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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: blownawaytheidahoway on November 17, 2005, 07:54:00 PM

Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on November 17, 2005, 07:54:00 PM
Richard Armstrong, Dana and Stacy Wasserman, Bruce (dildo) Wilson, Dan Earl, His daughter Shannon (maybe married to dildo), son Tim, Carmen Earl, her daughter Nina, Caroline(Jenny) Wolfe, Randy Eide, Vicki Jones and her husband Chuck with a different last name, Steve Rooky, Thompsons, Patrick Stambusky, Tim Brace, John Aaron, Rea and his wife Sharon Krieger, Brett and his wife Lisa Carey, Mike Bonner, Ken bulky guy, Mike dimarco? tall skinny guy started in 1989ish, Ned Murray,
these are just mostly senior staff whose faces I can see purple as they scream their upsetting lies at me. I can't wait to remember more? Sheila the big blonde aerobics instructor, how could I have forgotten to mention Doug and Mona Kim-Brown, or Joe Sweeney, Dan and Mare Krumpatitch, or The Spaniard Alberto who was Carmens relative who was fired for fondling?, Ken the big guy with the mustache who I think lived with his momma, or timeless Lou at the farm, Glenn and Lisa Sutton, Matt Fitzgerald, Greg Burton, Will and Nancy Venard, Alan Milar and his wife, Bob Silfie(s)who had been there for a long time and could pretty well pick a guitar to orgasm, Greg Springer, some balding mustached guy I think was named Tom Waters, Joan- hippy with art, Ed Katz, Susan Nelson, yes Russ Hershod with really, really thick glasses. Blockhead is a fine description for both Russ's. (not rous's...rodents of unusual size)
what about these guys: Mike Parr, L.J. Mitchell, and some other bounty hunter dude? Please comment on any or all of these present/former RMA/CEDU staff who I knew first hand.
-blownaway
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: try another castle on November 17, 2005, 09:29:00 PM
Do you remember Steve? (I can't remember his last name.) Tall lanky guy with grey curly hair and a moustache? He taught stained glass, and his girlfriend worked there, too and taught journalism. Anyway, they both left because they realized the program was full of shit. Or at least that was my impression. I think he told me that he didn't agree with a lot of what the school taught. I think his last name was Drinkard, but that might have been the last name of the other Steve, who was the creepy Steve who worked down in Quest, and also had a moustache. He was shorter, and shared a lot about this cessna plane accident he had been in when he lived in Alaska. Anyway, he was total pedophile material, but the stained glass steve was cool.

The cool Steve once told me to stop trying to force myself to be "normal" and just admit that I'm an eccentric artist who is just always going to be a lovable weird guy, and stop trying to convince myself that I have to move to suburbia and have a white picket fence and 2.5 kids. Obviously he didn't tell me this in a rap, because if he had, the other staff would have screamed their heads off at him, but I personally always appreciated his insight, because it was true. I am a weirdo.

Ironically, Sharon yelled at me for the very same issue, saying I tried too hard to have an "eccentric" image and that was "junkie thinking". Obviously she and Steve didn't see eye to eye on this.

Do you remember Mike Nalley, by any chance? Balding dude, twangy, down home accent. Always wore short sleeve button down oxfords. He was a newer staff when you and I were there. Man, he was fuckin weird. He would say the strangest, most nonsequitor, inappropriate things in raps. We would all look at each other and be like "what the fuck"?

Alberto got busted for fondling? Ha! That doesn't surprise me.

Brad Throssel was another one who I think ranks pretty high on the pedophile-o-meter.

Joe Sweeney... I always thought he looked like a scandanavian man-child. One thing I liked about him is that he absolutely refused to yell at people in raps. That totally went against his grain, and a lot of times, he didn't condone people "running their anger", either. Didn't he end up going to Cascades?

Remember Twila? She was my counselor in Quest. I actually really adored her. I can't believe Richard slipped her a rufie and raped her, that shit head. AND, it only went to civil trial, not criminal. That's fucking insane.

I also remember Kristen, she did watercolors. I took a lot of her art classes. and I remember Kathy Zins, of all people. The kids would tease her a lot, cause she was kinda dorky. But dorky is ok.

I also remember Sidney, who was a nice older lady who worked in admissions and administration. She did my intake when I got there. (NOT the strip search, she had nothing to do with that. Just the paperwork.) She really liked me but always wondered why I never warmed up to her, and it was probably because of that negative association I had of the first day of coming to RMA. But she really was a very nice person.  She went through the propheets when she had the chance, but otherwise stayed outside the whole "theraputic" part of the school.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: nashari on November 18, 2005, 01:07:00 AM
wow... i havent thought about any of those people in so fuckin long.... hmmm... Ned can kiss my ass...
Shelia ran my dreams, and i was in more raps with her that she would have everyone move accross the room from me with no supports (even an all girl rap that i was the only guy... talk about set ups) that fuckin cunt....
Glen was cool sometimes to me... depended on his mood, and what we were doing.... but he never really gave me a hard time...
Fred is such a full of shit back stabber, that it is sad he ever worked there....
His wife Patsy that was on Ned's team deserves some respect though... it did seem that she really cared about the kids.
I never really had to deal with jon aaron that much... but the teachers i miss would be greg (history) and what was that dude with a moustache that tought geology?? he was always super cool to everyone.... scott rigenback, but he always flirted with all the girls... ha ha ha...
hmmmm.... Who else do i remember??? hmmm... nicole baily.... sheila's right hand... oh yeah... fuck her too... lol
anyways... i don't feel like bashin anymore... butthe people i mentioned affected my life with their emotional abuse, and the people i talked good about, deserve my good words... that is it, and that is all...
Joe Keuter pg-56
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: nashari on November 18, 2005, 01:07:00 AM
oh yeah... and fuck rick sneider ... that wife beatin fuckin prick... i hope someone really does to him what he did to his wife and kids one day.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: try another castle on November 18, 2005, 05:06:00 AM
Was the sheila idaho and I knew a different person than nashari's sheila? (sheila claremont.) I thought they were two entirely different people. The sheila I knew was simply an aerobics teacher, and I'm pretty sure her last name wasn't claremont.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2005, 09:43:00 AM
I remember Sheila Clairmont. She was an RMA staff member but moved over to NWA when I was there. I hated that bitch.

Glenn Sutton: Asshole! I had to kiss his ass because he was my team leader.
Lisa Sutton: Bitch! I can't believe they had kids together. They would have been better off having strict anal sex only.

Bruce Wilson: He was the team leader at NWA for the girls team. He always seemed like a laid back guy, but there was something about him that made me uneasy. Oh, right. Maybe it was the fact that he would cuddle with prepubecent girls all day long. Nothing strange about that though right?

Bruce Johnson: He was a straight weirdo at NWA. Always a half step behind Bruce Wilson.

Kelly something: Fat as HELL assistant team leader at NWA. Man, this bitch was totally fat. I mean REALLY REALLY fat. And so was her husband. They couldn't have kids (on account of her being so fat I would imgaine), so they adopted like 12.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2005, 12:32:00 PM
I went to CEDU RS. And Mona and Doug would visit us from Idaho.  They were always very nice to me, but I wondered what they were like at their home school.  I never ahd to deal with tehm as family heads etc.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: RMA_PG_63 on November 18, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
Sheila became the team leader for Genesis before I even got there in 94.  she was very loud and holy shit if you ever crossed her you could just forget  ever having an easy day
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: rmagirl on November 18, 2005, 04:06:00 PM
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: nashari on November 18, 2005, 08:31:00 PM
sheila claremont still did arobics for girls when i was there, and is the loud one that was a team leader... hmmmm....
Glen became a team leader?? Thats all i have to say on that...
Bruce, and his cups in rap.... lol... I remember that now...

Shelly and brenda and glenna were all the kitchen ladies when i was there in 93-95...
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2005, 01:49:00 PM
I remember most of the staff that have been mentioned. I don't really remember them in such a negative way, though. There are a few, like Joe Sweeny, that I wondered about and question whether he should have been teaching there. But, I really think that most of these folks cared about the kids. I can't say that I ever witnessed any abuse.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on November 22, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 10:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"... There are a few, like Joe Sweeny, that I wondered about and question whether he should have been teaching there.  "


why? because he fucked animals?
or should there be a differenct reason?
I was new when he told us that in a rap and IT FREAKED ME OUT.
but i know there must be other reasons. please people, say something usefull. [ This Message was edited by: blownawaytheidahoway on 2005-11-22 15:26 ]
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: absolutebest on November 22, 2005, 08:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-18 17:31:00, nashari wrote:

"sheila claremont still did arobics for girls when i was there, and is the loud one that was a team leader... hmmmm....

Glen became a team leader?? Thats all i have to say on that...

Bruce, and his cups in rap.... lol... I remember that now...



Shelly and brenda and glenna were all the kitchen ladies when i was there in 93-95...



"


I had one of those cups, but it disappeared along with all of my other RMA shit.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: try another castle on November 22, 2005, 11:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-22 15:25:00, blownawaytheidahoway wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-11-22 10:49:00, Anonymous wrote:



"... There are a few, like Joe Sweeny, that I wondered about and question whether he should have been teaching there.  "




why? because he fucked animals?

or should there be a differenct reason?

I was new when he told us that in a rap and IT FREAKED ME OUT.

but i know there must be other reasons. please people, say something usefull. [ This Message was edited by: blownawaytheidahoway on 2005-11-22 15:26 ]"


Well, I remember a few students who had disclosed to me or in my presence that they had fucked animals, too. So the staff didn't exactly corner the market on zoophilic experiences in that place.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2005, 11:04:00 AM
not that there is anything wrong with that!
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 03:35:00 PM
God Damnit! If people want to question what happened at CEDU, just read about kids fucking animals. I mean if there are people out there who are advocating that CEDU was a good place, how do you explain kids having sex with animals? No matter how dense you are, there isn't any way to condone sex with animals. Gross.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
Tony Alamaris, or however you spell it. He was a weirdo. Didn't he have a lisp?!
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: try another castle on December 22, 2005, 08:36:00 AM
OMG, you know who I totally forgot about? Nils! Remember him? (The huge German guy. Or Austrian, I can't remember.)


Also, apparently, Lori Rist was a faculty when I was there, but I don't remember what she looked like, so on a whim, I googled her name in image search, and came up with this:

(http://http://pnaa.org/photos/RogueRiver.jpg)

Which I found hilarious. So I look on the homepage, and dig up this:

http://pnaa.org/page.cgi?page=member_de ... mber_id=69 (http://pnaa.org/page.cgi?page=member_detail&member_id=69)

Lori Rist runs an Alpaca farm now? It's got to be the same person, obviously. (The WA is a typo.) Also, if you go to their member farm homepages, almost all the alpaca farms are in Idaho. What's up with Idaho and alpacas?

Anyway, I remember people saying that Lori was a total bitch. I'm wracking my brains trying to remember what she looked like or who she was. She actually presented for one of the people in my peer group on graduation, apparently.

_________________
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-14 19:03 ]
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-01 12:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"God Damnit! If people want to question what happened at CEDU, just read about kids fucking animals. I mean if there are people out there who are advocating that CEDU was a good place, how do you explain kids having sex with animals? No matter how dense you are, there isn't any way to condone sex with animals. Gross. "


You guys are worse than a bunch of little 13 year old girls. Fool claims he fucked a goat at BCA, and all of a sudden you got people on here talking about the animal-fucking epidemic. Man, it was terrible. One day kids were sneakin' up to the quest trail to smoke squares and the occassional bluntski. The next they're all sneaking down to the farm to have an orgy with bobo, knockadoo and the goats. You guys are comedy.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2005, 01:27:00 PM
Lori reist had big glasses and darh hair. She worked at Cedu and then RMA in like 1990ish. Think Wonderwoman with thick glasses, shlumpy with warts. She could be mean, but never scared me. I had seniority on her.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2005, 01:42:00 PM
nils tomsman from austria (he claimed)
guess he was a national "hand-ball" champion.
remember? and his little dog too? what was her name?
what became of them?
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2005, 03:36:00 PM
Sounds like most of you were at RMA, but there was a guy named Martin who was the very definition of sinister intentions. He was apparently a Mennonite, and I don't know what that really entails, but for a guy supposedly dedicated to God and helping wayward youths he sure seemed to focus on wriggling up to and cuddling with the smallish young men. It was fucking repulsive. For my first two or three months he kept trying to develop this "special" bond with me, until finally I told him that regardless of the inequity of power between student and staff (i.e. absolute control, dwarfing any type of healthy parental influence) I was quite aware of the inappropriate bent of his actions, and please, get the fuck off me before I make this a bigger issue then he wanted. Sure enough, he eased right off me, but he sure as shit doggedly pursued every other newbie who he thought displayed vulnerability. Part of me wished I'd stuck of for the other kids, but really, I had enough fucking problems of my own.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: try another castle on December 22, 2005, 08:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-22 10:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Lori reist had big glasses and darh hair. She worked at Cedu and then RMA in like 1990ish. Think Wonderwoman with thick glasses, shlumpy with warts. She could be mean, but never scared me. I had seniority on her."


Did she teach journalism, by any chance?

I remember a teacher who looked like that, but taught journalism, and came up there with a guy named Steve who taught stained glass. But I'm pretty sure they both left before I graduated. Steve thought the program was full of shit, and I could have sworn that the woman did, too. (I don't believe she had warts, either.) She was also very young. I think Steve and her were an item at one point, but by the time they got up to RMA, they were simply friends.

And Lori came on before 1990, because I graduated in 89, and she presented for someone in my peer group.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on December 23, 2005, 11:25:00 AM
WTF? LMMFAO
i wonder if that's really the same one?[ This Message was edited by: blownawaytheidahoway on 2005-12-23 08:26 ]
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 23, 2005, 04:16:00 PM
Nils Tonsman was great!!!! Nothing bad to say about him!
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 02:34:00 AM
I remember all of the people in the Blownaways post...the cool ones in my mind were Brett Carey...Lisa was ok but could be a bit snippy. Rod Barkley, Nils Tunsman (hahaha...I remember when he first got there)...they were all cool...and when I think of Joe Sweeney...all I can think of is a damn slave driver on the forestry crew.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on January 25, 2006, 02:42:00 AM
Does anyone remember Laura fucking Quiroz, that short squatty, nasty, missing teeth, mullet woman?  Or Kathrine, that tall manly woman who reeked of cigarettes and cheap perfume?  Laura Quiroz told some of my only friends there that I was going to die after I left and wouldn't let them get my letters.  And now here I am about to start my PhD.  She was a highschool dropout like most of the 'teachers' there.  Rick Sneider, always talking about every time he has a bad day he wants to snort some coke.  Those people were a joke with way more serious issues than most of the kids who were sent there.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on April 06, 2006, 01:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-23 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nils Tonsman was great!!!! Nothing bad to say about him! "


Icht ben ein Ousteriecher mit der lader hosen. Yah. I Can't believe it's not butter.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2006, 01:41:00 AM
does anyone remember this short lumberjack guy tim brace hired to work at RMA called Joe something. he was a really short creepy guy. he had to go thru much of the experiences with my peer group. 83-85. he had sex with all these farm animals and would
go on about it. i remember he talked about fucking a chicken, a sheep, a dog, a pig. i am not kidding i think he even tried to fuck a horse while up on a step ladder! its crazy and absolutley disgusting! we were all traumatized by stuff that happened at RMA/CEDU but that guy was a little freak and had no business working with kids. what was tim brace thinking to hire this guy? anyhow, in one of those propheets you had to pick someone you wanted to "build a relationship" with and he came over to me saying he wanted to be my friend. i always tried to keep my head together there in general and really fought drinking the cool aid so to speak and in that moment i was like "fuck that dude" you will not ever be my friend. your whack you fucked a chicken!! LOL. i never ever spent any time with him and got into trouble and had to do a work detail because i wouldnt tell this guy my story or spend time with him on the floor. he was a freak. but i will say i sure as hell didnt feel bad at all about my one "homosexual experience" after hearing people like that joe guy had sex with animals. pure fucking bizaro!
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2006, 12:49:00 PM
any one remember a resident named Joel Saymer something like that? Big fucker broke his leg on a sking trip?
Title: fuck you all
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2006, 01:48:54 PM
i survived that looney bin...most of u are just winey pig fuckers...not tough enough to beat your own meat...losers...if anything good came out of that nightmare was GREG BURTON...he was the best...the rest could all get fucked...and those bca fuckers all were fucking sheep and
that fat chick...one shock for you though is that caroline was good in bed...sad when she took winston and left...o well...
Title: Re: fuck you all
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 09:07:39 AM
Quote from: ""survivor pg 55""
i survived that looney bin...most of u are just winey pig fuckers...not tough enough to beat your own meat...losers...if anything good came out of that nightmare was GREG BURTON...he was the best...the rest could all get fucked...and those bca fuckers all were fucking sheep and
that fat chick...one shock for you though is that caroline was good in bed...sad when she took winston and left...o well...


LOOKS like CAROLINE (slag of epic proportions) came to see what all the hype was about.
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2007, 09:16:26 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
does anyone remember this short lumberjack guy tim brace hired to work at RMA called Joe something. he was a really short creepy guy. he had to go thru much of the experiences with my peer group. 83-85. he had sex with all these farm animals and would

go on about it. i remember he talked about fucking a chicken, a sheep, a dog, a pig. i am not kidding i think he even tried to fuck a horse while up on a step ladder! its crazy and absolutley disgusting! we were all traumatized by stuff that happened at RMA/CEDU but that guy was a little freak and had no business working with kids. what was tim brace thinking to hire this guy? anyhow, in one of those propheets you had to pick someone you wanted to "build a relationship" with and he came over to me saying he wanted to be my friend. i always tried to keep my head together there in general and really fought drinking the cool aid so to speak and in that moment i was like "fuck that dude" you will not ever be my friend. your whack you fucked a chicken!! LOL. i never ever spent any time with him and got into trouble and had to do a work detail because i wouldnt tell this guy my story or spend time with him on the floor. he was a freak. but i will say i sure as hell didnt feel bad at all about my one "homosexual experience" after hearing people like that joe guy had sex with animals. pure fucking bizaro!


definition of little pig fucker: see above former CEDU STAFF.  :evil:
Title: MATT FITZGERALD
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2007, 11:33:26 AM
SHOW YOURSELF

we all agree that you seemed to be one of the good guys.
don't you want to talk to us about the 'philosophical differences'?

or are you down with the pig fuckers from CEDU again?
AMERICA wants to know.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2009, 12:05:46 AM
You forgot Brian "Master" Bates!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: RMA Survivor on December 06, 2009, 12:35:21 AM
The short staff member was probably Joe Sweeney.  Lived about half a mile from campus up the hill.  He was part of the school before.  Before it was RMA.  Some kind of lumberjack program, and they figured since they were going to have us chopping wood all the time, they needed someone who had played with long-handled objects before.  

Joe was definitely a few ants shy of a full picnic.  And for that matter, a few inches shy of five feet tall.  

Brian Master Bates.  Creep Extraordinaire.  Every hug from this guy was like being molested.  And he stank.  Breath, body and all.  I have really only found two things in my life to be scary.  The movie Jaws and Brian Bates.
Title: Brian Bates
Post by: Ursus on December 06, 2009, 12:50:08 AM
Quote from: "JenniferD"
You forgot Brian "Master" Bates!!!!!!!!!!
See: Search (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/search.php?keywords=brian+bates&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search)
Title: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2009, 02:06:31 AM
RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

1.  Caroline
2.  Patti Jo
3.  Fred Thompson
4.  Patsy Thompson
5.  Connie
6.  Alberto
7.  Greg Burton
8.  Lisa   Sutton
9.  Glen Sutton
10. Ned Murray & Lucy
11.  Brett Carey & Lisa Carey
12.  John Aaron
13.  Shiela Clairmont
14.  Ray Kreider
15. Brad Hanson
16. Russ Hersrood [Spelling on last name could be wrong]
17. Rod Barkley
18. Joe Sweeney
19. Tony Almaras
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2009, 02:09:58 AM
20. Bruce Wilson
21. Randy Eide
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: RMA Survivor on December 08, 2009, 04:58:54 PM
22.  Tom Cray (Ran Quest in '84, maybe '85 too.)
23. Ned Murray (I think he had a wife named Laura)
24. Cindy Grey (Low level staff, loved to put people on bans for no reason)
25. Dan Krumptitch (Died recently)
26. Mare Dubavitch ( Married to Dan, died a few years back)
27. Will Vernard (Handyman extraordinaire)
28. Lou (Can't remember last name, the guy who ran the farm)
Title: loser
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2009, 07:44:38 PM
Quote from: "survivor pg 55"
i survived that looney bin...most of u are just winey pig fuckers...not tough enough to beat your own meat...losers...if anything good came out of that nightmare was GREG BURTON...he was the best...the rest could all get fucked...and those bca fuckers all were fucking sheep and
that fat chick...one shock for you though is that caroline was good in bed...sad when she took winston and left...o well...
:twofinger:
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: henrynelson on June 06, 2010, 12:21:13 PM
I did not know Ned Murray at a CEDU school but have encountered him at one of his other schools. How did he treat students?
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 12:46:52 PM
Quote from: "henrynelson"
I did not know Ned Murray at a CEDU school but have encountered him at one of his other schools. How did he treat students?


Ned was good with the kids and well liked.  He left RMA in 1997 and took an Associate Head Master position at the Baylor School in Tennessee to be closer to his son and family, I believe.  He enjoyed a few years there and then accepted a position as HeadMaster at Episcopal day school in Augusta Ga in 2003.  He was arrested for DUI in 2007 which a subsequent background search revealed he had no prior record.

He continues there today as HeadMaster.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 01:05:15 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter didn't go to Rocky Mountain Academy when Ned Murray worked there, I did.  I graduated from RMA in 1993.  Ned was guilty as many other staff were of verbally abusing students in raps.  The screaming, yelling etc brainwashing to RMA culture.  Children were led to believe "running your anger" or "taking care of your feelings" was the work people needed to do.  People had absolutely no fucking idea what this involved.  Ned was a major player in promoting this RMA culture.

No I wasnt there when Ned was there.  I never attended RMA at all.  Joel, I think you should be honest and tell everyone that you never Attended "Open Sky wilderness" or CEDU.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 01:57:46 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter didn't go to Rocky Mountain Academy when Ned Murray worked there, I did.  I graduated from RMA in 1993.  Ned was guilty as many other staff were of verbally abusing students in raps.  The screaming, yelling etc brainwashing to RMA culture.  Children were led to believe "running your anger" or "taking care of your feelings" was the work people needed to do.  People had absolutely no fucking idea what this involved.  Ned was a major player in promoting this RMA culture.

No I wasnt there when Ned was there.  I never attended RMA at all.  Joel, I think you should be honest and tell everyone that you never Attended "Open Sky wilderness" or CEDU.

...

RMA was a CEDU school Whooter.

I know, but you didnt attend Open Sky Wilderness.
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 02:11:02 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Did you go through all night workshops with minimal sleep, food and water Whooter? Did you have minimal contact with brother/sister?  

Yes I did.  The rest I did not.

I commented about Ned because I had heard about him and read about him.  If something went on behind closed doors then just come out and tell us.  It easy to make statements like that to dirty people up for no reason and without cause, Joel.  Nothing you stated indicated that Ned was a bad person.  Because Ms. Wolfe yelled at you justifies you to say Ned was a bad person?  It very weak.


Have you ever had an at-risk child?  Have you ever had a child leave their hypodermic needle out for his 3 year old sister to carry around?  Ever had a child run away for days on end only to be called in the middle of the night to come get her in another state where she overdosed?  Ever had a child drop out of school for no reason and just take off?  Ever had a child refuse therapy?  Ever had a child beat up his mother and put her in the hospital?  Have you ever had to make a decision to seek help outside the home for your child because you cant help them anymore?

Would it boil your blood if people made fun of these parents and said they just wanted to put to put their kids in a boarding school so they could travel and have fun?  Or read here as others question their parenting skills?  Would it boil your blood if regular fornits posters pretended to know how these parents feel?

Have you ever majored in child psychology and decide to spend a year after grad school working with young people and decide a local therapeutic boarding school would be a good choice?  How about a staff person who works on their own time to help some of these kid get over a tough time?
Does it make your blood boil to see them ridiculed and called child abusers?  Does it bother you that people here place their names on the internet for all their family members to see while they ridicule them?

Do you think it is right that people pretend to know what it is like to be a parent of an at-risk teen or a staff person or director of a program?
Does it make your blood boil enough to say something when this occurs or do you stay silent and accept it?



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 04:40:19 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 04:47:22 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 04:48:09 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Irrelevant Whooter. This has nothing to do wit Ned Murray.

Agreed, lets get back to the point before you derailed the thread.

Quote from: "henrynelson"
I did not know Ned Murray at a CEDU school but have encountered him at one of his other schools. How did he treat students?


Ned was good with the kids and well liked.  He left RMA in 1997 and took an Associate Head Master position at the Baylor School in Tennessee to be closer to his son and family, I believe.  He enjoyed a few years there and then accepted a position as HeadMaster at Episcopal day school in Augusta Ga in 2003.  He was arrested for DUI in 2007 which a subsequent background search revealed he had no prior record.

He continues there today as HeadMaster.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 04:55:24 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
....  Since you brought it up, it does reflect your parenting skills, yes?  Only you can answer why your child was leaving hypodermic needles out for a 3 year old child.  

It wasnt my family with the needle....but the same can be said about you,Joel.  You should not have done those things which caused you to be placed into a program.  If you straightened your butt out early on you would never be here complaining about Ned.  Do you honestly believe the readers here think you went to RMA for no reason?  Why not take some responsibility for your actions?



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 04:57:19 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 05:01:30 PM
updated to correct a spelling error...

Quote from: "henrynelson"
I did not know Ned Murray at a CEDU school but have encountered him at one of his other schools. How did he treat students?


Ned was good with the kids and well liked.  He left RMA in 1997 and took an Associate Head Master position at the Baylor School in Tennessee to be closer to his son and family, I believe.  He enjoyed a few years there and then accepted a position as HeadMaster at Episcopal day school in Augusta Ga in 2003.  He was arrested for DUI in 2007 which a subsequent background search revealed he had no prior record.

He continues there today as Head Master.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 05:08:11 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 05:22:17 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 05:31:43 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote
It wasnt my family with the needle....but the same can be said about you,Joel. You should not have done those things which caused you to be placed into a program. If you straightened your butt out early on you would never be here complaining about Ned. Do you honestly believe the readers here think you went to RMA for no reason? Why not take some responsibility for your actions?

This ain't about me going to RMA Whooter, it's about Ned Murray.  Again, Epic Fail.  Play the lay guilt trip with someone else on fornits cause it won't work with me.  You've tried this countless times only this time ya trying this silly Whooter tactic on me.  Move on.

And that’s what I was talking about.  I never brought you up.  I was responding to HenryNelson and you started talking about how bad RMA was.

Why don’t you ever talk about how abusive you were to your family or the reason you were placed in a program.  Why do you always try to make the staff and school be at fault for your mistakes.  I have even seen some kids try to blame their parents for placing them there and never admit they had a part in it if you can believe that.
Answer me this.  Out of all the posts on fornits how many are dedicated to talking about  the abuse the kids placed upon their families or discussing the reasons why they were placed?  You have to admit most of the effort is on trying to make the program the heavy in all of this.

Now if you have something specific that Ned Murray did then spit it out.  But being guilty by association is weak and can be said about anyone.




...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: "Joel"
RAPS > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5IIU&feature=related) (Ned was a part of this like every other RMA Staff)
Smush > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw6u8&feature=related) (Ned like every other staff promoted this crap at RMA)  

Maybe that is why Ned Left the industry... many people here on fornits use to be part of the industry (staff etc.) and then left.  Ned isnt using these techniques now.  Maybe he felt they were ineffective and decided to move on to another industry or try something different.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 05:37:36 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Samara on June 06, 2010, 06:53:40 PM
Interesting, Whooter, that you keep putting accountability on kids. How about those "poor parents" who have to send their terrible teen away? Oh yes, I remember, you got to keep the parents on board to maximize profits.

The fact is very few posters (in spite of your condescension) would exclaim to be the poster child for Main Street America. (And does it really exist?)  My argument is whether you were just different, a pain in the ass, or serious trouble, why would you put your child in a program?  The ones on this forum seem to share common "treatment"  modalities that include the following:

1. Attack therapy and persistent public humiliation (how does this develop self esteem?)

2. Total lack of "therapeutic" and interpersonal boundaries (important for trust and self respect)

3. Sustained level of chronic anxiety due to living in an environment of unrealistic social protocols and regular intervals of  public degradation

4. One sized fits all therapy that ignores the individual needs of each student. No individual treatment.

5. Insular cultic social paradigms that promotes intense interpersonal relationships and social paradigms that does NOT work in the "real world"

6. Staff who are unaccredited, unaccountable, inculcated, and/or projecting their own neuroses on residents.   (If my Dad heard staff confessions, I would have been out in a heart beat. Really sick, twisted stuff.  How are we supposed to feel safe much less respectful of these people?)

7. Regular participation in 1-7 day psychodramas that manipulate and distort the sense of self and infuse cult "values" and "thinking"

8. Regular immersion in 1-7 day experiential/psychodramas that create an atmosphere of overwhelming intensity and false sense of meaning that can NEVER be duplicated outside the cult. Thus, when you leave, you constantly seek a level of intensity in experiences and relationships that is not healthy or normative.  Just by nature of its intensity, everything is rendered meaningless comparatively.

9. No preparation for the real world.  You are stripped bare, infused with social schematics that do not exist "outside," and are often unprepared academically with false or inflated transcripts.  

10. Low self esteem because everything is "dirty" - this is especially harmful when the things labeled dirty are normative feelings and behaviors.  For example, I can't smile at a male peer my age, but I can sit on the lap and be stroked by an adult male staff member.   This is just one example.

11. Students level up by badgering and bullying others, participating, leading, and powerhousing in attack therapy.

12. Arbitrary, bizarre, petty rules designed not for practical compliance but to break you down. There is no way you can follow them ALL the time.  Another way to shame and control students.

13. Total insularity from outside world, all contact monitored, no true advocacy for the child. Threatened with deportation to a very frightening lock down facility if you complain/lack compliance even when you are NOT a criminal, an addict, or a threat.

14. Conflict of interests. Staff will create dishonest family dynamics to divide the family and retain power over the child. Also, parents often not held accountable because you don't piss off the bank. I can tell you right now the staff lied about me to my parents and my parents about me. My family and I all agree on this now comparing notes later.  The same phrases and techniques were used with other students and families. One power staff did admit to me that lying is sometimes part of the job.

15. From the outset, the youth  resident is criminalized, already characterized as "bad" -- this is simply a bad place to start.  You can't grow if you've already been stigmatized and painted with a very side brush.  


I am skeptical of all programs because so many employ these techniques on a systemic level. I am skeptical of programs because I do not want to insert  middle management in the relationship between myself and my children. I do not accept programs because I do not want an unknown, packaged entity to takeover "the voice" of my children. I do not accept programs because I do not want them to feel degraded, broken, and replaced by some Stepford version of themselves.

No matter what struggles children might face, these are not the values and experiences that will serve them best.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 07:21:32 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Joel"
RAPS > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5IIU&feature=related) (Ned was a part of this like every other RMA Staff)
Smush > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw6u8&feature=related) (Ned like every other staff promoted this crap at RMA)  

Maybe that is why Ned Left the industry... many people here on fornits use to be part of the industry (staff etc.) and then left.  Ned isnt using these techniques now.  Maybe he felt they were ineffective and decided to move on to another industry or try something different.



...


So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: DannyB II on June 06, 2010, 07:23:24 PM
:shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: DannyB II on June 06, 2010, 07:28:27 PM
:shamrock:  :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Interesting, Whooter, that you keep putting accountability on kids. How about those "poor parents" who have to send their terrible teen away? Oh yes, I remember, you got to keep the parents on board to maximize profits.

I can tell by your post and lack of empathy for the parents that you have never had an at-risk teen to raise.  But unless you walk in their shoes you will never know.   I think accountability should be placed in the correct place that is all.  The child should share their part of the responsibility.  I would suggest that parents avoid the places that you describe.  I couldn’t imagine a parent choosing a place like that for their child, wow!
The programs that I am use to seeing  have treatment modalities as the following:


1.  Provide students with the necessary structure and time to internalize positive change.

2.  Individual Therapy

3.  Allowing time for each child to experience a stable educational community.

4.  Fosters personal growth.

5.  Help the child to form a healthy self expression and self esteem.

 6.  Inspire children to attain and reach for academic excellence.

7.  Teaches individual responsibility and service to others.

8.  Get parents involved to help rebuild mutually respect and responsible relationships.

9.  Realize true healthy growth and assist in the creation of a positive future for each student and their family.

10.  A program which has demonstrated better than an 80% success rate where 100% of the graduates are accepted at the college of their choice.

11.  Transitional programs to insure a seamless transition back to the childs families environment and provide therapeutic support.

Looking at your list and then looking at mine it is easy to see that not all programs are the same.  I suggest that parents contact other parents who have had kids who have graduated from the program.  This gives them an opportunity to screen for problem programs like you have described, Samara.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 07:33:09 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 07:37:19 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Joel"
RAPS > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5IIU&feature=related) (Ned was a part of this like every other RMA Staff)
Smush > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uzkg0mw6u8&feature=related) (Ned like every other staff promoted this crap at RMA)  

Maybe that is why Ned Left the industry... many people here on fornits use to be part of the industry (staff etc.) and then left.  Ned isnt using these techniques now.  Maybe he felt they were ineffective and decided to move on to another industry or try something different.



...


So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.



Again, same question.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: DannyB II on June 06, 2010, 07:42:57 PM
Quote
Quote from: "Joel"
Danny you don't have a whole lot of wiggle room to call someone sick considering your rant the last couple of days and personal message to Antigen.  

I will say one last thing about Ned Murray.   He yelled at students in raps, allowed students to yell at one another in raps, ran propheets where students received minimal food/sleep/water and pushed the CEDU RMA culture onto other children.  Henceforth [brainwashing].  Ned promoted inappropriate boundaries via. smushing.  He would participate in these activities with students.  There are allot of people who don't know what this is.  Students would lay their head on another students part of the body.  It took me 15 years to wake up to the fact what a kool aid factory was.  If anyone sees blown away in idaho, tell him I said hello.  

Joel

PG 41

You are right that is why I pulled out of this thread. I missed the point.

Danny
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: DannyB II on June 06, 2010, 07:47:28 PM
Quote
Joel wrote:
Danny you don't have a whole lot of wiggle room to call someone sick considering your rant the last couple of days.

Your judgment of me is not fair at all. Why?????? Because if my "rant" as you call it was advocating what you and your friends were for, I'd be a hero like Felicio.

Quote
Joel wrote
and personal message to Antigen.

My conversation with Antigen is none of your business.
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 07:53:19 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 08:22:39 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Samara on June 06, 2010, 08:27:49 PM
Whooter, it defies logic that you say you can't imagine parents who would send their children to the places I describe. Well, I agree it defies logic. But it is also common. The brochures look good. The marketing looks good. Parents are worn out and tired and frankly, many just don't give a damn... I know many, many, many students who 20 years later have PTSD and their parents still insist the programs "saved" them.  Denial.  I split from the program and was still so brainwashed I probably would have done a pro-program PSA for years afterward.  Many "successful" graduate students would say the same. It takes a while for the kool aid to wear off. You divest so much of yourself that you can't accept it was all for naught.

And do not condescend to tell me that I can't fathom what these parents are going through. Yes, I can.

And you know what? Some are desperate and terrified. But some are totally self involved schmucks who just warehouse kids after they f*ck them up the way other people outsource IT jobs. And so many kids were sent to these programs at the behest of their lovely new step parents.

The accountability argument - parent vs. student - does not factor into the acceptance of absuive programs.

My program spouted many of the same components your's did... Doesn't make it true.

The issue for me is why you keep pretending this issue is isolated? Do you go on rape forums and tell the women there that it really didn't happen except in a few isolated cases?
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 08:34:03 PM
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 08:44:54 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Whooter, it defies logic that you say you can't imagine parents who would send their children to the places I describe. Well, I agree it defies logic. But it is also common. The brochures look good. The marketing looks good. Parents are worn out and tired and frankly, many just don't give a damn... I know many, many, many students who 20 years later have PTSD and their parents still insist the programs "saved" them. Denial. I split from the program and was still so brainwashed I probably would have done a pro-program PSA for years afterward. Many "successful" graduate students would say the same. It takes a while for the kool aid to wear off. You divest so much of yourself that you can't accept it was all for naught.

And do not condescend to tell me that I can't fathom what these parents are going through. Yes, I can.
So  we should agree that the parents like myself can easily understand what the kids are going through?

Quote
And you know what? Some are desperate and terrified. But some are totally self involved schmucks who just warehouse kids after they f*ck them up the way other people outsource IT jobs. And so many kids were sent to these programs at the behest of their lovely new step parents.
Yes, there are all types of parents that cover the whole spectrum.

Quote
The accountability argument - parent vs. student - does not factor into the acceptance of absuive programs.
No it doesn’t, I agree.  The accountability I was speaking of was the events leading up to placement.  Prior to treatment.

Quote
My program spouted many of the same components your's did... Doesn't make it true.
Exactly, that is why it is a good idea for parents to speak with other parents and kids who went through the program.  You shouldn’t choose a place based on their brochure.

Quote
The issue for me is why you keep pretending this issue is isolated? Do you go on rape forums and tell the women there that it really didn't happen except in a few isolated cases?
But if they were raped by a teacher in a public school they should be told that not all teachers are rapists.  If their rape was an isolated case they should be told so that they can begin to feel safe again reemerging back into their society.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 08:53:14 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 09:11:10 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why?

I am not saying we need to develop a vantage point anywhere.  What I meant is if you just saw the Chemo effects and that was all you were exposed to then you may conclude that the child was being abused.  If you stepped back and saw the sick child walk into the hospital and then visited her a year later (without seeing the process she went through) and saw her healthy you would conclude that the process was not abusive or hurtful to the child.

Quote
We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?

I don’t think we are going to skip any step.  I am not aware of any Defined standards for Therapeutic schools as far as their modalities or processes go.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 09:21:03 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...



You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.

I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.



.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: DannyB II on June 06, 2010, 09:22:20 PM
Quote
Quote from: "Joel"
Quote
My conversation with Antigen is none of your business.

Dano it was fair game when it was posted in the said forum.  It was open season on you, learn from it and never send another message like that to the mods again.  You still got that target on your back Danny.   :rofl:

It is open season on me, never send another message like that, I have target on my back.
Joel read this thread it is so apropos to what you are posting here.
So you felt I was abusive so therefore you come back with abuse. Your rallying with other staff members here to attack me. You purposely acknowledge this too.
 
Joel I will send whatever message to the mods I feel like. You really can't be serious with this message. Why do I feel I am constantly dealing with kids here........lol.

Danny
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 09:24:09 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake. I guess they would be viewed as abusive. But would they know it themselves? Maybe they feel they are doing good.

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you? Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child? Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription? Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her. It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe. You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children. I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...



You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.

I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.



.


Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why?

I am not saying we need to develop a vantage point anywhere.  What I meant is if you just saw the Chemo effects and that was all you were exposed to then you may conclude that the child was being abused.  If you stepped back and saw the sick child walk into the hospital and then visited her a year later (without seeing the process she went through) and saw her healthy you would conclude that the process was not abusive or hurtful to the child.

Quote
We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?

I don’t think we are going to skip any step.  I am not aware of any Defined standards for Therapeutic schools as far as their modalities or processes go.



...


Just so we're clear
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 09:41:52 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.

Sorry, Awake, but I don’t agree with you.  I think it is a good discussion and clearly on topic of determining if staff can be considered abusive if the process is abusive.  
I think you are having a difficult time understanding what I mean by the vantage point.  I think you could break any process down and find pieces to be abusive.  But does that mean the person is abusive or the process itself is abusive?

If the child is helped in the end then can we look back and say the program/process was abusive?  Was it helpful?  If it saved his life can the process be viewed as negative?

So I think it is helpful to view the topic from many vantage points.

Quote
I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.

 I usually don’t pick apart peoples posts myself for flaws unless there is some value in the clarification which would lead to a better discussion.  If there is something you think I am missing then please clarify.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 09:56:34 PM
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.



Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Paul St. John on June 06, 2010, 09:56:35 PM
Quote

Joel I will send whatever message to the mods I feel like.

And Joel, I, or anyone else will respond to it however we like


Quote
You really can't be serious with this message. Why do I feel I am constantly dealing with kids here........lol.

Danny

Perhaps, because in your mind, people doing what they actually believe to be right, actually caring about things, and even the mere idea of having a genuine liking and respect for others that last more then a half hour, is very childish notion.

You also seem to think that making sense is a very naive idea reserved for the young.

If I wanted to, there were many times where I think that I could have had you crying, right where you sit, with the least amount of effort.  So many times, I resisted going in for the kill.
Stop being a dick!

Paul
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Paul St. John on June 06, 2010, 10:07:08 PM
Quote
If the child is helped in the end then can we look back and say the program/process was abusive?

Only if it was....

Did it involve abuse?  then "Yes.  It was abusive."
You do not need to look any further then that.
If I attack you one day, and it changes your life, and makes you a stronger person, I still attacked you.  



Quote
Was it helpful? If it saved his life can the process be viewed as negative?

The process can be and would be viewed as negative, so long as it was.  If it somehow, on occasion bears positive results, of course, we view the results, as positive, but the process, if negative, is still negative.

I think one of the most basic concepts in the American culture, is the realization that the ends do not justify the means.

Would you agree with the statement that the end do not justify the means?


Paul
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 10:16:46 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.

Sometimes there are no defined answers to questions in conversations.  If there were then the conversation would be short.  In situations where there are many viewpoints there is an opportunity to learn something new and forge into new territory.  Listening to others point of view is one way to grow and learn.
You shouldn't sit back and wait for people to provide you with answers, awake, you should express your own opinions and hope people learn from them and that you learn something in return from others.
I think you made a few good points on the subject and it is an interesting topic which I would hope others would state their opinion also.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Samara on June 06, 2010, 10:44:17 PM
Process and people, Whooter.  There were staff I liked, mainly because I almost identified with them as residents, they were put through an "induction" process that was completely therapeutically unsound.  The nicer, less threatening staff were just a relief for me. But. They still upheld a bad program. And I didn't need to hear their cop outs about rubbing fecal matter all over themselves, among other things.  (Seriously, when I went to CEDU, I had never even heard of bestiality etc.)  Many of the young staff who came weren't healthy emotionally. Nice, maybe, but not healthy. Many came straight out of EST and Lifespring - promoting experientials and "modalities" that are completely inappropriate for teens.

New staff were forced to cop out and share every part of their history to a group of students. They had to share everything from painful experiences, such as rape, to deviant or criminal acts, to abuse to total strangers. "Sharing your story" did not include happy or positive aspects of your life. It was all about the painful or the negative. Everything outside of Cedu was "bad."  It was not done in a "I overcame it and so can you" fashion. It was done with shame and pain. I don't think it is appropriate for staff to give detailed mastubatory histories to kids, much less the other tales.... (At least masturbation is normal. But it is NOT normal to sit down with people you don't know and talk about masturbating.)

I needed people to look up to and respect and act as mentors.  

I don't walk up to strangers and say, "Hello. My name is Samara, and I was raped when I was 15. Before that.... and then there was the time that... and my uncle... by the way, my favorite way to masturbate is... "
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.

Sometimes there are no defined answers to questions in conversations.  If there were then the conversation would be short.  In situations where there are many viewpoints there is an opportunity to learn something new and forge into new territory.  Listening to others point of view is one way to grow and learn.
You shouldn't sit back and wait for people to provide you with answers, awake, you should express your own opinions and hope people learn from them and that you learn something in return from others.
I think you made a few good points on the subject and it is an interesting topic which I would hope others would state their opinion also.



...

I never expected you to have a defined answer for the topic we are discussing, just be truthful. There is no defined answer, and that constitutes a reason these institutiions should not ethically be able to operate.  We don't have an acceptable standard for what constitutes abuse, and therefore who to prosecute in the abusive action, and if we can't enforce it we should not act. This was the context we were discussing, what is your excuse for why we are 'operating'  before we have clear standards for what is considered a proper, ethical application?


Quote from: "Awake"
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.



Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake. I guess they would be viewed as abusive. But would they know it themselves? Maybe they feel they are doing good.

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you? Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child? Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription? Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her. It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe. You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children. I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 10:55:56 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Process and people, Whooter.  There were staff I liked, mainly because I almost identified with them as residents, they were put through an "induction" process that was completely therapeutically unsound.  The nicer, less threatening staff were just a relief for me. But. They still upheld a bad program. And I didn't need to hear their cop outs about rubbing fecal matter all over themselves, among other things.  (Seriously, when I went to CEDU, I had never even heard of bestiality etc.)  Many of the young staff who came weren't healthy emotionally. Nice, maybe, but not healthy. Many came straight out of EST and Lifespring - promoting experientials and "modalities" that are completely inappropriate for teens.

New staff were forced to cop out and share every part of their history to a group of students. They had to share everything from painful experiences, such as rape, to deviant or criminal acts, to abuse to total strangers. "Sharing your story" did not include happy or positive aspects of your life. It was all about the painful or the negative. Everything outside of Cedu was "bad."  It was not done in a "I overcame it and so can you" fashion. It was done with shame and pain. I don't think it is appropriate for staff to give detailed mastubatory histories to kids, much less the other tales.... (At least masturbation is normal. But it is NOT normal to sit down with people you don't know and talk about masturbating.)

I needed people to look up to and respect and act as mentors.  

I don't walk up to strangers and say, "Hello. My name is Samara, and I was raped when I was 15. Before that.... and then there was the time that... and my uncle... by the way, my favorite way to masturbate is... "




Seriously.... it was a major concern of staff that we didn't mastrubate before or after propheets and people copped out to it all over the place.    This was an accepted therapeutic institution her in the good ol U S of A?  


This question involves U2 Whooter, who do we sue for abuse? The staff, or the program?



.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 11:10:56 PM
Quote from: "Awake"


This question involves U2 Whooter, who do we sue for abuse? The staff, or the program?



.

My opinion:

If the abuse was defined in the process then you would sue the program.  The staff would be free to walk.

If the abuse was done outside the defined process (staff member took it upon him/herself) then you would sue the staff.  But since the staff worked for the school you would always include the school on the lawsuit because they are the ones with the money and since they were the employers they could be held liable.



...
Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2010, 11:18:57 PM
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 11:20:10 PM
Quote from: "Samara"
Process and people, Whooter.  There were staff I liked, mainly because I almost identified with them as residents, they were put through an "induction" process that was completely therapeutically unsound.  The nicer, less threatening staff were just a relief for me. But. They still upheld a bad program. And I didn't need to hear their cop outs about rubbing fecal matter all over themselves, among other things.  (Seriously, when I went to CEDU, I had never even heard of bestiality etc.)  Many of the young staff who came weren't healthy emotionally. Nice, maybe, but not healthy. Many came straight out of EST and Lifespring - promoting experientials and "modalities" that are completely inappropriate for teens.

New staff were forced to cop out and share every part of their history to a group of students. They had to share everything from painful experiences, such as rape, to deviant or criminal acts, to abuse to total strangers. "Sharing your story" did not include happy or positive aspects of your life. It was all about the painful or the negative. Everything outside of Cedu was "bad."  It was not done in a "I overcame it and so can you" fashion. It was done with shame and pain. I don't think it is appropriate for staff to give detailed mastubatory histories to kids, much less the other tales.... (At least masturbation is normal. But it is NOT normal to sit down with people you don't know and talk about masturbating.)

I needed people to look up to and respect and act as mentors.  

I don't walk up to strangers and say, "Hello. My name is Samara, and I was raped when I was 15. Before that.... and then there was the time that... and my uncle... by the way, my favorite way to masturbate is... "

Thats pretty bad.  I am sorry you had to experience something like that.  I cant see an value in doing that.  Thats a thousand miles away from what is happening now.  At least with the programs I am familiar with and the people I have spoken to.

From what you described or how I read it I dont see the staff as being responsible for the abuse even though they were being abusive.  The staff may have felt they were helping you .  They seemed to be as much a victim as you were.  The school cultivated this environment and ultimately were responsible for the outcome.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Awake on June 06, 2010, 11:27:43 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


This question involves U2 Whooter, who do we sue for abuse? The staff, or the program?



.

My opinion:

If the abuse was defined in the process then you would sue the program.  The staff would be free to walk.

If the abuse was done outside the defined process (staff member took it upon him/herself) then you would sue the staff.  But since the staff worked for the school you would always include the school on the lawsuit because they are the ones with the money and since they were the employers they could be held liable.



...



That's nice you have an opinion, but do you constitute an authority on how a program is to operate ethically? Don't you think this standard should be incorporated before these unstitutions begin practice? Again, the original argument.



Quote from: "Awake"
I’m not arguing with you. People are free to decide whether you have any merit in this conversation or not. This was the original context of the conversation that you don't have an answer for.



Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.
That’s actually a really good question, Awake. I guess they would be viewed as abusive. But would they know it themselves? Maybe they feel they are doing good.

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you? Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child? Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription? Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.



Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"


What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her. It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe. You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children. I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...



So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Samara on June 06, 2010, 11:34:09 PM
I wish I could say these practices were limited but theyw ere endemic... They were OF the program, committed BY the staff... and I know ten years later, same practices still in effect.  CEDU closed... but some of its practioners started new programs. I am not optimistic about those.  

It's like Prison.  High rate of recidivism. The longer you stay the more new "tricks" you learn... you also have a harder time letting go of institutional mentality.
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 06, 2010, 11:40:05 PM
Quote from: "Awake"
[



That's nice you have an opinion, but do you constitute an authority on how a program is to operate ethically? Don't you think this standard should be incorporated before these unstitutions begin practice? Again, the original argument.


I don’t think this is the original argument.  But I will go with it.

I think that there should be standards on how the TTI should conduct itself.  I believe the industry evolved over time and found themselves outside of defined boundaries.. they cant fit cleanly into any one category i.e boarding school because kids don’t go for 4 years…..  treatment center … they don’t have doctors on staff and no one is committed to long term care….  So each program is autonomous and defines its own modality and standards.

If states could define a new category they could enforce better regulation but as it stands now the programs apply and get waivers so that they don’t need to be held accountable to all the red tape which is required by other institutions.



...
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Ursus on June 06, 2010, 11:50:12 PM
Many of these programs, though not all, advertise themselves as "behavioral health" institutions. Within the mental health field, of which behavioral health is a subspecialty, there is a code of conduct which, to my mind at least, should preclude a lot of this TC mumbo jumbo, namely:

"First, Do No Harm."[/list]
Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 12:04:02 AM
Quote from: "Ursus"
Many of these programs, though not all, advertise themselves as "behavioral health" institutions. Within the mental health field, of which behavioral health is a subspecialty, there is a code of conduct which, to my mind at least, should preclude a lot of this TC mumbo jumbo, namely:

    "First, Do No Harm."[/list]

    I think we can all agree here.  I dont think any program wants to make the child worse off than they already are.



    ...
    Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
    Post by: Samara on June 07, 2010, 12:19:35 AM
    It seems logical to me, then, that TBS's wouldn't rely on attack therapy, coerced disclosures and spontaneous, chronic degradation as the foundation for treatment.

    And, yet... logic defied.
    Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
    Post by: Awake on June 07, 2010, 12:29:00 AM
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Many of these programs, though not all, advertise themselves as "behavioral health" institutions. Within the mental health field, of which behavioral health is a subspecialty, there is a code of conduct which, to my mind at least, should preclude a lot of this TC mumbo jumbo, namely:

      "First, Do No Harm."[/list]

      I think we can all agree here.  I dont think any program wants to make the child worse off than they already are.



      ...


      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.


      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 10:49:23 AM
      Quote from: "Awake"


      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.


      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?

      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 07, 2010, 11:24:38 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"


      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.


      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?

      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.


      I

      I never wanted  to "mold and shape" may children...I wanted to teach them my values, show them the world, show them the opportunities ,but I let them decide ...because in the end, it is their life, I do not own them....And they always had a say...sometimes my answer would be no and they had a hard time to accept it. Sometimes they did the opposite of I would hope and had to bear the consequences, but isn´t that a part of growing up? How else would they learn? How else would they become responsible for their own life, if you never give them the opportunity to decide? You cannot shelter them for 18 years of their life , you have to accept they will make mistakes. Hardest thing ever....
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 12:24:44 PM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"


      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.


      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?

      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.


      I

      I never wanted  to "mold and shape" may children...I wanted to teach them my values, show them the world, show them the opportunities ,but I let them decide ...because in the end, it is their life, I do not own them....And they always had a say...sometimes my answer would be no and they had a hard time to accept it. Sometimes they did the opposite of I would hope and had to bear the consequences, but isn´t that a part of growing up? How else would they learn? How else would they become responsible for their own life, if you never give them the opportunity to decide? You cannot shelter them for 18 years of their life , you have to accept they will make mistakes. Hardest thing ever....


      I think we agree here, for the most part,matushka, (maybe the wording you disagree with) your children were molded and shaped by what you exposed them to, your values and the places in the world that you chose to show them.  Early on in their life they have little or no say i.e. you change the diaper when you feel it is needed.  You feed them what you feel is needed no negotiations.  As they get older they get a little bit more freedom and choice in their lives but the parents still have the final decision.  We can give the children the choice to brush their teeth before or after their bath, but they still have to bathe and brush their teeth.  So we do agree that the children are part of the process……..Finally by age 18 they have hopefully been taught to be independent and are making healthy choices and they fly the coop.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 07, 2010, 12:25:45 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.
      Our duty to mold and shape... hmm.

      I take it you believe in Play-doh parenting, Whooter?  :seg:


      (http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Play-Doh_Original_Canister.jpg/200px-Play-Doh_Original_Canister.jpg)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 07, 2010, 12:30:36 PM
      Quote
      Maruska wrote:
      I never wanted  to "mold and shape" may children...I wanted to teach them my values, show them the world, show them the opportunities ,but I let them decide ...because in the end, it is their life, I do not own them....And they always had a say...sometimes my answer would be no and they had a hard time to accept it. Sometimes they did the opposite of I would hope and had to bear the consequences, but isn´t that a part of growing up? How else would they learn? How else would they become responsible for their own life, if you never give them the opportunity to decide? You cannot shelter them for 18 years of their life , you have to accept they will make mistakes. Hardest thing ever....  

      Danny wrote:
      Thats molding and shaping why, because you were over seeing the entire process from birth till about 17 0r 18 yrs. of age, it is called loving your kids. If they dirfted to far in the negative you would have stepped in, there is no way you stand there and let them slide. Yes we present are morals, values and show them the principles that guide us, no my children did not want all my values nor did they care for my opinions at times but there is no way I just stand by and watch them make self destructive decisions one after another.
      I laughed when you said that when the time came for "NO" that your kids had a hard time accepting it. Man I still have a hard time accepting it myself. Anyway great conversation just wanted to add my two cents.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 12:37:26 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.
      Our duty to mold and shape... hmm.

      I take it you believe in Play-doh parenting, Whooter?  :seg:


      (http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2a/Play-Doh_Original_Canister.jpg/200px-Play-Doh_Original_Canister.jpg)

      Ha,Ha,Ha   We went though a lot of that stuff as I recall.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 07, 2010, 01:10:52 PM
      DB: I didn't write the mold and shape post. I think it was Maruska.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 07, 2010, 02:46:37 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Ned was good with the kids and well liked.  He left RMA in 1997 and took an Associate Head Master position at the Baylor School in Tennessee to be closer to his son and family, I believe.  He enjoyed a few years there and then accepted a position as HeadMaster at Episcopal day school in Augusta Ga in 2003.  He was arrested for DUI in 2007 which a subsequent background search revealed he had no prior record.

      He continues there today as HeadMaster.



      And you're still insisting that you're merely an "interested parent".   You just sort of stumble across all this detailed information, right?  You have no financial association or gain, directly or indirectly, with the TTI...right?


      And please, just this once...spare me the "we all profit from it one way or another" bullshit. You know precisely what I'm talking about and that's not it.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 07, 2010, 03:33:23 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Samara"
      DB: I didn't write the mold and shape post. I think it was Maruska.

      My apologies.....
      Danny
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 07, 2010, 03:35:12 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"

      I take it you believe in Play-doh parenting, Whooter?  :seg:

      or if you off load it to someone else you could call it... "Pay Dough" parenting!
      Title: play-doh vs. pay dough parenting
      Post by: Ursus on June 07, 2010, 05:39:42 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.
      Our duty to mold and shape... hmm.

      I take it you believe in Play-doh parenting, Whooter?  :seg:
      or if you off load it to someone else you could call it... "Pay Dough" parenting!
      Yep. Sounds just like a program to me! Folks who get tired of all that molding and shaping can just pay somebody else to play with their Play-doh.

      Problem is, your kid's psyche isn't really like Play-doh, is it?

       :clown:
      Title: Re: play-doh vs. pay dough parenting
      Post by: Whooter on June 07, 2010, 05:50:23 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.
      Our duty to mold and shape... hmm.

      I take it you believe in Play-doh parenting, Whooter?  :seg:
      or if you off load it to someone else you could call it... "Pay Dough" parenting!
      Yep. Sounds just like a program to me! Folks who get tired of all that molding and shaping can just pay somebody else to play with their Play-doh.

      Problem is, your kid's psyche isn't really like Play-doh, is it?

       :clown:

      Are you okay?  Lighten up Ursus.  People mold and shape their children every day.  Its called parenting…. It is a positive thing, its not abusive.  The play-doh/Pay-Dough thing was a play on words.  It was intended to be humorous.... a little comic relief on a very serious forum.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 05:18:09 AM
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...


      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point  for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 06:55:40 AM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 08:42:03 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...
      Agreed  they don’t.  Each parent has a different approach, but the majority of parents agree on a common concept of parenting, protect the child's self esteem and allow them the room to grow into themselves and at the same time establish and enforce healthy boundaries.


      Quote
      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?
      I would say the breaking point was when she decided that she didn’t want an education, felt she would fail and then ultimately refused to go to school.  We even had teachers come to the house to work with her.  She had a healthy self esteem her whole life and then suddenly it dropped off and she obviously needed help.  All our local options failed to bring her around.
      She agreed to wilderness and then hesitantly agreed to ASR when faced with other realistic options.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 08, 2010, 10:20:23 AM
      Whoo:

      1. How did she suddenly lose her self esteem?

      2. What was your accountability in her problems as a parent? (Or does your daughter bear the onus of the blame?)

      3. What program did YOU attend to fix your parenting issues?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 10:30:59 AM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Whoo:

      1. How did she suddenly lose her self esteem?

      She didnt suddenly loose it.

      Quote
      2. What was your accountability in her problems as a parent? (Or does your daughter bear the onus of the blame?)

      If you had ever been part of a close nit family you would know that when one member is in trouble the whole family unit is in trouble.  Blaming people does not help in solving problems.

      Quote
      3. What program did YOU attend to fix your parenting issues?

      It was a different one than the one you attended to address your manners.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 10:35:20 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...
      Agreed  they don’t.  Each parent has a different approach, but the majority of parents agree on a common concept of parenting, protect the child's self esteem and allow them the room to grow into themselves and at the same time establish and enforce healthy boundaries.


      Quote
      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?
      I would say the breaking point was when she decided that she didn’t want an education, felt she would fail and then ultimately refused to go to school.  We even had teachers come to the house to work with her.  She had a healthy self esteem her whole life and then suddenly it dropped off and she obviously needed help.  All our local options failed to bring her around.
      She agreed to wilderness and then hesitantly agreed to ASR when faced with other realistic options.



      ...


      Why did she refuse to go to school? How old was she at that time?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 10:46:35 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"


      Why did she refuse to go to school? How old was she at that time?

      We really didn’t know.  We tried changing schools and had her schooled at home but she just lost interest.  She felt she couldn’t succeed or do well.  She didn’t feel like she was smart enough.

      She was about 13, I think, when we first noticed her down turn.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 08, 2010, 10:57:49 AM
      Whooter: Who hijacked your post? The person who responded last it not the same I am used to addressing.  I can tell by semantics and style.

      Anyway, you did explain to Maruska that your daughter's self esteem suddenly dropped. In the post after mine, you challenged that assertion.  So, I am a bit confused.

      As far as blame is concerned, I've read other posts of your's that seem to indicate the onus falls on the child.  I am simply challenging that notion.  It is my experience that the parents don't really take an in-depth role in recovering the family besides outsourcing their kids. Also, parents go back home to their comfortable beds and lives. Not too many at CEDU seemed invested other than on family day.  They set up baby demos of raps/propheets, but they were diluted and for show only. Totally inauthentic.  

      It doesn't matter anyway because as an adult, you are responsible for yourself regardless of past experiences.

      Anyway, I got shipped off to CEDU for similar reasons. I would not attend school. I didn't fail out either. I also had some traumatic experiences with predators.   It is difficult for me to talk about that. But CEDU only intensified the trauma and distrust.

      When I left CEDU, I found a school that was private, with courses taught by college professors. The whole culture (comparative to traditional private or public schools) was different and I thrived. Unfortunately, most people can't afford that.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 11:11:45 AM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Anyway, you did explain to Maruska that your daughter's self esteem suddenly dropped. In the post after mine, you challenged that assertion. So, I am a bit confused.
      My bad, I did say it suddenly dropped off as I read back.  It occurred over several months time.

      Quote
      As far as blame is concerned, I've read other posts of your's that seem to indicate the onus falls on the child. I am simply challenging that notion. It is my experience that the parents don't really take an in-depth role in recovering the family besides outsourcing their kids. Also, parents go back home to their comfortable beds and lives. Not too many at CEDU seemed invested other than on family day. They set up baby demos of raps/propheets, but they were diluted and for show only. Totally inauthentic.

      It doesn't matter anyway because as an adult, you are responsible for yourself regardless of past experiences.

      Anyway, I got shipped off to CEDU for similar reasons. I would not attend school. I didn't fail out either. I also had some traumatic experiences with predators. It is difficult for me to talk about that. But CEDU only intensified the trauma and distrust.

      When I left CEDU, I found a school that was private, with courses taught by college professors. The whole culture (comparative to traditional private or public schools) was different and I thrived. Unfortunately, most people can't afford that.
      Every situation is different.  In some cases the child needs to step up or have their feet held to the fire.  In other cases the parents dropped the ball and when they finally realized it they were too late to help them.  But my position has always been the responsibility is shared between the parents and the child.

      I am glad it eventually worked out for you.  My daughter did well too in college after she got out.  She was much more mature by then and had regained her self esteem.




      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 11:22:25 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"


      Why did she refuse to go to school? How old was she at that time?

      We really didn’t know.  We tried changing schools and had her schooled at home but she just lost interest.  She felt she couldn’t succeed or do well.  She didn’t feel like she was smart enough.

      She was about 13, I think, when we first noticed her down turn.



      ...


      Lost interest? at 13? LOL..many children HATE school at that age...that is quite normal ...many children say they do not want to go to school, they want to eat ice cream and watch TV and hang out with friends ...yet you are the father who says: get your little butt to school darling, because I say so! You know? Actually be dad!


      Sorry, I do not want to say you did not have problems with your child,but I feel there must be much more to you story.I mean if that was your main reason for sending your daughter away, I feel really sorry for her...and you really should appologize to her !
      Be honest: did you never doubt your desicion?

      Why was your self esteem so low that you thought you could not handle your own child?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 11:38:06 AM
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 11:58:22 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Lost interest? at 13? LOL..many children HATE school at that age...that is quite normal ...many children say they do not want to go to school, they want to eat ice cream and watch TV and hang out with friends ...yet you are the father who says: get your little butt to school darling, because I say so! You know? Actually be dad!
      Lol, I know I did too.  I think it was the 6 th grade for me, but my dad straightened my butt out very quickly.  But I never thought of getting on the bus and then sneaking out the back and hanging out at the park all day.

      Quote
      You know, sorry, I do not want to say you did not have problems with your child.
      Of course you don’t because that would mean that you prejudge people.

      Quote
      ..but I feel there must be much more to you story....I mean if that was your main problem for sending your daughter away, I feel really sorry for her...and you really should appologize to her !
      If you read back through the posts the question that was asked of me was:  “what was the breaking point”.  I never said the only problem was her not going to school.  The schooling issue was what tipped the scales.  Do I want to discuss every detail of what lead up to her placement on here?  Not really.

      Quote
      Be honest: did you never doubt your desicion?
      I think every parent doubts or second guesses their decisions.  But in hind sight it was a good decision for her to enter into ASR.  She did really well there and regained her self confidence and learned that she can do anything she wants if she puts her mind to it and that is exactly what she did.
      Quote
      Why was your self esteem so low that you thought you could not handle your own child?
      If you ever bothered to meet the types of parents who will move mountains and are willing to mortgage their financial futures to help their children you would learn very quickly that they suffer from something! (lol) but definitely not low self esteem.




      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 12:05:16 PM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.

      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 01:00:16 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.


      I have.  An extremely "at risk" child.  Somehow, I managed to do it without sending her off to strangers.

      Quote
      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.


      Again...I don't think anyone here is saying that no child ever needs help.  What we ARE saying is that a lot of parents seem to just accept sending them away as the norm, rather than the exception.  You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything.  You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.  

      Any kind of "treatment" that would involved separating the child from the family for such an extended period of time alone would warrant it be used as an absolute LAST resort and even then you've got to make sure it's real  help with qualified people....not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery.  The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.


      Now, bring on the minimization, justification and super spin that we're oh-so accustomed to by now.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 01:41:47 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

      I have. An extremely "at risk" child. Somehow, I managed to do it without sending her off to strangers.

      But was yours super extremely at –risk?  Lol.  See what I mean?   If you look at the numbers very few kids ever need the services of a program.  
      Quotes from parents who deny their kids were at-risk:
      “Oh, my son wasn’t at risk he just ended up in jail because the judge was an ass hole”

      “Oh, my kid lives on the streets because we feel the kid should always have a say in how they want to live”

      “Oh, my kid beats up people and robs them because he doesn’t want to work.  I don’t think we should judge him for that… besides he isn’t at risk, his victims are”
      lol

      Quote
      Again...I don't think anyone here is saying that no child ever needs help. What we ARE saying is that a lot of parents seem to just accept sending them away as the norm, rather than the exception. You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.

      Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.

      Quote
      Any kind of "treatment" that would involved separating the child from the family for such an extended period of time alone would warrant it be used as an absolute LAST resort and even then you've got to make sure it's real help with qualified people.

      Exactly, most parents that I know of have done that.  I think the key is qualified people (we agree here!) and that parents should speak with other parents to help insure the program is a good fit for their daughter.


      Quote
      ...not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery. The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.

      Those were awful places.  We are all lucky they closed them down.


      Quote
      Now, bring on the minimization, justification and super spin that we're oh-so accustomed to by now.

      This is a great discussion,  If you don’t like people responding why post?



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 08, 2010, 01:55:20 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quotes from parents who deny their kids were at-risk:
      “Oh, my son wasn’t at risk he just ended up in jail because the judge was an ass hole”

      “Oh, my kid lives on the streets because we feel the kid should always have a say in how they want to live”

      “Oh, my kid beats up people and robs them because he doesn’t want to work.  I don’t think we should judge him for that… besides he isn’t at risk, his victims are”
      lol
      Citation please... These do not sound like real actual quotes. They sound like "real Whooter quotes."
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 01:58:37 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


      I did what????

      Ok....you've officially jumped the shark now.  If you had ANY shred of credibility....any sliver at all, it is now forever lost.

      I have never, EVER "admitted" any such thing.

      Fuck you, you lying piece of shit.  Fuck you and every goddamned thing you stand for.  Ya know....I can live with all your exaggerations, minimalizations, denial, deflection, attempts at distraction but you have truly hit a new low here.




      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      ...not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery. The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Those were awful places.  We are all lucky they closed them down.

      Just stop it.  You are seriously THE SINGLE most disingenuous poster here.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 08, 2010, 02:23:52 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Again...I don't think anyone here is saying that no child ever needs help. What we ARE saying is that a lot of parents seem to just accept sending them away as the norm, rather than the exception. You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.
      Kindly provide a link. I don't recall her ever posting anything of the sort. What a bizarre thing to state. Perhaps you "misunderstood?"  :D

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Any kind of "treatment" that would involved separating the child from the family for such an extended period of time alone would warrant it be used as an absolute LAST resort and even then you've got to make sure it's real help with qualified people.
      Exactly, most parents that I know of have done that.  I think the key is qualified people (we agree here!) and that parents should speak with other parents to help insure the program is a good fit for their daughter.
      Can you possibly show where or how you come to the assumption that "most parents" have already exhausted all other options before they resort to a program? Most parents are given such a spiel -- by the Edcons, by the programs, by other already inculcated parents, by so called "expert" other parents -- that often the potentially destructive nature of these programs can be quite obscured.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      ...not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery. The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.
      Those were awful places.  We are all lucky they closed them down.
      Oh, there are a number of them still open. For one, the sister school of Mount Bachelor Academy - Academy at Swift River -- is still in operation. As most folk by now know, MBA recently got shut down for systemic abuse. ASR uses many of the same therapeutic modalities that MBA used... In fact, I'm not really sure why you made that statement since, as you well know, there are dozens of these hell-holes still in operation.

      Come to think of it, the fact that a good number of these places are still open ... would appear to be a good part of why you are here posting on fornits in the first place, now wouldn't it, Whooter?  :D

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Now, bring on the minimization, justification and super spin that we're oh-so accustomed to by now.
      This is a great discussion,  If you don’t like people responding why post?
      Lol. I must have missed that exchange! I, for one, certainly do enjoy your posts, Whooter! Keep flailing away!  :D
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 08, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
      Whooter reminds me of the defense attorneys who knowingly protects the guilty and attacks crime victims with a smile. The crazy off the wall pro-program lunatic is laughable. Whooter's brand of pro-program verbiage is both Machiavellian and sociopathic. No empathy. All smoke and mirrors.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 02:36:10 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Whooter's brand of pro-program verbiage is both Machiavellian and sociopathic. No empathy. All smoke and mirrors.


      Yep.


      I love the smell of smoke and mirrors in the morning.

      ***inhales deeply***


      Smells like..............desperation.

      (http://http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes5/apocalypse-duvall.jpeg)
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 02:40:37 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 02:58:15 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      But was yours super extremely at –risk?

      Actually, yes.  Drug problem, violent, defiant, depressed and at one time, suicidal.  Somehow we managed to find help for her without doing more damage to her by sending her off to one of the torture camps.

      Any other questions?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 08, 2010, 02:58:38 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      (http://http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes5/apocalypse-duvall.jpeg)
      Would those be some of them thar deadinsaneorinjail hapless teenagers in the background, headed out on a march, or off to work crew?   :D
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 03:14:06 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 03:35:28 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      But was yours super extremely at –risk?

      Actually, yes.  Drug problem, violent, defiant, depressed and at one time, suicidal.  Somehow we managed to find help for her without doing more damage to her by sending her off to one of the torture camps.

      Any other questions?

      Its a good thing she wasn't Super, Super extremely at-risk.  



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 03:37:45 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...


      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point  for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?

      If you asked your parents Maruska you would have a more realistic answer, then come back and tell us.

      danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 03:43:54 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      :   Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.

      You responded:

      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      I did what????

      Ok....you've officially jumped the shark now. If you had ANY shred of credibility....any sliver at all, it is now forever lost.

      I have never, EVER "admitted" any such thing.

      Fuck you, you lying piece of shit. Fuck you and every goddamned thing you stand for. Ya know....I can live with all your exaggerations, minimalizations, denial, deflection, attempts at distraction but you have truly hit a new low here.

      Whoa Anne lol.  You sound pissed off!!  Lets take a closer look at this whole conversation.

      Lets see, Anne, you said of me:
      Quote
      You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Why don’t you start by showing the readers where I said this.  Then you can post the citation that shows I am this Reuben guy.  Then finally the link that shows I am not a program parent and that I work for the industry.

      So you see I have lived with your lies and exaggerations, deflections and spin but since I wont give in to the mentality that all programs are abusive then it is accepted to bend the truth.  Why does it hurt so much more when the shoe is on your foot.  I never cried like you do.

      See the double standard is alive and well here on fornits.  



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 03:51:09 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Whoa Anne lol.  You sound pissed off!!

      Yes, it pisses me off when you outright lie about what I've said.  Crazy, I know.


      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Why don’t you start by showing the readers where I said this.

      Pick any of the JRC threads.



       
      Quote
      Why does it hurt so much more when the shoe is on your foot.  I never cried like you do.

      I never lied about things you said.

      Quote
      See the double standard is alive and well here on fornits.  

      You are either delusional or just an outright liar.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 03:57:03 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.


      I have.  An extremely "at risk" child.  Somehow, I managed to do it without sending her off to strangers.

      Quote
      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.


      Again...I don't think anyone here is saying that no child ever needs help.  What we ARE saying is that a lot of parents seem to just accept sending them away as the norm, rather than the exception.  You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything.  You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.  

      Any kind of "treatment" that would involved separating the child from the family for such an extended period of time alone would warrant it be used as an absolute LAST resort and even then you've got to make sure it's real  help with qualified people....not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery.  The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.

      Now, bring on the minimization, justification and super spin that we're oh-so accustomed to by now.


      No let me Anne and I definitely don't speak for whooter. There was a exchange going on between Whooter, Maruska and Samara that was pretty good, information being traded and opinions being discussed. NO ONE mentioned your name anywhere or Ursus for that matter but as usual you both have got to stick your BIG FAT EGOSin the thread. Anne has to loose her temper and start cussing like some street whore. Anne for once here on fornits go lay down and STFU.
      You do embellish your points so does your buddy Ursus, what?????? you both didn't think we knew that....lol.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 03:59:42 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

      Pick any of the JRC threads.

      Oh sure, Great citation.


        Anne you admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


      So lets see... if any of you want proof just pick any of the Straight Threads or many of you posts early on.  You have stated this on many occasions but it seems you have changed your tune.. why?



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 08, 2010, 04:01:22 PM
      Anne, there's no law making you waste your time with these idiots. Neither one is worth your respect or typing. Why bother?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:03:17 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Whooter reminds me of the defense attorneys who knowingly protects the guilty and attacks crime victims with a smile. The crazy off the wall pro-program lunatic is laughable. Whooter's brand of pro-program verbiage is both Machiavellian and sociopathic. No empathy. All smoke and mirrors.

      And yours is not Machiavellian, you haven't even seen the programs your talking about, your reading posts from others and emulating. So come on lets get honest here.

      Danny
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 04:05:57 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 04:07:51 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Oh sure, Great citation.

      Are you denying that you were defending the actions of the Judge Rotenberg Center?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 04:11:23 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      So lets see... if any of you want proof just pick any of the Straight Threads or many of you posts early on.


      You weren't in Straight, therefore have no authority to speak of what happened inside.  I was here (Fornits) when you posted in defense of JRC and it's actions.  Are you now denying that you have defended JRC?

      Quote
      You have stated this on many occasions but it seems you have changed your tune.. why?


      Stated what?

      You're a fucking liar, plain and simple.  You've proven it - yet again - today.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:12:15 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
      Anne, there's no law making you waste your time with these idiots. Neither one is worth your respect or typing. Why bother?

      Pile,  Oh the "conquistador" of shit talking.  Muey bueno!!!!!!!!
      I see your profound effect on the new comers, my it reminds me of my eval when I arrived at Elan.
      I wish I was bullshitting you but I'm not, your right Pile that program you went to, fucked you up. Stop making others pay for it.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:17:11 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Whooter from my experience working in programs I noticed a couple of things.  Parents physically abused their children, verbally abused their children, sexually abused their children, abused drugs, abused alcohol, were going through a divorce, didn't spend enough time with their children, failed to supervise their children on a consistent basis, failed to enforce logical rules in the home [up for debate], failed to consequence their children within reason [not talking about torture etc.] and failed to act as good role models.  As a result, the child says fuck it, I'll party hardy, skip school, steal cars, burn latrines, blow up mail boxes etc.  Often adults cannot connect the dots.  I don't know if the above applies to you, only you can answer that.  Some parents choose to step up to the plate, man up and tackle the problem head on.  Others take the easy way out.  Again I don't know if this applies to you, only you can answer that.


      When you have children and have raised them then and only then do you have the right to ask those questions.

      danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 08, 2010, 04:18:39 PM
      Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
      Anne, there's no law making you waste your time with these idiots. Neither one is worth your respect or typing. Why bother?


      You're right.  And besides...it looks like its driving DannyBoy crazy that he's not the center of attention today.  Notice how he keeps trying to insert himself into this and how everyone's ignoring him?  He doesn't like being ignored.
        :beat:  :rofl:  :rofl:
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 04:19:45 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:24:54 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Whoa Anne lol.  You sound pissed off!!

      Yes, it pisses me off when you outright lie about what I've said.  Crazy, I know.


      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Why don’t you start by showing the readers where I said this.

      Pick any of the JRC threads.



       
      Quote
      Why does it hurt so much more when the shoe is on your foot.  I never cried like you do.

      I never lied about things you said.

      Quote
      See the double standard is alive and well here on fornits.  

      You are either delusional or just an outright liar.

      Anne you folks have written damn near a book on whooter being a schill, castrating him for sending his daughter to a program, humiliating him over his sons death ect.....Lies and abuse......hmmmmmm...I don't fucking care who he is, when you start debasing a father over his dead son that's when my gloves comes off and I want nothing to do with you. I left you left wing nuts a long time ago.

      Danny
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 04:27:22 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 04:33:43 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 04:38:49 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.

      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.



      ...


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:44:55 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
      Anne, there's no law making you waste your time with these idiots. Neither one is worth your respect or typing. Why bother?


      You're right.  And besides...it looks like its driving DannyBoy crazy that he's not the center of attention today.  Notice how he keeps trying to insert himself into this and how everyone's ignoring him?  He doesn't like being ignored.
        :beat:  :rofl:  :rofl:

      Anne what drives me is to show readers who come here exactly what to expect out of you, Pile and wanna be boy Joel. The three stooges. Also allow readers to see a different point of veiw. Which as we can see they want.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 04:46:33 PM
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...


      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point  for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?

      If you asked your parents Maruska you would have a more realistic answer, then come back and tell us.

      danny


      Ask my parents?  Confusing...what do my parents to do with this?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 04:52:22 PM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...


      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point  for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?

      If you asked your parents Maruska you would have a more realistic answer, then come back and tell us.

      danny

      Quote
      Ask my parents?  Confusing...what do my parents to do with this?

      Well your parents were involved in the decision to send you to your program, right. Well if that is the case ask them what was the process that they followed.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 08, 2010, 05:02:21 PM
      :twofinger:


      How did you come to the conclusion that I was in a program?!?


      You must be confusing me with someone:)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 08, 2010, 05:30:18 PM
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I think this is how you view parenting, Whooter...not every parent sees parenting like that...


      I would really like to know: where was the breaking point  for you? When did you decide, that your parenting did not work and you have to send your daughter to a program?
      If you asked your parents Maruska you would have a more realistic answer, then come back and tell us.

      danny
      Ask my parents?  Confusing...what do my parents to do with this?
      Well your parents were involved in the decision to send you to your program, right. Well if that is the case ask them what was the process that they followed.

      Danny
      :rofl:  Is this your idea of "independent thinking," Danny? Where your idea of who a poster is ... is completely independent from, and has nothing whatsoever to do with, what they post?

      @Maruska: your parents might be very amused by this! Then again, maybe not! Lol.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 08, 2010, 05:45:19 PM
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.
      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.
      I have.  An extremely "at risk" child.  Somehow, I managed to do it without sending her off to strangers.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.
      Again...I don't think anyone here is saying that no child ever needs help.  What we ARE saying is that a lot of parents seem to just accept sending them away as the norm, rather than the exception.  You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything.  You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.  

      Any kind of "treatment" that would involved separating the child from the family for such an extended period of time alone would warrant it be used as an absolute LAST resort and even then you've got to make sure it's real  help with qualified people....not some fucking pseudo-newage-tough love form of quackery.  The ones that isolate them from the outside world, use the TC/confrontative peer pressure mode of "therapy", LGAT-like sessions, extreme hiking, pain compliance and restraining etc. should be fucking outlawed and the providers of such "therapy" be jailed.

      Now, bring on the minimization, justification and super spin that we're oh-so accustomed to by now.
      No let me Anne and I definitely don't speak for whooter. There was a exchange going on between Whooter, Maruska and Samara that was pretty good, information being traded and opinions being discussed. NO ONE mentioned your name anywhere or Ursus for that matter but as usual you both have got to stick your BIG FAT EGOSin the thread. Anne has to loose her temper and start cussing like some street whore. Anne for once here on fornits go lay down and STFU.
      You do embellish your points so does your buddy Ursus, what?????? you both didn't think we knew that....lol.

      Danny
      Danny, if you are unhappy that certain people are participating in an open discussion and you want that changed, you'll just have to take it up with the Admins.

      For the record, I don't recall embellishing any points nor do I recall Anne doing so. If you want to make flaming judgments like that, you might want to cite some links if you still harbor any hope that you'll be taken seriously.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 06:07:13 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "maruska"
      :twofinger:


      How did you come to the conclusion that I was in a program?!?


      You must be confusing me with someone:)

      And the circle is complete.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 06:12:20 PM
      A lot of posts here, lets take a look at where we are at:

      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Why don’t you start by showing the readers where I said this.  Then you can post the citation that shows I am this Reuben guy.  Then finally the link that shows I am not a program parent and that I work for the industry.

      After you post the links/citations, Anne, I will post the link to where you  admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.

      You got yourself caught up into many lies here Anne and you are now trying to deflect and spin it once again.  If you have proof of what you say about me then just post it here.  If you dont have proof then just admit that you lied and we can move on.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 06:19:38 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 06:20:51 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      A lot of posts here, lets take a look at where we are at:

      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places.
      Why don’t you start by showing the readers where I said this.  Then you can post the citation that shows I am this Reuben guy.  Then finally the link that shows I am not a program parent and that I work for the industry.

      After you post the links/citations, Anne, I will post the link to where you  admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.

      You got yourself caught up into many lies here Anne and you are now trying to deflect and spin it once again.  If you have proof of what you say about me then just post it here.  If you dont have proof then just admit that you lied and we can move on.
      ...



      AMEN
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 06:23:41 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Whooter from my experience working in programs I noticed a couple of things.  Parents (1) physically abused their children (2) verbally abused their children (3) sexually abused their children (4) abused drugs (5) abused alcohol (6) were going through a divorce (7) didn't spend enough time with their children (8) failed to supervise their children on a consistent basis (9) failed to enforce logical rules in the home [up for debate] (10) failed to consequence their children within reason [not talking about torture etc.] and (11) failed to act as good role models.  As a result, the child says fuck it, I'll party hard, skip school, steal cars, burn latrines, blow up mail boxes and the whole nine yards  Often adults cannot connect the dots.  I am not saying the above applies to you but only you can answer that.  Some parents choose to step up to the plate, man up and tackle the problem head on.  Others take the easy way out, don't exhaust every option in the book and take the easy way out by sending their child to a program.  Again I don't know if this applies to you, only you can answer that.


      Jeesh thanks "BUTT WIPE" I thought we missed it.

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 06:25:44 PM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.

      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.



      ...


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)


      Oh, no doubt, Maruska.  Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here.   You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries.  So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful.  I think we can agree there anyway.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 06:32:16 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 06:42:20 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Quote
      Oh, no doubt, Maruska. Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here. You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries. So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful. I think we can agree there anyway.

      Citations Whooter?   Sounds like make believe statistics to me.

       :jawdrop:

      Lets take a look quick and dirty:
      Well there are about 50,000,000 kids in school.  I read somewhere that there were about 300 programs.  Lets say each program has 100 people.  That’s 30,000 kids.
      So 49,970,000 kids out of 50,000,000 get by without the help of programs.

      Which equates to:  99.94%... not too far off.

      If you have different numbers then toss them up and we can compare.  Its always good to have many opinions and sources.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 06:46:27 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 06:54:53 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Quote
      Lets take a look quick and dirty:
      Well there are about 50,000,000 kids in school. I read somewhere that there were about 300 programs. Lets say each program has 100 people. That’s 30,000 kids.
      So 49,970,000 kids out of 50,000,000 get by without the help of programs.

      Which equates to: 99.94%... not too far off.

      If you have different numbers then toss them up and we can compare. Its always good to have many opinions and sources.

      Ya been throwing these figures out for years.  Provide a link or citations for 50,000,000 kids somewhere in school.  You read about 300 programs.  Provide a link or citation.  Your history of flooding fornits with misleading statistics.... :rofl:

      Joel, I am not going to argue with you about the numbers.
      Dont be lazy, go look yourself.  Add some value for a change... if you think there are 60,000,000 kids or 200 programs then speak up.   If you feel my numbers are not credible then just skip over them.  Thats what I do with your personal accounts from RMA.  They have no credibility and we both know that.  But I am not going to cry over it and force you to prove it every post.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 06:59:51 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 07:09:23 PM
      Quote
      Ursus wrote:
      Danny, if you are unhappy that certain people are participating in an open discussion and you want that changed, you'll just have to take it up with the Admins.
      For the record, I don't recall embellishing any points nor do I recall Anne doing so. If you want to make flaming judgments like that, you might want to cite some links if you still harbor any hope that you'll be taken seriously
      .

      Danny wrote:
      Ursus for the record you have to be kidding me. Flaming judgments. You want me to cite links/posts for your embellished posts. OK but please don't be embarrassed because there are many. I will accept the challenge. Give me time. OH your support for Annie Bananie is touching.  
      There is another web site I would also like to take your posts to, so we could get a broader opinion on the embellishment of your posts.
      Definition of Embellish:
      Results
      1. to make beautiful with ornamentation : decorate - a book ?ed with illustrations
      2. to heighten the attractiveness of by adding decorative or fanciful details : enhance - ?ed our account of the trip- Synonym - see adorn
      Ursus if you look at the results of "embellish" you will see it is not exactly a flaming remark, more a attractive illustration of the aggrandizement of your posts.

      Citation #1.
      As far as public schools go, it really depends mostly on the neighborhood and/or town, doesn't it? If you think that what's going on in a PS in Grosse Point, Michigan or Manhasset, Long Island can possibly compare with what's going on in a PS in the South Bronx, you are seriously delusional.
      Bring this up at the next School Board Meeting in the South Bronx, please. NO Maybe I'll just post it on their web site and see what kind of response you get.
      Citation #2.
      Just what are you trying to say here? Are you trying to dissuade me from pointing out the obvious, namely, that not all public schools are equivalent when it comes to the quality of the education one receives, that local poverty does affect the quality of services one does or does not receive at school, and that some schools have significant problems with bullying and others do not?

      Danny
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 07:14:02 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 07:26:03 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Quote
      Citation #1.

      As far as public schools go, it really depends mostly on the neighborhood and/or town, doesn't it? If you think that what's going on in a PS in Grosse Point, Michigan or Manhasset, Long Island can possibly compare with what's going on in a PS in the South Bronx, you are seriously delusional.
      Bring this up at the next School Board Meeting in the South Bronx, please. NO Maybe I'll just post it on their web site and see what kind of response you get.

      Citation #2.

      Just what are you trying to say here? Are you trying to dissuade me from pointing out the obvious, namely, that not all public schools are equivalent when it comes to the quality of the education one receives, that local poverty does affect the quality of services one does or does not receive at school, and that some schools have significant problems with bullying and others do not?

      Danny


      Link?  You do have a vivid imagination.

      Joel as you requested.
      viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30639&start=15 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30639&start=15)

      Danny
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 07:30:00 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Quote
      Joel, I am not going to argue with you about the numbers.
      Dont be lazy, go look yourself. Add some value for a change... if you think there are 60,000,000 kids or 200 programs then speak up. If you feel my numbers are not credible then just skip over them. Thats what I do with your personal accounts from RMA. They have no credibility and we both know that. But I am not going to cry over it and force you to prove it every post.

      (http://http://canuckjihad.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/crybaby.png?w=300&h=425)


      Sorry Joel, didnt mean to be critical.  Dont get so upset.  Just try to get along a little better and try to see other peoples perspective a little more.  You tend to ask a lot from others with out contributing much yourself.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 07:31:24 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 08, 2010, 07:49:08 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 08:03:13 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Whooter I"m not upset and don't think you're critical.  

      Thats good, Carry on then.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Paul St. John on June 08, 2010, 08:06:29 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Whooter I"m not upset and don't think you're critical.  

      Thats good, Carry on then.



      ...


      Are you excited Joel?  Whooter has granted you the right to carry on!!!!!

      :)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 08, 2010, 10:49:43 PM
      Quote
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Quote
      Citation #1.

      As far as public schools go, it really depends mostly on the neighborhood and/or town, doesn't it? If you think that what's going on in a PS in Grosse Point, Michigan or Manhasset, Long Island can possibly compare with what's going on in a PS in the South Bronx, you are seriously delusional.
      Bring this up at the next School Board Meeting in the South Bronx, please. NO Maybe I'll just post it on their web site and see what kind of response you get.

      Citation #2.

      Just what are you trying to say here? Are you trying to dissuade me from pointing out the obvious, namely, that not all public schools are equivalent when it comes to the quality of the education one receives, that local poverty does affect the quality of services one does or does not receive at school, and that some schools have significant problems with bullying and others do not?

      Danny


         *  The author's name
          * The title of the article
          * The name of the magazine or journal in which it is located
          * The volume number of the magazine or journal
          * The page numbers on which the article is located
          * The date when the article was published


      Not my job man, just posting the facts but hey if you want to run around and help your buddy have at it.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 08, 2010, 11:35:42 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Whooter from my experience working in programs I noticed a couple of things.  Parents (1) physically abused their children (2) verbally abused their children (3) sexually abused their children (4) abused drugs (5) abused alcohol (6) were going through a divorce (7) didn't spend enough time with their children (8) failed to supervise their children on a consistent basis (9) failed to enforce logical rules in the home [up for debate] (10) failed to consequence their children within reason [not talking about torture etc.] and (11) failed to act as good role models.  As a result, the child says fuck it, I'll party hard, skip school, steal cars, burn latrines, blow up mail boxes and the whole nine yards  Often adults cannot connect the dots.  I am not saying the above applies to you but only you can answer that.  Some parents choose to step up to the plate, man up and tackle the problem head on.  Others take the easy way out, don't exhaust every option in the book and take the easy way out by sending their child to a program.  Again I don't know if this applies to you, only you can answer that.

      Joel where did you get this information?  You never provided a link or citation....I will answer you but you need to live up to your own standards.  Answer the following and then we will talk



      •   (1) What was the Parents First and Last Name
      •   (2) What type of Language did they use?
      •   (3)How do you define Sexual abuse?
      •   (4) How did you determine that drugs were abused?  Was there a test involved?
      •   (5) How much alcohol was consumed?
      •   (6)Who initiated the divorce (father or mother)?
      •   (7) How much time did they spend with their children and how do you define “enough”?
      •   (8)Can you provide a link indicating their consistency in this area?
      •   (9) Can you provide an example of illogical Rules?
      •   (10) Which consequences did they fail to enforce?
      •   (11) Can you provide a link to a good role model?




      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 09, 2010, 05:14:16 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Ok, I apologize, Whoother, I should have not be so blunt with you. It is always such a sensitive topic,when it comes to our own children .
      I just want to tell you this: my daughter put us through hell...in comparisson to your daughter she is a spitfire:) Yet we never, in a million years would consider to drop the ball and let anybody else raise her....

      It is probably a cultural difference. And maybe that is the reason we do not have such schools and programs in our country. We do need them.

      Thankfully You didnt have to raise an at-risk child.

      I dont think it is a cultural difference at all, Maruska.  Many people in American look for solutions and seek help where needed.  If we cannot solve our problems within the family we look outside the home for support.  If it doesn't exist then we invent it.  I am sure you have kids living on the streets, entering prison and not contributing to society in your country.



      ...


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)


      Oh, no doubt, Maruska.  Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here.   You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries.  So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful.  I think we can agree there anyway.



      ...

      Are you saying that you do not have kids who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc ? Really?
      I think you mentioned somewhere here on Fornits the number of children living in the street in the USA, and it was a shocking high number.

      So ...I really do not understand where are you going with this?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 07:03:45 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Are you saying that you do not have kids who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc ? Really?
      I think you mentioned somewhere here on Fornits the number of children living in the street in the USA, and it was a shocking high number.

      So ...I really do not understand where are you going with this?

      Quote from: "maruska"


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)


      Oh, no doubt, Maruska.  Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here.   You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries.  So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful.  I think we can agree there anyway.


      Until 100% of the kids are safe then we need to keep finding solutions.  Raising kids at home and not seeking outside is not 100% effective.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 09, 2010, 08:42:14 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Are you saying that you do not have kids who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc ? Really?
      I think you mentioned somewhere here on Fornits the number of children living in the street in the USA, and it was a shocking high number.

      So ...I really do not understand where are you going with this?

      Quote from: "maruska"


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)


      Oh, no doubt, Maruska.  Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here.   You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries.  So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful.  I think we can agree there anyway.


      Until 100% of the kids are safe then we need to keep finding solutions.  Raising kids at home and not seeking outside is not 100% effective.






      ...


      I could agree with that. When help is needed , it should be (and it is)  available.


      I am afraid we do not agree what HELP means:)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 09:10:35 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Are you saying that you do not have kids who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc ? Really?
      I think you mentioned somewhere here on Fornits the number of children living in the street in the USA, and it was a shocking high number.

      So ...I really do not understand where are you going with this?

      Quote from: "maruska"


      And you know this how? Do you want to compare notes whose daughter was more at risk? LOL

      I know you do not want to hear that , but it is possible to raise children without this industry. And succesfully.
      Otherwise all European teenagers would be dead or in jail...they are not, trust me on that:)


      Oh, no doubt, Maruska.  Approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs and we do a good job here.   You have kids in Europe who are living in the streets, in jail and who have died from drugs, neglect etc. like most other countries.  So your raising kids at home method (without the help of the industry) is not 100% successful.  I think we can agree there anyway.


      Until 100% of the kids are safe then we need to keep finding solutions.  Raising kids at home and not seeking outside is not 100% effective.






      ...


      I could agree with that. When help is needed , it should be (and it is)  available.


      I am afraid we do not agree what HELP means:)

      I agree.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 09:36:10 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      After you post the links/citations, Anne, I will post the link to where you  admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


      Ok...here ya go. All the quotes below can be found in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC)  You may disagree that you were defending them, but you asked for citations and agreed to provide the citations where I "admitted" that I exaggerated and that programs helped kids.  So, g'head.....cite away.


      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Che Gookin"
      Who gives a shit a what alternatives methods are used? What I want to know is what is going to be done to stop hooking kids up to mobile electric fences and shocking them till they smell like fried bacon.

      This shouldn't be about "exploring options".

      It should be about stopping something that is wrong, immediately.

      Fuck our society in the shitter if we've gotten that far gone that stopping something like JRC requires a committee and a blue ribbon panel followed by a conference wrapped up with 39933 page report.

      All of us can go right to hell, and probably will be, if this sort of apple polishing bullshit is endorsed while kids are being zapped silly.

      No compromises.. Shut JRC down, and Throw that asshole Matthew Israel into prison with a sign around his neck that says, "Child Abuser".

      Look Che, you cant just stop Chemotherapy because you cant stand the sight of kids vomiting and their hair falling out.  You should read up on the pros and cons of this place.  Take a look at the quality of life these kids have.  Its near zero....Its no life being restrained 24/7 and drugged out to the point where you are drooling all day.  If this gives kids a chance at a better or near normal life then why deny them that?  Most of them choose the GED and before any child can be subjected they need to go before a judge along with advocacy groups and independent psych sign off.

      Read up on it... thats what I am doing.




      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Oh, but it most certainly is! Now, if you really had been reading up on this place instead of playing around with your baseless chemotherapy analogies, Whooter, you would know that a lot of parents of self-harming autistics just don't send them to JRC anymore! Big surprise! Apparently, there are other alternatives!

      There.. thank you.  Since you reacted and called the analogy baseless instead of arguing against it shows me that it was effective and understood.  We both know that they are both therapies which cause pain and from a distance appear to be very abusive.  If you performed a therapy on a child 100 years ago that caused the child to vomit and the kids hair fell out you would be hung from a tree.

      From my reading autistic children are still being sent to the center.  If this isn't the case anymore I would like to see the link.  If the center has open beds and can help some less severe children then I don’t see why they shouldn’t allow them to be accepted and helped at the center.  I could see your concern but you filling in a lot of information that is not there.

      But besides that the issue is “shock treatment”.  Not all the people being treated at the center receive shock treatment and before anyone can they need to have a hearing before a judge, meet with advocacy groups and see a psychologist to determine if this type of treatment would be beneficial or warranted. I dont see how, with the present screening criteria, an at-risk youth could be exposed to shock treatment.

      But that is why we are all here to get answers and find out what they are doing and to whom and how effective it is.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      If you sedated the child with the behavior problems and restrained her she would probably live a long life but her quality of life would be near zero.  If you did nothing the child would probably injure herself severely.  If you tried shock treatment the child may respond and be able to live a long a happier life.

      I think it is a good parallel and doesn’t make it easy to conclude that shock treatment is inhumane considering the alternative paths.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I am just trying to gain an understanding as to why people here object to it.  Some thoughts:

      So its not strictly that it harms the person, but rather that it is done to alter their behavior?

       So some here feel harming someone to try to cure cancer is okay?  What if the chemotherapy also altered the childs behavior.  Would that be okay?  If the child became afraid to go outside because she was bald and became self conscious of her appearance.  Would this altered behavior be okay?

      Lets ask ourselves…..Is it okay to alter a persons behavior via medication instead of shock therapy?  What if the medication had to be administered via needle (which is like a bee sting) would that be okay?  Would the harm being inflicted outweigh the benefits?

      What if the person choose to have the shock therapy and realized there would be a bee sting effect involved?  Would you object to the use on that level?

      What if not altering the childs behavior meant that he/she would harm themselves seriously or someone else?

      Quote from: "Whooter"

      We know that these kids came from restraints 24/7 and or medicated to the point of drooling.  So their quality of life was very low.  So we cant just ignore the fact that if the doors close that these children will return to restraints and medication.  I am sure their are groups of people who would be against physical restraints and call them abusive and would rather see these kids being able to walk freely and just as easily take the position:  "We dont care what happens to these kids as long as they are not restrained,  Primum non nocere", and turn a blind eye to shock treatment like you are to Restraints.

      I think we can establish that abuse has occurred at this center.  But it has not been establish that the treatment is abusive.  It is described as a bee sting.  We have heard that children have been burned by the treatment, but it has not been established that every kid is burned.  Maybe this was an error.  People get mistakenly burned by radiation treatment also, but not all people do.

      I dont think it is fair to place the burden on Dr. Isreal to find an alternative either... he has a solution and has moved forward with it.  The whole scientific community bears the burden to search for an alternative.

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I see what you are saying.  To see these kids who are banging their heads so hard on the floor that their eyes come loose from their heads and severe retinas and then watch a group become outraged because this same person receives a bee sting shock which will allow him to live freely and visit their favorite restaurant on their own I don’t see the scales tipping in favor of allowing the self abuse as the humane choice.

      From the silence (here) I think this reality has sunk in and the ones that just simply aligned themselves behind a few reports of abuse are starting to rethink their position because the argument against this shock treatment seems very weak in light of the benefits.  Some say they don’t like it because it burns them and others say that they are shocked 24/7 but if asked if the burns were not typical or that the shocks averaged once per week then many here would still be against it why?  
      So this tells me that many here really don’t know why they are against the therapy they just enjoy being with a crowd maybe.  I am surprised that so many here on fornits advocate physical restraints and medication vs therapy.  If we were discussing restraints in a Therapeutic Boarding school then the majority here on fornits would be against it so why are restraints a better alternative at JRC?  Go figure.







      Quote
      You got yourself caught up into many lies here Anne and you are now trying to deflect and spin it once again.  If you have proof of what you say about me then just post it here.  If you dont have proof then just admit that you lied and we can move on.


      Ball's in your court asshole.  I never lied about a thing.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 10:06:15 AM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      After you post the links/citations, Anne, I will post the link to where you  admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


      Ok...here ya go. All the quotes below can be found in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC)  You may disagree that you were defending them, but you asked for citations and agreed to provide the citations where I "admitted" that I exaggerated and that programs helped kids.  So, g'head.....cite away.

      Okay so I followed you link and the first post I come across which was mine said:

      "I haven’t formed an opinion,myself.".....  Doesnt sound like a defense to me.  You confuse an open minded discussion with defending a position.  It is threatening to you when people can think for themselves and view both sides of the issues.

      If people openly question whether or not a program is abusive or not doesnt mean they are defending the process.  They are shinning a spot light on it an looking at it objectively, thats all.

      Now when you find those posts of mine that you claim I support all these terrible places and where I said I was this Reuben guy and that I work for the industry just provide us with the links and we will take a look at them.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 10:08:48 AM
      I think this is a good exercise for you, Anne.  As you search for those posts you will be forced to realize that you were wrong and that they don’t exist.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 10:09:50 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      After you post the links/citations, Anne, I will post the link to where you  admitted yourself here on fornits that programs are helpful in most cases and that you had embellished many of the events that you claim occurred inside the program.


      Ok...here ya go. All the quotes below can be found in this thread... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30485&hilit=JRC)  You may disagree that you were defending them, but you asked for citations and agreed to provide the citations where I "admitted" that I exaggerated and that programs helped kids.  So, g'head.....cite away.

      Okay so I followed you link and the first post I come across which was mine said:

      "I haven’t formed an opinion,myself.".....  Doesnt sound like a defense to me.  You confuse an open minded discussion with defending a position.  It is threatening to you when people can think for themselves and view both sides of the issues.

      If people openly question whether or not a program is abusive or not doesnt mean they are defending the process.  They are shinning a spot light on it an looking at it objectively, thats all.

      Now when you find those posts of mine that you claim I support all these terrible places and where I said I was this Reuben guy and that I work for the industry just provide us with the links and we will take a look at them.



      ...


      As I said, you may not agree that you were defending them or the procedures, but that's how I see it.  You agreed to provide a link to where you believe I "admitted" to exaggerating and that programs were helpful.  I'm sure I will disagree with you on that as well, but you agreed to cite posts that you believe I stated those things in.

      I'm waiting.
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 10:11:06 AM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 10:25:32 AM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


      As I said, you may not agree that you were defending them or the procedures, but that's how I see it.  You agreed to provide a link to where you believe I "admitted" to exaggerating and that programs were helpful.  I'm sure I will disagree with you on that as well, but you agreed to cite posts that you believe I stated those things in.

      I'm waiting.

      You might have thought that's what you said but lets take a look at the actual quote in reference to me:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.

      You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 10:39:19 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"


      As I said, you may not agree that you were defending them or the procedures, but that's how I see it.  You agreed to provide a link to where you believe I "admitted" to exaggerating and that programs were helpful.  I'm sure I will disagree with you on that as well, but you agreed to cite posts that you believe I stated those things in.

      I'm waiting.

      You might have thought that's what you said but lets take a look at the actual quote in reference to me:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.

      You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



      ...


      I knew you'd pussy out.

      Man up.  I cited where I believe you were defending the indefensible......the procedures used at JRC.  Provide where you even THINK I said that I exaggerated or that programs were helpful.
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 10:44:28 AM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 11:28:27 AM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Anne Whooter has been utilizing this tactic since he was called out like the little turd he is several pages ago for spitting out numbers.


      He's been doing it since he's been here.   I knew he'd couldn't/wouldn't be a man about it.  I said that he "defends the indefensible", which is an opinion, and I STILL provided the quotes where I believed he was defending JRC and their practices. He doesn't agree that he was defending them, but that's not the issue. He outright LIED and said that I wrote something I never did and now backpedals and spins when asked to back it up.  All par for the course for him and his ilk and further proves that you really can't believe or trust a goddamned thing he says.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 11:32:05 AM
      Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.

      You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 11:36:28 AM
      First, there is nothing wrong with the fact that this forum is not friendly to people who obfuscate the truth about these programs - namely, you. Many us abhor group think - instead, we have a shared experience. I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, and that you continue to set up residence here to purvey your insidious lack of empathy and deterrence.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 11:43:44 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.

      You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



      ...

      Pussy.

      Man up.  I provided what I perceived to be minimalization and denial about JRC.  Provide where you even THIHK I posted what you said I did.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 11:45:29 AM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      First, there is nothing wrong with the fact that this forum is not friendly to people who obfuscate the truth about these programs - namely, you. Many us abhor group think - instead, we have a shared experience. I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, and that you continue to set up residence here to purvey your insidious lack of empathy and deterrence.


      He doesn't get that we have experience INSIDE these places.  It gives us insight wrt the context of what's written in their glossy brochures and webpages that he doesn't posses and never will.
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 11:52:52 AM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 12:04:55 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.

      You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



      ...

      Pussy.

      Man up.  I provided what I perceived to be minimalization and denial about JRC.  Provide where you even THIHK I posted what you said I did.

      Sorry, Anne, you got caught in another lie.  You make statements about people that are not true ( we both know that).

      Go back to your original statement and own what you said.  Calling me names isnt going to help your credibility here.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 12:22:55 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Sorry, Anne, you got caught in another lie.  You make statements about people that are not true ( we both know that).

      Nope.  That's your gig dude.

      Quote
      Go back to your original statement and own what you said.  Calling me names isnt going to help your credibility here.



      'saright.....we all knew you'd try to weasel out of it.  You've just proven, again, that you're a liar.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Awake on June 09, 2010, 12:51:41 PM
      If we’re going to talk about things that way I never got a realistic answer to our conversation Whooter. Why should these institutions operate before they practice?


      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"

      So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



      .
      That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

      Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



      ...


      What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

      If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

      I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



      .



      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"


      What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

      If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

      I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



      .

      I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

      For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

      The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



      ...



      So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

      Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




      ...



      You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.

      I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.



      .

      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why?

      I am not saying we need to develop a vantage point anywhere.  What I meant is if you just saw the Chemo effects and that was all you were exposed to then you may conclude that the child was being abused.  If you stepped back and saw the sick child walk into the hospital and then visited her a year later (without seeing the process she went through) and saw her healthy you would conclude that the process was not abusive or hurtful to the child.

      Quote
      We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

      Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?

      I don’t think we are going to skip any step.  I am not aware of any Defined standards for Therapeutic schools as far as their modalities or processes go.



      ...

      Why shouldn’t parents want clear standards here?


      .
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
      First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration. You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

      The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 01:35:23 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration. You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

      The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.

      Thats classic, Samara.  so now I am BFF's with Rudy Bentz?  Where do you come up with this?  

      What if I said:  "Samara I think that you are level headed and calm and I would believe what you say but if it is true that you have been convicted of sexual abuse and have worked as staff in several programs and been fired there are many people who would love to speak with you."

      Its okay with you that we just make up theoretical conditions to discuss?



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 01:39:55 PM
      Quote from: "Awake"
      If we’re going to talk about things that way I never got a realistic answer to our conversation Whooter. Why should these institutions operate before they practice?

      Why shouldn’t parents want clear standards here?

      If given the choice I am sure they would want standards.  Personally I would like to see standards put into place.  I would like to see these places visited and rated by an independent panel of professionals so that we know which ones are the better programs.

      As far as I know there is no organization actively doing this.  This probably would have to come from government regulation.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: DannyB II on June 09, 2010, 02:06:31 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration.
       
      LOL.....Anne has been consistent on these threads, really. Well in what category would that be. Overzealous, oppressive, opinionated, judgmental, stubborn, blind, verbally abusive, childish, vulgar.
      Anne does have passion no doubt, she believes in her causes, I agree with most of her advocacy but she doesn't know how to listen to another point of view without attacking the persons character. In her opinion if you disagree with me you must be wanting to hurt the kids or you are brainwashed, that's it.  


      Quote
      You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.


      How about his strength is being level headed and leave it at that, because if you go any further you had better throw Ursus in that circle because you just described him also. Just because someone is calm does not mean they have a sense of indifference just means they do not let emotion rule them.
      You btw are starting to show your true colors. Why are you here anyways.

      Quote
      The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.

      Inculcate said resembled Lane Mechem ( missplelled).....funny stuff here..
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 02:13:06 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
       Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt.

       :notworthy:  :notworthy:

      Understatement of the year.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 02:14:58 PM
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      In her opinion if you disagree with me you must be wanting to hurt the kids or you are brainwashed, that's it.  

      Don't attempt to speak for me.  You're barely capable of speaking for yourself.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 02:30:36 PM
      1. I am simply saying Anne's position is consistent.  I don't really understand the problem with her passion - if you were systematically abused (and in my view, Straight was particularly degrading) and wanted to save people from similar experiences,then passion is warranted.  If you went on a site for abuse victims, and tried to mitigate/invalidate their experiences, you should expect to draw ire. Same here.  She is sincere. That says a lot.

      2. Then, yes, I am attacking Whooter - but not for being level headed. The calm demeanor is tactical, and if you reviewed all the posts for the past few years, you might understand why so many people with different temperaments take issue with him. It is all smoke and mirrors. And for people ho were hurt in these programs it is all the more insulting.

      3. I was addressing Whooter's affilation with Rudy. The BFF was just me being snarky. DB - You don't know Rudy. He was notorious power staff at CEDU.  He was subsequently affiliated wit Whooter's beloved program.  Whooter's program is not benign if they employ the same staff and the same experientials.

      4. Whooter gets under people's skin because he uses the "let's have a two-sided debate" strategically. It is a persona created to undermine the anti-program perspective. It is not a persona rooted in authenticity. We have all seen that over years of posts. It is insulting and frankly, hurtful. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I don't care. It's not that he takes an opposing view - he takes an invalidating view. But pretends not to. However, I will say he is skilled and surgical. But insincere.

      5. I said there are many people who would love to speak to Rudy.  As in former students who seek closure. Haven't you ever wanted to speak to any former staff who were particularly abusive, as an adult? They no longer have power of you.

      6. I'm not sure why you'd insult Anne's style without reflecting on your past posts.  I  expect you to belittle me after I tell you this, but your sexualized verbal aggression toward her in one of the threads was very unsettling. It actually hurt to read it just as a human being.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 09, 2010, 02:40:37 PM
      Whooter is "surgical"?  I could not disagree more.  His approach is as ham-handed as it comes.  Notwithstanding how he writes, he cannot form a logical thought or have a rational argument.  He simply avoids what he doesn't want to talk about while responding with ad hominems galore.  If that doesn't work, he makes up "data" from thin air and presents it as if it were valid somehow.  That's not surgical.  That's run-of-the-mill dumbassery.

      But you are right about his sexualized aggression toward Anne.  He obviously needs attention from a woman for whatever reason and he has seen a picture of Anne's bikini'ed backside which he has brought up several times.  It's no stretch of the imagination to envision him sitting there at his desk furiously masturbating while looking at Anne's picture and degrading her on Fornits.  He is definitely one seriously warped person.  But you hit it on the head - it's aggressive and it's sexualized.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 03:12:21 PM
      Surgical might be the wrong word. His data may not be precise and his arguments may not be precise, but his adopted demeanor is strategic. If you are a former program resident, you see the surgical mistakes. If you are just curious about programs, you may be diverted by the clinical persona.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 03:13:46 PM
      and #6 (sexualized aggression toward Anne) was directed to Danny, not Whooter. I was addressing Danny's defense of Whooter.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 09, 2010, 03:14:54 PM
      Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
      But you are right about his sexualized aggression toward Anne.  He obviously needs attention from a woman for whatever reason and he has seen a picture of Anne's bikini'ed backside which he has brought up several times.  It's no stretch of the imagination to envision him sitting there at his desk furiously masturbating while looking at Anne's picture and degrading her on Fornits.  He is definitely one seriously warped person.  But you hit it on the head - it's aggressive and it's sexualized.
      I think Samara was referring to Danny Bennison's sexualized aggression towards Anne back there (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12694&start=195#p366188)...

      However, since you brought it up, I think you are also correct in your assessment of Whooter's preoccupation with Anne!
      Title: Whooter's defense of Rudy Bentz
      Post by: Ursus on June 09, 2010, 03:16:59 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Samara"
      First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration. You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

      The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.
      Thats classic, Samara.  so now I am BFF's with Rudy Bentz?  Where do you come up with this?

      What if I said:  "Samara I think that you are level headed and calm and I would believe what you say but if it is true that you have been convicted of sexual abuse and have worked as staff in several programs and been fired there are many people who would love to speak with you."

      Its okay with you that we just make up theoretical conditions to discuss?
      Mmm... interesting.

      Here are a few posts from the Rudy's new job thread, from about four-and-a-half years ago:

      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11797&start=45#p137884) 05 Oct 2005 11:00:
      Quote from: "TheWho"
      Quote
      On 2005-10-05 05:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
      Quote
      On 2005-10-04 15:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
      "You have no ide what you are talking about. I had the priveledge of being taught by Rudy for 3 years, though he was thought of to be harsh, he was usually dead on. It is a shame that more people didn't get to know him the way my peer group did. "
      what did he teach you?  how to masturbate with a piece of liver and a milk carton?  how to determine who has the smallest penis at the facility?  these are some of his typical "lessons.""
      I dont think you expect anyone to believe that his typical daily lessons revolved around masturbation and measuring kids penis's?  And of the thousands of kids he was exposed to and taught not one of them told their parents?  All the kids passing through the programs accepted this as normal and didnt say anything?
      If he did this to just one kid, he would be in jail so fast and his name would be on the front of every paper.  Remember the publicity the teacher got for sleeping with her student (it was only one kid and he liked it) and it still got out?  And you claim Rudy does this everyday with thousands of kids and not one has come forward and pressed charges?  The first one who comes forward could get millions in settlement and retire at age 20.
      Someone is yankin yer chain, me think, when they told you this or you just made it up.
      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11797&start=60#p137991) 05 Oct 2005 16:30:
      Quote from: "TheWho"
      Quote
      On 2005-10-05 14:47:00, Son Of Serbia wrote:
      I knew Rudy Bentz when he worked at Cedu Running Springs. Guess what? I too remember hearing that sick fuck explain how he placed warm liver inside a milk carton with a hole cut on one side, and fucked it until the thing fell apart!

      I also remember that Rudy would often publicly humiliate male students  who he felt "were not working toward being part of the school." Rudy's favorite way of doing this involved calling the whole school's attention (usually right before raps) and announcing publicly which male students had the smallest dick.--Laughter and applause were also strongly encouraged.

      On a personal note:

      Rudy Bentz actually tried manhandling me once, but I was stronger than him, so instead he got slammed into a book shelf!

      Rudy Bentz is a sick, abusive, pedophilic freak!

      He's tormented hundreds (perhaps thousands)of children over his 30 career in the bullshit- emotional-growth-scam-industry, and yes he's truly every bit the monster that people make him out to be.

      Seriously Troll, get a life already, and stop fronting like you know Rudy Bentz, because it's obvious you don't know shit!
      [ This Message was edited by: Son Of Serbia on 2005-10-05 14:49 ]
      Well I actually knew Rudy, believe it or not and I have been involved as a parent when he was with Swift River Academy and what you are saying is far from the truth. Anyone who has been part of a program would tell you that if a kid was being ridiculed in front of the school the other kids would not be laughing and cheering.  You just blew your case right there.  The kids were good kids and would not enjoy seeing this happen (maybe thats what makes you different or what makes us disagree).
      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11797&start=60#p138208) on 06 Oct 2005 09:32:
      Quote from: "TheWho"
      Quote
      On 2005-10-06 05:35:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
      Quote
      On 2005-10-05 14:47:00, Son Of Serbia wrote:
      I knew Rudy Bentz when he worked at Cedu Running Springs. Guess what? I too remember hearing that sick fuck explain how he placed warm liver inside a milk carton with a hole cut on one side, and fucked it until the thing fell apart!

      I also remember that Rudy would often publicly humiliate male students  who he felt "were not working toward being part of the school." Rudy's favorite way of doing this involved calling the whole school's attention (usually right before raps) and announcing publicly which male students had the smallest dick.--Laughter and applause were also strongly encouraged.

      On a personal note:

      Rudy Bentz actually tried manhandling me once, but I was stronger than him, so instead he got slammed into a book shelf!

      Rudy Bentz is a sick, abusive, pedophilic freak!

      He's tormented hundreds (perhaps thousands)of children over his 30 career in the bullshit- emotional-growth-scam-industry, and yes he's truly every bit the monster that people make him out to be.

      Seriously Troll, get a life already, and stop fronting like you know Rudy Bentz, because it's obvious you don't know shit!
      [ This Message was edited by: Son Of Serbia on 2005-10-05 14:49 ]
      I'm afraid you just don't have a clue about which you speak, ma'am.  You are disputing first-hand accounts from folks who have witnessed this behavior personally with what amounts to your "feelings" about Rudy or the "program."  That simply doesn't hold water.

      I worked with Rudy in 1994 and 1995 at Hidden Lake Academy and I too personally witnessed him saying EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS.  I'm afraid your thinking about Rudy just doesn't measure up to reality.  There are too many accounts separated temporally and spatially, but nearly identical, for any thinking person to dismiss them based on no evidence whatsover.  You are off the mark, lady, way off.

      The fact is that abusers have PATTERNS of abuse, and this disgusting, sexually suggestive and humiliating behavior is Rudy's pattern, whether you choose to accept it or not.
      _________________

      "Compassion is the basis of morality."
      -Arnold Schopenhauer
      [ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-10-06 05:42 ]
      I saw a different Rudy than you did and my kid spent 16 months at the school he was at and never experienced anything even close to that, in fact just the opposite.  These are also first hand accounts, Not saying you didnt see what you did, I guess people change as they grow and mature.  I am definitely a different person than I was 10 or 15 years ago.
      Sorry that you get so angry with people who disagree with you, doesnt mean you are wrong, just a different point of view.
      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11797&start=60#p138289) on 06 Oct 2005 13:20:
      Quote from: "TheWho"
      Quote
      On 2005-10-06 11:50:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
      Quote
      On 2005-10-06 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
      Quote
      On 2005-10-06 05:35:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
      Quote
      On 2005-10-05 14:47:00, Son Of Serbia wrote:
      I knew Rudy Bentz when he worked at Cedu Running Springs. Guess what? I too remember hearing that sick fuck explain how he placed warm liver inside a milk carton with a hole cut on one side, and fucked it until the thing fell apart!

      I also remember that Rudy would often publicly humiliate male students  who he felt "were not working toward being part of the school." Rudy's favorite way of doing this involved calling the whole school's attention (usually right before raps) and announcing publicly which male students had the smallest dick.--Laughter and applause were also strongly encouraged.

      On a personal note:

      Rudy Bentz actually tried manhandling me once, but I was stronger than him, so instead he got slammed into a book shelf!

      Rudy Bentz is a sick, abusive, pedophilic freak!

      He's tormented hundreds (perhaps thousands)of children over his 30 career in the bullshit- emotional-growth-scam-industry, and yes he's truly every bit the monster that people make him out to be.

      Seriously Troll, get a life already, and stop fronting like you know Rudy Bentz, because it's obvious you don't know shit!
      [ This Message was edited by: Son Of Serbia on 2005-10-05 14:49 ]
      I'm afraid you just don't have a clue about which you speak, ma'am.  You are disputing first-hand accounts from folks who have witnessed this behavior personally with what amounts to your "feelings" about Rudy or the "program."  That simply doesn't hold water.

      I worked with Rudy in 1994 and 1995 at Hidden Lake Academy and I too personally witnessed him saying EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS.  I'm afraid your thinking about Rudy just doesn't measure up to reality.  There are too many accounts separated temporally and spatially, but nearly identical, for any thinking person to dismiss them based on no evidence whatsover.  You are off the mark, lady, way off.

      The fact is that abusers have PATTERNS of abuse, and this disgusting, sexually suggestive and humiliating behavior is Rudy's pattern, whether you choose to accept it or not.
      _________________

      "Compassion is the basis of morality."
      -Arnold Schopenhauer
      [ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-10-06 05:42 ]
      I saw a different Rudy than you did and my kid spent 16 months at the school he was at and never experienced anything even close to that, in fact just the opposite.  These are also first hand accounts, Not saying you didnt see what you did, I guess people change as they grow and mature.  I am definitely a different person than I was 10 or 15 years ago.

      Sorry that you get so angry with people who disagree with you, doesnt mean you are wrong, just a different point of view.
      Me?  Oh, I'm not angry.  Sometimes I use capitals for emphasis, but I'm not angry.

      Anyway, what's germane to the discussion is that your child went to the "program," but you didn't.  I worked for years at two separate facilities, one with Mr. Bentz.  I can tell you that what goes on behind closed doors is a far cry from what is available for public consumption.

      The children are given harsh consequences for "bad mouthing" the program or the staff.  I would bet that your kid would refrain from doing so while there and after he got out as well to avoid being sent back or not believed.

      I think it's safe to say that I've had infinitely more personal contact with this man than you, or your kid, for that matter, have had.  I have interacted with him in the context of the program and in the course of normal life outside of the facility.  Let there be no doubt but that this man has some severe interpersonal problems to say the least.

      I don't doubt for a second that he presented to you as a nice and caring person, but, honestly, you never even scratched the surface with him.  I have heard a lot of stories from former staff and students over the years about his abuse, both verbal and physical, and I have seen it with my own two eyes.  In fact, his outrageous and abusive behavior in the name of "therapy" is what ultimately caused me to leave the facility where I worked (not to mention the horrid revelations induced by a few scotches).

      So, please, do continue to post your opinions/impressions, but be aware that you have little or no true knowledge or experience with this fellow, while some of us know exactly what he's all about...
      I am not saying I knew him more or less than anyone else.  No one would really know him unless they were with him for his entire life.  We all saw snap shots... me on and off for 16 months...my kid more so for 16 months...you saw him for the time you did and each of us formed an impression from our exposure.  My kid is over 18 and isnt afraid to go back and talks openly about the good and bad.  He might have held back his good side from you and his bad side from me, but over time your true side comes out and if its bad you will end up in jail eventually.

      So, please, do continue to post your opinions/impressions, but be aware that we all have little or no true knowledge or experience with this fellow, while some of us feel we know exactly what he's all about we really dont
      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11797&start=60#p138332) on 06 Oct 2005 15:34:
      Quote from: "TheWho"
      Quote
      On 2005-10-06 14:52:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
      I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong.  You saw snapshots, I saw real-life up-close reality, and so did these other folks.  You're head is in the sand.

      What we're talking about here aren't normally "jailable" offenses, but rather a reflection of moral terpitude and lack of ethics.

      Again, not everyone who deserves to be in jail ends up there.  For instance, did you know that Rudy Bentz, while driving drunk, struck and killed a man with his vehicle?  He's a vehicular manslaughterer (this is a proven fact admitted by Rudy many times over many years), yet he never went to jail.

      So much for your "theory."
      He made a mistake and he paid for it.  We discussed this in one of the groups we attended with my child, Rudy brought it up as an example of what drugs and alcohol can do to a persons life if left un checked.  This just further proves that there are consequences to every action if it continues.  Yes I saw snap shots as I mentioned, we all did.  My kid was there 16 months, which you failed to read.  So you condem everyone in N.A. and A.A. for their past mistakes, interesting, at least they are working on improving their lives and dealing with their past. People like you are the reason they have closed meetings,as they should, its hard enough for some people as it is without worrying where their story will end up.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 03:37:20 PM
      Those posts Whooter wrote about RB's show how full of it he is. I attended Cedu during RB's tenure. So have others on this and other fora. I can attest to the veracity of these occurrences.  I personally know people who went to CEDU before during and after my time who would verify this.  (Several have in this forum as well.) I was fortunate he didn't emotionally terrorize me as much as others. (I'm a girl.) But these disclosures were COMMON amongst staff. Nothing was off limits... to disturbing, inappropriate details. In the RB case, right down to the contraption. For Whooter to deny all this - well. It shows exactly how ignorant or malevolent he is. Ignorant if fooled. Malevolent if lying.  

      How does Whooter propose we tell? The phones are locked in offices. We are in the mountains. Our calls and letters are monitored. It is their words against ours'.

      In fact, I distinctly remember when asking my parents --when they came in person every three months for a few hours on campus--to release me from that place. I did not give them any details because I knew it would come back to haunt me if they refused. Not just a little bit, but severe emotional trauma via raps. I may as well wear a bull's eye.

      After parent visits, some would waffle.  Thus, parents' were reinculcated with the "deadinsaneorinjail" lie after the visit.

      There are some funny stories about older students acting as tour guides to parents and the big BS show they were expected to give. Inside, they were screaming, "Run for Your Lives!"
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 03:45:21 PM
      Thanks for the work, Ursus.  That should answer Samaras question about whether Rudy and I are BFF.  This shows he is a guy I met (head Master) while my daughter attended ASR.  Every parent gets to know him on the same level.

      I think it is important not to assume.  Its always good to go back and look at the facts or the original posts.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 09, 2010, 03:51:11 PM
      ASR does not have an abuse hotline and no child can use the phone freely to report anything to anyone.  Whooter knows this.  Whooter has actually stated that there should not be an abuse hotline at programs because, if a kid called it, the "abuse hotline operator could talk dirty to them".

      He went on to say that the kid should report the abuse to the abusers (program staff) and that they would always handle the situation correctly.  See?  No need for a silly phone to report silly abuse.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 03:55:20 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      How does Whooter propose we tell? The phones are locked in offices. We are in the mountains. Our calls and letters are monitored. It is their words against ours'.

      It had changed a bit from when you were in the program.  My daughter had access to phones and we spoke each week without the call being monitored.  She received all her letters from me and I received hers.  The only time I remember them stepping in was when I brought her some clothes and one top contained sparkles and they didnt allow it and I had to take it back with me.  They had a problem with sparkley stuff for some reason.

      From a parents perspective Rudy seemed like a good guy and my daughter didnt have a problem with him either.  So that is how I based my opinion of him.  Thats first and second hand information.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 04:18:32 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      In fact, I distinctly remember when asking my parents --when they came in person every three months for a few hours on campus--to release me from that place. I did not give them any details because I knew it would come back to haunt me if they refused. Not just a little bit, but severe emotional trauma via raps. I may as well wear a bull's eye.

      I think this shows the big difference between CEDU and ASR.  There was only one kid who asked to go home out of my childs peer group.  The parents gave in and took her out.  But my daughter and the rest didn’t complain about it.  We were there for more than a few hours.  We spent the day and joined in the wrap up at the end of the day (they had a name for it) with all the kids in the big room (great Room?).

      They announced who could watch the movie, who was on restriction and what duties each group had.  It was far from a secretive place.

      Hearing some of the stories about CEDU over the years here,  I can see why they shut down and were not too successful.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 04:20:21 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 04:21:09 PM
      Rudy didn't have a problem with most girls. In fact, we got along well and he never targeted me. But - he is notorious for a reason. I was in the raps for his favorites. And of course he was nice to parents! They all did that tap dance. I've read many posts from many people (not to mention people I know off site) - we all share these memories. (Even the ones who are pro-program.) Staff repeated their disclosures multiple times. Young staff did it with shame. Older staff did it with bravado. Repeated disclosures is why so many of us know these stories. I have been very very circumspect about  staff and their stories. I don't know why I feel the need to protect them, because it was absolutely unethical to share them.  (And shows lousy screening by HR.) Same way I won't call out kids for their disclosures.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 04:25:22 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Rudy didn't have a problem with most girls. In fact, we got along well and he never targeted me. But - he is notorious for a reason. I was in the raps for his favorites. And of course he was nice to parents! They all did that tap dance. I've read many posts from many people (not to mention people I know off site) - we all share these memories. (Even the ones who are pro-program.) Staff repeated their disclosures multiple times. Young staff did it with shame. Older staff did it with bravado. Repeated disclosures is why so many of us know these stories. I have been very very circumspect about  staff and their stories. I don't know why I feel the need to protect them, because it was absolutely unethical to share them.  (And shows lousy screening by HR.) Same way I won't call out kids for their disclosures.

      Like I said, I didnt see Rudy behind closed doors.  I only reported from my perspective and what I heard from my daughter and others there.  I was impressed at the time that he talked about his short comings and an accident that lead to the death (that he caused) of another human being in front of strangers.  But sure he could be a total different person with the door closed.  My daughter never saw that side of him.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 04:38:20 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 09, 2010, 04:42:15 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Like I said, I didnt see Rudy behind closed doors.

      Which is what I've been saying all along.  You cannot, no matter how much knowledge you think you have, understand what it's like to be subjected to this kind of "therapy".  Ever.  We have a different vantage point.  We can pick up on the subtleties of the loaded language and glossy advertisements.  We can put it in a context that you'll never be able to get.

      Quote
       But sure he could be a total different person with the door closed.  My daughter never saw that side of him.

      That you know of.  Maybe she didn't, but you don't really know.
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 09, 2010, 04:43:29 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: deja vu strippers on June 09, 2010, 04:53:11 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30664&p=366224#p366224 > Thread moved

      .....
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 05:01:51 PM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Like I said, I didnt see Rudy behind closed doors.

      Which is what I've been saying all along.  You cannot, no matter how much knowledge you think you have, understand what it's like to be subjected to this kind of "therapy".  Ever.  We have a different vantage point.  We can pick up on the subtleties of the loaded language and glossy advertisements.  We can put it in a context that you'll never be able to get.

      Quote
       But sure he could be a total different person with the door closed.  My daughter never saw that side of him.

      That you know of.  Maybe she didn't, but you don't really know.

      Yes and maybe he changed.  You really dont know.  No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.
      You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 05:06:16 PM
      You are right.  We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent.  Because we don't stick our kids in programs. But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents.  We know that quite well.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 05:37:14 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

      Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

      Quote
      But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

      Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that.  I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.

      You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 05:48:11 PM
      Uh, Whooter do you know how many people cherrio'd the program after they graduated only to recant it later?  Two words: Longitudinal Studies. It's called brainwash.   I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 09, 2010, 06:18:22 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Uh, Whooter do you know how many people cherrio'd the program after they graduated only to recant it later? Two words: Longitudinal Studies.
      That’s what I am talking about, Samara.  The studies will show how effective the places are and we don’t have to have this back and forth.  The studies I have seen show the programs to be about 80% effective.  Which program was studied and what were the results?  Do you have a link to the outcome studies?

      Quote
      It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.
      I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing.  The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits.  We all agree that abuse is not acceptable.  The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred.  So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not?  That didn’t come out very clear to me.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Awake on June 09, 2010, 06:55:50 PM
      As funny as this video is it is very similar to the kind of mind control, brainwashing, cult what have you that did occur at Cedu. You may laugh but many will identify greatly with this.



      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E)



      When it is real tho... not that funny.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 08:05:33 PM
      There are no longitudinal studies. That's my point.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Ursus on June 09, 2010, 08:14:13 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      There are no longitudinal studies. That's my point.
      Yep. IIRC, the "study" Whooter always likes to cite is a questionaire type thing that had 17 preselected students say how they felt about the program shortly after graduation and about a year later. Not surprisingly, there was a higher response rate from parents.  :D
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 08:16:06 PM
      Whooter: Why are you here? You live here at Fornits, and the only thing you do is poke at program survivors. Why would you spend your time doing it? It is sadistic. And non sensical. If I thought a site was full of hooey, you could not pay me to live there.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: elanasshole on June 09, 2010, 08:51:51 PM
      Quote from: "Samara"
      Whooter: Why are you here? You live here at Fornits, and the only thing you do is poke at program survivors. Why would you spend your time doing it? It is sadistic. And non sensical. If I thought a site was full of hooey, you could not pay me to live there.

      @ Samara :  Whooter:  Why are you here?  Whooter works on his play-doh, pay dough and pedo parenting skills.[/size]
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Paul St. John on June 09, 2010, 08:55:13 PM
      Quote
      It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

      I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing. The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits. We all agree that abuse is not acceptable. The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred. So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not? That didn’t come out very clear to me.


      Since, you seem interested, I think I understand.. I hope the two of you do not mind me interjecting.

      The following 3 points I think were made, all of which I personally, think are valid.



      1.  Whether you are for or against programs does not necessarily dictate whether or not, you will be successful in life.

      2. Whether or not, you do well after leaving a program is also not necessarily evidence of anything in regards to the program, because there is no certainty that the program was causal.

      3.  Even if you do, do well after leaving a program, that does not justify the abuse that occurred in the program.

      It was a bit unclear, but that is whta I took from it.  Samara, I m not trying to speak for you or anything.  Sorry, if my interpretation is incorrect.

      Paul
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Awake on June 09, 2010, 08:58:47 PM
      Quote from: "Paul St. John"
      Quote
      It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

      I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing. The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits. We all agree that abuse is not acceptable. The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred. So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not? That didn’t come out very clear to me.


      Since, you seem interested, I think I understand.. I hope the two of you do not mind me interjecting.

      The following 3 points I think were made, both of which I personally, think are valid.



      1.  Whether you are for or against programs does not necessarily dictate whether or not, you will be successful in life.

      2. Whether or not, you do well after leaving a program is also not necessarily evidence of anything in regards to the program, because there is no certainty that the program was causal.

      3.  Even if you do, do well after leaving a program, that does not justify the abuse that occurred in the program.

      It was a bit unclear, but that is whta I took from it.  Samara, I m not trying to speak for you or anything.  Sorry, if my interpretation is incorrect.

      Paul







      I don't know if you speak for her but you took the words right outta my mouth. :nods:
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Samara on June 09, 2010, 09:03:43 PM
      Exactly. Successful, not successful, pain in the ass child of the world - it is wrong.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 10, 2010, 10:02:43 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.

      You're right.  I've never abdicated my parental responsibilities as you did.  I have, however, successfully raised two grown children, one of which scared the life out of me for years on end.  Somehow, we managed without the abusive, emotional blackmail tactics of programs.  I knew from my experience inside programs that the worst thing I could do for her would be to send her off to a mindfuck.  As much as she scared me, it was MY job to help guide her through it.  It was the single hardest thing I've ever done, but sooooooo worth it.  I never broke the sacred trust with her the way program parents do when they send them away.  She and I both knew that I couldn't save her, she had to save herself with her family's help and the help of some true professionals.  She and I both knew that forcing her to change would've resulted in temporary changes that wouldn't mean anything, not to mention the aforementioned loss of trust.


      Quote
      You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.

      You need to man up and cite where you think I said anything about exaggerating my experiences in Straight.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 10, 2010, 10:04:44 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Samara"
      You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

      Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

      Quote
      But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

      Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that.  I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
      You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



      ...

      I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 10, 2010, 10:17:26 AM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.

      You're right.  I've never abdicated my parental responsibilities as you did.  I have, however, successfully raised two grown children, one of which scared the life out of me for years on end.  Somehow, we managed without the abusive, emotional blackmail tactics of programs.  I knew from my experience inside programs that the worst thing I could do for her would be to send her off to a mindfuck.  As much as she scared me, it was MY job to help guide her through it.  It was the single hardest thing I've ever done, but sooooooo worth it.  I never broke the sacred trust with her the way program parents do when they send them away.  She and I both knew that I couldn't save her, she had to save herself with her family's help and the help of some true professionals.  She and I both knew that forcing her to change would've resulted in temporary changes that wouldn't mean anything, not to mention the aforementioned loss of trust.


      Quote
      You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.

      You need to man up and cite where you think I said anything about exaggerating my experiences in Straight.

      I am glad your child is doing well as is mine.  I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.

      You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 10, 2010, 10:20:50 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.


      Like I said....we all knew you'd weasel out of it.  I gave links of what I see as you defending JRC.  You don't agree that you were defending them so now you're using that as an excuse to back out on showing where you think I admitted anything like what you said.  

      Weasel, weasel, weasel.

      C'mon.....just this ONCE be a man and back up what you say.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 10, 2010, 10:34:26 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Samara"
      You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

      Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

      Quote
      But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

      Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that.  I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
      You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



      ...

      I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

      Notice, maruska, how Whooter completely avoided your very good question in order to attack Anne instead.  He feels he can win that one, but answering your question will only expose him for what he really is - a shill and phony "regular parent."  This is just another example of how Whooter gets trapped in his own lies and then just tries to ignore it and pretend it never happened.
      Title: the parent determines the path?
      Post by: Ursus on June 10, 2010, 10:40:57 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.
      Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

      Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 10, 2010, 10:43:49 AM
      Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.


      Like I said....we all knew you'd weasel out of it.  I gave links of what I see as you defending JRC.  You don't agree that you were defending them so now you're using that as an excuse to back out on showing where you think I admitted anything like what you said.  

      Weasel, weasel, weasel.

      C'mon.....just this ONCE be a man and back up what you say.

      You can post all the links you want and call people names and stamp your feet, but until you address the issue we cant move forward.

      Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

      "...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

      You havent provided proof of this yet.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 10, 2010, 10:51:24 AM
      Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Samara"
      You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

      Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

      Quote
      But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

      Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that.  I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
      You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



      ...

      I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

      Notice, maruska, how Whooter completely avoided your very good question in order to attack Anne instead.  He feels he can win that one, but answering your question will only expose him for what he really is - a shill and phony "regular parent."  This is just another example of how Whooter gets trapped in his own lies and then just tries to ignore it and pretend it never happened.


      :) Oh no, I think he needs just a little more time to respond:) ...I am sure he will respond..

       Whooter?
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 10, 2010, 10:58:56 AM
      Sure, he'll respond alright.  Just not to you substantively.  He has already admitted in his own logged posts that he's not just a 'regular parent' and that he's financially involved in the TTI.  He can't erase it (because he sold his user account and no longer can edit his old posts) and he can't effectively deny it, so he does the only thing he can - shift the focus to Anne (or RB, or me, or samara, or Deborah, or Ginger, or psy or whomever else is available at the moment to use as a foil).

      I'd like to see you keep at it for a while though and see what happens.  It will be a lesson for all new readers who might have otherwise been duped by him.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 10, 2010, 11:11:25 AM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

      Sorry about all the trolls here today.  I did miss your post, but your posts are one of the ones that I follow because you seem to be more open minded and accepting than most here,  so I would have responded eventually.
      I mainly talk about the kids my daughter and I met while she was in wilderness and at ASR.  But I also have seen stories from others (outside fornits) who talk on their blogs about their experiences.  My daughter has connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR which spans several peer groups.  I have read blogs and facebook posts of kids who did not do well also from several programs.  So I have seen both sides of the coin so to speak.

      One can really gain a sense of which programs are good and which are not by looking at perspectives and I find that interesting.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 10, 2010, 11:16:08 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"

      Sorry about all the trolls here today.


       :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:



      (http://http://nonrhotic.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/kettle-black.jpg)
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 10, 2010, 11:17:59 AM
      So, when we distill it down, Whooter's "experience" with program kids is just reading the internet.  Yeah, he's an expert alright.

      Where's Danny B II when you need him?  
      Quote from: "Danny B II"
      Samara, please don't try to act like you understand Elan through posts of others, that is the problem I have here.
      Danny, are you going to accept Whooter's posts based on his only experience with programs being "reading blogs on the internet"?  Or do you have the same "double standard" problem that Whooter has?   Man, you bash everyone else for not having experienced things directly but Whooter, who admits he knows nothing but what he reads on the internet in the posts of others, gets a complete free pass and your adulation to boot?  

      Keep digging, maruska.  Ask him about that fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry.'  Those answers I'd love to see.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: maruska on June 10, 2010, 11:39:01 AM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

      Sorry about all the trolls here today.  I did miss your post, but your posts are one of the ones that I follow because you seem to be more open minded and accepting than most here,  so I would have responded eventually.
      I mainly talk about the kids my daughter and I met while she was in wilderness and at ASR.  But I also have seen stories from others (outside fornits) who talk on their blogs about their experiences.  My daughter has connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR which spans several peer groups.  I have read blogs and facebook posts of kids who did not do well also from several programs.  So I have seen both sides of the coin so to speak.

      One can really gain a sense of which programs are good and which are not by looking at perspectives and I find that interesting.



      ...

      I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

      And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.

      Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)


      And lastly...what is DJ talking about?  What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? "   What does that mean?
      Title: Re: the parent determines the path?
      Post by: Whooter on June 10, 2010, 11:55:13 AM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

      Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...

      Their own paths in life, yes, I believe as parents we need assist them and help them find themselves and ultimately their own path in life.  It is also our duty to mold and shape them (set a good example, potty train them, teach them good manners and set moral standards, discipline them etc.) as you mentioned.

      When it comes to making some life decisions it is up to the parents to intercede and make decisions for the child.  So parents, when faced with a crisis with their child, will choose to seek outside help and others will try to ride it out and hope for the best.  Both of these are decisions that affect the child’s path in life along with several other various medical and academic decisions the parents make.



      ...
      Title: Re: the parent determines the path?
      Post by: Ursus on June 10, 2010, 12:16:26 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.
      Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

      Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...
      Their own paths in life, yes, I believe as parents we need assist them and help them find themselves and ultimately their own path in life. It is also our duty to mold and shape them (set a good example, potty train them, teach them good manners and set moral standards, discipline them etc.) as you mentioned.
      Oh, just so we're clear: *I* was NOT the original poster who spoke of our "duty to mold and shape our children." You were.

      I mentioned that this was your comment. The way you've worded your response above implies that *I* might have been the originator of such a... er... concept, and I just wanna make sure that any such delusions go no further.

      --------------

      Lest there be any ambiguity 'bout this, here is the original post, emphasis added:

      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12694&p=365820#p365820) on 07 Jun 2010 07:49:
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.

      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.



      ...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 10, 2010, 12:28:23 PM
      Quote from: "maruska"
      I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

      And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.
      I know exactly what you mean.  If I didn’t have a need for programs I would never send my child to one.  Take hospitals for example, people get all types of diseases from blood transfusions, viruses in operating rooms and germs on the waiting room.  I don’t think I could find one hospital in the country I would want any of my family members in.  But if I were faced with the decision of having to take them to one I would do it.
      I tried getting people interested in rating programs here on fornits but no one was interested and many got outright upset when I posted programs I thought were good.  So I will take a pass on naming any for both out sakes.  As far as the blogs go I don’t keep a list of favorites.   I sometimes google a program name or key word and discover blogs that way.

      Quote
      Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)
      There were a few that she has kept in contact with, but with this facebook program that she uses she has connected with lots of people she lost touch with including staff.  This also gave her an opportunity to meet other people who went thru ASR who she never met before.



      Quote
      And lastly...what is DJ talking about? What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? " What does that mean?
      Ha,Ha,Ha oh boy, you will have to go speak to DJ about that.  If you look at the bottom of his posts you will see he has created a little altar (tongue in cheek) to me in his footer.  His project is my history here on fornits and trying to make his own sense out of various sound bites I have made over the years.  I couldn’t begin to explain them here for you because I dont remember most of them, but if you are interested you can go back and read via DJ’s links in his footer (just click on one).  But you need to go back several pages to understand the gist of the conversation so that they are understood in context if that interests you.



      ...
      Title: Re: the parent determines the path?
      Post by: Awake on June 10, 2010, 02:31:21 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.
      Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

      Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...
      Their own paths in life, yes, I believe as parents we need assist them and help them find themselves and ultimately their own path in life. It is also our duty to mold and shape them (set a good example, potty train them, teach them good manners and set moral standards, discipline them etc.) as you mentioned.
      Oh, just so we're clear: *I* was NOT the original poster who spoke of our "duty to mold and shape our children." You were.

      I mentioned that this was your comment. The way you've worded your response above implies that *I* might have been the originator of such a... er... concept, and I just wanna make sure that any such delusions go no further.

      --------------

      Lest there be any ambiguity 'bout this, here is the original post, emphasis added:

      Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12694&p=365820#p365820) on 07 Jun 2010 07:49:
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.

      As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?
      Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.



      ...


      I have a problem understanding how we are to apply therapy ethically in the case of the TTI. When I hear this action as a justification for a child who is ‘at risk’ it seems to me that most would understand  an ‘intervention’ as something that prevents a specific behavior or situation that poses an immediate threat.  Once the specific behavior or threat stops, then treatment should be an option and the patient should be free to go outside of the therapeutic environment.  I see terms like ‘at risk’ ‘intervention’ and ‘treatment’ being used without clarity in the TTI, and I believe intervention is a severe response that should be reserved only for the most dire circumstances.  When is a teen ‘not at risk’? Seems to me that programs are denying looking at the truth to support retention, made more obvious by the suggestion that lack of completing a program signifies incomplete treatment and the failure of the teen.

      What I see is an abuse in this area by the TTI. Intervention is coupled with, not just treatment of the symptom, but justifies the molding and shaping of the entire personality and attitude displayed by the ‘projected participant’ or ‘projectipant’ that is being forced through the process.

      To maintain this concept that children should naturally accept a position of powerlessness and to not just  allow, but want their own feelings and desires to be dictated to them until they reach 18 at which point they are supposed to be in control of what they want in life…. Well I think this best exemplifies my feelings for that type of thinking, and the potential for far reaching negative effects of these unregulated, vaguely understood processes we are putting kids through.



      Assuming that a relationship between two people was homeostatic in the sense that it was a governed, self-corrective system, the idea began to develop in the project that the "governors" of this system were the people involved in the relationship. Just as the governor in a cybernetic system controls the range of the elements in that system, so it began to be suggested that people in a relationship control the range of each other's behavior. This idea provided a function for the double bind which included both participants rather than merely the individual; the double bind could be seen as a tactic in the interchange between two people as they each attempted to gain control of the range of the system.1 By imposing a double bind, a person can effectively prevent another from governing what sort of relationship they will have.



      This control idea was first presented in a memorandum by Haley in 1956 in an attempt to explain the peculiar behavior of the mothers of schizophrenics. This memorandum suggested that ordinarily two people work out areas of their life together where each, to the satisfaction of both, is in control of what sort of relationship they will have. "This could be called successful setting of the limits of the relationship.  However, they may come into conflict and settle the matter by termination of the relationship.    Or they may become involved in a constant struggle over who is to determine what type of relationship they will have, as in the schizophrenogenic situation."  


      Psychotherapy



      There is probably no more confused area in psychiatry than the field of changing people. There is confusion over what needs to be changed, confusion over the nature of the problem and the history of the problem, and confusion over investigation of etiology and tactics for inducing change.  Central to this confusion has been the simple assumption that what the patient needs is to understand himself better and become more aware of the ideas he would rather not become aware of. All distortions of perception, emotional distress, and behavioral symptoms are presumed to disappear with such awareness; despite considerable evidence to the contrary and despite the occurrence of change without awareness and awareness without change.

       The contribution of the project in this area was the enlargement of the description to include both patient and therapist and the introduction of levels into the analysis of the interchange. With this shift, other factors in the interchange appeared more relevant than self-awareness as a cause of change. In particular, the variety of paradoxes faced by a patient in the therapy setting as long as he continued with his symptoms appeared to be causal to change. Additionally, when the patient is forced to change his behavior as a result of therapy, he requires his intimates to change their behavior in relation to him. As a result, he sets up a new network of relationships which require him to persist in his new mode of living. From this point of view, individual therapy uses the individual patient as a lever to change a family system, and family therapy is an attempt to induce change in a system by dealing with all intimates at once.
      Whether the patient faces a therapist alone or conjointly with his family, he faces a situation which provides him ways to behave differently and by the imposition of paradox forces him to do so, with a consequent shift in his subjective experiences.


      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)




      .
      Title: Re: the parent determines the path?
      Post by: Anne Bonney on June 11, 2010, 10:02:01 AM
      Quote from: "Awake"

      I have a problem understanding how we are to apply therapy ethically in the case of the TTI. When I hear this action as a justification for a child who is ‘at risk’ it seems to me that most would understand  an ‘intervention’ as something that prevents a specific behavior or situation that poses an immediate threat.  Once the specific behavior or threat stops, then treatment should be an option and the patient should be free to go outside of the therapeutic environment.  I see terms like ‘at risk’ ‘intervention’ and ‘treatment’ being used without clarity in the TTI, and I believe intervention is a severe response that should be reserved only for the most dire circumstances.  When is a teen ‘not at risk’? Seems to me that programs are denying looking at the truth to support retention, made more obvious by the suggestion that lack of completing a program signifies incomplete treatment and the failure of the teen.

      What I see is an abuse in this area by the TTI. Intervention is coupled with, not just treatment of the symptom, but justifies the molding and shaping of the entire personality and attitude displayed by the ‘projected participant’ or ‘projectipant’ that is being forced through the process.

      To maintain this concept that children should naturally accept a position of powerlessness and to not just  allow, but want their own feelings and desires to be dictated to them until they reach 18 at which point they are supposed to be in control of what they want in life…. Well I think this best exemplifies my feelings for that type of thinking, and the potential for far reaching negative effects of these unregulated, vaguely understood processes we are putting kids through.



      Assuming that a relationship between two people was homeostatic in the sense that it was a governed, self-corrective system, the idea began to develop in the project that the "governors" of this system were the people involved in the relationship. Just as the governor in a cybernetic system controls the range of the elements in that system, so it began to be suggested that people in a relationship control the range of each other's behavior. This idea provided a function for the double bind which included both participants rather than merely the individual; the double bind could be seen as a tactic in the interchange between two people as they each attempted to gain control of the range of the system.1 By imposing a double bind, a person can effectively prevent another from governing what sort of relationship they will have.



      This control idea was first presented in a memorandum by Haley in 1956 in an attempt to explain the peculiar behavior of the mothers of schizophrenics. This memorandum suggested that ordinarily two people work out areas of their life together where each, to the satisfaction of both, is in control of what sort of relationship they will have. "This could be called successful setting of the limits of the relationship.  However, they may come into conflict and settle the matter by termination of the relationship.    Or they may become involved in a constant struggle over who is to determine what type of relationship they will have, as in the schizophrenogenic situation."  


      Psychotherapy



      There is probably no more confused area in psychiatry than the field of changing people. There is confusion over what needs to be changed, confusion over the nature of the problem and the history of the problem, and confusion over investigation of etiology and tactics for inducing change.  Central to this confusion has been the simple assumption that what the patient needs is to understand himself better and become more aware of the ideas he would rather not become aware of. All distortions of perception, emotional distress, and behavioral symptoms are presumed to disappear with such awareness; despite considerable evidence to the contrary and despite the occurrence of change without awareness and awareness without change.

       The contribution of the project in this area was the enlargement of the description to include both patient and therapist and the introduction of levels into the analysis of the interchange. With this shift, other factors in the interchange appeared more relevant than self-awareness as a cause of change. In particular, the variety of paradoxes faced by a patient in the therapy setting as long as he continued with his symptoms appeared to be causal to change. Additionally, when the patient is forced to change his behavior as a result of therapy, he requires his intimates to change their behavior in relation to him. As a result, he sets up a new network of relationships which require him to persist in his new mode of living. From this point of view, individual therapy uses the individual patient as a lever to change a family system, and family therapy is an attempt to induce change in a system by dealing with all intimates at once.
      Whether the patient faces a therapist alone or conjointly with his family, he faces a situation which provides him ways to behave differently and by the imposition of paradox forces him to do so, with a consequent shift in his subjective experiences.


      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)




      .

       :bump:
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Troll Control on June 11, 2010, 01:04:40 PM
      Whooter, why should maruska ask me to explain why you wrote this? (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=23299&p=283976&hilit=+fiduciary#p283976)

      I think we can all agree here that it's best to get an explanation from the author of the statement, no?

      So, maruska, instead of asking Whooter what I meant about his fiduciary interest in AEG, just ask him why he said he had one in the link above.  Maybe then he'll answer why he claimed a fiduciary interest then but denies it now.

      Obviously, he was either lying then or lying now.  We'd just like him to explain which statement is a lie and why he lied rather than be honest.
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Paul St. John on June 11, 2010, 02:15:00 PM
      I don't know if you speak for her but you took the words right outta my mouth.

      Bright minds...
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 11, 2010, 04:29:46 PM
      Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"
      Whooter, why should maruska ask me to explain why you wrote this? (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=23299&p=283976&hilit=+fiduciary#p283976)

      I think we can all agree here that it's best to get an explanation from the author of the statement, no?

      So, maruska, instead of asking Whooter what I meant about his fiduciary interest in AEG, just ask him why he said he had one in the link above.  Maybe then he'll answer why he claimed a fiduciary interest then but denies it now.

      Obviously, he was either lying then or lying now.  We'd just like him to explain which statement is a lie and why he lied rather than be honest.

      If you bothered to read your own link you would know why I cant explain it, because:

      I have a fiduciary duty which prevents me from speaking in any specific terms in this area and can only comment on information which is first made public by either party involved......

      Does that help at all?  LOL.  Sometimes I wonder if you even know what is going on.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 11, 2010, 04:42:25 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
      Post by: Whooter on June 11, 2010, 04:47:09 PM
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."


      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.



      ...
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 11, 2010, 04:50:56 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 11, 2010, 04:54:06 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
      Post by: Ursus on June 11, 2010, 08:08:17 PM
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
      Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?
      Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Post by: Joel on June 11, 2010, 08:27:59 PM
      Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
      Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
      Post by: Awake on June 11, 2010, 08:36:26 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
      Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?



      Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)


      .
      Title: And Now for Something Completely Different
      Post by: Ursus on June 11, 2010, 09:15:54 PM
      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
      Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?
      Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)
      Well... somehow I don't think Whooter intended to refer to Monty Python...

      (http://http://www.alexhopmann.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/cleese2.jpg)

      And Now for Something Completely Different (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRU6tQdyYqQ)[/list]

      (http://http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01443/Montydone_1443906c.jpg)
      Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
      Post by: Whooter on June 11, 2010, 09:30:03 PM
      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
      Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?



      Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)


      .


      do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".



      ...
      Title: Re: And Now for Something Completely Different
      Post by: Awake on June 11, 2010, 09:34:27 PM
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Awake"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "Whooter"
      Quote from: "Joel"
      Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
      Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
      Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?
      Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

      viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)
      Well... somehow I don't think Whooter intended to refer to Monty Python...

      (http://http://www.alexhopmann.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/cleese2.jpg)

        And Now for Something Completely Different (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRU6tQdyYqQ)[/list]

        (http://http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01443/Montydone_1443906c.jpg)



        Strangely, what comes to mind right now is the hostility toward humor, laughter, and being funny at Cedu as a way of’ hiding’ from yourself.  More recently I had read somewhere that laughter is the outward signal that represents the identification of something paradoxical in reality, or a sign of consciousness for the situation.

        …….. I don’t get it……..
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Awake on June 11, 2010, 09:45:02 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Awake"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Joel"
        Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
        Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
        Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?



        Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.


        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

        viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)


        .


        do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".



        ...


        are they not?  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)


        .
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Ursus on June 13, 2010, 11:57:09 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Awake"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Joel"
        Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."
        Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.
        Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?
        Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model)

        viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699)
        do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".
        I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

        Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Whooter on June 14, 2010, 07:04:13 AM
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

        Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

        Belittle or discredit?  What do you mean?  comments Like saying: survivors  are only happy because they are brainwashed? .... Or drank the Kool-aid?  .....Give them a few years and they will realize how abused they were?

        Oh wait that only applies to survivors who did well.  Ursus, I don’t think fornits posters, like yourself, would belittle or discredit these people.  Nor would they do this to program parents because that would impose a double standard.  I also dont think posters like yourself would point this out for just one of the groups and turning a blind eye to the others because this would make you complicit with the double standard.



        ...



        ...
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Ursus on June 14, 2010, 11:38:01 AM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

        Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.
        Belittle or discredit?  What do you mean?  comments Like saying: survivors  are only happy because they are brainwashed? .... Or drank the Kool-aid?  .....Give them a few years and they will realize how abused they were?
        Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.

        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Oh wait that only applies to survivors who did well.
        Not true. There are plenty who did not do well, yet still guzzle that Kool-aid all too gustily.  :D

        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Ursus, I don’t think fornits posters, like yourself, would belittle or discredit these people.  Nor would they do this to program parents because that would impose a double standard.  I also dont think posters like yourself would point this out for just one of the groups and turning a blind eye to the others because this would make you complicit with the double standard.
        I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Care to spell it out a bit more?
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Whooter on June 14, 2010, 01:18:35 PM
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.
        I believe this is what you tell yourself and what you need to believe because it would shake your world too much to realize the truth that most people do well in programs and move on with their lives.  If you ever tried to float this idea to any professional (or most people outside of fornits) you would be surprised by his/her response.



        ...
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Ursus on June 14, 2010, 02:05:09 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.
        I believe this is what you tell yourself and what you need to believe because it would shake your world too much to realize the truth that most people do well in programs and move on with their lives.  If you ever tried to float this idea to any professional (or most people outside of fornits) you would be surprised by his/her response.
        Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

        Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

        Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: Whooter on June 14, 2010, 05:21:50 PM
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.
        That was nice, Ursus, but we both know there is no propaganda being spewed and there is no intent to derail the thread.  This is your interpretation of information which goes against your thinking.  Again with the fatal consequences.  I am sure if this were public school you would be showing us photos of columbine high School trying to convince us that kids will die if you send them to public school.

        Quote
        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

        Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

        Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.
        I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there.  It was a terrible summer.  But the difference between you and me  is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time.   The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life.  You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn.  This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else’s) or the children being helped.

        I think it is good that you dig in and find out why your friend was hurt so bad and try to prevent others from getting hurt too.  But you need to gather more wide spread data, more of a balance so that you get a better perspective on what you are fighting.  You have reduced yourself to a point that you can discard a program if an employee worked previously at CEDU or you can toss aside a software program because IBM did business with the Germans in 1937.  This shows you are not really interested in finding the truth about how these individual programs work rather you just want a reason not to look too closely.  I think the reason for this is you will have to admit that they are graduating kids who are doing really well and the ones that don’t do well are the anomaly.

        I am also curious as to why would you not acknowledge that it is a good step for a program to open up a discussion with alumnus to gather feedback on the program?  I know from reading here on fornits that this would be a big step for a cult.  What is everyone afraid of?  Are you afraid that you will find out that these are not the big bad programs that you have created here on the forum?



        ...
        Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
        Post by: maruska on June 15, 2010, 04:19:16 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.
        That was nice, Ursus, but we both know there is no propaganda being spewed and there is no intent to derail the thread.  This is your interpretation of information which goes against your thinking.  Again with the fatal consequences.  I am sure if this were public school you would be showing us photos of columbine high School trying to convince us that kids will die if you send them to public school.

        Quote
        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

        Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

        Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.
        I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there.  It was a terrible summer.  But the difference between you and me  is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time.   The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life.  You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn.  This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else’s) or the children being helped.

        I think it is good that you dig in and find out why your friend was hurt so bad and try to prevent others from getting hurt too.  But you need to gather more wide spread data, more of a balance so that you get a better perspective on what you are fighting.  You have reduced yourself to a point that you can discard a program if an employee worked previously at CEDU or you can toss aside a software program because IBM did business with the Germans in 1937.  This shows you are not really interested in finding the truth about how these individual programs work rather you just want a reason not to look too closely.  I think the reason for this is you will have to admit that they are graduating kids who are doing really well and the ones that don’t do well are the anomaly.

        I am also curious as to why would you not acknowledge that it is a good step for a program to open up a discussion with alumnus to gather feedback on the program?  I know from reading here on fornits that this would be a big step for a cult.  What is everyone afraid of?  Are you afraid that you will find out that these are not the big bad programs that you have created here on the forum?



        ...

        Now I am confused again...would you explain what are you talking about?
         Did you work for a program? Or were you in a program as a child?
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: maruska on June 15, 2010, 04:31:01 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "maruska"
        I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

        And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.
        I know exactly what you mean.  If I didn’t have a need for programs I would never send my child to one.  Take hospitals for example, people get all types of diseases from blood transfusions, viruses in operating rooms and germs on the waiting room.  I don’t think I could find one hospital in the country I would want any of my family members in.  But if I were faced with the decision of having to take them to one I would do it.
        I tried getting people interested in rating programs here on fornits but no one was interested and many got outright upset when I posted programs I thought were good.  So I will take a pass on naming any for both out sakes.  As far as the blogs go I don’t keep a list of favorites.   I sometimes google a program name or key word and discover blogs that way.

        Quote
        Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)
        There were a few that she has kept in contact with, but with this facebook program that she uses she has connected with lots of people she lost touch with including staff.  This also gave her an opportunity to meet other people who went thru ASR who she never met before.



        Quote
        And lastly...what is DJ talking about? What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? " What does that mean?
        Ha,Ha,Ha oh boy, you will have to go speak to DJ about that.  If you look at the bottom of his posts you will see he has created a little altar (tongue in cheek) to me in his footer.  His project is my history here on fornits and trying to make his own sense out of various sound bites I have made over the years.  I couldn’t begin to explain them here for you because I dont remember most of them, but if you are interested you can go back and read via DJ’s links in his footer (just click on one).  But you need to go back several pages to understand the gist of the conversation so that they are understood in context if that interests you.



        ...

        You could not find one hospital in the country you would want any of your family members in?  I am sorry to hear that. I did not know the US health system is so terrible...move to Europe! You will find plenty of great hospitals here!

        As far as blogs...come one! Please, name a few! I really am not as good at finding them obviously  Thanks in advance!

        And regarding going back several pages, I do not have time for that...
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Whooter on June 15, 2010, 05:09:46 PM
        Quote from: "maruska"

        You could not find one hospital in the country you would want any of your family members in?  I am sorry to hear that. I did not know the US health system is so terrible...move to Europe! You will find plenty of great hospitals here!

        As far as blogs...come one! Please, name a few! I really am not as good at finding them obviously  Thanks in advance!

        And regarding going back several pages, I do not have time for that...

        The health Care we get here is good (well at least now, we will see what Obama care does lol), but the risk of infection and disease is very high for those entering or staying at a hospital because hospitals are not the cleanest places.  So if you can avoid them you should.  Europe is much worse off than we are…Link to an article (http://http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/europe%27s-dirty-hospitals/65048.aspx)

        I don’t really want to read back either but I think the point was that no one wants to place their child into a program any more than they would want to put their child into a hospital.  But the decision is based on need and we do what we have to to keep our families safe.



        ...
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: maruska on June 15, 2010, 05:31:30 PM
        I do not want to make this to a pissing contest , but this is interesting reading too:

        http://www.americansmadandangry.org/ (http://www.americansmadandangry.org/)



        and the blogs, Whooter...pretty pretty please:))

        and I really do not understand this (from your conversation with Ursus):
        I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time....what are talking about here?!.."my time there"? does that mean you were in a program, too?? ..as a staff?
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Whooter on June 15, 2010, 05:43:54 PM
        Quote from: "maruska"
        I do not want to make this to a pissing contest , but this is interesting reading too:

        http://www.americansmadandangry.org/ (http://www.americansmadandangry.org/)

        That is interesting.  I think we can both agree that avoiding hospitals if at all possible is a good thing.



        Quote
        and the blogs, Whooter...pretty pretty please:))
        Sorry, I dont have any active links for you, but when I do I will pass them along, promise.

        Quote
        and also this:
        I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time....what are talking about here?

        Oh,  I was with a group for the summer when I was young and one of the kids I was with and made friends with was badly hurt after having a fight with a counselor.  



        ...
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Ursus on June 15, 2010, 07:54:02 PM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "maruska"
        and also this:

        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?
        I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time. The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life. You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn. This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else's) or the children being helped.
        what are talking about here?
        Oh,  I was with a group for the summer when I was young and one of the kids I was with and made friends with was badly hurt after having a fight with a counselor.
        I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?

        Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:

        "You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."[/list]
        Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Whooter on June 15, 2010, 09:59:43 PM
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?
        You get upset when I compare programs to summer camp yet it is acceptable to compare programs to Russian gulags and cults?  Hmmm


        Quote
        Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:
        "You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."
        Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.

        Look above (previous post) where you said:
        “One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

        But even without the quote it is evident, via your postings,  that you cannot relate to kids who do well in programs.



        ...
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: DannyB II on June 15, 2010, 10:07:11 PM
        Ursus wrote:
        Quote
        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.
        Jeesh, you have no personal experience with fraudulent advertising that I have read and you have no personal experience of the "all too fatal consequences". I could be wrong, did your parents feel deceived and was their a death at Hyde while you were there.

        Quote
        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."
        This is not something you are using any energy to find out, that's for sure. So what is this a rhetorical statement/question ??????

        Quote
        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.
        You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
        Hmmmmm.........drama.

        Quote
        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me.......
        You said it.....IF

        Quote
        I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper
        .
        What I have seen of you over the last 6 months I would agree with this under one condition you tone down the drama....you are looking deeper into it right now, although I don't feel all this heartfelt emotion your trying to convey.

        Quote
        Doncha think?
        It depends......

        danny
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Awake on June 15, 2010, 10:26:20 PM
        I think anyone at Cedu will relate to this.  It doesn’t fill in all the gaps of course, Cedu was a hodgepodge of things. Overall though I do think using terms like brainwashing or cults signifies a lack of terminology for something that has slipped unchallenged into our society.  I feel this terminology translates neatly into the epistemology of family therapy theory, cybernetics, and Double Bind theory, which historically has an appropriate connection with therapeutic communities.   viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)




        BRAINWASHING: Dysfunctional groups, cults, sects and Mind Control:  AN EXPLORATION OF DYSFUNCTIONAL GROUPS, SECTS AND CULTS.


        Some Broad Definitions

        ……


        Cults.


        This is a negative term. It generally refers to a group or sect that has sinister aspects to it, such as attempts at coercion. In various ways they are dysfunctional, unhealthy groups.



        CULTS



        There are four main types: Religious, Political, Therapy/educational, and Commercial.


        They do not carry out brainwashing. Brainwashing is overt, coercive and it is plain who the enemy is. Rather they carry out mind control or thought reform. Here, the perpetrators are



        a) regarded as friends or peers making the candidate less defensive.


        b) The candidate participates unwittingly with their controllers, for example by giving private information.


        c) The new belief system is internalised into a new identity structure.


        d) The group may use hypnotic processes and group dynamics.




        THE COMPONENTS OF MIND CONTROL



        1) BEHAVIOUR CONTROL



        By regulating the environment:



        a) Where you live


        b) What clothing you wear


        c) What food you eat


        d) How much sleep you have


        e) What jobs and goals you have.


        f) Rituals and indoctrination


        g) Restriction of free time – sometimes an apocalyptic sense of urgency


        h) Financial dependency


        i) Permission required to do things, i.e. phone relative


        j) Suppression of individuality to group conformity


        k) Pyramidical authoritarian command structure


        l) Use of punishment and reward, often keeping members off balance – praised one day, punished the next.


        m) Use of mannerisms of speech and posture


        n) Regulation of interpersonal relationships – emotional allegiance to leader – no real friends because if the person leaves they may take others with them.


        o) Group activities which creates privacy deprivation and thwarts reflection.




        2) THOUGHT CONTROL



        By indoctrination, such that beliefs are internalised.




        a) Group has the Truth – the only map of reality. This moulds and filters incoming data. The doctrine is reality, the most effective being those which are unverifiable – global yet vague but apparently consistent. Reality is externally referenced via an authority figure and other members who are looked to for direction and meaning.


        b) Black and white thinking – Group is good, outsiders bad. Thus good vs evil, Us vs them, Spiritual vs physical. No pluralism or multi perspective taking.


        c) Group beliefs are scientifically proven and explain everything


        d) Loaded language. E.g. A Cain and Abel problem


        e) Blocking out critical thoughts by:


        i) Denial: “What you say is not happening at all”
        ii) Rationalisation: “It is happening for a good reason”
        iii) Justification: “It is happening because it ought to”
        iv) Wishful thinking: “I would like it to be true so maybe it is”
        v) Demonising: “Lies put about by Satan/Persecution that we would expect”.
        vi) Thought stopping: By chanting/ tongue speaking
        vii) Punishment: Being given the silent treatment or transfer to another group e.t.c.




        3) EMOTIONAL CONTROL


        Emotions are controlled by the use of:



        a) Guilt: in order to produce conformity and compliance. Guilt takes a number of aspects:
        i) Historical guilt. – We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima
        ii) Identity guilt – “I’m not living up to my potential”
        iii) Past guilt – “I cheated on a test” A persons past is rewritten: everything is dark
        iv) Social guilt – People are dying of starvation
        v) Quality guilt- not meeting standards


        b) Fear: By creating an outside enemy – unbelievers, Satan, therapists. Of discovery and punishment by leadersA major motivator.


        c) Happiness: As defined by the group. Obtained by good performance and/or confession.


        d) Loyalty and devotion.


        e) Confession of past sins – this is often used against the person.


        f) Phobia indoctrination. Induced panic reaction at the thought of leaving. Dark stories are
        told of those who have left both in lectures and informal gossip. The idea of the Devil waiting to seduce and tempt, kill or drive insane. The more vivid and tangible, the more intense the cohesiveness it fosters.




        4) INFORMATION CONTROL


        The control of destabilising information by:





        a) Denial of information so that sound judgements cannot be made. E.g. minimal access to T.V., non-group magazines, newspapers or radio. Partially achieved through busyness.


        b) Criticism of the leader with peers not allowed


        c) Members report improper activities to leader.


        d) New converts do not talk to one another without a chaperone


        e) Contact with ex members and critics avoided.


        f) Compartmentalisation of information so that members do not know the ‘big picture’.


        g) Multi levelled truth- the higher you are, the more is revealed.


        i) For outsiders
        ii) For members
        iii) For leaders
        iv) For high leaders




        THE PROCESSES OF MIND CONTROL



        There are three steps:



        1) Unfreezing


        2) Changing


        3) Refreezing




        1) UNFREEZING.




        This is a shaking up and disorientation. A breaking up of the frames of reference used by the person for understanding themselves and their surroundings. This disarms the person’s defences against concepts that challenge reality.

        Approaches include:





        a) Physiological disorientation via sleep deprivation, new diets and eating schedules. Often best accomplished in a totally controlled environment such as a retreat at amcountry estate.


        b) Hypnotic processes such as the deliberate use of confusion via contradictory information.


        c) Sensory overload – being bombarded with material faster than it can be digested.


        d) Use of double binds – “I am putting doubts in your mind”.


        e) Group exercises –


        1) Guided meditation.


        2) Personal confession


        3) Prayer sessions


        4) Group singing


        5) Vigorous callisthenics
        Group activities enforce privacy deprivation and reflection.


        f) As people weaken – A bombardment with the idea that the person is badly flawed, mentally ill, incompetent or spiritually fallen. Any identified problems are blown out of all proportion. There may be humiliation in front of the group.




        2) CHANGING



        The imposition of a new identity, a new set of thoughts, emotions and behaviours to fill the void of unfreezing. This takes place:



        a) Formally – in lectures, seminars and rituals


        b) Informally –in spending time with members, reading, listening to tapes, watching videos.


        The approaches to change include:


        a) Repetition, monotony and rhythm – the hypnotic cadences in which formal indoctrination is delivered


        b) A focus on central themes:


        1) The world is bad.


        2) The unenlightened do not know how to fix it


        3) The old self keeps you from experiencing the new truth fully.


        4) Old concepts drag you down.


        5) The rational mind holds you back – let go.


        c) The material for the new identity is given out gradually – “Tell him only what he can accept.” “Milk for the baby, meat for the adult”


        d) Artificially induced spiritual experience. Private information is secretly passed and revealed at the appropriate time as an ‘insight’.


        e) Asking for God’s will for them. Via prayer and study. The implication is that joining the group is God’s will, leaving is not.


        f) Group processes:



        1) Being surrounded by people who are convinced that they know what is best for you.


        2) Via cells or small groups- questioners and doubters may be isolated into their own group.


        3) Sharing sessions with ordinary members, where past evils are confessed, present successes told and a sense of community fostered.




        3) REFREEZING.



        This is the building up of the new person, giving them a new purpose and new activities to solidify the new identity. New beliefs are internalised by the person.

        Approaches include


        a) Denigration of the old self, maximising sins, failings, hurt and guilt.


        b) Modelling. The new member is paired with an older member whom they should emulate.


        c) The group is the member’s new family.


        d) Possible giving of a new name.


        e) Turning over the bank account – subsequently it may be too painful to admit this mistake.


        f) Sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, diet changes continued.


        g) New location – no links with the past – only the new identity here.


        h) Evangelising/prosteletizing – selling one’s own beliefs to others to firm up one’s own beliefs.


        i) Difficult and humiliating fund raising. Can provoke a sense of glorious martyrdom.




        General comments



        There is no legitimate way to leave a cult.


        The result of these processes is a dual identity - the old self does not disappear, but occasionally surfaces in humour, and greater emotional range and spontaneity. But it is clothed in the new cult self such that the person is more robot-like, rigid and cold-eyed. But the real identity holds the key to escape and to the inner desires. These emerge via psychosomatic illness, requiring outside treatment, dreams of being trapped, concentration camps e.t.c. and spiritual experiences, of voices telling them to leave e.t.c..



        Problems in the group are always the fault of the member, due to:



        a) His weakness


        b) His lack of understanding


        c) Bad ancestors


        d) Evil spirits


        e) His inadequacies.




        ANALYSING AND ASSESSING GROUPS


        Look at what the group does, not at what it believes. They have the right to believe what they want, but they do not have an automatic licence to act on those beliefs, else white supremacy groups would kill all blacks for example. Destructive groups undermine individual choice and liberty.


        …. (end)

        I found this  http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAI ... nd-Control (http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAINWASHING-Dysfunctional-groups-cults-sects-and-Mind-Control)

        I’ve certainly seen this model, the BITE model, and the ‘Unfreezing, change, refreeze’ concept, but I thought this was about as thorough and concise a presentation that I had come across.


        .
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Anne Bonney on June 16, 2010, 09:49:57 AM
        Quote from: "DannyB II"


        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.
        You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
        Hmmmmm.........drama.


        danny

        Ok...Well, I do have personal experience with it and his statement is dead on accurate.
        Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
        Post by: Anne Bonney on June 16, 2010, 09:53:09 AM
        Yep.  I think one of the things that helped me the most, when researching and trying to make myself whole again after Straight, was the Ex Cult Resource website.  When I read Lifton, Singer, Hassan, Groenveld etc.....it all made complete sense to me.

        http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/)



        General Information

            * Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform
            * Conditions for Mind Control (Margaret Singer)
            * Mind Control - The BITE Model (Steven Hassan)
            * A Behavioral Definition (of 'cult') (Kevin Crawley)
            * Identifying a Cult (Jan Groenveld)
            * Totalism & Group Dynamics (Jan Groenveld)
            * Academic Research into Cults (Jeff Jacobsen)





        Quote from: "Awake"
        I think anyone at Cedu will relate to this.  It doesn’t fill in all the gaps of course, Cedu was a hodgepodge of things. Overall though I do think using terms like brainwashing or cults signifies a lack of terminology for something that has slipped unchallenged into our society.  I feel this terminology translates neatly into the epistemology of family therapy theory, cybernetics, and Double Bind theory, which historically has an appropriate connection with therapeutic communities.   viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)




        BRAINWASHING: Dysfunctional groups, cults, sects and Mind Control:  AN EXPLORATION OF DYSFUNCTIONAL GROUPS, SECTS AND CULTS.


        Some Broad Definitions

        ……


        Cults.


        This is a negative term. It generally refers to a group or sect that has sinister aspects to it, such as attempts at coercion. In various ways they are dysfunctional, unhealthy groups.



        CULTS



        There are four main types: Religious, Political, Therapy/educational, and Commercial.


        They do not carry out brainwashing. Brainwashing is overt, coercive and it is plain who the enemy is. Rather they carry out mind control or thought reform. Here, the perpetrators are



        a) regarded as friends or peers making the candidate less defensive.


        b) The candidate participates unwittingly with their controllers, for example by giving private information.


        c) The new belief system is internalised into a new identity structure.


        d) The group may use hypnotic processes and group dynamics.




        THE COMPONENTS OF MIND CONTROL



        1) BEHAVIOUR CONTROL



        By regulating the environment:



        a) Where you live


        b) What clothing you wear


        c) What food you eat


        d) How much sleep you have


        e) What jobs and goals you have.


        f) Rituals and indoctrination


        g) Restriction of free time – sometimes an apocalyptic sense of urgency


        h) Financial dependency


        i) Permission required to do things, i.e. phone relative


        j) Suppression of individuality to group conformity


        k) Pyramidical authoritarian command structure


        l) Use of punishment and reward, often keeping members off balance – praised one day, punished the next.


        m) Use of mannerisms of speech and posture


        n) Regulation of interpersonal relationships – emotional allegiance to leader – no real friends because if the person leaves they may take others with them.


        o) Group activities which creates privacy deprivation and thwarts reflection.




        2) THOUGHT CONTROL



        By indoctrination, such that beliefs are internalised.




        a) Group has the Truth – the only map of reality. This moulds and filters incoming data. The doctrine is reality, the most effective being those which are unverifiable – global yet vague but apparently consistent. Reality is externally referenced via an authority figure and other members who are looked to for direction and meaning.


        b) Black and white thinking – Group is good, outsiders bad. Thus good vs evil, Us vs them, Spiritual vs physical. No pluralism or multi perspective taking.


        c) Group beliefs are scientifically proven and explain everything


        d) Loaded language. E.g. A Cain and Abel problem


        e) Blocking out critical thoughts by:


        i) Denial: “What you say is not happening at all”
        ii) Rationalisation: “It is happening for a good reason”
        iii) Justification: “It is happening because it ought to”
        iv) Wishful thinking: “I would like it to be true so maybe it is”
        v) Demonising: “Lies put about by Satan/Persecution that we would expect”.
        vi) Thought stopping: By chanting/ tongue speaking
        vii) Punishment: Being given the silent treatment or transfer to another group e.t.c.




        3) EMOTIONAL CONTROL


        Emotions are controlled by the use of:



        a) Guilt: in order to produce conformity and compliance. Guilt takes a number of aspects:
        i) Historical guilt. – We dropped the bomb on Hiroshima
        ii) Identity guilt – “I’m not living up to my potential”
        iii) Past guilt – “I cheated on a test” A persons past is rewritten: everything is dark
        iv) Social guilt – People are dying of starvation
        v) Quality guilt- not meeting standards


        b) Fear: By creating an outside enemy – unbelievers, Satan, therapists. Of discovery and punishment by leadersA major motivator.


        c) Happiness: As defined by the group. Obtained by good performance and/or confession.


        d) Loyalty and devotion.


        e) Confession of past sins – this is often used against the person.


        f) Phobia indoctrination. Induced panic reaction at the thought of leaving. Dark stories are
        told of those who have left both in lectures and informal gossip. The idea of the Devil waiting to seduce and tempt, kill or drive insane. The more vivid and tangible, the more intense the cohesiveness it fosters.




        4) INFORMATION CONTROL


        The control of destabilising information by:





        a) Denial of information so that sound judgements cannot be made. E.g. minimal access to T.V., non-group magazines, newspapers or radio. Partially achieved through busyness.


        b) Criticism of the leader with peers not allowed


        c) Members report improper activities to leader.


        d) New converts do not talk to one another without a chaperone


        e) Contact with ex members and critics avoided.


        f) Compartmentalisation of information so that members do not know the ‘big picture’.


        g) Multi levelled truth- the higher you are, the more is revealed.


        i) For outsiders
        ii) For members
        iii) For leaders
        iv) For high leaders




        THE PROCESSES OF MIND CONTROL



        There are three steps:



        1) Unfreezing


        2) Changing


        3) Refreezing




        1) UNFREEZING.




        This is a shaking up and disorientation. A breaking up of the frames of reference used by the person for understanding themselves and their surroundings. This disarms the person’s defences against concepts that challenge reality.

        Approaches include:





        a) Physiological disorientation via sleep deprivation, new diets and eating schedules. Often best accomplished in a totally controlled environment such as a retreat at amcountry estate.


        b) Hypnotic processes such as the deliberate use of confusion via contradictory information.


        c) Sensory overload – being bombarded with material faster than it can be digested.


        d) Use of double binds – “I am putting doubts in your mind”.


        e) Group exercises –


        1) Guided meditation.


        2) Personal confession


        3) Prayer sessions


        4) Group singing


        5) Vigorous callisthenics
        Group activities enforce privacy deprivation and reflection.


        f) As people weaken – A bombardment with the idea that the person is badly flawed, mentally ill, incompetent or spiritually fallen. Any identified problems are blown out of all proportion. There may be humiliation in front of the group.




        2) CHANGING



        The imposition of a new identity, a new set of thoughts, emotions and behaviours to fill the void of unfreezing. This takes place:



        a) Formally – in lectures, seminars and rituals


        b) Informally –in spending time with members, reading, listening to tapes, watching videos.


        The approaches to change include:


        a) Repetition, monotony and rhythm – the hypnotic cadences in which formal indoctrination is delivered


        b) A focus on central themes:


        1) The world is bad.


        2) The unenlightened do not know how to fix it


        3) The old self keeps you from experiencing the new truth fully.


        4) Old concepts drag you down.


        5) The rational mind holds you back – let go.


        c) The material for the new identity is given out gradually – “Tell him only what he can accept.” “Milk for the baby, meat for the adult”


        d) Artificially induced spiritual experience. Private information is secretly passed and revealed at the appropriate time as an ‘insight’.


        e) Asking for God’s will for them. Via prayer and study. The implication is that joining the group is God’s will, leaving is not.


        f) Group processes:



        1) Being surrounded by people who are convinced that they know what is best for you.


        2) Via cells or small groups- questioners and doubters may be isolated into their own group.


        3) Sharing sessions with ordinary members, where past evils are confessed, present successes told and a sense of community fostered.




        3) REFREEZING.



        This is the building up of the new person, giving them a new purpose and new activities to solidify the new identity. New beliefs are internalised by the person.

        Approaches include


        a) Denigration of the old self, maximising sins, failings, hurt and guilt.


        b) Modelling. The new member is paired with an older member whom they should emulate.


        c) The group is the member’s new family.


        d) Possible giving of a new name.


        e) Turning over the bank account – subsequently it may be too painful to admit this mistake.


        f) Sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, diet changes continued.


        g) New location – no links with the past – only the new identity here.


        h) Evangelising/prosteletizing – selling one’s own beliefs to others to firm up one’s own beliefs.


        i) Difficult and humiliating fund raising. Can provoke a sense of glorious martyrdom.




        General comments



        There is no legitimate way to leave a cult.


        The result of these processes is a dual identity - the old self does not disappear, but occasionally surfaces in humour, and greater emotional range and spontaneity. But it is clothed in the new cult self such that the person is more robot-like, rigid and cold-eyed. But the real identity holds the key to escape and to the inner desires. These emerge via psychosomatic illness, requiring outside treatment, dreams of being trapped, concentration camps e.t.c. and spiritual experiences, of voices telling them to leave e.t.c..



        Problems in the group are always the fault of the member, due to:



        a) His weakness


        b) His lack of understanding


        c) Bad ancestors


        d) Evil spirits


        e) His inadequacies.




        ANALYSING AND ASSESSING GROUPS


        Look at what the group does, not at what it believes. They have the right to believe what they want, but they do not have an automatic licence to act on those beliefs, else white supremacy groups would kill all blacks for example. Destructive groups undermine individual choice and liberty.


        …. (end)

        I found this  http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAI ... nd-Control (http://www.scribd.com/doc/17647941/BRAINWASHING-Dysfunctional-groups-cults-sects-and-Mind-Control)

        I’ve certainly seen this model, the BITE model, and the ‘Unfreezing, change, refreeze’ concept, but I thought this was about as thorough and concise a presentation that I had come across.


        .
        Title: Don Quixote rides again
        Post by: Ursus on June 16, 2010, 10:48:15 AM
        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.
        Jeesh, you have no personal experience with fraudulent advertising that I have read and you have no personal experience of the "all too fatal consequences". I could be wrong, did your parents feel deceived and was their a death at Hyde while you were there.
        You really don't have any basis to make any of the above assumptions about me, Danny.

        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."
        This is not something you are using any energy to find out, that's for sure. So what is this a rhetorical statement/question ??????
        Again, you really do not have any basis to make that assumption, Danny.

        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.
        You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
        Hmmmmm.........drama.
        No. What *IS* pure speculation, however, is what you relied upon to make your baseless assumption. It is YOU who knows not a thing about my personal experience, not I.

        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me.......
        You said it.....IF
        It's called "phrasing," Danny. Emphasis in the first part of that sentence is on MORAL BACKBONE, which you curiously overlooked.

        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        ...I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper.
        What I have seen of you over the last 6 months I would agree with this under one condition you tone down the drama....you are looking deeper into it right now, although I don't feel all this heartfelt emotion your trying to convey.
        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Doncha think?
        It depends......
        Sorry if there's been any misperception here, Danny, but you don't get to tell me what I post about. Nor how I post ... what I do post about. I'm not exactly going to lose any sleep over whether or not you "agree" with me, let alone under any artificial "conditions" you wish to impose upon me. LOL. Ya can always check with the Admins, but it's my understanding that you have no such authority here; you are just another poster, just like the rest of us.

        If my posting style so seriously disturbs you, you have the option of blocking my posts from your view, as does everyone else here. Feel free to avail yourself of this option.
        Title: programs are just like summer camp
        Post by: Ursus on June 16, 2010, 11:25:45 AM
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?
        You get upset when I compare programs to summer camp yet it is acceptable to compare programs to Russian gulags and cults?  Hmmm
        Lol. You take something which offends you, which one or more users here have posted, and simply assume that all posters are in complete and total agreement with the vernacular. Knee-jerk presumptions, anyone?  :D  

        Moreover, you assumed I "got upset." Lol. At this point, I pretty much expect this type of verbal manipulation from you.

        I take it that it was summer camp at which you experienced a souring note.

        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:

          "You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."[/list]

          Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.
          Look above (previous post) where you said:
          One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

          But even without the quote it is evident, via your postings,  that you cannot relate to kids who do well in programs.
          Oh, I'm looking at the two statements, Whooter, and I cannot for the life of me see how you used one to extrapolate to the other. Postulating that "one has to wonder" does in no way imply that one "cannot understand." In fact, more often than not, when people use that former phrase, they often already have some conclusions and/or understanding kicking around in their head, and are using this literary device to elicit some focused contemplation on the part of the reader.

          As for your claim that I "cannot relate," this would appear to be yet another presumption on your part. Transference, anyone?  :D

          If the above examples epitomize your reasoning capabilities, they certainly could serve to shed some light on how you are able to continue extrapolating "program success" from insider generated "studies," not to mention press releases geared towards investors, while conveniently bypassing any evidence to the contrary.
          Title: Re: programs are just like summer camp
          Post by: Whooter on June 16, 2010, 12:52:11 PM
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Moreover, you assumed I "got upset."
          Yes, I did, and from your response I can see I was dead on.  If you expect everyone to accept comparisons to Gulags from the 1930's then you need to accept comparisons to Summer Camps, outward bound from the 1970's etc.

          Quote
          Oh, I'm looking at the two statements, Whooter, and I cannot for the life of me see how you used one to extrapolate to the other. Postulating that "one has to wonder" does in no way imply that one "cannot understand." In fact, more often than not, when people use that former phrase, they often already have some conclusions and/or understanding kicking around in their head, and are using this literary device to elicit some focused contemplation on the part of the reader.

          As for your claim that I "cannot relate," this would appear to be yet another presumption on your part. Transference, anyone?  

          So you can either relate to the kids that do well and the life lesson they learned or you cannot (which is it?).  If you feel you can relate to them then that is great and is a big step for you.  If you cannot relate to them then my statement holds true.

          Quote
          If the above examples epitomize your reasoning capabilities, they certainly could serve to shed some light on how you are able to continue extrapolating "program success" from insider generated "studies," not to mention press releases geared towards investors, while conveniently bypassing any evidence to the contrary.

          Ah, the ever popular program success,  so that is what has you upset.  Hmmmm, The recent independent study which was overseen by a third (independent oversight organization) which upholds the conclusions from those internal studies you have been turning your nose up at all these years.

          So now that the industry has generated independent studies with third party oversight you may want to think about asking for longer term clinical studies.  Maybe that will buy you another year or two of fooling yourself that no studies exist. lol  Even with a Bose noise reduction headset you will be pretty hard pressed to ignore the feedback from a study based on a 1,000 kids and parents.  You guys dedicated an entire thread,  here on fornits, trying to discredit the study but in the end the ethics investigation and conflict of interest review found that the study was done in good standing and has been presented and well received by many psychological associations.

          I am sorry this upsets you, but all the google searches you can muster isnt going to overturn a first hand ethics review.



          ...
          Title: Re: programs are just like summer camp
          Post by: Anne Bonney on June 16, 2010, 01:07:50 PM
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          The recent independent study which was overseen by a third (independent oversight organization) which upholds the conclusions from those internal studies you have been turning your nose up at all these years.


          (http://http://fayinc.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/citation-needed-wikipedia-819731_500_271.jpg)
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Anne Bonney on June 16, 2010, 01:12:55 PM
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

          I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

          I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Whooter on June 16, 2010, 03:41:02 PM
          Quote from: "Ursus"

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
          Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



          ...
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: DannyB II on June 16, 2010, 03:59:23 PM
          Quote
          Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

          I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

          I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.


          Anne you can be so full of yourself sometimes it is hilarious. You walked up to Miller Newton and right in his face (no less then 12 inches away) told him all these things, naw I don't think so. I believe others have done it and you heard their stories but I find you to be a "big talker" with very small heart.
          Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
          Post by: Pile of Dead Kids on June 16, 2010, 04:38:37 PM
          Yeah I'll post this again.
          Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
          Post by: SUCK IT on June 16, 2010, 05:00:38 PM
          Pileof Dead Kids, were you in a treatment program ever? Because according to Manne Conney only people who did treatment have any authority to speak about it. That's the rules according to ol' Manne Conney.

          Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

          You weren't in Straight, therefore have no authority to speak of what happened inside.  

          I'm tinking of changing my username to Mountains of Satisfied Kids, because in reality 99.9999999% of kids make it through treatment just fine. So if there's a pile of dead kids, then there is a mount everest of satisfied kids, or at least kids who are still alive to whine about it on the net.  :roflmao:
          Title: Re: RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU
          Post by: Whooter on June 16, 2010, 05:20:11 PM
          Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
          Yeah I'll post this again.


          This is the type of stuff that keeps us all coming back for more:

          Yet, Another Pile classic.  Creates a pyramid and places himself at the top and calls everyone below him “Fucking idiots”.  But by his own definition (and order of echelon) by calling others names it places him down at the bottom under “Ad Hominem” and “Name-calling” which translates into him calling himself a "Fucking Idiot"  (Which he just documented by creating the pyramid in the first place).  How can a guy possibly get more caught up in his own underwear?

          Wow, I think I just “Found a mistake” and “refuted the central point”  !!! Lol



          ...
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Anne Bonney on June 16, 2010, 05:24:26 PM
          Quote from: "DannyB II"
          Quote
          Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

          I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Yep.  That's exactly what it is.  

          I can tell you right now who abused me.  I've told Virgil Miller Newton, a/k/a "Father" Cassian Newton to his face on many, many occasions that he's a child abusing criminal and a sociopathic fraud.  So have the numerous people who have successfully sued him.  So has the federal government.


          Anne you can be so full of yourself sometimes it is hilarious. You walked up to Miller Newton and right in his face (no less then 12 inches away) told him all these things, naw I don't think so. I believe others have done it and you heard their stories but I find you to be a "big talker" with very small heart.


          I don't really care what you believe or don't DannyBoy.  I (and a few others who were with me the several times I've done this at his home/church) got the satisfaction of telling Newton, to his face (it was actually less than 12 inches....wagging my finger so close to his face he could feel the breeze from it) that he's nothing more than a pathetic guru wannabe who abused thousands of kids.  And a psychotic fucking fraud to boot!

          But.....it was even more satisfying to tell his bitch wife Ruth Ann, that she could no longer control what we say.....and she did try!  Even then!  I couldn't believe it, so I just got right back in her puckered up mug and told her she could fucking KISS MY ASS!   She wasn't too happy and called the cops who promptly told her that we were on public property and could say whatever the hell we felt like saying.  

          Ah, the sheer joy to see their faces.   It's about time for another visit.   His neighbors hate his fake ass too. I only live about 30 minutes from he and Sembler both.

          Good times, good times.
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Awake on June 16, 2010, 06:45:33 PM
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          Quote from: "Ursus"

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
          Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



          ...


          Y’know Whooter you have plenty of opportunities to give factually based responses, but your only defense here is to discredit others also.  It’s your choice to continue to focus on the relationship drama here, or respond to the facts that are presented.  I’ve invited you to join this conversation and you’ve had plenty of opportunity to do that, but you just want to discredit me and call me ‘narrow minded’ for having a clearly stated position on the faults of this industry.  If you would like to defend against it,  come on over.

           viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)



          .
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Whooter on June 16, 2010, 06:59:50 PM
          Quote from: "Awake"
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          Quote from: "Ursus"

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
          Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



          ...


          Y’know Whooter you have plenty of opportunities to give factually based responses, but your only defense here is to discredit others also.  It’s your choice to continue to focus on the relationship drama here, or respond to the facts that are presented.  I’ve invited you to join this conversation and you’ve had plenty of opportunity to do that, but you just want to discredit me and call me ‘narrow minded’ for having a clearly stated position on the faults of this industry.  If you would like to defend against it,  come on over.

           viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)



          .


          I find it hard to believe that I called you "narrow minded" for posing a clearly stated position on the faults of the industry.  I think you are baiting me here.



          ...
          Title: Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
          Post by: Joel on June 16, 2010, 07:00:29 PM
          Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
          Title: Re: Yes, you got it! It's either THAT, or it's *not* THAT!
          Post by: Awake on June 16, 2010, 08:09:43 PM
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          Quote from: "Awake"
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          Quote from: "Ursus"

          Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.


          Belittle or discredit another poster or an entire group of people?  I don’t think anyone would be that insensitive, at least not here.  I don’t think fornits would tolerate it.  
          Imagine for a moment if someone tried to discredit or belittle an entire industry and the people who work for it.  Would we sit around and stand for that?  Should we stand up and say:  “Not on my forum!!,  we don’t tolerate that narrow minded thinking here”.



          ...


          Y’know Whooter you have plenty of opportunities to give factually based responses, but your only defense here is to discredit others also.  It’s your choice to continue to focus on the relationship drama here, or respond to the facts that are presented.  I’ve invited you to join this conversation and you’ve had plenty of opportunity to do that, but you just want to discredit me and call me ‘narrow minded’ for having a clearly stated position on the faults of this industry.  If you would like to defend against it,  come on over.

           viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423)



          .


          I find it hard to believe that I called you "narrow minded" for posing a clearly stated position on the faults of the industry.  I think you are baiting me here.



          ...



          WHOOPS!  My apologies Whooter.  I was under the impression you disagreed with me that double binds are a part of therapy for troubled teens.  I don’t want to make assumptions but I get the feeling that you also think the world at large should all be ok with that.


          If you believe my position is clearly stated, why do you feel ‘baited’?  Is there some reasoning here that you have to fear?

          .