Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 10, 2006, 09:51:00 PM
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After having looked at the marketing of a lot of TBS and Wilderness programmes on the internet, I am noting a a common theme to most of them, which is that Adolescence is a pathology.
In the event that you kid has serious drug issues or is mentally ill then surely an actual specialist centre with doctors is the way to go. If your child has been a victim of sexual assault or some kind of abuse then seeing a sympathtic therapist and showing them as much love & support as possible may be just the thing.
But what if your kid is experimenting with drugs but not necessarily addicted, giving you way to much lip, wearing clothes that look like haloween costumes and challenging all the things you believe in like your religious and political ideology? What if you think their friends are little shits and they are sulky and moody. What if they have decided that football is lame & they dont want to play anymore but reading gothic horror novels is their thing now? What if they care more about TV than their school work? Or they are having sex with their boyfriend. Do these things really need to be "treated" as
an illness that needs to be tended to with either therapy or military level discipline?
If you believe these programmes it is.(even the ones that are not necessarily abusive)But why?
And if you want to encourage a greater sense of respect and moral accountability in your otherwise healthy kid doesnt telling them they "need treatment" let them off the hook. "I didnt call my teacher captain dickface because it was fun @ the time, i did it because I need help"!
Countries without similar programmes also have teenagers doing the same things and having the same fights with their parents, yet they do not necessarily all have higher levels or crime, sexual disease or general social disaster in their adults. Does this not indicate that most kids will just grow out of their teenage years and go on to be average reasonable citizens?
I am interested to know what people think
wouldnt all the money poured into these programmes be better spent going into community programmes which strenghten support systems for all parents who feel the family could use some assistance?
I am interested to know what people think.
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I didn't get "criminalizing" out ot the OP's writing. Still, I don't agree with the premise entirely, though some of hte issues dealt with are rather normal. One real problem is that a number of psych diagnosis are based on degree as perceived by the diagnoser or someone. Behavior X is normal unless it happens excessively, in which case the person has X-syndrome. But, there is no lab test showing bacteria for psych issues like for strep throat.
For a great many, if not nearly all [I've not done a survey to tell], I don't think the behaviors OP cites are of a degree that would justify a LT "placement". However, depending on degree and trend, something short term may well be a great idea -- beginning perhaps with a family camping trip - minus TV, etc.
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That is the thing though. Why would you take your kid to a shrink for anything that was not a potenital sign of mental illness (like depression)or a response to a specific traumatic event. Why would you not discipline your child for rudeness (not necessarily with a big can of whoppy ass either two springs!) or limit entertainment if they were not doing their homework.
What does it achieve to try and stop your kid from being sexually active except frustration on your behalf and resentment on theirs. Why is loosing interest in extra curricular activities so bad anyway? (a common thing on the list with BTS & wilderness camps)
why not just pick your battles a bit, count to ten, make yourself a nice stiff scotch and mutter to some other adult "I don't what's wrong with these bloddy kids today!" You will save yourself 30 grand & one daylook back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself. :smile:
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On 2006-06-11 06:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That is the thing though. Why would you take your kid to a shrink for anything that was not a potenital sign of mental illness (like depression)or a response to a specific traumatic event. Why would you not discipline your child for rudeness (not necessarily with a big can of whoppy ass either two springs!) or limit entertainment if they were not doing their homework.
What does it achieve to try and stop your kid from being sexually active except frustration on your behalf and resentment on theirs. Why is loosing interest in extra curricular activities so bad anyway? (a common thing on the list with BTS & wilderness camps)
why not just pick your battles a bit, count to ten, make yourself a nice stiff scotch and mutter to some other adult "I don't what's wrong with these bloddy kids today!" You will save yourself 30 grand & one daylook back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself. :nworthy:
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When did adolesence become a pathology?
Short answer- when it became politically desirable and profitable. Children are a large demographic ripe for pathologizing and commodification.
***You will save yourself 30 grand & one day
look back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself.***
Values have changed. There are no awards for parenting. People are rewarded for recognizing their ?weaknesses?, their 'incompetence' and seeking ?professional help?.
It took a few generations to steer the masses in that direction, but it has been a smashing success. It is hugely profitable to create a culture fraught with crises that requires paid intervention/treatment.
Baby is fed a ?formula? instead of human breast milk-followed by a crappy diet- which results in a plethora of medical problems.
Kid has a cold- given antibiotics, just in case.
Chronic ear infections & viruses- more antibiotics
Overuse of antibiotic- tubes in ears and treatment for overgrowth of Candida and IBS.
A few years of not having their physical or emotional needs met and ?problem behaviors? arise.
Kid is too active- give him kiddie cocaine.
Ritalin causes insomnia- add a sleep aid.
Kid not active enough (?depressed?)- add a SSRI- they claim to be able to dx depression in infants now- psych drugs from birth to the grave- extremely profitable.
Kid develops undesirable side effects- add another or two rx?s to the mix.
Kid doesn't respond to drugs and/or challenges authority- send them to a warehouse to have their behavior modified.
Gradually over the years, parents have been separated from inherent wisdom. It was replaced with the belief that they are incapable and must depend on ?professional? help for ever minor issue. They haven?t the skills to deal with the simplest problem because they were conditioned growing up, to focus all their attention on education and career, and leave the problems to the experts. They condition their own children the same way. Their teen children can?t perform simple functions like fry an egg or wash a load of laundry, forget managing money or balancing a check book. I call it "contributing to the disability of a minor". Why bother with the mundane chores of life, like cooking, cleaning, parenting, when you can pay someone else to do it?
Inherent parental wisdom was replaced with fear- fear of living, fear of dying, fear of adolescents. Zero tolerance replaced common sense.
With both parents working, many kids are raised from birth in institutions. Parents spend a couple of hours an evening with their kids, best case. Knowing nothing else, they distract, coddle/cater to, and entertain them all weekend to avoid any fuss. Having survived the weekend, they can?t wait to drop them off at daycare or school on Monday so they can get back to their relationships with adults. Seems perfectly normal that when the teen becomes a pain in the arse, that another institution is what?s needed. The commonly accepted thinking now is that a ?responsible? parent recognizes that their ?struggling teen? needs to be placed in a program.
Parents seem confused and apathetic. There are so many experts with conflicting opinions these days, they don?t know which one?s advice to follow. They allow rude, anti-social behavior, and avoid the ?No? word, for fear of causing their kid permanent psychological damage or being judged by their peers. They switch from method to method- no consistency. Kids know their parents haven?t a clue which results in confusion and a lack of trust. Having not spent much time with their kids, having never developed communication, they seem bewildered when they ?suddenly?- just out of the blue- have a ?struggling teen? on their hands.
I believe it was during the Industrial Revolution when the middle class was burgeoning that ?childhood professionals? came to be. Middle class families could afford homes with more than one bedroom. It was advised that children should be isolated in their own rooms and spent less time with the family unit, seen but not heard..., while working class kids were slaving in the factors making the middle/owning classes more wealthy. And of course, whatever the middle class does, the working class aspires to. It?s an experiment gone bad.
But parents have traveled so far down that road that they can?t find their way back
Welcome to The Machine?..
Moral compass...Who needs help?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =75#163147 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13258&forum=8&start=75#163147)
Interesting perspective-from religious persecution to psychiatric oppression
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#65038 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6961&forum=9&start=0#65038)
While I think these authors swing a bit too far to the other side, I agree with many of their perceptions and opinions of 'how we got here'.
One Nation Under Therapy:
How the Helping Culture is Eroding Self-Reliance
by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Satel
St. Martin?s Press (April 1, 2005)
Americans have traditionally placed great value on self-reliance and fortitude. In recent decades, however, we have seen the rise of a therapeutic ethic that views Americans as emotionally underdeveloped, psychically frail, and requiring the ministrations of mental health professionals to cope with life's vicissitudes. Being "in touch with one's feelings" and freely expressing them have become paramount personal virtues. Today-with a book for every ailment, a counselor for every crisis, a lawsuit for every grievance, and a TV show for every conceivable problem-we are at risk of degrading our native ability to cope with life's challenges.
Drawing on established science and common sense, Christina Hoff Sommers and Dr. Sally Satel reveal how "therapism" and the burgeoning trauma industry have come to pervade our lives. Help is offered everywhere under the presumption that we need it: in children's classrooms, the workplace, churches, courtrooms, the media, the military. But with all the "help" comes a host of troubling consequences, including:
?The myth of stressed-out, homework-burdened, hypercompetitive, and depressed or suicidal schoolchildren in need of therapy and medication
?The loss of moral bearings in our approach to lying, crime, addiction, and other foibles and vices
?The unasked-for "grief counselors" who descend on bereaved families, schools, and communities following a tragedy, offering dubious advice while billing plenty of money
?The expansion of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder from an affliction of war veterans to nearly everyone who has experienced a setback
Intelligent, provocative, and wryly amusing, One Nation under Therapy demonstrates that "talking about" problems is no substitute for confronting them.
http://www.onenationundertherapy.com/ (http://www.onenationundertherapy.com/)
Review of One Nation Under Therapy:
One Nation Under Therapy addresses the issue of pathologizing childhood, and among other things describes how middle-class, suburban parents are trying to INSULATE CHILDREN AGAINST FAILURE and against the NORMAL PROCESSES, e.g., grieving, sadness, etc., of life. The book addresses adhd and the push in some therapeutic circles to keep boys from behaving as boys do. Pathologizing childhood means to keep the child from expressing his/her natural curiosity, to discourage play and expect the child to focus inward upon their feelings, working from the assumption that all children suffer from a pathology or mental illness or bad parenting practices until they can run the gauntlet and prove otherwise.
Well, you got me going with that one ...
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On 2006-06-11 01:36:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I think the difference is America has over-compensated for its adolcent problems by criminalizing the hell out of everything. Now there are laws on the books moderating just about every imaginable facet of juvenile behavior. What instigated this movement to turn children into mad dog killers I have absolutely no idea.
I would wager to say alot of it comes from the typical knee jerk reactionary politicians looking to score votes by appearing tough on crime. God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author
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This focus isn't just on children, it is on everyone. Enter the Nanny State.
How can we expect children to grow up when everyone is treated like a child? If something is slightly risky or unhealthy, just ban it. Make kids wear helmets all the time. Make adults wear them, too. Make everyone use seatbelts. Ban any product that may cause harm. It's hard to argue against safety in a world where safety is more important than individual freedom.
The same goes for trust. Put metal detectors and cameras everywhere in the schools and drug test kids at regular intervals to keep them out of trouble and all you really do is instill a culture lacking in trust and respect. These kids will grow up expecting their employers and government to monitor all their activities, tell them what to do, and protect them at all times. They will never grow up.
I keep hearing the word "accountability" being thrown around these days. You never heard this word so much 30 or 40 years ago. The problem is that the accountability game has really become the blame game and no one is pointing at themselves. Everyone wants to hold the other person, or kid, accountable while making lame excuses or lying to protect themselves. It's disgusting. And, it goes right to the top of our corporations and government.
And, finally, where the hell did this zero-tolerance bullcrap come from? Kids are kids and don't automatically know everything. You have to teach them. Of course they will break rules and test limits. They are supposed to. Tossing them away or harshly punishing for the first mistake is just stupid.
Where have all the adults gone? What happened to common sense?
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On 2006-06-11 15:47:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
How can we expect children to grow up when everyone is treated like a child? If something is slightly risky or unhealthy, just ban it. Make kids wear helmets all the time. Make adults wear them, too. Make everyone use seatbelts. Ban any product that may cause harm. It's hard to argue against safety in a world where safety is more important than individual freedom."
I tend to see these things, not as safety driven, so much as profit driven. The insurance industry wants us to wear helmets and seat belts because accidents, paying claims, cuts into their profits.
Helmets and seat belts have to be produce, which fuels the economy.
The gov't could care less if you die tomorrow because you sustained a head injury while riding your motorcycle without a helmet, or weren't wearing a seat belt. They do care about protecting the insurance company's profits.
We don't get to choose which risks we take or even how we want to die (without consequence),if it costs anyone money or violates the prevailing religious values.
If the government were genuniely concerned about the safety of citizens there are many unhealthy things they would ban.
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According Professor Mike Males of UC Santa Cruz the notion of adolescence as pathology is rooted in the inherent insecurity and latent bigotry of the baby boomer generation.
His argument is that young people represent the last identifiable demographic group that lack a strong political voice. There is no one to speak up for them and therefore they are a safe target for demonization every time a politician needs to score points from the law and order brigade.
This allows middle American Middle class middle aged baby boomers to deflect attention away from their own shitty behaviour.
It's more complex than that naturally but that's a precis.
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
--Unknown
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"I am interested to know what people think
wouldnt all the money poured into these programmes be better spent going into community programmes which strenghten support systems for all parents who feel the family could use some assistance?
I am interested to know what people think."
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You are absolutely right. The money would be much better spent in community programs. Unfortunately, the the vast majority of residential programs for teens are owned by for profit corporations, so it's all about the money, not the kids. Community based programs would have to be staffed by professionals, not uneducated minimum wage babysitters, which would remove the profit motive from the picture. These places are not going go away voluntarily while business is booming. Exposing the ineffectiveness and abusive practices of these programs is the only way they will ever disappear.
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I see so many other parents my age that have begun to act just like my/their parents did 15 years ago. Hasnt anyone learned anything? Dont they remember what it was like? Dont they remember the things that did and did not work? Apparently not. I REMEMBER all of the things that were unhealthy for my parents to do, I REMEMBER how I made bad choices and felt bad about myself because of their lack of accountability in teaching me about real life and the things in it, instead just sweeping it all under a rug as if it didnt exist. Am I the only person my age who REMEMBERS at all? I try everyday to make sure I form my parenting around the idea that I wont make my parents mistakes. I wont refuse to speak to them about sex or drugs or violence. I will talk to them about making proper choices, not just demanding they make MY choices. I am stunned at the total denial by people of my generation in making a change to fit the times when it comes to raising their kids. Its really sad. It makes me feel like we have a whole new generation to fear for being placed into these programs.
I also agree that the lack of personal confidence in parents has all but vacated the collective conciousness. Mothers who will let their children scream for hours in hunger because the doctor demanded they only feed them on schedule. I could go on and on about the helpless attitude mothers exhibit when it comes to newborns specifically. They abandon all sense in favor of a doctors orders. And when it doesnt work? They just think something esle is wrong with the kid. Never that their pediatrician might be a frickin moron. Its a sorry state of affairs.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:52 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:51 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:51 ]
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On 2006-06-11 18:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
I tend to see these things, not as safety driven, so much as profit driven. The insurance industry wants us to wear helmets and seat belts because accidents, paying claims, cuts into their profits.
Helmets and seat belts have to be produce, which fuels the economy.
The gov't could care less if you die tomorrow because you sustained a head injury while riding your motorcycle without a helmet, or weren't wearing a seat belt. They do care about protecting the insurance company's profits.
We don't get to choose which risks we take or even how we want to die (without consequence),if it costs anyone money or violates the prevailing religious values.
If the government were genuniely concerned about the safety of citizens there are many unhealthy things they would ban.
"
Actually, these laws came about because vocal activists pushed them, they are hard to argue against (Who is against safety?), and politicians jumping on the bandwagon gained votes for doing so. Yes, insurance companies profited.
In fact, the legal justification for these infringements on personal freedom came through the rationalization that their hospital bills would increase costs for the rest of us.
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On 2006-06-12 11:41:00, Carmel wrote:
"I see so many other parents my age that have begun to act just like my/their parents did 15 years ago. Hasnt anyone learned anything? Dont they remember what it was like? Dont they remember the things that did and did not work? Apparently not. I REMEMBER all of the things that were unhealthy for my parents to do, I REMEMBER how I made bad choices and felt bad about myself because of their lack of accountability in teaching me about real life and the things in it, instead just sweeping it all under a rug as if it didnt exist. Am I the only person my age who REMEMBERS at all? I try everyday to make sure I form my parenting around the idea that I wont make my parents mistakes. I wont refuse to speak to them about sex or drugs or violence. I will talk to them about making proper choices, not just demanding they make MY choices. I am stunned at the total denial by people of my generation in making a change to fit the times when it comes to raising their kids. Its really sad. It makes me feel like we have a whole new generation to fear for being placed into these programs.
I also agree that the lack of personal confidence in parents has all but vacated the collective conciousness. Mothers who will let their children scream for hours in hunger because the doctor demanded they only feed them on schedule. I could go on and on about the helpless attitude mothers exhibit when it comes to newborns specifically. They abandon all sense in favor of a doctors orders. And when it doesnt work? They just think something esle is wrong with the kid. Never that their pediatrician might be a frickin moron. Its a sorry state of affairs. "
Exactly, any asshole can write a parenting book just like any asshole can write a diet book. Neither is worth the paper they are printed on. Toss them.
Engage you kids on their level. Play with them on their terms. Listen to them. Hug them. Be excited by their presences. Ninety-nine percent of behavior problems would just disappear if people told the pop-psychologists to fuck off and just got real with their kids. If a kid knows they're loved and valued, they will do okay.
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Im curious 2 springs. How many kids that you worked with were truly disturbed or criminal in comparison to just sent there for being too much of a handful for their parents? Were any sent by the justice system & if so did they mix with the non criminal kids?
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tough titty. [ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-13 20:09 ]
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RFT, you're breaking character.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-13 20:10 ]
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I am always surprised that parents do not put 2 and 2 together when their kid is not progressing in these programmes. Of course they are going to keep your kid there longer if fees are charged on a monthly basis. It is no surprise that public programmes are committed to the kid's improvement as they are not judged on profit. The thing is no mainstream Private school that charges big bucks uses the kids failure to advertise why they should stay. The whole point is that the kids is happy and doing well. I am yet to read a mainstream report card that goes like this:
"mike is failing all subjects, wont muck in on the sport field and dislikes the other kids with a passion. The feeling is pretty much mutual. it has been this way for 6 solid months with no sign of improvement and we feel he is in short a little turd. Please give us another 150000"
Why does this mode of thought work in BTS schools?
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Okay - you asked about what people thought....
I agree that there are a lot of chicken sh-- parents out there who are looking for a quick fix and thus are lulled into a sense of relief by the politicians looking for a vote and the scheisters (or however you spell that) looking for a buck.
However, there are too parents that are terrified that the next time their kid sneaks out and does something dangerous or stupid that it won't be the other kid's parent at the door the next morning or even the police with the kid in tow, but the police with no one in tow and it's time to visit the morgue.
I don't know how I would live would myself if keeping my son in this neighborhood--fully believing that he's currently dealing drugs to his friends--leads to one of his friends overdosing. How do I face that mother, my neighbor, my friend... I'm not talking about embarrassment here - we've all got warts - I'm talking about my responsibility to my community.
We have tried psychiatric help, family therapy, individual therapy, intensive outpatient treatment, short term residential treatment... you name it. We have been trying this for years! I am not a whiner... I know this sh-- is hard and we've been working it hard, but now he's stealing from his 9 year old sister!
I wholeheartedly agree that the fact that there is a "troubled teen" industry is messed up on several levels and that many parents need to lighten up a lot about what is and is not pathology. At the same time, the reason that those programs are there in the first place is that there are a lot of us out desparate for help.
I am not a quitter in this - the reasons I'm investigating a wilderness experience are not becuase I've bought a bill of goods from a program or my politicians (I'm from Texas and they're all full of cr-p anyway). I love my son. He's an amazing kid... and I'm terrified.
Just thought I'd throw that in...
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I doubt that you are for real.
Assuming you are, the next logical step is either serious psychiatric help in a state mental hospital, or just let him get arrested. Either alternative is less harmful.
What does he say when you talk to him about these things?
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On 2006-06-15 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay - you asked about what people thought....
I agree that there are a lot of chicken sh-- parents out there who are looking for a quick fix and thus are lulled into a sense of relief by the politicians looking for a vote and the scheisters (or however you spell that) looking for a buck.
However, there are too parents that are terrified that the next time their kid sneaks out and does something dangerous or stupid that it won't be the other kid's parent at the door the next morning or even the police with the kid in tow, but the police with no one in tow and it's time to visit the morgue.
I don't know how I would live would myself if keeping my son in this neighborhood--fully believing that he's currently dealing drugs to his friends--leads to one of his friends overdosing. How do I face that mother, my neighbor, my friend... I'm not talking about embarrassment here - we've all got warts - I'm talking about my responsibility to my community.
We have tried psychiatric help, family therapy, individual therapy, intensive outpatient treatment, short term residential treatment... you name it. We have been trying this for years! I am not a whiner... I know this sh-- is hard and we've been working it hard, but now he's stealing from his 9 year old sister!
I wholeheartedly agree that the fact that there is a "troubled teen" industry is messed up on several levels and that many parents need to lighten up a lot about what is and is not pathology. At the same time, the reason that those programs are there in the first place is that there are a lot of us out desparate for help.
I am not a quitter in this - the reasons I'm investigating a wilderness experience are not becuase I've bought a bill of goods from a program or my politicians (I'm from Texas and they're all full of cr-p anyway). I love my son. He's an amazing kid... and I'm terrified.
Just thought I'd throw that in..."
If I caught my kid selling drugs to other kids, and I could not get him to stop, I'd be the first one to call the police and help them set up the bust. A program would still never be an option.
In fact, I'd try to figure out who my kid's supplier was so I could have the police take them down, too.
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I believe you and i am sorry about your son. It sounds like his problems go way beyond being a normal teenager or just experimenting. Any one in your shoes would be worried sick. It sounds like your kid needs to be in an environment which treats this issue medically first and then with some kind of proper rehab couselling. Why look @ wilderness programmes? Why not put proper doctors in charge of the boy? It sounds like he is dealing and stealing to support a habit. Deal with the medical issues and get him the follow up counselling in a proper non abusive residental medical facility. While he is living there call him and write him often. If you can visit often. Do not send him any place that limits family contact or sends the message that he no longer deserves family support. Many websites for wild therapy advertise the idea that in the beginning the right to communication is denied with the implication that this needs to be earned back. Then when he is rehabilitated clip him about the ear for stealing from his little sister. Wilderness therapy websites really agressively market to parents who are worried sick. They dont care what the worry is.
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On 2006-06-15 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay - you asked about what people thought....
I agree that there are a lot of chicken sh-- parents out there who are looking for a quick fix and thus are lulled into a sense of relief by the politicians looking for a vote and the scheisters (or however you spell that) looking for a buck.
However, there are too parents that are terrified that the next time their kid sneaks out and does something dangerous or stupid that it won't be the other kid's parent at the door the next morning or even the police with the kid in tow, but the police with no one in tow and it's time to visit the morgue.
wah,wah,wah. Stop with the pathetic, oh me, I'm totally fucking helpless pattern/habit. How the fuck is your kid getting out?
Ya know what my parents did? They planted Pyracantha bushes by the windows of mine and my sister's rooms. They don't call it "firethorn" for nothin. Pyracantha is the terrified parent's friend, get to know her. Ain't NObody coming in OR goin out. By the way, they NEVER mentioned why they 'chose' pyrachanta bushes, and as kids, it never ocurred to us that it was intentional. We thought they chose it for the pretty red berries. Hah!
They also took the springs off the garage door, cut out a window and door, painted the floor, let us decorate with flourescent flowers, installed a black light, put in a record player and a pool table. They rarely had to wonder where we were. And all the neighborhood parents knew where THEIR kids were.
Parents have SO many options other that a friggin program.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-16 21:04 ]
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Yeh, program parents hold these facilites in such high esteen when there's nothing magical about it. There's not a damn thing the program does that a parent who condones such methods couldn't do at home and save tens of thousands of dollars. Why don't they? What motivates them to 'hire it done'? The answer to that question should give a good indication as to why the kid is really at a program.
Heard a psych author on NPR recently talking about happiness...think his book is called Stumbling on Happiness. He surveyed a large number of parents on what made them happy. At the top were the expected, Spending time with partner, sex, more money and the goodies that come with it.... Parenting was way down the list, right there with house cleaning.
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and once again we come down to the shitty, selfish behaviour of the baby boomer generation.
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Thanks for believing me... unfortunately, I am for real. Unfortunately, we have tried the residential treatment facility already and, like many other short term programs, it worked for a while, but now (6 mos later) we're right back where we started. The irony is that he's just bad enough to be in the "not normal adolescent misbehavior" but he does not have a clear psychiatric diagnosis--and we have seen three shrinks about this and at least 4 psychologists, I'm not even exagerating.
When he was at the residential treatment program, most of the kids there were violent and dangerous, they were a much bigger threat to him and the staff than the other way around (his report). He has trouble with school work although he has a superiour intelligence, has trouble dealing with stress although he has lots of friends... it's just a huge mystery. A lock down treatment facility is not what he needs, he needs to be somewhere, away from the distractions of life, with people who can help him figure out what the HELL is going on.
We are working very closely with an educational consultant who is a clinical psychologist herself, our family therapist, and all of the professionals who have worked with him to identify the best course of action. I understand the point about telling the police, but having a criminal record that starts at the age of 15 in the state of Texas is a *really* bad idea and if there is no proof, the police can't do anything anyway--we've investigated it.
There are no easy answers with all of this--I've dealt with some shit in my life, and this is by far the hardest. You all (y'all) might want to consider cutting some of the parents some slack. Information (real information) about the pros, cons, and choices available is the way to prevent kids from being hurt in these type of places...
Thanks again for the responses.
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Oh and by the way - when he came back from the residential treatment, we did convert the garage into a room for him and his friends (a neighbor donated a big screen TV) and he sneaks out the back door, not his window. Is your suggestion that I make a prison cell out of his room so we can sleep at night? That would go over well with the fire chief. Or maybe you think we should stay up all night and make sure he doesn't leave - oh wait, that's right, he leaves anyway when I've caught him.
My suggestion, get off your high horse and get down in the trenches with those of us fighting this fight. Easy to make judgement, hard as shit to know what to do.
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I think it's time to just let him go.
Have you researched emancipated-minor statutes?
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Actually, for this one I'm going to be a bit more detailed than that.
The problem, as I see it, is one of disbelief. He doesn't believe in you, doesn't believe in the psychiatrists. I'll bet dimes to dollars that he sees you as obstacles to his life.
The situation as it stands is untenable. He's going nowhere fast. The best advice is really just to let him go. You should encourage him to get a job and enter the real world as an adult. Yes, he'll survive the experience. Make it clear to him that if he does leave, he won't have to put up with you or any psychologists again.
Does he realize that he really can get in trouble with the law? This one is a lack of foresight, not just a problem of morality. The fact that he's stealing from his little sister- his little sister!- represents a serious problem of morality and you should make it clear that you're not going to abide that.
Have you considered getting him to read this thread? The fact that we're all here talking behing his back (as it were) is probably related to the reasons he doesn't trust you.
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On 2006-06-17 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is your suggestion that I make a prison cell out of his room so we can sleep at night? That would go over well with the fire chief. Or maybe you think we should stay up all night and make sure he doesn't leave - oh wait, that's right, he leaves anyway when I've caught him."
Just curious how you think programs prevent them from running? Many (most?) violate fire code by locking the windows, if the rooms even have windows. They have alarms on the doors and nightwatch.
And yes, all could be done at home. Why would you hire it done?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#14071 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=523&forum=9&start=10#14071)
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I agree to just let him go. Perhaps he is aware on some level that your desperation means that he will always be bailed out. He will either get his act together or he will learn the hard way. If he gets a job he may meet a whole new crowd of people, or he may realise that working for minimum wage is hard and thankless and he needs an education. Perhaps he is just not academicly interested so should be encouraged to look @ a trade (this worked for Jamie Oliver after all)
Talk about the fact that you are always available to talk and he is always welcome to come home for dinner but if he wants to be an adult he needs to find a job and a place to live by himself and let him go. Set a specific deadline and follow through. Let him know that if he genuinely is willing to go back to some form of education & to stop with the criminal behavoiur he can live with you. I am not suggesting that he be cut out of the family if he does not comply because to me that is one of the worst things about some of the programmes.
But if he wants to follow a criminal path you cant stop him so just dont condone it. At the end of the day when kids reach their late teens their personalities cant be "changed"
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They also took the springs off the garage door, cut out a window and door, painted the floor, let us decorate with flourescent flowers, installed a black light, put in a record player and a pool table. They rarely had to wonder where we were. And all the neighborhood parents knew where THEIR kids were.
I cant agree with this more as a general parenting technique. I am one of 5 & there was never a time in my parents house when it was not full of kids. Because it was a large family anyway the fridges were always full of soft drink and food, There was always a sport happenning in the back yard and someone was always in the pool. Our friends were familiar faces and if their parents would drop by to pick them up there was usually a beer or a coffee on offer. Who knows? spending the programme fees on a pool and a whole lot of sporting equiptment when a kid is 10 may save everyone a lot of heartache years down the track.
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This is where FFT (see thread elsewhere here) or MST (multisystemic family therapy) would be an excellent choice.
Arresting the child is an insane idea-- with the drug laws here, he could be sent to jail for decades. With a record, his odds of recovery are dramatically reduced. Plus, the violence etc. of jail can produce increased drug use later.
Wilderness is no more likely to solve the problem than a re-run of psychiatric or addiction care is-- the older he gets, the more likely he is to change, and people will often "credit" the last thing tried with the success when what really happened is that he aged out.
Wilderness also has the problem of being poorly regulated and potentially harmful.
However, a practical suggestion re: the dealing. he's gotta keep the stash somewhere. if you ensure that that is not your house, you will crimp that style.
also, if he is endangering your younger kids, you have every right to protect them by expelling him from your home, whether to treatment or elsewhere.
patience and persistence is called for here-- and if you still feel you must resort to wilderness, ensure that you choose a program that allows maximum contact with the child, has the highest number of licensed professionals, doesn't shill for extended treatment in a "therapeutic" school afterwards (you'd be amazed at how many are aimed at recruiting into longer stuff), doesn't focus on "tough love," allows decent equipment and has a great reputation.
That said, there have been deaths in the programs with the best reputations and these deaths have been caused by assuming that kids' medical problems are 'fake' or 'manipulating.'
see helpatanycost.com for additional info.
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***You ever consider charging the kid rent, and make him cooking his own meals?
Oh, no, TSW. :rofl: That would be abusive.