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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jimmy Cusick on January 04, 2005, 03:58:00 PM

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on January 04, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
I must admit when I was sent to the Seed in Ft. Lauderdale on July 1st, 1974 I was a mess. The Seed helped me put the pieces of the puzzle back together again. So what if the Seed wasnt altruistic in their true purpose, that may or may not have been to empower and finance Art Barker. I can only consider my individual experience which may have been initially rather negative but they saved Humpty-Dumpty by providing a physical enviroment where drugs or alcohol were impossible to obtain. In that enviroment they convinced me that my attitude was backwards and upside down. That occured through lots of moral inventories and countless rap sessions where I was led to believe(rightly so) that drugs(the druggie lifestyle)were bad.

There were vast improvements in my attitude and outlook on life once I became a part of the seed as its wheels turned in my foggy brain. I am sorry that some of you seedlings had more negative experiences than I.  St.Pete may have been more military-like in its younger days, I simply dont know about that. Nor do I have any input concerning other kids rehabs ie. CEDU/ straight inc.


I can say with certainty that I have forgiven Art Barker and ALL the Staff members. I did well in High School and surpassed others in the Marine Corps. My decisions (post seed, 5 years) were healthy ones based on my seedling learning experiences,  to disagree with some I really did learn how to get along with other human beings in the "real world". Both business and pleasure, we learned how to be honest and straight forward which I have found to be a rare quality in todays world. So as I recover(again)from addiction I find myself referring to the ideal's that were GIVEN to me in the seed.


50 day's clean and sober,but who's counting?
Jimmy
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 04, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
Jimmy- I glad everythings working out for you. You sound great.  It's like we were always told - now you have the tools and its true.  They always work for me & they havn't let me down yet.  I too have very fond memories at the Seed.  I must admit I think everyone must have some good memories.  Sure I had some people I wasn't crazy about but I have a more memories about people I was crazy about.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2005, 07:48:00 PM
I think you're both a little tetched. "The tools" have obviously let Jimmy down repeatedly. I have a brother who says the same thing. Last I talked to him, he was on his third marriage. Been through The Seed, AA, NA, GA ... pretty much made carreer of XA group involvement. And yet, every time I talked to him, he had just then finally figured out how to use those blessed "tools" Art so graciously shared w/ him. But of course, I can't talk to him about it because he takes it as a personal attack and gets all hostile. I really just want to see him quit putting himself through the wringer, ya' know? And you too, Jimmy. Even though I don't know you, I hate to hear of anybody beating themselves up like this.


Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 04, 2005, 09:02:00 PM
If the seed really "helped" you as intended and promised, you wouldn't be 50 days sober, you would be 30 years sober.

Sorry, that is the reality. Ihope it doesn't sound too harsh.

And Jimmy, when you first logged on here your attitude was 180 degrees. What gives?

Hell...I already know the answer according to program dogma... You weren't working your program and you were being Ungrateful.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 05, 2005, 08:27:00 AM
Antigen, I can't imagine you bringing out hostility in anyone.  I wonder why your brother and you can't get along?  You always come off as compassionate to me.  I am being factious.  I think I am about through with posting on this site. You have pissed me off.

Greg you could try giving Jimmy a break.  Sorry all I can picture are crabs in a bucket.  

Jimmy I'm glad you are happy.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 05, 2005, 08:40:00 AM
Antigen what the f--- do you sugest Jimmy and your brother do?  If you hate seeing people go through the RINGER? No one is perfect.  Life is a journey filled with ups and downs.  I'm sorry -you repulse me.  I feel sorry for you.  You sound like you need help and don't try to tear down anyone else for trying to help themselves.  I'm sorry if I sound harsh but don't f--- with people trying to help themselves.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 05, 2005, 09:29:00 AM
I think you miss the point Ft Laud. There is a contigent of people that, having gone thru stepcraft treatment and being told that only defective people can't stay straight after receiving these "gifts", repeatedly run themselves "thru the program" the rest of their lives setting up failure after failure. The latest success validates them, and their next failure knocks them off their high horse and totally ruins their self worth. The founder of AA himself said only genetically defective people couldn't work the program sucessfully. Funny saying when the best they can come up with is a 5% "success" ratio.

Anyway, this is the ringer Antigen speaks of... thinking somehow you failed the program, not that the program failed you.  AA and the seed share this dogma and it is destructive. Getting sober is a matter of wanting to do it and finding the willpower from within, not recanting magic formulas or singing silly songs.


As far as giving Jimmy a break, I only wish him the best, including wishing he would give himself a break from all this self loathing he has been doing around here. I suspect Jimmy is a real good guy that just keeps getting stuck. He is obviously conflicted about his seed experience but seems to feel it beneficial for his current situation if he finds good in what happened back then.

Jimmy, we are all with you here. All of us. Believe that.


Relax Ft Lauderdale, you will never like everyone you meet nor will you ever like everything said here. That is not the point. The point is freedom of expression about a common experience.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2005, 09:34:00 AM
:nworthy:  :nworthy: Cheers Greg.  I was just getting ready to write a very similar post.

Jimmy, we ARE with you.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: cleveland on January 05, 2005, 09:54:00 AM
Hey, I have to chime in here too...

I know 'Ft. Lauderdale' personally and he is one of the kindest people around...notwithstanding telling Antigen to 'f---off'...!!!

Jimmy sounds like a damn fine guy to me who is trying to do what's right for him - if 'the program' tools are honesty, trust and doing what's right then fine, I'm sure he can figure it out for himself over time..if not, then no program helps...it's really up to us in the end. And our families and friends. "Take what you want and leave the rest."

As for me, I think there's a dark side to the program - and an even darker side to other programs that use coercion and peer pressure. Let's face it, you can use coercion and peer pressure to cause a person to do good things...but those same tools can be used in a destructive way. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

So, for me, any 'program' - or political party, corporation, religion, or group - that uses group think, that shames those who disagree, that thinks only 'they' have the answer - I will have to say - no thanks.

I know Antigen has a strong viewpoint, Ft. Lauderdale equally so. You guys can agree to disagree at some point and keep the dialog open, or just shut each other down, which I think would be a loss to us all. We are all just middle-aged people trying to figure life out, yes?
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 05, 2005, 11:16:00 AM
yes
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Fran on January 05, 2005, 12:07:00 PM
Middle age??? That scares me more then being put back in the seed. Just kidding!! Got to lighten things up here.
I wish Jimmy nothing but the best...I am happy for him.
I have not had the horrific experiences some had in the seed. I entered Jan 15th, 73 and I played the game and went home 2 weeks later...and graduated about 3 1/2 months but stayed in oldtimers for about 2 years or so. I stayed straight for about 4 years and then began to drink etc. on a social basis only and experimented with speed and qualudes out of curiosity mostly from what I felt I missed out on after hearing everyone elses drugs of choice in the seed but I was the one that decided at a certain point that I needed to grow up and become responsible. I eventually quit smoking cigarettes and try to maintain a healthy lifestyle. When I went into the seed I went from one peer pressure into another. Did the seed really help me? I don't know...I think it just postponed the inevitable. I was the one in the end that had to make the decisions in my life which road I wanted to go down.
But it does sadden me that the seed did hurt so many kids and even 30 years later the hurt and anger is still there.  And for others as in Jimmy's case they are happy of the time they spent there. As for me I am indifferent about it...it is a part of my life that is over I can't change it.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2005, 12:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-05 05:27:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen, I can't imagine you bringing out hostility in anyone.  I wonder why your brother and you can't get along?  You always come off as compassionate to me.  I am being factious.  I think I am about through with posting on this site. You have pissed me off.

Yeah, that Antigen...what a bitch.  Zero compassion
 :roll:  :roll:
 
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#74226 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7687&forum=9&start=10#74226)

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Dude, if I were closer, I'd certainly give you the key to my basement. But I'm thousands of miles away.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2005, 01:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-05 05:27:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen, I can't imagine you bringing out hostility in anyone.  I wonder why your brother and you can't get along?


Honestly? Because, no matter what else has happened over the last 30 years or so, the conversation always goes back by some way to the Program. He's usually extholing he virtues of his latest incarnation as an ex-[drugger, drinker, gambler, whatever] and asking me to pretend it makes sense. I can't do that. I suppose it's a little ironic. The one aspect of the Program that I did internalize was honesty. I honestly don't think he ever was an addict or a bad person when he was 14 and my mother got sucked in by Art's schpeel. And I can't watch this ongoing saga and pretend it's all good.

So, if I'm going to get along w/ him, I have to do a whole lot of pretending and ignoring. Oh, and btw, I also have to pretend that I'm terribly unhappy (must be, why else would I drink beer) and that I'm addicted to and spending lots of time and money on illegal drugs (must be, why else would I care about drug policy reform) At the bottom of it, I'm just not that good at--or interested in--pretending. Gimme the real or save your breath. I know, that makes me a difficult person but that's what I am.

Our friends and allies in the Middle East and Europe will soon be subject to forms of intimidation by an Iraqi government bent on dominating the Middle East and its oil reserves,
Project for the New American Century (were they talking about themselves?)

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2005, 01:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-05 05:40:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Antigen what the f--- do you sugest Jimmy and your brother do?  If you hate seeing people go through the RINGER? No one is perfect.  Life is a journey filled with ups and downs.  I'm sorry -you repulse me.  I feel sorry for you.  You sound like you need help and don't try to tear down anyone else for trying to help themselves.  I'm sorry if I sound harsh but don't f--- with people trying to help themselves.

"


This is a very good example of why I can't get along w/ my brother.

What I'd like Jimmy to try is this. Try not thinking of yourself as a powerless addict at the mercy of powerful substances. Try just skipping the self abasement and wearing the hair shirt and just... get back to what you were doing before you slipped up. If actual, physical and psyche withdrawal symptoms are a real problem (I know they can be at times) try finding a medical doctor who's specially licensed to prescribe subutex(sp?) I hear it's very helpful for getting over the initial hump. It's not maintenance like Methadone, but just a medication to treat withdrawal symptoms for about 3 days.

In all liklihood, you're not half as bad a guy as you might think on some days. None of us are, but we all have our down moments.

Now, I ask you, why does my saying that tend to throw you into a rage? I believe Walley that you're a nice guy. Even w/o Walley saying so you seem like a very decent person to me, except when it comes to certain views about the Program. And this is just exactly what happens between my brother and me. If only we could avoid discussing the Program, we'd get along just fine. Trouble is that it's such a core element of his life and personality it's impossible to avoid.

My brothers and sisters manage by just humoring him. They've told me so. I'm just not good at that.

"Narcotics have been systematically scapegoated and demonized. The idea that anyone can use drugs and escape a horrible fate is an anathema to these idiots. I predict that in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus."

--William S. Burroughs

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2005, 01:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-05 06:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

 :nworthy:  :nworthy: Cheers Greg.  I was just getting ready to write a very similar post.



Jimmy, we ARE with you."


Damn right! You said it a whole lot better, and more gently, than I could. But that's about what I was trying for.

Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2005, 11:37:00 PM
Jimmy, I am very happy that everything is going good for you.

The Seed allowed me to do more than I ever could have imagined in my life.  I was totally screwed up in drugs and was desparately unhappy.   I never had any confidence in myself and would never have done anything possitive were it not for the Seed and the tools that I was given.  There is not a day that goes by that I don't use what I have learned.

Antigen - I think that we all have the choice in life to make right or wrong decisions.  I have had my life together for over 30 years and never once went back to drugs.  I have had ups and downs but the tools have been what has made me make the right choices.  It seems to me that you are very resentful towards the Seed.  I was there for many years and saw lots of  people change their lives around including myself.  I feel offended by your being so negative towards others when they are trying to express themselves.   You should have a little more sensativity and think about how you might affect them by what you are saying.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 10:05:00 AM
Maybe if you actually tried to live in the real world and deal with people from all walks of life instead of your seed cucoon, you might not be so "offended" by the fact that other people actually have opinions that differ from yours.  I'm thinking that you have not really been exposed to much of the real world.  

Folks who have trouble staying straight - maybe their trouble is because they actually live life and get out there everyday and are challenged in ways that people who live the the clositered seed life could never ever be able to handle.  And whyis that?  Because those "tools" are not the "be all and end all" they were made out to be.  Maybe because it only works when you use them in a safe secure environment.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 06, 2005, 11:10:00 AM
to the first anon above..if this is your first post welcome to our forum!.

30 years ago, eh?  Me too. However, I am a graduate and did not have such an easy go of it. Nowadays I can take a drink at leisure without spiraling down into an alcholic failure ridden one way street or needing to get drunk after drinking one beer or a glass of wine. I AM NOT POWERLESS!

Why? Why are you able to stay "straight" for so long while others, even staunch seed advocates, admittedly struggle with drugs and alchohol so many years later? What gives? How important is it to you to stay straight? Is it necessary...what I mean is, if you had a drink or god forbid smoked some pot, would your life end as you know it? Would you somehow change the direction of your life? Would you end up hopelessly screwed up?

Enlighten us here on the mentality necessary to proclaim you have been "fixed" for 30 years.

Oh, and by the way, were you ever addicted to anything? How old were you when you went in the seed?

Thanks in advance for your participation here.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2005, 12:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-05 20:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Jimmy, I am very happy that everything is going good for you.

Jesus Christ on a broken crutch! You obviously never got to know an authentic addict! Jimmy, please know that we're all pulling for ya', heart and soul. I don't recall if you said you were kicking an opiate addiction or not, but that's what I assume by the way you put it. If so, some of us understand that "going well" is probably not the very first phrase to spring to mind when you get up to face the new day. But it does get much better. You must be at least 45 by now and (you can check this), statistically, people who make it to your age almost always kick successfully and permanently right about now.

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I was totally screwed up in drugs and was desparately unhappy.   I never had any confidence in myself ...

Don't you understand that all adolescents feel that way at some point? Think of all the kids who landed on front row for a "druggie attitude" (usually the younger brothers and sisters of initial Seed intakes) But the same schpeel worked on them pretty good, even on those who had NO drug experiece, let alone excessive use.

Never the less, for millions of years, most kids have found their bearing and grown up just fine, even w/o The Seed.

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and would never have done anything possitive were it not for the Seed and the tools that I was given.  

That's extremely hard to believe. Nothing positive? Ever? Not a thing? There was nothing that could have happened, other than The Seed, that might have influenced you to change your ways? That is something you can't possibly know because it didn't happen. Just like I don't know what might have been if my family hadn't gotten involved in The Seed. I can tell you that The Seed did NOT bring us together or keep any of us off of drugs.

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There is not a day that goes by that I don't use what I have learned.

Naturally. What else are you gonna use? You didn't take another path so you didn't learn other stuff.

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Antigen - It seems to me that you are very resentful towards the Seed.  

Yeah, no shit! 10 years of living under that cloud and then landing up in The Seed, The Sequel followed by getting the boot from the family for leaving the Program will do that to a person!

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I was there for many years and saw lots of  people change their lives around including myself.  I feel offended by your being so negative towards others when they are trying to express themselves.

I'm not being negative toward anybody. I'm being critical of the Program. There's a difference. You are not The Program. You are a person who was involved w/ The Program.

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 You should have a little more sensativity and think about how you might affect them by what you are saying."


And so should you. Look, I know this is not something you're used to hearing, but most of the people who I know who bought in on these programs struggle w/ substance abuse and/or cripling depression far more than those who never went or those of us who never bought in.

Why? I think it's obvious. One of the core beliefs of the Program (be it AA/NA, Seed, Sraight or any other variety of stepcraft) is that you are weak and powerless and, any minute now, you're liable to "relapse" into your incurable, fatal disease.

I've had a rough year. No, I had a really easy half a year ending about a year ago, the rest has been unusually stressful for quite some time. If I believed the above dogma, I'd be stinking drunk right now. As an alcoholic, it would be my duty.

But I don't believe that. Never did. And so I can have a few beers one night, get up the next day, take my kid to her clinic at the hospital, learn all I need to about any changes in her IV or other meds that I'll have to administer later (on time, correctly and w/ good sterility practices), handle a car wreck on the way home (thankfully, just a couple of old beaters got a little uglier and no one was hurt) and NOT go on a bender.

I keep my life together because, unlike my two most unfortunate brothers, I never bought in. And when I say to Jimmy that it might be worth a try to re-examine the beliefs that have obviously not been working so well for him for the last 30 years, I am being very sensitive to how it may effect him. How sensitive are you being when you say, essentially, "well, if you would just work your program like I do..."

 :roll: Friends like these!

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 01:04:00 PM
very true Ginger, and the problem here as I see it is that program people almost always mistake program criticism as a personal attack. It is to be expected tho, because they identify so strongly with the Seed cult.

I agree with your points above...had you been a stepcraft devotee and gone thru your series of events lately, no doubt you would be knee deep in a "relapse" and also deep in depression for once again being a failure. Then you would be furiously "working your program".

Why can't people see what a dead end this lie.. this "gift" really is?

A very very very small segment of the population is so weak and disjointed that they need to "step" their way thru drugs and alcohol. Then there are those that find a society of steppers as an alternative to actually making friends and building a real life, and these people build a phony addiction around their stepcraft affiliation and teach themselves to believe their own deception. These are the saddest of all IMO.

 The rest of the world just quits when the negatives outway the positives...
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 06, 2005, 02:29:00 PM
Antigen - I walked around everyday thinking about killing myself.  I was never happy as a kid.  To be perfectly honest my father didn't really like me.  I had alot of emotional problems.  My Dad was an alcoholic my mom in and out of nut houses. Sure I was not an average american kid.  We did go to private schools & my Grandparents were well off. I used drugs for 2 yrs 16 to 18years old.  I never shot drugs.  I was a senior in HS.  I got my stomach pumped once.  I was deathly afraid of shrinks.  I really thought I was bonkers, I was f---ed up- no stability at all.  I needed structure- not forever structure not mind control- I needed discipline and lots of it -I gained strength because of it- inner strength- I started having a sence of humor about myself. This was probably one of my major saving graces- for my own sanity. I really do believe if I did not have that structure that would not be so.  I've had a few suscides in my family as well (Aunts) Yes ...so everything I heard at the seed rung loud & clear.  Antigen I never knew your family but from what you describe they sound weird so do you to me just like I probably do to you.  I'm sure a shrink would really have a field day with you too.  I really don't mean this in a mean way its just what I see.  The Seed did alot of good thats what I saw and still see from those helped.  Believe me It wasn't perfect.  There are alot of big mahofs that I wont have anything to do with. By the way before my Dad passed away a couple of years ago He was sober in AA for 25 yrs.  I have never taken a drink in over 30yrs he didn't in 25 - that must say something.  I voted for Kerry.  I'm not a total Liberal but I'm not a total conservative either.  I'm divorced .  I'm not perfect nor ever claim to be.  I've lived in diffrent cities - maybe even some reasons I don't drink is because of my father.  But why you must tear down people that believe the way they do is the issue.  If I knew how this friggin phrase thing worked I could go line by line and come up with something line by line as well but its not necessary either.  I have enjoyed reconnecting with some people on this site but I think I'm done. I do appreciate that alot. I do hope everyone finds there own way through this journey.
I really do wish everyone the best.  ::bigsmilebounce::
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 03:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-06 11:29:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

  But why you must tear down people that believe the way they do is the issue.  .

I really do wish everyone the best.  ::bigsmilebounce::

"


perception here Ft Laud.  I have grown to understand and even appreciate your sense of humor, but do you forget how you started here...as a attack troll anon telling people to fuck off?  Do you not see that Ginger talks mostly about program IDEAS and not people?

Ask yourself why you perceive anti program people as attacking you. As yourself why you can insult someone, come back and say you are going to "give them love" and then get pissed when they don't immediately respond in kind?  what gives here?

As far as your personal story..we all have one. My mom was a hard core alkie...walked out on the family when I was twelve. My pop never had been a father and continued along that path until throwing us in the seed.

I have been "sober" in the sense I don't hardly drink unless it is a party or I have friends over. I have had a case of beer in my house for a year...and a bottle of vodka unopened for six months.  I don't do drugs.  None of this I attribute to the steps or to art barker. I don't need to "step" my way to logical conclusions..that is that mind altering substances are not good for me.

However, post seed were the most destructive years of my life. I lost my family..I lost my self worth..I lost my reputation among my friends and became known as a "troubled kid" that went to drug rehab.

I am lucky in a sense I survived..but not drugs..the intense anger, loss of family and self hatred I gained in mind control camp. Our experiences have vastly different results. I am willing to listen to your side and think you should be more willing to listen to others.

Now, that being said...we wish you would stay around here and continue to participate. I have grown fond of your warped presense here!

 :grin:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: marshall on January 06, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
I spent a few months in prison before I went into the seed. I can look back now and see that prison helped me in some ways too. I've heard people that claim their being diagnosed with cancer has helped them in some ways. The list could go on...divorce, death of a parent (forced me to grow-up), etc. Whether we turn a particular experience into something positive and whether we learn or grow from that experience varies tremendously from person to person. What hurts one person may benefit another.

But would I want to go back to prison? Would we wish to have a parent die or get cancer...even though we might ultimately grow from such misfortunes? I have met some people who seemed to have been helped by various relgious cults or sects too. In their early years Jim Jones' People's Temple did a lot of good works for the poor...they helped people. Does this justify what happened later? Does it mean it wasn't a cult?

I can see many ways that the seed seems to have helped me too. I can also see other ways that it seems to have caused me harm. From the vantage point of many years later, I don't think any of us can be sure that our psychological problems are the result of the seed. Nor do I think we can be sure whether any positve attributes we think we have (including not using drugs) are the result of the seed.

How many of us will die of cancer or heart disease one day as a result of the seed's wholesale approval and justification of smoking? Couldn't all of these people claim that the seed helped kill them? I know I was not able to stop smoking until several months after I graduated and stopped attending the seed.

Why do most of us insist that the seed must be completely good or evil? Like most things or people, I see it as a little of both. I've been married to the same woman for nearly 25 years. I have 3 grown children and 3 grandchildren. I've smoked pot once since the seed. I drink wine or beer on occasion...and have for the last 26 years without ending up an alcoholic, insanedeadorinjail. I am not powerless over drugs or alcohol. That was a lie the seed drilled in. Whatever ways that the seed may have helped me, I would not wish such an experience on anyone...anymore than I would recommend prison.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 06, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
:nworthy:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2005, 04:12:00 PM
Ft. Lauderdale, I'm really not tearing anybody down. I know how that's done. And, if you want to go semantical w/ me, one valuable lesson I learned from the Program has been how damaging that can be and to avoid doing it.

What I am doing is pointing out that the Program (not you, not Jimmy, not anybody) is more than just minorly flawed, it's dangerous. It can and does do a lot of harm to a lot of people.

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a messed up childhood. And I'm glad everything has worked out in the end. I don't think that makes you weird, though. I think a decent shrink is like a decent DA; they could diagnose a ham sandwich. If you get to know people well enough, you find out that damned near everybody has at least a few nuts in the family tree. So did I.

 But I still think there probably were other options that would have been as good or better for you and your dad w/o drawing my family into it at all. And you must understand that the other families were a necessary part of the Program, right? I mean, it wouldn't have worked at all had it been one on one or w/o the notion that the world was turning all druggie and it was "us against them", right?

Our family's involvement w/ The Seed made everything worse, not better. And I'm hearing the same thing from, far and away, the vast majority of people who look up their particular Program name on the net and find these forums.

Believe it or not (and I'm guessing you won't) I still wouldn't make a public issue of this at all, except for one minor detail. The Program, as defined by the Drug Free America Foundation (formerly Straight, you know the history) is the most widespread, publicly mandated and funded method of "treatment" for my kids' generation. In 2000, their lobbyists actually tried to pass federal legislation limiting all federal juvenile drug treatment funding to only facilities that use the "Therapeutic Community" model. Thankfully, that failed, but not by much.

DARE, once mandated in 80% of public and private school districts in this country, is based on Program dogma and some of it's methods. A lot of activists have made a lot of noise and drawn a lot of sanctimonious ire onto themselves in order to get DARE out of the schools. The same thing needs to be done w/ these more intense, lock-down programs. That's why I tear the Program down. But not you or anybody else. Just the Program.

Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-06 12:23:00, marshall wrote:

Why do most of us insist that the seed must be completely good or evil?


I just think that the idea that the TC method or stepcraft is wholely good and entirely harmless is already pervasive. That side of the argument has gone largely unchallenged for far too long now. And in light of some of the worst damage done in the name of coercive treatment, giving equal time to the benefits is about like saying of Charles Manson, "Yeah, but he sure was a good musician!" Ok, if you think so, you're entitled. I think the Program successes are sort of knock off versions of real success and Manson's music was pretty lame. That's my opinion.

How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
to the first anon above..if this is your first post welcome to our forum!.

30 years ago, eh? Me too. However, I am a graduate and did not have such an easy go of it. Nowadays I can take a drink at leisure without spiraling down into an alcholic failure ridden one way street or needing to get drunk after drinking one beer or a glass of wine. I AM NOT POWERLESS!

Why? Why are you able to stay "straight" for so long while others, even staunch seed advocates, admittedly struggle with drugs and alchohol so many years later? What gives? How important is it to you to stay straight? Is it necessary...what I mean is, if you had a drink or god forbid smoked some pot, would your life end as you know it? Would you somehow change the direction of your life? Would you end up hopelessly screwed up?

Enlighten us here on the mentality necessary to proclaim you have been "fixed" for 30 years.

Oh, and by the way, were you ever addicted to anything? How old were you when you went in the seed?

Thanks in advance for your participation here.

___________________________________________________________


Greg ? Thanks for the welcome.  I can tell from reading your entries that your experience was very different from mine at the Seed. I can also understand how you felt so differently than I did.  

I came in the Seed at 15 years of age.  I used drugs just about every day before coming in.  I did not know how to deal with the real world and tried to mask all of the negative feelings I had about myself through the use of drugs.  I used drugs for several years and each year I would see myself doing more and more to destroy my life.  I was so unhappy that I could not even look at myself in the mirror or even be alone by myself.  Even as a kid I never felt secure with myself, I always felt like I was not worth anything.  The Seed gave me everything I was lacking in my life.  I certainly did not get any assurance from my parents.  I was always told how everything I did was wrong and never once was I told you did a good job.

For me I would not even want to drink or do drugs again since that is what destroyed me the first time.  All I have to do is think about how I felt prior to coming in and how I learned how to be at peace and happy with myself now.  I don?t want to take the chance of destroying that.

I am not saying that everything was perfect.  There were some people who were into status and would not even acknowledge me.  I would go out of my way to be kind but I think they felt I was not as good as they were.  For a long time I thought was there something wrong with me, but I have had a lot of time to think about it over the last few years and feel fortunate that I did not turn out like them.  I can see things much more clearly now.

I hope this answers your questions.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
- Maybe if you actually tried to live in the real world and deal with people from all walks of life instead of your seed cucoon, you might not be so "offended" by the fact that other people actually have opinions that differ from yours. I'm thinking that you have not really been exposed to much of the real world.

Folks who have trouble staying straight - maybe their trouble is because they actually live life and get out there everyday and are challenged in ways that people who live the the clositered seed life could never ever be able to handle. And whyis that? Because those "tools" are not the "be all and end all" they were made out to be. Maybe because it only works when you use them in a safe secure environment.
______________________________________________________
To anon referenced above:

You have absolutely no idea the kind of a life I have lead.  

I have gone through a tremendous amount in my life.  I had a life threatening disease where I was extremely sick for months.  When I first found out I did not know if I was going to live or not.  That was a true test of reality.  The tools helped me tremendously during this stage of my life.  To me going through those things in my life gave me a real insight and I learned and grew so much by going through the experience.  It showed me that I had character and could handle much more than I could have imaged.  It may sound odd but I am glad I went through that experience.  

My point is that I have not had a sheltered life or lived in a cocoon and life has not always been smooth sailing.

I also have not lived a perfect life by any means but I feel that we can learn from all of our experiences.  Either good or bad.

I am not trying to be sarcastic but just stated the way that I feel.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
how long were you involved at the seed. How many years? How long have you been away?  It appears that you still talk the talk so I am just curious.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 07:47:00 PM
damn, 15 years old, did drugs and felt bad for a couple years, then wham, 30 years of feeling like those two years defined you and then the magical steps saved you.

Sorry, but that is a crock of dung, spoon fed by a cult that just accepted everything a ex alcohlic bad comic spoon fed them. Most people have periods of their life where they feel bad, especialy teenagers. I have had times as an adult where looking in the mirror disqusted me for one reason or another. I didn't need to be locked up in a cult  to cure that.

 Teenage angst wasn't invented by our generation or cured by the seed. In fact, for many it made it much worse.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 06, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
Quote


Greg ? Thanks for the welcome.

I came in the Seed at 15 years of age.  I used drugs just about every day before coming in.  I did not know how to deal with the real world and tried to mask all of the negative feelings I had about myself through the use of drugs.  I used drugs for several years and each year I would see myself doing more and more to destroy my life.  I was so unhappy that I could not even look at myself in the mirror or even be alone by myself.  Even as a kid I never felt secure with myself, I always felt like I was not worth anything.  The Seed gave me everything I was lacking in my life.  I certainly did not get any assurance from my parents.  I was always told how everything I did was wrong and never once was I told you did a good job.



For me I would not even want to drink or do drugs again since that is what destroyed me the first time.  All I have to do is think about how I felt prior to coming in and how I learned how to be at peace and happy with myself now.  I don?t want to take the chance of destroying that.






I hope this answers your questions.


"


So, you were never addicted. Many 15 year olds don't know how to deal with the real world and are very unhappy. It is part of the deal, unfortunately. However, for most kids, a cult is NOT the answer to their unhappiness, at least not in the long term.

The seed gave you everything?  WOW. How long were you involved?

BTW, congrats on kicking whatever disease or sickness you had.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
Quote
Anonymous wrote:

I came in the Seed at 15 years of age.


Anon, you said you stayed involved w/ The Seed for many years. Have you been in touch w/ your family the whole time?

Just curious.

Whenever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2005, 04:35:00 PM
Oh no cause she's probably been locked up in a closet with cool aid and PB & J's for 30 years.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2005, 04:37:00 PM
maybe it didn't give her everything - but a lifetime supply of cool aid. :grin:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Stripe on January 07, 2005, 05:27:00 PM
Why is it that for most seed people it's always an everything or nothing proposal?  Like a person is either addicted or not; or our lives are either GREAT ..or not.  And we only have heavy revelations that bring deep meaing to our lives or or silly, meaningless thoughts that we believe show a weakness of character?

I've seen this time after time in myself over the years and it's avery self-defeating pattern. It looks to me to just be more evidence of programming.

To the anon with the life-threatening disease who perhaps took offense to my comment - "Maybe if you actually tried to live in the real world and deal with people from all walks of life instead of your seed cucoon, you might not be so "offended" by the fact that other people actually have opinions that differ from yours. I'm thinking that you have not really been exposed to much of the real world."

First of all, accept my apologies if my statement offended you.  It was nto my intent and have no ability to know your personal history or the history of any other persons here, it's almost a given that something I write will deeply offend someone.  

I, too have dealt with life threatening disease, poverty, violence, homelessness, etc.  But so have many, many other people who didn't have these "seed" tools.  Those folks do alright - I've seen them - adults and children alike. Anon, there's nothing magic about Seed programming.  Faced with the same set of facts and no Seed training, I pretty certain you would have made those same discoveries about yourself without the seed, and your life would have been just a full and happy and propserous.  Maybe even more that it is. Of that I am convinced - otherwise you never could have made the connections in the first place.

It's time for people to give themselves so gosh darn credit for making it in this world instead of attributing their personal success or failiure to the proper or improper use of externally imposed rules and tools.  Come on, people.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 07, 2005, 08:43:00 PM
Well Stripe, in order to take that leap of faith that the seed was responsible for your sucesses, you first have to long term buy into the proposition that you were totally worthless and doomed before the seed, no matter that you were a fifteen year old adolescent or a 17 year old pot smoker, you must convince yourself that your path was certain destruction.


it is a crock for the vast majority of people.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2005, 11:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-07 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Oh no cause she's probably been locked up in a closet with cool aid and PB & J's for 30 years."


I'm serious. I know that some ppl involved w/ the Seed for a long time did sever all ties w/ their families. I know this because people have come to me before looking for ways to find or contact family members. Nothing I could do for them, of course. But now I wonder about that aspect of Seed life in the later years. Did everybody pretty much cut all ties w/ their families? Or only some?

so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2005, 06:36:00 AM
Anon, you said you stayed involved w/ The Seed for many years. Have you been in touch w/ your family the whole time?

Just curious.

_______________________________

Yes, I did stay in touch with my family the whole time.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on January 08, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
I cant belieive I've heard so much anger about the seed program. They saved my ass. 6 months ago when I started into this forum my anger was directed towards the seed but it was indeed from myself. I have somehow forgiven myself and I am grateful and appreciative towards the seed program, Art Barker and the seed staff.

I'm not going to argue your anti-seed rhetoric, help yourself to the resentments. I only know that my life was so incredibly pathetic before the seed and it was largely improved a few months later. You do the math. Duh!
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
saved your ass? and you are in rehab now?

 :lol:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 08, 2005, 12:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 08:09:00, Jimmy Cusick wrote:

"I cant belieive I've heard so much anger about the seed program. They saved my ass.


Really Jimmy?  Lets explore some of your own words on this website...


"I really bought into the brainwashing, I thought we were going to reach out and save the world. I stayed clean and sober for 5 years so that was a good thing but I continue to resent art barker for what he did to kids."

"Glad I found this, havent thought about the brainwashing in years"

"I remember eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and watered down cool-aid (1 cup)."

"he told us that we would save the world,(I believed him). Art was our higher power"

"I rememeber Suzy Conners telling me to stand up and the entire group ripped me a new ass for the whole afternoon and I had to start over in the front row. Someone had turned me in for being in a bad mood"

" As a seedling I thought we were the choosen ones and I looked down upon everybody else."

"I rememeber sitting on those hard chairs at the seed on Alligator Alley from 10:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night."

"I was never a drug addict, actually I just experimented with pot and L.S.D."

"I was never accepted for who I was, I had to be a phony and pretend to be all "bubbly" about the seed."

" I was successfully brainwashed for a few years and it took me a while to realize it was all about Art Barker becoming a wealthy Guru."

"What a mind-bending experience we all had."

"I remember singing lots of songs (some of them were "I love Art" or "We love Art") How Cultlike."

So Jimmy, is it your contention that as a 15 year old non addicted kid, you needed a brainwashing cult that only would give you a little food and watered down cool-aide and make you worship a guy that isolated you from the normal world and told you you were going to save the world?

Do you not find it a little strange that you went in non-addicted and now are fighting addiction 30 years later but yet keep repeating the Seed "saved your ass"?

These are legit questions here Jimmy..I am very interested in your answers.  Thanks.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Jimmy Cusick on January 08, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
well eggplant brain(anonymous that can't use a name) tell me what the seed has to do with what happens in your personal life 30 years after the fact. You have no clue what my life is about.

Gregg, that was an interesting list, the first thing I thought of were my days in the Marine Corps. I hated it with all my guts. Blood, sweat and tears(No pun intended). To this day I am proud to have been a jarhead. Imagine that.

Carry that over to my seed experience.

Of course the chairs were hard, security at the doors, Art was a megalo-maniac but the seed saved the pathetic ass of this 15 year old kid and I'm proud to have been a seedling.


The seed mirrors the corps in that they were both successful at their purpose. I survived both, that strenghened me to carry on the fight on a later day.

Day 54 but who's counting
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 08, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
Jimmy with all due respect you are using no logic at all.

You were not addicted before you went in. Yet you say it "saved" you.

You are now an "addict" after the seed.  what the hell were you "saved" from?

And the marine corps comparison doens't hold water.  The differences are HUGE.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 08, 2005, 03:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 10:02:00, Jimmy Cusick wrote:

"well eggplant brain(anonymous that can't use a name) tell me what the seed has to do with what happens in your personal life 30 years after the fact. You have no clue what my life is about.


...

The seed mirrors the corps in that they were both successful at their purpose.


Well, if the purpose was to convince you that you were, are and ever shall be worthless except by virtue of your status in the group and that anyone who questions that is worthy of disdain and abuse, the Program seems to be working beautifully for you.

But the fact remains that, just like my brother, who landed on front row at the age of 14 and w/o an addiction, you seem to be struggling to this day w/ both addiction and fidelity to the Program.

What has the seed got to do with what happens in your personal life 30 years after the fact?

I think it's a question of interest to virtually everyone who reads and posts here. Am I correct in assuming that you're currently invilved w/ XA style treatment? If so, do you think your involvement in The Seed 30 years ago has had anything to do w/ your choosing that particular type of treatment now?

I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 08, 2005, 04:33:00 PM
Jimmy, I have racked my brain trying to remember your face.  I was there when the seed opened in cleveland in 1975.  Of course I  was there before that too in Lauderdale. I definatly remember your name. Do you remember an extremely good looking guy blonde staff member? That was me.  just kidding I needed a little humor here myself ::bigsmilebounce:: now I'm a balding even past middle aged guy(now if I live to be a hundred I am middleaged)Jimmy I wish you well. By the way Antigen drives me nuts,( I may drive her nuts too) for some reason Greg I kinda like.  Wally Gator is a good friend.  I just wanted to say that.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 08, 2005, 04:55:00 PM
The seed saved my ass too...  No I was not a junkie... no I was not adicted to anything... It saved me from myself... Greg or Antigen I don't believe either one of you were ever suicidal? Maybe I'm wrong.  But if you ever hated yourself so much that all you wanted to do was die -then you would know what some people are talking about when they say "the seed saved my ass" this is my interpertation anyway...The seed showed me how to live ...with myself and others ... how to survive...how to thrive..  all this without a suicide attempt..I really don't think I had it in me without the help-------no I don't think I was brainwashed into beliving that---------I did have ups and downs mine were just kinda a little up and alot of downs. If I didn't have support I would have fallen flat on my ass-  My honest opinion.   I never had kids but I have 16 neice's and nephews.  One is away at college with a pierced tongue.  She's a straight a student a good kid just has a wierd tongue as far as I'm concerned. I think ( I hope )she will do fine (at least she doesn't wear black nail polish and fishnet shit.  Now I've got one nephew that if the seed was still around (yes one out of 16)that
I think the program would be great for- & no I don't know if he ever has tried any drugs probably has I really don't know-----but him I worry about--- I like the kid -he likes me - he actually thinks I'm cool-somehow.  I keep my eye on him ...I'm hopping for the best--- by the way my senior of highschool I attended maybe once or twice a week- skipped school hung around with some real deadbeats.  I wnt back to school after to finish my senior year- my grades all improved tremendously.  I was involved in class - felt confident(for once) I just thought I'd throw that in there.  I got to go-----later :wave:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 08, 2005, 06:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 13:55:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

 If I didn't have support I would have fallen flat on my ass- My honest opinion.


Well, I might say the same thing. Except that, through my parents' involvement and devotion to the Program, I did lose my family supports. Fuck `em, I made it anyway!

I can see where the Seed may have been not quite as bad as some other likely alternatives for some people. But can you see where it really fucked things up for some of the rest of us?

Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll  forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Fran on January 08, 2005, 10:53:00 PM
That was an interesting point Greg made...ironic that most of us were not addicts going into the seed but years later at least 1/2 have addiction problems. Or addictive personalities.
I think I remember the We love Art song but I have blocked out alot of stuff and only when I read about something here in this forum does it come back faintly.
Greg..I have a question? How wealthy did Art get off the seed?
Why did we say we love you to everyone? I remember saying that constantly to the point I was saying it to strangers...weird!! At times I don't want to remember these things that come to mind yet I can't stop reading everyones comments everyday. I think in ways I was more affected by the seed then I thought...why else have I blocked it out for so many years until now?
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 09, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
Antigen-  Didn't your family stop being invloved with the seed in like 1979 or so?  If that is the case... thats like 25 years.  My mother doesn't even remember who Art barker is?  Of course I have explained my mother to you in the past.  Actually my mom after divorcing my Dad 20 years ago- being on her own- got off her meds completely - although she sees doctors constantly for everything else under the sun- actually is happy now- or happier than I've ever seen her- ofcourse an Aunt left her much better off financially.  It is amazing what a few bucks can do for the ole moral.  She may even be happy she outlived the ole man too. who knows?  But anyway my point is - 25 years- didn't that even change anything out for you.  It still bugs me that you had all these problems and you were never on the program.  Before my Dad went to AA- I did tell him to basicly f--- off. But we reconciled years later.  I have one brother thats a Baptist Minister- with a prison ministry in central FL.  Talk about extreme- we were raised catholic - grew up in Miami across the street from a Baptist church that Anita Bryant would sing at (anti gay activest 20 -30 years ago person) we thought this place was  odd  with adults getting baptized in a big pool behind the alter.  Growing up we thought really strange behavior was going on there.  This brother was the last person you would have ever thought would wind up a Minister.  What the hell is my point?  I guess so much shit can happen with time that you can always see through the shit eventually.  I can see good and bad every day in everything.   This brother has eight kids.  Home schooled well travelled (due to missionary stuff -orient & eastern europe) I think my brother is alittle strange but I have to say when I get around him and his family these kids are so nice and well behaved 2 are adults with kids of their own.  They are legitimately nice people and kids and I walk away thinking everytime - that they are good and well adjusted.  Besides tring to save me every once in a while.  I think they have probably given up on that though.      ::bigsmilebounce::
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 09, 2005, 01:07:00 PM
Sorry -there was never a We love Art song.  There once was a song that the group made up for Art & Shelly's 3rd or 4th anniversary,  that was a little corny that Art wanted us to stop singing after a  while.
"art b & shelly -shall we tell you haow we feel -you have given us your treasures- we love you so oooo.  ect   We also gave them a giant stuffed gorillia to go along with the song - we wre a bunch of kids. ::bigmouth::  ::bwahaha::
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 09, 2005, 01:09:00 PM
I have not drank or used drugs in over 30 some odd years.  But guess what I still have an adictive personality...  Why do you think I'm always on this site??? ::bigsmilebounce::
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 09, 2005, 01:23:00 PM
Yes, Antigen the answer to you question is Yes...
But ...( and you know what comes after but) I had to throw that in.  There are still missing links here to me like straight inc........... thats where you and greg went right???   You didn't go through the seed program you went through straight and Gregs dad also had something to do with straight inc also acording to posts I,ve read.  I find it interesting that you both had that in common also.  greg (I know you were in seed but did you go to straight also?            I can see that if I was trying to find my way in life and I got put in the middle of all that crap I'd be pretty resentful also... feeling like I got robbed of my adolescence and I never had time to grow up and figure out anything on my own.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 13:55:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"The seed saved my ass too...  No I was not a junkie... no I was not adicted to anything... It saved me from myself... Greg or Antigen I don't believe either one of you were ever suicidal? Maybe I'm wrong.

"


I took an overdose of prescription drugs and went out for two days at age 16 11/12. This was during the time my father was trying to throw me back in the program and I had chosen Juvenile detention over returning to his house. Soon after the ACLU in st pete got involved and I left for Ft Lauderdale.

Welcome back Ft Lauderdale!
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2005, 03:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 13:55:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:  I never had kids

"



You too, eh?

I am sorry for all of you guys that missed that most valuable aspect of living. It is one of things I find most unfair about what happened to you long timers...that and the lack of sex and relationships..
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2005, 03:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-08 19:53:00, Fran wrote:

"That was an interesting point Greg made...ironic that most of us were not addicts going into the seed but years later at least 1/2 have addiction problems. Or addictive personalities.

I think I remember the We love Art song but I have blocked out alot of stuff and only when I read about something here in this forum does it come back faintly.

Greg..I have a question? How wealthy did Art get off the seed?

Why did we say we love you to everyone? I remember saying that constantly to the point I was saying it to strangers...weird!! At times I don't want to remember these things that come to mind yet I can't stop reading everyones comments everyday. I think in ways I was more affected by the seed then I thought...why else have I blocked it out for so many years until now?"


Fran, the blocking it all out thing is so common that I am convinced something is going on there. Many people log on and miss what year they were there by two or three,can't even remember how old they were...it is real strange.

The I love you thing is an aspect of cults called loaded language...and as far as singing love songs to art (art barker and shelly..shall we tell you how we feel..you have given us your riches..we love you so...we love you so (row row row your boat style with rising cresencdo)...

well..this is all about being involved in a personality cult.

How wealty did art get? I believe  Extremely wealthy early on...later years there is some debate on whether he hung on to most of it or not. When the seed closed down he donated quite a bit of money to charities that seedlings were involved with like Habitat for humanity and canine companions.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2005, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-09 10:23:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Yes, Antigen the answer to you question is Yes...

But ...( and you know what comes after but) I had to throw that in.  There are still missing links here to me like straight inc........... thats where you and greg went right???   You didn't go through the seed program you went through straight and Gregs dad also had something to do with straight inc also acording to posts I,ve read.  I find it interesting that you both had that in common also.  greg (I know you were in seed but did you go to straight also?            I can see that if I was trying to find my way in life and I got put in the middle of all that crap I'd be pretty resentful also... feeling like I got robbed of my adolescence and I never had time to grow up and figure out anything on my own."


Thanks FL...but I am not resentfull. I am pretty much at a stage in life where this stuff is just like telling a story. The emotion is gone..hell, it has been 30 years or so ago.  I do enjoy moderating this site and talking about my experience. I think it is important for several reasons including giving people who haven't come to terms with what happened to them an opportunity to talk about this stuff in an open safe place.

No,  I never went to Straight. My father and I were not on speaking terms when he got involved in founding Straight, Inc. In fact, him and I were estranged over him forcing me into the seed  and them trying to do it again for a many years. You mentioned you would have never made it without the support of the seed. Many of us rejected the seed for personal reasons such as not wanting to be oppressed, and then we suffered extreme isolation from our families and our former seed friends and had lost most of our old friends for being "narcs". It got real lonely out there as a teenager trying to put the seed experience in perspective, struggling to make good decisions with anger and confusion and no real support group..combine that with being told you would def fail if you left the seed.

How did we make it? Are us seed failures  superior to you guys that would be dead insane or in jail without having gone thru the seed in adolescence?

 I don't think so, I just kinda think many of you have built a myth around the "Seed saved me (or my ass) story...I don't think for the most part those statements are based in reality. Maybe for a few extreme cases, but for us non addicted 14,15, and 16 year olds?

Nahhh....
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 09, 2005, 03:19:00 PM
sorry, those four prior posts were me...forgot to log in.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 09, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
Greg- sounds like you really did go through some major shit-  I'm sorry that you did.  Was your Dad a good guy? and just thought he was doing the right thing? Or was other stuff going on as well? Were they divorced already at that point was he trying to be the hero good Dad or what?  Were you a little shit or pretty normal.  I really do feel like you  got the shit end of the stick.  

I'm really not a weak individual- I don't buy into shit very easily. (I never had moonie mentality) My experiences made me strong like your's probably did as well.  I really can see both sides of this (this is the confusing part for me right now.)  I saw alot of good -through out the years.  I saw majorly fucked up people change and I mean change.  Alot of people that would have gone to prison ( not just for one LSD tab)for for major crimes get a new chance and made good of it.  Some didn't.  I always saw peoples best interests put first.  Now I guess unfortunatly some things fall through the cracks and this is not good.  Got to go.  Later.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2005, 06:56:00 PM
Ft. Lauderdale, there is no chance in hell that my mother will ever forget who Art Barker is. To her, he's about like Jesus on Earth.

I know that for a lot of people, the whole Seed experience was just a few months and didn't involve their whole lives. That's not what happened to us. My next door neighbor sent one of his three daughters there. She wound up on staff. You might remember her. Her name was Pam and she was featured in a pretty high profile newspaper article when she worked at Pompano Harness.

Anyway, even though she was completely emmersed for a short time, she eventually quit staff and got back to a fairly normal life. That's not what happened in our family. All three of my older brothers and one sister went in. By the time I was old enough (and, believe me, by that time my mother was convinced that every teenager could use a run through the Program just as a prophylactic) The Seed was in trouble (again) over juvenile placements. That's why I never went there. Instead, I went to the New and Improved Seed in St. Pete.

All of my brothers and sisters left town just about as soon as possible. Other kids in the neighborhood were not allowed to associate w/ me because their parents were a little afraid of us. This included my best friend (till I was 8, anyway) who's dad was a BSO officer.

As recently as about 13 years ago, my mother was still trying to get me into a damned program! Now, mind you, I have never been addicted to anything but tobacco. The one time in my adult life when I picked up the phone and called her looking for moral support (my husband was sick, I was scared) she took it as the oportunity she had been waiting for. She called me the next day and told me she had made arrangements for my kids so that I could enter residential rehab!

This changed the course of my life and family profoundly and completely. The Seed essentially stole my mother and childhood from me.

But I never thought it was a matter of general interest till a couple of years ago. See, I thought that all the Programs had either shut down or reverted back to small, non-influential little cults like The Seed had done. But I've found out since then that these programs and people who believe in them have a whole lot more influence over public policy and funding than most mid-sized towns. And so I think it's worthwhile to examine the philosophy and experience of the people who make up these groups. Hopefully, if people get a general understanding of just what the TOUGHLOVE hategroups are all about, they'll quit letting them write public policy and checks.

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln

Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: GregFL on January 09, 2005, 07:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-09 14:29:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Greg- sounds like you really did go through some major shit-  I'm sorry that you did.  Was your Dad a good guy? and just thought he was doing the right thing? Or was other stuff going on as well? Were they divorced already at that point was he trying to be the hero good Dad or what?  Were you a little shit or pretty normal.  I really do feel like you  got the shit end of the stick.  



I did. And I am not alone. This Seed experience, like Ginger alluded to, was a bump in the road for some, a major diversion for others, and a total train wreck for many like me.

My family was typically disfunctional. My mother was in Ft lauderdale. My father got remarried quick. He had neither the time or the inclintion to be a father until he could wrap it up in a cult setting and garnet as he would say "absolute control". He had a real mean streak. His new wife was ineffective and had three kids of her own. they tricked four of us in initially and then my older "stepbrother" went in after I was off the program. After graduating he robbed my father's business, got in other troubles with the law and became a fugitive. My father still won't have much to do with him. My other stepbrother after graduating the seed has never been married or really had a girlfriend and never known any real successes. His sister after graduating has been in trouble, been divorced twice, been on public asssistance and never has suceeded much either. Both of them say the "needed" the seed and neither has done much  with their lives. We are not close at all since or after the seed.

My real sister wouldn't discuss the seed until about five years ago, then she hit the wall and really got upset about the whole thing, dealt with it and now is very anti Seed/snynanon type program. Her and I have been close for years.

That is about the deal. My father is old and forgetfull now and we don't much discuss those days anymore. My mom get upset if we talk about it. She never wanted me there. I was staying with her for the first time since the divorce when my father concoted a bullshit story, drove down to Lauderdale, and then drove us straight up to the st pete seed, lying the whole time. My step siblings had been put in the day before. After that date, the day I became a prisoner in a personality cult in mid 1973, my childhood was never recovered and lost forever.
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Fran on January 09, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
What scares me is that there are places just like the seed or worse out there right now!!! Kids who are in these programs that will end up like us 30 years from now trying to figure out what happened to their youth.
Like that Kids Helping Kids program...and there is nothing we can do about it.  :scared:
Title: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2005, 10:23:00 PM
Yeah there is.

The Program essentially works on a pyramid marketing model, just like AmWay. Remember when AmWay moonies were everywhere? But eventually everybody knew somebody who got sucked into the scam and now they're not so popular.

Well, everybody probably knows somebody now who's getting taken for a similar ride. They use some slightly different vocabulary. They sell it as "personal growth boarding school" and "wilderness therapy" now. Some of them advertise "equine therapy". For the parents, instead of Open Meeting w/ the kids, some of them have parent seminars and, eventually, parent child seminars.

If you know to look for it, you'll recognize various recruiting efforts in your community. Next time you hear of a kid getting sent off to a boarding school or someone hawking self improvement seminars for family relationship training, you'll know to maybe ask a few questions.

I tried not to work for, you know, anyone who ate children with their bare hands. I won't pretend that I was ideologically consistent.


--Dick Morris; Political consultant for Bill Clinton, Trent Lott and Tom Ridge

Title: Re: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: I'll kick your arse on May 01, 2012, 07:27:20 PM
:bump:
Title: Re: Sorry Folks, the Seed helped me!!!
Post by: I'll kick your arse on May 02, 2012, 04:06:56 PM
:bump: