On 2004-03-23 13:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Sure Deb - what you say is true often enough to be valid; However, there are plenty of kids, who for no apparent reason, and with perfectly good parents, fall off the deep end. Deep end, defined as possibly a serious drug problem; the sort that leads to theft, lying and violence; with the natural consequences of losing educational options, employment, self respect, freedom; leading to guilt and more and more serious consequences. There are other possibilities, but this is the one I am most familiar with.
Irregaurdless of how worthwhile the parents of such a one might be; they are not listened to and their good counsel is not heeded.
So, it does/can make sense to get the kid out of the home and in the company of others they will be more inclined to pay some attention to. This is not necessarily warehousing; and not necessarily harsh, demeaning, degrading and abusive; although we all know Some are; this does not mean All are.
And, even when the situation really is one of the parents being cracked pots; it can still be very helpful and worthwhile for the kid to get them in a new situation, were they can see and experience another and hopefully more successful and joyful way to get threw life.
It seems to me the biggest problem we have to deal with, as far as reforming the troubled teen business, is separating the wheat from the tares.
I know, many of you disagree and I think I understand why. We are definitely coming at the problem from opposite ends of the stick. And yet, there are areas where we can agree and others were we can compromise; and I hope before to long the teen help business will be viable, safe and truly helpful, far more often than not; As opposed to now, when it seems the occasional good program is like a diamond in a puddle of muck. I know many of you think there is no such thing as a good or necessary program; this is were we disagree and must compromise, if we are to do any good against the really bad ones.
"
On 2004-03-23 21:25:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Deborah - you are so quick to throw stones***
No, I actually agree with Roger's take on what the primary issue is for many kids these days, "Entitlement".
Another way to say that is that parents gave and taught nothing. Didn't teach their children anything about reality, how to function in a family/group setting, how to negotiate/cooperate. Never expected them to participate in the care/maintainence of the home they share. I've known many. Children aren't born with a sense of entitlement. It is learned, they are conditioned... and by someone... usually parents. It sometimes works well provided the parent has the financial means to continue paying the bribe money to keep their kid 'on track'.
I depart with the methods of 'fixin the problem'. I think the parents need help as much or more than the teens. They haven't a clue what the 'real' needs of a human being are, apparently. I believe the teen is being scapegoated for the parents ignorance, neglect, whatever the case may be.
It's as absurd to me, as stripping the parent of their rights, incarcerating them until they 'get it'- how to be better parents. Wouldn't that be hoot? Especially for the run of the mill parent (like the run of the mill kids at ALA) who isn't beating or molesting their kids. I'm talking about the one's who 'spoil' their kids and then punish them for acting 'spoiled'. Do you see any connection there?
Labeling teens as "troubled" and warehousing them is equally absurd to me.
The teen gets shipped out because it's mom and dad who pay the program fees. They carry on with their merry life, usually more merry after the teen is gone, while the kid is incarcerated and treated like a prisoner.
"
On 2004-03-23 19:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Speaking of transporters ...
http://strugglingteens.com/archives/200 ... gmyth.html (http://strugglingteens.com/archives/2004/4/thugmyth.html)
Well, some of these outfits may be more kind, more gentle, more respectful but kids are still being awakened in the middle of the night and forced into institutionalized-style programs so Mom and Dad don't have to do the dirty deed, themselves.
:roll: "
Some teens are willing to get help, others will go under false pretense, and then there is the need for escorting.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
You can lead a camel to water but you can't make it stink (any more than it already does)
-- Job
On 2004-03-24 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
Ginger - Why slap the derogatory epitaph of Bible Thumper on here? This is a thread about a Christian Program. Doesn?t it follow that some expressing of Christian thought might be proper?
Besides, as you point out; back then, the common folk were illiterate and had to take the 'thumpers' word for what was in The Book. Today, we most all of us can read and so can find out for ourselves what The Book has to say. And so, "Thumping" is no longer necessary.
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
On 2004-03-24 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
I am personally not at all concerned that Craig is any thing less than honest and trustworthy and committed to the very best for the kids.
I do feel strongly, the students come first at ALA; and the fact they felt no hardship due to misappropriated funds was due to the sacrifice of the Roger's family and the rest of the ALA staff.
I can't prove this to you guys; but I do myself feel confident it is so.
And Ginger - I'm certain no one is pissing on my pants leg; but thanks for your concern
If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
On 2004-03-24 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
So Karen, what's a kid to do if their parent is a BORN AGAIN PROGRAM FANATIC?????? Pray that there really is a God to deliver them from such evil???
:flame:
"
Busy, curious, thirsty fly, Drink with me, and drink as I.
-- William Oldys (1696-1761): On a Fly drinking out of a Cup of Ale.
On 2004-03-24 19:39:00, warriorprincess wrote:
what can i do to make up for the awful mistake i've made by sending him there
Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger, 1916, Ch.9
On 2004-03-25 19:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen, as I understand your statement published on the PURE website, at some point after enrolling your son at Dundee Ranch (sight unseen?) you changed your mind and removed your son from the program. Not sure if your son came home or went straight to ALA but am curious as to how you heard about ALA and whether you took your son there or had him transported? Probing questions I know, but like you said in your own statement, where there is smoke, there is fire.
http://helpyourteens.com/news/january_2 ... etter.html (http://helpyourteens.com/news/january_2003_newsletter.html)"
On 2004-03-25 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Craig - I appreciate what you are saying. I agree that Deborah and many others are quick to judge. All of us make mistakes and I see you taking steps in the right direction to correct and learn from yours. What I don't get is your association with Karen Burnett. Was it a package deal if you employed her son? Have you not read the horrible, sick and twisted statements she's made on this board, and several others. She is not a person I would want my troubled child to have any experience of AT ALL. I have my reasons for my opinions, and they are mine and may not be shared with others.
"
On 2004-03-26 09:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Anon asking for full disclosure;
I have been an open book and given the account of our odyssey several times already. I do think the questions your asking are of a personal nature and your no more intitled to answers than the man in the moon; but the fact is, the whole story is already 'out there' and I'm not goin to endlessly repeat myself. Besides, I think your only hoping to find p.u.r.e. had something to do with it and so entangle me in with all that trouble. I think your w.w.a.s.p. or might as well be.
Deb, your perfectly right that the questions are valid and you have a right to ask them; no arguments there. If you aren't satisfied with the answers you've been given, then I guess we're just going to have to have this left unresolved between us. I'm sorry about that; as you know I like and respect what I know of you; tho as you also know, we have always disagreed about some things. If you would ever like to talk about any of this feel free to give me a call.
Anon who warns Craig of my sick and twisted posts; I'm sure Craig appreciates your concern and will take your warning under advisement.
You can maybe relax a little knowing the kids are not exposed to my "horrible, sick and twisted" philosophy.
It's odd that you state such a strong and hostile opinion; and then say the reasons for it are not to be shared. I wonder Why That would be?
Could it be your reasons would ID you; and your ID would discredit the validity of your opinion?
I think so. I think your w.w.a.s.p. or might as well be.
"
On 2004-03-26 14:52:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Dear Anonymous,
I respect your opinion of Karen Burnett, and I would hope that you would respect mine. I love her very much. She is very dear to my heart. She has always been supportive, encouraging, and diligent to love me and my family. I owe her a great deal. She has been there for me through thick and thin.
Her son Nate was never employed with Abundant Life Academy. After his graduation from our program he volunteered to serve other kids. Nate was more then an employee. He worked harder then most employees, and gave from his heart. Nate is one of the neatest kids I have ever known. I would do anything to support both Karen and her son Nate.
I would stand behind the Burnett's willing to go through the fire for them.
God bless,
Craig"
Visit report by Steve Bozak, Educational Consultant - June 2003 Tel: 518-373-8069
There is something to be said in taking the troubled teens far away from their home and friends. Here is a beautiful, well kept home in Mexico in a family atmosphere where these boys, aged 14 to 18, are kept from making bad choices as they all work on academics and maturing into well behaved young gentlemen. The strong Christian Evangelical atmosphere is just what some parents find necessary to get these boys back in the straight and narrow way.
The nearest airport is in Guadalajara and is just less then a two hour plane flight from Houston Texas. Craig Rogers and two boys met me at this small airport. The school was about a 30 minute drive away.
The two students were my guides. One from Hawaii and the other from Idaho. They happily showed me around the school and town. They introduce me to all 17 boys who were currently attending Abundant Life Academy. Even the new boy whom I met who had just arrived the day before and thought he wasn?t going to enjoy being here, seemed to be adjusting very quickly soon after he was rested and fed with the good food here. The other students paled up with him showing him the positive culture of the home and quickly he felt at home with his new friends and family.
I sat in on two therapeutic type meetings which seem to occur twice a day. All the boys and many of the staff participated in a discussion of issues and plans on how to improve themselves. The students all participated eagerly and politely. The strong Christian influence was quite obvious during these meeting and everyday life at the school.
The kids here were all having fun. The house had an indoor swimming pool, pleasant chatter among the kids and there was a nearby water park that the kids visited during my stay. There were many wireless high speed online computers for the students to used under good supervisor. The many staff often carried wireless telephones and the kids seemed to call home freely apparently when ever they wanted but the phone was always under control of the staff.
Many of the boys volunteered to scout the nearby streets and pick up trash Saturday morning. My two student guides showed me where they would get a hair cut down the street at the barber shop for $3.00 US.
The conservative town this school is located in was obviously strongly catholic with a large American population. Nearby was a very large lake and the neighborhood was very artsy with many galleries owned and operated by snow bird Americans. But the town was not a tourist town. The ex-patriots I spoke to were all retired professionals from the states.
The boys at Abundant Life Academy were all working on finishing high school. They were planning to go on to college from this high school. As I observed the boys in their daily lives, I could see that all the temptation from home were now too far away to be a distraction. The kids were positive as they supported one another to do the right things. This is obviously a positive peer culture acting therapeutically to mature these kids into productive citizens.
Steve Bozak CEP
So the court docs say that Sue's PURE, INC grossed approx. $300k.
So there is a theory on this since they don't really market that much - one would ask logically how they could do that.
Steve Bozak (an ed. consultant) would charge parents for a "consultation" and conveniently recommend a program which Pure is an affiliate or admissions co. So Steve takes money from parents.
Then Sue gets the contract signed and makes approx. $2000 (from what I understand it's $1000 to refer and $2000 if you actually get a contract signed). Of course the programs that they are involved with don't know what's going on. In a typical scenerio with an ethical consultant the parent would be referred directly to the program to contract saving the program $2000 approx. (some have been said to give up to $3000).
(which I figure why the hell not - the program charges the parent the same if they put them in or a place like PURE does - so why not spread the wealth).
Carey should sue Bozak and Scheff for this unethical practice.
Side note - Why shouldn't Carey take WWASP money?
Anyone with a logical brain cell in their head would say when faced by an attorney at $200-300/hr. telling you to take the money or receive a court order to give up info - why not save time, hassle, and make a little dough?
Here were the options -
1. destroy evidence (uh oh)
2. sell out (make money, and get revenge on sue)
3. hold out (no money)
It seems to me that the only ones telling her that she shouldn't have done this are Sue's chronies. Yes, I'm talking about you Colburns. You think your tone and manor about you doesn't give you away.
Back to the scam of PURE :
I wonder how deep it really goes. She could have 10 of these guys who she could kick back a portion of the admit money.
As for the thread on Berryman - He was working the msg boards to get business for PURE. He probably needed money because he couldn't get his fat ass out of bed to go to his cushy govt. job. I mean really, what does the man do for a living? Nobody knows! I'll tell you - he takes Sue's money.
Berryman, Scheff, Carey (for entertaining all the criticism about her - Carey - just say FUCK YOU! already), Bozak, etc are FUCK0's and Scam Artists (a fine one at that - I mean DAMN $300K!!!!!!!)
On 2004-03-25 07:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
I wish my memory were sharper; so I could give you a precise account of events and explain why the comments aren't as contradictory as they seem; but with out writing things down, I can't keep details in mind - they just evaporate into the myst of my once upon a time smoke addled brain.
Q. I simply ask, why is PUNISHMENT the solution with regards to the narrow group of behaviors which encompass illegal drug use....?A.Pharmaceutical Business, both legal and illegal, run by the same people either way, money coming to the middle from both ends. Bush.
Bill Gallagher
On 2004-03-26 19:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
Jesus is the only answer :eek:
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
On 2004-03-27 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
ALA is a Christian program for Christian kids. No one is forcing anything on these kids.
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
On 2004-03-27 21:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That was kind of my point.
When Karen or somebody talks about "Oh, maybe there could be a situation when using an escort is good"---well, that *might* be true someday if the rules are reformed so that the only escorts left in business are helping a willing kid get to prep school.
But as things are *now*, if someone has enough demand to be in business as an escort, their job is kidnapping kids. It's legal, but the essence of it is kidnapping kids and virtually all of what the current escorts do should be made illegal.
My point is that, yeah, she's right that such a "good" use could exist--in theory--but the current state of the laws and the business, no way in hell is a parent's use of an escort service the harmless hypothetical I was able to come up with.
I guess it was kind of an obscure point."
On 2004-03-27 16:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
But as to anything (Christianity) being forced on the kids - No, I don't think thats the case at all, even if they do happen to arrive with an escort.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.
America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg
It matters... just trust me. If you cant give me your name and the reason you ask, then I cant give you the answer. Dont like the terms? Then quit asking the question. Pretty simple.
On 2004-03-30 11:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Rogers, why does it matter who is asking? Does it make a difference in the answer?
You do not sound at all like a Christian in your postings. I wonder what Jesus thinks about how you respond to people. Didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek?
"But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. "
You don't sound anything like what you preach."
On 2004-03-30 11:50:00, Turd Of Wisdumb wrote:
"STOP REAPEETIN' THE SAME THING YE' PIECE O' DOGSHIT. YEW HERD TH MAN.
He AIN'T GON T' ANSWER YEW. :smokin:
On 2004-03-30 08:43:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Before I answer any question I want to know who is asking the question. I dont have a problem answering this question of yours. It is an easy question, clean and simple. But come out from behind your cloak."
We must create an atmosphere where the crooked cop fears the honest cop, and not the other way around.
Frank Serpico
On 2004-03-30 20:20:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Wow! Deborah... that was amazing. I truly enjoyed that. You do have some intelligence! I knew that you did but you were not demonstrating it very well. I think that I am beginning to tell when you are "high" and when you are not "high". Staying sober does make a difference. I am truly amazed and I stand corrected. I honor you this evening with a big fat attaboy! If you can stay in this vein I can converse with you, and respect you at the same time."
On 2004-03-30 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh for pete's sake, Craig .... don't you have a school to run?
:silly: "
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
On 2004-03-30 20:15:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"I think you asked whether or not you should do this forum thing full time? My answer was, "keep your day job!" You are not that good. But keep practicing sport... someday you might just make it."
The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
And you know what they say about idle hands!
On 2004-03-30 22:24:00, CraigRogers wrote:
They are not given all this freedom all at once, but as they prove themselves able they are given more opportunities to strive for great heights then they have ever had.
Additionally, we dont crame religion down the student's throat, we give them a chance to serve others in the spirit of Christianity and explore their Chrisitian heritage.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
On 2004-03-31 10:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Craig, you say you "compel" runaways to return.
Compel means "force."
So that answers the question. Kids placed in your program are *NOT* free to leave.
You also say "most" come of their own free will. That leaves the possibility that some don't.
You also say that ALA "doesn't hire" escorts. What you *don't* say is whether you admit kids whose *parents* hired escorts to get them there.
Bad Program, No Biscuit."
But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
On 2004-03-31 13:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger---I wonder how many of these kids it would be possible to protect from the programs just by informing them of their rights in various US states?
And while I know you're not a fan of laws as a solution, I do think it would be a partial solution to make it illegal to remove any US citizen over the age of twelve, whose parents live in the US, from the US without the kid's consent.
If the law was propagated to the airlines and border agents, and the kids were informed of their rights---kids being pretty computer savvy---most kids could be protected from the places in Jamaica and Costa Rica and such--you know, the places you generally have to fly to instead of drive to--if not from the places in Mexico.
"
May 12-13: Sowed Hemp at Muddy hole by Swamp. August 7: Began to separate the Male from the Female at Do - rather too late.
George Washington (Diary)
On 2004-03-31 15:16:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Get over it Ginger... we all know that you and Bill are the "unregistered user". You are not fooling anyone. They only one that can post from the administrator position is the admin, and that is you. Get some integrity!"
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
On 2004-03-31 16:11:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Thank you! Your response was exactly what I was looking for. It is amazing, you guys are like my little puppets. I pull a string and you dance the dance I want. I was having a blast before I realized how disrespectful I have been. I am truly sorry for taking advantage of you, for taunting you with truth and love. I know that you cant take it but I gave it to you anyway. I am a bad boy.
I feel bad that I have acted underhandedly. Dealing with you guys is like dealing with a small child (like taking candy from a baby). I felt like I had to coax you to reveal your true nature because you are so used to lying and hiding behind forums that you have forgotten exactly how scared and feeble your really are.
When I wrote that piece on Abundant Life Academy I knew that no matter what I say you are going to hate me and the things I stand for. I was hoping that your responses would descredit you, and they did. So, I had to bait you into a trap and you fell for it. It is kind of funny, and kind of sad at the same time. It is so funny how you can be so easily teased into showing your true hatred, and sad because you have to live with yourself every day. I can go away and never have to deal with you again, but you still have to deal with yourself everyday.
I feel bad because I have been having so much fun playing and toying with you at your expense. The power I have over you, to get you to dance around like fools is almost intoxicating. I am ashamed at my behavior. Last week I had no idea that I was going to upset so many people and have fun doing it.
However, I have discovered that it is not a good thing to play around with people who are so damaged. For that I now feel bad. It was cruel to tease people who cant help themselves, and who are crying out for support. I should have been there to help you through your childhood traumas and fears. I am ashamed at my lack of compassion for you. Your like the dirty dog that has mange, who has been discarded by the world, and beaten up by all those who pass bye. I was one more person who passed you by and kicked you.
I am going back to work now and I want to say that I am sorry for playing with you like a toy, only to discard you when I was finished with you. I know that deep down you are good people, only a little messed up. You will grow out of it someday, hopefully soon.
Again, I want to coach you before I go. I want you to know that you descredited yourself and your cause through the Fornits posts. I want to be able to send prospective parents of ALA to your site to show them how their child will turn out if they dont get them help now. You guys would scare any parent into sending their child to a lock down program out of fear of turning out like you.
Today I had a parent tell me that they are now convinced that they need to send their child to a program because of what they have read on the Fornits site. You guys scare them. It is just the outcome I was looking for. I dont need to discredit you, you do a perfect job of it yourself. So, now I feel good that I can leave you all to yourself and you can continue to discredit yourself without me. I would just get in the way.
As a matter of fact, we almost lost this prospective student today because the parent thought our program was to easy. After reading your material they were seriously considering a stronger locked down program.
I would bet that you guys are sending more kids to the WWASP type programs then any other organization I know. You are more effect then the marketing group of TEEN HELP. All I would have to say to a parent is, "do you want your child to turn out like one of those people that post on Fornit's?"
As a matter of fact, for you conspiracy buffs... I would not be suprised to find out that Ginger and the rest of you are really relatives of the WWASP ownership. You are their best marketing tool. It would not suprise me to find out that you were being paid by some of the more unscrupulous Teen Help type of programs to act as their poster child. I wonder how much that pays? I bet you guys are really profiteers on the backs of children and only pretend to be against WWASP and other programs like it.
Well anyway, I wish you all the best. I will not be seeing you anymore (unless it is to visit you behind bars). My short visit is up. However, I will be talking to Ginger in the near future. By the way, does your local CPS agency know about your pot use in your home? I happen to know that you homeschool your children. Do they know you smoke pot? I think that would be classified as child endangerment and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Until the laws change honey you are in danger of losing your children if you continue to smoke pot in front of your children. Or, do you hide it from them? What do you think?
I wish I could say that I will see you soon, but I cant! bye-bye Butcher.. :wave: . (you need to get a new act Bill) and bye-bye :wave: Turd of Wisdumb (Ginger, you need to get a new act too..) Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks :roll: . You are probably asking, "how did he know?"
http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml (http://cannabisnews.com/news/thread2298.shtml)"
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
god god Craig, from your writing it seems you have deep seated problems
On 2004-03-31 16:11:00, CraigRogers wrote:
Sorry to expose you guys as being the characters behind the masks . You are probably asking, "how did he know?"
What experiences and history teach is this-that people and government never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.
--G.W.F Hegel (1770-1831)
On 2004-03-31 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I've been trying to get in touch with you for awhile. Write me. Or call. You have my info.
KZ"
Save our planet; it's the only one with chocolate!
--Andi, domestic goddess
On 2004-03-31 16:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I can see were parents might be fearful of what they see here; but the problem with the premise is the scarry folks are the products of a program.
That is scarry.
I believe there are good programs. I believe there are kids who need them. But no matter how much research a parent does, a certain amount of trust is required to place a child in any program. And no program admits to being an abusive hell hole.
This is scarry.
Parents need to be able to make the decision, because the kid isn't thinking clearly; but then neither are the parents. They are stressed and angry maybe; both conditions that make smart people do stupid things.
This is scarry.
It would be much more helpful to everyone if ways and means to tell good from bad and ways and means to avoid letting emotions rule and ways and means to shut down and hold accountable the truly abusive, ect were hashed out instead of all this sniping at each other.
But maybe the issue itself is just to frought with emotion for the debate to take place without sniping. Appears to be the case.
"
On 2004-03-31 17:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know Greg, and you have a point, but again; there are good programs; and there are kids who need them. "
On 2004-03-31 20:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
The problem with the "teen help" industry is that it's a bad "solution" in search of a problem.
India Indicas, Mr. Peabody?
-- Sherman
BTW, if you log in and then go into your preferences, you can select "Store my username in a cookie for 1 year" to save the trouble of logging in.
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
You see, for over 30 years pretty much no one gave a damn. Drugs were bad, kids needed fixing, and these programs fixed them. When you complained it fell on deaf ears.
"
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
There is an answer, and His name is Jesus. God is calling parents of this nation to drawn a line in the sand, and begin to repent from our mistakes and allow Him to restore our children. It is not too late. We can stop the progression of the disease called ?entitlementitis!? What we first do is stop what we have been doing for a long time. Stop rescuing your child. Stop giving him/her excuses. Let him/her take responsibility for their choices. It is time to relearn, restore, and redeem what has been lost. We need to get down on our knees and ask for forgiveness and cry out to God for wisdom. We need to come together, as the Body of Christ, and make a clean cut from the ways of the world. We have to surrender, and get ready to make some sacrifices. True prosperity will come to those who seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness first. We need to return to the priorities, and that is to live a life surrendered to the will and purpose of God.
http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/lead ... ition.html (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/leadpage/definition.html)
For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
On 2004-04-05 18:39:00, Antigen wrote:
"Scooby-do-be-doo, we got work ta' do!
I was just poking around down here looking for an answer from Julie. Can I? Can I? If you're alright with it, I could even assign all of your anon posts to your username. `sup ta' you.Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"
Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
PERICLES (430 BC)
How fortunate it is that all of you critics have never had problems with your teens. That is a blessing from God. Unfortuantely, there are many of us who do have problematic teens and need the help offered by Craig and the others. Just remember, as you all sit and make judgement, God will judge you accordingly.
Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--
I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb
On 2004-04-10 19:53:00, Antigen wrote:
"Yeah, well most of us have been in this girl's shoes. You? And, btw, the people defending removal of this girl have been ALA and her parents. Past tense. She has already been removed; apparently against her will at 4AM.I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb
"
On 2004-04-10 12:28:00, Antigen wrote:
That's not what's going on at ALA. At ALA, the "students" are not allowed to send or receive mail from ANYBODY except their parents, and even that is a "priviledge" they have to earn.br>--
"
This is absolutely not true. I know of a student there who is receiving email from the several youth pastors at her church, as well as various family members and friends. So, where ever this notion came from that there is no communication, it is not true.
Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
On 2004-04-11 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You people are idiots, bottom line here is that the brother wants to talk to his sister. So who is going to make this happen except for his mom.
The parents of the girl must be realy paranoid not to let her own brother talk to her."
On 2004-04-11 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Remember, it is only children, who because they are children, can be forced to love God as punishment for "making bad choices".
On 2004-04-11 10:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"When my daughter broke her arm, I didn't have to force her to get it fixed. She wanted it fixed. It hurt. When the next one had a problem with dentists and needles, we went to 5 different dentists before she got over her fear enough to let them do their work. Did I insist? Yes. But I wasn't about to resort to brute force. And if some crack pot had tried to sell me on the idea that I should have her shipped off to Mexico against her will till she agreed to the treatment, I'd have told them to take a hike. Dental health is important, but so is mental health and personal autonomy, even for little kids.
On 2004-04-11 09:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Congratulations to Paige for fighting for the rights of her son to be able to have contact with his sister. Sounds to me that if the parents of the girl would just get a line of communication going with the rest of the family for this kid, "in Jail", everything would calm down. I wonder if the parents understand the ramifications of a law suit which would make every aspect of their life public knowledge? If they have nothing to hide no problem but if all of the rest of the family were against this doesn't that send up a red flag about the parents?"
On 2004-04-11 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:<
The kids who are there have had opportunity after opportunity to make appropriate choices. Just as Lucifer made a bad choice, so have these kids. The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
[/quot Who decides that the choice was wrong. The Parents? Maybe the parents were the reason for the bad choices the child made to begin with. Then the child suffers?
On 2004-04-11 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You people are idiots, bottom line here is that the brother wants to talk to his sister. So who is going to make this happen except for his mom.
The parents of the girl must be realy paranoid not to let her own brother talk to her."
Name calling is for those who have nothing intelligent to say."
On 2004-04-11 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Remember, it is only children, who because they are children, can be forced to love God as punishment for "making bad choices".
You are mistaken, as the Bible clearly shows that God does not force us to make any choice. He has given us free will, the ability to make our own choices. However, just because He has given us that freedom, does not mean that our choices are free from consequences.
The teens are given choices. They can choose to make appropriate choices, or they can choose not to. Anyone who has any parenting skills whatsoever knows that. Take a small child, for instance. You can tell the child the stove burner is hot over and over. Some children trust their parents enough to accept the parents teaching and trying to protect them from getting burned. Others do not and subsequently touch the hot burner and get burned. The consequenses of the choice of the first child in this scenario is the he doesn't get hurt. The consequenses of the choice of the second child is that he gets burned. Either way, it was their choice.
The kids who are there have had opportunity after opportunity to make appropriate choices. Just as Lucifer made a bad choice, so have these kids. The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
Have a blessed day."
On 2004-04-11 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Remember, it is only children, who because they are children, can be forced to love God as punishment for "making bad choices".
You are mistaken, as the Bible clearly shows that God does not force us to make any choice. He has given us free will, the ability to make our own choices. However, just because He has given us that freedom, does not mean that our choices are free from consequences.
The teens are given choices. They can choose to make appropriate choices, or they can choose not to. Anyone who has any parenting skills whatsoever knows that. Take a small child, for instance. You can tell the child the stove burner is hot over and over. Some children trust their parents enough to accept the parents teaching and trying to protect them from getting burned. Others do not and subsequently touch the hot burner and get burned. The consequenses of the choice of the first child in this scenario is the he doesn't get hurt. The consequenses of the choice of the second child is that he gets burned. Either way, it was their choice.
The kids who are there have had opportunity after opportunity to make appropriate choices. Just as Lucifer made a bad choice, so have these kids. The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
Have a blessed day."
The teens are given choices. They can choose to make appropriate choices, or they can choose not to. Anyone who has any parenting skills whatsoever knows that. Take a small child, for instance. You can tell the child the stove burner is hot over and over. Some children trust their parents enough to accept the parents teaching and trying to protect them from getting burned. Others do not and subsequently touch the hot burner and get burned. The consequenses of the choice of the first child in this scenario is the he doesn't get hurt. The consequenses of the choice of the second child is that he gets burned. Either way, it was their choice.
A vote for GW is a vote for America's Führer.
--Anonymous (it's best that way...)
On 2004-04-11 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Take a small child, for instance. You can tell the child the stove burner is hot over and over. Some children trust their parents enough to accept the parents teaching and trying to protect them from getting burned. Others do not and subsequently touch the hot burner and get burned. The consequenses of the choice of the first child in this scenario is the he doesn't get hurt. The consequenses of the choice of the second child is that he gets burned. Either way, it was their choice.
Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;
He who would search for perls must dive below.
Prolougue (from preface to
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
On 2004-04-11 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Neither you, nor I, nor any of the others who have so freely judge this mom has walked in her shoes. As such, none, except God in heaven, is able to competently judge her motives and her actions.
Praise God for the just God He is.
Have a blessed day.
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous
On 2004-04-11 16:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
Good God, what IS this world coming to when selling Jesus out is considered "responsible parenting"? Anon, I think YOU are the one who should be praying for mercy. Jesus is not your employer.
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
Anon, what if there choice is not to repent? Then what do you do? What if, given they have free will as you say they do, what if they chose not to believe in God.
What is your definition of a good choice? I mean, how will you ever consider their choices to be good, if their first choice is not to believe in God."
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
On 2004-04-11 15:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Stoning kids to death because God told you to is not obedience. It is a delusional disorder. Scary isn't it?
:scared:
"
On 2004-04-11 17:10:00, cayohueso wrote:
"
At least now I know what NOT to do with my kids.
On 2004-04-11 12:21:00, Paige wrote:
"
On 2004-04-11 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteWho decides that the choice was wrong. The Parents? Maybe the parents were the reason for the bad choices the child made to begin with. Then the child suffers?"
On 2004-04-11 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:<
The kids who are there have had opportunity after opportunity to make appropriate choices. Just as Lucifer made a bad choice, so have these kids. The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
On 2004-04-11 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-04-11 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:<
Name calling is for those who have nothing intelligent to say."
I find this perplexing that the only thing this person picked up on was the name calling? Why can't the brother talk to his sister? Is this possibly an infringement on his rights as a sibling?"
On 2004-04-12 07:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-11 15:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Stoning kids to death because God told you to is not obedience. It is a delusional disorder. Scary isn't it?
:scared:
"
Yes, and it has nothing to do with the situation."
Why yes Paige! You are correct! It is up to the parents to decide what will and will not be tolerated in their families!
On 2004-03-23 21:25:00, Deborah wrote:
"***Deborah - you are so quick to throw stones***
The teen gets shipped out because it's mom and dad who pay the program fees. They carry on with their merry life, usually more merry after the teen is gone, while the kid is incarcerated and treated like a prisoner.
"
On 2004-03-25 08:32:00, CraigRogers wrote:
"Dear Debra,
The answers to your concerns are in my original statement. God gave us two ears (in this case two eyes) and one mouth (in this case a keyboard). After reading your statements of judgment against me and Abundant Life Academy, I propose that you use your ears twice as much as you use your mouth. It might help your understanding.
From your correspondences on this forum IT SEEMS like you have been hurt deelpy and that your wounds have created a nasty pit of bitterness in your heart. It also SEEMS that you feel the need to spew out your bitterness on anyone you fell deserves it. However, as I said... IT SEEMS... I dont know you, and it would be very unfair of me to make such radical statement and judgments against you without knowing the whole picture about you. So, based on my extremely limited knowledge and experience of you it would be ridiculous for me to make assumptions about you. It would also be unfair. Perhaps you can learn something from this.
It is real funny that some people so easily make judgments against me and these very same people have absolutely no ability to do what I do. In otherwords, they offer no solution but feel empowered to judge and criticize the efforts of people who are doing something about the problem. Stop criticizing others and get out there and be a part of the solution!
Kids in the US are in trouble, and Debra you are not offering a solution. You just have complaints and judgments against those who are willing to give their all. I would love to give you my job for just one day. Come and work with me and see what I go through.
I was one of these "troubled teens". I put my parents through hell and back. In my case, my problems were not caused by my parents. It was my choices that caused my troubles. My parents did everything they could to help me, but ultimately I rejected everything until the consequences of my choices totally devasted me. For years I hated my parents for the things they did (in reality I hated myself for what I was doing to them but it was easier to blame them for my troubles). However, now... I am extremely grateful for all that they did. They are truly great people. I hope to be half the parent they were.
Also, I am not making money at this job (give me a break!). To me this is a calling. If I make any money I give it back to parents that cant afford help. As a matter of fact, I paid money last year to work for Abundant Life Academy. If you could spend just one day in my shoes I think you would get a whole different picture.
To help you understand the statements in my original statement.... Josue and Patricia were not hired to provide anything but the housing and food services. Meaning, they were the landlords and managers of the property. They were also supposed to provide for the food services (meals). I brought in my own professional staff to care for the students (teachers, mentors, supervisors, etc).
I am sorry that you feel compelled to be judge and jury and have no desire to know the facts. You are welcomed to give me a call, and, any solutions you might have to help us to empower our students would be greatly appreciated. We are always striving to get better.
As a matter of fact, we are erecting a home for some homeless people. We sure could use some labor help. Why dont you come down and help us help others. Spending your time being a part of the solution is much better then criticizing those who are a part of the solution.
God bless,
Craig Rogers
435-644-8297
"
On 2004-03-25 16:21:00, Deborah wrote:
"
You're not making money? You mean, profit? Who pays your living expenses- housing, food, medical, transportation? Independently wealthy? Ward of Christian Charity?
You perceive what you're doing as a "solution"- perhaps the only one, I don't- it's an option currently available to troubled parents. Therefore, I'd have to decline the invitation to work for your ministry. My 'calling' is in a different direction.
Kids in the US "are in trouble"?
"
On 2004-03-30 10:33:00, Deborah wrote:
"
You're dumber than dirt. I have a login and you didn't answer my questions.
On 2004-03-30 19:27:00, Deborah wrote:
"Craig wrote:
Thanks for the lecture professor! You sound just like a Program Director. However, instead of a school for troubled teens, you are trying to run a program for troubled teen helpers. The problem is that you are using the same style and techniques that the troubled teen programs use. I thought you were against that. The hypocracy comes out! It always does. ****
Craig dear,
I'm not a christian, so don't get the wrong idea here... but 'god' musta been speaking to my mother when she named me.
Damn, notice any resemblence? I proclaimed victory when you chose to default and ignore my questions.
"
On 2004-03-30 21:13:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Yeh, I'm an alcoholic and Aparicio is a drug abuser. ::cheers::
So many questions. So few answers. So many left to wonder."
On 2004-04-11 08:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThis is absolutely not true. I know of a student there who is receiving email from the several youth pastors at her church, as well as various family members and friends. So, where ever this notion came from that there is no communication, it is not true.
That sounds very cultish to me. The kids are being "brainwashed" to accept Christ. Forced beleif. If one is being held captive and only allowed to speak with those who share the ideas and philosophys of the group, insn't what cult behavior?
ALA sounds like a cult to me."
God bless you Craig. You and ALA are doing a great thing. Jesus was critisized for what He was doing to help others. Count it all joy when you are persecuted for doing what is right. The more He did to help others, the more He was persecuted, so I guess that means you are in excellent company!
On 2004-04-11 18:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThe difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
Anon, what if there choice is not to repent? Then what do you do? What if, given they have free will as you say they do, what if they chose not to believe in God.
What is your definition of a good choice? I mean, how will you ever consider their choices to be good, if their first choice is not to believe in God."
On 2004-04-11 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteWhat is your definition of a good choice? I mean, how will you ever consider their choices to be good, if their first choice is not to believe in God."
And there it is......you can't make good choices unless you believe in God?!?!?!?!"
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
On 2004-04-12 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteGod bless you Craig. You and ALA are doing a great thing. Jesus was critisized for what He was doing to help others. Count it all joy when you are persecuted for doing what is right. The more He did to help others, the more He was persecuted, so I guess that means you are in excellent company!
How you can compare Craig to Jesus is beyond me.
"
The difference being, is these kids have the opportunity to repent, be forgiven, and make good choices.
Anon, what if there choice is not to repent? Then what do you do? What if, given they have free will as you say they do, what if they chose not to believe in God.
What is your definition of a good choice? I mean, how will you ever consider their choices to be good, if their first choice is not to believe in God."
That is their choice. God gives us all free will to choose Him or not to choose Him. However, there is no eternal life apart from God. For you who do not believe this, are you willing to stake your eternal salvation on you being right and me being wrong?
However, there is no eternal life apart from God. For you who do not believe this, are you willing to stake your eternal salvation on you being right and me being wrong?"
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
However, there is no eternal life apart from God. For you who do not believe this, are you willing to stake your eternal salvation on you being right and me being wrong?"
The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.
On 2004-04-12 13:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Face it, without kids, the God Squad would be out of a job.
::bangin:: "
Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.
Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
On 2004-04-12 17:58:00, Deborah wrote:
"
"
...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
On 2004-04-12 12:14:00, cayohueso wrote:
"Please dont' throw Bible verses at me...I don't speak Bible. If there is a point you are trying to make, please state it.
"
On 2004-04-12 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-04-12 17:58:00, Deborah wrote:
"
"
My, are we defensive! Must have hit a nerve!"
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
Jesus reportedly hung out with the robbers, prostitutes, and murders. I don't recall him leading a campaign to round them all up and incarcerate them for their "bad choices".
. I give myself a blue ribbon for that, and to any other parent who follows their teen across the coals instead of shipping them off to zealots- religious or psychiatric.
On 2004-04-12 18:40:00, cayohueso wrote:
On 2004-04-12 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
oh, and have a blessed evening[/b]cayohueso on 2004-04-12 18:42 ]"
Profanity is a sure indicator of lack of intelligence.
On 2004-04-13 17:13:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Ginger,
Could you ditch two or three of the duplicate posts of this?"
On 2004-06-18 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:[ This Message was edited by: Devlin on 2004-06-18 14:54 ]
"well. i am a student in this program and i am sitting in the main office of the campus while i type this. 99% of the students here do not at all find it productive to be here, only a few students that have graduated have actually changed, and a great majority of us were brought against our accord by an escort service myself. I was brought by three in handcuffs and i have no previous drug, violence, or police problems. I was working two jobs at home and well on my way to becoming a productive role in society and was then forced here. that is all. thank you. :smile: "
On 2004-06-18 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"well. i am a student in this program and i am sitting in the main office of the campus while i type this. 99% of the students here do not at all find it productive to be here, only a few students that have graduated have actually changed, and a great majority of us were brought against our accord by an escort service myself. I was brought by three in handcuffs and i have no previous drug, violence, or police problems. I was working two jobs at home and well on my way to becoming a productive role in society and was then forced here. that is all. thank you. :smile: "
On 2004-06-19 10:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Most programs don't allow kids to have access to the Internet, correspond by email, post on discussion boards, etc. without supervision and heavy censorship.
The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
On 2004-06-18 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"well. i am a student in this program and i am sitting in the main office of the campus while i type this. 99% of the students here do not at all find it productive to be here, only a few students that have graduated have actually changed, and a great majority of us were brought against our accord by an escort service myself. I was brought by three in handcuffs and i have no previous drug, violence, or police problems. I was working two jobs at home and well on my way to becoming a productive role in society and was then forced here. that is all. thank you. :smile: "
On 2004-06-28 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't know who you are - but I am dismaied you would so attack an ALA student on an open internet board - Or anywhere else for that matter.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
On 2004-06-29 07:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
I don't know who posted the hateful remark and I have no way of even knowing if it came from ALA or a Troll; but irregardless - it is hateful and I am distressed the kid would be so treated. "
Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
This is evil.
http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/lead ... ition.html (http://www.abundantlifeacademy.com/leadpage/definition.html)