse, of course not but it is the truth. At that point in my life I I felt could not nor would not stand up for the residents. I was so overwhelmed by Elan I did not even think to get help, reach out to the authorities. I thought some of the behavioral methods they were using were wrong ei: Ring, spanking, cowboy ass kicking but other methods I thought helped. That is how fucked up I was.I just wanted out when I left and never wanted to speak of it again.
I think that that is why that girl left. I understand . When you are immersed in a reality, it can almost seem that reality itself has turned upside-down.
The self can get lost in it all.
I would have to think that when it is tucked away in the woods, that can make it all the more encompassing.
They temporarily inflate their hollow egos, by crushing others, in the name of a cause.
Yes breaking you down psychologically but not having a clue as to how to bring you back. Yes that is what is happening in most of the TC's. Staff that is uneducated (barley have H.S. diploma) and inexperienced educated staff being put in charge to run therapeutic systems, ie: group sessions, individual counseling, writing progress reports, writing psychological profiles ect.....
But that's the thing Danny. they are not failing at what they are trying to do. Rather, it is impossible to do what they trying to do. You can not break down a person, and then build them up again! It is undo-able. It is a faulty theory, and it has never, ever worked a single time. I put my name on that.
Even if it did work, the ends do not justify the means.
" Well, I did go up to the random stranger, and cut the poor fuckers arm off with a chain saw, but it was only so I could give him this better robot-arm.
He should be thanking me. He's just a baby, because he failed to make good use of the better robot arm, and now he wants to blame on me, rather then just grow up. I mean .. Is he really still whining about the chain saw? that's "tough love" baby! I guess he just couldn t handle it.
and so I repeat:
Even if it did work, the ends do not justify the means.
Bit doesn t work.. It can t work.. It won t work. People are not designed to be broken down and rebuilt.
I ve heard the stories, and I know that the Elan counselors are of the same breed as the Daytop counselors.. Except they are a lot worse. I know these people.. I looked into them.. I know what I saw.. they could not trick me.. and they knew it.
Not all Paul, not all. Yes I will agree I don't think I have heard of another program like Elan from 1974 on things at Elan got sicker and sicker as Joe got sicker.
l[/b]
Yep.. very unique, indeed, this Elan school.. I think that you can be a valuable contributor.
I can say this right now.. Any Elan staff who have been following this shit, have their fingers crossed, that you remain at odds, with the other posters.
Paul St. John
Danny
[/quote]
:shamrock: :shamrock:
.
We are good Paul St.John. Very nice biblical name maybe a Catholic. Thanks for your replies. I will be around hope to have more conversations.
Danny
-
Danny I think you now understand how much pain you caused innocent victims. They will be forever traumatized. You should never forget that YOU played a part in that. Think long and hard before you scream about abusive programs considering you were an abuser yourself.
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny I think you now understand how much pain you caused innocent victims. They will be forever traumatized. You should never forget that YOU played a part in that. Think long and hard before you scream about abusive programs considering you were an abuser yourself.[/quote
]
DannyB wrote:
No I don't think I will, I will keep screaming about my abuse I endured and the abuse that was and is going on. Obviously you have not read a darn thing I wrote. You are a day late and a dollar short to be jumping on that wagon. I have already played out my guilt now I am into proactive restitution my friend.
So you stay in the past and keep telling me what I am supposed to do while I'm going to get on with the present and do what I need to do.
Hey we don't need to be assholes, ya know.
Danny
-
Danny I think you now understand how much pain you caused innocent victims. They will be forever traumatized. You should never forget that YOU played a part in that. Think long and hard before you scream about abusive programs considering you were an abuser yourself.
No I don't think I will, I will keep screaming about my abuse I endured and the abuse that was and is going on. Obviously you have not read a darn thing I wrote. You are a day late and a dollar short to be jumping on that wagon. I have already played out my guilt now I am into proactive restitution my friend.
So you stay in the past and keep telling me what I am supposed to do while I'm going to get on with the present and do what I need to do.
Hey we don't need to be assholes, ya know.
Danny
What's in a name... ? ;D
-
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Danny I think you now understand how much pain you caused innocent victims. They will be forever traumatized. You should never forget that YOU played a part in that. Think long and hard before you scream about abusive programs considering you were an abuser yourself.
No I don't think I will, I will keep screaming about my abuse I endured and the abuse that was and is going on. Obviously you have not read a darn thing I wrote. You are a day late and a dollar short to be jumping on that wagon. I have already played out my guilt now I am into proactive restitution my friend.
So you stay in the past and keep telling me what I am supposed to do while I'm going to get on with the present and do what I need to do.
Hey we don't need to be assholes, ya know.
Danny
What's in a name... ? ;D
I don't know expound, please.
Danny
-
I don't know expound, please.
A play on words, one of which was in a name:
asshole" / don't need to be assholes / what's in a name... ?[/list]
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
blah blah blah...
Hey we don't need to be assholes, ya know.
What's in a name... ? ;D
-
I don't know expound, please.
A play on words, one of which was in a name:
asshole" / don't need to be assholes / what's in a name... ?[/list]
-------------- • -------------- • --------------
blah blah blah...
Hey we don't need to be assholes, ya know.
What's in a name... ? ;D
:shamrock: :shamrock:
Thanks......
Danny
-
:bump:
-
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37915 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37915)
-
[quote}Danny wrote:
Anne, here is my answer to you since you have been so persistence with your sincerity to know the truth, ya right.
"Your absolutely right I do know a lot but your not going to hear it. Why because you don't deserve to hear it. There are so many more Elan survivors I can think of who want answers or want to know what happen with Staff and Directors that are respectful and just plain decent human beings. It would be my duty and pleasure to tell them and I have whenever I can. People email me often now asking for answers I do my best to oblige. But I will not do that here under these pretenses you folks have created here."
Danny
Then, why are you here?
You come here simply to evade questions?
Respectful? Why the hell should they be respectful? They're pissed off. You ought answer their questions now. They re the victims.
If you think that they should have to kiss your ass, in order to get answers, well, then that is fine. You are allowed to think that. But you can t think that, and act like you are walking on some higher moral ground, at the same time.
Again, why are you here? Are you just trying to prove to yourself that you can withstand the scrutiny? Can you see how your prescence here, along with your way of no affect, can be bothering people?
Honestly, Danny, you are in their RING now, and I think they are being pretty nice about the whole thing.
I don't know much about ya man, but I know that you are smug, and I know that there was something that I didn t like about ya from the first thing I read from you. You are posting on survivor forum, openly admitting that you were a counselor, and acting like your shit don't stink.
Do you really think that people wanna see your stupid clover after every post? They don't. They are not interested in your self-promotion. They want information. They want an apology. If you are trying to vindicate yourself, well, here's your opportunity, right here in Fornits.
You seem like you are a possibly a decent guy... Think about it mystery-man.
Paul[/quote]
:shamrock:
-
Ya' know I just read the last post and I started to think,Maybe this guy's gonna' make a point.Then I get to the bottom,and I see Wayne's rape accusations. He just don't give up does he?
oy......
-
(http://http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash2/23306_119922351379303_7865_n.jpg).
-
Check out this picture of me guys (http://https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcwy2B4C-MHJIdXYBpuEO3BpwAsP5ZtSEeoO1m6k7IZug15tyLaA)..
-
(http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/download/file.php?avatar=5783_1262252887.jpg)(http://https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSo3ce3JNOBXCyJeX5AiKoQWmHingavkNsEll_mledmJ2jcBahJ4Q)(http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/download/file.php?avatar=5783_1262252887.jpg)
-
(http://http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/249/a/6/rape_jokes_by_mexpiratered-d492xmv.jpg)...
-
[attachment=0:g2jgbeak]download.jpg[/attachment:g2jgbeak]
-
(http://http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fObSStlFSGg/S-oU8vzfghI/AAAAAAAAERk/r-CiNzw1Qys/s1600/DogShit.jpg)