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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Kathy on June 18, 2006, 09:14:00 AM

Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Kathy on June 18, 2006, 09:14:00 AM
http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.html (http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.html)



Lenny Ortega - May 30, 2006



June 17, 2006 It's now being ordered shut by the state.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Troll Control on June 18, 2006, 02:44:00 PM
Where's The Who?  He was a staunch supporter of this program and when I said they were killing kids he said I was "extreme," "uninformed" and that nobody really knew what happened, but it seemed like just "an accident."

Time for you to eat a healthy portion of your own ignornt words once again, Who.  I've never seen someone who presents as a "thinker" be so wrong so many times on so many different issues.

Too bad that it takes two dead kids to get the attention needed to close the place with apologists like The Who running around defending programs sight-unseen.  Too bad also that another kid had to die while you were waiting for "the facts to emerge," Who.  

Here's the facts:Star Ranch kills kids.  Just like I said when they killed the last one.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 18, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
More on Star Ranch here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 53&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12953&forum=9)
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Troll Control on June 18, 2006, 05:16:00 PM
Quote
Posted: 2005-12-22 19:12:00  
The Who said:

"Hey dont let them get to you, they try to rile people up with false info (hopeing you wont check on them), throw gas on the fire , makes them feel important. Let em talk, when the report comes out they will be gone or try to convince you the cops were paid off... I've seen their types before..."


Hey, Who, the report is out.  It's shows another dead kid.  

We've seen your type before, too.  You're a deaf, dumb and blind supporter of programs that kill kids.  Nice job.  Way to be on the right side of the issue  :roll:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 18, 2006, 05:31:00 PM
I wonder if the parent of the dead kid came here and took comfort in his posts and sent their kid? It is possible and you should think about that blind program supporters like who.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 09:37:00 AM
Wow.  :cry:  :cry:


We're waiting Who.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 02:40:00 PM
Interesting.  He's got time to respond to this http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#201790 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=15793&forum=52&start=0#201790)
 and promote a students paper as legitimate "research" but doesn't have time to address the most recent Star Ranch death and subsequent closing.  Hmm.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
He'll respond... he has no shame.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 03:25:00 PM
Any child that dies is a tragic loss.  What I fail to see in this thread is that the first child died while the staff was trying to prevent the child from hurting him/herself.  The initial report  read:

The staffer performed a state-approved "basket hold restraint," in which a child's arms are held across the chest, after all other options were exhausted......

I have not seen a follow-up or conclusive report.

The second child was on an outing with his house parents when his bike was swept away when he entered or neared a creek.

Again with the gasoline, I am not a Staunch supporter of Star Ranch, as most of us are aware of.  I do, however, try to bring balance when I feel a story or event is being unfairly represented or misrepresented.  If you recall in December there were many people here at fornits standing by ready to hang a couple of staff when a child died in their care, when the information available showed very clearly that they followed state approved procedures during that incident.
If you look back you will see I was not supporting the school, but, I was trying to keep the discussion balanced which as it turns out was the right direction.

As far as this child being killed in the creek, this is the first I have heard of it and I take the same position.  It doesn?t appear to be intentional, or negligence mentioned.  Again,Lets see what the authorities turn up.  I think one of the problems is that so many are so desperate to blame the schools that they fail to look at the detail and the children themselves, (People, This is important)!! I could care less whether Star Ranch stays open or not, what I do care about are these kids and getting them the help they need.



[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-19 13:18 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 03:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 12:25:00, TheWho wrote:

"Any child that dies is a tragic loss.  What I fail to see in this thread is that the first child died while the staff was trying to prevent the child from hurting him/herself.  The initial report  read:



The staffer performed a state-approved "basket hold restraint," in which a child's arms are held across the chest, after all other options were exhausted......

I'd be most interested to know what provoked the need for a restraint.  I can't tell you how many times kids in the place I was in were restrained for nothing more than looking at a member of the opposite sex or refusing to do an exercise.  The "restraint" was more about showing the kid who was boss.  I also witnessed many, many kids poked and prodded and needled until they reacted in some way and the staff had an excuse for a "restraint".


Quote
If you recall in December there were many people here at fornits standing by ready to hang a couple of staff when a child died in their care, when the information available showed very clearly that they followed state approved procedures during that incident.

Which specific case are you referring to?


Quote
Again,Lets see what the authorities turn up.


It seems the authorities have turned up enough to close the place down.  Really Who, what more do I want you to admit that there's a problem with the school?

Quote
I think one of the problems is that so many are so desperate to blame the schools that they fail to look at the detail and the children themselves, (People, This is important)!! I could care less whether Star Ranch stays open or not, what I do care about are these kids and getting them the help they need.

"


And again I maintain that you've bought into the false premise that these kids are in dire need of this extreme form of, ahem, "treatment".   I maintain that you wholeheartedly buy into this culture that views adolescense as a pathology ( :tup: to whoever started that thread, I like that analogy).
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 03:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:


Quote
Again,Lets see what the authorities turn up.




It seems the authorities have turned up enough to close the place down.  Really Who, what more do I want you to admit that there's a problem with the school?


Damn filter.  That should read.....what more do y0u need to admit......
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Quote
I'd be most interested to know what provoked the need for a restraint.

I believe it was that the child was severely banging his head against the cement and staff was trying to stop the child.

Quote
Which specific case are you referring to?

The child that died in December of 2005

Quote
It seems the authorities have turned up enough to close the place down. Really Who, what more do I want you to admit that there's a problem with the school?

I agree 100%, if the authorities feel it should be shut down then they have their reasons.  Is it because a child died?  Could be, but we don?t know at this time.

Quote
And again I maintain that you've bought into the false premise that these kids are in dire need of this extreme form of, ahem, "treatment". I maintain that you wholeheartedly buy into this culture that views adolescense as a pathology (  to whoever started that thread, I like that analogy).


No, I haven?t bought into anything.  I am not a band wagon jumper, I like to think of myself as someone who takes a look at situations and events independently.  If a guy jumps off a bridge and kills himself, I am not going to spend my life trying to get the bridge torn down.  I may try to figure out why that person killed himself and then try to apply this knowledge to helping others.  It is just better time spent, in my opinion.

I do like the pathology analogy also, adolescence does seem like a disease sometimes !!
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 19, 2006, 04:38:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 165#195989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12953&forum=9&start=165#195989)

Sheriff Rusty Hierholzer said Monday that the boy, who has not been named, was wading in the creek. Star Ranch employee Lisa Marie Mariana went into the creek after him as he was swept away by water moving downstream toward the Bluff Trail Road low-water crossing.

The current also carried Mariana downstream against the bridge, where she was pulled out by Donald Ehlers, who lives upstream from the property.

[First, is it ever wise to have only one staff at a water activity? Second, I lived in the area where this happened, on a creek near a low-water crossing. Locals know not to allow children to play near them and particularly near the crossings where water passes under the bridge through large metal culverts. Some have guards, others don?t. Limbs can get jammed in those without guards. Therefore if a person gets sucked into the pipe, they are trapped and will not shoot out the other side. Star Ranch should have known this and set stringent rules for water safety. Depending on the current, which varies, water only 6? deep can knock an adult male off their feet. If I were in charge of a group of kids, they would play where the water pools and has little to no current. Doesn?t it make sense that the program would have such safety rules in place?]

Ehlers said the boys were playing and riding their bikes through a shallow-water crossing for about 20 minutes before the accident occurred.

?It was a two-inch rain, and the water came up after the rain,? he said. ?I don?t know why they let those kids down there.?
[Yep, Mr. Ehlers, some of us wonder the same thing.]

****Another boy required hospital treatment recently after being stabbed by another resident. The injured boy?s family did not press charges, law enforcement officials said.

But it was the accident last week that triggered the decision to end the state contract.

I think it was the incident that convinced us there seemed to be a PATTERN OF INADEQUATE SUPERVISON,? Crimmins said. New placements had been found for all 19 boys by late Friday, he added.

A grand jury found no criminal conduct in Mikie's death and the state placed the facility on probation.
Although,
State officials say a follow-up investigation found the ranch DIDN?T COMPLY WITH RULES REGARDING USE OF RESTRAINTS THAT IMPAIR BREATHING. Records also show the ranch WASN?T MEETING REQUIREMENTS ON TRAINING AND SUPERVISION FOR STAFF, said Patrick Crimmins, Family and Protective Services spokesman.

Re: Restraints- anyone interested can read this excellent 5 part article
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB/1998ha ... urant.html (http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB/1998hartfordcourant.html)
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 04:56:00 PM
Based on that information, Deborah, the closing would be justified.  What they should do is pull their license to operate force them to address all their problems before they can reapply.  
If the individual states do not enforce licensing and provide oversight some of these facilities? supervisory levels will continue to wane.  Maybe this will be a wake up call for some of the other states and force better regulation.  The ones who really lose here are the kids. Its really to bad.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 19, 2006, 04:59:00 PM
***I believe it was that the child was severely banging his head against the cement and staff was trying to stop the child.

I don't recall 'severely'.... but let's see how many options to restraint the brilliant minds on Fornits can come up with, for this situation. We could compile our suggestions and send them to programs known to restrain. I said that faceteously, but it actually sounds like a good idea!

I'll start:

De:Escalation- don't bait and/to punish. The incident began when the counselor demanded that the kid take a shower. With a highly reactive child, What is frequently called for is for the adult to back off and try a different tact.

Get assistance, two people pick him up my his hands and feet and move him back to the pool or onto the grass.

Get your body (lap), life preserver, etc between his head and and the concrete.

Lacking real skill in helping these kids deal with their hurt and fear, and while oppressive, they could require head bangers to wear helmets.
A damn sight better than death by restraint.

What are your suggestions, Who?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Troll Control on June 19, 2006, 05:24:00 PM
Quote
The Who wrote:
"I do like the pathology analogy also, adolescence does seem like a disease"


Exactly the point everyone here keeps making about you.  You DO buy into the disease concept and you DO think that treatment centers are the cure.  You are ONE SICK INDIVIDUAL.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 05:37:00 PM
Quote
De:Escalation- don't bait and/to punish. The incident began when the counselor demanded that the kid take a shower. With a highly reactive child, What is frequently called for is for the adult to back off and try a different tact.

I don?t know enough about the situation to know if this was done or not.

Quote
Get assistance, two people pick him up my his hands and feet and move him back to the pool or onto the grass.

Yes, a softer surface.  As myself, not being trained, I would drag him to the lawn if it was close by, if I could manage.

Quote
Get your body (lap), life preserver, etc between his head and and the concrete.
 Depends on how violently he is hitting his head, you could both get hurt if you put yourself between him and the ground.  Life preserver is a good idea.

Quote
Lacking real skill in helping these kids deal with their hurt and fear, and while oppressive, they could require head bangers to wear helmets.
A damn sight better than death by restraint.


I do see your point and he may be alive today if he had a Helmut on, it is never a good idea to make someone wear something that sets him/her apart from their peers.  Not sure what type of school it is and whether this would be a detriment to his social growth or not.  If everyone wore helmuts sure.

What are your suggestions, Who?

I like some of the ones you came up with.  It seems that if there were more staff available to just pick the guy up and move him to a soft surface.  I know it is easy in hind sight and I would never assume to put myself in the counselors shoes.  They were there and probably did what their training dictated and that?s all they could do.  If it turned out to be a training issue this is where the time and effort should be put to correct the problem.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
I remember these four kids that came into the program I was in.  Young, about 13 or 14.  None of them had any violent history, either towards themselves or anyone else.  Just your basic run of the mill semi-stoner, they weren't really heavy into it.  Kinda weekend warriors.  Each one of those kids ended up either running into walls head on, banging their head on the floor or cutting themselves.  I saw these kids from the first day they came in until the last day they were taken out (2 to mental hospitals, 2 who's parents came and got them once they wised up) and the changes I saw in those kids will haunt me forever.  They were decent, normal kids who's parents had been scared into believing that they would DIE without being in there.  The kids weren't physically abused.  It was all mental and emotional torture until they broke and started truly exhibiting signs of mental illnes that were NOT there before.

Happens all the time.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 06:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I remember these four kids that came into the program I was in.  Young, about 13 or 14.  None of them had any violent history, either towards themselves or anyone else.  Just your basic run of the mill semi-stoner, they weren't really heavy into it.  Kinda weekend warriors.  Each one of those kids ended up either running into walls head on, banging their head on the floor or cutting themselves.  I saw these kids from the first day they came in until the last day they were taken out (2 to mental hospitals, 2 who's parents came and got them once they wised up) and the changes I saw in those kids will haunt me forever.  They were decent, normal kids who's parents had been scared into believing that they would DIE without being in there.  The kids weren't physically abused.  It was all mental and emotional torture until they broke and started truly exhibiting signs of mental illnes that were NOT there before.



Happens all the time.  "


There was this kid in my high school who was quiet all the time, but got very good grades and one day just flipped out and started banging himself (face) into his locker.  I didnt see it but a friend of mine was one of the ones who subdued him .  He hurt himself pretty badly and had scars on his face for at least the time until he graduated.  There are just people who are dealing with stuff all the time under the surface and then something triggers it, detention, girlfriend etc.  This guy never talked about it again so we never knew why, he seemed pretty normal other than that one event.  I agree, events like that, especially if they occur in the teen years can haunt you for a long time.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 06:53:00 PM
Maybe I didn't make my point clear enough.  I saw these four kids absolutely tortured.  Beaten down emotionally and psychologically every day for months until that precious little spirit of theirs was completely broken.  It had nothing to do with them just "acting crazy" out of the blue.  We all could see it coming.  Not one of us was surpised a bit.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
Thats a crime, Schools like that will eventually go out of business or change their ways.  If that continues people will stop sending their kids there.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
Yes, well they did stop sending their kids there.  Only after years and years of abuse heaped upon thousands of kids.  Then they just opened up under another name.  Sometimes in the same location, sometimes in other states.  Their "methods" though live on through WWASPS programs and the like.

Nothing is going to change until we stop viewing adolescence as something to be controlled.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 16:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yes, well they did stop sending their kids there.  Only after years and years of abuse heaped upon thousands of kids.  Then they just opened up under another name.  Sometimes in the same location, sometimes in other states.  Their "methods" though live on through WWASPS programs and the like.



Nothing is going to change until we stop viewing adolescence as something to be controlled."

The industry is growing and when it hits a certain level of ?Gross income? (Revenue generation) , for the industry, the feds and state will want to step in for a larger slice and then we will start to see more regulation and oversight/funding.  Just a matter of time before the scales are tipped.

Quote
Nothing is going to change until we stop viewing adolescence as something to be controlled.


Agreed, I think kids are always going to push it one step further than we want them to (or think we can tolerate), its part of growing up and spreading of their wings.  Its our job, as parents, to make sure they do it safely and emerge ?out the other end? in one piece.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 08:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 16:39:00, TheWho wrote:

The industry is growing............



THAT is the problem.  There is no evidence that a need for such an "industry" exists.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 09:10:00 PM
Agreed, I think kids are always going to push it one step further than we want them to (or think we can tolerate), its part of growing up and spreading of their wings.  Its our job, as parents, to make sure they do it safely and emerge ?out the other end? in one piece.

"
[/quote]
But why institutionalise kids to keep them safe? no other western country does this to teenagers! There are hundreds of other options for normal adolescent issues? Even if a place does not aduse per se & I dont know if they all do, almost all of them advertise that the kid has to 'earn priveliges" and that among the issues they deal with are defiance, self esteem and the prennial favourite "manipulation". How does sending kids away with the message that they are either not good enough or they are "mentally ill" help them. What does it keep them safe from?
Normal boarding schools do not use contact with the parent as either a reward, a punishment or therapy because they do not assume that they have more authority than the kid's family. They certainly dont keep kids there over summer and christmas because it is not seen as their role.For me the question is not wheter TBS and wilderness therapy is abvusive or not (this is a linked sideline issue) the question is why anyone would think a kid is better off with stangers as their only parental figures and why the mentality of the industry is so bloddy spiteful.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Fire Swamp on June 19, 2006, 09:13:00 PM
Who, you're nothing but a bloody industry WHORE, aren't you???  :rofl:  :wave:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 19, 2006, 09:14:00 PM
oops above poster was me!
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Fire Swamp on June 19, 2006, 09:14:00 PM
Shut up and be sure to login next time, FOOL!!  :smokin:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
But why institutionalise kids to keep them safe? no other western country does this to teenagers! There are hundreds of other options for normal adolescent issues? Even if a place does not aduse per se & I dont know if they all do, almost all of them advertise that the kid has to 'earn priveliges" and that among the issues they deal with are defiance, self esteem and the prennial favourite "manipulation". How does sending kids away with the message that they are either not good enough or they are "mentally ill" help them. What does it keep them safe from?

A very small percentage of kids end up at TBS? after the other options available fail to work.  The schools deal with defiance, self esteem issues.  Earning privileges isn?t anything new nor is it abusive.  Virtually every job, household or life situation one will earn more money, freedom, vacation time etc. based on how maturely it is handled


Quote
Normal boarding schools do not use contact with the parent as either a reward, a punishment or therapy because they do not assume that they have more authority than the kid's family. They certainly dont keep kids there over summer and christmas because it is not seen as their role.

Normal boarding schools are not necessarily dealing with kids who may have a difficult home life.  The childs home may be the problem, the family may be unhealthy and needs time to heal.  The children are often removed from an unhealthy environment (Friends, family, inlaws etc.) and kept safe from them until the problems can be identified and hopefully resolved.


Quote
For me the question is not wheter TBS and wilderness therapy is abvusive or not (this is a linked sideline issue) the question is why anyone would think a kid is better off with stangers as their only parental figures and why the mentality of the industry is so bloddy spiteful.


If you speak to any of the parents they don?t feel, initially, that anyplace could be better for their child than home.  But as home time after time fails them and their child they start to run out of options and the main concern is to get their child to a place that is safe for them, a place where they can flourish and grow.  If this happens to be away from home, it may not be ideal, but the childs welfare has to come first and a separation for a time is ?sometimes? the best thing.
Many people don?t believe that here and that is fine, they have had other experiences and have a right to their opinions and choices.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 09:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 18:36:00, TheWho wrote:




A very small percentage of kids end up at TBS?

and a fraction of those that DID end up there needed any form of "treatment" at all.


Quote
Earning privileges isn?t anything new nor is it abusive.  Virtually every job, household or life situation one will earn more money, freedom, vacation time etc. based on how maturely it is handled

Earning food or basic social interaction or hygiene is not therapeutic.  Having every single moment of your time, space, thoughts and privacy is not therapeutic.  Having communication with parents severely monitored and restricted is not therapeutic (no matter how you want to spin it with tales of how the kid needs to earn the right to talk to them).  


Quote
The childs home may be the problem, the family may be unhealthy and needs time to heal.  


Ah but the kid is the one who is sent away.  The kid is the one made to feel responsible for the families issues.  The kid is the one who ends up feeling abandoned and inadequate and unloved and scared to death....NOT the fucking parent.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 10:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 18:36:00, TheWho wrote:

If you speak to any of the parents they don?t feel, initially, that anyplace could be better for their child than home.  But as home time after time fails them and their child


The home hasn't failed them.  The parents have and, again, it ends up being the kid who pays the price.

Who, you haven't been in one of these places.  You really have no idea what it can do to a person.  Even the ones where there is no physical abuse or blatantk, obvious emotional abuse.  The sense of abandonment, shame, loss of control, fear, insecurity etc. weaves a nasty fabric of life.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 10:05:00 PM
Quote
and a fraction of those that DID end up there needed any form of "treatment" at all.
We dont know that for sure.

Quote
Earning food or basic social interaction or hygiene is not therapeutic. Having every single moment of your time, space, thoughts and privacy is not therapeutic. Having communication with parents severely monitored and restricted is not therapeutic (no matter how you want to spin it with tales of how the kid needs to earn the right to talk to them).

All of them put together, no.  If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).  But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction), no favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges) , has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents), I would see this as excessive, yes.  So I guess we could agree, one needs to earn privileges, but not all at once.


Quote
Ah but the kid is the one who is sent away. The kid is the one made to feel responsible for the families issues. The kid is the one who ends up feeling abandoned and inadequate and unloved and scared to death....NOT the fucking parent.


Actually I think if the child could maintain the household and the rest of the family could go get help you may see this more often as an option.  But realistically it just isn?t an option that can be brought to the table.  If the parents left for an extended period of time the home environment would cave in financially, in most cases.  But theoretically I think many would agree that sometimes it doesn?t matter who leaves, especially if the family dynamics are the main issue.  
Just to mention that most parents don?t see the child as the entire problem, it is viewed as a family issue.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 10:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 19:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-19 18:36:00, TheWho wrote:


If you speak to any of the parents they don?t feel, initially, that anyplace could be better for their child than home.  But as home time after time fails them and their child



The home hasn't failed them.  The parents have and, again, it ends up being the kid who pays the price.



Who, you haven't been in one of these places.  You really have no idea what it can do to a person.  Even the ones where there is no physical abuse or blatantk, obvious emotional abuse.  The sense of abandonment, shame, loss of control, fear, insecurity etc. weaves a nasty fabric of life."


Not in all cases, its not absolute (ie, just the kids fault, just the parents or friends etc.)  It is a combination of many environmental factors in most cases.
We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault.  The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 10:23:00 PM
The longer I"m a parent the more strongly I feel about this issue.  I have a child who is a few years past the age of majority that scares the living shit out of me still.  Good kid, just doing stupid shit.  I think back to how my parents handled my idiotic behavior and I do the opposite.  I don't try and control her.  I don't make the decisions for her when I see so clearly that she's really doing some fucked up things.  I WANT to more than I can express but I know better.  She doesn't learn when I'm "in charge" of her life.  She does learn (excruciatingly slowly sometimes I admit) when she has to go through the experiences on her own.  Very few kids actually push to the point of death.  Yes, accidents happen, bad things happen but the stats are far lower than parents are led to believe and when they're in the throws of all the drama, chaos and fear its easy to believe all the hype.  I understand that all too well but I've also been able to view this from both sides so I think it gives me a distinct advantage.   My parents were absolutely convinced that i would be dead within a year if I wasnt' 'in the program'.  It was such a load of bullshit.

One thing I am grateful for as far as my incarceration.  It assured that my kids would never, EVER be sent away no matter how bad things got.  I knew better.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 19, 2006, 10:30:00 PM
***If you speak to any of the parents they don?t feel, initially, that anyplace could be better for their child than home.

If you speak to any of the parents who were defrauded, manipulated, lied to, or those who have children who were abused, killed, neglected, or otherwise harmed; they will tell you that they regret having entrusted their precious child to strangers who had no vested interest in their well being.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 19, 2006, 10:52:00 PM
If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).
*Being denied use of the car for a week is not equivalent to isolation from the real world for 2 years, but you know that.

But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction)
*Even if grounded, the kid still has social interaction at school.

No favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges)
*Loosing snacks is not equivalent to being denied adequate calories for extended periods of time. It is also not equivalent to being forced to eat raw grains and beans, or even cooked grains and beans with no salt. In case you're unaware, salt is not just a condiment. When you're eating grains and beans it is a necessary digestive aid.

Has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents)
*Again, nowhere equivalent to having a ten minute phone call once a week, provided s/he hasn't lost the 'privelge'.

*So, I assume that in your example, the punishment exceeded the crime. Well, welcome to program methodology, where minor infractions are met with swift and irrational punishments.

We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault. The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.
*What study was that comment derived from?  Which ?many? programs are you referring to?

Are you an Ed Con, Who?
Or a PR person for 'many' of these programs?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 11:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 19:30:00, Deborah wrote:

"***If you speak to any of the parents they don?t feel, initially, that anyplace could be better for their child than home.



If you speak to any of the parents who were defrauded, manipulated, lied to, or those who have children who were abused, killed, neglected, or otherwise harmed; they will tell you that they regret having entrusted their precious child to strangers who had no vested interest in their well being.



"

This applies across the board to any parent who trusted their childs care to a neighbor, school teacher, baby sitter, uncle.  If something happened to that child they would regret ever entrusting their child to any of these people, strangers who defrauded them and had no vested interest in their Childs well-being.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
Thanks TSW, I wasn't sure it really made sense.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.  I've got two kids, both over 18.  One is pretty much on the way to leading a relatively happy life.  Good head on her shoulders, not a party girl (was for about a year, even quit school but went back and graduated and grew up).  The older one has always taken two steps forward, one step back.  She's hardheaded and a pain in the ass.  I've watched how their friends parents have handled these situations too in an effort to learn more about what would make a parent go through with sending their kids to one of these places.  From where I'm sitting the program parents see things in absolutes.  They're waiting for the kid to cross the finish line, so to speak.  I've learned in dealing with my older child that just when I think she's over the idiot boyfriend or thru the 'I wanna party all the time' phase or the running and running to avoid her deprogramming from the idiot boyfriend, she stumbles.  What I'm learning is that each time she stumbles (and some of them are doooooooooozies) she does learn.  She's gotten a few scrapes, abrasions and even a few gaping wounds but nothing compared to the ones I received at the hands of those claiming to be 'helping' me.  As I said before, sometimes it's an excruciatingly slow process but it's the way it's supposed to work.  Institutionalizing and warehousing kid has never been intended to work.

Sorry for the ramble.  I'm home sick and on some good drugs so this may not be all that coherent.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 11:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 19:52:00, Deborah wrote:

"

If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).

*Being denied use of the car for a week is not equivalent to isolation from the real world for 2 years, but you know that.



But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction)

*Even if grounded, the kid still has social interaction at school.



No favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges)

*Loosing snacks is not equivalent to being denied adequate calories for extended periods of time. It is also not equivalent to being forced to eat raw grains and beans, or even cooked grains and beans with no salt. In case you're unaware, salt is not just a condiment. When you're eating grains and beans it is a necessary digestive aid.



Has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents)

*Again, nowhere equivalent to having a ten minute phone call once a week, provided s/he hasn't lost the 'privelge'.



*So, I assume that in your example, the punishment exceeded the crime. Well, welcome to program methodology, where minor infractions are met with swift and irrational punishments.



We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault. The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.

*What study was that comment derived from?  Which ?many? programs are you referring to?



Are you an Ed Con, Who?

Or a PR person for 'many' of these programs?

"


And a big Amen to that. :tup:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 11:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 19:52:00, Deborah wrote:

"

If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).

*Being denied use of the car for a week is not equivalent to isolation from the real world for 2 years, but you know that.



But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction)

*Even if grounded, the kid still has social interaction at school.



No favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges)

*Loosing snacks is not equivalent to being denied adequate calories for extended periods of time. It is also not equivalent to being forced to eat raw grains and beans, or even cooked grains and beans with no salt. In case you're unaware, salt is not just a condiment. When you're eating grains and beans it is a necessary digestive aid.



Has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents)

*Again, nowhere equivalent to having a ten minute phone call once a week, provided s/he hasn't lost the 'privelge'.



*So, I assume that in your example, the punishment exceeded the crime. Well, welcome to program methodology, where minor infractions are met with swift and irrational punishments.



We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault. The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.

*What study was that comment derived from?  Which ?many? programs are you referring to?



Are you an Ed Con, Who?

Or a PR person for 'many' of these programs?

"

My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.
I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 11:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 20:21:00, TheWho wrote:


My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.

I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.

"


If the parents can afford to send them to these over-priced factories then they can afford to take a couple of months off and take the kid on a month long road trip or go work with Habitat for Humanity for a few weeks.  Rent a cabin on a lake for a month.  Send them to live with a close relative out of state.  Anything but these places.

And again, the percentage of kids who actually need to be forcibly removed from the home is exceedingly low, IMO.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 19, 2006, 11:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-19 20:21:00, TheWho wrote:



My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.


I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.


"




If the parents can afford to send them to these over-priced factories then they can afford to take a couple of months off and take the kid on a month long road trip or go work with Habitat for Humanity for a few weeks.  Rent a cabin on a lake for a month.  Send them to live with a close relative out of state.  Anything but these places.



And again, the percentage of kids who actually need to be forcibly removed from the home is exceedingly low, IMO."


I agree, in some cases this may work.  Some TBS's wont take kids by force.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 11:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 20:35:00, TheWho wrote:

Some TBS's wont take kids by force."


I'm not just talking about physical force.  I'm talking about being taken out of the home against their will whether it's because they've been duped or cajoled or coerced or whatever.  They don't choose to leave the home.

This is getting tedious.  You are just hanging on by your fingernails to this false belief that there is a genuine need for these places.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 20, 2006, 12:12:00 AM
*** This applies across the board to any parent who trusted their childs care to a neighbor, school teacher, baby sitter, uncle. If something happened to that child they would regret ever entrusting their child to any of these people, strangers who defrauded them and had no vested interest in their Childs well-being..

And you can bet that anywhere else in the civilized world, there would be criminal charges filed for any civilian that treated a child the way they are treated in programs.

***My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life. You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.

Earning privileges is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on how it?s handled. And, no, we're not applying it across any board, because here in the real world only criminals treat kids with such utter disrespect. Only a sadist would consider contact with a parent a 'privilege'.
Kids are not earning ?privileges? in programs. They are loosing their rights, just like a criminal, and regain and loose them daily, based on their level of cooperation with their captors.

***If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem. Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.

This doesn?t make sense. Kids shouldn?t be given everything without any ?effort?, not consequence. I don't include necessities in that category. Salt and fire to cook your raw grains and beans are considered necessities to anyone in the civilized world. Toiletries, toilet paper, human touch, taking a shit in privacy, etc etc etc are not 'privileges' to be earned. And denying a child's basic needs does not build self-esteem, not in program land or the real world.

Are you an Ed Con, Who?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 20, 2006, 12:28:00 AM
Quote
programs?


"



My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.

I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.

Yes but at home using the car having a later curfew or watching a favourite tv show may be "earned" priveliges which only get taken away when a kid does something wrong! Alot of programmes seem to work with the idea the kid deserves nothing including affection or family contact until they prove otherwise. I dont know if it is abuse but it is pretty mean spirited & I cant see how it brings out the best in a kid!
I certainly dont know how it builds self esteem! [ This Message was edited by: Pls help on 2006-06-20 05:12 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 12:38:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 21:28:00, Pls help wrote:



Quote
My point was that kids need to earn their privileges be it at school or at home or in life.  You may label it as abusive, if you must, but one needs to apply it across the board.  If they are given everything for free without consequence you threaten their very self esteem.  Kids need to earn and accomplish and achieve.


I think we can all agree that home is the best place for kids to learn, but we don?t live in a world of absolutes, there are exceptions to every rule and the very small percentage that need to grow outside the home for a short time and get back on track do extremely well, there is no denying this.


"



Yes but at home using the car having a later curfew or watching a favourite tv show may be "earned" priveliges which only get taken away when a kid does something wrong! Alot of programmes seem to work with the idea the kid deserves nothing including affection or family contact until they prove otherwise. I dont know if it is abuse but it is pretty mean spirited & I cant see how it brings out the best in a kid!

I certainly dont know how it builds self esteem! "


 :tup:  :tup:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 12:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 21:12:00, Deborah wrote:


Are you an Ed Con, Who?"


I'd like an answer to that also.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Rachael on June 20, 2006, 12:48:00 AM
I hate it when the page goes all buggy like this.

If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 12:48:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 19:52:00, Deborah wrote:

"

If a child is living at home and comes home late from a party he may be denied the use of the car for one week (isolation).

*Being denied use of the car for a week is not equivalent to isolation from the real world for 2 years, but you know that.



But if you add, cant talk to friends (peer restriction)

*Even if grounded, the kid still has social interaction at school.



No favorite snacks only basic food(loss of food privileges)

*Loosing snacks is not equivalent to being denied adequate calories for extended periods of time. It is also not equivalent to being forced to eat raw grains and beans, or even cooked grains and beans with no salt. In case you're unaware, salt is not just a condiment. When you're eating grains and beans it is a necessary digestive aid.



Has to stay in room (Severely restrict communication with parents)

*Again, nowhere equivalent to having a ten minute phone call once a week, provided s/he hasn't lost the 'privelge'.



Am I wrong?  Do you, or did you have custody/control of your kid?  

*So, I assume that in your example, the punishment exceeded the crime. Well, welcome to program methodology, where minor infractions are met with swift and irrational punishments.



We need to stop viewing this as black and white, who is at fault. The kids need to be told this is not their fault and many of these schools stress this point.

*What study was that comment derived from?  Which ?many? programs are you referring to?



Are you an Ed Con, Who?

Or a PR person for 'many' of these programs?

"
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 12:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 21:48:00, Rachael wrote:

"I hate it when the page goes all buggy like this.

If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

"


It's the quote tags.  I think it was Pls Help's post.  Pls Help, could you be a dear and check your quote tags please? :smile:

If they don't catch it it'll clear up the next page.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Rachael on June 20, 2006, 01:10:00 AM
For the Who...


From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

>>>> I was not free, I was not safe.


Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

>>>> I was a slave, I was a servant to the every whim of my "oldcomers".


Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

>>>> I was subjected to torture, to very cruel, inhuman and degrading TREATMENT and punishment.


Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

>>>> I was hidden from the law, I had no lawmakers, or protectors to turn to. I was kept outside off the reach of the law. I could not ask for help from the law, and those who hurt me were not punished under the law.


Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

>>>> I was punished, ridiculed and humiliated for the audacity of claiming that I had rights.


Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

>>>> This will come, I will have my day.


Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

>>>> I was taken into a place of detention arbitrarily and kept there until I ran for my life without the ability to even challenge it.


Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

>>>> I had no trial.


Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

>>>> I was presumed guilty before I even committed a crime!


Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

>>>> This was the very nature of the "treatment" that was leveled against me.


Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

>>>> I didn't even have freedom of movement enough to go to the bathroom alone. I could not move an inch out of line. I had no freedom.


Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

>>>> My beliefs were stripped from me. I was broken, completely and utterly so that someone could put there beliefs where mine had been.


Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

>>>> I could not speak my opinions. I could not read, I could not write, I couldn't listen to anything but "the program".


Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

>>>> I had no rest; I was regularly denied even the necessity of sleep.


Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

>>>> I was denied medical care when direly needed, I was harmed and denied care.


Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education.

>>>> I was taken out of school, denied the right to attend.









I had all my rights denied me. I did not need to earn them. I am a human, and thus I "deserve" them.  


Go fuck yourself.

I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.


--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge

Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Rachael on June 20, 2006, 01:31:00 AM
Here's just a little bit more (This time from the Convention on the Rights of the Child --- incidentally a child is anyone under the age of 18.):


Article 37
States Parties shall ensure that:
(a) No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age;

(b) No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily. The arrest, detention or imprisonment of a child shall be in conformity with the law and shall be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time;

(c) Every child deprived of liberty shall be treated with humanity and respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, and in a manner which takes into account the needs of persons of his or her age. In particular, every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so and shall have the right to maintain contact with his or her family through correspondence and visits, save in exceptional circumstances;

(d) Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial authority, and to a prompt decision on any such action.

Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 20, 2006, 04:29:00 AM
Hey you guys. i am sorry. I think I screwed up this page. I have not gotten the hang of quoting properly yet!
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 20, 2006, 07:50:00 AM
I think my playing with the quotes broke this page for good! from now on i think i will just paraphrase
 :cry2:
Any way! I am just curious who. In a previous thread   when i mentioned that i thought the idea of Wildreness therapy seemed good but i strongly disagreed with the negative mentality, you mentioned that some do not have this and just want allow struggling kids to get away from their troubles, get some hearty exercise and have some fun. I have searched the internet high and low to see if there are any such programmes. i could not find any! I looked at the places many parents recommended on struggling teens.

I also deliberately filled out a few assesments deliberately going with the most "mild" problems i could think of on 3 different sites, one of which was Aspen (Dr phil recommended after all) :wink:

None of them said that my "kid" was fine the way they are. Most of them recommended programmes which had some kind of "elements" component. None of them recommended the kids be allowed to write to anyone they want and some limited contact with the parents. They were all vague about what the kids were fed and those that outlined the kids day did not have any emphasis on any activities that seem much fun. All of the programmes were marketed to the parents. I would have thought that if this was meant to be a positive thing for the kid it would be marketed to them as well. Also it concerned me that most progammes has a catch all approach. Some of these programmes looked quite reputable in that they seemed to have well qualified staff.

So if these are the good quality ones, which programmes do take a Genuinely positive approach to the kid? Which ones are about the kid primarily having a great time and perhaps learning a little about themselves along the way?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 07:58:00 AM
Rachael, my daughter, other kids and other parents I have spoken to and met have not been subjected to the horrors you mention and I am sorry it happened to you.  Not all schools are the same and as I have mentioned many times they need to change or they will eventually close down if they use these tactics.

Quote
TSW  Wrote:  When you send your kid to your room do you call it putting him in isolation?

No, This is what they call it here at fornits


Quote
Or do you just say, "GET IN YOUR ROOM TILL YOU MIND YOUR MOUTH!! ETC..."

Exactly, no human rights denied, although if you place a child in a room to mind their mouth it is considered isolation to many here, that is why I refer to it as such.

 
Quote
Do you devise a treatment plan for your kid when they are in their rooms?

Yes, maybe he can still attend parties but may not take the family car until he shows more responsibility.

Quote
Does it have intervention goals and a clear objective to correct anti-social behavior?
Yes, most of the time, if the behavior is really out of hand.  For example:  ?You may take the family car after you have shown you are responsible enough to come home on time for 3 consecutive weekends.  If this rule is broken we may take away the cell phone? (isolation from peers)

Quote
Do you have your children count down while they are on the can?

Actually, I have, but they were very young at the time and we use to follow up with ?Blast off?  !!!  Long story, but definitely not abusive.  It was a lot of fun.  So I guess it is all in how you apply it.

Quote
Do you have a nightly in your back yard so you can help your kids deal with their issues whilst sitting around a campfire?

Not every night, but when we use to go camping we may talk about serious issues once in a while if warranted, but mostly scary stories and such that were more fun.

Very strange questions, TSW.  

Quote
What the fuck is the deal here? Have you The Who been so emasculated as a parent that you can not even function in your role without spewing at them a bunch of program jibberish? For real man its ok to bitch at your kids and not have to call it an attitude correcting opportunity


Okay TSW, not sure where this is coming from, this isn?t my style at all.  You are mixing me up with someone else, I believe.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 08:00:00 AM
One of the problems with this debate is that everyone has had different experiences from different schools.  They are just not all the same !!

Look at the problems at GITMO, young kids locked up for years, desperate to commit suicide etc.  If a person got out of there and went back to their country they would view the US prison system as extremely inhuman because this was their experience and understandably so.  But in reality we all know there are different prisons around the US.  Most have stopped complaining about the treatment because it has improved so much and they are protesting to get more cable channels and have the public pay for sex change operations, go fugure.

So it would be short sighted to view all prisons the same in the US based on ones experience in any one prison, be it GITMO or the federal prison where the CEO?s go for money fraud.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 08:04:00 AM
Pls help -- If you want you can hit the edit button on the post that screwed up (The one that starts with Programs?)and delete the last:

[ /quote ]

This will fix it.

But I just noticed we are on a new page so it doesnt matter much.


[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-20 05:05 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 20, 2006, 08:27:00 AM
done. cheers.  :cool:
Without seeming rude who, You still have not answered my question.
 I will admit that while i was initially quite clueless about what TBS & wilderness therapy was & therefore had an open mind, I am afraid those that espouse it have not done a thing to convince me of what it can do for a kid, but you seem to passionately believe in it as much as most here (now including myself) are horrified by it. But on this thread and on the widerness one you have said that there are may programmes which do not take a punitive approach or the view that the kids have something wrong that needs to be fixed. Which programmes are these exactly?
I also note that you were asked if you put your kids in isolation etc. I thing the big question is do your kids have to "earn" the right to eat whatever they want, get as much exercise as they need or most importantly do they have to "earn" your love..
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 08:48:00 AM
Wilderness Therapy:

 
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Pls Help  Wrote:  None of them said that my "kid" was fine the way they are. Most of them recommended programmes which had some kind of "elements" component??  So if these are the good quality ones, which programmes do take a Genuinely positive approach to the kid? Which ones are about the kid primarily having a great time and perhaps learning a little about themselves along the way?.



Good question,  In the past parents relied on ?Outward bound? type programs which marketed to parents a worldly growing experience and team building that would make the children more social and successful in life etc. Kids would join boy scout and girl scouts which supposedly taught good values and supported proper social behavior.

But things are different today, not as innocent.  Most of the Wilderness programs provide an opportunity for the children to grow and they market to this audience, kids that have gotten off track.  The kids that use to attend these camps are staying home and playing soccer or video games there is just not much interest.

SUWS of the Carolinas was an excellent experience for, at least the group that I was involved with.  Some kids were really struggling with home issues and others just had a good time and one kid wanted to go back thru again.  But back to your point, this is way too expensive for the average family to send their kid away for just a few weeks of fun.  There are many trips that kids can go on throughout South America, Chile etc, which is fun ,I think there is a place located in Vermont which takes kids to travel, I will see if I can get their name.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 09:17:00 AM
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Pls Help wrote:
Without seeming rude who, You still have not answered my question.
I will admit that while i was initially quite clueless about what TBS & wilderness therapy was & therefore had an open mind, I am afraid those that espouse it have not done a thing to convince me of what it can do for a kid, but you seem to passionately believe in it as much as most here (now including myself) are horrified by it.

By reading about programs and how they work you will not get a sense for them being positive.  The element that is missing is need.  If you had a child at risk that needed intervention and help to get back on track you may start to see the benefits that some of these programs can provide.  Sort of like a horse to a city person, they see the expense, smell and space they take up (not much value there) maintenance etc. could not convince them that the horse adds value.  You take this same person and place them in a field and ask them to grow food, the horse becomes his number one asset and is your ticket to plowing.



 
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But on this thread and on the widerness one you have said that there are may programmes which do not take a punitive approach or the view that the kids have something wrong that needs to be fixed. Which programmes are these exactly?

ASR, SUWS programs seem to be effective for some kids.


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I also note that you were asked if you put your kids in isolation etc. I thing the big question is do your kids have to "earn" the right to eat whatever they want, get as much exercise as they need or most importantly do they have to "earn" your love..


Yes, I think we all earn what we get.  When the kids are young and they eat their dinner they get a nice dessert or treat afterwards.  Not sure about exercise, if you live on a farm it is sort of built into your daily routine, you don?t find many treadmills there.  If you live in an apartment you may and one can always do pushups or jog in place (that is what I use to do on rainy days in college.)
Love is something that just comes naturally, in my opinion, spending time with each other, respecting and growing together as a family.  Love is its own reward.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 09:35:00 AM
***By reading about programs and how they work you will not get a sense for them being positive. The element that is missing is need. If you had a child at risk that needed intervention and help to get back on track you may start to see the benefits that some of these programs can provide. Sort of like a horse to a city person, they see the expense, smell and space they take up (not much value there) maintenance etc. could not convince them that the horse adds value. You take this same person and place them in a field and ask them to grow food, the horse becomes his number one asset and is your ticket to plowing****

I fail to see how any of these analogies have anything to do with the rampant abuse perpetuated in the name of progress at treatment programs. Children are not horses and the overall level of benifits provided by programs are at best dubious and minute.

***ASR, SUWS programs seem to be effective for some kids.***

You confirm my own suspicion that Suws and ASR SEEM to be effective for some kids. EVERY single one of the kids I encountered from SUWS in Three Springs was a problematic hell raisers of the worst order. I have no knowledge of ASR but judging from the snow job they have pulled on you I doubt I even want to know much.

SUWS is a low success program that blatantly uses fraud to dupe stupid parents into blowing thousands of dollars on their hokey little version of therapy.

ASR will likewise prove to be a fraud. Given a bit of time the truth that has already come out about that miserable sham of a pit will soon be common knowledge. ASR will join the ranks of TB and other sick organizations with their noteriety.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 10:11:00 AM
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I fail to see how any of these analogies have anything to do with the rampant abuse perpetuated in the name of progress at treatment programs. Children are not horses and the overall level of benifits provided by programs are at best dubious and minute.

The analogy wasn?t intended to address the problems of abuse, this wasn?t being discussed, it was to demonstrate ?Need? and ?Value?.  The person living in the city did not see the value of owning a horse until there was a need.  This was used to show that the average person would not see any value in placing their children in a program until there was a demonstrated or apparent need.  Horses and children were not compared.  The horses were compared to TBS?s

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You confirm my own suspicion that Suws and ASR SEEM to be effective for some kids. EVERY single one of the kids I encountered from SUWS in Three Springs was a problematic hell raisers of the worst order. I have no knowledge of ASR but judging from the snow job they have pulled on you I doubt I even want to know much.

Not seem,  they are effective and hopefully will continue to improve.  I have met many ?Problematic hell raisers of the worst order? who never even heard of SUWS, they are everywhere.  Raising hell can be a good thing, TSW, Wilderness programs are not for everyone and are not effective with all kids.  We need more kids who are willing to raise hell, make a difference, change the laws, find a cure for cancer etc.  This is a good thing !!

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SUWS is a low success program that blatantly uses fraud to dupe stupid parents into blowing thousands of dollars on their hokey little version of therapy.

ASR will likewise prove to be a fraud. Given a bit of time the truth that has already come out about that miserable sham of a pit will soon be common knowledge. ASR will join the ranks of TB and other sick organizations with their noteriety.


Well, that?s the good thing about open debate; we can all voice our opinions.  We can go back and forth all day, but, the proof is in the kids and how well they get back on track and move on with their lives, which, to date, has been extremely well.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 20, 2006, 10:24:00 AM
How are you involved with these programs now?

Do you refer parents to programs now?

Are you an Ed Con?

Do you have a relationship with Sue Scheff?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
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How are you involved with these programs now?

I am not actively involved with any specific program .

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Do you refer parents to programs now?

If you mean do I get paid, no

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Are you an Ed Con?

No

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Do you have a relationship with Sue Scheff?


No, I don?t.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 11:12:00 AM
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TSW  Wrote:  When you send your kid to your room do you call it putting him in isolation?



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The Who:  No, This is what they call it here at fornits


That's such bullshit.  Dont' exaggerate Who.  You know exactly what we mean.  Nobody here calls sending a kid to their room isolation.  There is a HUGE difference between the type of discipline that TSW and Deborah were talking about and the kind of shit that goes on in those hellholes.





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TSW: Or do you just say, "GET IN YOUR ROOM TILL YOU MIND YOUR MOUTH!! ETC..."



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The Who: Exactly, no human rights denied, although if you place a child in a room to mind their mouth it is considered isolation to many here, that is why I refer to it as such.

See above answer.





 
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TSW: Do you devise a treatment plan for your kid when they are in their rooms?



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The Who: Yes, maybe he can still attend parties but may not take the family car until he shows more responsibility.



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TSW: Does it have intervention goals and a clear objective to correct anti-social behavior?

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The Who: Yes, most of the time, if the behavior is really out of hand.

Again, I think most parents that end up sending their kid have bought hook, line and sinker into this pathological mentality.  Not to mention that in a program the kids are subjected to the whims of the staff.  Said staff has absolute power and control over the kids.   Pleasing staff and pleasing parents are two very different things.



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TSW: Do you have your children count down while they are on the can?



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The Who: Actually, I have, but they were very young at the time and we use to follow up with ?Blast off?  !!!  Long story, but definitely not abusive.  It was a lot of fun.  So I guess it is all in how you apply it.

Again, don't make light of the situation.  You know very well what we mean.  YOu most certainly do NOT give your kid 30 seconds on the toilet.  YOu do NOT count down while watching her shit and threaten to yank her off if she's not done in time.




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TSW: Do you have a nightly in your back yard so you can help your kids deal with their issues whilst sitting around a campfire?



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The Who: Not every night, but when we use to go camping we may talk about serious issues once in a while if warranted, but mostly scary stories and such that were more fun.


Are the expected to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to the "group" only to have those secrets used against her later in her program?  No?  Yeah, didn't think so.  Don't be an asshole.  YOu know goddman good and well what we're talking about.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
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Again, don't make light of the situation. You know very well what we mean. YOu most certainly do NOT give your kid 30 seconds on the toilet. YOu do NOT count down while watching her shit and threaten to yank her off if she's not done in time

No I don?t know that you meant that !!  You attended a program that I am not familiar with, if they did that then that is wrong.  I guess we need to be specific on what school you are talking about and the time frame.  That just isn?t normal.


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Are the expected to confess their deepest, darkest secrets to the "group" only to have those secrets used against her later in her program? No? Yeah, didn't think so. Don't be an asshole. YOu know goddman good and well what we're talking about..


Well, I think if you read back you will see what I am talking about.  You are applying one situation/experience to all programs.  If I told you a friend of mine came out of a program?.. started his own business and is doing well, could we conclude that all programs are 100% effective and good for every child that goes there?  Does every kid that does not attend a program do well,  is the suicide rate at 0% for those who do not attend a program?
Each event is separate and independent, if you had a bad experience we should try to expose it, correct it and improve it for the next generation of kids.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 11:49:00 AM
To Mr. Who,

Were you EVER "actively involved" in a program?  If so, which one?

Did you EVER get paid to refer kids to programs?

Were you EVER an ED-Con, worked with one or anyone in that field?

Did you EVER have a relationship with Sue Sheff?

Did you EVER send a child of yours to a program, if so, which one and what do you think of it?

Thanks
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 11:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-20 08:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

, if you had a bad experience we should try to expose it, correct it and improve it for the next generation of kids.

"


That's what you're not getting!  There IS no improving it.  It's a flawed concept from the get go.  Isolation (from society as a whole, extended family, close friends) is not therapeutic.  Levels, seminars, etc. are not therapeutic and have a huge potential for abuse given the absolute power the staff weilds over those kids (see Stanford Prison Study).  Plus the fact that virtually every program that opens up uses some form of "we're the better program", "we're not like those places".  Look at the paper trail of places that have been closed down for abuse.  You'll find that most of the staff just disperses into the industry, change a few names, puts a fresh coat of paint on it and starts back up again.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 12:19:00 PM
To Mr. Who,

Quote
Were you EVER "actively involved" in a program? If so, which one?
No, I wasnt

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Did you EVER get paid to refer kids to programs?
No

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Were you EVER an ED-Con, worked with one or anyone in that field?
No

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Did you EVER have a relationship with Sue Sheff?
No

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Did you EVER send a child of yours to a program, if so, which one and what do you think of it?
Yes, ASR.  It is and was an evolving program which focus?s on building a childs self esteem, self discipline, gets them back to academics , if needed etc.  They provided a safe environment for my daughter to grow and mature and start to focus on her own needs and what was healthy for her future path.  The transition back home was tough for her coming out of what the kids referred to as ?The bubble? (a safe place).  She initially tried to catch up on everything that she missed out on (i.e. drinking and smoking etc.) and I was a little worried at first that she would go down hill.  But we had developed a great communication during her stay at ASR and our participation as parents that we were able to talk things through and set boundaries and expectations for the entire family.  The tools that she gathered during her stay there helped her to stay focused on what was healthy for her and eventually took control of her own life and is doing well.  I was told that ASR has addressed the transitional concerns that some of us parents had and that it is smoother now.  The school continues to grow and change with the needs of the children.


She also attended SUWS of the Carolinas which was a great experience for her.  If we had taken before and after pictures that would have provided proof enough of its effectiveness !!  She was so happy and healthy when we meet her on the trail on the last day.  We went back to our individual camp sites (lean to) and was able to take care of us for the night, started the fire (no matches) cooked us dinner (lentils, rice and garlic), I think she enjoyed seeing me struggle to force the food down, she knows how much I hated to eat lentils, I was looking around for a steak to throw on, then we had to sleep on the cold ground all night on some sleeping apparel she made for us.  It was a sleepless night, I guess she got the last laugh and was enjoying every minute, especially when she had to wake me up (which was a switch) to go for a hike and had to wait an hour to get to a bathroom.

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Thanks


Your welcome.

[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-20 09:39 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 12:34:00 PM
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That's what you're not getting! There IS no improving it. It's a flawed concept from the get go. Isolation (from society as a whole, extended family, close friends) is not therapeutic. Levels, seminars, etc. are not therapeutic and have a huge potential for abuse given the absolute power the staff weilds over those kids (see Stanford Prison Study).

Sending a kid to summer camp is isolation also by your definition or detention at school (they are not allowed to go home on the bus, isolated from their friends)

The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.  Yes, there is always the potential for abuse.

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Plus the fact that virtually every program that opens up uses some form of "we're the better program", "we're not like those places".

Of course, they have to try to get a strong foothold in the industry, especially if a program is starting out.  Look at the cell phone industry, very cut throat?.which has the most minutes, text messaging, latest technology.  If you want to be successful one must show you are better than the other schools.  This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.


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Look at the paper trail of places that have been closed down for abuse. You'll find that most of the staff just disperses into the industry, change a few names, puts a fresh coat of paint on it and starts back up again.


This may be true, but I am sure if they are smart they will improve and not get shut down again, competition can be merciless and they will not succeed unless they change and keep up.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Troll Control on June 20, 2006, 01:46:00 PM
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The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.


you are a fucking blatant liar.  you just make up your answers and have no facts to support them.  show the EVIDENCE that this environment is therapeutic.  the "mental health field" disagrees with YOU on this issue.  there are plenty of studies, position statements and guidelines that RULE OUT these types of facilities.  you are an unbelieveable know-nothing liar.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 02:28:00 PM
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On 2006-06-20 09:34:00, TheWho wrote:


Sending a kid to summer camp is isolation also by your definition or detention at school (they are not allowed to go home on the bus, isolated from their friends)

Bullshit and you know it.  This is what pisses me off about you.  Of course I don't consider regular summer camp or detention isolation.  Kids at summer camp can write to their friends and family without having their correspondence monitored and censored.


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The mental health field disagrees with you, top therapists are recommending these TBS to many children every day, to the contrary it is very therapeutic.

Here we agree to a certain extent but I see it as a problem and you don't.  Yes, this "therapeutic community" approach is pervasive in the mental health field.  That's one of the major problems we have in getting the word out about how much damage can be and is done.  This has become so accepted since it's inception way back in the 70s (see Synanon and Chuch Deitrich, sp?).  That's where the TC mothodology began, from a known cult!!!


 
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Yes, there is always the potential for abuse.

But this industry seems to attract and breed those who enjoy the control and complete domination.  Again, see Stanford Prison Study.

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Of course, they have to try to get a strong foothold in the industry, especially if a program is starting out.  Look at the cell phone industry, very cut throat?.which has the most minutes, text messaging, latest technology.

I don't even know how to respond to someone who would seriously try and compare the cell phone industry to the teen "help" industry.

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This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.

In theory that would be great but it doesn't work that way.  And again, it's a flawed concept from the start.  There is no improving on something that is fundamentally flawed.

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This may be true, but I am sure if they are smart they will improve and not get shut down again, competition can be merciless and they will not succeed unless they change and keep up.

"


Wrong.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 20, 2006, 02:47:00 PM
Families arrive at the Academy at Swift River so ready to get their unruly child out of the house that few ask for statistics demonstrating a successful track record.

Good thing. The school, located in a former dairy, is run by a for-profit company and DOES NOT COMPILE SUCH FIGURES.

They cry. They curse. They conspire to run away. They disclose secrets about abuses suffered. One day, a student has an apparent breakthrough in therapy. Soon after, she's having sex with a classmate in the bathroom.

One unorthodox punishment is to withhold spices ? INCLUDING SALT ? from students' food.

Swift River revolves around ritual, yet the staff struggles, and sometimes fails, to keep order. The intensity of the work leads to burnout. One beloved teacher is later spotted by a former student working in a New York deli.

Marcus shows how out-of-control teenagers have spawned a lucrative industry. Consultants advise parents on the best therapeutic boarding schools. Psychologists apply labels. Drug companies keep the pills coming.

The only misfit in this well-crafted book is the title: It's unclear what it takes to pull these kids through. Counselors acknowledge some would outgrow their problems without Swift River. And one kid who absorbs all the nurturing Swift River can provide still ends up dead of an overdose.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... teens.html (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050227/news_lz1v27teens.html)

Any news articles on this death?

Inquiring minds want to know....

Where are the stats that might show a successful track record? Deaths? Injuries? Assaults? PTSD?
Why do they not compile such data?

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 11:59 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on June 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM
***If you want to be successful one must show you are better than the other schools. This is extremely healthy for the industry because the schools which don?t keep up and are abusive will dry-up and close and the newer schools will incorporate all the latest studies and models that are working.

There is nothing in the 30-some year history of the industry to indicate that this is true or accurate.

Do you have any idea how many have been shut down and reopened under a new name? And as someone else noted, staff just cycle through the industry from program to program.

Can you give us even one example of the latest studies and models for BM warehouses, that any program is currently utilizing?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 03:11:00 PM
Thanks Deborah, I had this link and lost it.  For those of you who are not familiar, these (Deborah?s post above)  are reviews and snippets from an author who spent time at ASR and wrote a book about his experiences there.
A little snippet from the same article:
David L. Marcus, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and contributing editor for U.S. News & World Report, spent more than a year inside the Academy at Swift River, known to some as the Princeton of "therapeutic" boarding schools.
In "What It Takes to Pull Me Through," Marcus focuses on four kids who are part of Group 23, a class that endures 14 months at Swift River.
Swift River promises no magic solutions. The curriculum, heavy on Walden Pond nature-loving, involves a lot of journal writing.
And yet, it's difficult to fault the parents??.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 03:42:00 PM
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Deborah Wrote:
Any news articles on this death?

You know actually, I don?t and I don?t believe there was much if anything.  The parents wrote a really nice letter back to ASR that I had the privilege to read and ASR let people know through their news letter to inform parents and alumni who knew him.  It is sad that not all the kids can be saved and it really hits the kids hard when something like that happens.

Quote
Inquiring minds want to know....

Where are the stats that might show a successful track record? Deaths? Injuries? Assaults? PTSD?
Why do they not compile such data?


I really don?t know.  Talking with many kids who were working on getting into college, at the time, they seem to just want to put their time at ASR behind them.  If it was a regular boarding school it would be one thing, but it is a TBS for troubled teens and if you say you attended the kids feel they need to explain to everyone (every time, because they are curious) Why did you have to go there?  Many view it as a ?Speed bump? in their travels thru life and isn?t a highlight of any of their conversations, even though it had helped them to get back on track.  
Maybe some of you who have attended will understand, and this is why there is not much data compiled on the graduates.  I see the same thing here on fornits it is difficult to compile data on those who have moved on because ?They moved on?, I imagine.  It would be helpful to have better access to statistics, though, I agree.

Hope this helps.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
Quote

<.
<
One unorthodox punishment is to withhold spices ? INCLUDING SALT ? from students' food.


<]

Salt is not a spice; it is a vital part of one's electrolyte balance.  Without a sufficient amount one goes into shock, the heart stops beating and one dies.  Withholding salt is a potential act of homocide depending on whether or not there is sufficient salt in the rest of the diet.  BTW electrolyte imbalance is what cause many runners to collapse at the finish line and die even though they have kept hydrated throughout the race.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 20, 2006, 04:18:00 PM
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On 2006-06-20 13:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

<.

<
One unorthodox punishment is to withhold spices ? INCLUDING SALT ? from students' food.




<]



Salt is not a spice; it is a vital part of one's electrolyte balance.  Without a sufficient amount one goes into shock, the heart stops beating and one dies.  Withholding salt is a potential act of homocide depending on whether or not there is sufficient salt in the rest of the diet.  BTW electrolyte imbalance is what cause many runners to collapse at the finish line and die even though they have kept hydrated throughout the race."


I know someone who never used a salt shaker or put salt on their food and is still alive today.  They are almost 30.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
THERE'S SALT IN MY FUCKING CUM, BITCH!!!!!!  :flame:  :flame:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
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On 2006-06-20 13:04:00, Anonymous wrote:


Salt is not a spice; it is a vital part of one's electrolyte balance.  Without a sufficient amount one goes into shock, the heart stops beating and one dies.  Withholding salt is a potential act of homocide depending on whether or not there is sufficient salt in the rest of the diet.  BTW electrolyte imbalance is what cause many runners to collapse at the finish line and die even though they have kept hydrated throughout the race."


No need to take things to extremes.  That's how THEY operate.  No one is claiming that withholding salt killed a kid.  It was said to show how far to the extremes that these places go with control and withholding food as punishment.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-20 13:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"THERE'S SALT IN MY FUCKING CUM, BITCH!!!!!!  :flame:  :flame: "

You can eat the CORN outta my shit...  :rofl:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:27:00 PM
Wait'll I find you, fucker you are SOOOO gonna die!!!!!  :skull:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 04:30:00 PM
Here, have some fucking SALT...  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 10:22:00 PM
If the parents can afford to send them to these over-priced factories then they can afford to take a couple of months off and take the kid on a month long road trip or go work with Habitat for Humanity for a few weeks.  Rent a cabin on a lake for a month.  Send them to live with a close relative out of state.  Anything but these places.



And again, the percentage of kids who actually need to be forcibly removed from the home is exceedingly low, IMO."
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 20, 2006, 10:42:00 PM
I know someone who never used a salt shaker or put salt on their food and is still alive today.  They are almost 30."
[/quote]

Then obviously there was sufficient salt in the diet.  I don't put salt on my food either and I am still alive.  I also don't march in 100 degree weather, sweat it all out and die of heat stroke which can also be caused by not enough salt which is why hikers carry salt pills and why cows have salt licks.  It is an important mineral.  If there is enough salt in the diet then you don't need to salt the food.  But if you are denied enough of the right kind of food AND denied salt after a period of time your electrolytes become imbalanced and you can die.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 21, 2006, 12:16:00 AM
sending a kid to summer camp is isolation also by your definition or detention at school (they are not allowed to go home on the bus, isolated from their friends)

I think we both know Who that there is an enormous difference to sending a kid to a summer camp that is non punitive & sending a kid getting detention at school. I spent the last 3 years of my highschool education as a boarder both here & on exchange in the US.

Firstly A kid at summer camp or regular boarding school can write to whoever they damn well want. When I worked at a summer camp i dont ever recall any staff wanting to read a kids letter home & change any of the content. I also don't know of a summer camp which starts with the premise that kids have to go through levels or "phases" as SUWS calls them, to earn preiveliges. The kids all got the same things provided and then if there was some infringement it would be dealt with as a once off and penalised accordingly.

 Detention at school lasts an hour! Isolation lasts as long as the audlts in charge want to make it because a kid in the middle of nowhere cant exactly tell anyone. Also I dont believe i know of a mainstream school that has detention involving lack of family contact over major holidays like christmas, or that haules kids out  the education system to hike for 3 months.

Also i am sure that there are reputable therapists that recommend TBS and wilderness schools. I am sure that they are very well paid as well! This to me does not make it OK. I think that if these programmes were not allowed to exist, American parents, even those facing extremely difficult issues with their kids would have to do what people in other westerrn countries do because it would not the an option. To me it is an issue of cultrual change. If American kids are statistically no worse than their foreign peers or less mentally healthy, then why should this even be an option for their parents?
 
Moreover if these places are not primarily about the bottom line then why would the major palyers in the industry not be 100 % in favour of strict regulation of it? The kids that they are "saving" would be in safer hands.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 03:32:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 18:10:00, Anonymous wrote:


But why institutionalise kids to keep them safe? no other western country does this to teenagers! There are hundreds of other options for normal adolescent issues? Even if a place does not aduse per se & I dont know if they all do, almost all of them advertise that the kid has to 'earn priveliges" and that among the issues they deal with are defiance, self esteem and the prennial favourite "manipulation". How does sending kids away with the message that they are either not good enough or they are "mentally ill" help them. What does it keep them safe from?

Normal boarding schools do not use contact with the parent as either a reward, a punishment or therapy because they do not assume that they have more authority than the kid's family. They certainly dont keep kids there over summer and christmas because it is not seen as their role.For me the question is not wheter TBS and wilderness therapy is abvusive or not (this is a linked sideline issue) the question is why anyone would think a kid is better off with stangers as their only parental figures and why the mentality of the industry is so bloddy spiteful."


 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 21, 2006, 04:02:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: Pls help on 2006-06-21 01:04 ]
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 21, 2006, 08:18:00 AM
Quote
Pls Help Wrote:
Also i am sure that there are reputable therapists that recommend TBS and wilderness schools. I am sure that they are very well paid as well! This to me does not make it OK.


This makes no sense to me, I hear this over and over again about people getting paid and how much parents have to pay like this is suppose to make it bad.   This why there is little credibility with most peoples arguments here on fornits.  I have debated about isolation to the point where any kid who did not have 24/7 access to their friends and parents was considered in isolation.  (You cant call you friends and parents at most summer/ boy scout camps anytime you want, many households don?t let you call your friends at any hour).
If a Book is written which shows the industry in a different light than people here would like then they are doing it for profit, but books like the one Maia Szalavitzs wrote is considered not for profit.  If a group of therapists say the schools are not good for children they are portrayed as understanding the industry.    If other therapists recommend a child go to a TBS then they are doing it for profit.  Stories of abuse by counselors get accepted, unchecked, unchallenged.  Kids who do well are met with,? well wait a few years your opinion will change?.There is so much pressure to show any facet of the industry in a bad light, here, that any reasonable reader is forced to take the accounts and stories with a grain of salt.  How can fornits expect the readers to believe that the stories and accounts are not biased when all neutral data is seen in a bias or double standard?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Oz girl on June 21, 2006, 10:03:00 AM
well firstly i am not fornits, I am a single person!
Secondly, if you are going to be involved in a for profit industry which is primarily about the welfare and safety of minors, then it is a legitimate expeactation that you
be held accountable to an independent body like a regulator.
thirdly if you are going to actively discourage children from speaking to their legal guardians then it is reasonalbe that you can answer why this is so because you should have absolutely nothing to hide about the kids treatment. Moreover if there is profit to be made from keeping a kid for longer than initially thought, especially when a kid's symptoms were issues as vague as "disprespect" then it is only fair that you are answerable.
I am also beginning to feel that my words are now delieberately twisted. Never did i say programmes which dont give kids 24 hour access to family and friends are abusive! Monitored mail or phone calls, however are suspicious and unreasonable. Normal schools and summer camps do not indulkge in this practice.Firstly most camps only go for a month or so at a maximum so the kids is home before too long and secondly mail regularly goes in and out unmonitored. Schools that involve kids bing there for longer than just a few weeks, usually let kids call home without a "therapist" standing over them on some kind of regular basis. This is because tthey do not really have anything to hide and can show parents the results that their money is buying.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 10:38:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 05:18:00, TheWho wrote:

I have debated about isolation to the point where any kid who did not have 24/7 access to their friends and parents was considered in isolation.  (You cant call you friends and parents at most summer/ boy scout camps anytime you want, many households don?t let you call your friends at any hour).
<


This is not true at all.  This is why I can't take you seriously.  You know very well there is a big difference between the two.  Summer camp kids write home to their friends and family all the time.  My kids would write me and tell me how homesick they were at first, how they hated the place, the kids were mean, the counselors were mean etc.  Every bit of that got through to me.  That would not be so in a TBS/RTC etc.  They wrote to their friends often.  There was no "approving" friends that they could communicate with.  They wrote to whoever they wanted to.  The counselors would collect the mail and deposit them in the mailbox for the kids.  They did not read any of the letters.  

True that they didn't have constant access to a phone but they could call if they really wanted or needed to.  My youngest had a hard time the first time being away and called me 3 times the first week because she was so homesick.  It was out of the ordinary but the counselors saw how homesick she was and made arrangements for her to call.  

The kind of isolation that takes place in the RTC/TBS extreme.  No contact with anyone not approved by the staff.  Virtually no contact with anyone on the outside world at all.  Combine that with the extremem pressure of LGATS and the like and it's nothing but behavior modification and mind control.  They have no frame of reference anymore as to what's normal and what's not.  They begin to accept these methods as valid because there is no one around to acknowledge or validate that gnawing feeling that this whole thing is really, really wrong.  There is no way in hell any rational, thinking person can even think about comparing a regular summer camp to these places.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Troll Control on June 21, 2006, 10:45:00 AM
Quote
There is no way in hell any rational, thinking person can even think about comparing a regular summer camp to these places.


This is the sticky wicket, isn't it?

You're talking about a guy who compares Rudy Bentz and Tim Brace to Ben Franklin and Bill Gates and licenses to practice therapy or teach to driver's licenses.

You're not dealing with a rational human being here.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 21, 2006, 11:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 07:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-21 05:18:00, TheWho wrote:


I have debated about isolation to the point where any kid who did not have 24/7 access to their friends and parents was considered in isolation.  (You cant call you friends and parents at most summer/ boy scout camps anytime you want, many households don?t let you call your friends at any hour).

<



This is not true at all.  This is why I can't take you seriously.  You know very well there is a big difference between the two.  Summer camp kids write home to their friends and family all the time.  My kids would write me and tell me how homesick they were at first, how they hated the place, the kids were mean, the counselors were mean etc.  Every bit of that got through to me.  That would not be so in a TBS/RTC etc.  They wrote to their friends often.  There was no "approving" friends that they could communicate with.  They wrote to whoever they wanted to.  The counselors would collect the mail and deposit them in the mailbox for the kids.  They did not read any of the letters.  



True that they didn't have constant access to a phone but they could call if they really wanted or needed to.  My youngest had a hard time the first time being away and called me 3 times the first week because she was so homesick.  It was out of the ordinary but the counselors saw how homesick she was and made arrangements for her to call.  



The kind of isolation that takes place in the RTC/TBS extreme.  No contact with anyone not approved by the staff.  Virtually no contact with anyone on the outside world at all.  Combine that with the extremem pressure of LGATS and the like and it's nothing but behavior modification and mind control.  They have no frame of reference anymore as to what's normal and what's not.  They begin to accept these methods as valid because there is no one around to acknowledge or validate that gnawing feeling that this whole thing is really, really wrong.  There is no way in hell any rational, thinking person can even think about comparing a regular summer camp to these places."


Yes you obviously have experience with a different place than I did.  My Daughter wanted to call me because she was anxious and the counselor allowed her to call.  There was no isolation.  If a kid was out on a boy scout trip or rafting trip they may not be able to just call when ever they want.  You have 25 kids all wanting to call their friends and family 3 times a day, no, they tell the kids no phone calls unless it is an emergency, period.  The place my daughter attended had no fences, she could walk away anytime she wanted.  
I did debate someone, Nile,who posts here once in awhile, who debated me to the point where he considered isolation was not having 24/7 access to a phone and just the shear distance between the kids and their parents.  He was determined to prove my daughter was the victim of isolation, when it just wasn?t true.  Based on that definition, this would be the same as Boy Scout camp.  I am not implying that the whole school can be compared to it, just the distance aspect and access to phones.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Fire Swamp on June 21, 2006, 11:28:00 AM
So in your estimation The Who is a harebrain...a screwball...fruitcake..etc.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Fire Swamp on June 21, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
Quote
You're not dealing with a rational human being here.

So in your estimation TheWho is a harebrain...a screwball...fruitcake..etc.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 11:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 08:20:00, TheWho wrote:


I did debate someone, Nile,who posts here once in awhile, who debated me to the point where he considered isolation was not having 24/7 access to a phone and just the shear distance between the kids and their parents.  He was determined to prove my daughter was the victim of isolation, when it just wasn?t true.  Based on that definition, this would be the same as Boy Scout camp.  I am not implying that the whole school can be compared to it, just the distance aspect and access to phones.

"


That was him.  He is not Fornits.  I was very clear in my distinction.  I never claimed that summer camp was isolation.  Deal with him when you're talking to him and me when you're talking to me.

Do you believe that regular summer camp and RTC/TBS etc. are the same?  Do you believe they follow the same standards for the same reasons?  Agreed that kids at summer camp don't have access to a phone 24/7 but it's for a very different reason than the kids in a TBS.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 21, 2006, 11:56:00 AM
Quote
That was him. He is not Fornits. I was very clear in my distinction. I never claimed that summer camp was isolation. Deal with him when you're talking to him and me when you're talking to me.
I was explaining why I made the analogy.  You must be new, people talk in generalizations here, all programmies are alike, all RTC?s are the same etc.  I guess I am not use to talking with someone who doesn?t generalize, this is refreshing.

Quote
Do you believe that regular summer camp and RTC/TBS etc. are the same?

No, not on every level.

 
Quote
Do you believe they follow the same standards for the same reasons?

No, not exactly


Quote
Agreed that kids at summer camp don't have access to a phone 24/7 but it's for a very different reason than the kids in a TBS.


I think some of the reasons are similar.  Any environment where there are large groups of teenagers there is an effort to try to limit their use, public schools, church groups, summer camp, schools.  Kids would never get anything done or be able to keep their attention.  Now at TBS? they have the same reasons and then more.  kids are their for various reasons and access to certain people may not be healthy for them i.e. those that abused them, drug dealers, people who could trigger a setback etc. So for them they need to be protected from some outside influences which could be harmful.  So they are different in that respect.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 08:56:00, TheWho wrote:

 You must be new, people talk in generalizations here, all programmies are alike, all RTC?s are the same etc.  I guess I am not use to talking with someone who doesn?t generalize, this is refreshing.


I've been around here a lot longer than you have.  Stop making assumptions.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: TheWho on June 21, 2006, 12:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-21 09:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-06-21 08:56:00, TheWho wrote:


 You must be new, people talk in generalizations here, all programmies are alike, all RTC?s are the same etc.  I guess I am not use to talking with someone who doesn?t generalize, this is refreshing.



I've been around here a lot longer than you have.  Stop making assumptions.  "


Ah, touché.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on December 11, 2007, 10:24:18 PM
The Southard re-open under new license

Dec. 10, 2007, 12:11PM
Case sparks new look at youth camp licenses
Couple still in business after being made to close site where two died

By TERRI LANGFORD
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

The relocation of a summer camp for learning disabled children in the Hill Country has social services officials examining the state's one-size-fits-all license for youth camps in Texas.

In 2006, Rand and Colleen Southard, the owners of the Charis Hills summer camp, were stripped of their state license for another facility, the Star Ranch residential treatment center in Kerr County, after two Texas foster care children died there.

But they continued to operate - without incident or complaint since 1999 - Charis Hills, their summer camp for learning disabled children under a youth camp license issued by the Texas Department of State Health Services.

A spokesman for the Southards says the operations are different, so the licenses that govern them should be different, and losing one at one facility shouldn't reflect badly on the record of another.

"This is a different population than the Star Ranch kids," said Dave Vinyard, a Charis Hills board member and spokesman for the camp. "The kids coming to Charis Hills are there because their parents want them there."

But the state's not so sure after questions were raised about whether one social service agency can allow a group to operate a children's facility if a sister agency has barred the same agency from caring for state foster children.

"This situation has made us aware of a serious gap in how we license camps," said Albert Hawkins, Texas Health and Human Services' executive commissioner. There are 538 youth camps in the state and all adhere to the same Texas state health department sanitation and safety standards, even those facilities with campers who have special needs or those operated by owners who have had a license revoked by any other state agency.

Like Woodside Trails/Eagle Pines Academy.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=296292#296292 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=296292#296292)

A youth camp in Texas is any facility or property that is used primarily for recreational, athletic, religious or educational activities and accommodates at least five minors who attend or reside there for the better part of four days.

Questions about relocation
The licensing issue surfaced this fall with the relocation of Charis Hills from the Kerr County town of Ingram, to the Llano County hamlet of Castell, about 88 miles west of Austin.

The Southards sold the Ingram property and began looking for land close to Kerr County that had access to water.

When they came upon 43 acres near Castell, they bought it and have begun clearing land to make way for camp facilities to house about 150 children with learning disabilities such as Asperger syndrome or attention-deficit disorder.

Along the Llano River, Charis Hills' new neighbors are puzzled that the camp owners would choose such a remote place, considering there is one narrow road in and out. They're concerned about the traffic the facility would bring.

The chief question residents have raised, though, is the one the state is now considering: whether there is a lack of consistency about how children's facilities are licensed. While Charis Hills has a camp license for the Ingram property, the company will have to apply for another one after the new camp near Castell is built.

"I want to know - my mom wants to know - why, when the state of Texas will not let him care for their children, why will they give him a license to care for my children?" said Cindy Yeager, whose family land near Castell will be some of the closest to the Charis Hills camp. "Why does the state of Texas think that if the Southards are supervised any less that they're going to care for children any better?"

Two deaths
The Star Ranch residential treatment center for troubled, abused foster children was stripped of its license by the state health department's sister agency, the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services in 2006.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=201577#201577 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=201577#201577)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=157678#157678 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=157678#157678)

The decision was made after two children died within six months of each other. The first died while being restrained from banging his head on the floor. The second child died during a bike outing along a rain-swollen creek. The child got off his bike and was swept into the creek.

The license revocation bars the Southards from seeking another DFPS license until 2011, but it does not keep them from operating another facility for children under a different type of state license.

And there's nothing wrong with that, Vinyard said.

"If what we're doing on the property in Castell is legal and appropriate in Llano County and the state of Texas ... and if we have the state health licensing to operate a facility, and the parents of these children choose to send them to Charis Hills, whose business is that?" he said. "It's a private camp. It's private property."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 64435.html (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5364435.html)


Charis Hills website
http://www.charishills.org/index.html (http://www.charishills.org/index.html)

Counselor requirements
http://www.charishills.org/counselors_whatittakes.htm (http://www.charishills.org/counselors_whatittakes.htm)
http://www.charishills.org/counselors_positions.htm (http://www.charishills.org/counselors_positions.htm)

No formal training necessary. The mission:
We teach children about Christ because that is our mission.  We believe that if a child can understand who Christ is, his or her life can be changed through that understanding. We also believe that most of our daily problems can be overcome through an understanding of the Bible and that understanding is sufficient for a successful life.

Texas Department of Health – Licensed as a Summer Camp
Charis Hills meets all criteria and standards set forward by the Texas Department of Health.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Che Gookin on December 11, 2007, 10:41:36 PM
Around and around we go where we stop nobody knows!


*not to self.. put above new shitpit on visit list for 2009.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2007, 10:44:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote

On 2006-06-21 05:18:00, TheWho wrote:


I have debated about isolation to the point where any kid who did not have 24/7 access to their friends and parents was considered in isolation.  (You cant call you friends and parents at most summer/ boy scout camps anytime you want, many households don?t let you call your friends at any hour).

<



This is not true at all.  This is why I can't take you seriously.  You know very well there is a big difference between the two.  Summer camp kids write home to their friends and family all the time.  My kids would write me and tell me how homesick they were at first, how they hated the place, the kids were mean, the counselors were mean etc.  Every bit of that got through to me.  That would not be so in a TBS/RTC etc.  They wrote to their friends often.  There was no "approving" friends that they could communicate with.  They wrote to whoever they wanted to.  The counselors would collect the mail and deposit them in the mailbox for the kids.  They did not read any of the letters.  



True that they didn't have constant access to a phone but they could call if they really wanted or needed to.  My youngest had a hard time the first time being away and called me 3 times the first week because she was so homesick.  It was out of the ordinary but the counselors saw how homesick she was and made arrangements for her to call.  



The kind of isolation that takes place in the RTC/TBS extreme.  No contact with anyone not approved by the staff.  Virtually no contact with anyone on the outside world at all.  Combine that with the extremem pressure of LGATS and the like and it's nothing but behavior modification and mind control.  They have no frame of reference anymore as to what's normal and what's not.  They begin to accept these methods as valid because there is no one around to acknowledge or validate that gnawing feeling that this whole thing is really, really wrong.  There is no way in hell any rational, thinking person can even think about comparing a regular summer camp to these places.


When you say that there "frame of reference" is removed, are you quoting someone? I remember that phrase from a book I wanted to investifge, and can no longer recall the title. That is such a good way of putting it!!
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on December 11, 2007, 10:44:38 PM
10/31/2007 10:00:00 PM    
Castell residents to fight proposed summer camp

By George Hatt
Highland Lakes Newspapers

Another fight is brewing in Castell.

Rand and Colleen Southard, owners of Charis Hills, a Christian summer camp for children with learning disabilities, or "learning differences" as Mrs. Southard prefers to call them, have bought property on the Llano River and plan to move Charis Hills from its current location in Ingram.

"We just finalized the property this week (Oct. 22)," Mrs. Southard said. "We are just getting our ducks in a row and getting Charis Hills up and running."

Mrs. Southard said that they have sold the location in Ingram. Work crews are already improving the acreage on the Llano River, called Llano River Estates.

"It is a camp for special needs children," Mrs. Southard said. "We call them learning differences," instead of learning disabilities. "We are building our permanent location on the Llano River."

Mrs. Southard said that she planned to be ready to host up to 500 campers by next summer.

"Camp starts in the early part of June, and the staff comes in May," she said. "We better be ready. We have a lot of work to be done, but we are very excited."

In the off-season, the camp will serve parents and children together.

"During the remainder of the year, we will have family camp. Parents can attend educational seminars and learn about their child's diagnosis and parenting from a Biblical standpoint," Mrs. Southard said.

Some in Castell are gearing up for a fight. Weeks before the deal closed, residents alerted the press to a dark spot on the Southards' record called Star Ranch, a residential treatment center that was closed after the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services pulled the Southards' permit to operate.

The Southards have a permit through the Texas Department of Health to operate a non-residential summer camp, which is what Charis Hills will be.

DFPS cited several incidents, two of them fatal, as justification for pulling the residential treatment license.

The incidents were detailed in a letter to Mr. Southard from Charlane Bateman, director of residential licensing, dated June 15, 2006.

The letter said that in December 2005, "a child died as a result of an inappropriate restraint by one of (Star Ranch's) staff members; DFPS subsequently made an abuse finding against that staff member."

The letter also accused the facility of neglectful supervision that resulted in a drowning in 2006 and two instances of sexual conduct between residents.

In December of 2005, "a 17-year-old resident of your operation sexually assaulted an 11-year-old resident in part because of the neglectful supervision by a caregiver," the letter said. "On or about Sept. 3, 2005, one of (the) staff members neglectfully supervised three children who in turn acted out sexually," the letter goes on to say.


Mrs. Southard defended their record.

"There were two horrible accidents that happened to 18 years of an excellent record," she said.

Mrs. Southard said that the child who was restrained was banging his head and staff had to restrain him. She claims that the child had a heart attack.

As for the sexual activities, she said that the information was incorrect.

"I think we had an excellent record," she said. "This is a population of kids who are misunderstood. They're not always the easiest children to work with."

The Southards appealed the finding in June 2006; the finding was upheld this spring.

Residents are concerned about the Charis Hills' ability to supervise the children.

"As someone who is deeply inspired by our heritage, I find an effort of this nature to be a total cultural shock to the calm and peaceful 160-year-old German community of Castell," said resident Patty Pfister. "As property owners whose property adjoins the proposed camp, my husband and I find the newspaper articles of the death of two children and other allegations of abuse and neglect of children at their previous camps to be very unsettling and disturbing."

The Southards will not be able to apply for another license from DFPS to operate a residential treatment center for five years.

Mrs. Southard said that she and Mr. Southard are committed to bringing Charis Hills to Castell.  "We feel like we were called by God. We're excited to be doing what we're doing."
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on December 11, 2007, 10:47:03 PM
Center to give support to former foster kids

By Alison Beshur
The Daily Times  

Published November 27, 2007

When foster children age out of the state’s system, many struggle because they lack access to affordable housing while they start college, get their first job or simply plan their next step in life.

These young adults between the ages of 18 and 23 soon will have a place to go to ease their transition into adulthood.

Enhanced Horizons, a young adult transitional living center, is expected to open in May at the former Star Ranch-Charis Hills camp in Ingram.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Deborah on December 11, 2007, 10:55:11 PM
Castell Residents Circulate Petition
Look to stop Charis Hills
Published on December 5, 2007
By Staff Reports

The Castell Community Christmas Party Saturday night was not all holiday camaraderie, it was also an opportunity to bring residents together in their opposition to the Charis Hills Camp.

The new summer camp with an emphasis on children with learning disabilities is being planned by Rand and Colleen Southard for 43 acres of land on the Llano River and the Castell Community is not happy about it. A petition headed for the Llano County Commissioners Court was circulated at the Saturday gathering.

The petition has four tenants for appealing to the commissioners for some kind of help in blocking the development.

First they say the location is unsafe and unsuitable for a youth camp:

• CR 104 and the 43 acre camp site are subject to life-threatening flash flooding. CR 104 is the only entrance and exit to the property between the Castell Bridge and Elm Creek. The road is in the 100-year floodplain and in the past has been inundated with 6-8 feet of floodwaters.

• Children from the camp would be required to cross the county road in order to access the river.

Secondly, says the petition, managers of a camp known as Star Ranch near Ingram in Kerr County, Texas, and run by the same operators’s had a residential program license revoked by the Texas Department of Family Services (DFPS) after the death of two children and numerous other incidents of neglect and abuse.

Thirdly, Castell residents complain that the camp represents an undue Llano County tax burden.

• The owner of the proposed facility is a tax-exempt nonprofit organization which will not pay county taxes.

• The facility will likely require initial and ongoing expense including extra law enforcement personnel, the pavement and improvements to CR 104, additional maintenance on county roads, and potential evacuation costs during flooding events.

Finally, the petition lumps together unknown factors.

• The impact of the facility on downstream water quality is unknown.

• The eventual uses of the property are unknown. The previous facility in Ingram Texas, started as a summer camp, and then expanded to a residential facility, a placement service and a charter school.

“We, the undersigned, do not welcome a corporate business that would put children and others in harms way, place an undue hardship on an entire community, and a financial burden on all of Llano County, the petition concludes.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 12, 2007, 05:29:07 AM
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
Where's The Who?  He was a staunch supporter of this program and when I said they were killing kids he said I was "extreme," "uninformed" and that nobody really knew what happened, but it seemed like just "an accident."



Time for you to eat a healthy portion of your own ignornt words once again, Who.  I've never seen someone who presents as a "thinker" be so wrong so many times on so many different issues.



Too bad that it takes two dead kids to get the attention needed to close the place with apologists like The Who running around defending programs sight-unseen.  Too bad also that another kid had to die while you were waiting for "the facts to emerge," Who.  



Here's the facts:Star Ranch kills kids.  Just like I said when they killed the last one.


Oh, The Who underplaying a child’s death for his bizarre emotional, and craven financial ends? Never!
Title: Charis Hills Camp Is Good For Llano County
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 06:22:41 PM
“Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble.â€
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2007, 06:45:27 PM
Quote
a small but vocal politically liberal contingent


You mean THE PEOPLE WHO HAPPEN TO LIVE IN THAT PART OF RURAL TEXAS?

:lol:

Face it- Republican, God-fearing, salt-of-the-earth, military-family red staters have had it with your bullshit too.
Title: Politics
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2007, 09:31:23 AM
Forgive the snap judgment. Most of the nastiest posts have been on exceedingly liberal blogs. Is this a denial of that leaning? "God fearing" should inspire a difference in kindness, gentleness and even language. Are you sure?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2007, 02:51:42 PM
i'm sick of this liberal-conservative bullshit! do you people even know the difference between  a liberal and conservative? or do you just label everyone who doesnt agree with you as a liberal? the U.S right-wing has convoluted political thought through the media to the point that people have no clue what's up or down, left or right.

and about god fearing leading to gentle even language...

sometimes "gentle even language" doesnt do the job. it doesnt make the point because it doesnt make people care enough. other times, such as in your case (or most program proprietor's cases), "gentle language" equals "weasely worded spin pieces". strong language must be used to override your clever but still insufficient propaganda.
Title: Weasely Language
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2007, 06:52:32 PM
Thanks for asking. I believe I do know the difference in a liberal and a conservative, and would wager I was practicing informed political activism while you were still searching for your bong.

I didn't say "gentle language," but, please, apply it as your conscience dictates. How did you get so angry? Do you think the Internet is an escape valve for your juvenile spew? This isn't propaganda. Previous posts weren't, either. The truth will out.
Title: Re: Politics
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 17, 2007, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: ""fortbriscoe""
"God fearing" should inspire a difference in kindness, gentleness and even language.



Really?  Why?
Title: God Fearing
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2007, 06:58:08 PM
Fearing God implies a fear that He may judge and condemn me. Acknowledging that, I look for the truth that may lead me to escape that judgment. Having found that answer, I note that it includes some instructions in life--notably, gentleness, kindness and simple language.

Toasts to your zircon-encrusted tweezers.
Title: Fornits Wiki page
Post by: Anonymous on December 18, 2007, 07:08:55 AM
Charis Hills on Fornits Wiki (http://http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Charis_Hills)

Let me know if there are further info out there.
Title: Re: God Fearing
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 18, 2007, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: ""fortbriscoe""
Fearing God implies a fear that He may judge and condemn me. Acknowledging that, I look for the truth that may lead me to escape that judgment. Having found that answer, I note that it includes some instructions in life--notably, gentleness, kindness and simple language.

Toasts to your zircon-encrusted tweezers.



Are you saying that one can't find their moral compass without god?
Title: Re: God Fearing
Post by: Anonymous on December 18, 2007, 01:09:27 PM
Are you saying that one can't find their moral compass without god?[/quote]

No. Adolf Hitler found his moral compass. Not that anyone would want to go the direction his compass pointed. I am saying that if one claims to be God-fearing, then it is reasonable to expect some adherence to what God instructs.

I can imagine a kind, reasonable atheist, deist, or agnostic.

The claim the earlier post made was to be God-fearing. His claim was made in the context of a hostile, unkind, and juvenile manner. He can't have both.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Nihilanthic on December 18, 2007, 04:49:02 PM
I found mine without any support from anyone - real or imagined at all.

It lead me here.  :evil:

Fuck revealed morality.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Botched Programming on December 18, 2007, 04:52:57 PM
Hell.... I've got the morals of an alley cat!!!!!......... No compass needed.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Froderik on December 18, 2007, 05:30:05 PM
So what's the moral of the story?

Ha...ha...
Hey, at least I know when my jokes suck -- I've read FAR worse on here, and you laughed like retards...

How about this one: my moral compass has gone south..

Eh?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Che Gookin on December 18, 2007, 06:45:19 PM
There are some hotties in Atlanta. So south is a good direction to point for your moral compass.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2007, 09:49:13 AM
So I've heard...in fact, my gf lived there for a while... :wink:

So anyway, what was this thread about?
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2007, 04:26:14 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
So anyway, what was this thread about?


Just another kid getting killed by a program. No big deal.
Title: Wear it out
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2007, 05:51:21 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
So anyway, what was this thread about?

Just another kid getting killed by a program. No big deal.



You say this as if it's new news. It isn't. No new deaths to report. This thread is a terribly tired, ignorant hand-wringer's do-gooder dip into the past. Get a life.
Title: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2007, 02:26:08 AM
I'm very glad you help parents know what they're in for, Briscoe. I really am. But I think they need a more thorough explanation.

Parents, you believe the shit, you pay out the ass, your kid dies, but you know what? That's not the end of it!

Because a year and a half later if you've finally wised up and log on at the right time, you can find, hey-crap, a dozen page thread stickied to the top of Fornits (This is probably more attention than you paid to him when he was alive, but hey, who's counting?), with program shills trying to deny your kid's death had anything to do with them, the usual assortment of outrage, and the second-to-last poster- an actual, guaranteed 100% programmie, one of the very people you signed your kid away to- referring to the discussion as nothing but a

Quote
terribly tired, ignorant hand-wringer's do-gooder dip into the past.


and the last post mocking you for your idiocy.

Hey, Mr. and Mrs. Ortega, what were you going to get him for his thirteenth birthday, anyway? Inquiring minds want to know. Hey, I bet Christmas is a lot cheaper this year than it was two years ago, eh? He'd be asking for a PS3 about now. About four and hundred fifty bucks, depending on version, which, come to think of it, is about a day's stay at the average program. Damn, I bet you wish you would have bought your kid something to keep him occupied instead, huh?

Well it's too fucking late now, ain't it? Wah wah wah, your kid's dead. What do you want, a medal? A little skull and crossbones, pinned right next to your genitals. How about a "I send my kid off to suffer at the hands of unqualified sadists, and all I got was a twelve-year-old corpse, an empty bank account, and this lousy T-Shirt!" I bet that one will be awesome to explain at parties.

C'mon, parents! Send your kids! There's nothing Anonymous enjoy more than a good, healthy dose of mockery when your kids croak, be the kill a flush down some toilet of a creek, a lethal three-hour-long squashing session by a 300-pound man with a sadistic side like a Mobius strip, or maybe just a good, old-fashioned bowel infarction. Believe me, your pain will be far from the first we've laughed at.

C'mon, what are you waiting for? Glossy brochures promising "changed" and "loving" teenagers be damned, isn't this what you really want? Face it, dead kids are so much easier to take care of. Most of them kill themselves after program (and you and the program get to pretend that however many months of being mentally destroyed had NOTHING to do with it, thereby instantly absolving yourself of guilt! Self-delusion ROCKS!), but maybe you'll hit the lottery, get the being that some-teen odd years ago used to nurse at your breast turned into a piece of dead, cold meat, and then get to sue the program for everything they've got! (Assuming you haven't really drunk the Kool-Aid, like Layne Brown's dad did, saying that the program gave him extra time of life. But hey, when you're that crazy, you don't need to worry anymore!)

Oh, don't pretend to be outraged by this. Let's face it, parents, you'd be a lot happier without that little shit in your life. The new wife doesn't like him, he smokes pot, and he even said the F-word to your face once. Get rid of him!

But, y'know what? You don't really need a program for that. All you need is a .45 and a shovel. "He ran away." Done deal! Why bother doing things the long way?
Title: Re: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2008, 03:31:45 PM
I WISH I COULD KILL THE OWNERS OF THESE PROGRAMS
[email protected]
Title: Re: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2008, 08:45:35 PM
You don't wish you could kill the owners of these programs, you wish you could kill them without dying or going to jail. If that isn't a concern for you (e.g. you have been too horribly abused to sleep without nightmares again, or simply don't want to live anymore), then there isn't anything stopping you, now is there? If you save up enough money, do your homework, plan everything well in advance and don't get stopped at the scene, I guarantee that you can serially kill programmies at the rate of one per night. Or you can have fun with it and creatively butcher every adult in one, single, program before becoming an hero. Up to you.
Title: Re: Another 12 year old dies at STAR RANCH
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2008, 09:11:04 PM
You know, I never really thought about it that way! Thanks! I think I'll get started as soon as I can! So many to kill, so little time!