Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 01, 2006, 12:30:00 AM
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Good to find some fellow Seed Grads. I'm part of the Naples contingent.
It seems like there is a lot of pain left in the folks I find here. The most dangerous part of the Seed for me was driving Alligator Alley twice on Wednesdays and then again on Friday & Sunday.
For me, The Seed made the difference. I needed a slap in the face and a kick in the ass. For those of us who were attitude problems with mild drug issues, that is exactly what we needed. When I left the program, I moved on with my life struggling with the same issues that got me on the front row but I was given great tools to use to keep moving ahead.
I blew my highschool career but becasue of the impact of the seed, I was able to salvage something of an education.
I haven't been tuned into the bad shit that has happend to some of the other grads and I'm sad for those. I'm glad I went to the Seed. I'm dissapointed that I needed to but I thank my parents for doing something to shake me off my distructive path. I don't know that I could do the same for my kids. I'm lucky to have two kids that are smart and well balanced. My parental issues are the classes they are taking, not trying to figure out where the seeds in their pockets came from... I certainly deserve worse.
Cheers & Happy New Year,
Jesus Christ! 32 years ago? Is that right? Holy Shit!
[email protected]
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Cheers back at you
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Welcome to the forum!
On 2005-12-31 21:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
For me, The Seed made the difference. I needed a slap in the face and a kick in the ass. For those of us who were attitude problems with mild drug issues, that is exactly what we needed.
Er, speak for yourself there pal. I Think many of us would take exception to that particular perception.
When I left the program, I moved on with my life struggling with the same issues that got me on the front row.
No suprise there. Most of us did. The "magic" seemed to wear off rather quick.
but I was given great tools to use to keep moving ahead.
The steps and signs? I disagree wholeheartedly. Most people took these "tools" and believed they were powerless and doomed without the seed. I see a hugely negative value in these set of 'tools' in or out of context. What about the rest of the 'tools'? Learning to keep a human captive? Humiliation? Degradation, ass-kissing? Conformaty? Self-loating? black and white thinking? Hero-worship?
Just what "tool" you got from that nuthouse is valuable?
I blew my highschool career...but becasue of the impact of the seed, I was able to salvage something of an education...
I'm dissapointed that I needed to but I thank my parents for doing something to shake me off my distructive path. I don't know that I could do the same for my kids. I'm lucky to have two kids that are smart and well balanced. My parental issues are the classes they are taking, not trying to figure out where the seeds in their pockets came from... I certainly deserve worse.
This just never seems to give me a little surprise. People proclaim somehow they "needed" the seed because they did a little drugs and were somehow 'doomed' because of this and their general fuck upedness.
Then, lo and behold... they admit they continued to use and have the same "issues" after being released, they acknowledge their education took a rousing fucking. In spite of this non-result, They thank their parents for doing this to them but shudder at the thought of doing it to their own kids who are....drum roll...very much like they were with the seeds of death,insanity or jail rolling around in their pocket. Is this reality we speak of here?
Did the seed really convince people they were that fucked up before 'treatment' and so much different than their own children? That they didn't possess the goodness and intelligence of their own children, and that they were bound to self destruct without being locked away in a warehouse full of singing hitlers?
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We are constanly going on in these forums about how one size does not fit all. It obviosly does fit a few but if one child was harmed then I think that is one too many. How can anyone equate the seed as being a saviour to them if it did so at the destruction of others? Were you so important that others should be sacrificed to make your life better? Just because you were too dull and unimaginative to help yourself? Even a blind pig finds an acorn every once and the cookie cutter apraoch to therapy will everyonce in a while find a cookie that fits it. I'm sure some bad people died when we saturation bombed iraq but was it worth all the innocent lives that were lost? So it was with the seed and it's spawn and continues to this day.
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Life may be short but it is also very wide, go around the yucky parts when you can.[ This Message was edited by: SurRobinHood on 2006-01-01 09:49 ]
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On 2006-01-01 09:46:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
"We are constanly going on in these forums about how one size does not fit all. It obviosly does fit a few but if one child was harmed then I think that is one too many. How can anyone equate the seed as being a saviour to them if it did so at the destruction of others? Were you so important that others should be sacrificed to make your life better? Just because you were too dull and unimaginative to help yourself? Even a blind pig finds an acorn every once and the cookie cutter apraoch to therapy will everyonce in a while find a cookie that fits it. I'm sure some bad people died when we saturation bombed iraq but was it worth all the innocent lives that were lost? So it was with the seed and it's spawn and continues to this day.
_________________
Life may be short but it is also very wide, go around the yucky parts when you can.[ This Message was edited by: SurRobinHood on 2006-01-01 09:49 ]"
I believe it's a state of mind, as to WHAT EACH person does with their experience. I could look back and complain about being "locked up" for a year or whatever, or I could choose to use some of the tools offered and get something out of it. I choose to use it to my benefit instaed of being a "victim".
Wish more people would. Life is better that way.
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I agree with you anon. I was angry at first that my parents hijacked me into the seed. Yet lo and behold, I learned somethings in there. I too walked away with some tools, and that helped, along with therapy, to find me and grow. I know now being taken off of the streets and put into the seed did save my life. Most of my old "druggie friends" are now dead, and 99 percent from drug overdoses. I am still alive and living a happy life.
Yes, there are two sides to every coin, yet most of my experience in the seed from 72-73 wasn't all that horrible. I had to look my demon right in the eyes, because he was on staff. So is life. If life were just a bowl of cherries and great, I know I would have never grown up. On this forum one size doesn't fit all... agree! There are people who show no tolerance for the pro-seed, and a whole bunch of anti-seed. Yet aren't those differences is what makes the world go round... :smile: [ This Message was edited by: JaLong on 2006-01-01 16:21 ]
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WOW!
Are all Seedlings this torqued up?
I fixed my life because of the experience I had at the Seed. Maybe I would have anyway, maybe not. The fact is, I'm better for it. What others did with their experience was not and is not my responsibility or concern. Whatever soaps were going on with the staff was not my concern. I was there to fix me, not participate in a larger society.
Curiosity piqued my desire to go looking for some grads. I expected to find people who were mildy successful and mostly happy with their life. Does this fit any of you?
Neil
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I notice none of you who responded to my post attempted to answer any of the questions I posed there. Avoiding something?
Still copping out?
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I noticed none of you who responded to my post attempted to answer any of the questions I posed there. Avoiding something? Still copping out? I admited it did help some people but at what cost? It was not a matter of choosing to look at the bright side of life. We weren't offered any choices. If it helped you great but what about the others? You wonder how many succeded after the seed but do you wonder how many people were drivin over the edge and started cutting people into little pieces with mansons buddies? How many suicides from lack of self esteem because they bought those tainted goods that said they were worthless without the seed in their life? How many couldnt live for themselves so they joined a more destructive cult after they couldnt live up to the seeds standards and were rejected by their families? I am more than happy to see that there were some positive affects on some people. Are you willing to see that the opposite is also true?
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On 2006-01-01 19:02:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
You wonder how many succeded after the seed but do you wonder how many people were drivin over the edge and started cutting people into little pieces with mansons buddies?
I am more than happy to see that there were some positive affects on some people. Are you willing to see that the opposite is also true?
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Sur Robin,
I feel you are aiming at my head and not the apple there upon....
To be accurate, I said "I expected to find mildly successful..." grads. I certainly didn't expect to find hordes of ruined lives and I would be quite dismayed to find that what you say is true.
Are your statements, about the demise of so many grad's lives, opinion based on anecdotal evidence or fact based on controlled surveys and historical data? If there are such studies that are published, it would be interesting to read them.
Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.
Neil
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Well if you consider these forums and the books written about the seed as anectdotal then some of my info is. As far as my personal experience goes every seedling I have met since or know of from my days there had joined other cults or deadinsaneorinjail to use the common vernacular. I have no personal experience with a single seed success story and have only ever heard one here on these forums. Until comeing here I had no idea there were any pro seed people who were not still in the bussiness. I'm not aiming anything at your head or your apples. I'm trying to inspire compasion. Still no response to my questions.
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Looking back through the baghead responses I see at least neil did respond. He says it's not his concern .... hmmm ... he could care less, as long as he got his so what about everyone else. I guess it's the american way......
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Sur Robin,
Thanks for not aiming at my apples...
As I read through some of the other threads, I'm starting to get a feel of some of the personalities.
Please don't accuse me of not caring or being uncompassionate.
The Seed did not convince me that my previous life was fucked up. It was. The fact that I was going nowhere but down was not a perception built by the Seed.
Somewhere in a scrapbook I have two report cards. One from the final semester of my 11th grade and one from the 1st semester of the 12th. Fs and incompletes transformed into straight As. (attending school helped tremdeously)
Before the Seed, I stole $20 a day for months from my boss to ?buy? and when I returned, I repaid him as close to what I could figure I skimmed from him. It took months of most of my paycheck.
Etc. etc. etc.
Tools? Self awareness and balls.
I learned to pay attention to what ?I? needed. I got the strength to do what ?I? needed to do.
Were the tactics of The Seed cultish and brutal? Yes, I imagine they were. Was I forced to endure it? Yes. But, I chose not to perceive it as some fucked up place that screwed people up. I didn?t slide under the gate and try to ?Split? or haul ass from my old comer?s house. I realized that it was up to me to ?fix? me and they were going to use whatever pressure they could bring to make me do it. So, I chose to do it.
Not long after I graduated, I learned that the ?rules? were not to live by but to keep me on the right road until I could figure out my own rules. I have done that with some success yet I will accentuate ?Some?.
The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty. Without the rigor of being tested at every move by someone tuned into my crap, it became easy to let little shit slip here and there. I miss the clearness of those days.
At any rate. It?s never occurred to me to check on the reality of The Seed to see if it had a shinning star or dirty secrets. I went through a fucked up time in my life and I got ?straight?. I never felt, nor has anyone every put any expectation on me to go looking. I had the impression that ?The Seed? wanted me to go out and do my life the best I could. That?s what I?ve tried to do.
Neil
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Lookie here, he got it.
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On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty.
Okay, Im calling major bullshit on that statement. THe seed was perhaps one of the most dishonest places ever conceived of. Art was a pathological liar, they lied to get you in the place, they lied about how long you could stay, they lied about "awareness", They lied about court orders, they lied to the press, they told you to lie to your parents about what when on in group, and on and on.
In fact, just like any cult, they redefined the term honesty to mean "tell me what I expect to hear". If you really tried to be "honest" such as standing up and saying something like "you know, it is cruel and heartless to feed teenage kids wet PB&Y sandwhiches and make them sit in chairs all day", or "sure I had fun before I came in the seed..one time I went to this party and got a blowjob and it was great" your ass would be chewed out for hours and you would lose all the time you invested in the program. The place wasnt' just dishonest it punished real honesty and then redefined honesty. One of the markers of cults, BTW.
Honesty was redefined to fit expectations within the group.
Curiosity piqued my desire to go looking for some grads. I expected to find people who were mildy successful and mostly happy with their life. Does this fit any of you?
It fits many of us, however you define sucess. It does not mean we cannot rational discuss our time in the seed, in either negative or postive terms. We do not need to be successfull to accept or reject the seed, nor do we need to be a failure (whatever that is) to accept or reject the seed. What in the world would lead you to this conclusion?
I notice none of you who responded to my post attempted to answer any of the questions I posed there. Avoiding something?
Still copping out?
ewwww, yucky seed 'comn down on you' terminology and tactics. I need a shower!
:grin:
Seriously, Just what questions do you have. Post them here and I/we will do what we can to answer them. I would appreciate you taking some time to read thru the forum first. It started with this thread five years ago.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... forum=8&34 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=183&forum=8&34)
Neil , you said this...." I had the impression that ?The Seed? wanted me to go out and do my life the best I could. That?s what I?ve tried to do."
And I would say that was a reasonable assumption. However, Did you ever say just drop in on the ole seed in Ft Lauderdale? I did and they treated me like I was the enemy, as they did many others. The truth is, once you left the seed, except in rare cases you were seen as "one of them", seedlings weren't allowed to talk to you, and otherwise the seed was suspicious of you.
Benevolent drug rehab/savior or freaky deaky little cult?
I think the answer is obvious.
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Well, if it seems that on the seed discussion forum it's still the same old same old for seedlings, that's because it is. There's really only a couple of ways to handle the factual information you will learn about The Seed when you actaully read it in context and believe it some 30 years later.
Faithful, true Seedlings come here and are amazed that people were hurt and are "still" agonizing over the experience. Most seedlings staying true to their programming will say I should just get over it, stop hurting, stop being angry, stop expressing feelings that cause other's doubt and make them uncomfortable because my contrary feelings are not important to the well-being of the group.....
Thanks for the helpful hint - about as helpful in real life as telling someone you know and love that you don't want to talk to them anymore because they LOOK like a druggie, or a bank teller who miscounts your money, or the bag boy who breaks your eggs...
Please do not fail to see that the distress most people feel upon coming to this place is caused by awakening to the facts of the mistreatment received while we were there.
As for any measured rate of failure vs. success between true seedlings and those who openly reject the teachings? We all have successes and failures in life. I think it's just as stupid to blame those shortfalls on a person's failure to engage the programming "tools" as it is to give the seed programming credit for all of the success and happiness in your life.
When your life view hinges on programmed perceptions, you take yourself right out of the mix and you are no longer personally responsible for the results on either side of the equation.
"If it wasn't for the seed I'd be deadinsaneorinjail." Geeze, that's such a lie. I was made insane by that place, nearly killed myself trying to overcome the programming and resided in my own jail trying to live within the confines of the programming.
When seedlings begin to question the techniques used to make them compliant and straight individuals, well - there is usually one several reactions:
1. Some people are frightened by the realization of how controlled they were and they retreat into their safe confortable mindsets and refuse to accept the challenge of growing up a bit more. It's hard realizing and accepting that you have had a hand in your own emotional rape - or that you have hurt other's along your path and quest for seed-like perfection.
2. Some people get angry and become zealots on the other side of the equation fighting and lashing out at people around them, trying in vain to awaken themselves and others - that would be me. And as time passes, I become less angry and more reflective, but a zealot nonetheless. Poke poke.
3. Some people still spout the company line about how "fucked up" they were, how they didn't love themselves,etc., etc., etc., - you have all sat through the I-was-a-bad-ungrateful-motherfucker-before-the-seed routine. It's said with a vengence and as a means of protection. Kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and then screaming Na-nana-na-na-na-na like little kids do when we tell them something they don't want to hear.
Will we, collectively, ever reconcile all this? Maybe. But one has to realize that the seed, I think in more cases that we are willing or able to admit, has stunted us all at some point in time. Some will make it, some will not.
It stunted me emotionally and I was stuck in that place for many, many years, using those tools. And I tried everything to get over it - 12 stepping for Ala-non, ACOA, support groups, church, yoga, spiritualism, eastern pholosophy, western philosophy, sex, drugs and even punk rock and roll. I really did try it all looking for the reasons for the intense feelings of rage, emptiness, self-loathing, sorrow and shame. Quite a nasty handful tolug around for 30+ years, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
But not until I understood the truth of the seed's program (the hows and whys) did I understand that I was not living my heart's desires. Instead I was imposing outside rules on my heart and life decisions and by doing so, I was constantly ending up in fucked-up, incredibly painful situations. I was "doing the right thing" or separating myself from people and following the external dogma when my heart truly wanted to go in the opposite direction.
I have experienced no greater sense of relief and peace than the peace that has come with understanding (1) that I was programmed; and (2) that the programming finally failed.
To quote Martin Luther King, and I know it's horribly out of context but the words move me so,
"Free at last, free at last. Thank God I'm free at last..."
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On 2006-01-01 13:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
I believe it's a state of mind, as to WHAT EACH person does with their experience. I could look back and complain about being "locked up" for a year or whatever, or I could choose to use some of the tools offered and get something out of it. I choose to use it to my benefit instaed of being a "victim".
Wish more people would. Life is better that way."
Yeah, I hear Prozac and benzos are real good for that. I choose to use any available means to help put an end to the catastrophically dangerous perception that the Program method is the safest, most effective and (more and more often) legally mandated form of treatment for everything from pot smoking to oppositional defiance disorder and draptomania.
Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.
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On 2006-01-01 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
Curiosity piqued my desire to go looking for some grads. I expected to find people who were mildy successful and mostly happy with their life. Does this fit any of you?
Neil
Yeah, that's me. I didn't graduate the Seed, though. Most of my family did, then I went to Straight. What a long, strange trip it's been, too! But I have about everything I ever wanted now.Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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On 2006-01-01 19:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.
Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
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On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
Please don't accuse me of not caring or being uncompassionate.
But you are being uncompassionate. And really hostile, too. Do you talk to people in real life like this?
Think of it in just a slightly different context. What if you got a kidney transplant and all went incredibly well, beyond all expectations. You thank the doctors and the good mother earth and come to nearly worship the staff and think of them and other patient families as family away from home. All that's great till you find out that your new kidney came from a healthy young highschool kid. They just clubbed him over the head, took the damned thing w/o his consent, patched him up a bit then shoved him out the door to make way for the next one and the next.
Still think those mother fuckers are heros worthy of your adoration and defense?
Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
Without the rigor of being tested at every move by someone tuned into my crap, it became easy to let little shit slip here and there.
Yeah, I had a bit of a rough time relearning things like time management, planning, decision making, apropriate social behavior... I could go on. But I didn't think of that as a good outcome. It's a terrible outcome. I went in a rather confident (cockey? hell yeah!) competent 16yo and came out a very mixed up, directionless, cowed 18yo near orphan.
I miss the clearness of those days.
Clarity? Or pleasant illusion? You actually miss having others do all your thinking for you?
Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::boohoo:: ::boohoo::
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ginger did i just read correctly that you are telling someone that they are talking to people with hostility? you? accusing someone of being hostile?
amazing. people here call one another names periodically or better yet just call people who dont post here names but were too associated with seed so they are fair game, and no one says anything. but reading these posts the guys being hostile. yea...ok ...sure ...whatever....
oh thats right...i forgot. its not what you say, its what ginger decides you meant by it all.i forgot.
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don't blame the players, blame the game :smokin:
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On 2006-01-03 17:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ginger did i just read correctly that you are telling someone that they are talking to people with hostility? you? accusing someone of being hostile?
amazing. people here call one another names periodically or better yet just call people who dont post here names but were too associated with seed so they are fair game, and no one says anything. but reading these posts the guys being hostile. yea...ok ...sure ...whatever....
oh thats right...i forgot. its not what you say, its what ginger decides you meant by it all.i forgot.
"
wha..?
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On 2006-01-01 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WOW!
Are all Seedlings this torqued up?
...
Curiosity piqued my desire to go looking for some grads. I expected to find people who were mildy successful and mostly happy with their life. Does this fit any of you?
Neil"
Yeah, I'd call that hostile. What's your definition?
This is not an accusation, just an observation; a statement of fact. Hostility is really not a crime. You're allowed to be hostile. You can even be hostile and right at the same time.
It's just frustrating. You guys get angry and hostile. You start out with insults then, when you get exactly the response you might expect, you start whining about how hostile and mean everybdy is.
I spent a huge amount of time and energy freeing myself from people who think this is civilized behavior.
I didn't intend for this to take on a political tone, I'm just here for the drugs.
--First Lady, Nancy Reagan at a Just Say No rally
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actually i have never started out hostile ginger. what catagory are you lumping me in? pro seed? wrong. i've never started out with insults, or insulted someone, unless you want to call my post last night to you and insult. perhaps that qualifies. but for some reason you are lumping me in that catagory. hey i've even had greg get angry with me, for pursuing an issue that i turned out to be correct on. but my choice was to apolgies to him for trying his patience.
but since i dont start off with insults with people - then i am not getting the response i woudl expect. but if i read this correct, i guess when people post things about their feelings at the seed then i can say anything i want to them. call them whiney cry babies if i feel like it. because if they complain about my response, then they are just whining. i am just infering this from the order of events here. he posts, you tell him he's hostile and wrong about everything, i post and i am whining. so that seems to be the rules. or maybe, when stripe posts her views on her experiences - i should step back and think that right or wrong its her feelings, and my response back to her should be somewhat mneasured when "discussing" her seed experiences? this was supposed to be dialogue? what gets accomplished when it gets down to accusations? dialogue?
dont lump me in any catagory ginger or any group. its inaccurate and a cop out. i am not respsonsible for what anyone else posts on this board, and if they do something its their problem.
and i hardly call that hostile. are seedlings this torgued up? hostile? some of the insults i've read on the board are hostile. that, please.
and whats wrong with being civilized? if i chose to respond in an uncivilized manner to some fo the posts i read i'd have some really nasty things to wind up saying? are you telling me i can start saying them? because if i tell someone these things, i am quite certain i will be called "unsenstive' as neil was in this post here. something will be said about how i am missing about how everyone suffered and i need to not talked to them that way because i am wrong. so if i am going to do something thats wrong, how is that permitted? its generally my goal to only do things to people that i consider acceptable to being done to me. if its not acceptable to be done to me, then i dont do it to others.
and for greg - my response isnt that hard to follow. i was refering back to a post from ginger where she took something i maggie said and reworded maggies statement to "everyone just shut the fuck up" - and the hostility thing. well thats easy. the first time i was on this board ginger stands out as the most combative person here, by a mile.
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ditto, I'll second.
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On 2006-01-02 21:48:00, Antigen wrote:
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Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?
Antigen,
I'm not sure how you got the impression that I thought you all were a bunch of angry fuck ups. Your responses to my comments indicate to me that you are angry though...
Neil
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Lets start this over. This unattached floating hostility is not going anywhere.
Neil, yes you can post anything you want within reason.
Just be aware, statements like "all are seedlings this torqued up" may get a reaction. Don't expect agreement, but your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's here, and your hostility, either actual or perceived, is okay also. A disussion board should thrive on differences of opinion, so express yours freely and don't get offended when others don't agree.
Lets move on.
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On 2006-01-04 05:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ditto, I'll second."
Who would be # 2, then?
Oh yeah, that would be you.
:grin:
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On 2006-01-02 21:55:00, Antigen wrote:
But you are being uncompassionate. And really hostile, too. Do you talk to people in real life like this?
Think of it in just a slightly different context. What if you got a kidney transplant and all went incredibly well, beyond all expectations. You thank the doctors and the good mother earth and come to nearly worship the staff and think of them and other patient families as family away from home. All that's great till you find out that your new kidney came from a healthy young highschool kid. They just clubbed him over the head, took the damned thing w/o his consent, patched him up a bit then shoved him out the door to make way for the next one and the next.
Still think those mother fuckers are heros worthy of your adoration and defense?
Antigen,
Yes I talk to people like this in real life. Do you?
I didn't know that The Seed sacrificed some other kid's healthy life and gave it to me. My healthy life was what was on the line and I did something about it. The other kid's lives were one the line too. They had/have the oportunity to do something about it and they either did or didn't. What they chose to do was not my problem.
Is the Seed responsible for the humble successes I've had in my life? No. I am. BUT It did play a major role by putting me on a path that gave me a chance.
If the Seed was a monsterous beast that chewed kids up and spit them out as waste, I'm horrified. I'd then also amazed that I participated in such a treterous program and escaped with my health. How did that happen?
They may be mother fuckers but I do not adore them and I'm not in a position to defend them nor am I attempting to. I am defending my experience though. It wasn't fun but I used it to get going in the right direction.
Neil
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I didn't know that The Seed sacrificed some other kid's healthy life and gave it to me.....
If the Seed was a monsterous beast that chewed kids up and spit them out as waste, I'm horrified. I'd then also amazed that I participated in such a treterous program and escaped with my health. How did that happen?
This is one of the things Neil, that has come out of this website. Those of us who perceived we were "helped" by the seed just assumed it helped most everyone and everyone benefited. Those of us who were harmed felt it was generally harmfull, oppressive and dangerous.
I think what we have collectively discovered is that The Seed experience was extremely varied depending on many factors, inluding your age, your actual 'problems' when you went in, how long you stayed, how rebellious in nature you are, what personality type you exhibit, how involved you became, how involved your family became, how quickly you were able to detach, how much your support system caved in around you, and on and on.
Yes Neil, many kids were chewed up and spit out by the seed. I was one of them. I also know many who shrugged it off and went on with their life like nothing happened. But the "success ratio" of the seed? As far as I can tell, only a handfull of kids stopped using, and many many went on to greater problems. We even have a seed grad on death row in florida, and his lawyer used his time in the seed to demonstrate psychological harm in his unsuccessfull appeal. I know many grads that committed suicide, and several others that Od'd on drugs. Many adults who find this site choose not to post, but I receive emails from people that feel devestated by their experience and feel they are forced to keep a dirty little secret from their spouses and children.
I think Ginger's analogy is fitting.
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On 2006-01-02 07:29:00, GregFL wrote:
On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty.
Okay, Im calling major bullshit on that statement. THe seed was perhaps one of the most dishonest places ever conceived of.
Greg,
I wasn't refering to the Seed's honesty I was refering to mine.
Although I did run into folks that wouldn't rest until I agreed with them, even when they were wrong, I believe that the ideas and perceptions about myself "I" came to were indeed true. As I have revisited any of the issues I had then, over time they still hold valid and the guys who held my feet to the fire are still appreciated.
As to your poor reception upon returning to the Seed, I'm not surprised. Good or bad, that environment was controlled and protected. Opening themselves up to a "possible" threat wouldn't have been prudent. The fact that they didn't have some way to show appreciation of grads is too bad. Woulda, coulda shoulda...
I never had the urge to go back.
Neil
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On 2006-01-04 07:07:00, GregFL wrote
This is one of the things Neil, that has come out of this website. Those of us who perceived we were "helped" by the seed just assumed it helped most everyone and everyone benefited. Those of us who were harmed felt it was generally harmfull, oppressive and dangerous.
Greg,
Thank you so much for that response. Best thing I've heard yet.
I've always known that the process at The Seed was contoversial but have never gotten any info on the success and failures.
That is a very difficult field and The Seed certainly wasn't 6 flags over hwy 84 and I'm pretty sure that no kid went there without some sort of problem.
Based on my experience, which was founded on doing things for myself, it's hard to see how the process is blamed for a failure. I have always put the success or failure on the shoulders of the indivdual. Yeah well, a teenager... maybe not completely... which is probably where you are basing your case.
Neil
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On 2006-01-04 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-02 07:29:00, GregFL wrote:
On 2006-01-01 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
The magic did wear off. It was the magic of honesty.
Okay, Im calling major bullshit on that statement. THe seed was perhaps one of the most dishonest places ever conceived of.
Greg,
I wasn't refering to the Seed's honesty I was refering to mine.
Although I did run into folks that wouldn't rest until I agreed with them, even when they were wrong, I believe that the ideas and perceptions about myself "I" came to were indeed true. As I have revisited any of the issues I had then, over time they still hold valid and the guys who held my feet to the fire are still appreciated.
As to your poor reception upon returning to the Seed, I'm not surprised. Good or bad, that environment was controlled and protected. Opening themselves up to a "possible" threat wouldn't have been prudent. The fact that they didn't have some way to show appreciation of grads is too bad. Woulda, coulda shoulda...
I never had the urge to go back.
Neil"
Okay, I better understand now. Thanks.
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Neil...armed and dangerous with phpBB tags.
:grin:
I cleaned them up for you in the last two posts.
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On 2006-01-04 07:32:00, Anonymous
Based on my experience, which was founded on doing things for myself, it's hard to see how the process is blamed for a failure. I have always put the success or failure on the shoulders of the indivdual.
I generally think this is true as well, but you are getting into a muddy area here. What is failure, success? These are terms we define individually.
Generally however, holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger could be categorized as failure, as was done by one kid before group one day. What causes a seed atendee, in the midst of all that "awareness" and "love" to kill himself? What causes a seed grad to stick a needle in his arm in front of his family with a lethal dose of drugs inside?
What drives people to do such things?
There is ample evidence that psychological torment can and does cause these things. There are also stories from the day from pyschologists that were treating kids released from the seed that were suicidal and had feelings of worthlessness. There is a story of a 15 year old girl that ran from the seed in st pete and hid in the woods near her home for a week, to scared to go home..and this after attempting to slit her wrists in the bathroom and then instructed by staff not to tell her parents (honesty?). And then there is the story of a seed grad that got in his car and drove from florida until he was broke and ran out of gas in Illinois because he knew his father was making plans to recommit him to the seed. This kid also choose to take a much harder path that involved other abuses in order not to reendure the Seed, and was scared to even speak to his father again for years. That kid was me, and the seed ripped to shreds my family because I chose to take an intellectual and personal stand against the program dogma after graduating the seed. I am not alone either Neil, many a kid ended up choosing the autonomy of their own mind over the mind-rape of the seed cult, and a huge price was extracted from us kids.
Neil, I am glad you feel the seed gave you a good result. But as Ginger says, there was a price to pay, and that price was paid by the many other kids that felt oppressed, tortured, coerced, scared. The price was paid by kids that weighed the costs and choose to run from their families and ended up a continent away, their family ties forever broken. The price was paid by kids that put guns to their heads, that jumped off bridges, that Overdosed on drugs, that otherwise died suspiciously, by kids that felt lost and rejected and spiraled into depression and mental illness.
This treatment model has shown itself, in all its incarnations from CEDU to the seed, from straight, Inc. to KHK, and from Wasp and other programs, to cause harm to a significant portion of the attendees. While doing this, it also has kids that claim it saved their life.
So again, who pays the price for the saved kids? That is the question being proferred.
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On 2006-01-04 07:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
That is a very difficult field and The Seed certainly wasn't 6 flags over hwy 84 and I'm pretty sure that no kid went there without some sort of problem.
Every human every day has "problems". Kids went to the seed for "druggie attitudes", shoplifting, being the little sister or brother of a seedling, being "dry druggies", you name it, they went there,and as young as 9.
But even if a kid had a drug overuse problem, How does this justify turning your 14 year old over to strangers who lock him up, make him admit to being an addict, barely feed him, give him little sleep, and cuss at, scream and belittle him, sit him around people discussing sex and rape, and lock him away with criminals and sexual deviants, among other treatment modalities of the seed?
The seed was controversial for a reason. It was snake oil sold by a snake oil salesman.
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Greg,
Thanks for the insight.
It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.
Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.
Neil
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Neil,
Not all of us felt like the Seed harmed us. I for one was grateful that I got a chance to go to the Seed. I know in my heart that if I had not gone I would not be the person I am today. I had absolutely no confidence in myself and only wanted to destroy myself. The Seed gave me a sense of self worth and the tools to handle things in life.
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On 2006-01-04 10:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg,
Thanks for the insight.
It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.
Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.
Neil"
Hey Neil,
I've been watching and reading from the sidelines. Neil, your experience is just as real and beneficial and of consequence as the next guy's story. Don't sell yourself short on that. The hard part is finding out that the seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people - and probably you, too. Maybe that knowledge won't directly help you slay the current dragons on your list. But here's what I figured out, and of course, your situation may be entirely different. Understanding that bad shit happened, and that it happened to you and that our (you and me) group participation also caused bad shit to happen to others, well that's a whole lot to swalllow on just one to two contacts here. No doubt about that. Maybe not as harsh as finding out your sister is your mama, but close. :grin:
What I've managed to get from seeing the seed in a different, and yes, it's a much harsher light that some are comfortable with, is that so many of the "tools" were not helpful in the real world context. And no, I'm no slouch in this life. For instance - the whole concept of honesty, or rather, qualified "seed" honesty. Sure you could speak "honestly" to another seedling, but only if you followed the formulaic approach. If you vaired from the honesty dogma, there was hell to pay. Would you have ever dared to stand up in a group meeting and say "Well, no, I don't agree with that. I think this...". I never did that, I saw what happened to people who did that - and for me, it seemed at the time that is was easier and quicker to just go along to get out.
You know the consequences of what that individualism would have brought and so do I. So, because I was weak and controlled, I put that shit on my life and on the lives of others for many years, and it made slaying my dragons so much more difficult. Because they weren't real, usable tools - and they only work perfectly in controlled conditions....controlled conditions being the operative words.
Hey, I don't want to discourage your participation here, not by any means. The fact that you have had a successful life so far speaks voulmes about your strength of character and fortitude - which, without even knowing you, I suspect was a part of you long before you ever expereienced the seed.
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On 2006-01-02 21:48:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 19:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.
Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
"
Studies? No. A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com (http://www.fornits.com)
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I am reminded of something non seed related(not exactly anyway)(true strory here) A freind of mine was hit by a bus. As a result he wanted to sue the the bus company. In order to strengthen his case he diecided being a newlywed would make him more sympathetic to jury should his suit come to trial. I was the best man at his wedding. His suit never came to trial but at my last talking to him he was happily married now ten years later and many good things have happened in life since and perhaps because he got hit by a bus. This does not mean I recomend jumping in front of a bus because you want to make your life better. If a group throws people in front of busses to make their life better I DO find fault with their proccess. So Neil maybe you were one of the ones whos life is better for getting hit by a bus. Please dont pretend like it's a good way to make yor life better. Perhaps you dont want to hear it is not a good thing to get hit by the "bus" of the seed. Maybe you should just crawl back under your rock of denial and let us damged goods people heal ourselves.
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On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-02 21:48:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-01 19:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Call me selfish, blind, irresponsible or whatever but researching the outcome of Seed Grads is not one of the pertinent issues in my life. It?s curiosity at best.
Uh, Neil, you were the one to [egheghm] suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?
It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
"
Studies? No. A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com (http://www.fornits.com)"
Do I detect a bit of animosity in your response?
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On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Studies? No. A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com (http://www.fornits.com)"
You may have the anger part right, to a certain extent, but what gives you the impression that we're a bunch of failures and fuckups? How awfully crass and presumptuous of you.I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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On 2006-01-04 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Neil,
Not all of us felt like the Seed harmed us. I for one was grateful that I got a chance to go to the Seed. I know in my heart that if I had not gone I would not be the person I am today. I had absolutely no confidence in myself and only wanted to destroy myself. The Seed gave me a sense of self worth and the tools to handle things in life. "
The exact point of this thread. Are you not paying attention? The point made was "at what price". We have conceded the point that some people feel they were "helped" by their individual involvement.
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On 2006-01-04 10:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg,
Thanks for the insight.
It doesn't seem that my story is of much consequence here. Obviously bad shit happend for folks and that sucks. If I'm fucked up becasue of the Seed, I'd rather not know it at this point. I have many dragons to slay (the photography industry, the Condo owners assoc, the baseball park, the Scout troop and my retirment account) and discovering that The Seed did a bunch of bad shit to a bunch of people and probably me too, doesn't help me now with those dragons.
Sorry you and others had such a bad time and it sounds like maybe still are. I sincerely hope that you have or will find peace with all this.
Neil"
Thanks Bro. I have made peace with it. This discussion forum exists, and discuss we do, but I promise you I am not stuck back there. Hell, that was over 30 years ago and I was a child, and as you I have a real tangible life to live today. However, this discussion site exists for a reason and so here we are, 30 years later resolving these things and taking hard looks at what happened back then.
Listen, on some level you did want to discuss this or you would have never googled "the seed" or "art barker".
That the discussion isn't exactly an easy feel-goody one I offer no apology for.
As for your story, it is of great consequence here because you are part of a fascinating piece of americana. A small creepy cult rose to meet the fears of a nation and within 2 years Thousands of children were locked up against their will under threats and coercion and made to conform to a model. The parents adopted the lingo and associated only within the group. Outsiders were rejected, and their criticism of the 'seed robots' was loud and clear. A charasmatic leader rose up and claimed he was sent to save the american youth. The government got involved.
Then...the shit hit the fan, ex-seedlings started telling what really went on behind the warehouse door, the press relentlessly asked questions, and the government studied and cut funding... and the place regressed to its roots, a creepy little treatment cult. In its wake a replacement without the, er 'problem', of Art Barker, and the replacments have somehow existed to this day, in spite of horrible press, complaints and lawsuits.
Neil, you were part of it. If you wanna stick around and figure out what the hell it was, by all means do so. You want to go away and re-bury the memories and believe the hype that you were a lost soul saved by the seed, well that is your call as well.
whatever you decide..this forum is all about you and it is here for you now or whenever you are ready.
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On 2006-01-04 11:27:00, Stripe wrote:
Maybe not as harsh as finding out your sister is your mama, but close. :grin:
Man, that just sucks! Have you told Jerry Springer about this?
:grin:
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On 2006-01-04 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
On 2006-01-02 21:48:00... suggest that we're all a bunch of angry fuckups and failures. Got studies to support that?
"
Studies? No. A message board FULL of shit that supports the claim - look no further than http://www.fornits.com (http://www.fornits.com)"
"
You know, that link leads me in a circle right back to here. Maybe that is why were angry and fucked up, you have linked us in an infinite circle.
How the hell will I ever get out of here now?
:scared: :scared:
:wink:
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Jalong wrote:
Yes, there are two sides to every coin, yet most of my experience in the seed from 72-73 wasn't all that horrible. I had to look my demon right in the eyes, because he was on staff.
On 2006-01-01 16:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
Whatever soaps were going on with the staff was not my concern. I was there to fix me, not participate in a larger society.
I just picked up on this while reviewing the thread.
Neil, had you been around here a little longer, you would have been able to deduce that Jalong was speaking of a junior staff member in St Pete (the same one that did my intake "search" btw and got my pants and underwear down around my knees to see if I had drugs down my pants).
Jalong has told us a story about this staff member raping her before going in the seed, and then being forced to face him every day.
Now Jalong believes the seed helped her, and I cannot take that perception from her. But I just have to wonder how theraputic it is to lock a 15 year old girl up, restrict her movements, her ability to call anyone, set up a system where she can only speak under certain circumstances, and then put her rapist in a position of authority over her? I think a person with lessor mental accurity could have developed a mental disorder or worse under the same circumstances.
As someone said earlier, the cookie-cutter approach to 'therapy' or 'rehab' if you will, once in a while may find a cookie in the proper shape but this is the exception not the rule. For many many kids, having our behavior modified by these crude totalitarian techniques felt like anything but love.
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How did I get here? You know, they say sometimes you go someplace you're needed but don't know why. So here's how I got here...I was looking up information on the old Skipper Chuck Show. Chuck Zinc, the host, passed away a couple of days ago and I was curious to find the story about it. Somehow I found this set of forums, and on one that talked about Skipper Chuck there were some postings about the Seed.
I'm a lifelong South Florida resident. I remember hearing about and even passing the building many many years ago. I was never in the program but fortunately didn't need it.
Why am I here? I read some of the postings and see much anger, hurt, sadness in many of the people here. It seems they still are suffering from their past, be it what happened at the Seed or other events. So why am I here at this moment, reading this board?
Maybe to offer an alternative. I'm not going to specifically blow my own horn here, but I do wish to offer those who are still having problems dealing with their emotions from the past (or even in the here and now) a possible solution. It's something that's been around about 25 years but is not well known. It's not a live-in program, not a new medication...it's a method of letting go of all that emotional shit from your past.
The method is called Time Line Therapy. There are practitioners around the world trained in this method, although the number is probably less than 2,000. Yet the method is highly effective...I've seen amazing changes in just a few hours of session time, permanent changes, and in fact was so impressed when I first saw it I decided I had to learn it.
Long story short: Close friend had been having emotional issues for years, I tried to help but knew it was beyond my capabilities and was trying to find help for him. It reached a point where he had decided to commit suicide. Through an almost unbelievable set of coincidences, the day before he became suicidal I heard of this method and the person who did it was going to be in town the next day. When my friend had his crisis, I took him to meet this woman and she agreed to work with him two days later. She worked with him - 2 three hour sessions over 2 days - and it was beyond amazing. He was fine...and has been so for years now. She allowed me to sit in and watch and as soon as she finished I asked her how I could learn. I took a training class with her a few months later and I've been using it for 4 years and the results are incredible.
I would guess some people here would be leary of some "new" method after the issues they had at the Seed, but as I said maybe I was supposed to find this group tonight and post this so some of you might be helped. Sometimes a coincidence isn't a coincidence.
I debated as I end this whether I should put any info on me here since I don't want this to be too self-serving. I am a practitioner of Time Line Therapy techniques, but there are others. Look up Time Line Therapy online. Check out the website for the method, http://www.TimeLineTherapy.net (http://www.TimeLineTherapy.net) (I am not related in any way to the owners of the company, I am just a practitioner). At worst, you'll waste a few minutes reading a couple of web pages. At best, you may find a way to change yourself for the better.
As I said, I debated putting anything about me. Of course, if I was reading this, I'd wonder "who the fuck is this guy"? That said, I'm posting an email address for me. [email protected] If you want to ask me questions about the method, please email me. However, know that there are many practitioners out there and the association can give you names of local practitioners in your area.
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Thank you Greg for clarifying what I was talking about. I guess what Neil said about the "soap" stuff went right over my head. Anyhow yes, I had PTSD, depression, and anxiety before the seed, and it was worse during and after the seed. When I speak of the seed helping me, the only way it did was getting me off the streets.... off of all the drugs and drinking too. That's about it. I was petrified in the seed. The only difference, as I have said before, is that Susie Conners was there for me to talk to. Both at the seed and at my old comers house. (all female staff lived there until they got an apt. on pass-a-grill.)I felt trapped, humiliated, and scared to death everyday I went in there. After I "graduated" 10 1/2 months later, some girls and I got an apt. together. We actually had alot of fun. Now because of this forum I have been reunited with some and with one of the guys I use to hang with. I wasn't treated badly, and we had all kinds of sandwiches. Not just PB&J. When my rapist left, I felt more open to listen to what was going on. I did learn quite alot, and I am greatful that I have remained drug free, and was booze free for 19 yrs. I only drink on occassion. Well that is "part" of my story. And again, thank you Greg.
Neil, there was alot of things going on personally with others, and behind closed doors. I respect how you feel, yet remember, there were hundreds of other "kids" right by your side for 12 hrs a day.
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On 2006-01-06 04:56:00, JaLong wrote:
I felt trapped, humiliated, and scared to death everyday I went in there.
Me too Jalong...I just imagine it was even worse for you.
Also, I felt extremely bad after graduating. Like most of my friends who graduated, we went back to doing some things that were considered to be heretical in the view of seedlings (like a beer here and there, trying to pick up druggie girls, etc) and trying to be normal, only now our old friends all thought we were "narks", the seedlings wouldn't talk to us, and the other kids were suspicious as well. We kind of felt like outcasts, to be honest about it. In addition, a lot of that self defeating "powerlessness" stuff was bouncing around in my head, as was many other powerfull suggestions implanted in me that I later discovered to be erroneous and stifiling to my growth as a happy well adjusted human.
I felt anything but normal as a teenage seed graduate.
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I have not looked on the web to see what this Time Line Therapy is all about. Frankly, I'm suspicious: that doesn't mean it's not an effective therapy, but the whole company reference leaves me, if not cold, definitely suspicious.
However, I have found an incredible amount of comfort and self-understanding from reading Marc Wordsmith's article. His expereiences, which of course, mirrored mine and probably many, many other seed kids regardless of whether we were boys or girls. The day to day mind programming was exactly the same. .
Marc's article is here on the forum and while I'm not a proponent of the "everyone should do this/read this" method, well, I found it made a difference for me. Maybe it was the fact that the planets were properly aligned when I read it and some other things were getting right in my heart, but really, seeing in another's words how we were programmed to turn against ourselves is what rang the bell for me. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2006-01-07 07:45 ]
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The Seed / Art seemed to assume that all drug users and even those with bad or 'druggie' attitudes were all suffering from the same problem that called for the same solution. One size fits all. No distinction was really made between a junkie in their 20's and a young teen with a rebellious attitude. I think this is one of the most serious flaws of the program.
Imagine a psychiatrist that gave all of her patients prozac, regardless of their problem. Many of those suffering from depression would probably be helped to a degree by this treatment. It might have no effect upon others and perhaps make others much worse or even cause them to commit suicide. Imagine this psychiatrist then insisting that those who didn't respond positively to his treatment 'just didn't get it'...that the failed treatment was somehow their own fault. The same could be said about electro-shock and any number of therapies. What may be helpful to some can be harmful to others.
The synanon / seed type of confrontational program may be effective for some people..or at least the lesser of two evils. Just as there are likely many people who are better-off being hari krishna's, jehovah's witnesses or scientologists. Who knows how many were lost and directionless, perhaps headed for suicide or prison, until they discovered the 'Truth' of Rev. Moon? Does this mean those who left those groups or feel they were harmed by them are wrong?
People use drugs / alcohol for different reasons. The 14 year old kid may be smoking pot, drinking beer & smoking cigarettes because her friends are doing it. The result of peer pressure and trying to fit in. A 25 year old heroin addict may be suffering from profound depression or other more serious psychological problems. A teen using drugs like acid might be suffering from feelings of unreality and trying to find a deeper meaning to life (like myself). Others may simply be curious about the effects of the various drugs, sample them and move on.
Art assumed it was all due to personal flaws and the nefarious effects of an evil drug culture that was creeping over the nation...hence a strong focus of the program was on culture-reform rather than drug use itself. It was all due to the clothes, the hair styles, the slang, the music, posters and incense. I recall Ginger (staff member) saying that she got rid of her posters, music and incense because 'what would my newcomer think if she came home & I was rockin' out and burning incense?'
Landhy wrote earlier about his experience with psychiatrists....about how useless it was to him. I went to a psychiatrist for nearly a year before going to the seed. I suffered from feelings of unreality and fear. I was given lots of drugs in an attempt to treat my 'problem'. None had any major effect. They seemed to change their diagnosis of my problem on a weekly basis. So I'm no big fan of modern psychiatry either. It's a science still in it's infancy. I won't say that my time in therapy was totally useless though. I did learn some things about myself. It just never really addressed my underlying problem. Finally, right before I was sent to the Seed I was told that they couldn't cure me because I wasn't really sick. I was told that I suffered from existential anxiety as a result of asking too many deep questions. They concluded I would have to find my own answers to allay this anxiety and therapy offered no cure for me.
Just as my time in therapy was not a total waste, neither was my time at the Seed. But just as the therapy never really addressed my own underlying problem (and the main reason of my drug use), neither did the Seed. Just as I really wanted to be helped by therapy, I really wanted to believe in the Seed and all of their ideology.
Unfortunately, despite all of the techniques I was exposed to on my program (& I maintain that some were useful despite the completely unethical way in which they were imparted) that deep fear or existential anxiety had been left untouched. I still suffered from feelings of unreality. Any time I brought this up to staff I was told to stop looking for a heavy, stop asking those 'deep' questions and just concentrate on helping others. That didn't work for me. The question (about the nature of reality) was just too deeply ingrained to ignore. For me, it was long years of meditation that finally resolved that underlying pain / fear. That was my answer. But I don't insist that what worked for me is what eveyone else needs and ram it down their throat via coercion.
Many of those at the Seed may have simply suffered from some chemical imbalance in their brain....such as chronic depression that is amenable to treatment via the new antidepressants. Being reviled and yelled at was probably not appropriate treatment for them either. I can also see that if you completed your program and realized that you were still basically miserable you might feel not only hopeless but believe it was your own fault...that you just couldn't 'get it'. Returning to heavier drug use, alcoholism or suicide post-seed is entirely understandable under such circumstances. I can also see where those from really toxic families might view the seed as a life-saving alternative family and be grateful for that alternative.
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:11 ][ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:15 ]
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Marshall, Nice post.
I would imagine that the screening criteria at The Seed was "if you got through the door, you qualified." That fact that you showed up meant that Somebody thought you had a problem and Somebody thought The Seed would help. I'm sure they turned some folks away for various reasons but probably not many.
Saying that, I'm really in no position to speculate.
I will speculate though that as a lot of kids there in 73-74ish, my problem was not drugs; they were simply a "...side benefit..." of my problem.
Pre-Seed, I was the classic tumble weed. (sorry for the old description but it fits) My concern was to fit in, have fun and be cool. I have seen 1st hand the old lesson, from my daughter of 16, friends are very powerful. Her friends were super kids from the get go. Her standards are high and now she mingles with super kids and avoids the (careful now) "Losers". My friends sucked and we all wallered in our own shit together. I thought that we all thought that school was for nerds, sports was for jock assholes and anyone involved in any extracurricular activity didn't have a life. ?We? did though. We skipped school, got high, stole and damaged as much personal and public property as we could. And me, the tumble weed, I went along and even nurtured this paradigm. I had no perspective that I needed to figure out what was really important in life and find the strength to do it. Therefore, I was going nowhere and fast. I did a little therapy but as they say, ?A light bulb has to want to change?? The Seed, however egregious, made me want to change.
Now I will say that as big as my problems were to me, in the grand scheme of things they were miniscule and petty. Some others in The Seed probably had (careful again) real problems. Their life could have really sucked. Family, rape, jail, hard drugs, chemical depression, ignorant adults etc. etc. For me and my pathetic reality, all I needed was to be pointed in the right direction and given a big kick in the ass. For the others, that wouldn?t have worked so well? The Seed worked great for me and for the (probably many) others like me, it probably did the same and they have disappeared into life. For the ones that this did not fit, I see that it was more a stumbling block, (or Bus as someone said ) to getting things figured out. (forgive me for what is surely an understatement there)
An analogy:
In my industry, advertising photography, everyone is excellent at one or maybe a few things. I?m good at studio work focusing on products and special effects. Others are good at architecture or people or macro or scenic. Many photographers are whores and they?ll be glad to do your architecture, people, product or any other shot that is out of their expertise and bill you just the same. Some don?t think they?re whores, they think they really are good at everything. These guys gain very little but distain from the community. But because we are not saving lives in our industry, we don?t attack and perceive them as liars and self anointed Deities. They are just bottom feeders doing what they love, photography, thereby helping some and screwing others.
The Seed was good at fixing pathetic little shits like me but surely sucked at fixing kids with ?real? problems.
Out from under my rock?
Neil
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On 2006-01-08 07:37:00, Neil wrote:
The Seed was good at fixing pathetic little shits like me but surely sucked at fixing kids with ?real? problems.
b
Neil, I am sorry but this premise you are harboring is just so flawed on so many levels and so indictive of the thinking of almost all adults that are pro-seed. We were hammered to believe, accept, and testify to the worthlessness of our existences pre-seed to such a level that to continue to accept the seed's perceived value, you must continue to accept your pre-seed life was tragically doomed without them. This view doesn't comport with reality for most people.
First, the biggest complaints about these programs have come from people, like you, that were not addicts but instead juveniles with mostly family and/or behavorial issues, and the most ardent supporters seem to be older and drug addicted when they came in, like John U.
I myself had similar issues to what you described, and the seed did anything but "fix" my issues, which really stemmed around abandonment, control, and neglect. Drugs and other issues were secondary.
Second, I have a real hard time with your characterization of yourself as a "pathetic little shit" pre-seed. I think you may need to get back in touch with who you really were and why you were running around vandalizing property and whatnot. There were real reasons Neil, and I sincerely doubt it was because you were as you self-describe but that instead something else was going on.
Give that kid a break Neil and think about what was really going on.
GregFL
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Greg,
You said:
"I have a real hard time with your characterization of yourself as a "pathetic little shit" pre-seed. I think you may need to get back in touch with who you really were and why you were running around vandalizing property and whatnot. There were real reasons Neil, and I sincerely doubt it was because you were as you self-describe but that instead something else was going on."
I thought The Seed was the entity that hammered us into accepting a ?truth? that was not.
You clearly believe and very well may be right with your assertions about The Seed
BUT
You cannot lead me to believe that I was fine and would have been better without The Seed. I?m not sure what you would have recommended for me back then. What reality would you have created for me?
"pathetic little shit"? Let?s not get too semantic. That kid didn?t need a break, he needed some understanding and a kick in the ass. My parents didn?t know how to do it but they knew I needed something.
Unfortunately I have gotten the message that many Seedling haven?t faired so well and they either blame The Seed or say it didn?t help or it made things worse. It?s too bad.
Do not stray too far from ?Perception is reality?. Your life is what ?You? make of it. If it takes 30 years of consternation to figure out the shit from the Teen years then that?s the life you?ve made for yourself. If you can take a slap in the face or a boot in your ass and figure your shit out early, then you can spend the next 30 years making good shit happen for yourself. Your choice, not someone elses.
Neil
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Neil :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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Neil, I didn't say you were 'fine' before going in the seed.
First, that would be admittedly awfully presumptious of me seeing how I didn't know you. I wasn't 'fine' either my man, I had issues.
What I said was your characterization was overly harsh and very black and white. People generally are mostly good or mostly bad, but no one is totally either. Outside forces generally don't change that, such as other people, institutions or whatnot.
So, I am suggesting that even tho you had problems before going in the seed, you were the same person you are now, which I assume is a pretty good guy.
If you were able to use the seed as a turning point in your life, and you didn't take away problems...congrats.
Also, thanks for getting that these experiences are various for different people.
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What gets on my nerves about neils posts is even though he has now admited the seed wasn't perfect is his harping on how we had a choice in how it affected us. The whole point of being "programmed" was to remove us from being able to make choices for ourselves. The lack of sleep, the monotonous food, the white painted featureless environment, the constant repitition of phrases defined as THEY chose, the peer pressure groups, constant humiliation for no reason or worse being tortured because you thought there was any good in the world outside the seed. These things were all designed to erase our morals and to some extent even our personalities. This way our minds would feel the need to change our axiology to something that weould allow us to eat and sleep ie survive, as obviously we would die if we didn't. All designed to remove our ability to choose anything at all in any part of our life. I was never allowed to choose anything at all about my life. It was follow blindly repeat what was told to me or be punished for it. After the seed I suppose I could have chosen to see it as a good thing but that would have been pretty stupid of me since not one good thing came from it. Jail could have kept me off drugs more effectively while doing less harm to me. I would have learned more responsability from owning a dog than all that seed drivel. Perhaps a few lucky individuals had some choices but they were the exeption not the rule in my experience.
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Sometimes it takes a long,long time for the little patches of light, truth and knowledge to eek through 30+ years of self-reinforced programming.
For some, success in life means that theseed was right and they were worthless pieces of shit and BUT for being saved by Art and the program(ming), they firmly believe they would have continued down their path of personal destruction. The argument is based on a fallacy and that will become apparent soon enough.
Evenutally the veneer cracks and what we thought we believed in changes because our perscpective changes. It's difficult, it's hurtful, and it's exhausting to uproot all you believe about yourself when you are 40+ years old. That's how long it took me to realize what the programming did and how it affected me AND my family. That's a darn long time to live under the influence and while it was hard to overcome, it is not impossible. I am more at peace with my total self now that I have ever been at any other time in my post-seed life.
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:tup:
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On 2006-01-09 09:41:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
"The whole point of being "programmed" was to remove us from being able to make choices for ourselves. The lack of sleep, the monotonous food, the white painted featureless environment, the constant repitition of phrases defined as THEY chose, the peer pressure groups, constant humiliation for no reason or worse being tortured because you thought there was any good in the world outside the seed. These things were all designed to erase our morals and to some extent even our personalities.
"
I took a trip up de nile and that is what the landscape looked like...
It's been common practice for centuries and more to:
Break the compass, clean the area and install a new compass.
Nobody likes being told they need a new compass and certainly nobody likes being broken and wiped clean.
You are complaining about how they removed your old compass and denying that they tried to put in a new and better one.
Humiliation for no reason?
Torture?
These are exagerated perceptions as a result of sloppy compass removal.
I'm pretty sure there is a new compass in there somewhere. It might not be screwed down too tight if you thrashed around too much during installation. Look around real hard. Maybe trying to ignore the sloppy installation job will help you see better. I bet you'll find it.
NAM
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yes NAM, that does sound like a denial trip. How appropriate for you to preface your entry so aptly. No one deserves to be told that they are rotten to the core. They couldn't get to my compass to remove it. lucky me. They were not capable of intalling new morals in me because they were idiots and I could see that. I never used to use the word torture to describe the seed until I saw both houses of congress used those terms in their investigations that led to the seed loseing it's federal funding. I was kept as long as I was because they needed money. It had nothing to do with how well I could spout the dogma. I have read of old timers apologizing for keeping people back for that reason at the exact same time it was happening to me. We each deserve our individuality and no one should be aloud to dictate the morals of others. Just the thought of it makes me wonder when the thought police are comeing out of the closets. It has been common practice for centuries to "break peoples compasses" ie kill ther individuality for the gain of "society". Hitler tried it. Chairman Mao tried it. Stalin tried it. It was no better at the seed. Just history repeating itself in a more subtle and insidious way.
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On 2006-01-09 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
I took a trip up de nile and that is what the landscape looked like...
It's been common practice for centuries and more to:
Break the compass, clean the area and install a new compass.
Nobody likes being told they need a new compass and certainly nobody likes being broken and wiped clean.
You are complaining about how they removed your old compass and denying that they tried to put in a new and better one.
Humiliation for no reason?
Torture?
These are exagerated perceptions as a result of sloppy compass removal.
I'm pretty sure there is a new compass in there somewhere. It might not be screwed down too tight if you thrashed around too much during installation. Look around real hard. Maybe trying to ignore the sloppy installation job will help you see better. I bet you'll find it.
NAM"
Holy shit, that's really scary! :scared: Seriously.
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On 2006-01-09 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-09 09:41:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
"The whole point of being "programmed" was to remove us from being able to make choices for ourselves. The lack of sleep, the monotonous food, the white painted featureless environment, the constant repitition of phrases defined as THEY chose, the peer pressure groups, constant humiliation for no reason or worse being tortured because you thought there was any good in the world outside the seed. These things were all designed to erase our morals and to some extent even our personalities.
"
I took a trip up de nile and that is what the landscape looked like...
It's been common practice for centuries and more to:
Break the compass, clean the area and install a new compass.
Nobody likes being told they need a new compass and certainly nobody likes being broken and wiped clean.
You are complaining about how they removed your old compass and denying that they tried to put in a new and better one.
Humiliation for no reason?
Torture?
These are exagerated perceptions as a result of sloppy compass removal.
I'm pretty sure there is a new compass in there somewhere. It might not be screwed down too tight if you thrashed around too much during installation. Look around real hard. Maybe trying to ignore the sloppy installation job will help you see better. I bet you'll find it.
NAM"
NAM:
Man oh man, talk about denial and the pot calling the kettle black. You don't like what you read and I'm in denial. Classic and funny and you make me chuckle.
...when you pull your head up and realize that you truly were repreogrammed and that it was not a good thing...feel free to call on the losers and cynics currently in denial.
Until then, I would humbly suggest you keep looking for true north because it's not going to show up on any newly installed compass....
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Jesus Christ! I've heard extremely brainwashed parents say things like that. But it is truely shocking and profoundly sad on a whole other level to hear someone denounce themselves like that.
Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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Now after that I'm havin a hard time takeing NAM seriously. Maybe it's some form of humor. He might be british. This is the internet after all.
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Damn, that sounds just like my father in 1973 giving one of his "your brain needed a little washin" speeches...all the while studying my face for signs of treason.
Nam, so sad for you that you think that way.
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Whoa NAM !!
Sounds like your compass is working...
So's mine except that here in the SouthEastern US the declination factor doesn't let mine point directly North... Some ill-timed nooky and two marriages will atest to that!
Your compass analogy, however cute, is dangersously obtuse and flurts with taboo ideas.
If your point is that people are bitching about the treament they recieved and not moving on, I tend to agree. I sense there are some tree huggers here. BUT, regardless their perceptions and memories, they were left with confusion and pain to resolve that "a good talking to" just won't fix. Sometimes, deep wounds never heal.
Neil
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I think it is missing the point a little. How can we know exactly how the past influences us? It's taken me a lifetime to understand how my family influenced me.
I know that the Seed had an effect on me. But I feel that it was a detour, rather than a whole new life (good or bad). I am the person I am today that I probably would have been without the Seed. I didn't get a 'new compass' installed or the old one taken out; or if I did, it was only as long as I was there, imitating Seed behaviour.
If I look very carefully, I can see that either I am a very slightly better person for the experience, or very slightly worse off. I did gain a new understanding of the limits of human behaviour, mine and others. On the otherhand I put my life in a straightjacket for 7 years.
But that is me. Maybe some were profoundly disturbed and/or helped by the Seed experience. I don't see it that way really, although it was a powerful experience I emerged pretty much the person that I am and always was. That's what I think.
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On 2006-01-09 20:42:00, SurRobinHood wrote:
He might be british.
"
Yep, that would explain it.
:lol:
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On 2006-01-10 07:55:00, Anonymous If your point is that people are bitching about the treament they recieved and not moving on, I tend to agree.
Neil"
To me, it seems the seed advocates are the ones that can't move on. Hell, most of them still spout seed sayings and truisms they learned 30 years ago like "the seed was about love" "I needed a kick in the ass" or "The seed saved my from my path of inevitable destruction" or some variant of that.
Perception is everything, perhaps.
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Your compass analogy is accurate, and probably wouldn?t be challenged. Another way of say that is changing another?s thinking- perceptions/values/morals.
What is being argued everyday on Fornits is HOW any particular program goes about removing the old and installing the new, if it?s even necessary, and if the means justify the ends. Shocking, that True North for you and others is that the way programs do this is useful and humane.
Changing one?s thinking/belief (software) is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be useful, particularly if the current programming runs something like, ?It?s okay to abuse kids in order to change their behavior/beliefs?. And you?re right, that thinking has been on the planet for a l-o-n-g time...despite overwhelming evidence that it?s not useful. It?s disrespectful. Teaches how to ACT, not BE. Teaches through modeling, that utilizing force/abuse to gain what YOU want, to trample on the will of others, is appropriate.
If we look at prisons, which have been around since Day 1, it?s clear that incarceration/abuse/punishment is not a useful motivator of positive change. If we look at the reports compiled on RTCs, we see the same results. High ?recidivism?, because it is NOT a useful or ?effective? model for helping another find THEIR North.
While it may appear to create a positive change in some, the question must be asked- what caused the change? A genuine transformation.of the person?s thinking in a positive direction, or a response to fear? Many of us believe the latter. The appearance of change doesn?t justify what was done to get there.
The primary fault with this method is FORCE. You can not force someone to adopt your values/morals/thinking. It?s a lazy/ignorant way of going about it, even if your intentions are pure.
If I call a friend and tell her I?m coming for a week without tobacco, and ask her to support me in giving it up, that?s one thing.
But if she and some other friends kidnap me (for my own good), denied me tobacco, told me how worthless I was, what a looser I was for smoking, how my smoking was hurting everyone who loved me. If they physically restrained me when I attempted to leave or showed anger about being held against my will. If they denied me food or time in nature based on my mood any given day. If they denied me contact with family, friends, and the outside world (triggers to smoke). If they forced me to read ?motivational? books and watch gory films showing the effects to tobacco use. If they forced me to clean trashcans and toilets with a toothbrush for righteous indignation?. We could go on?.. I wouldn?t consider them friends and would consider filing charges, bring a lawsuit, as soon as I escaped. And I?d conclude that they had a motive other than wanting to give me a hand with my ?addiction?- like taking care of their own needs/fear/selfishness. If my family was funding the ?abduction? they?d be included in the suit.
Now if they were people I loved and they hijacked me but treated me well, with total love and positive regard? that type of intervention, I MIGHT appreciate, ONLY if done well. I would NOT want this ?help? from strangers, because it?s my belief that a stranger can?t provide the type of environment or intervention that I would appreciate.
Programs can not provide the latter type of ?intervention?. Too many unskilled people who don?t genuinely care about or have a vested interest in their charges. Too many sadists. Too many pedophiles. You can?t legislate love and positive regard. Given that reality, what option is available to ?helpers? in their quest to change (help) others?? Behavior modification- heavy on punishment, abuse, intimidation, humiliation. And the only ?reward? being- adoption of the forced values/thinking of the captors in order to regain your freedom.
In conclusion, it?s the moral compass of ?helpers? that needs to be adjusted. True North for me would be the end to the pathologizing and the commodification of adolescence (kids in general) and the rush to rescue/disable parents rather than help them to become better parents. It would look like the masses rising up and demanding better policies that supported families and kids. Doing what serves their kids rather than following the status quo. A return to a more rational, pro-life, way of living.
And this says nothing of the thousands and thousands of teens who were abducted and warehoused, who NEVER were in jeopardy of hurting themselves, whose ?compass? never needed adjustment, whose parent thought their own compass was pointing North, when in reality it was pointed due SOUTH.
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Great post Deborah. That is a very useful analogy.
I think the whole problem is an 'ends justifies the means' mentality. 'This is for your own good' - how often has that been used for evil?
Isn't it interesting that it is the Right that wants to enforce morality against one's will. What about limited government? In Maoist China it was the Left.
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:nworthy:
Absolutely great post Deborah! How do we determine if the person or group that is determined to replace our compass or fix our morals, worldview, etc. has a compass that is accurate themselves? Who gets to say which way is north? The Inquisators were kindly trying to save the immortal souls of their victims. History & our world is full of those that 'know' what is right for everyone else and are willing to use force to bring it about. So many people want someone to direct them and tell them which way is up and this provides ready followers for those that seem certain of their own views. Ah, but 'question authority' was one of those hippie, druggie ideas that needed discarding in order to produce nice, compliant, conforming seedlings.
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YEARS later (I'm a little slow sometimes)...
Try this: you 'flunk' reality,
'they' put you in theSeed.
you 'flunk' theSeed,
'they' give up.
wtfit?
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Who are "they"? I have always wondered that.
Welcome to the forum 3X. I notice some of your posts. It seems you were there during the early days. Were you there after 1973?
Thanks for your participation.
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THANK-YOU for the acknowledgement. It's good to b somewhere.
I left in August, 1973.
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That is about the time I started. In fact, it was July of 73 in St. Petersburg. I was there for about 8 months and then quickly detached.
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Detached from what: theSeed; the world; yourself?:exclaim: Sorry -couldn't resist- I am an uncontrolable wise-ass. Part of my defense...
I'm still not sure who 'they' is. It changes as you go thru life.
When you're 16, 'they' are people who have control and use it 'for your own good'. If/When you grow into a position of control like that, i.e. become a parent/guardian, you become 'they'.
I've read alot of things that have stayed with me through my life: I see alot of it here 8-)
"A little power in the wrong hands is a VERY dangerous thing."
THAT one always makes me think of ART. Love the pool story, by the way.
I started on Andrews Ave (me&JU). Then one day, instead of Andrews, we went out to SR84. (My story can't go there yet. I still have Andrews stuff to tell!)
I remember JU. He GOT IT. Made me want to 'get it'. I never did. Looked for IT everywhere for my whole life too. There's a futility that comes with that 'cause at some point you realize you've always had IT...just needed 'the manual'... NOT an oldcomer and a group of strangers talking to me as if they knew me;
AS IF Art could really see into people. I wanted that to be true more than anything else. He could just look in my eyes and see what my problem was, I could fix it and we'll all be on our merry way.
Back then Art led raps still. And he was good. It was like being at a drive-in. He could see (when he looked@you, he SAW YOU) and EVERYONE else could see too, almost watch, like Art was a projector. I remember JU being stood by Art during group one time. They 'worked on him' a looong time. I remember being awestruck as I watched John begin to 'get it', as if things were dawning on him. He was so different after that.
The part of me that's stuck in the 70's would still take that from the Art Barker I saw that day, if it meant I'd 'get it'. He asked me once why I was soooo angry. Why didn't he know? Or worse: not telling me and did know? If you have a genuine gift (and I watched that, smelled that, could almost feel it myself) how could you not share it with everyone?
So at least 1/2 a dozen times Art and I were eye-to-eye. I don't think I was impressed. He regarded me suspiciously-always-and never did tell me anything 'enlightening'. That's when he lost me. Hell: little liar shattered me.
NOTE: Tho' acknowledged, I resist the 'impulse' to use words like magical and mesmerized.
..."shiny, happy people..." Sounded like a song about 'group'@open meetings :wave:
We will never really get to detach: our experiences prevent that, and they (the experiences :wink: ) will live at least as long as we do.
How does this stuff go on still? Aren't there enough of 'us' to make a dent even?
Be back ASAP
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Please do not mistake anything I post here as approval of or support for Art. Where I come from guys like him sell bridges. I don't own/want any bridges. These are the deluded ramblings of a former Seedling, nothing more. 8-)
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Please do not mistake anything I post here as approval of or support for Art. Where I come from guys like him sell bridges. I don't own/want any bridges. These are the deluded ramblings of a former Seedling, nothing more. 8-)
Actually, I detached from the seed, which caused my world to detach from me, and then led to me trying to re-attach to myself.
Only took about 20 years!
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Exactly.
30-odd years later, for me. As I said: 'I could've KEPT forgetting some of this!'
Re-hashing this junk. Doing this here, with you guys, will either save me a fortune or push me right over the edge.
bb
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Well, admittedly it isn't the right thing for everyone to go thru this. I will say it was the right thing for me. My seed experience had such a negative affect on my self worth and caused me to feel like such an outsider with 'normal' people, that dealing with it was ultimately one of the most important things I did as an adult
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Life may be short but it is also very wide, go around the yucky parts when you can
I love this one. 3xs
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the previous post is mine. :wink:
Y'all are gonna
I live w/my husband and son. They want me to stop posting here because my preoccupation w/'this Seed stuff' is bothering them :exclaim: yeahsureright
Art's attitude always made me feel less-than-worthy. I remember a psychiatrist (If that was true) came through group one day picking out people to speak with. He was denied access to me. Here's the answer he got: "...she just wants attention; there's no problem with her."
Now I 'get it'. Art had decided that was my game. How perfect his solution to ignore me was. How better for me to see how ignorant he really was.
After that I felt a bit disassociated from the group-different-in a place where everyone was the same-'cept me. Then came the documentary.
Here's when Art became theSeed. I guess they need political support and money and found a way to get it. He always was theSeed actually: without the 'person' of Art contributing, theSeed did eventually crumble, didn't it?
Suddenly, Art only led some raps. And he wasn't there all the time, anymore. The mood changed too: became institutional. By the time SR84 opened, Art led only a few raps ( always open meetings. I never even saw him at the end of my program.
bbasap
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I hope somebody will see this post. I decided today that I was going to try to find out if the Seed still existed. I looked up the Seed and found the Mustard Seed in St Pete and called up. It was a drug rehab, but not what I was looking for. I just wanted to reach out and touch someone. I have had dreams over the years about the Seed, still sing the song and smile. Today I was trying to picture the staff and what they would look like at 55-65 years old and if they were still there. I felt the Seed helped to change my life. It brought an awareness that I didn't have and understanding of ME. It helped me to sort out what was "truth" and find out who I was. It was my first opportunity to find that I could be me and could have friends. As I grew and learned from life's lessons, I was able to accept myself the way I am...well maybe just that I am weird and different, but that I don't have to try to fit in the "normal" mode. During the many years that past after the Seed I would tell people that I was grateful for the Seed, but that if I "screwed up", I would NEVER go back. I learned the lessons that have helped me to make choices for me and not to continue doing drugs and screwing up not only my life, but the lives of my children. They know I did drugs, but they also know that drugs are bad! I wonder what happened to Suzie, Amy (?), Billy the short guy with the blue VW bug. I remember the bountiful meals we had at the Vero Beach Seed and then we went to Ft Lauderdale and had the PBJ sandwiches Monday thru Friday lunch Ham & cheese for Fridaynite/Saturday lunch and tuna fish for Saturday nite and I didn't eat on Sunday lunch because someone had gotten food poisoning. Yes...Heck yes things were tough. We had to deal with the human part of the program (the bad part) pointing fingers at others before they could point them at you, being the kicked dog when the boss yelled at you. I remember standing up for hours down in Miami (after getting home late) as punishment for not "being honest". Going to bed at 2-3 am and then getting up at 6 to go to Hialeah to be dropped off before I was taken to the Seed.
I am glad someone else talked about being an outsider when the went back to visit. I finally had a ride to go down there from Cocoa and I was so excited to be able to visit...It was horrible! I was not welcomed. I swear that they had changed it to look more like a prison and I never checked back again...except in my dreams.
I also was there in 1974....April Fools Day, I went in got out just before graduation...talked to my boyfriend and got sent back. Finally graduated the program sometime before January of 1975.
I hope that I can find someone that was in Vero Beach and got transferred down to Ft Lauderdale. I really want to find another "Seedling". I have read some of the posts, but I intend to go through all of them. Thanks to all of you that have posted and those that will!!!! Liz