Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 08, 2006, 09:17:00 AM
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I am interested in starting a long term study on the kids who go to TBS which looks @ their attitudes to the experience as well as their mental health & whether (where appropriate) or not they went back to having drug or criminal issues. i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Do we have any psycholigist or interested parties who could help? Also does anyone know of how to reach many of the kids who have recently graduated. Obviously some post here but I am looking @ a wider group. Many for instance feel one way about their experiences @ first but eventually change their mind.
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i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Programs haven't been exposed to scientific scrutiny for the simple reason that they refuse access for the purpose of clinical trials. You see, they have plenty of anecdotal evidence that shows that they don't work and many studies show the same, but to allow a study of their particular program would be tantamount to direct proof that they don't help anyone. They won't allow studies to be conducted.
I personally contacted ASR (Academt at Swift River, an Aspen Education Group facility) to inquire about performing a clinical trial and I was told "we don't allow that."
Good luck.
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On 2006-06-08 06:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am interested in starting a long term study on the kids who go to TBS which looks @ their attitudes to the experience as well as their mental health & whether (where appropriate) or not they went back to having drug or criminal issues. i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Do we have any psycholigist or interested parties who could help? Also does anyone know of how to reach many of the kids who have recently graduated. Obviously some post here but I am looking @ a wider group. Many for instance feel one way about their experiences @ first but eventually change their mind.
"
You can find many survivors on MySpace. For instance, one of HLA forums just hit 200 members. I would encourage you to contact the list owner rather than post directly to the membership. They don't take to kindly to that, and are justifiably skeptical of people's intentions.
If you are serious about this you might put up a website with a questionaire that survivors can fill out. Not sure how you would confirm they actually attended any given program, but I'm sure that could be figured out.
There was a person doing such a study a few years ago, in conjunction with a University, if memory serves, but I don't know what became of it. The questionaire (which I still have) was too lengthy, and some important questions weren't asked, imo.
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On 2006-06-08 11:46:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Programs haven't been exposed to scientific scrutiny for the simple reason that they refuse access for the purpose of clinical trials. You see, they have plenty of anecdotal evidence that shows that they don't work and many studies show the same, but to allow a study of their particular program would be tantamount to direct proof that they don't help anyone. They won't allow studies to be conducted.
I personally contacted ASR (Academt at Swift River, an Aspen Education Group facility) to inquire about performing a clinical trial and I was told "we don't allow that."
Good luck.
"
You know full well that the bit about "to allow a study of their particular program would be tantamount to direct proof that they don't help anyone. They won't allow studies to be conducted." is NOT TRUE. There are several studies that do show individual program effectiveness, including studies conducted by third-parties. But you don't accept them because you claim they are biased. The real problem is that they don't support your world view.
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The programs are great. :tup:
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please no more trolling yourself. [ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 18:25 ]
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I have a research and statistics background and would be willing to help with your study. But I'd need to know who I'm helping. Post your username or create a new username so that I can email you.
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Hi there.
Charley and I are working on this. Would the original poster drop me a line and we can compare notes.
[email protected]
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On 2006-06-17 07:37:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Hi there.
Charley and I are working on this. Would the original poster drop me a line and we can compare notes.
[email protected]
"
Who is Charely?
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On 2006-06-08 11:46:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Programs haven't been exposed to scientific scrutiny for the simple reason that they refuse access for the purpose of clinical trials. You see, they have plenty of anecdotal evidence that shows that they don't work and many studies show the same, but to allow a study of their particular program would be tantamount to direct proof that they don't help anyone. They won't allow studies to be conducted.
I personally contacted ASR (Academt at Swift River, an Aspen Education Group facility) to inquire about performing a clinical trial and I was told "we don't allow that."
Good luck.
"
Actually ASR has opened their doors to many people to observe and conduct studies of their model. There has been a book written and at least one study published /conducted that I know of. If a person just calls off the street and asks to conduct a study they will decline of course. If you approached them thru a University and sent them a proposal up front on the type of study you are conducting, the time and resources you will be needing and then they could assess how intrusive it may be to the students. But I want you to send a professional proposal outlining your intents as in any school or business.
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More on the ?study? (survey)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 510#174610 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2826&forum=9&start=510#174610)
Marcus? book
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#81549 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8222&forum=9&start=0#81549)
No data to support Marcus?s hysterical claim that there is a Skyrocketing Suicide Rate- in fact data that refutes his fear mongering
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 945#182325 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2826&forum=9&start=945#182325)
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On 2006-06-17 08:07:00, TheWho wrote:
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On 2006-06-08 11:46:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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i am surprised given the level of controversy over this issue and the level of angst many graduates express that one has not been comissioned before.
Programs haven't been exposed to scientific scrutiny for the simple reason that they refuse access for the purpose of clinical trials. You see, they have plenty of anecdotal evidence that shows that they don't work and many studies show the same, but to allow a study of their particular program would be tantamount to direct proof that they don't help anyone. They won't allow studies to be conducted.
I personally contacted ASR (Academt at Swift River, an Aspen Education Group facility) to inquire about performing a clinical trial and I was told "we don't allow that."
Good luck.
"
Actually ASR has opened their doors to many people to observe and conduct studies of their model. There has been a book written and at least one study published /conducted that I know of. If a person just calls off the street and asks to conduct a study they will decline of course. If you approached them thru a University and sent them a proposal up front on the type of study you are conducting, the time and resources you will be needing and then they could assess how intrusive it may be to the students. But I want you to send a professional proposal outlining your intents as in any school or business."
I want you to provide the study then we'll talk.
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This was a study conducted by a colgate graduate at ASR.
http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
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This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
God, you are a tedious bastard aren't you? A book is not a study. It's a book, written for profits. Who, you are a vertiable fountain of misinformation.
Frank, where's that dead horse, man?
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Actually ASR has opened their doors to many people to observe and conduct studies
This is a blatant lie.
They "opened their doors" to exactly one person to write a book that paints ASR in the most favorable light possible. The so-called study that The Who keeps referencing was a mail survey designed by ASR with names and addresses of select persons chosen solely by ASR whose biased results were analyzed statistically by a grad student. The results actually showed continuing clinical pathology despite the hand-picked ultra-biased sample.
Who, you've gone from misrepresentations to outright, bald-faced lies. Your credibility is near zero if not zero.
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On 2006-06-19 14:33:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
God, you are a tedious bastard aren't you? A book is not a study. It's a book, written for profits. Who, you are a vertiable fountain of misinformation.
Frank, where's that dead horse, man?
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Why do you keep discarding peoples work like Maia Szalavitz and Dave Marcus just because they make a profit. Everyone needs to eat, DJ, do you work for free?
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On 2006-06-19 14:38:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
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Actually ASR has opened their doors to many people to observe and conduct studies
This is a blatant lie.
They "opened their doors" to exactly one person to write a book that paints ASR in the most favorable light possible. The so-called study that The Who keeps referencing was a mail survey designed by ASR with names and addresses of select persons chosen solely by ASR whose biased results were analyzed statistically by a grad student. The results actually showed continuing clinical pathology despite the hand-picked ultra-biased sample.
Who, you've gone from misrepresentations to outright, bald-faced lies. Your credibility is near zero if not zero.
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All I ask is that you read the studies and judge for yourself, the facts are there and their doors are open to academia (not to every joe off the street). Sorry, DJ, it is true, the facts are there.
Okay now you can bring out the dead horses !!!
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The title of the thread is "Long term studies". Neither of the links you provided qualify.
http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
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On 2006-06-19 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The title of the thread is "Long term studies". Neither of the links you provided qualify.
http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
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Valid point,Anon, someone asked for those links I believe. So I guess we should step back and define a length of time which could be considered "Long Term" and define these as our boundary conditions for future debate.
Whomever started this thread, we have a request to define "Long Term Study" as it should be discussed on this thread.
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On 2006-06-17 07:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-17 07:37:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Hi there.
Charley and I are working on this. Would the original poster drop me a line and we can compare notes.
[email protected]
"
Who is Charely?"
Dr. Charles Huffine.
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Aside from the fact that one of the links is corrupt. Cindy there are a plethora of unanswered questions for you. Why not get to them?
Or are you just afraid you cant bullshit your way through them?
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On 2006-06-20 01:34:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
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On 2006-06-17 07:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-06-17 07:37:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Hi there.
Charley and I are working on this. Would the original poster drop me a line and we can compare notes.
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... 8&Itemid=1 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=1)
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that's Dr. Huffine, he also works with ASTART. A survey is due to come out very soon, before August.
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[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-06-29 21:06 ]
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On 2006-06-29 00:06:00, katfish wrote:
"that's Dr. Huffine, he also works with ASTART. A survey is due to come out very soon, before August."
How is this survey being connected? Is there a group in charge of it?
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yea, ASTART is...or rather, specifc ASTART members are, lead researcher is Dr. Pinto
http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm)
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ASTART survey coming out by next week. yay
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This was a study conducted by a colgate graduate at ASR.
http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgeduate./cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
This is a study/book written by Dave Marcus about his time at ASR:
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
Explain how you could be a engineer who went to graduate school and know so little about studies and proof. Either you are lying about your background or the person who wrote a story claiming to be yours with the graduate school information is not you. Or you are deliberately playing the buffoon, actually knowledgeable but deliberately misleading to protect your indentity
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here's the survey... Ardvark- a LTS is a really good idea, as this only scartches the surface, but as others mentioned, getting schools to open their doors is problematic....yet, to maintain any legitimacy/credibility in the furture I suspect they will eventually have to concede.
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... iew&id=308 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308)
-kat
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here's the survey... Ardvark- a LTS is a really good idea, as this only scartches the surface, but as others mentioned, getting schools to open their doors is problematic....yet, to maintain any legitimacy/credibility in the furture I suspect they will eventually have to concede.
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... iew&id=308 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308)
-kat
I spent the time and filled it out to the best of my ability. I don't know who is taking the survey, actually. I don't why they are doing so nor why it is worded how it is. It don't matter to me. I just want to share my own experience honestly, and there are very few places to do that. TBS's can change your entire life and future.