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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 12:19:00 PM

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2005, 12:19:00 PM

Anyone out there go to RMA in 1985- 1987? Curious when those that post ften were  students there.

I don't deny that some things that were said were wrong andcould even be considered  abusive. I guess I just don't feel "scarred" from those days. There were some  gresat things about those years at RMA, but, there were also some "not so great" things.

There were staff there that said things that do haunt me... Caroline  Wolfe being one of those staff that I can't even thins abut without kringing. But there were others who spoke to me with such kindness whose words hold a place in my heart... Mare Dubavich being one og those people.

I agree with most of you that those years at RMA were  not PERFECT or blissful. But neither were the years prior to me going there. I am not sure what would have been worse.... not going to RMA when I did, or living through 34 months of RMA. I don't know. It was what it was. I am not angry about it. I try to remember what was good and forget about what was bad.

What I do like to look back fondly on is the friendships that I had when I was there. I have never had  friends like I did when I was there.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on November 24, 2005, 01:30:00 PM

I was there towards the tail end of your stay. We probably never met. I don't feel scarred either, but I did go through a lot of adjustment difficulties after I graduated. I used to have a lot of stress dreams, and I basically went through deprogramming myself. It messed with my identity for a while, to be sure. But I eventually moved on and grew up.

In the grand scheme of behavior mod schools, CEDU/RMA were among the cushier, no doubt, but there certainly were some unqualified staff. Caroline being one of them. I heard it got crazier in the 90s, but that the program was more coercive when you and I were there. Kids from the 90s and beyond state that it was much easier to resist the programming. Probably because a lot of the structure and strict regime that you and I experienced had lapsed, according to testimony from alumni.

I liked Mare, too. She and I weren't close, but she seemed nice. I don't even remember being in a lot of her raps, except for my very first one. I was shocked when I found out she had passed away. Dan was pretty decent, too, simply for the fact that I associate him with being away from the school, since he ran the wilderness program.

As far as friendships, well, my friendships today are more substantial than anything I had then. Mainly because I was so immature and inexperienced with developing close connections, and the school really didn't help facilitate that understanding. (Although I did have some close friends before I went to RMA.) At RMA, I essentially felt like a freak. Although I certainly bought into the program and tried hard enough. (Maybe too hard. Which was part of my problem.)

I have some good memories, too. Mainly the wilderness expeditions, and Christmas. (As well as the weeks leading up to Christmas, since we didn't have to work, and did Santa's Workshop instead.)

_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 18:45 ]

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on November 28, 2005, 04:58:00 PM

I was at RMA from 85-87.   I suspect that we know each other.

Mare was terrific, and I miss her.

I do not feel 'scarred' from those days, either.   But I do wish that I was not sent to RMA.  I feel that the placement, for me, was not the best fit.   I did not fit in socially, and my 'story' just did not match the consequence of RMA. I do agree with -- It was what it was.

In terms of just remembering the good times from RMA, I find that I remember very little about RMA --  good or bad.

But here's a one-liner for you -- Master Bates.    I do not remember his first name ... maybe Brian.   I used to really enjoy calling him Master Bates -- guess I was a tad immature.

---

The person who posted about trying too hard at RMA -- I think I did the same thing.  I was really looking for place to fit in.   I did my best to fit in at RMA, but I failed.   It took me a long time to realize that not being a part of a group or invited to join a group may not be a reflection on me.

Well, enough yammering, I should get some work done.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on November 28, 2005, 06:36:00 PM

Hmmm...now I am curious.

Of course we knew each other. Everyone "knew" everyone there.

I, too, tried to fit in to a certain point. Even though RMA fought the premise of high school cliques, they were still there. In our soceity, it's inevitable. I like to think that I was friends with many, but not really associated with any real group, other than my peer group.

If you ask anyone that knows me about something that sticks out about ME, it would be my memory. Good or bad. I do have many great memories from those years, but I am still haunted by some. I am not angry about being  sent to RMA, maybe because I was well aware of the alternatives... mine were not that great. I agree that some  kids had better alternatives that were not utilized. I also agree that some kids should never have been sent to a place like RMA. I will also say for every "mean", "hurtful" staff person, there was another that truly cared. I just can't get that angry about it. Maybe I am warped because I am not, I don't know. I read many of these posts and I just don't feel the same way. No, I am not pro-RMA, but "it was what it was". I miss my friends  from those days, I keep in touch with VERY few.

Ok, I am rambling....

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on November 28, 2005, 11:32:00 PM

Well, what I meant was, that you probably graduated before I got there, or graduated shortly after I got there. I know that for me, I don't remember any of the new students who came in close to my graduation. Although I don't remember the names of a lot of the students anyway.

I don't remember Brian Bates. Do you recall which peer group he was in, or when he graduated?

_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 18:45 ]

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 09:17:00 AM

Brian bates [If that was his first name] was a lower level staffer.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 10:01:00 AM

RE: anon post RMA 85-87

In terms of anger at being sent to RMA -- Sure I wish that was not sent there, sometimes I wonder about the person I would have been if I was not sent there, or if my parents picked up the tab [or even a portion of the tab] for my undergrad degree.

But at the same time, it really does not matter what I might have been or could have been or how my life could have been different.    What seems important is the now.    

I do not harbor a grudge against any of the staffers at RMA.  Yes, I think the program was crap.   But the staffers at RMA were simply staffers, doing a job.

When I think of some of the very off statements that were said to me in raps or profeets, I do not feel pain.   Its weird but I do not place much value on the statements.   Who cares about what staffer 'X' said about me?    That was over half my lifetime ago, and really has no bearing on today.

Occasionally, when I think back to how arbitary the envirnoment was and I remember how alone I felt at RMA.  I am sad that my childhood was not filled with stability and happiness.  

There is a part of me that is mourning the lose  of healthy childhood.   Yes, it is a bit lame to mourn what could have been nearly twenty years later.

It fair to say that I am anti-rma, but not to the point that RMA consumes any meaningful amount of my time.

If you have time there have been posts from others during our stay at RMA.    Try searching the site -- in some cases it great to see what other folks are up to, or what they think of RMA.   In some cases the third-hand stories are not so great.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 09:59:00 PM

Brian Bates...you mean "Gomer"? I was there from 02/85-12/86...only 22 months for me...you were there 34 months? What's up with that? I only knew one person there who could have possibly been there 34 months.

I just found this site...and I'm damn glad I did. It seems like everybody has alot of anger towards some of the staff...some of them definitely did suck...too bad more of them couldn't have been like Rod Barkley or Bret & Lisa Carey

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 10, 2006, 06:16:00 AM

Holy crap, I remember Rod. He would grade my papers with an "A++++++", and I'd be like "What the fuck grading scale is he using?"

I liked Will. He was the rather tall balding blonde guy who taught math. I really dug him because he would tell us stories about when he was an engineer on a nuclear sub during his navy days.

_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 18:46 ]

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 01:24:00 PM

grading scale...hahaha....you mean for their "so called" academics in the 80's?

Will Venard was cool too...we always tried to get him to divulge info on the subs that he supposedly worked on...his brother Bob Vernard was cool also.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 10, 2006, 09:18:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-10 10:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

Will Venard was cool too...we always tried to get him to divulge info on the subs that he supposedly worked on...his brother Bob Vernard was cool also.

OMG! We did the exact same thing! We'd ask him all these questions and he'd say "I'm sorry, that's classified." and we'd get such a charge out of that. He had some great stories, though. The one's he was allowed to tell us, that is. He'd tell us stories about all of the trouble he and his navy friends would get into on shore leave, too.

No doubt. Will was cool. He definitely had slack.

I also remember the time Rod took us to the Kootenai indian reservation on a field trip, and he actually knew more about their history than the curator of the tribe's museum did. He actually stumped the guy a few times. How sad.

_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 18:46 ]

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 13, 2006, 07:37:00 PM

Yes, I was there a VERY long time. Summer of 1985 until Spring of  1988. Eeekkk...

Again.. there were some very low times there. And some horrible things said to me, some that I can never forget. But, I guess I choose to  focus on what was positive about being there. I think that I had some great friends. We had some good times... on expeditions. "PUKE ON ME" was  our "band" where someof the guys would play air guitar and sing  the funniest lyrics. Damn... I had not thought about that until now. Makes me smile. Or some of the discussions on the smoking porch. I would sit out there for hours and hours talking to people... and then regreeting it by Friday because I would have smoked all  4 pakcs that had been issued to me the previous Sunday. :smile: I enjoyed teasing Nils about not being able to speak English. He went on his first expedition with my peer group and we screwed with him over and over. We were not  trying to be malicious, just having fun.

My point is that I do have good memories. I do feel an attachment to  RMA... not because of the program or even most of the staff. But because it was a chapter in my life that I shared with some  truly great people...

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 13, 2006, 08:51:00 PM

amazing that you were in the peer group below me...yet graduated 1 1/2 years after me...go figure...since you played "air guitar"...I can assume that you are not "Boogie"...in fact I could probably list 5 names here and one of them would be yours.

I remembered the good stuff for a long time but I had completely blocked all memories of raps, propheets and the workshops.  If people ever asked where I went to high school...I would describe RMA the same way every time like a robot...focusing only on the expeditions, work program and the only thing that I could say about the "therapy" was that I had left with some "good tools"...I sure wish I knew what those so called "tools" are and how they apply to the outside world.

I'm not trying to discount your experience there, but for some of us it was pretty traumatic as we really needed a more individually tailored form of "therapy" rather than just getting yelled at en masse.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 13, 2006, 09:52:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-13 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yes, I was there a VERY long time. Summer of 1985 until Spring of  1988. Eeekkk...



Again.. there were some very low times there. And some horrible things said to me, some that I can never forget. But, I guess I choose to  focus on what was positive about being there. I think that I had some great friends. We had some good times... on expeditions. "PUKE ON ME" was  our "band" where someof the guys would play air guitar and sing  the funniest lyrics. Damn... I had not thought about that until now. Makes me smile. Or some of the discussions on the smoking porch. I would sit out there for hours and hours talking to people... and then regreeting it by Friday because I would have smoked all  4 pakcs that had been issued to me the previous Sunday. :smile: I enjoyed teasing Nils about not being able to speak English. He went on his first expedition with my peer group and we screwed with him over and over. We were not  trying to be malicious, just having fun.



My point is that I do have good memories. I do feel an attachment to  RMA... not because of the program or even most of the staff. But because it was a chapter in my life that I shared with some  truly great people... "

You must have been dropped a peer group. You graduated when I was there. There are a couple of people who come to mind that I recall being dropped. One of them was a friend of mine, actually, (when he wasn't on bans from me and we could actually speak to each other.) He was on bans from the lower school a lot. He wasn't a close close friend, but we liked to hang out occaisionally.

The other person I remember being dropped was because she was really young and they wanted her to graduate when she was older. We weren't close, but I remember her and one other girl being the best spit players in the school. She was also pretty good at hearts, if memory serves.

Ahh, spit. What an awesome game. My pack of cards was like my best friend at that school. Hearts, spades, spit, and my friend and I also really liked skip-bo, which was played with two decks, I think.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2006, 10:04:00 PM

maggie maggie maggie...I am surprised that you take such a one sided view towards RMA.  I'm not surprised as I understand you have a child in one of these schools.  I am curious...will the next child go there...what about the 3rd and 4th child that you have? How many children will you send there before you realize that the problem might not lie with the child but with the parent?

You comment on Lon's website that the people on Fornits are very abusive.  I feel that the most abuse comes from people attacking those that say that there were certain aspects of the program that are NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN.

I find it interesting that the people that seem to have done well after RMA come to these boards in order to tell people that are having difficulties with what they went through to get over it.  Why on earth would somebody who's life was so wonderously affected by the program even feel the need to look for it on the web...and why would they need to discount the fact that other peoples experiences were not similar to yours?

Try telling people about "boogies" experience at RMA...should he have been there?  Should the school have done something else with him other than "warehousing" him. I mean really...isn't 4 years in a program long enough to realize that yelling at him in raps, allowing him to be abused by other students without any consequence and putting him on work details all the time wasn't what he needed?

If the school really cared about the students then here is a perfect example of where they went wrong.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 15, 2006, 10:16:00 PM

I'm not sure why that person said they were there for 34 months, because they said they were there from 85-87, and that's only 24 months.

If it is indeed maggie, I'm fairly certain she was only there for two and a half years, like the rest of us. (30 months.) I don't recall her ever mentioning that she was dropped a peer group. And if she did, there was only a two month window to make it 34 months if this person was indeed there from 85-87.

What makes you think it's maggie? There were lots of people who were there from 85-87.

I'm not saying it's NOT her, I just want to know why you think it IS her.

And I dunno, I guess I just feel that if the person isn't being an outright dickhole and bashing everyone, like Ottawa does when she's incognito, they deserve the right to remain anonymous. If this poster was being a total ass, sure, call them out and name names. But this person was just posting how they felt about the school.

I guess I'm just an old wuss that way. Or maybe it's  because I value my anonymity as well.

_________________

"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild

[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-15 19:59 ]

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 15, 2006, 11:02:00 PM

The beginning of '85 to the end of '87 is actually 36 months. I don't believe he was at the school for 34 months, but I knew more than a couple people that spent upwards of 30 months bouncing between BCA, Ascent, and NIBH.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2006, 12:12:00 AM

she actually said from the summer of 85 to the spring of 88 and seems to have that 34 month number stuck in her head...it's funny that she also claims to have been there 34 months on woodbury's site in one of the threads. it is the thread titled "son still struggling" Maggies post is the second one...I'd cut and paste but the mood over there seems to be almost litigious when it comes to cutting or pasting from their site.  They seem pretty intent on chasing down people that have had "less than exceptional" experiences at these programs when something is posted that may put these schools in a bad light or expose the working relationships that some of the Ed Cons...such as Lon had with schools that he is referring people to. Go ahead and read all of Maggies posts...for some reason the wilderness program that she sent her son to didn't work and now he's off at a TBS as they refer to it there. Had she posted a little more open mindedly there...I would not have called her out here.

When I look at the separate schools websites and start reading the "credentials" (such as where they might have taught in the past) many seem to cover their tracks and it is pretty much impossible for a new parent perusing these sites to know what the web is...unless they knew the people personally.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2006, 01:05:00 PM

I knew that girl at BCA who went to Ascent twice and NIBH a bunch of times. She went to RMA too for a few months. She had started her first day at Ascent 15 months before I got to BCA, I was there for 22 months, and she left 3 months after me. 40 months is a damn long time to be in North Idaho.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 05:37:00 PM

Interesting....

I posted concerning being there for 34 months and I am surprised by the guess of who I am. I did know Maggie. She was not in my peer group nor have I spoken to her since leaving Idaho. I also went to the struggling teens site and read some of her posts. Don't know what to think or how to comment on those. Not my place.

I have never discounted anyone's experience on this site. I just wrote about my own. I have never said that the programs were not abusive, I just pointed out that I chose to remember different things. That's all. I just wanted to point out that among the shit... there was also some good times. That was my only point. It was not intended to start bashing someone else.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 06:02:00 PM

unfortunately, the miserable fuckers around here will never accept that some good things happened there. too bad for them, having a closed mind must be one of the worst ways to go through life. oh well, their problem, not ours.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 06:51:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-15 19:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"maggie maggie maggie...I am surprised that you take such a one sided view towards RMA.  I'm not surprised as I understand you have a child in one of these schools.  I am curious...will the next child go there...what about the 3rd and 4th child that you have? How many children will you send there before you realize that the problem might not lie with the child but with the parent?



You comment on Lon's website that the people on Fornits are very abusive.  I feel that the most abuse comes from people attacking those that say that there were certain aspects of the program that are NOT GOOD FOR CHILDREN.



I find it interesting that the people that seem to have done well after RMA come to these boards in order to tell people that are having difficulties with what they went through to get over it.  Why on earth would somebody who's life was so wonderously affected by the program even feel the need to look for it on the web...and why would they need to discount the fact that other peoples experiences were not similar to yours?



Try telling people about "boogies" experience at RMA...should he have been there?  Should the school have done something else with him other than "warehousing" him. I mean really...isn't 4 years in a program long enough to realize that yelling at him in raps, allowing him to be abused by other students without any consequence and putting him on work details all the time wasn't what he needed?



If the school really cared about the students then here is a perfect example of where they went wrong."

THIS IS MAGGIE... AND YES, I READ THESE POSTS. BUT I DO NOT POST. I STUMBLED ACROSS THIS SITE A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS GOING THROUGH A VERY DIFFICULT TIME WITH MY STEP-SON. HE WAS SENT TO A WILDERNESS PROGRAM -- WHICH WAS A BAD CHOICE AND HE WAS ONLY THERE FOR ABOUT A WEEK. A DECISION I DO NOT NEED TO DEFEND TO ANYONE ON THIS SITE. AND, CONTRARY TO THE POST THAT CLAIMS TO KNOW ME... HE IS STANDING IN MY KITCHEN AS I TYPE...  NOT IN A PROGRAM!!!!

ANYONE THAT KNOWS ME AND MY STORY BACK THEN AND EVEN NOW WOULD NOT THINK THAT I WROTE THE POST ABOUT THE "PUKE ON ME" AIR BAND!!!! IT MUST BE SOMEONE FROM MY PEER GROUP, THOUGH, BECAUSE I REMEMBER WHO MADE UP THAT BAND AND ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE IS DEAD. ANYWAY... I WAS AT RMA FOR A LONG TIME. AND THOSE OF YOU THAT KNOW ME, KNOW WHY. SOME OF US DID NOT COME FROM LOVING, SUPPORTIVE FAMILIES. SOME OF US DID NOT HAVE A PLACE TO GO  AFTER GRADUATING. I WAS 16 WHEN I GRADUATED IN DECEMBER OF 1987!!! I WAS ONE OF THE YOUNGEST STUDENTS THAT THEY TOOK BACK IN THOSE DAYS. I WAS  NOT ALLOWED HOME EVEN AFTER I GRADUATED! SO, I  STAYED... AND THEN A FEW MONTHS LATER WAS ASKED TO LEAVE WITH NO NOTICE. I  WAS TOLD I HAD AN HOUR TO LEAVE, LITERALLY WALK DOWN THE ROAD... BECAUSE I WAS NOT FOLLOWING AGREEMENTS!TALK ABOUT BEING FUCKED UP... I HAD GRADUATED!!!!! IT WAS HORRIBLE. A VERY BAD CHAPTER IN MY LIFE.

THOSE THAT KNOW ME WOULD ALSO KNOW THAT I AM NOT A PRO-RMA PERSON. I AM A PRO-RELATIONSHIP PERSON AND VALUE SOME OF THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT I MADE BACK THEN. ALTHOUGH I  NEVER EXPERIENCED OR WITNESSED ANY PHYSICAL ABUSE, I DID SHARE IN THE EMOTIONAL AND MENTAL ABUSE. YOU KNOW WHAT??? IT SUCKED!!!! IT WAS REALLY SHITTY!!! IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE? I AGREE THAT THERE WERE SOME GOOD TIMES, TOO. I DID MAKE SOME GOOD FRIENDS THERE. I DID LAUGH. I HAD SOME  REALLY FUN TIMES. I HAVE ALSO WITNESSED SOME REALLY GOOD FRIENDS GET SCREWED UP AS A RESULT. I CAN NOT FIND ONE PERSON NOW... SHE MEANS THE WORLD TO ME... BUT, FRANKLY, I THINK SHE WAS FUCKED UP BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE EXPERIENCED AT RMA!!! I KNOW OF SOME OTHER FRIENDS THAT I HAD BEEN CLOSE TO THAT ARE NOT DOING WELL AS ADULTS NOW. IT HURTS ME.

WERE ALL KIDS MEANT TO GO TO RMA? NO!!!! "BOOGIE"  DID NOT BELONG THERE! IT WAS SAD... SOME  OF MY FRIENDS DID NOT BELONG THERE. FOR ME... I AM GLAD THAT I EXPERIENCED WHAT I DID. SOMEONE SAID IN A POST I READ, IT WAS WHAT IT WAS (or something like that). SOME OF US DON'T KNOW ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY... IT CERTAINLY WAS A BETTER PLACE THAN THE HOUSE I GREW UP IN... THE PLACE I DID SUFFER PHYSICAL ABUSE... IT WAS BETTER THAN THE LOCK-UP I WAS IN FOR 6 MONTHS! IT WAS BETTER THAN THE JUNVENILE HALL I WAS IN!!! AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT OTHER OPTIONS I HAD. CERTAINLY, NO ONE ELSE WAS STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE.

BUT MOST ON THIS SITE ONLY SEE ONE SIDE. HOW SAD FOR YOU. I SEE BOTH. HAVE WITNESSED AND EXPERIENCED BOTH AS A STUDENT AND AS A PARENT! AND I AM NOT AFRAID TO SAY OTHERWISE. I HAVE NO REASON TO HIDE BEHIND SOME STUPID SCREEN NAME OR "ANONYMOUS".  

MAGGIE

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 08:25:00 PM

Sorry to discount who you are, but why the caps? Maggie never struck me as the type of person who would "shout".

Anyway, if it is maggie. Hi, I knew you.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 08:38:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-17 17:25:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

"Sorry to discount who you are, but why the caps? Maggie never struck me as the type of person who would "shout".



Anyway, if it is maggie. Hi, I knew you.
"

HONESTLY... EASIER TO TYPE WITH A SMALL CHILD CLIMBING IN AND OUT OF MY LAP. NOT MEANT TO BE A SHOUT. SORRY... AND CASTLE... HOPE YOU ARE DOING WELL. WERE WE CLOSE IN "AGE"? PEER GROUPS? IF YOU KNEW ME... YOU WOULD KNOW MY STORY. AND IF YOU KNEW ME, AND WERE "YOUNGER" IN THE PROGRAM, WOULD KNOW THAT MY LEAVING WAS A TRAGIC EXAMPLE OF HOW RMA DID NOT WORK.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 09:16:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-17 17:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Quote

On 2006-01-17 17:25:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:


"Sorry to discount who you are, but why the caps? Maggie never struck me as the type of person who would "shout".





Anyway, if it is maggie. Hi, I knew you.

"

HONESTLY... EASIER TO TYPE WITH A SMALL CHILD CLIMBING IN AND OUT OF MY LAP. NOT MEANT TO BE A SHOUT. SORRY... AND CASTLE... HOPE YOU ARE DOING WELL. WERE WE CLOSE IN "AGE"? PEER GROUPS? IF YOU KNEW ME... YOU WOULD KNOW MY STORY. AND IF YOU KNEW ME, AND WERE "YOUNGER" IN THE PROGRAM, WOULD KNOW THAT MY LEAVING WAS A TRAGIC EXAMPLE OF HOW RMA DID NOT WORK.   "

I was younger.

What do you mean re: your leaving?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 09:19:00 PM

Castle: how I was asked to leave. Given an hour to leave. I had a dorm under the house. Left all of my stuff. Literally walked down the road... no ride...nothing. That's all. I was a post-grad with two others. Do you remember?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 09:22:00 PM

I could have sworn you graduated.

I remember the dorm. You were in there with Jen West.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 09:26:00 PM

I did graduate. I then stayed on.. had no where to go. Sad, really. Then, got up one morning, and was asked to leave. Told to be gone within an hour. Jen West was several peer groups below me...  younger student. She was great. I  had a dorm by myself... because I had graduated... she and others would come into my dorm. I would let them listen to music.. all that was banned... would allow them so smoke, etc. Maybe that had something to do with me being asked to leave... haha.

Did we ever talk, Castle?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 09:34:00 PM

I don't remember you staying on after you graduated. (I don't remember anyone doing that.) I also don't remember anyone having a solo dorm under the house. Who were the other post-grads with you?

Yeah, we talked on occaision. We weren't close friends or anything, though.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 09:38:00 PM

Lisa and Mike

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on January 17, 2006, 10:17:00 PM

Worgul? I remember her. But unfortunately, I don't remember her staying on after graduation, either. Where was she staying?

and where was the solo dorm under the house? which one was that?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 12:11:00 AM

there was a 3 person dorm under the house...I'm surprised that they would put 2 girls and a guy together in a dorm...especially that one as it was hooked into the same bathroom that the other dorms used...such as the old "bingo parlor" (probably before your time)...which was the dorm next to the equipment room.  The older student dorm was the door to the right of that and there was one other dorm around the corner that was next to the entrance to the stairwell leading up into the house.

Did the dorms go coed after I left? I think I could safely assume not.

Now lets point out a few savory points about what I have read about RMA...ok...you got dirty with younger students in the dorm...I wish I had done that.  I graduated completely clean...dirt free...that is how much of an impact that following the agreements through fear of bans and work details had me.  The only true "dirt" I had would have been the obligatory "cutting up music" during the naptime before propheets...and even once...we smoked a cigarette by the duplex before one propheet.  I say this only to demonstrate that the level of intimidation by some staff members was not doled out equally. They had their "pets" and they had the people that they would "take out their needs" on.

You mention that RMA did little other than send you down the road...with an hours notice...that you left your stuff...and there was no ride.

Tell me how that is not child endangerment...sure...you might have been 18 when you graduated...and that could be their so called legal loophole...but if you claim to have been one of the youngest students admitted...and then add 3 years on to the age that I would suspect that was (there were plenty of 13 and 14 year olds who had to go back to high school after their graduation) I would come to the duduction that you were not yet 18 when they asked you to leave.

Where did they think you would go?  You were in Bonners Ferry Idaho...the only thing you were close to was the middle of nowhere.  Where did they expect a single woman to sleep.  I know that the allowances at RMA did not leave kids with enough money to be able to walk out of the school with little but the clothes on their back and.

Which leads me to think that when you say your pre RMA life was abusive...why were you kept at RMA...was it free or was the abuse just perpetuated with a $3000 per month payment until RMA decided that you just weren't with the program enough to send you "packing" in such an irresponsible way.

Other topics of relevance to me are that we all knew how much worse Provo and Elan were while we were at RMA.  The constant reminder of these schools as our option was nothing more than a scare tactic to get us involved in the program.  We KNEW that Provo and Elan were too severe and that was attested to by students that had been pulled from those schools and subsequently placed at RMA.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD LON WOODBURY REFER PEOPLE TO THESE SCHOOLS?!?!?!?!

enough for now...I'm not saying that every aspect of these programs was bad and that there are not good memories to be had...but things haven't changed with regards to the threraputic tools that can be quite harmful to students that really shouldn't have been part of those things.

thank God I hear the academics have gotten better...but that's really not the issue that most of us have with these programs IMNSHO.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Gabbing on February 04, 2006, 02:44:00 PM

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 11:19:00 PM

I knew Maggie while she was there.  I also remember her being close to Jason Mitchell, a member of my peer group.  We arrived in summer of '84 and graduated summer of '86.

Jason Mitchell is doing well last I saw him a few years back.  He was attending the CIA (Culinary Institure of America, not the Intel Agency) and was specializing in Kitchen design, which is not what it sounds like.  It has a lot to do with knowing what wines to stock and other things and not just where you should put the stove and oven.  Bee-sting was his nickname.  A good guy.

Jason was buddies with Mike Bird, aka: The Coca Cola Kid.  Mike is living in south Florida near Palm Springs.  

Geoff Sprague was also in our peer group, he lived in the New York area and we are great friends to this day.  Talk every single week.  

Brian Bates was not a student but a nerdy staff member who came on in late '86 or early '87.  Tall, lanky fellow who played semi-pro soccer as a goalie.  His famous words that most recall were his nodding his head at you and then saying, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying but we are going to do it my way."  Which was typically the wrong way.  

I live in the San Jose, CA area, and I bumped into a student who had been pulled about a year into her program named Michelle Falk.  She is doing very well, looks like a model, and runs a very upscale hair salon in Palo Alto, CA.

Ron Fichera lived in Denver last I saw him.  I lived out there with him for about two years, but he never overcame his severe alcoholism and though I tried and was successful once in getting him out of the bottle, he just kept going back to it.  RMA tools only go so far.

Heather Thompson lived in Dallas, TX last I saw her.  We bumped into each other in a Mall out there when I moved there to be closer to Susan, the girl I caught kissing in the Springroom walk-in freezer in Feb, 1986.  

Lisa Hawkenson and one of her closest friends who I can never recall her name (jet black hair, short, same peer group), both lived in San Jose after graduating.  I ran into them both and we had dinner together.

Mark Lim I saw in 1990 at my brother's wedding in Los Angeles.  He seemed to be doing well, happy and we chatted for a couple of hours about old times and who we had bumped into.  Mark was a much older student and had arrived probably in '83.

I went to a parent/student group here in the Bay Area in 1990 or 1991 and ran into Doug Kim Brown and a couple of the oldest students ever.  Phoebe and another girl, can't recall her name.  (Hey, it was 20 years ago!)

Also two guys in a peer group below mine, same one as Lisa Hawkinsen and Kim...  Almost have her name... Gormann?  I don't know if that is right, but pretty sure her name was Kim.  The guys I now can't remember, give me a few more lines, and I might recall.  But they both lived in Cupertino, home of Apple Computers and my home town.  They lived together and were good friends and had some kind of scam going on where they could get me free plane tickets to fly down and see Susan.  

Last I heard Melissa Lanier was living back in Raleigh, North Carolina, was married and had a kid.  

A girl with the last name of Weisser, same peer group as Kim and Lisa and those two guys whose names I still can't form in my head but I am working on it, she lived briefly in Denver, dating Ron Fichera before leaving to go back to California claiming Telly Savalis was after her along with a White Slavery ring...  Seriously.  

Craig Moyer, known most for his music ability with the guitar and writing and playing some cool songs while at RMA was last seen in Palo Alto, CA.  He told me had quit playing music.  That was only a couple of years after his '85 graduation and my '86 graduation.

Guy Mayer, upper peer group, was living in North Houston, TX area.  I last saw him a few years back in 1999.  He was doing well.  Saw him a few times actually.  Not married.  

Susan Ellenburg lives in Anchorage, Alaska.  She did the college thing, moved home, is currently divorced and has 3 kids.  We broke up in 1989 because I was an idiot.  We will leave it at that.  
We had been together 5 years including RMA.  
And, contrary to the popular legend, we were not doing the wild thing when "caught".  We had been, but we weren't at the time Bruce Wilson walked in to get the easels for the Challenge Night.  And Bruce was the only one there.  There was not a collection of other staff all standing around gawking as is one version I have heard.  But I will never forget that Spring Room.

Kevin?  Cameron?  Still can't quite place those two guys in the peer group below me.  Strange since I did some business with them.  

All in all, everyone I saw is doing well.  Common theme was that everyone experienced a period of traumatic shock after leaving RMA.  Their education suffered from that lack of it at RMA.  Many returned to using the same drugs they were kept away from in Idaho but had used before going there.   Everyone said they were dirty with one or more students at the graduation party in Couer d' Alene.  Some did college, some continued to have problems with their parents.

Oh, I also saw Loanne Wolpert somewhere.  Not sure where.  She seemed as caffeine charged as ever.

Kevin Devorak?  That's one of the names...  he and the other guy were inseparable.

Bailey Holt I never ran in to, but I understand he commited suicide shortly after leaving RMA.

The reason there were good times to remember at RMA despite the trauma and the mind games, is similar to those who go to war.  You and your buddies form a bond, and that friendship is all that keeps you from dwelling on the misery and suffering around you.  RMA was not the place for us, but we found ourselves there with others our age, with similar problems, who might have been screwed up before arriving there, but were all fairly decent people.  We got along because we had to.  Seeing the same 100 people every day, living in close quarters.  We laughed because the place was so absurd.  There were good times, but most important there were so really good people who go sent there.  RMA sucked, and most of us felt that way.  It was probably a little easier when we older folk went there, but we saw the changes coming.  The staff party where they all came down drunk.  They had no judgement and no idea what they were doing, and because of that, and the experimental therapy based on the writings in the book The Prophet, we underwent a hellish, unguided two year period of our lives we will never be able to fully understand or forget.
In time it fades in memory.  All except the good memories.  That is why some of us only remember the good stuff.  The bad just fades with time.

I hope some of you remember the names of the people I listed above.  

In a totally unrelated topic...  Someone made a post about remembering being on Full Time and building the rock wall between the parking area and the field during a parent visit weekend.  I recall that person being Chris Taylor who was an older student one or two peer groups ahead of me.  
Chris, I hope you are doing well.

And finally, I often wondered about the lack of a reunion.  Emily Harris was supposed to have been in charge of planning our peer group's 10th year reunion, which was 10 years ago and never happened.  Has anyone else ever been to an RMA reunion.  Do they happen?  Would anyone go to one?  

That's it folks...

--Bill,

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: OKB4RMA on February 20, 2006, 11:32:00 PM

Bill...Chris Taylor is doing well...I wish you had a screenname here so that I could PM you.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on February 21, 2006, 07:23:00 AM

Quote

In a totally unrelated topic... Someone made a post about remembering being on Full Time and building the rock wall between the parking area and the field during a parent visit weekend. I recall that person being Chris Taylor who was an older student one or two peer groups ahead of me.
Chris, I hope you are doing well.

Heh, I built the wall right above that one.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 08:54:00 AM

I worked on that wall a lot in 1988.
don't know almost any of those people but yet I do.

I feel the bond with these names just knowing now that I'm not alone.
Not trying to be sappy, but just remembering.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 11:47:00 AM

Bill: thanks for posting all of that info about so many old friends. It is great to read that so many are doing OK.

I agree with you about the relationship thing. We all just did what we had to do to get by... frankly, we were all "survivors", even before we got there.

REUNIONS: I know that there are several people that would love to get together. There is one being planned now for people that were there when we were there. No one is too interested in getting together in Idaho...or whatever... but most just want to see old friends.. before we read about another tragedy.

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on February 22, 2006, 07:35:00 AM

Who are the people planning the event? Have people voiced any interest in going?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on February 22, 2006, 04:38:00 PM

Hi Bill, I know one of the people in Cupertino you are referring to is Jon Prall.  He lived for a while with Dan Nater who was in my peer group.  And I'm happy to say I no longer have jet black hair.   Thanks for the post, it was great to see all those old names again!

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: try another castle on February 22, 2006, 10:56:00 PM

Dan Nater, Dan Nater.... that name sounds really familiar. Who else was in his peer group?

Title: Hi kids
Post by: Anonymous on July 20, 2006, 01:18:57 AM

Hi folks,

It's a bit surreal to hear a discussion of "boogie" twenty years after the fact, but nice to know some of you are still alive and well.

I'm not sure why people aren't posting their names here but if you care my name's Matt St. John and I graduated June 87.  

I had an overall positive experience at RMA and I don't regret it. I recall a few pricks on staff, but nothing we don't encounter in other walks of life. Fond memories of the "slave wheel", warm-ups, and expeditions. Jumping in the pond in the middle of winter.

I'm practicing law in Alaska. I love it here, and I think that raps prepared me well for mediating high-conflict disputes. In my practice I've yet to see someone get so upset that their nose starts bleeding, which I remember on a couple of Mon Wed Fri sessions in Bonners Ferry. Life seems tranquil by comparison.

Expecting a daughter in a couple of weeks.


Cheers,
Matt

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2006, 12:58:31 AM

I also went to RMA during those years(1986-1988). I realize you posted this a long time ago but maybe you still check.  The RMA I remember was nothing like what I have read here.  Wow, things change .

Title: 1987-8
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2006, 12:04:51 PM

what was your time like? your RMA?

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on May 31, 2007, 10:16:46 AM

Matt,

If you still check back to this site.    I hope all went well with your daughter.   My husband and I are expecting our first child, a boy, this summer.

Sarah B.

Title: Maggie's Departure
Post by: dishdutyfugitive on May 31, 2007, 03:38:01 PM

Maggie,

I arrived 2/88 and remember you. I can't believe how crazy your departure was! I don't remember any of it.

Were you 18 at the time? (I read the posts but couldn't figure it out). If you were under 18 they could have been sued and should have been.

Where did you go? How did you get by ($) ?

Title: Mare Dubovitch
Post by: Goobyjow on June 07, 2007, 04:01:45 AM

Why did everyone love Mare D?
It's sad that she died but I suppose I was one of the rare people that she hated. Don't get me wrong, she was never overtly cruel.. just cold.

Title: Boogie Woolrich!!!
Post by: Goobyjow on June 07, 2007, 04:02:42 AM

Love..

Title: Maggie's son
Post by: Goobyjow on June 07, 2007, 04:08:00 AM

Thank God Maggie your son was only there for a week! I think family problems need to be dealt with 'in house'. If your family really cares for you they will at least try that . And then send you to live with your Grandma:)

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2007, 04:05:44 PM

bump

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: venicespirit on November 29, 2007, 12:42:34 AM

Jennifer is that you????

Title: RMA 85-87
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2007, 10:15:47 PM

no