Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 18, 2006, 09:41:45 AM
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Yes, I admit -- I'm a troubled parent. I've never raised a teenager before and it's scaring the hell out of me. I only want him to have a shot at happiness and a whole life, not to end up in jail, without an education, homeless, hopeless, whatever..... and that's where I see him heading. I'm willing to do anything and everything to help him. I've been researching TBS's and have an appt with an independent educational consultant in 3 weeks. We live in a major metropolitan city with reasonable resources.
My son is 16, failing school, doing drugs (painkillers, mj, inhalants, xanax, coke...that we know of), is defiant, hot-tempered, depressed and has threatened suicide. He's recently been enrolled in a non-profit teenage drug abuse program (but still doing drugs) and we have an appt. with a psychiatrist next week.
So you guys tell me, what DOES work???
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Consult with your family and arrange for a couple of you to take your son out in nowhere, where you can talk person - to - person and try to find out whatever the reason for his drug abuse is.
Make sure that you are totally isolated. No car. (Get someone to remove it.) No mobilephone, he can use.
There is always a reason hidden somewhere. A tiny detail like sexualitet, not feeling wanted, difficulties with being a part of a group etc. may have triggered him into doing drugs. You have to be openminded and accept if your boy wants boys instead of girls.
If he is a part of a program, that doesn't work he is at a point where he had accepted that he is drug user. That is good, because you can not go anywhere with a person that does not accept his problem.
A major problem is that it take 2 or 3 weeks for him to get the drugs out of his system. That is the time it takes before his answers is not influenced by the drugs.
There is programs outthere that knows that and are ready to dig deep in our pocket and treat your boy like trash during this time. They don't need to work with your son. They just have to wait and claim the result when he is detoxed.
It is your choice if you will outsource this process or you will do it yourself and be able to talk with your son in 2 or 3 weeks.
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First off, virtually all educational consultants will place your child in some program, whether he needs it or not...that is their job and how they make a living. The majority of them are not independent at all and pander to various (for profit) programs and organizations. Do the research, the connections are fairly easy to find if want to spend a little time. Wy don't you take the money you would spend on a residential program and take your son on the trip of his dreams, anywhere in the world. It would be much less expensive and 10 times more productive. He just needs to get away from his creepy little friends for a while and re-connect with his family and himself. What he does not need, is to be incarcerated and treated like an idiot.
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If the inhalants don't work, I'm at a loss. Whipped cream cans and airplane glue saved my ass.
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Yes, I admit -- I'm a troubled parent. I've never raised a teenager before and it's scaring the hell out of me. I only want him to have a shot at happiness and a whole life, not to end up in jail, without an education, homeless, hopeless, whatever..... and that's where I see him heading. I'm willing to do anything and everything to help him. I've been researching TBS's and have an appt with an independent educational consultant in 3 weeks. We live in a major metropolitan city with reasonable resources.
My son is 16, failing school, doing drugs (painkillers, mj, inhalants, xanax, coke...that we know of), is defiant, hot-tempered, depressed and has threatened suicide. He's recently been enrolled in a non-profit teenage drug abuse program (but still doing drugs) and we have an appt. with a psychiatrist next week.
So you guys tell me, what DOES work???
sounds like it's time for a 30-day drug rehab to stabilize this kid.
after that, family and individual therapy is in order.
DO NOT use an "Ed-Con"! These people are nothing more than front-men for programs.
it's time for you to do the hard work here, buddy. a "program" will do nothing more than cause more hostility and push back the problem for however long the program is. in a year or two you'll have the same mess on your hands again, but with more rage directed at you for stealing his teen-age years and locking him up.
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Wow, your kid is on painkillers AND Xanax? Weed AND coke? With some glue sniffing mixed in?
I call troll. Your kid would have to be Ripper (Ripper WAS a gangster!!!) for this to be real.
But just in case this is real, instead of paying untold amounts of cash to send him to hell, find out where the hell he's getting these, and call the cops on his suppliers.
Does HE know what kind of place you're about to send him to? Does HE know that's he's about to be taken to an abuse pit? Have him read Fornits for a while- that'll straighten him out..
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Yes, I admit -- I'm a troubled parent. I've never raised a teenager before and it's scaring the hell out of me. I only want him to have a shot at happiness and a whole life, not to end up in jail, without an education, homeless, hopeless, whatever..... and that's where I see him heading. I'm willing to do anything and everything to help him. I've been researching TBS's and have an appt with an independent educational consultant in 3 weeks. We live in a major metropolitan city with reasonable resources.
My son is 16, failing school, doing drugs (painkillers, mj, inhalants, xanax, coke...that we know of), is defiant, hot-tempered, depressed and has threatened suicide. He's recently been enrolled in a non-profit teenage drug abuse program (but still doing drugs) and we have an appt. with a psychiatrist next week.
So you guys tell me, what DOES work???
Some good advice was already given, though I don't know that I'd try taking him out to "nowhere" for a few weeks to detox is something you should do yourself. Good wilderness "programs" [yes, programs} do that sure, but they do much more, including some issue-specific counseling and discussions, workbooks, and psych sessions. And the more is important to the process.
Actually, the "best" approach depends on his history. Is drug use recent? Different "friends"? How long have there been problems? What else has gone on in his life since a year or two before the problems were noted?
In the end, a time to detox and have some guidance is in order, as is family involvement in therapy/counseling. But more may be in order as well - it depends on what the roots are and how long they've been growing. And not all ed-cons are bad.
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Some good advice was already given, though I'm here to counteract anyone trying to cut into my employer's profit margin. The people I work for will completely ignore what your kid may or may not actually need, but they do something else, including forcing him to lay face down for eight hours at a time on solid concrete, force him to stand in manure for an hour and a half, and LGAT brainwashing seminars. And those are all important to our sadistic desires.
Actually, the "best" approach depends on how easy he is to control. Is he going to brutally murder you after he gets out? Do I really care what happens then? Does he have any experience in being tortured? Is he using drugs because he's mentally running away from you?
In the end, a family-destroying abuse camp is in order, as is brutalization and destruction of his soul. But more may be in order as well - it depends on your pocketbook and not much else. And not all ed-cons are bad, except the ones that refer to hellholes.. oh wait, that's all of them.
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http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml (http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml)
http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.asp)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... ion#213438 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=213438&highlight=passion#213438)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... tive#21702 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=21702&highlight=constructive#21702)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... sion#23852 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=23852&highlight=passion#23852)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... tive#23855 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=23855&highlight=constructive#23855)
http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/a ... iormod.htm (http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/altbehaviormod.htm)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... tive#79171 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=79171&highlight=constructive#79171)
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anyone that calls themselves an ed con is using the title because they don't have any real credentials. I would strongly suggest avoiding the advice of such people
Wow, for once I agree with MightyAardvark!!!
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Some good advice was already given, though I don't know that I'd try taking him out to "nowhere" for a few weeks to detox is something you should do yourself. Good wilderness "programs" [yes, programs} do that sure, but they do much more, including some issue-specific counseling and discussions, workbooks, and psych sessions. And the more is important to the process.
Actually, the "best" approach depends on his history. Is drug use recent? Different "friends"? How long have there been problems? What else has gone on in his life since a year or two before the problems were noted?
In the end, a time to detox and have some guidance is in order, as is family involvement in therapy/counseling. But more may be in order as well - it depends on what the roots are and how long they've been growing. And not all ed-cons are bad.
The problem with using a program is that it is so hard to find a program that would set the welfare of your child first before their income. All too often they would recommend another program after the first one and the treatment needed is limited to your wallet instead of your son´s need.
And you also had to take into consideration that you by sending your child away adds a trauma. If the original cause for his drug use is the often groundless feeling of being abandoned, you would worsen the problem by sending him away.
Perhaps if there was a kind of father-son program where you both ends up in nowhere under professional guidance, you could avoid this very serious problem.
But as I see the market for detox program in your country, it is grab bag where firms makes a huge profit based on the ordeal of the children and their parents wallet.
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I think you're not a real parent and are trolling for flames. However, I'll answer the question for argument's sake.
Send him to a 30 day detox program -- one that also serves adults, if you can find one. And I mean twenty and thirty something adults. They may separate adolescents from the twenty and thirty somethings, but it should be substantially the same procedures and services for both groups.
If that doesn't work, send him to a different 30 day detox program. You have three basic kinds: education based, 12 step, and aversion.
Aversion is usually a very short thing--like less than a week.
If one kind doesn't work for him, try the next kind. Keep going with 30 day or so rehabs, bring him home, see if it "took", send him back if necessary, etc., until one of them takes.
Don't go for anything over 100 days for drug abuse, not under any circumstances, and make sure you try one of each kind of the 30 day or shorter rehabs first.
Resign yourself to him having to go back and make up his education, in the form of a GED and remedial courses at the local junior college, after he grows up and matures enough to want it.
Once a kid gets to 16 or so, you really can't make them learn. They have to choose it for themselves before they can get an education.
Now, about the suicide threats and apparent depression: That's the most serious problem the kid has. That's the one that could kill him.
Either the kid has a biological mental health problem that is causing the drug abuse and school failure, or the drug abuse is causing the depressed feelings and the suicide threats. Drugs like meth, and xanax, can have a very hard "down" when someone comes off them. They can make a user feel depressed or suicidal even when there is no underlying mental illness.
So first you get him through detox so his system is clean and the drugs aren't bouncing his mood all over the place, and then when he's towards the end of the rehab when you know for sure he's not taking illicit drugs, have a good psychiatrist examine him and see if he's going through an episode of depression for some reason or has a mood disorder (major depression, bipolar disorder), or a personality disorder, or whatever.
If it turns out that he has a major mental illness, chances are that's causing all his other problems. Take care of that, and it becomes a lot easier to address the other stuff. Don't take care of that, and you don't have a prayer with the other stuff.
For a major mental illness, if they can't get him stabilized within the three weeks or so a regular mental hospital would be willing to try, and if he's still actively a danger to himself or others, then and only then you might have to put him in a reputable, medical model RTC while they try him on different meds and different combinations of meds until they can get him stabilized.
If he's mentally ill and they can get him stabilized at least enough not to be dangerous, then you need to consult with the psychiatrist and use the least restrictive care setting in which the psychiatrist says he can appropriately be treated.
People with mood disorders can change constantly, so the least restrictive setting today may be too restrictive or not restrictive enough tomorrow.
If it turns out that he's mentally ill, get in touch with NAMI or CABF--they have resources that can help you educate yourself and learn to cope with caring for a mentally ill family member.
Julie
(I have bipolar disorder, a child with bipolar disorder, and a teenage foster daughter with PTSD--so I have a lot of experience coping both as a patient and as a parent.)
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P.S. -- "I want you to" is Ginger-substitution for "*you*need*to*" -- I have to add the funky punctuation to avoid the substitution here.
It's occasionally awkward, but I know why she does it and I agree with her reasons. :-)
Julie
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I'm reminded of some sage words my father said unto me when i was young and entering those turbulent years of experimentation:
"Son, I catch you out in the garage sniffing paint again, I'll kick your ass back into the fucking womb,"
If that isn't re-direction, I don't know what is.
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Yes, I admit -- I'm a troubled parent. I've never raised a teenager before and it's scaring the hell out of me. I only want him to have a shot at happiness and a whole life, not to end up in jail, without an education, homeless, hopeless, whatever..... and that's where I see him heading. I'm willing to do anything and everything to help him. I've been researching TBS's and have an appt with an independent educational consultant in 3 weeks. We live in a major metropolitan city with reasonable resources.
My son is 16, failing school, doing drugs (painkillers, mj, inhalants, xanax, coke...that we know of), is defiant, hot-tempered, depressed and has threatened suicide. He's recently been enrolled in a non-profit teenage drug abuse program (but still doing drugs) and we have an appt. with a psychiatrist next week.
So you guys tell me, what DOES work???
Despite what you see on primetime television, you do have a completely normal teenager. My biggest worry would be the more dangerous drugs, inhalants and coke. I'd tell him I'd rather you smoke weed and take xanax than huff spray paint and nose candy, because you love him and don't want him to be physically harmed. Everything else you are worrying about is not an emergency. Is he stupid? Then he won't be that bad off if he doesn't get an MBA. Is he crazy? Then he won't be homelesss, you can house and feed yourself on minimum wage. Hopeless? A program sure won't solve that, unless you want to fill his head with meaningless buzz words and ideology.
Now that we aren't freaking out, let's look at some reasonable options. He is failing at school? Then how about giving the option of attending a charter school, perhas he is terribly bored and unstimulated. Maybe now that he is 16, he would rather work and do charter school. Smart kids, creative kids and most human beings in general get tired of sitting in a chair receiving basic and normally useless information for 12 years. He's tired of it, change it up and make it different. That's what inspires hope, not more of the same. He's doing drugs? Well unless you want to physically control his body (lock him up somewhere) there is not much you can do without his own willingness, other than speak to him like an adult and have a real conversation about the danger of drugs like inhalants and coke and painkillers. If he wants xanax, get him a prescription from the psychiatrist, maybe he is physically uncomfortable and nervous at school and self medicating. Talk to him about it, don't make him afraid of you because communication will shut down. The mere mention of a program could do this.
As far as the anger and suicide threats, that's typical for a teenager who views their familial relations as a battlefield. That must change. If every teen was locked up for their temper and overly dramatic threats to end their life, there'd be a new camp every week. Seems we're headed that way. If you think he's serious about suicide, you can call the cops and they will detain him and take him to a psych hospital for 72 hours, can be extended to 14 days. But again, once this happens trust is gone, communication is down and will take years to repair.
If I were in your situation, I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior, and not freak out about the individuals behaviors themselves. If you try and control these actions, this will only result in physical control (ie locking him away in program) and that doesn't help anyone unless they are insane and a danger to themselves. If he were willing, I'd try an outpatient psych program. If he weren't then I would pray he doesn't get arrested or killed, but I would not be willing to risk his psychiatric future by taking irrational action in order to satisfy my parental fears, because that would not be fair to him, it would be selfish to get rid of my own uncomfortable feelings. That's all WWASPS and other programs sell, the alleviation of fear to parents. Everything you listed is normal teenage behavior, but then again reality can be scary to some people.
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"I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior'
Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
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"I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior'
Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
I can see why you needed to send your kids to a program, with communications skills such as yours. Are you this cruel and crude in real life or do you save it for the internet? Wow... just wow.
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"I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior'
Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
I have. Twice. Without a program. Worked out fine. What the fuck is your problem?
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Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
I'm reluctant to respond since you are obviously here for your own reasons, however strange they may be, but I am curious to know did you adopt an out of control teen? Do kids come out of the womb out of control, how does that work exactly?
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I think you're not a real parent and are trolling for flames. However, I'll answer the question for argument's sake.
I am a real parent to two children.
I also have a brother that smokes pot when he is not working. It happens one or two time per year and now where he is 37 it has been so for about 15-18 years.
Our hole familiy knows it, his doctor knows it, his case worker in the local authorities knows it, but he is 37 and an adult capable to make his own choices and face the consequences. So no one is going to send him anywhere.
Due to the cultural differences we see it different over here. We would interfere at once when it comes to a person being under 18.
But it is always done in corporation with the local authorities, so we can be certain that it is not a overreaction to a normal teenager behavior. Some of the programs in your country seems to function on the conception that the parents are the legal system when it comes to decide whenever a child need the ultimative punishment, you ever can hand out to a child - deportation. There is no demand for the police, a judge or even medical personel to look into the case before the child is punished.
It is wrong. You need to see the whole picture. What is the drug use is the result of sexual abuse? Is it OK to send the child away. Would it not be better in such cases to prison the parent responsible and arrange for foster parents for the child?
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"I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior'
Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
I can see why you needed to send your kids to a program, with communications skills such as yours. Are you this cruel and crude in real life or do you save it for the internet? Wow... just wow.
She saves it for the internet. Never in a million years would she want anyone she knows to see exactly what a loser she is. She can't even tell her friends about how she posts here for fear they will connect the dots (as I have).
Soon, she'll have no choice. I'm going to link all her posts and post her name, address and phone number so people can hold her accountable for this vile behavior.
Soo, my dear, very soon. Ask Karen how it feels.
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"I would start talking to my kid more and trying to find out the reasons for his behavior'
Hey, Horseshiteater. Try parenting an out of control teen and see how far this advice gets you. What a stupid fuck you are.
I can see why you needed to send your kids to a program, with communications skills such as yours. Are you this cruel and crude in real life or do you save it for the internet? Wow... just wow.
She saves it for the internet. Never in a million years would she want anyone she knows to see exactly what a loser she is. She can't even tell her friends about how she posts here for fear they will connect the dots (as I have).
Soon, she'll have no choice. I'm going to link all her posts and post her name, address and phone number so people can hold her accountable for this vile behavior.
Soo, my dear, very soon. Ask Karen how it feels.
::rocker:: ::kiss:: ::rocker:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::blushing:: ::cheers:: ::bwahaha:: :P :oops: :o :D ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod::
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The topic of this thread is asking what does work. Someone else said this before but it bears repeating.
Take the boatload of money that you're spending to have them 'reformed' and take them on a six month trip to Europe, or a cross country road trip. Find out what your kid is truly interested in or passionate about and spend the money encouraging that. ANd don't tell me their only interest is in screwing around. Everyone has something that they dream of doing. Say he likes motocross bikes. Get him the best one and get him into racing. Send them to a marine biology school in the Keys or Bahamas (a REAL school, not a TBS or some shit like Casa). Spend the time and money you would on shipping them off and use it to foster and feed what feeds their soul.
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"Take the boatload of money that you're spending to have them 'reformed' and take them on a six month trip to Europe, or a cross country road trip. Find out what your kid is truly interested in or passionate about and spend the money encouraging that. ANd don't tell me their only interest is in screwing around. Everyone has something that they dream of doing. Say he likes motocross bikes. Get him the best one and get him into racing. Send them to a marine biology school in the Keys or Bahamas (a REAL school, not a TBS or some shit like Casa). Spend the time and money you would on shipping them off and use it to foster and feed what feeds their soul."
God, you are so stupid. The above translates into, "reward your kid for terrorizing your household and breaking every law and rule by finding new ways to spoil him rotten."
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No, it doesn't. It shows your kid that your interested in why he's behaving the way he is instead of just punishing him for it.
I'm so stupid but both my kids are now doing well without going through a program even though a shitload of people were telling me to send her to one. Riiiiiiiiight. :roll:
You shouldn't have spoiled him in the first place. Your fault but your kid ends up paying the fucking consequences. You selfish prick.
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No, it doesn't. It shows your kid that your interested in why he's behaving the way he is instead of just punishing him for it.
I'm so stupid but both my kids are now doing well without going through a program even though a shitload of people were telling me to send her to one. Riiiiiiiiight. :roll:
You shouldn't have spoiled him in the first place. Your fault but your kid ends up paying the fucking consequences. You selfish prick.
Correction. they wanted me to send one of them ot a program. She was terrorizing the family, doing a lot of drugs, stealing, wrecking her cars (4 of them) and all the other shit that you guys talk about your kids doing. Funny how we managed without the mindrape.
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Thanks to those of you who offered caring advice. I appreciate your time very much.
I thought the educational consultant could help us with getting my son into private school that have waiting lists, recommend local schools that could help with rehab issues, etc. The TBS was just one of the options, and obviously the last one we'd choose. I didn't consider, until today, that it could be an abusive situation for him. Pretty stupid, I guess. But I am a 'research freak' and that's why I'm here. I was only asking for your input from the other side of the fence. Didn't realize I was going to be attacked for "sending my kid away". I am a mother in a lot of pain. That's all.
We can't figure out exactly what he's doing and in what quantities.... he's managed to evade drugs that show up on hair follicle tests. That came back completely negative. It's not like he's stoned out of his mind all the time. These are drugs he's either been caught doing or has admitted to using over the past year. It *looks* like he's experimenting, but who the hell knows.
Everyone one in our family is doing the best we can. Thanks again for your help.
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Terry, this is not a good forum for advice. Go to www.strugglingteens.org (http://www.strugglingteens.org) You will be helped by compassionate parents instead of angry freaks.
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If it didn't show up on a hair follicle test he isn't doing anything. The NSA uses those tests for their employment clearances.
and do not listen to strugglingteens.com If you're a research freak, find out who owns that site.
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Terry, this is not a good forum for advice. Go to www.strugglingteens.org (http://www.strugglingteens.org) You will be helped by compassionate parents instead of angry freaks.
Always a buck to be made, eh? ::noway::
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"Take the boatload of money that you're spending to have them 'reformed' and take them on a six month trip to Europe, or a cross country road trip. Find out what your kid is truly interested in or passionate about and spend the money encouraging that. ANd don't tell me their only interest is in screwing around. Everyone has something that they dream of doing. Say he likes motocross bikes. Get him the best one and get him into racing. Send them to a marine biology school in the Keys or Bahamas (a REAL school, not a TBS or some shit like Casa). Spend the time and money you would on shipping them off and use it to foster and feed what feeds their soul."
God, you are so stupid. The above translates into, "reward your kid for terrorizing your household and breaking every law and rule by finding new ways to spoil him rotten."
God you're so stupid. The above translates into, "punish your kid for what they've done. No need to try and find out what's wrong or find a way to help them find their passion so that can take the place of the destructive behavior. Nope. PUNISH the little bastards!!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Terry, this is not a good forum for advice. Go to www.strugglingteens.org (http://www.strugglingteens.org) You will be helped by compassionate parents instead of angry freaks.
Terry, even though Fornits can be nasty, there is a lot of good information here and nothing is ever censored. At Struggling Teens you'll get a one sided view. They allow no dissenting opinions and delete or ban anyone who doesn't agree with them.
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And Outlaw makes an excellent point. Struggling Teens is run by Lon Woodbury. There's great incentive there in talking you into shipping your kid off.
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Terry, this is not a good forum for advice. Go to www.strugglingteens.org (http://www.strugglingteens.org) You will be helped by compassionate parents instead of angry freaks.
At least the ST people are free to come over here and post their opinions. You can get both sides of the issues here. No one has banned them, they're free to post what they think. The difference here is that people are free to challenge what they say. That's how you find out the truth, seeing both sides. How can you find any truth if ST censors anything that doesn't fit in with their philosophy?
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Yes, I did read Outlaw's advice after I had already posted and found it very comforting.... more like my "gut feelings" about this situation and how it should be handled.
I don't agree that I should take the $60K and take him on a run thru Europe for 6 months. That money would have come out of his college fund, my retirement funds and insurance....not the money tree out in the back yard. I prefer to keep those funds where they are.
I've been around message boards enough to recognize serious posters who are wanting to help as opposed to "angry freaks". I would prefer more compassion, reasonable perspectives and less anger, but I am glad I found this site. You have to understand that I am pretty fragile right now myself.....just *barely* holding it together.
Thanks again.
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Yes, I did read Outlaw's advice after I had already posted and found it very comforting.... more like my "gut feelings" about this situation and how it should be handled.
I don't agree that I should take the $60K and take him on a run thru Europe for 6 months. That money would have come out of his college fund, my retirement funds and insurance....not the money tree out in the back yard. I prefer to keep those funds where they are.
I've been around message boards enough to recognize serious posters who are wanting to help as opposed to "angry freaks". I would prefer more compassion, reasonable perspectives and less anger, but I am glad I found this site. You have to understand that I am pretty fragile right now myself.....just *barely* holding it together.
Thanks again.
I understand completely. And the Europe thing was just a suggestion, more of an example of an alternative to shipping them off. And also more directed at the ST people who seem to have endless funds to pay to these psychos at the TBS and RTCs. Finding what drives them, what their passion is and fostering that was more my point.
My daughter scared the shit out of me for about 3 years. It ain't easy by any means. When I was trying to force changes in her behavior, it just got worse. That doesn't mean I babied and spoiled her, quite the opposite. When she screwed up I let the natural consequence take its course. I watched her, paid attention to what was important to her. It was hard to find under all the drugs and running loose, but if you really pay attention you'll see it. I did end up sending her to a marine biology camp for the summer. She was away from the environment of the shithead boyfriend and the friends that weren't going anywhere or doing anything. She was immersed in something that she was truly interested in. This wasn't a school for troubled kids in any way, just kids who were interested in marine biology. She came back with a different perspective. She saw a different way of dealing with life. She still had troubles after that but seemed more able to realize herself that she was heading for trouble and eventually learned what she did and didn't want for herself. Forcing her to change never worked. Giving her the opportunity to find her passion did.
I'm glad you can pick through the posts here. There really is a lot of great information. Best of luck to you.
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If the hair follicle tests aren't showing anything, he's probably not on anything. Odds are he was experimenting, because nobody is going to be doing all those drugs at once.
Terry, does HE have a computer, Internet access, an online identity perhaps? When I said to let him read Fornits for a while I wasn't joking. I think his outlook might be expanded a bit if he realized that there's a lot of people out there out to make money off his problems, and another group of people to stop this from happening. Maybe you should get him on this thread. If nothing else, it proves conclusively that you really do care about his future and what's going to happen to him.
Terry's son: Your mom was > < THIS close to sending you to a place you really, really don't want to go to, a private prison where you'd be brutalized in ways not normally found outside a Stephen King book; I'm not called the Milk Gargling Death Penalty for nothing. There are a lot of people out there interested in messing you up for their own gain. Don't do anything stupid enough to let that happen.
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... weil#19911 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=19911&highlight=weil#19911)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Weil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Weil)
Weil is open about his past use of illegal substances, claiming, "I think I've tried about every drug," in [his book] From Chocolate to Morphine. He is equally open with his views on ending the War on Drugs, citing the benefits of many banned plants. In fact, the opening paragraph of From Chocolate to Morphine reads: "Drugs are here to stay. History teaches that it is vain to hope that drugs will ever disappear and that any effort to eliminate them from society is doomed to failure."
Weil claims that humans have an innate need to alter their consciousness, and that there is no such thing as good or bad drugs, merely that some individuals have good or bad relationships with certain substances.
http://www.doitnow.org/pages/weil.html (http://www.doitnow.org/pages/weil.html)
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/bookstore/weil2.cfm (http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/bookstore/weil2.cfm)
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm)
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Now now Deb. We can't have any common sense thrown into the mix.
:wink: :D
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There is no comparison between Fornits and Struggling Teens when it comes to getting both sides of the story, Fornits wins hands down.
People here are compassionate and not afraid to defend the rights of children to be free from abusive treatment in the name of "therapy". That's not anti-program or anti-parent. That's pro-child.
Any parent who cares about their child will do due-diligence and soon discover that the troubled teen industry is a multi-billion dollar UNREGULATED business. Unregulated means unsafe.
It's really just that simple.
BUYER BEWARE.
Work with a family therapist who is trained in multisystemic therapy. Don't give up on your kid and send him away. Kids don't need to be banished to some "program" that promises to fix them like they are a broken piece of machinery.
Good luck and thanks for caring about your child enough to find Fornits. I wish you and your family all the best!
Anonymouse
P.S. If you do decide to pursue out-of-the-home placement, make sure you check it out thoroughly, and I do mean THOROUGHLY. Do not go through a referral service who gets paid a "finders fee" by the programs they refer to. That's a red flag. There are some good checklists/guidelines out there you can use to do the job yourself. The org below is one of the best in terms of providing information and resources for parents. They are not a referral company, they are a watchdog group.
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
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If this is not a troll, my only advice and what works - age. Simple as that. It isn't something you can rush either. I did the frantic parent thing with my son. My husband drove him down to Bethel Boys Academy, Lucedale, MS. aka Pine View Academy. Run by a wonderful Christian named Father Fountain. (this man beats and tortures the children regularly all in the name of GOD). My husband and son toured the place together, talked with counselors and older students. My son wanted to stay there. We rescued him 3 1/2 days later based on horrible abuse allegations I found on the internet surrounding this place and the owner, Fountain. My son had been brutally beaten for a half hour by four grown men within 10 minutes of my husband leaving. Tortured, starved, forced to urinate on himself, etc.
My son had to want better for his life. It didn't matter that his dad and I wanted better for him. We were finally ready to let him suffer any and all consequences from his behavior. He is now 18 and works with a drug enforcement officer training bomb and drug detection K-9's. He loves to joke around that he still messes with the drugs .........only in a positive way. But again, he had to decide he wanted better. Maturity cures all. LOL
Cheryle
***My son was ABUSED & TORTURED at Bethel Boys Academy, Lucedale, MS. aka Pine View Academy (owner John Fountain)
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Now now Cheryle. We can't have any MORE common sense thrown into the mix.
:wink: :D
Glad to hear he's doing well.
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Terry, this is not a good forum for advice. Go to www.strugglingteens.org (http://www.strugglingteens.org) You will be helped by compassionate parents instead of angry freaks.
Always a buck to be made, eh? ::noway::
Ain't that the truth?
::rocker::
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That money would have come out of his college fund, my retirement funds and insurance.....
Where would it come from if you sent him to a TBS? No difference. If you're willing to spend it on some TBS why not a trip to Europe. He and you would get a lot more out of that than some behavior mod place.
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In addition to NOT sending the boy to a behaviour mod school, I would wait and see what the shrink says. If the boy is really ill he will be able to help. If not he can possibly put your mind at rest and help the boy with his feelings of depression & the need to take a lot of drugs in a fairly gentle compassionate way.
As to the poor grades thing, perhaps you and your son could consider him getting a trade. If this is something he is interested in he will be being earning money to learn a useful and potentially highly paid skill. The other advantage of an apprenticeship for many young people is that they are exposed to an adult mentor who they can look up to without feeling patronised. Perhaps the kid is not interested in college right now. If he wants to go a few years down the track, you will still have the money tucked away or he may have earned it himself in his skilled and possibly well paying job. My brother is the only one of my siblings who did not go down the university road and he earns a fantastic living as a chef.
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Now now Deb. We can't have any common sense thrown into the mix.
:wink: :D
Unfortunately, it's not common. In fact, likely to be viewed as commy, hippie, liberal, radical, fringe. What the hell.
I do think Weil is right on the money about our inherent desire to alter our consciousness. War on Inherent Instincts- a loosing battle. Actually a winning, and lucrative battle for those who promote it.
Another one of my infamous parenting resource books is "Fuck Yes".
From the Chapter "Say Yes to Teenage Sex"
Dad has just reported to wife and daughter, that the answer to any question is "Yes'.
Dulcinea: Is a girl always supposed to say 'yes' when a boy asks her a question?
Dad: I think so. Yes.
Dul: Always? Are you telling me to always say Yes to a boy?
Dad: Oh, do you think that I'm telling you what you should do, honey? If you think so, you're wrong. You probably would be best off if you decided for yourself what is good or bad for you. I am only suggesting for you to consider that the best answer you could give to any question is the answer, Yes.
Dul: You?re just trying to get out of it, Pa. Answer me straight. Do you think a girl should answer Yes to a boy? (She thought she had me) And added, And you know very well what sort of question I?m talking about.
Dad: Yes, Dulcinea, you should tell him Yes.
My wife slapped her forehead with her open palm and looked up to heaven as though appealing to God for relief from my endless stupidity. Dulcinea stared at me with mouth hanging slightly open.
Dad: Yes honey, when a boy asks you to have sex with him, the best answer you can give him is Yes. Thought about my answer, then again? Say Yes Dulcinea. It?s a good answer. Call him by name. Say, yes Bill, let?s do it if you really want to.
She stared as though she were thinking, "Is this my dad talking?"
Yes, Dulcie, this is your dad talking. Look, honey, you could tell him how proud and honored you are that he?s asked. You could say, Thanks Bill. And you could tell him you think he?s a very brave guy.
Dul: Huh?
Dad: Sure, Honey. Tell him he?s really brave. You could say, Bill, there are very few guys who are willing to risk giving up high school for a girl. I appreciate the chance you?re taking. Remind him that the two of you might be lucky enough to have a little baby together. Tell him you?d like to plan the future with him. He can go get some little job-maybe making hamburgers some place-and when he gets home you?ll fix him mac and cheese.
Dulcinea made a face. She hates mac and cheese.
Dad: Well, if you?d like to avoid cooking dinners and skipping high school, you can always kill the kid.
Dul: Dad, that?s gross.
Dad: I know it, honey, so maybe you?d like to have his company when you have to go through it. You could say to him, Bill, I think we should get an abortion, but honestly I want to have you there when they do it. Say to him, They stick these metal things up inside a girl and scrape the little baby away, so would you come into the OR with me? After all, it is our little baby. Ours together, Bill.
Dulcineas made a face like she'd been offered creamed squash.
Dul: Why does anyone do it.
Dad: Yes it does get complicated, huh, Dulcie? You know, after you?ve said all this to Bill, he might be a little less excited about making love than when the idea first hit him, but if he?s got any sort of head at all on his shoulders, he?ll start thinking about birth control.
Dulcinea smiled and nodded.
Dad: Well Dulcie, I think you should tell him that?s a good idea, and you?d like to talk it over with him. Say, That?s a good idea, what do you think we should use? Wanna use a rubber or that foam stuff? ?(more graphic details of abortion....)
He may think that you?re talking too much, Dulcie, but women should talk; after all it?s your body, right?
Dul: Nodding, I guess so.
Dad: After all he loves you, right?
Dul: Shrugs. I guess.
Dad: Well of course he does. Tell him how happy that makes you. Say, I love you, Bill, and I know you love me, and that?s going to make my parents very happy. They?re going to be thrilled to learn about the intensity of our relationship. Grab him by the hand and say, Let?s go tell Mom and Dad right now.
Dulcinea put her hand over her mouth again to keep herself from giggling, trying to keep a straight face.
Say to him, It?ll be our first night together, Bill. Go rent a room at the Downtown Hilton, and have them send up room service with some champagne so that it?ll be really nice for us. It only costs a hundred dollars. Bring me some flowers.
Dul: Oh Pa, lots of guys have a hundred dollars these days.
She looked at me, a small smile on her lips, and some affection for me showing in her eyes, as though she was both fond and proud of me for having faith in her, for giving her more freedom and respect than she expected. I had the feeling that she might have come across the room and given me a hug, except that that is an awkward thing to do when you are thirteen and building your independence, your identity.
I would have liked that. A hug.
Rarely able to keep my mouth shut for long, I started talking again, telling her, See Dulcie, if you say Yes to him this way, you?ll avoid having to reject him. He, himself, may reject all the responsibility you?re offering him. And maybe you?ll both be safer and stronger because you talked about it.
Dul: Yeah, I guess so.
Dad: You see, probably, at first, he would have been thinking that his big problem is to get you to have sex with him, but with this sort of answer you get yourself out of the way, you will stop being the problem, and then he?ll notice there are other questions, like: how much do you really care for one another, and what does all of that lead to.
Dul: Hey, yeah, that?s right. Hey, I got to do my homework; we got finals next week.
But she stuck around for a while talking with Astoria about a blouse. A little later she started toward her room, but after a few steps she turned back to face me. There was a tough little gleam in her eye. She very independently said to me, Well, what if I want to? The pill is very safe, you know. Lots of kids use it, you know.
A wave of tiredness swept over me. I wondered if she?d heard anything I?d tried to tell her. Had anything I?d said made it easier for her to handle her life?
Dul: Well?
She was failing to understand that I was serious, that I was finished with fucking around, that I meant what I said. Was it the same with Astoria, I wondered? Did she fail to understand, too?
Dul: Well, should I say Yes?
Dad: I?m you father, honey. I?m happy to share with you everything I know and everything I have. But your life is your own. Live it as best you can.
Dul: Okay. And skipped lightly out of the room.
:lol:
Wonder if this approach might work with program parents.... Yes, by all means, send your child to a program; think of what you'll have to look forward to..........you know the rest of the story.
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Right mate I hate to say it but me and Dul went out about 2 hours later and I banged her up the gary glitter.
Bill.
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I would try and talk to him, and find out where his passions lie. If it means you have to spend some money on him, so be it. It's not rewarding him for bad behaivor. It's getting him focused on more healthy things for entertainment purposes.
If you cannot deal with him, and need to remove him from the situation, then I recommend Heritage School in Provo, UT. They've been around for 20+ years and have never been acused of abuse. They are a program that puts money back into their programs to make it fun for the kids. They also combine a ton of therapy too.
Good luck.
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Red flag 1: The location is Provo, Utah. Never send your kid to Utah. A quick search of Fornits will tell you why.
Red flag 2: It's NATSAP. Never send your kid to a NATSAP school. HLA's owner, Len Buccellato, runs NATSAP, and HLA is being sued into oblivion for several good reasons.
As for the abuse allegations, well.. paging CCM Girl 1989 to the thread. CCM Girl, you have a thread holding on the main forum, CCM Girl to the main forum, please...
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No, even though Heritage School is located in Provo, Utah Heritage is a very good school.
When I went there it was pretty strict, but they had a ton of great things to counteract that pool, volleyball, softball field, horses. It is way more lax now. I've talked to students recently released and I described the way it was back in 1986-1989 and they all say it's way different and for the better, they were shocked at how strict it was when I went there.
They go off campus a lot more, they have a soccor team for the girls (which they started the last year I was there) and we played off campus. The boys have a baseball or football team that competes off campus too. They have co-ed dances. It's like a boarding/RTC.
If you are going to send them away for help, which I would rather NOT see, but if you must Heritage is a good place. NATSAP no NATSAP, I don't care. They put a lot of money back into the program to make sure the kids have the best, and they do.
Most of the programs on here on this site started out bad, and got worse. Heritage started out kinda shitty but started to get better and better over the 3 years I was there, and now it's a decent safe place. They now pick and choose who they accept in. That allows them not to have to run such a tight ship. They are allowed phone calls from approved friends.......where as that was not the case when I was there. Only your parents once a week for 10 minutes. Some programs get better with age.........some go bad, kinda like wine I suppose.
But, try to talk to your child first. Always go that route, and use this school as a last resort.
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You can check out a couple things:
1. The schools website www.heritagertc.org (http://www.heritagertc.org)
2. The group on myspace that has a bunch of the students on there. There is a topic called, when were you there? Started by me. I urge you to go check it out. I say what it was like back in the 80's, and the girls told me how it is now. http://groups.myspace.com/heritagertcutah (http://groups.myspace.com/heritagertcutah)
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*blinks*
Mmm, crow. Tastes like chicken. I'm glad I asked you.
Wonder what they're doing in Provo, of all places, and what they're doing in NATSAP then.
They now pick and choose who they accept in.
Ah. That explains it.
It'd still be expensive, it'd still separate you from your son, and if you were to make such a decision, I'd recommend reading the fine print carefully; programs often have agreements to move students between each other, and one false move on his part and he could end up somewhere else.
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If you don't like what I have to say, geez I am so sorry!!!! I'm not going to be the type of person 100% against programs. I think it is a much better program then you give it credit for! If they decide to send their son away,, because they are too much of wimp to deal with it themselves...then I hope it's too a good program like Heritage.
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but even if a programme is quite caring and non abusive, why would you be in favour of it in principal?
Wouldn't a kid who is potenitially in real trouble do better by being drawn closer to loved ones? I can see the argument that if a kid is going to be sent they should at least go somewhere compassionate but without knowing what the kids specific problem is, when would it ever be wise to send a kid to a place which has a catch all approach? How can any broad programme deal adequately with all adolescent problems when they can be diverse and complex?
The heritage website for instance lists a pretty wide range of things to send kids for. Can one place really adequately meet the needs of both kids with aspergers disorder as well as kids who have mental illnesses or behavioural issues?
This look to me like the best a parent can hope for is that their kid wont have a terrible time. But this does not necessarily adress the problems the kid may be having.
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but even if a programme is quite caring and non abusive, why would you be in favour of it in principal?
Wouldn't a kid who is potenitially in real trouble do better by being drawn closer to loved ones? I can see the argument that if a kid is going to be sent they should at least go somewhere compassionate but without knowing what the kids specific problem is, when would it ever be wise to send a kid to a place which has a catch all approach? How can any broad programme deal adequately with all adolescent problems when they can be diverse and complex?
The heritage website for instance lists a pretty wide range of things to send kids for. Can one place really adequately meet the needs of both kids with aspergers disorder as well as kids who have mental illnesses or behavioural issues?
This look to me like the best a parent can hope for is that their kid wont have a terrible time. But this does not necessarily adress the problems the kid may be having.
Good points OZ girl. Personally, I think parents should seek help in their community or as close to home as possible. Sending kids away is NOT the best way to deal with teen behavioral issues. Family therapy, particularly multisystemic therapy has been PROVEN to be the most effective, even for the most difficult kids.
Maia Szalavitz should know. She wrote a best seller on the topic. Parents should at least visit her website and educate themselves about this industry and what works according to experts. She spent 2 years researching the troubled teens industry and was also in a program herself. Definitly a book that every parent SHOULD BE REQUIRED to read, IMO.
http://www.helpatanycost.com (http://www.helpatanycost.com)
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I have always said I would prefer parents take a more hands on approach when it comes to raising a teen. There is always going to be problems during that time, no child is perfect. They are mini-adults that are testing by trial and error.
But, there are parents who just plain suck at parenting. It's not the kids fault, the communities fault, but the PARENTS fault!!!! I can tell you that Heritage has always done things properly. I was in Heber, Utah when the facility was being built in Provo. They put soooo much money into it, they built 5 brand new homes, put in a horse stable, and arena stocked with 8 horses complete with riding instructor, a brand new pool with a slide that they would cover in winter so we could still use it, a huge softball field, a professional volleyball pit, and we had teachers with different classrooms atleast 10 of them if not more who all teached different subjects. We had only women working at the girls school, not "houseparents". It was a pretty good place in the 80's, and over the years they've dumped even more money into it making it better.
They have been around for 20 years without lawsuits, there's not a bunch of kids crying on myspace about abuse, which they would atleast complain to their friends if it happened. I don't know, there are parents who get a big fat F in parenting, and there kids shouldn't have to suffer because of that.
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Deleted
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I agree with Might Ard. Coercive treatment doesn't help kids, it bullies them into submission. Not saying that's Heritage, but any level system that makes kids earn basic human rights is not effective IMO.
Does Heritage accept kids under forced transport? Do they pay finders' fees to referral companies? Do parents get to see or talk to their kids regularly? The true test - can kids go home for the holidays or do they have to be at a certain "level" of behavior? Do they hunt kids down who run away and bring em' back or let them speak to law enforcement or a social worker? These are all questions I would personally ask if I was considering any kind of locked residential treatment program or school. I have many more.
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Deleted
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I would agree with aardvark but also argue that any place even a nice one which deals with such a wide breadth of adolescent issues needs to be questioned because nowhere can be all things to all people. How can a place possibly be effective in its treatment of such a wide range of problems. Even if a kid may be happier there than in an unhappy home it does not mean that if they have a specific issue they will be helped. it just means the harm will be minimised.
The other question I would ask is whether it is safe to have a 12 year old with aspergers in the same place with an angry 17 year old with behaviour issues without there being a strong possiblility of bullying. Or a naive 13 year old in with a sexually active drug taking 17 year old not being exposed to issues that they may not have the emotional maturity to cope with.
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And just because a kid goes willingly does not mean the facility is safe. Ask how many wwasps kids went there willingly and were not escorted, quite a few. Almost every program discussed here, has kids who will go willingly with their parents, not knowing what it's really like. Sometimes people don't realize they were abused in a program until years down the road until the brainwashing has worn off and you can see the experience for what it really was.
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The whole time I was at Heritage I didn't come across a lot of my peers that were escorted there. I would say the majority were brought by their parents. As a kid nobody wants to be forced to do something or go somewhere they don't know. It's human nature, we'd rather do what we want, when we want, and how we want.
I ran away several times, and they had a team of people that went out and located me. They are responsible for you. What are you supposed to do, turn to the parents and shrug your shoulders and go geez I am really sorry we can't find your child, and their missing......here's a map, and good luck to you! Call us when you've found them.
I believe children should have rights, but you're treating them like adults that don't have a lot of life experience under their belts. They don't. Being on the run is scary, and you can get killed because you're so vulnerable. I don't approve when teens are tried as adults either in a court of law. It seems like just yesterday to me when I was a kid, and fucking up all the time. There was many reasons why I did it. Frusteration, to get attention, and just because I thought I knew what I was doing, but didn't.
They don't hand out referral fee's to my knowledge. They have one school, with plenty of good reputation backing it, and don't need to fill a massive amount of beds. They don't accept everyone. I do not believe they are like the other schools on this board. I talk to kids and ask them questions, and compare it to my experiences and I feel like I can say without losing a wink of sleep that it's a very good school.
I was one of their tougher cases, I physically abused the staff, and got into fights with other kids. Hell, I even bit a staff member once. She had to go to the hospital, and she lost feeling in her arm for a few months. There was no retaliation. There wasn't many of us there that did that sort of thing. Granted I was not like that when I first got there. It was only after a couple years that I got frusterated, and gave up. It was a 100% my parents fault, not Heritages. But, Heritage could not force my parents to take me home.
I will never convince the majority of people on here that placing children somewhere is ever exceptable. I realize that I am the minority. But, I don't give a shit. Really, I could care less. I pick and choose my battles. I know what I would like to see happen. I know certain programs that are abusive that need to be closed. This is not one of them, and it's not because I get kickbacks from them, or have decided to go to the other side and become an Ed Con. I say these things because parents come here looking for alternatives, and they have the money to send the kids away, and they're going to do it anyway. Why not speak up and say, if you absolutly must then I recommend so and so.
The sooner you realize that good programs for kids are here to stay, and you focus your energies to close all the ones that are abusive, then we might be doing some good around here.
Sorry, but as tired as you're getting of my shit, I am getting tired of yours too. But, whatever! A lot of us have known eachother for quite sometime now, and I respect you all having your own opinions. We are all different people with different experiences relating to all this!
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Oopsy, that was me!
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CCM apparently you don't realize there is something wrong with hunting down runaways for the purpose of hauling them back to the facility. If the kid runs from abuse and is taken back (meaning he/she is not allowed to be taken by the school security guards to a police station to report abuse) then that's a bad thing. It happens more than you know apparently.
Also, Why do you think so many reports of abuse go unreported?
This is one of the reasons. Kids have NO WAY to report abuse. Their parents don't believe them (the kid is manipulating). If the kid runs and is captured, he/she is taken right back to the facility they ran from and punished.
No need to be defensive. Just trying to let parents know they need to ask what the school's policy is on runaways. Will their kid be given a chance to report abuse to authorities (and their parents) or just captured and punished?
As for forced transport, being forced into treatment is not the best way to go. Many kids are tricked into it and that's a cop out, IMO. I have heard of parents drugging their own kids to make it easier for transporters. That's sick, IMO! Get your kid help but don't terrorize them. That's pathetic. Besides, then there are the cases of kids being abused by transporters. They are treated like prisoners, IMO. It's disgusting and should be outlawed. If they were 18, they could not be taken against their will anywhere. That's called kidnapping and it's a federal offense.
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You're right, they should just let them run away, and not try to look for them. Puhleese!!!!!!!!
What the heck are you smoking???? It's dangerous out there. The people that take in runaways a lot of the time are hiding from the law themselves.
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One more thing, on the way back we will swing by the police station so they can interview you, like the don't already have enough crap to deal with! This is the real world folks.
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CCM, do you not understand that kids who run away are often running from abusive treatment? I don't care what your situation or experience was. There are kids who run from being abused and are caught and taken back to the abusive facility ... sometimes with the help of local law enforcement. Program owners tell the police, not to worry, the kid is a manipulator, a troubled teen. You can't believe a word these kids say. They will say anything to get out of a program. So instead of being able to report abuse, they are silenced. And made to face the potential for punitive consequences. The cycle of abuse continues. Behind closed doors.
I suggest you stop projecting your own experience and think about why there needs to be laws to protect runaways. They should NEVER be taken back until they are interviewed by someone outside the program, preferably law enforcement and social services. If they allege abusive conditions, practices, or policies, the state should be MANDATED to investigate BEFORE taking the kid back. Any decent parent would want this, BTW.
:flame:
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One more thing, on the way back we will swing by the police station so they can interview you, like the don't already have enough crap to deal with! This is the real world folks.
Guys, a lot of what CCM girl is saying is just good sense. Let's be fair there are times when all kids and young adults don't wanna do something that they've basically gotta do (truancy rates prove this I think) and you can't go passing laws that strip back parental authority. Kids generally get up to crazy shit and it's not always possible to tell the sifference between teenaged acting out and more deeply motivated behaviour. I think very clearly it is a serious problem for kids to be in an environment where they have no contact with the outside world and therefore have no ability to contact a neutral third party with a problem.
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I've heard of some programs who pay a "bounty" to locals for assistance in capturing runaways and bringing them back to the program. Real nice, eh? You think they would take an abused kid to get help and lose a chance to make some extra money? Not likely. The kid is screwed no matter whether he/she runs or stays in an abusive program. There's no escape.
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One more thing, on the way back we will swing by the police station so they can interview you, like the don't already have enough crap to deal with! This is the real world folks.
Guys, a lot of what CCM girl is saying is just good sense. Let's be fair there are times when all kids and young adults don't wanna do something that they've basically gotta do (truancy rates prove this I think) and you can't go passing laws that strip back parental authority. Kids generally get up to crazy shit and it's not always possible to tell the sifference between teenaged acting out and more deeply motivated behaviour. I think very clearly it is a serious problem for kids to be in an environment where they have no contact with the outside world and therefore have no ability to contact a neutral third party with a problem.
We are talking about abused runaways being hunted down and forced back into an abusive program because no one gives a shit. And that is just plain unacceptable. Runaway abused teens who are caught should absolutely have the right to be taken to the local authorities where they can call their parents and make a formal complaint against the program. Following this, the authorities would be required to investigate the allegations made in the complaint BEFORE allowing the child to return. This is a no brainer, IMO. Shit, how hard is it to give kids the benefit of the doubt instead of labeling them liars and manipulators? If you run and it's because you were abused, then you need protection, not a one-way ticket back to the hellhole you ran from.
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One more thing, on the way back we will swing by the police station so they can interview you, like the don't already have enough crap to deal with! This is the real world folks.
Guys, a lot of what CCM girl is saying is just good sense. Let's be fair there are times when all kids and young adults don't wanna do something that they've basically gotta do (truancy rates prove this I think) and you can't go passing laws that strip back parental authority. Kids generally get up to crazy shit and it's not always possible to tell the sifference between teenaged acting out and more deeply motivated behaviour. I think very clearly it is a serious problem for kids to be in an environment where they have no contact with the outside world and therefore have no ability to contact a neutral third party with a problem.
We are talking about abused runaways being hunted down and forced back into an abusive program because no one gives a shit. And that is just plain unacceptable. Runaway abused teens who are caught should absolutely have the right to be taken to the local authorities where they can call their parents and make a formal complaint against the program. Following this, the authorities would be required to investigate the allegations made in the complaint BEFORE allowing the child to return. This is a no brainer, IMO. Shit, how hard is it to give kids the benefit of the doubt instead of labeling them liars and manipulators? If you run and it's because you were abused, then you need protection, not a one-way ticket back to the hellhole you ran from.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with this. I'm not and I can't read anything into CCM girl's post that indicates that she is. Kids very clearly need to be able to contact parents, law enforcement agents or lawyers with ease and in confidence regardless of whether they are in a program or not. I'll be honest and say I am having difficulty constructing an internally rational set of standards I'd like to see applied here. The issue is too complex for a single set of rules to cover, the list of moral or ethical issues pertaining to the teen behaviour modification issues is as long as my arm and this is only one small bit of it.
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CCM, do you not understand that kids who run away are often running from abusive treatment? I don't care what your situation or experience was. There are kids who run from being abused and are caught and taken back to the abusive facility ... sometimes with the help of local law enforcement. Program owners tell the police, not to worry, the kid is a manipulator, a troubled teen. You can't believe a word these kids say. They will say anything to get out of a program. So instead of being able to report abuse, they are silenced. And made to face the potential for punitive consequences. The cycle of abuse continues. Behind closed doors.
I suggest you stop projecting your own experience and think about why there needs to be laws to protect runaways. They should NEVER be taken back until they are interviewed by someone outside the program, preferably law enforcement and social services. If they allege abusive conditions, practices, or policies, the state should be MANDATED to investigate BEFORE taking the kid back. Any decent parent would want this, BTW.
:flame:
Oh really, you don't care what my situation, or experience was? Well, I think a lot of parents and other people here do. I'd rather get information from someone like me (a straight shooter), then somebody like you who can't see both sides of things, because you were never in the schools I was. It is a very complex issue!!!! That cannot be solved overnight. Do us a favor, and stick to what you know to be fact, and I will keep sticking to what I know since I experienced it myself.
These kids deserve to be able to talk to authorities, but truth be told, there are kids who lie, and manipulate. Then there are the kids who are telling the truth. BTW, I was both. There was a time in my life I exaggerated, and lied to manipulate people. Then there was a time, that honest to god I was telling the truth, but nobody believed me, and it sucked.
Oh sorry, I shouldn't be speaking from personal experience you hate that!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
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These kids deserve to be able to talk to authorities, but truth be told, there are kids who lie, and manipulate.
So what? Let the authorities straighten out fact and fiction - it's their job. Denying access to report abuse because "some" kids "lie" and "manipulate" is wrong, period. This is fundamentally at odds with a a patient's rights as well as laws governing abuse reporting by schools.
Your statement is just plain wrong on many levels.
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These kids deserve to be able to talk to authorities, but truth be told, there are kids who lie, and manipulate.
So what? Let the authorities straighten out fact and fiction - it's their job. Denying access to report abuse because "some" kids "lie" and "manipulate" is wrong, period. This is fundamentally at odds with a a patient's rights as well as laws governing abuse reporting by schools.
Your statement is just plain wrong on many levels.
Well said.
::cheers::
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One more thing, on the way back we will swing by the police station so they can interview you, like the don't already have enough crap to deal with! This is the real world folks.
Guys, a lot of what CCM girl is saying is just good sense. Let's be fair there are times when all kids and young adults don't wanna do something that they've basically gotta do (truancy rates prove this I think) and you can't go passing laws that strip back parental authority. Kids generally get up to crazy shit and it's not always possible to tell the sifference between teenaged acting out and more deeply motivated behaviour. I think very clearly it is a serious problem for kids to be in an environment where they have no contact with the outside world and therefore have no ability to contact a neutral third party with a problem.
We are talking about abused runaways being hunted down and forced back into an abusive program because no one gives a shit. And that is just plain unacceptable. Runaway abused teens who are caught should absolutely have the right to be taken to the local authorities where they can call their parents and make a formal complaint against the program. Following this, the authorities would be required to investigate the allegations made in the complaint BEFORE allowing the child to return. This is a no brainer, IMO. Shit, how hard is it to give kids the benefit of the doubt instead of labeling them liars and manipulators? If you run and it's because you were abused, then you need protection, not a one-way ticket back to the hellhole you ran from.
Yup, it is a no brainer. What amazes me is how blind some folks are not because they are necessarily stupid, but because they can't grasp the concept that just being locked up in a program with no rights is abuse. Advocating that teens shouldn't be trusted because some of them lie or manipulate is bullshit. That's exactly how these programs CONTROL the children and their parents. It's a vicious cycle. How about this: SCREW THE PROGRAMS. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO CAN'T BE TRUSTED. THEY ARE THE SUPREME MANIPULATORS. THEY ARE THE ABUSERS.
::armed::
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I have seen more than a few cases where the child was beaten up severely by their oh so sorry parents and where the parents have tried to send them away in order to avoid the bruises or broken limbs to be detected.
Also sexual abuses of the child being done by an uncle or other relative have resulted in the child being send away in order to avoid scandal for the family in the local community.
Of the private owned institution would not try to bring their customer - the parents - to justice. If they do, they would loose income.
I am fully aware that a child on the run is very stressful and in anger of being a victim of a crime. But when a child i recaptured there should be a holding period of perhaps a week in a public controlled institution before the child i brought back. The child needs rest and claimed abuse of children should investigated.
That is why we in my country have so much control and not even we are 100 percent flawless.
Just last summer people began to wonder why kids down to 8 year wandered alone along roadsides in a town 60 kilometres from my town without adult present. And we was talking 11 p.m. Investigation showed that it was a punishment in a institution that a child should walk the amount 8 kilometres alone at night if the child was 8 years old. If the child was 11, the punishment was 11 kilometres.
Just imagine what it would have looked like if a car had struck the poor child.
Of course the instution is now shut down, but the case showed that our politician had received negative reports about that exact instution for almost two year without doing something.
And no public interference when a child runs away? It is a grab bag for abuse of the children.
We have to recognise that even drug use can be a result of the child trying to forget abuse by parents and other relatives. Not that I claim it in this case. But generally it is a possibility. No program should take part in a cover-up, but sometimes the ecomomy rules over justice.
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Well then figure out where the money should come from, because right now these departments are overworked and underpaid.
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Well then figure out where the money should come from, because right now these departments are overworked and underpaid.
Fucking tax the programs. Charge em big bucks for trash removal. Getting money is NOT the issue. This is a mindset that has to be changed. Hell, you got even former program kids advocating that "some" kids can't be trusted. WTF? A couple runaways a month isn't going to bankrupt law enforcement. Investigating programs is the job of the police, CPS and human services. In other words, the state. Imagine if even one runaway makes it to safety and reports abuse. The program gets investigated and abuse is confirmed. This benefits the runaway and the OTHER CHILDREN. Not to mention their parents who usually don't know what the hell is going on in these institutions. They wouldn't need to FILE A LAWSUIT as a recourse for being defrauded and their child being abused because they would be told COME GET YOUR KID MOM AND POP.
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I have seen more than a few cases where the child was beaten up severely by their oh so sorry parents and where the parents have tried to send them away in order to avoid the bruises or broken limbs to be detected.
Also sexual abuses of the child being done by an uncle or other relative have resulted in the child being send away in order to avoid scandal for the family in the local community.
Of the private owned institution would not try to bring their customer - the parents - to justice. If they do, they would loose income.
I am fully aware that a child on the run is very stressful and in anger of being a victim of a crime. But when a child i recaptured there should be a holding period of perhaps a week in a public controlled institution before the child i brought back. The child needs rest and claimed abuse of children should investigated.
That is why we in my country have so much control and not even we are 100 percent flawless.
Just last summer people began to wonder why kids down to 8 year wandered alone along roadsides in a town 60 kilometres from my town without adult present. And we was talking 11 p.m. Investigation showed that it was a punishment in a institution that a child should walk the amount 8 kilometres alone at night if the child was 8 years old. If the child was 11, the punishment was 11 kilometres.
Just imagine what it would have looked like if a car had struck the poor child.
Of course the instution is now shut down, but the case showed that our politician had received negative reports about that exact instution for almost two year without doing something.
And no public interference when a child runs away? It is a grab bag for abuse of the children.
We have to recognise that even drug use can be a result of the child trying to forget abuse by parents and other relatives. Not that I claim it in this case. But generally it is a possibility. No program should take part in a cover-up, but sometimes the ecomomy rules over justice.
Excellent post! Grab bag for abuse of the children. You nailed that one perfectly!
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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These kids deserve to be able to talk to authorities, but truth be told, there are kids who lie, and manipulate. Then there are the kids who are telling the truth. BTW, I was both. There was a time in my life I exaggerated, and lied to manipulate people. Then there was a time, that honest to god I was telling the truth, but nobody believed me, and it sucked.
And who will determine who is lying? The program?
You have to err on the side of caution. If for no other reason than what you stated, "honest to god I was telling the truth, but nobody believed me, and it sucked." We all have that right, to be heard before we're convicted and sentenced. The truth 'usually' comes out, when due process has been served.
My grandson was convicted of holding up signs that said the other team sucked, running through the stands and out onto the court, during a volleyball game. He was convicted and sentenced to being banned from all extra curricular activities for 3 months. Principal tried and sentenced him based on what 3 people had told her about a "group" of boys that he was lumped in with. She also claimed that their behavior was so bad the ref threatened to call the game.
According to the coach, no such thing occured and she didn't even recall any of the boys running onto the court at inappropriate times.
My daughter did some research and couldn't find one person to support that her son was involved or that what did happen was anywhere near the degree the principal has expressed. In fact, there were several, including a teacher, who refuted that my g'son was involved. Did her 'witnesses' even know my g'son? Apparently not.
The principal had to eat crow, but in order to save face maintain her position of 'control' she only "reduced his sentence". He was banned for the rest of the semester, two weeks, because he was associated with the group at all. He had to miss one or two of the girls volleyball games and a Friday nite social, for absolutely no good reason.
Kids behaviors need to be addressed, but they frequently don't get a fair deal. Too many assumptions and a lack of respect. Not enough respect to even bother with getting the facts. What the hell does that teach???
Had my daughter not advocated for my g'son he would be serving a sentence he didn't deserve. Had she not asked questions herself and just took the word of the principal, who was acting on someone elses allegations, she'd be assuming my g'son was becoming a wild child who needed more control. She may have even doled out more punishment at home and/or forbid him from attending activities alone. Which could very well have soured his attitude about adults and school in general. When kids are treated unjustly it breeds resentment and opens the door for all kinds of issues and problems. The least being a attitude of "fuck it".
Had this hysterical drama queen, zero tolerance principal been dealing with g'ma she would've removed the sentence all together or next on the agenda, she'd be defending herself to the school board. Kids deserve the same due process we adults expect. When you boil it all down, it's a demonstration of respect... something soarly missing in kid lives.
Exceptions? Yeh, but this is the general attitude toward kids. Like Mr. Sharpe at Heartland was quoted as saying, "As adults it's our job to talk. It's your job to listen." Dumb fuck. Kids don't hear a word you say after that. It's like a protective layer of skin grows over the ear drum at that very moment. And their not listening could ultimately end in their death due to abusive punishment. Ageism is alive and well. We need safeguards wherever they can be put into place and to err on the side of caution.
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Well then figure out where the money should come from, because right now these departments are overworked and underpaid.
BS. While a few may be underfunded and overworked, it's more times their lack of caring and duty. You can't imagine what has been done to get the authorities in Ga to do their jobs. Utah promotes Wilderness on their website. The director of licensing has excused his fellow saints for violations. Forget Missouri. And Montana is allowing self-regulation.
There is no easy solution. Parents and advocates must hold the authorities responsible. And look at the Sudweeks case. Her punishment- can't run a program in Juab county for the rest of her life. Anywhere else, is just fine. Skyline Journey shut down, open under a new name. Many just like it.
Regulation is not going to ensure that kids will be safe. What it ensures is that the program will be required to report abuses, injuries, deaths; so we can get a real handle of the "effectiveness" of the industry. There will also be a sturcture in place so authorities can go in to investigate abuse without a lengthy process to gain access to the 'private corporation'.
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Oh sorry, I shouldn't be speaking from personal experience you hate that!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone here is speaking from their own experience, that can't be helped. I think what people take issue with is when people apply their own experience to everyone else and assume everyone and their experiences are somehow similar. That's why a lot of WWASPS graduates sound just like you, consider themselves straight shooters, they had a great time in WWASPS and are thankful for it. Should we apply their experience to everyone else, and assume everyone else will have a nice time too? This is how edcons are born.
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This is how edcons are born.
Bingo. ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::rocker::
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You are all so one sided. You guys also live in a fantasy world. Wake up, and smell the coffee. :-?
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Would that be Folger's or Starbucks? Maybe certified organic, free-trade?
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You are all so one sided. You guys also live in a fantasy world. Wake up, and smell the coffee. :-?
Actually, it sounds to me like YOU are the one who needs to wake up. Put down your koolaid and start using your critical thinking skills anon. Maybe then you'll "get it".
:rofl:
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These kids deserve to be able to talk to authorities, but truth be told, there are kids who lie, and manipulate. Then there are the kids who are telling the truth. BTW, I was both. There was a time in my life I exaggerated, and lied to manipulate people. Then there was a time, that honest to god I was telling the truth, but nobody believed me, and it sucked.
And who will determine who is lying? The program?
You have to err on the side of caution. If for no other reason than what you stated, "honest to god I was telling the truth, but nobody believed me, and it sucked." We all have that right, to be heard before we're convicted and sentenced. The truth 'usually' comes out, when due process has been served.
My grandson was convicted of holding up signs that said the other team sucked, running through the stands and out onto the court, during a volleyball game. He was convicted and sentenced to being banned from all extra curricular activities for 3 months. Principal tried and sentenced him based on what 3 people had told her about a "group" of boys that he was lumped in with. She also claimed that their behavior was so bad the ref threatened to call the game.
According to the coach, no such thing occured and she didn't even recall any of the boys running onto the court at inappropriate times.
My daughter did some research and couldn't find one person to support that her son was involved or that what did happen was anywhere near the degree the principal has expressed. In fact, there were several, including a teacher, who refuted that my g'son was involved. Did her 'witnesses' even know my g'son? Apparently not.
The principal had to eat crow, but in order to save face maintain her position of 'control' she only "reduced his sentence". He was banned for the rest of the semester, two weeks, because he was associated with the group at all. He had to miss one or two of the girls volleyball games and a Friday nite social, for absolutely no good reason.
Kids behaviors need to be addressed, but they frequently don't get a fair deal. Too many assumptions and a lack of respect. Not enough respect to even bother with getting the facts. What the hell does that teach???
Had my daughter not advocated for my g'son he would be serving a sentence he didn't deserve. Had she not asked questions herself and just took the word of the principal, who was acting on someone elses allegations, she'd be assuming my g'son was becoming a wild child who needed more control. She may have even doled out more punishment at home and/or forbid him from attending activities alone. Which could very well have soured his attitude about adults and school in general. When kids are treated unjustly it breeds resentment and opens the door for all kinds of issues and problems. The least being a attitude of "fuck it".
Had this hysterical drama queen, zero tolerance principal been dealing with g'ma she would've removed the sentence all together or next on the agenda, she'd be defending herself to the school board. Kids deserve the same due process we adults expect. When you boil it all down, it's a demonstration of respect... something soarly missing in kid lives.
Exceptions? Yeh, but this is the general attitude toward kids. Like Mr. Sharpe at Heartland was quoted as saying, "As adults it's our job to talk. It's your job to listen." Dumb fuck. Kids don't hear a word you say after that. It's like a protective layer of skin grows over the ear drum at that very moment. And their not listening could ultimately end in their death due to abusive punishment. Ageism is alive and well. We need safeguards wherever they can be put into place and to err on the side of caution.
I think this is one of the most insightful and honest posts ever to go on these boards. Nothing is more harmful to the development of young adults than the shitty examples of their authority figures.
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You are all so one sided. You guys also live in a fantasy world. Wake up, and smell the coffee. :-?
Oh, no, we see both sides, unfortunately. Knowing both sides, we choose to be on the fair and right side. Some posters here have been the unwilling inmates of abusive facilities. Were you? How can you claim to know so much?
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Nothing is more harmful to the development of young adults than the shitty examples of their authority figures.
Thanks to my experiences in program I now have an innate paranoia of authority figures. I have no criminal record or any reason to be worried, but I still get nervous around police. I never used to be that way. I see them as goons on a power trip who would rather toy with me for kicks than "serve and protect." I was never this way before i went into program. I don't trust authority anymore. I'm more cynical than ever. I have no faith whatsoever in government or the law. Maybe i shouldn't have any faith in them. After all, what has the law done to help take down these programs.
What has the government done? Have you seen the amount of money contributed by Ken Kay to the republican party? You don't think this influences decision making (especially locally) even a little? In this country we have legalized corruption in the form of campaign contributions. I do not think the framers of the constitution had K street in mind when they envisioned the right to petition our government. "Petition" in my mind, does not invoke visions of dollar signs. The corporation killed democracy.
The way i see it, if you can't trust authority, then that authority is not legitimate, and you have to find your own justice. Derive from that what you will.
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I would say the issue is not entirely that kids are running away or whether they are lying about abuse. Some kids, just like some adults probably do tell lies from time to time. The issue is that the client of a tbs is not the kid at all but the parent. Therefore any TBS, even a good one has a vested financial interest in taking the side of the parent. It cant possibly therefore be expected to remain neutral.
I think the bigger question is why a kid will run from a place repeatedly in the first place. Either the environment is so awful that the kid cant stand being there (abusive or not) or the kid feels so much need to get their parents attention that they are willing to make a bold statement by running repeatedly. In both of these scenarios it does not seem like the TBS is helping the kid.
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I think the bigger question is why a kid will run from a place repeatedly in the first place.
It is often "that awful that the kids can't stand being there". In my experience, kids do not have to lie about their experiences in program, though many believe what they say to be lies becuase things sounds so bad. If the parents or authorities were doing their jobs, giving people the benifit or the doubt, and investigating the situation, things might turn out differently. You would think more people would be suspicious considering the "coincidental" likenesses of the stories from kids all over the country.
Reading the CEDU forum on fornits is like reading from my memory, and the same shit is happening over and over and over again. I wish more parents did research on the internet. The would find the same stories their kids try to tell them (labeled as manipulative) repeated almost verbatim again and again. Sure some kids lie, but in my experience, most of them did not becuase the truth was bad enough.
I can understand a parent's scepticism though. Parents, who have entrusted their children to an institution, are more likely to believe the official program story. Keep in mind, many of them are also under a financial burden, having already paid in advance for the program. They often view their kids as "throwing their education away" when they get into trouble in program.
It has been my experience that debates are won based on who has the most persuasive arguments, the most experience, and the most time to argue. The program wins this competition every single time by restricting and/or manipulating communication between child and parent. When all you hear is one side of the story, it becomes the truth to most people. Just look at political polarization if you need a good example. Critical thinking skills are not valued anymore as, more and more, people look to others for answers they could (and probably should) find themselves.
Parents have no comprhension whatsoever of what goes on. It's one of those things you have to experience to truly know what it is like. There is no book or documentary that can really do it justice. There is no easy way to illustrate what it is like to have your mind cracked open and fucked with like a toy. In this way, it is not easy to describe exactly what made things hell.
Some programs physically beat you down, other programs break your mind, break your will, and remake you as a mindless pawn. When you're broken, it's like your watching your life being lived, rather than actually being behind the driver's seat. You relinquish control. You become who you must become to survive, and a part of you starves to death in the process. Physical injuries heal but the emotional death inflicted by these programs lasts a lifetime. I've seen people on this forum who got out of program 20 years ago, and they still are crushed by their experiences.
The worst of them never realize the abuse they underwent and as a result become supporters of the program, most likely sending their kids off at the slightest sign of independant thought. The victim becomes the victimizer, all the while living in a dream world where severity of punishment indicates love, where compassion is naive, where mercy is harmful. They start to believe that they know what other people think, and can "call you on your shit" when most of the time they have no idea what they are talking about.
Studies have shown (http://http://www.williams.edu/Psychology/Faculty/Kassin/files/Boston%20Globe%20Interrogations.pdf) that experienced cops, when asked to judge whether somebody was lying or not, more often than not, were wrong. When their results were compared to a group of randomly chosen people, it was discovered that the cops scored worse. Often they scored so badly that they would have been better of randomly guessing. The only difference is that the cops were more certain in their judgements.
This type of fanatical self-confidence Is what the staff are in these programs are infected with. They go off on power trips, fueled by their belief that their experiences somehow gave them supernatural insight into the minds of others. Often, this confidence aids in convincing kids that who they are is a lie. Eventually you believe it (almost all do for at least a time, though few would admit the shame of it), though endless the exercises, workshops, rap sessions etc. You are mentally raped in program and it carries a greater degree of shame. At least if you are raped you know you couldn't have prevented it. When they break you, at some point in time you think "i wasn't strong enough to resist."
I believe many program councelors and staff believe they are doing the right thing. I believe this to be for two reasons:
- how could one live if one did not believe this?
- they have gone through the same things?
Even then, it is doubtful many of them could keep themselves in this state of self denial for long. Staff in programs often burn out, after which they either leave, relapse, or both.
There are a few (thankfully rare) completely sociopathic staff members who know exactly what they are doing, and either derive enjoyment from it, or have no problems doing whatever it takes to put money in the bank.
Councelors in my program often went through the workshops (profeets et. al. for CEDU people) with the kids. They underwent the same Lifespring-esque programming we did. They ended up believing the shit they said, and it made it all the more convincing when they said it with conviction. When you are immersed in such an enviornment, it is futile to try to be normal or "work the program." If they suspected you were not "honest" enough about how you felt, even if you were being completely honest, they would apply more pressure until your head popped open and they could insert whatever truth they wanted you to believe.
Let me reiterate, the damage done by these programs is permanant. Things get blocked out, but they never go away, and when you ignore the past it pesters and pokes at you until you deal with it. My mother used to tell me to "get over it, you're out of there now, move on." At the same time, i never realized why now i am different. I never put two and two together (until just recently, when reading my memories online) to realize how much i had changed since i went into program:
i don't trust anybody more than superficially
it is worse with people i know
i rarely sleep
when i do i don't sleep well
i don't like to be around people anymore
i find comfort in isolation
i'm more paranoid than ever
I'm hoping somehow, by writing this, that maybe it will convince some parent not to send their kid away. I'm hoping maybe it will help somebody to remember, to get pissed off, to heal. I don't know whether it's possable to heal but i do know it is possable to shut down these programs. I know that will make me feel better, to know it will not happen to others. All it takes is a loud enough scream.
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It has been my experience that debates are won based on who has the most persuasive arguments, the most experience, and the most time to argue. The program wins this competition every single time by restricting and/or manipulating communication between child and parent. When all you hear is one side of the story, it becomes the truth to most people. Just look at political polarization if you need a good example. Critical thinking skills are not valued anymore as, more and more, people look to others for answers they could (and probably should) find themselves.
Thank you for putting that so well. As a parent with a child in an abusive facility, I understand the one-sidedness the programs use to their advantage. Any questioning of the program can get a parent labelled "negative" and shut out of the communication loop with their own child, and that can last as long as the program thinks necessary. From a parent's perspective, nothing is more agonizing and frustrating than being shut off from your child by a program you know is harming your child, and you feel powerless. You're right, though, eventually these programs will disappear like child labor did. I also encourage kids who "escape" these programs to sue the parent or parents that put them there. The chance of being sued by your own child would be a strong deterrent to the "ship 'em off and fix 'em" mentality.
Your voice in this will help, with the experience you share. You'll save kids first, then you'll see this "industry" wither and die. I feel so badly for you, and I'm also terrified my child will come out the same way. I think we'll all need some serious healing, and ending the industry is a step.
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And what exactly would suing your parents accomplish, save to widen the family rift that the program seeks to encourage? Do you really think that would discourage parents from sending their kids to program? You would have to prove parents knew of the abusive conditions (which is hard considering the program propoganda and lack of communication). Most parents have no idea what is going on at these programs, and if they did would be very very pissed.
As a parent with a child in an abusive facility
What is stopping you from going to the program unannounced, and demanding they release you child. If they refuse, come back with the cops and/or goons with guns. If there is some parental dispute as to the effectiveness of the program i suggest you work on convincing your (possably ex) partner of the dangers of these programs.
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And what exactly would suing your parents accomplish, save to widen the family rift that the program seeks to encourage?
For a lot of Fornits posters, it's not just about the money, the huge chunk ripped out of their lives, or the lasting emotional damage. It's about revenge, and there isn't much better revenge you can legally get than bankrupting your parents and redirecting their calls to your lawyer. The parents should just feel lucky they're taking it legally. Find a few posts by "SCL Survivor" (a Guest, who will no longer even talk to his parents or allow them to see his children) and some others. I explain why below.
Do you really think that would discourage parents from sending their kids to program?
If it makes headlines, definitely.
You would have to prove parents knew of the abusive conditions (which is hard considering the program propoganda and lack of communication). Most parents have no idea what is going on at these programs, and if they did would be very very pissed.
Here, you are wrong in many cases. Go take a look through the "More bullshit advice from ST" thread if you don't believe me. There are a lot of parents who have no clue, but there are a lot of parents who DO know what's going on and actively APPROVE of it, and then there are those who REFUSE to know what's going on or what's actually being done to their children. This last might be the largest group.
Needless to say, this sort of attitude spawns a fantastic amount of hatred and spite. The "Straight, Inc." board's biggest thread is "I just smoked a huge bowl of pot". Think on why.
As an aside, I don't personally care how this shit is ended; youthful revenge is a great motivator, but most of the lawsuits against WWASPS are done by parents, and the HLA takeout is fueled by former staff.
What is stopping you from going to the program unannounced, and demanding they release you child. If they refuse, come back with the cops and/or goons with guns. If there is some parental dispute as to the effectiveness of the program i suggest you work on convincing your (possably ex) partner of the dangers of these programs.
Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?
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Maybe suing the parent is a bad idea. I'm speaking from the point of view where a divorced couple is at odds. Father supports the program, mother does not. The child is denied contact with the mother now. The rift between child and father runs deep, and is not improving with "treatment". I'm afraid the child associates the horrors of the program with the father, and maybe rightly so. Being confined, abused, and denied all contact with the people you love...I just think some things can't be repaired. I'm very aware of what's going on in the program, and I despise it. The other parent involved here is aware of the abuses, but considers them necessary "tough love", so he is aware, but supports it anyway. I shouldn't have been thinking out loud basically about the lawsuit idea, but I believe in this individual case, so much has been lost that can never be recovered. How do you put a value on your teenage years?
Not my ex, either. My situation is that of step parent. The dangers have been expressed over and over, the program backing parent considers them isolated incidents. Every case is individual, and not as easily resolved as you would think. You've already mentioned people who think they have the supernatural ability to call you on your shit, and refuse to accept that they made a mistake by choosing an abusive program. A little sympathy for the parents who DO know the difference, please.
What you suggest about forcing her out is illegal for me, and like you, I have an aversion to the police. We would be arrested, the child would be returned, and nothing accomplished except confirming what ST people already think about us.
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And I forgot to sign in.
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I don't speak to mine nor would I ever allow them to see their grandchildren for that very reason. In one of the last times I spoke to them I made it clear that I have two bottles of champagne put away for when I hear of their death. I'll celebrate their demise and as soon as I get the chance head on up to the cemetary and piss on both their graves.
All of this because they put me in hla, ignored me when I begged for help, and knew what was going on all along.
They could die tommorow and I wouldnt care, and believe me I'm better off for it.
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So answer my question, ZA. Wasn't she supposed to get out in three months... more than three months ago?
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Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?
The balls? I want to see the child at home, not separated by a sheet of plexiglass and talking on a phone. Everyone seems to think I should Rambo the fucking door down, waste a few counselors when they pop up like mushrooms in my way, and make off with the child and live happily ever after. Jesus Christ, if this isn't done right and legally, then my girl's in there for a long, long time with no hope, and right now, hope is a good thing for her.
More than three months ago? check the time frames involved, she wouldn't have been there.
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I've never been of the opinion that you should waste a few of the counselors, ZA. (C'mon, you can guess my opinion, I don't even need to say it.)
But Jesus FUCK, what the hell is going ON?
(Sorry, my timetable is off.)
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The wheels of justice move slowly, unfortunately. Shysters get paid by the hour.
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Speaking seriously and legally, though, it sounds like those wheels need some grease.
Is your shyster actually good at what he's doing?
Have you contacted local news organizations to drum up some bad publicity?
Have you yet sued PV, itself? I'm sure you've got plans. Don't forget to sue individual people in their capacities of ___.
Are you actually suing her biological father right now?
Has your lawyer yet tried to become HER lawyer? This is actually possible in some cases. Has he tried it, or told you it's impossible for ___ legal reason, or have you even broached the matter with him? Even if it's probably not going to happen, it's worth bringing up.
All I can say is this: Look for opportunities, and ask yourself this: "What can I legally do that I am not doing right now?"
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For a lot of Fornits posters, it's not just about the money, the huge chunk ripped out of their lives, or the lasting emotional damage. It's about revenge, and there isn't much better revenge you can legally get than bankrupting your parents and redirecting their calls to your lawyer. The parents should just feel lucky they're taking it legally. Find a few posts by "SCL Survivor" (a Guest, who will no longer even talk to his parents or allow them to see his children) and some others. I explain why below.
My point is not the motive, rather that it is the wrong target. Maybe some people are out there for revenge, but they should at least direct their hatred into something productive, that might bring down a program and help other kids.
Here, you are wrong in many cases. Go take a look through the "More bullshit advice from ST" thread if you don't believe me. There are a lot of parents who have no clue, but there are a lot of parents who DO know what's going on and actively APPROVE of it, and then there are those who REFUSE to know what's going on or what's actually being done to their children. This last might be the largest group.
I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent. If parents know about what is going on, how do you prove it? The easiest legal target would be the program, rather than the parents. How many ex-students have the resources to pull off such a thing anyway? If students reconcile with their (probably loaded) parents, there is a good chance legal action would be sucessful against the program. Sure, there are some parents who just view program as a way to dispose of unwanted kids, and I sympathize with the desire to inflict revenge on them, but in my opinion it is far less productive than legal action directly against the program.
I would wager that there are a lot of students who believe that their parents knew what was going on in program, but for whom it was not the case. Had my parents and I not reconciled, and I had not heard the lies they were told, i would probably still hate them to this day. Most student i knew of never talked to their parents again.
As an aside, I don't personally care how this shit is ended; youthful revenge is a great motivator, but most of the lawsuits against WWASPS are done by parents, and the HLA takeout is fueled by former staff.
think on why?
Read through the Peninsula Village thread. ZA isn't the biological father and doesn't have the balls to take matters into his own hands physically. Hey ZA, when's she getting the hell out of there, anyway?
To clarify, i am not endorsing going columbine on the place, rather i am saying that if they refuse to release the child, and you have legal custody, you should call the cops. I'm not endorsing (notice italics) violent action to take down programs (heaven forbid such a thing should happen). When a legal path of action is possable, it should always be the first choice of action.
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There are also options of taking down programs that are neither legal, nor illegal. For example, smuggling in tape recorders for some trusted students to make creative use of. Other types of surveilance techniques can also work. When all the information is collected, send it to the press anonymously (although this is not necessary considering they do not have to release their sources).
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I've been warned by TSW to save that type of litigation until after she's out, since she would be at risk of retaliation from the facility. I've already seen what they do...Not worth the risk of her being seriously harmed.
Media attention would be the same. After, though...I'm gonna get medieval on their asses in full-on litigious pipe-hittin' fashion. I'll sue everyone involved, so fucking hard their dead ancestors have to reach for their wallets.
Our shyster is a good one. I actually trust him, and he's personally motivated. He was recommended by advocates.
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There are also options of taking down programs that are neither legal, nor illegal. For example, smuggling in tape recorders for some trusted students to make creative use of. Other types of surveilance techniques can also work. When all the information is collected, send it to the press anonymously (although this is not necessary considering they do not have to release their sources).
The facility I'm up against has no trusted students, just informants. Surveillance would be a bit difficult, too, given the terrain. I made one visit there and left such a remarkable impression on the staff with my view of their "treatment", they declared me persona non grata until they decide to let me come back.
It would be harder to film anything at PV because of the wilderness aspect, much harder than the Mexican government's easy view of High Impact. You're right, there are ways to gather info, but some facilities are already aware of the prying eyes of outsiders and take precautions.
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ZA, if it was me, I'd go nuclear and fucking dare them to do it, with a strong hint that anything they do to her will be used against them.
Maybe it's best that it's not me.
I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent.
You'd be wrong either way. I'm simply a very interested outsider, with zero personal stake in any of this. Apart from the people I've met through Fornits, none of my friends or acquaintances are in any way involved.
Do people really need a personal stake to say that child abuse is wrong?
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ZA, if it was me, I'd go nuclear and fucking dare them to do it, with a strong hint that anything they do to her will be used against them.
Maybe it's best that it's not me.
Or me. I second his opinion. Get your girl out of there by any means necessary. Staying in that place is far more damaging to her than any physical punishment they could possably hand out. She will be grateful to you in the long run (and my guess is she is not going to be very friendly with whoever kept her there).
If they break the law and hurt her... well i'll leave it to the imagination. If she was my daughter - it's probably best not say what i would do to them.
I'm guessing you were a student rather than a parent.
You'd be wrong either way. I'm simply a very interested outsider, with zero personal stake in any of this. Apart from the people I've met through Fornits, none of my friends or acquaintances are in any way involved.
Do people really need a personal stake to say that child abuse is wrong?
No you don't really need a personal stake to undertand that child abuse is wrong (although it does help to understand things). I said that becuase you seemed to blame the parents more than the program (by supporting lawsuits against the parents). Many students think their parents knew what was going on when many had no idea (at least mine didn't, and i hated them until i discovered this. I actually had nightmares in program where my mother was trying to kill me.)
All i'm saying is that lawsuits against the parents would be tear families even further apart, when suing the facility might bring truth out into the open, and help parents realize their kids were not lying after all.
One of biggest pains in the ass of being in program is the frustration of trying to tell the truth to your parents, but never being believed because of a slander campaign perpetrated by the program propogandists. Parents often trust the program a little too much, thinking, "they must know what they're doing." It is for this reason i do not blame the parents, most of them are mind-fucked, not sadists.
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Oh, I believe what my child is saying. Innocent until proven guilty, right, not the other way around as the programs would have you believe.
Honestly, both of you, I'm very close to snapping and going full-on ballistic and showing up on the door of the STU. It's very easy to say "I'd storm in and dare them to do this...", but we have an attorney who is advising us to stay back for now, launch hell when she's out. To go against his advice would cause him to ask to be released from the case, and we do want him to handle this. I have no patience either, I hate this waiting shit with a passion. I have family members calling and saying the same things as the two of you. You know, a lot of kids die in these programs, and that's the kind of physical harm I want to avoid.
Also, the other parent could sue US for some of your suggestions.
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Also, the other parent could sue US for some of your suggestions.
Hence the reason i was not very explicit about what i may or may not have implied.
I'm not suggesting at all anything illegal (i believe i was explicit in that several posts ago). I mean, if somebody was hurting / had hurt / had killed my daughter... well i just might sue the dickens out of em 8) . I hope i'm being crystal clear here.
Don't snap. Do it legally. But go for the throat now.
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Well, thanks for the insight you guys. It has helped.
Now, carry on..............
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To my knowledge and understanding there is no therapeutic technique or approach that shows statisically significant results across a wide range of complaints and ailments when external environmental factors such as inprovement in living environment, relative socio-economic status, use of medication etc are taken into account.
The lesson here is that "What works" will depend exclusively on you and your son.
That's a good point. Perhaps we should rather be discussing what does Not work. If it's not listed... er... use common sense?
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
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I do wish you the best. My son is also dx'd with Bi-Polar. You should be calling his school to set up an IEP to discuss this. Your child is entitled to this and the school alone can offer services you never even dreamed of.
My son still has crashes due to his Bi-Polar. But I no longer think he is being a jerk. I realize that is part of Bi-Polar, along with the mood swings. Once he turned 18 he discontinued taking his meds. He is an adult now so he has that choice. The episodes have gotten worse, but again, his decision. I can only hope at some point in his life, he will realize that the medications do help with symptoms. Until then, we just love who he has become as an adult. GOD Bless.
Cheryle
***My child was ABUSED & TORTURED at Bethel Boys Academy, Lucedale, MS. (owned/operated Fountain family), aka Eagle Point Christian Academy, now known as Pine View Academy (Fountain family still plays a roll in it)
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
On the wall sits a large whiteboard, divided by marker into two halves. One is marked "Fornits", the other "Programmies". The Fornits side is cluttered with little tally marks- the Programmies side is completely blank. The Milk Gargling Death Penalty walks up to the whiteboard, takes a marker off the ledge and pops the cap off, manages to fit yet another tally mark on the Fornits side, snaps the cap back on and puts it down on the ledge, and walks off, nodding solemnly.
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How dare you interfere with my work! How DARE you talk this woman out of sending her child to an institution I refer to!
I'll get you for this. I'll SUE YOU ALL!!
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SLAPP.
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
YEEEE HAW... that's the first time i've ever thought that expression truly appropriate. Thank you for listening.
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
YEEEE HAW... that's the first time i've ever thought that expression truly appropriate. Thank you for listening.
Terry: You do realize that another doctor can find yet another psychiatric lable for your son. Beware of doctors lacking objective methods of testing.
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
Absolute best of luck with your child. I cannot tell you how much good it does my heart to know that.
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My son was diagnosed by a psychiatrist yesterday as having bipolar disorder. We'll be keeping him close to home, keep him enrolled in his drug / recovery peer group (he likes the people), in treatment with his psych, and might change schools at semester break going to a 'sober school', if we can get in! We cxld the appt with the educational consultant (you'll be happy to know).
Wish us well. Thanks again for sharing your POV's.
Good luck with your son. I think you have made the right decision. Things have a way of working themselves out most of the time. Being there for him is very important. If things don't work out, atleast you can say I gave it my all. Best of luck!