Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Che Gookin on September 29, 2011, 08:49:47 AM
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That's right folks, the Polish Army (aka Federal Gubbermint) is gonna be charging the Cherman tanks on their horses sabers a swinging. With the coming of the HR 911 we should all brace ourselves for a massive orgy of forum masturbation regarding the merits of this heaping pile of shit legislation that fails to pick up on the complete obvious.
1) Abuse happens in licensed programs... It's happening right now..
2) The Feds aren't gonna be fucking bothering with this shit. They'll farm it out to the states like they do everything else that has to do with a local business.
I mean really, is anyone here daft enough to believe the Federal government is going send out the FBI in some massive wave of LEO destruction?
I suspect they'll pick off a few of the more odious and go right back to ignoring it. I have the historical perspective on my side in support of this. Anyone remember the SEED? That fucker was started by the Federal government and took forever to get rid of it. Once they did get rid of it.. it ushered in something I tend to believe is worst, Straight.
3) The entire fucking bill is some hot bag of wind that from my point of view has so much weasel room I'm betting Tranquility Bay could open up in Spanky Miller's office and there wouldn't be shit he could do about it.
4) I want to make a betting pool on two items:
A) Who can name the first program who will get zapped by this Spanky McFucknut Miller's websites for programs and go change their name to avoid having a Feddie gov website saying they suck shit?
B) Who wants names the first program to put a notice on their website that says Spanky McFucknut Miller endorses their shit due to his Short Bus License?
I'm a skeptical bastard. I saw how it played out for the civil right movement in Chicago. Yeah the same place that still has a huge fucking ghetto that traps thousands of Black African Americans in a vicious cycle of poverty.
Yep that Chicago.
It's one thing to pass laws, it is entirely another thing to enforce them. What I want to know is just how Spanky McFucknuts Miller's bill is going to actually do and how it is actually some incremental step in the right direction.
I keep hearing about this incremental improvement. But I've yet to hear exactly how it is going to be an incremental improvement.
Personally I'd rather see a license program set up for program staff that has a certain amount of state provided training and regulation built into it than HR 911 in its current version. A license program for staff that is a federal database, but then I believe the same database should be set up for doctors, nurses, and just about anyone else remotely involved with healthcare.
Though truthfully this is me, I'd rather see a B-52 lining up on the nearest Aspen program for an Arc Light Strike, but I'll settle for what I can get.
Lose your ticket in one state to practice, that shit should follow you.
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You know what really scares me about HR911? Is the idea that this further legitimizes programs. You see Goonster... I'm torn about this. I could well voice my opinion about the federalizing of a database for staff member licenses... or shut up and hope to hell and back they all grow balls and work on abolition.
This sort of reminds me of the old Dredd Vs. Scott decision of separate but equal. Our own SCOTUS legitimizing racism and our own government institutionalizing it. At heart I'm an abolitionist. I do not want to see programs given overt legitimacy under HR 911.
What also scares me are the statements being made by CAFETY. Now before any of you cappity lovers get your nut hairs in a knot I'm not bashing them... well yet. Give me a bit, you know how I get worked up. But what really scares me about the CAFETY statements are the claims that they want programs being seen as Title IX organizations. I'm not sure of the entire quote, I'd have to get on facebook to get it all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX)
So what they are aiming for is these places to be seen as providers of educational services? That's all I'm getting out of it. How in the hell does this help abolish programs?
Goonster, I'm not opposed to calling up Spanky McFucknut Miller's office. I just want to know how this is going to help before I call. I want to know how this is going to drive programs out of business. Because as far as I can tell there are child abuse laws in each and every state of the land. There are laws against murder as well in each and every state. Almost every single state has a child abuse hotline and requires programs to allow access to them.
So just how is HR 911 going to help?
Does it bring something new to the table in the form of youth rights? Maybe a little nugget in the form of due process?
MAYBE a little towards abolishing stage systems and requiring actual treatment programs being the basis for treatment?
So I'll call.. if I can get a voip card for my cellphone coz I live abroad and I feel that all of this HR 911 bollocks is going to be a driving force for the abolition of programs.
Because really, I'm not fucking content with 40 acres and a mule.
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Agreed, HR 911 Doesn't go far enough,or have any real teeth.Not like we would want. But I know this is too little,too late.But it's a start.Better it passes than to leave things as they have been. Another chance for someone,somewhere to blow a whistle. It at least draws attention to the problem.
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http://www.petitiononline.com/hr911/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/hr911/petition.html)
Sign it
I did..........
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You want brainwashing to be illegal? As of now,it's not even legaly recognized to exist.I know,real change never comes fast enough.
I love the leader
I love the leader
I love the leader
OOHHMMM...............
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http://http://newsok.com/dhs-commissioners-ignored-suit-audit-calling-for-reform/article/3603165#ixzz1XhSF6Fe2
I sure do hope this HR911 business doesn't perpetuate something like this on a larger scale. This is the State DHS of Oklahoma more or less saying, "LOL, wut?" to the entire Federal government over kids dying in Oklahoma's foster care system.
Again, I see what you said there none-ya, it's too little too late. How is HR 911 going to even be a little help towards abolishing programs?
Abolitionist, my ideological point of view here, I'm not going to sit up on the facebook group listening to the echo chamber bouncing around repeated calls for supporting this shitpile no matter what. I tend to believe we don't need this bill if it is the best we can do. As Mark Levine said, "It's a good bill!"
No it isn't.
I'll tell you what I really want. Is people to start critically looking this thing over and demanding answers. The best I've gotten is vague responses and cliches from the usual pundits. I've posted my comments on what I'd like to see, didn't even get into the part where I all I really want is a B-52 strike and some flaming torches on program owner's homes, it was practically reasonable for the likes of me.
Sad part is.. all of these changes to HR 911 are ones Spanky Mcfucknut Miller has heard before. We did this once before, people emailing, calling, and so forth. Didn't do fuck all much good back in 2008 now did it? So why the hell do people think Spanky is going to give a rat's behind this time?
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Che wrote;
"all I really want is a B-52 strike and some flaming torches on program owner's homes"
Good luck with that.
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What I want and what I can realistically expect to get are two entirely different things.
Can you educate me on how HR 911 will help even a little bit? What specifically will it do to help kids in programs or help to abolish programs over the long run?
And there is always tping program owner's houses if I can't get the air force on them.
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I believe this is the whole bill. I'm gonna' read it. we all should. Then we can trash it or praise it. Only with more fact than emotion.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111h ... 911rfs.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr911rfs/pdf/BILLS-111hr911rfs.pdf)
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I've read it twice and I'm still confused. Like I said, overall it seems as if it is a push in the wrong direction towards entrenching programs into a bureaucratic niche. Compounding this with massively acute wishful thinking that the Federal government is going to directly intervene.
It's a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
The feds don't work that way, they just require compliance at the state level and bitch at the state governments about it.
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It should be up to the state to report, and the feds to enforce. There is a use for guantanamo (spell?).
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Your right Che, the Bill doesn't have any balls. Most steers don't have balls either when they are slaughtered but they still provide substance. This bill will provide a platform to build on with amendments. If it is passed and enacted then that action alone lends credibility maybe a little but everything has to begin some where.
Before we paste this bill as a "has been" lets see it get passed first, then lets decide if it can generate momentum.
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It's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
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Can you be a bit more specific? Your position seems speculative, though to be fair mine does as well. Even the original civil rights act, which was pretty pissweak and not a credit to Eisenhower, was clearly a platform for civil rights.
How does HR 911 act as a platform for youth and the abolition of programs?
Hell I'm toning my intemperate words down a fair bit. I just want people to explain this to me.
You see ever since the ripe old days of 2008 or so I've seen the same statements over and over without any real justification or clarification for them. The entire HR 911 scene seems like one great big echo chamber that moans, "SHUT UP Che, don't rock the boat.. SETTLE for what we can get.."
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I was a bit vague. I am at work still, so I probably should not of tackled this now. I will be getting out of here soon. I will elaborate on my ideas later.
Thanks Che for this thread. I knew fornits could also be serious.
Hey Dragon long time no see. My fault.
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Don't get your hopes up too much, it is now my mission to rape and defile your aspirations for a serious fornits, but only after you explain yourself.
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Dragonfly,
Sparky McFucknuts Miller has heard this all before. He knows our concerns, they were extremely loudly versed in 2008. Yet despite them he's pushed ahead, he's put on a show hearing of hand picked survivors and "experts", and had the GAO draw up a report saying as much.
Not that I mind the GAO report, that's about the only good thing to come out of all of this imo.
Like I said, I'm happy to call, but I want to know what I'm calling in support of first. If it is to oppose it, there really is no point in calling.
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I can give them all the perspective they need. All I need is 1 week, a remote location, and a waiver saying I can terrorize them all I want in a highly program like matter.
Afterwards they'll be going John Brown all all their program asses.
I'll probably have to go into hiding as well, but it is worth the price.
I'll consider your points about calling in. What I may do is finish rebuilding a few things I once tore down and send in something on official letterhead. I'm not a huge fan of the telephone for this sort of thing as it is harder to ignore something in writing. If.. no.. when I send something I'll post it for you.
You have any specific comments you think I need to make about brainwashing? Shoot me some links and I'll include them.
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dragonfly wrote;
"Change comes slow, but there is no one change within the babylon system that is going to hit home..."
Amen to that.
And just the fact that no programs would want this bill to pass,is enough to endorse it. No it's not the final soloution you are looking for,But if not for this bill,then what other? Most people in America are not even aware of this problem.They're too worried about Obama-care,the economy,or the mexicans to worry about a bunch of "druggie" kids.This is after all the first time any bill has brotched the TTI at all. I know some people want the Millers,the Semblers ect.. and their henchmen to all die in a firey bus wreck,but congress is not going to provide you with that. "Fourty acers and a mule"is better than being put back on the front row.
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And if we're all not confused enough,I think this is the budget for hr 911 911.http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10012/hr911.pdf (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10012/hr911.pdf)
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We are dealing with a lunatic population of white men, rich white men in suits, who believe in America. You can't mix sense with crazy.
So. . . Successful white guys who dress well and believe all men are created equal, and entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are crazy?
the fact that no programs would want this bill to pass,is enough to endorse it. No it's not the final soloution you are looking for,But if not for this bill,then what other? Most people in America are not even aware of this problem.They're too worried about Obama-care,the economy,or the mexicans to worry about a bunch of "druggie" kids.This is after all the first time any bill has brotched the TTI at all. I know some people want the Millers,the Semblers ect.. and their henchmen to all die in a firey bus wreck,but congress is not going to provide you with that. "Fourty acers and a mule"is better than being put back on the front row.
Agreed. Quit right.
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Did anybody read that budget? The very first paragraph has some crazy math.
Estemated cost to implement bill;
$250 million per year for years 2010-2014 (5years)
Estimating the cost to tax oayers $786 million.
Can anybody do simple math?
5x250 million = 1.25 billion
1.25 billion - 786 million = 464 million.
Maybe I'm not reading it right. But that's quite a discrepancy.
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Accountant in training here.
Appropriation (determine what room we have for costs, I'm guessing) - 5 x 250 million = 1.25 billion
Cost (what we actually figure it will cost) - 786 million
Margin of Safety (Breathing room) - 464 million
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Corruption and bribe money? I guess whenever you move a billion dollars, some pretty big crumbs fall off. I guess they have to make it where they can. There is no anti program lobby on capitol hill handing out checks.
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Oh wait, misread it.
That 464 million dollars is for other programs that are already in action.
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God damn, that budget changed. Started out as 50 million a few years ago.
Now I know I have nothing to worry about, ain't a shot in hell for that legislation with that price tag attached to it.
Whew... saves me having to give too much of a shit.
:notworthy:
Thanks Spanky!
And maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems like there is a great big pile of wiggle room in this bill for grants to Advocaidiot groups? If it does it explains why the usual suspects are so hot to support this given the potential for being able to line up actual salaries and flying about on the government tit.
Not sure I like the idea of the usual suspects getting government money to go fight evil given their past records of bad judgement calls and attempting to meet halfway with the industry in the name of working with "Good" ... fap fap.. Programs.
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So many factors...so many things could change before the bill goes in front of the House or the Senate. Part of me thinks it is premature to draw conclusions about this legislation....Nevertheless, another part of me thinks that it is vital to dissect this old bill and be prepared so that we don't have a reinactment of last time.
One thing I think is important to mention is the fact that due to the bill being generated an investigation was conducted resulting in the legitimacy of the troubled teen phenomena. In essence, the government recognized and brought forth proof that this issue is in fact real. This has been an effective tool in convincing parents as well as the public at large that this issue is real and our experiences aren't some delusion.
but, yes Che, I absolutely see what you are saying, you are speaking realistically. I think it might be another thwarted attempt to regulate this industry that may not be very effective even if it is passed. But, this is the way the laws are in this country and if this is our best shot, then we must take it. I do not see any of this resulting in a complete "fix" but to continue the fight is a great way to raise awareness.
Bottom line, the bill needs some serious amending but I think it could be a huge step in the right direction.
I am choosing to be optimistic rather than realistic.
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Tony, I'm gonna make a bet with you.
It'll cost you nothing. In fact, its only going to cost me no matter whether I win or lose.
If I win, I pay 50 dollars, If I lose I pay 100 dollars to the charity of my choice. I say my choice because I have a few favorite that I've looked into and have seen the good work they do. I donate money to a few groups here in Asia, about time I opened up my wallet again anyway.
I bet that not only will this bill be bumrushed into congress it's going to be bumrushed more or less intact as it was. From what I'm gathering the window of opportunity to make changes is rather small.
So let's say 25 percent change of the original legislation. I'll let you be the judge of it as well.
There is not bet on if it passes or not. 250 million or whatever millions of dollars ensures it won't be passed. As soon as the Republicans latch onto this they'll go into a frenzy. There isn't a democrat out there that will go out on life or limb for this legislation when they are staring down the twin barrels of a pissed off voting public shotgun.
To be honest, I object to the idea of throwing a huge wad of money at the problem. It seems to me that the only people standing to benefit are Advocaidiots and lawyers. Both of which I think are parasites. Do I really want a bunch of barely trained Matlock Wannabe advocaidiots running around representing kids in programs? The only reason the CASA program works, Court Appointed Special Advocate, is because the Advocates belong to a seasoned organization that provides support and training.
BOTH of which are massively lacking in the the current advocate groups. I like most of you survivor types, there are a few I really do think are morons, but over all most survivors of the older generation have struck me as pretty solid people. I like most of you all, I really do, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of having survivors out policing programs. I'd personally rather have trained law enforcement officials doing that. At least they can shoot people and get away with it.
Survivors as advocates for kids on the other hands makes sense to me. But that's a function already provided by a current organization, aka CASA. Has anyone gotten with CASA and popped the question about a possible expansion into this market?
Of course not, because they won't do it. Why would they when rarely ever do any of these kids ever see the light of day in a court room.
Now if this bill was about pushing the Washington state law that allows 13 year olds to say fuck off to unwanted therapy I'd be jumping up and down and wetting my pants with joy. At least that wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything beyond having the electric bill at congress run up during all the speeches for and against it.
It's a powerful law that MOST definitely without question is in the right direction. It forces the situation from the home and program and into the courts. The same courts where CASA and thousands of pro-bono lawyers. Other organizations are out there as well. Loads of them. All sort of them that are looking for volunteers.
Here is a question for you specifically Tony. I hear a fair bit about this Levine fellow. Has anyone ever asked him what he thinks about this Washington State law?
Why are we being so set on an unproven piece of legislation when we've already seen the baaawing from parents in Washington State?
My take on the comparison of HR 911 and the WA. STate law, HR 911 provides too many questions regarding it's effectiveness and a huge amount of speculation as to whether it'll make things worst or not and the other already has a track record of protecting the rights of young men and women.
Sorry, gotta say on a realistic point of view here I think the movement is settling for waaaaaaaaaay too fucking little and hoping for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much out of a few talking head pundits and politicians. All of them who either are badly informed or have alternate agendas. You ever wonder why some of the usual suspect advocaidiots are so hot for this bill?
I have myself, best answer I have... Money.. lots of it.. keeping them in lots of money through government grants.
To do what?
Beats the fuck out of me, I don't see a single advocaidiot organization out there capable of doing much of anything even if they had the money. Not sure why they'd even need money if this was pushed into the courts as well given that there are already numerous experienced organizations out there for us to join with.
HEAL?
Dude... seriously.. do I need to even say anything? I've gotten to the point where I can say Angela's name with out spitting or swearing. I doubt she'd even bother with taking Federal money anyway.
CAFETY?
Hur... lol, right.. I think they mean well, try hard, and have the occasional good idea, but really...
SIA?
Ain't they the folks doing a survivor reunion on the Queen fucking Mary? That's nice of them, I'm sure they'll get a huge turn out.....
:nods:
ISAC..
They went under..
TAUSA..
Don't even know if Barbe Stampe is even still alive. I suspect zombies ate her brains years ago.
FICA..
uhhh.. I think Kathy Moya is a great person, but my impression of FICA has always been that it is Kathy Moya.. and well that's about it.. Just Kathy.
I'd mention the YLF, but that bad boy got shoved down a garbage disposer by yours truly. Not a bad thing either... somethings just need to go away till a better time. Like when I grow up past my current mental age of 13.
Good luck with all of this though. I think maybe I need to go back to not caring for awhile or focusing on other efforts. I've always been a soft one for orphans. Possibly coz I'm one myself. Mebbe it's time for me to spend some more time on that for awhile. This entire HR 911 thing is really pissing me off and I don't want to sit here and watch what is probably going to be a repeat of the last fiasco.
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The organized efforts to inform have not been without numerous challenges - trauma and drama and petty bickering over minor differences - who gets credit, or who is a fuk-tard, excetera. I grant you this has been frustrating and disappointing. But at least they are doing Something real - something requiring time and effort; a lot of emotional pain for only very occasional glimpses of victory. I feel a bit vexed that you so casually dismiss all this - that you are so disrespectful of these people who in some cases have sacrificed at heroic levels. And even if the victories are few, they are very real - and there is no reason to demean effort to see greater victories yet.
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Che,
It is difficult to speak about all of this because I have differing pewrspectives in my own mind about this bill and the future of it.
I will say that I think all of your concerns are valid. Most of which I have pondered at one time.
I have not asked Mwrk Levine about the Washington law. He is a busy person and I doubt any good would come from asking him about it. I think he is sold on the idea that federal regulation is needed. Of course, I am assuming, I can't read minds.
Yes, I agree the bill in its current text would never pass due to the expenditures included. I am hoping to see that number diminish greatly. Even then, John Boehner (Big KHK supporter) and the Republicans who voted against this bill in the house last time probably won't let it through unless some of those politicos are voted out.
At any rate, I am a spectator and I will hope for the best. I look at it like this: we gotta root for our team even though they might suck this year. Even if the bill doesn't pass, we still win in some ways in legitimizing the issue in the top echelons of our government. This bill puts the issue squarely in their face and we are recognized.....the kids being tortured presently are recognized and acknowledged.
I am like you in that I am impatient. And your frustrration is shared by many. The same fiasco may happen again.....but it may be entirely different. It's not like I have to put a lot of time into it.
I don't understand the laws very well and I am sure that no law is worth it's weight in salt if there is no enforcement. so I do think that we already have law enforcement and the FBI..... I don't see why we need appropriations in the bill at all. Let's just change how programs are classified ( Ummm.... the Bush white house did this by changing language in the law, eg. enemy combatants, insurgents, detainees, instead of POW's) and voila, you can now walk into programs and investigate 3rd party complaints of abuse and fine them, investigate or close them.
And require all programs that work with children put the name of their program on a list so we know how many of them that there are.....with a hefty fine and closure if you fail to go on the list.
So, I guess I think the bill needs to be overhauled in a way, but that's only because I am not intelligent enough to see what future ramifications the current bill would produce or how (or if) it will be enforced.
Programs do not want this bill to pass....so they must know something I don't. Due to that, I am for it.
Feel free to give your money to whomever you like. I don't gamble, I receive no enjoyment from it. Peace-out.
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The organized efforts to inform have not been without numerous challenges - trauma and drama and petty bickering over minor differences - who gets credit, or who is a fuk-tard, excetera. I grant you this has been frustrating and disappointing. But at least they are doing Something real - something requiring time and effort; a lot of emotional pain for only very occasional glimpses of victory. I feel a bit vexed that you so casually dismiss all this - that you are so disrespectful of these people who in some cases have sacrificed at heroic levels. And even if the victories are few, they are very real - and there is no reason to demean effort to see greater victories yet.
Definitely heroic, in the tragic classical Greek sense.
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Even if the bill doesn't pass, we still win in some ways in legitimizing the issue in the top echelons of our government. This bill puts the issue squarely in their face and we are recognized.....the kids being tortured presently are recognized and acknowledged.
This we can agree on. I've always felt this is the only real potential gain. Air time on cable news and recognition. I just wish people were on track for the aftermath of this that will be coming along when this bill gets binned. Perhaps this would be the time to strike when the iron is hot. Unlike last time where everyone went home and played with their toys I'm hoping to see a real effort put into place for pushing a federal WA state like law.
I think it is awesome you are being optimistic on this Tony. Not everyone should be like me... cynical and joyously offensive, but bear with me on the notion that the defeat of this bill opens the window for the ushering in of something better.
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http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml (http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml)
This is what I'm talking about regarding a youth bill of rights, something in this tone.
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http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml (http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml)
This is what I'm talking about regarding a youth bill of rights, something in this tone.
:tup:
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This quote from one of my favorite novels comes to mind, concerning all of this:
"But to tear down a factory or to revolt against a government or to avoid repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible. The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government. There’s so much talk about the system. And so little understanding."
(italics added by me)
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Che, I like the link. I agree with the sentiment. Now if you could widdle that into a bill utilizing our already existing law enforcement with only a small increase in funding, I'd be all for it. We think about this HR 911 thing more than you realize. The biggest difference is between our attitudes ( how we choose to approach and think about this legislation)and not our examination of the circumstances.
Froderik, I agree with the statement about leaving old thought systems and people in place. That is why I must side with those who don't want to improve programs, but those who want to close them. Protesting PFC taught me most of what I need to know about negotiating with program owners. If any programs are to exist, I believe it should be with the right people with good intentions and proper regulation. An open door policy should not be an option, but it should be the law when dealing with teens and treatment.
I suppose the Nazi's are a good example of why there must be a regime change when it comes to troubled teen programs. You don't regulate the nazi's and hope the prison camps are regulated by peer review or self regulation. You take the nazi's to Nuremberg trials and hope they don't make it to South America.
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Why is this bill being rushed? No one is going to change their vote and rushing it prevents people from lobbying the congresspeople who voted against it the first time
It seems like a waste of time and money.
Where does the money go?
I am hoping the money will be taken out of the bill. I agree with Che, it doesn't stand a chance if it is the least bit expensive.
As for being rushed, I am not sure what you mean. It is only being reintroduced, so I've heard.
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The vote http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2009/h/72 (http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2009/h/72)
Seems republicans hate protecting kids in programs Fuckers
Funny thing, I was a registered Republican (I have no idea why because I didn't follow politics) all my life but after I found that almost all politicians supporting these programs were Republicans, well I just had to go and register as an Independent.
I think the bill could still pass in the house but I am unsure if the speaker of the house can change that. You see, Boehner supported KHK, the program I was successfully brainwashed in. And now he is in a position to impede any anti-child abuse bill. BTW, he voted against HR 911 last time.
The good news is that we have a decent Senate and if the senate help committee is made up of the right people we might have a chance at it passing in there. Of course, I have heard that it might have been a better idea to have a senator sponsor the bill and work it from the other direction. But i don't have enough smarts to know if that would be any better.
101 Republicans in the house voted against it last time, one dumbass Dem. from Idaho (HR 911). I would assume it will be higher this time but it still could squeak by. If the Boehner thing doesn't pose a problem.
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Off the subject....just watched a movie tonight circa 1983 about a secret women's prison. Besides the obvious steel bars and dark environment, the women were saying the same things we would say in the program, like I didn't know places like this could exist...and you don't get visits so you can't complain....and you don't get out of here so get used to it.
It got me thinking that no matter what bill or law is passed, somewhere there will always be private prisons for kids.
Well, in the end, just like in most 80's flicks, some great ninja dude came in and saved everyone even though they had guns and he had an incredibly long leg that could knock the guns out of their hands at light speed.
But no ninja ever came to KHK. And god did I wish someone would blow the place up...I didn't care if I was in it at the time.....just something to end the constant torment. I was locked up when I got older, and that state of mind is a lot different than a naive 14 year old. Jail was a cakewalk comparably, albeit boring.
Maybe HR 911 should be titled HR Ninja and have a provision for a tough guy with a lightening quick, extra long leg to enforce the federal law.
A Very insightful individual recently wrote, "Being right isn't always enough - because sometimes you have to fight for it. There's no point in being right if you don't fight for it."
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Ok, one more post and then it's off to bed for me.
Yes a big story like that would be good. But there have been many big stories pertaining to programs and abuse. Just recently, the 2 day Mark Levine radio shows, CNN report: Ungodly Discipline, and the 20/20 report on abuse in IFB churches.
The two judges in PA that got 28 and 17.5 years....hopefully more indictments to come.
But my point is, there have been a lot more reports on this issue than in the past. And I welcome any other big story that draws attention to this. It is absolutely newsworthy nationally if not internationally.
How about a polygraph duel between survivors and program directors? Let's put that dare on the table. I'll do it. if it's good enough for Maury Povich, it's good enough for me. Great publicity stunt to draw attention. (:
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wdtony wrote;
"How about a polygraph duel between survivors and program directors? Let's put that dare on the table. I'll do it. if it's good enough for Maury Povich, it's good enough for me."
A polygraph machine and a boxing ring!
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First of all, passage of H.R. 911 in any form is a serious uphill battle in this Congress. Miller can introduce his bill, without any threat of it actually being passed Tom Harkin in the Senate can introduce his version, and may have hearings in the Senate sometime next year. More publicity gets generated, programs are put on notice, and the major concern that an actual bill gets passed where people in the general public feel like the problem has been solved never happens.
In the best political climate for passage of such legislation, the best we can hope for is something that will make it impossible for clearly abusive programs or abusive providers to move from state to state or reopen under a new name.
For example, a bill that could keep Salem Children's Home closed, but do absolutely nothing to a Cross Creek Academy.
Illinois is apparently a state that has no regulation on programs that are entirely private pay. Salem Children's Home is the type of program that would be required to be licensed and inspected, that currently isn't.
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I wish I wouldn't have gotten involed is this.It was easier before. HR911=good. TTI= bad.Right? Read that godamn bill (I guess just like any other bill) You have to be a lawyer to make sense of it.
So,bill passes - YAY- the good guys are happy!
So,bill fails - YAY- Che is happy!
it's a win,win...........
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Just some other thoughts about the reality of licensing. I say this as someone who works for a licensing agency and is involved in program oversight, but not the actual renewal of licenses (i.e. we take complaints and investigate and involve the certification team if need be, but are not the ones doing annual inspections). And has seen first hand the practice of our own agency as well as other agencies in the state.
First of all, the relationship between provider and licensor tends to be cozy. Not cozy in an illegal, money under the table kind of way, but in the going to the same church, kids go to the same school kind of way. Licensors have more of a personal relationship with the providers than with the kids, so in the event of a he said, she said situation, who do you think they're going to be inclined to side with?
Second, and this is particularly true with child welfare agencies, but similar dynamics play out with the mental health and juvenile justice systems. Licensing agencies rely on the capacity that bad programs provide. For instance we have a private psychiatric hospital in a NYC suburb that has been under threat to be closed for at least the last 4 years, that seems to take almost exclusively foster care kids from NYC. How is that? Our foster care system can't find enough foster parents to take in kids who have special needs, so they need the hospital beds to keep them off the street or out of the shelters. As long as they're in the hospital they're not the agency's problem. The hospital does just enough to stay open, because an entire system has made the decision that it's better that a youth receive substandard care in a psychiatric hospital, then be left in the community to their own devices. If something bad happens in the hospital, it'll be the hospital that gets blamed. If something happens in the community, the foster care agency has liability.
Third, keeping in the foster care realm. I've come to the conclusion that there's a subconscious calculus that plays in the mind of child protective workers - is this a child that's more likely to be killed or harder to place. Meaning lots of minority infants who have parents who aren't necessarily abusive, but there are serious concerns they may neglect their child to death, who they feel like they can find foster placements for get placed, but teenagers getting beaten by their parents don't. Assuming they meet that threshold, as the case worker is my liability higher if I remove the child or if I keep the child in the home. Translation - (Rich white abusive parents sue when their child is taken away by CPS, poor black parents don't). The threat of a lawsuit is enough to outweigh the worry of a front page story in the New York Post.
The MBA case perfectly illustrates these realities. DHS took action that they probably wouldn't have in the first place because they didn't have any of their own youth in Mount Bachelor. But when Aspen retaliated with a lawsuit, and when Aspen got parents to threaten to sue DHS as well, DHS got cold feet and settled.
Any state licensing regime will have those realities. And there are in some cases ways to get around the lack of licensing by going to the local Protection and Advocacy organization in your state.
The solution is to have a credible enough threat so that the licensing agencies fear the exposure that you can bring to bear on them over the exposure from the programs. But to do that you have to be credible, believable, and organized, and have a very good answer for when those pro-program parents show up with their "success stories".
In my next installment I will provide specific program examples and how to structure your advocacy to be most effective.
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Froderik, I agree with the statement about leaving old thought systems and people in place. That is why I must side with those who don't want to improve programs, but those who want to close them. Protesting PFC taught me most of what I need to know about negotiating with program owners. If any programs are to exist, I believe it should be with the right people with good intentions and proper regulation. An open door policy should not be an option, but it should be the law when dealing with teens and treatment.
I suppose the Nazi's are a good example of why there must be a regime change when it comes to troubled teen programs. You don't regulate the nazi's and hope the prison camps are regulated by peer review or self regulation. You take the nazi's to Nuremberg trials and hope they don't make it to South America.
Well said. That's exactly what I was getting at with that quote.
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How they make laws.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKhXxvT9iak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKhXxvT9iak)
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I think the industry needs a big story to draw attention. I think that's why the Jared Laughner story is being played down. I believe the woman he shot supported the program he was in
We speculated here that he was some kind of Manchurian candidate, but that's a little out there. I think they abused him in the program he was in and it got him to crack
Of course that's just an opinion, but the fact they won't even tell us what program he was in lends it creedance
::OMG:: ::OMG:: Holy shit dude...that right there is HUGE...
Perhaps one of the media folks (like maybe you, Mark Levine) would be interested in opening THAT can of worms for the American people to fathom..??
:nods: :nods: :nods: :nods: :rocker: :rocker:
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I think the industry needs a big story to draw attention. I think that's why the Jared Laughner story is being played down. I believe the woman he shot supported the program he was in
We speculated here that he was some kind of Manchurian candidate, but that's a little out there. I think they abused him in the program he was in and it got him to crack
Of course that's just an opinion, but the fact they won't even tell us what program he was in lends it creedance
::OMG:: ::OMG:: Holy shit dude...that right there is HUGE...
Perhaps one of the media folks (like maybe you, Mark Levine) would be interested in opening THAT can of worms for the American people to fathom..??
:nods: :nods: :nods: :nods: :rocker: :rocker:
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Danny, knock it off.
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Danny, knock it off.
Listen let me tell you something clown, I have only just started. if you want things to knock off then get honest, get fair and knock off the enabling and get Wayne (or whoever he is) off this site. He is not a survivor and never has been.
So I tell you and others get honest do your investigation of Wayne or as far as I go STFU.
Listen here Gozo, there are many clowns here who can trash the forum as much as we please. Unless there are no issues to discuss, we can trash it all we want. It would seem that there are more important issues to discuss than whether or not you committed something specific or not. We are not here to finagle. The pettiness has got to end - either bring out the axe or bury the hatchet.
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Danny calm down.
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Just some other thoughts about the reality of licensing. I say this as someone who works for a licensing agency and is involved in program oversight, but not the actual renewal of licenses (i.e. we take complaints and investigate and involve the certification team if need be, but are not the ones doing annual inspections). And has seen first hand the practice of our own agency as well as other agencies in the state.
First of all, the relationship between provider and licensor tends to be cozy. Not cozy in an illegal, money under the table kind of way, but in the going to the same church, kids go to the same school kind of way. Licensors have more of a personal relationship with the providers than with the kids, so in the event of a he said, she said situation, who do you think they're going to be inclined to side with?
Second, and this is particularly true with child welfare agencies, but similar dynamics play out with the mental health and juvenile justice systems. Licensing agencies rely on the capacity that bad programs provide. For instance we have a private psychiatric hospital in a NYC suburb that has been under threat to be closed for at least the last 4 years, that seems to take almost exclusively foster care kids from NYC. How is that? Our foster care system can't find enough foster parents to take in kids who have special needs, so they need the hospital beds to keep them off the street or out of the shelters. As long as they're in the hospital they're not the agency's problem. The hospital does just enough to stay open, because an entire system has made the decision that it's better that a youth receive substandard care in a psychiatric hospital, then be left in the community to their own devices. If something bad happens in the hospital, it'll be the hospital that gets blamed. If something happens in the community, the foster care agency has liability.
Third, keeping in the foster care realm. I've come to the conclusion that there's a subconscious calculus that plays in the mind of child protective workers - is this a child that's more likely to be killed or harder to place. Meaning lots of minority infants who have parents who aren't necessarily abusive, but there are serious concerns they may neglect their child to death, who they feel like they can find foster placements for get placed, but teenagers getting beaten by their parents don't. Assuming they meet that threshold, as the case worker is my liability higher if I remove the child or if I keep the child in the home. Translation - (Rich white abusive parents sue when their child is taken away by CPS, poor black parents don't). The threat of a lawsuit is enough to outweigh the worry of a front page story in the New York Post.
The MBA case perfectly illustrates these realities. DHS took action that they probably wouldn't have in the first place because they didn't have any of their own youth in Mount Bachelor. But when Aspen retaliated with a lawsuit, and when Aspen got parents to threaten to sue DHS as well, DHS got cold feet and settled.
Any state licensing regime will have those realities. And there are in some cases ways to get around the lack of licensing by going to the local Protection and Advocacy organization in your state.
The solution is to have a credible enough threat so that the licensing agencies fear the exposure that you can bring to bear on them over the exposure from the programs. But to do that you have to be credible, believable, and organized, and have a very good answer for when those pro-program parents show up with their "success stories".
In my next installment I will provide specific program examples and how to structure your advocacy to be most effective.
Which given time the same chilling effect will take root with the new HR 911 efforts. Oklahoma and their lack of a give a damn over getting sued by the federal government for not taking the deaths of youths in Foster care seriously is an excellent example.
I see what your saying Brian, I think you make some valid points and have some great ideas, I just think you are going about it entirely backwards.
I'd rather empower youth to be able to defend themselves versus empowering yet another federal and state agency that overtime will fall to the same sense of complacency.
Youth will always be square in the spotlight of some sort of program in some form. As a person working for a licensing agency I'm surprised you haven't acknowledged the shuffling and morphing of programs right in front of you. Changing demands of the consumer and changing regulation will prompt changes of what is offered.
There is too much money for it not to happen.
And None-ya..
I'm only going to be happy if HR 911 opens the door to something more useful that works to directly serve the needs of kids.
If it's another case of the Republicans saying, "lol, no" and we all go home with our own toys again like we did next time and wait for Pappa Miller to introduce another HR 911 clone I'm going to be pretty damn depressed about it all, LIKE I was last time it happened.
In my ideal vision:
HR 911 goes crashing down in flames.. but opens the door to people getting serious about fighting for a Youth Bill of Rights.
Actually with the way Brian describes it I'm semi-convinced that HR 911 does have limited short term utility of bringing programs like Salem under some sort of scrutiny even If I'm not convinced it'll have a lasting effect. So even with HR 911 passing I hope it opens to the door for people getting serious about a Youth Bill of Rights.
So that's my ideal vision.. NO Matter what outcome we get serious about pushing a Youth Bill of Rights. I just don't have enough faith in the government to believe that HR 911 is an answer. I do have faith that children can make their own minds up about where they go to school and what sort of medical treatment they are getting.
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And Danny have some respect..
You'll notice I'm one of the few who hasn't commented on these Rape allegations... I'm not siding with anyone of you either, but I'm going to need way more than a he said she said on something like this.
Though I'd personally rather see something like this end up in court. Even if criminal charges can't be brought about.. Civil court is an option.
So yeah.. please take this elsewhere. Like back to PM or something.
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And Danny have some respect..
You'll notice I'm one of the few who hasn't commented on these Rape allegations... I'm not siding with anyone of you either, but I'm going to need way more than a he said she said on something like this.
Though I'd personally rather see something like this end up in court. Even if criminal charges can't be brought about.. Civil court is an option.
So yeah.. please take this elsewhere. Like back to PM or something.
Why would you say something like this. Is this really a topic within a survivor community we just bandy around like it is a raffle were talking about.
What!!! Is there to side about, from what he has presented you think for one fucking nano second I raped someone. Really!!!
Is this where we have reduced this site to in regards to me. "Oh I am not taking sides" on a rape.
What the fuck has happened to you people concerning me. Is your denial of your participation in the fights of a year ago that thick within your rationalizing minds.
Does this density in your minds somehow warped your mind into thinking it is OK to fuck with a women who isn't even here to defend herself and say she was raped and abused
by me. When you know this person was important to me. This game of vindictiveness is OK because it is Danny.
I got rid of my posts because it wrong to post in this thread. I like many would love to see HR 911 pass. It is a start.
Che bury the past I have no more with you to quarrel about and really never did. Verbal shrapnel was flying in all directions back then.
This shit Wayne is doing is wrong you know it and everybody else knows it, don't enable it because it is me.
I too am a survivor of 11 years.
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Look retard.. Let me break this down for you very carefully..
Take your fucking pity party for Danny b somewhere else.
I don't give a rusty codfuck about you or Wayne. Both of you are incredibly dramatic people who annoy the fuck out of me. Don't be spamming up my threads with your drama.
I WILL NOT side on these allegations of rape..
Because it's not for me to decide upon who did what on an internet drama of this nature. If there is a case to be made here it can be made in court. If not.. STFU both of you.
I will note I find find a few things very interesting..
The state of Maine has no statute of limitations for abuse for under the age of 16. I'm pretty sure Wayne knows this also.
The other stuff about the situation that I find very interesting comes across as coincidental in the timing and would only serve to strengthen your position.
Which I won't do.
Because I dislike you intensely and I wish you'd fuck off.
NOW please show some respect.. stop spamming up my thread with your drama.
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As for the rest of this discussion it can be held over at TTI.com where Danny has been banned since about the 3rd day the forum opened up for business.
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Thanks for the feedback Che,
In the long run programs will adapt, I think you've started to see that already with a number of Aspen castoffs going after the young adult market, which is even more poorly regulated than youth programs. It just takes money, time, and effort to make those adaptations. So, yeah most of the residential treatment industry is either against H.R. 911 or ambivalent (with AACRC being the one notable supporter - though if you privately polled all of their members probably more than half of them would be against it), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't eventually adapt.
Clearly most of the programs in Utah have successfully adapted to the new regulatory regime. Has the Utah Office of Licensing actually revoked a single program's license? Does anyone actually think that every program in Utah is squeaky clean? So yes, I agree that there are a number of particularly atrocious places that won't be able to adapt to survive, a number of them will.
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Thanks for the feedback Che,
In the long run programs will adapt, I think you've started to see that already with a number of Aspen castoffs going after the young adult market, which is even more poorly regulated than youth programs. It just takes money, time, and effort to make those adaptations. So, yeah most of the residential treatment industry is either against H.R. 911 or ambivalent (with AACRC being the one notable supporter - though if you privately polled all of their members probably more than half of them would be against it), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't eventually adapt.
Clearly most of the programs in Utah have successfully adapted to the new regulatory regime. Has the Utah Office of Licensing actually revoked a single program's license? Does anyone actually think that every program in Utah is squeaky clean? So yes, I agree that there are a number of particularly atrocious places that won't be able to adapt to survive, a number of them will.
This is the sort of thing I wish people like Miller would be told. And remember how long it took for Utah to put Whitmore out of business? Finally it came down to a Nolo contendre plea and the agreement to never work with kids in Utah again to shut that place down, IN UTAH.
They still have 49 other states to throw kids down stairs and put on a shelf.
Like I said, I think you have a good point about the bringing of some sort of oversight to places like Salem House, I just question the long term effectiveness of it. Still... I can't help but hope that in the short term some poor kid in Salem House and programs like it get something out of it.
How do you feel about a Youth Bill of Rights? I don't believe a YBoR will bring down the industry.. it'll still be there, but I do think a YBoR would serve a huge number of kids in a huge range of situations. Given the multi-faceted nature of child abuse and the plethora of situations it rears its ugly head I can't help support the idea of empowering the younger members of our society with the rights to make decisions regarding their schooling and treatment.
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I think that a Federal Youth Bill of Rights is a non-starter. I think our best bet is to try to exert influence on Senator Harkin's office and to work with the Senate to develop an alternative to H.R. 911. NYRA has already done some work in that area. Part of that could be specifying what "reasonable access" actually is, to allay the fears of programs who think it really does mean private phone calls to everybody, and to allay the fears of advocates who think it could mean what it already means in a lot of states - two fifteen semi-monitored calls a week.
The other strategy is to work through the network of Protection and Advocacy agencies that are members of the National Disability Rights Network (i.e. Disability Law Center, Disability Rights Oregon, Commission of Quality of Care and Advocacy for Persons with Disabilities). A simple and elegant change in law would be to extend the jurisdiction that they already have to "mental hygiene" facilities to the "covered programs" in H.R. 911. As of now, they need probable cause to investigate private facilities, but I believe have broader jurisdiction to investigate mental health and developmental disability programs (Kat would know the specifics on that).
As of now, the P & A's are already a resource and have been involved in investigations of Penrith Farms in Washington, Mount Bachelor in Oregon, and the Family Foundation School in New York. I know the offices in Kansas and North Carolina are aware of this issue, but haven't been able to establish probable cause to investigate "parent-choice" facilities in their state.
That might be the next experiment, to see if the Disability Law Center of Utah is up for taking on the Office of Licensing.
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A youth bill of rights? Dream on. Hell in most states juvenilles have no legal rights (of an adult) whatsoever.Here in Fl. a juvenille doesn't even have to be marandised(sp?),or given a phone call when arrested.They won't either until there are lobbyists on capitol hill handing out checks to "save the children."
Good luck with that......
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I think that a Federal Youth Bill of Rights is a non-starter. I think our best bet is to try to exert influence on Senator Harkin's office and to work with the Senate to develop an alternative to H.R. 911. NYRA has already done some work in that area. Part of that could be specifying what "reasonable access" actually is, to allay the fears of programs who think it really does mean private phone calls to everybody, and to allay the fears of advocates who think it could mean what it already means in a lot of states - two fifteen semi-monitored calls a week.
Tell me more about this. I like where you are going. I'd be willing to assist with this sort of project.. particularly if you include restraints into the mix somewhere.
The other strategy is to work through the network of Protection and Advocacy agencies that are members of the National Disability Rights Network (i.e. Disability Law Center, Disability Rights Oregon, Commission of Quality of Care and Advocacy for Persons with Disabilities). A simple and elegant change in law would be to extend the jurisdiction that they already have to "mental hygiene" facilities to the "covered programs" in H.R. 911. As of now, they need probable cause to investigate private facilities, but I believe have broader jurisdiction to investigate mental health and developmental disability programs (Kat would know the specifics on that).
True.. I loathe to create a new federal agency due to the Fed's track record with this sort of thing. TSA anyone? LBJ's Great Society much? Etc? I'd be more inclined to just see an existing agency with some experience in these matters expanded. I still don't have much hopes that it will do much over the long run though.
As of now, the P & A's are already a resource and have been involved in investigations of Penrith Farms in Washington, Mount Bachelor in Oregon, and the Family Foundation School in New York. I know the offices in Kansas and North Carolina are aware of this issue, but haven't been able to establish probable cause to investigate "parent-choice" facilities in their state.
P&A?
That might be the next experiment, to see if the Disability Law Center of Utah is up for taking on the Office of Licensing.
Got my popcorn ready..
I disagree with you though that a YBoR is a nonstarter. It will take a very very very long time to realize something like this though.
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Regarding restraints, H.R. 4247 had more "juice" in the last session, a Senate co-sponsor and a number of organizations including the aformentioned National Disability Rights Network lobbying hard for it. Is there a grand bargained to be reached with Harkin to try to combine the two bills? (look this is all speculation, nothing is actually going to get passed in this Congress)
But I guess regarding lobbying Congress, there's only so much more you can share with Miller's office. I kind of get the sense he has his mind made up. Harkin hasn't drafted legislation yet, and whereas the Republicans threatened to filibuster in the last session because something had already passed the House, there were negotiations a the end of the last session, but no bill. With no way of it actually passing, there might actually be a bill written up this time in the Senate.
P & A stands for Protection and Advocacy.
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I was a bit put out by 4247 not getting passed. I thought it had quite a bit of merit to it. Not sure what you mean by Harkin. Is he some other congresscritter?
It's a good possible compromise though. I wouldn't compromise on one very important issue.
Monitoring of mandatory phone calls. There is no need for the programs to be eavesdropping on people's calls. Kids getting eavesdropped on by programs is probably why a great many kids just shut up and suffer in silence.
Why risk getting in more trouble? They probably were punished once for the abusive events, why risk it again for attempting to, "manipulate" mom and dad?
Nah.. that's one thing I wouldn't give an inch on. Don't let them even have semi-supervised calls. Sure the programmies can dial the number.. but they can piss off with all of that.
Further, no exemptions should be given to wilderness programs. They do have satellite phones and all that are quite affordable.
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I was with Trisha Lynch yesterday and she thinks the same thing
Though I wouldn't completely dismiss the brainwashing theory.
Is there any evidence that he was in a program? Or that he was on psychiatric medication?
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According to the media he was in two drug/alcohol treatment programs, but they won't release the name of the place.
Do you have a link to the media source who suggested that he was in2 programs? That would be a great start, and to find out which programs would be beneficial.
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Dunno if I'd be all that eager to get into the accreditation business. That diverges massively from my desire to abolish programs.
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yeah...I know...can't really imagine giving the thumbs up to any program....I don't think there's any worry about it cominig to that...
Accreditation agencies are paid by programs. No program would pass inspection and the Accred. agency would go belly up due to financial losses.
I do agree that survivors who know about these programs should be a voice in how they are regulated, and a part of any solution. Otherwise it's like having a nearly blind watchdog.
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:bump: