Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: OverLordd on April 06, 2006, 12:59:00 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm)
A link to the artical
Text
Child 'jail' restraint criticised
The inquiry was launched after the death of Gareth Myatt, 15
An unacceptable level of pain is being used to restrain children in secure custody, a report says.
The independent investigation into the treatment of children in prison, led by Lord Carlile, found pain was used to enforce compliance.
That was "unacceptable" and may be illegal, the report said.
The investigation was set up following the death of a 15-year-old boy in a privately-run secure unit while he was being restrained by three adult staff.
The inquiry, commissioned by the Howard League for Penal Reform, looked into the use of restraint techniques and strip searching.
Varying figures
It found that physical force was used against youngsters 15,512 times during a 21-month period in England and Wales, with injuries to both staff and children not uncommon.
Liberal Democrat Lord Carlile said his team of advisors "shared my shock at some of the practices we witnessed".
"We found that some of the treatment children in custody experience would in another setting be considered abusive and could trigger a child protection investigation."
Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children
Carolyne Willow
Children's Rights Alliance for England
Youth death sparked review
Send us your comments
Figures varied between institutions - in which there are in total 2,800 children and young people held in England and Wales, including 200 girls.
At one secure training centre, Medway in Kent, 1,818 injuries to children as a result of restraint from January 2004 to June 2005 were reported.
At Rainsbrook near Rugby there were 118, Hassockfield in County Durham reported 177 and Oakhill in Milton Keynes listed 48 from its opening in September 2004 to August 2005.
A sample of five out of 24 local authority secure children's homes in England and Wales revealed 73 injuries to children from January 2004 to August 2005.
Young offenders institutions did not keep central records of how many children had been injured in restraint incidents.
The inquiry found some evidence that staff would "bait" children into situations that would lead to them being restrained for the adult's "own gratification".
The level of pain used may be illegal, the report says
The report accepts that many of the 10 to 17-year-olds held in young offender institutions, secure training centres and local authority secure children's homes have had chaotic and abusive childhoods and lack clear boundaries to their behaviour.
But it said that unnecessarily painful restraint techniques were used to deal with dissent in some institutions.
Handcuffs were used in the four privately-run secure training centres, something the inquiry says should stop.
And the need for a strip search should be based on evidence, something the report says would cut the number of strip searches by half.
The Youth Justice Board chairman Professor Rod Morgan said staff were encouraged to use non-physical methods to deal with difficult behaviour.
"We want to move to a situation where the staff have sufficient confidence and are sufficiently well-trained that they don't have to rely on physical restraint to the degree that in some instances they are currently doing," he said.
Mental health
However, he said there was an underlying problem about a lack of spaces for young offenders who had mental health problems - and should be in healthcare rather than custodial care.
Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes... they're still children
Prison Reform Trust
He called for a three-part inter-departmental review - to look at children dealt with in the criminal courts and end up in custody; those dealt with in the family courts and end up in care; and those dealt with under the mental health act and end up in psychiatric care.
Children's Rights Alliance for England national co-ordinator Carolyne Willow, a member of Lord Carlile's advisory panel, said: "We are not talking here about children being hurt in the rough and tumble of restraint.
"Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children."
"As a former child protection social worker, I am stunned that this is allowed to happen."
The inquiry was told that one in five restraints of children resulted in injury.
'They're still children'
Director of the Prison Reform Trust Juliette Lyon says children are being failed by the prison system and they invariably end up re-offending.
Cases where children needed to be restrained should be the "rarest of rare events", she told BBC News.
"When you look at the number of times that physical restraints were used in the course of less than a year - thousands of times, on some quite young children - you realise it's being used as a matter of course when it's a disciplinary issue.
"Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes, although that is a minority, they're still children," she added.
Lord Carlile's report concludes that police should be ready to prosecute in cases where children appear to have been assaulted.
The inquiry was launched after the death of Gareth Myatt, 15, from Stoke-on-Trent, in April 2004.
He died after being restrained by three members of staff four days into his sentence at privately-run Rainsbrook secure training centre, near Rugby.
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Sickening.
The inquiry found some evidence that staff would "bait" children into situations that would lead to them being restrained for the adult's "own gratification".
Now where have I heard this before...?
Sounds like a page directly out of HLA's "Bait and Punish" policy manual.
On another note, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU, OL!
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sounds like a page directly out of HLA's "Bait and Punish" policy manual.
BAIT AND PUNISH POLICY MANUAL?
You have a copy of this or know where I can find a scan? :eek:
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Well I think the most important thing about this is that the British Government leanred of a potential problem, investigated it and is now resolving the issue. This is how we solve problems.
I hardly think that this is a an issue on anywhere near the level as abuse in the United States where these abuses are happening with the tacit (and in some cases explicit) permission of the authorities.
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On 2006-04-08 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well I think the most important thing about this is that the British Government leanred of a potential problem, investigated it and is now resolving the issue. This is how we solve problems.
I hardly think that this is a an issue on anywhere near the level as abuse in the United States where these abuses are happening with the tacit (and in some cases explicit) permission of the authorities.
"
Good to know there's still some competency SOMEWHERE within the world. Living here you can find yourself prone to assume everyones an idiot.
Terribly sorry about your PM, though. :roll:
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Is there a reason you are attempting to stifle functional debate?
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On 2006-04-12 07:23:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Is there a reason you are attempting to stifle functional debate?
"
Is there a reason you have stopped logging on a "Sammie" Samantha Monroe?
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Because Samantha Monroe is not my name.
I'm not even female.
Q1)who is Samantha Monroe
Q2)why are you pissed at her?
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On 2006-04-08 16:35:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"How might the telly programme "Bad Lads" might be explained then?
Not the same level of abuse my arse. Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous
"
When I lived in England there was a corner shop and the kids hang about on bicycles.One day I noticed a new big pole with a CCTV Security camera pointed at the shop,then suddenly these children looked like a bunch of criminals.
You know,those cameras in England are being monitored in India,and if the Indian guy sees something he considers to be POTENTIAL Illegal activities,he rings up the police in England.
Coming to a neighborhood near YOU soon.
Komsomnida
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On 2006-04-12 08:58:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Because Samantha Monroe is not my name.
I'm not even female.
Q1)who is Samantha Monroe
Q2)why are you pissed at her?
"
Q1)You.
Q2)Read above.
Cheerio
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On 2006-04-12 09:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-08 16:35:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"How might the telly programme "Bad Lads" might be explained then?
Not the same level of abuse my arse. Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous
"
When I lived in England there was a corner shop and the kids hang about on bicycles.One day I noticed a new big pole with a CCTV Security camera pointed at the shop,then suddenly these children looked like a bunch of criminals.
You know,those cameras in England are being monitored in India,and if the Indian guy sees something he considers to be POTENTIAL Illegal activities,he rings up the police in England.
Coming to a neighborhood near YOU soon.
Komsomnida"
Are you sure it wasn't a "Local Shop"?
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okay, back on topic after our little troll attack.
I live in the United Kingdom and I agree there are increasing signs of antipathy towards young people. It's happening all over the western world at the moment (just look at France)
However, a few cameras and ASBOS are not even in the same ballpark as tranquility bay and city wide curfews.
The last point I would like to make is that the person posting about Cameras being watched in india was talking total rubbish. You see over here we have the Data protection act which prevents data regarding individuals or groups from being transmitted outside the EU without their explicit consent. Most CCTVs aren't even monitored in real time. The tapes are only reviewed after a nearby crime.
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On 2006-04-12 09:18:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"okay, back on topic after our little troll attack.
I live in the United Kingdom and I agree there are increasing signs of antipathy towards young people. It's happening all over the western world at the moment (just look at France)
However, a few cameras and ASBOS are not even in the same ballpark as tranquility bay and city wide curfews.
The last point I would like to make is that the person posting about Cameras being watched in india was talking total rubbish. You see over here we have the Data protection act which prevents data regarding individuals or groups from being transmitted outside the EU without their explicit consent. Most CCTVs aren't even monitored in real time. The tapes are only reviewed after a nearby crime."
YEA,but the fucking cameras transformed our "Local Shop" in to a fucking gathering place for hoodlums!
These kids looked normal,but after the cameras were put in,ON LARGE FUCKING POLES,the kids suddenly looked like criminals.
I used to stop in the petrol station every day for a pie,then one day there were fucking signes everywhere WARNING WARNING CCTV IN ACTION!!!
Fuck that place I never shop there anymore!
My friend has a hotel on Lienster Gardens in Bayswater,then I went to visit him and over the door scrawled in BIG FUCKING ELECTRICAL TAPE is another CCTV WARNING WARNING!!!!
England people seem cool on TV,but when you really have to live THERE with them,they are the most repressed and uptight people you will ever meet.
Germans are more fucking warm and engaging than these fucking brits.
The Monkeys From The Island!
Just look at any German-English dictionary under "Englander" and you will read "monkeys from the island".
Thats why they make such good music,because they are shut in the most miserable environment,and have to imagine all this stuff just to keep from topping themselves from boredom.
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On 2006-04-12 09:31:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sorry you didn't like England or the English. I hope you have a long happy life where you are."
No,I like England,but its too expensive now.
National express has some sweet deals,but too many Budgins 9p beans and those wretched Gobblin Pots or wha ever they are called.
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Hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way
God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author
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On 2006-04-13 04:21:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"A floydian slip ladies and gentlemen...
"
SIT TING ON A PARK BENCH!!!
Tull is better.
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Heh heh, is that when you say one thing but you really mean your mother?
Seriously, Ardvark, last I heard Tony and W were engaged to be married. To what kind of 'rehab', exactly, do you think they sent Prince Harry to curb his youthful indescretions? Here's one troubling clue.
Nancy Reagan took Princess Di to Straight-Springfield to show her how we handle our druggie kids in this country while Ronald Reagan wrote an endorsement for Straight pamphlets. Robert DuPont, Richard Nixon's Drug Czar, had overseen funding for an experimental juvenile program to try to turn American kids into the straight laced citizens that he thought they should be. That program was called The Seed and its methods were likened by the US Senate to Communist brainwashing techniques.
Straight, Inc. grew out of The Seed and Robert DuPont became Straight's consultant.
...
http://thestraights.com/gop.htm (http://thestraights.com/gop.htm)
I know ppl who were actually there at the time. You should ask them their take, but I like to think Di was just roped into that whole Bizarro World PR tour. Can you even imagine being trapped in close proximity to Nancy Reagan for that duration? Besides, she always seemed like such a decent, level headed young lady.
And it's not just England, far from it! Remember that Sembler was Ambassador to Australia during the Büsh I admin. And check this out:
THE SAGA OF MEL AND BETTY SEMBLER
Powerful American Drug Warriors
June 6, 2002
Washington, D.C.
[This article was prepared at the request of the Italian magazine, Carta, and is obviously intended primarily for an Italian audience.]
Arnold S. Trebach
Professor Emeritus
American University
As a proud American, I find Melvin Sembler, our ambassador to Italy, and his wife, Betty, to be profound embarrassments. It is important that their advice on the drug war and especially on drug treatment be ignored. Indeed, it might be best if Italians listened to what this powerful couple had to say about drugs - and then followed policies in precisely the opposite direction.
...
http://www.trebach.com/media/carta.htm (http://www.trebach.com/media/carta.htm)
The Dr MacDonald mentioned in Dr. Trebach's article was just a pediatrician in Clearwater, Florida till he put his son in Straight. I know a few people who were in the Program at about the same time. Besides, Dr. MacDonald has made it public info. (all that bs about confidentiality and anonymity go out the window when it comes to a little timely PR)
Hell, I even heard from a friend who used to visit Serbia some years ago of Partnership for a Drug Free America style billboards popping up along the roadsides in that country in the time leading up to our and NATO's military action in that country. I think the Serbian kids had a little more spunk in those days than American or Brittish kids ta day. One of the favorites was half a pot leaf with the other half being made up of pills, needles and other icons of hard drugs. The original caption read something like "Marijuana = bondage". But with just a slight alteration in the Serbian language, they changed "bondage" to "freedom" on a good many of them.
It's spreading, no doubt, and it's no coincidence. Just don't buy it, alright?
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Shoot, I forgot both of the links![ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-13 04:41 ]
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I'm going to england with family soon for vacation, its going to be nice, I can't wait to try the food.
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On 2006-04-15 22:22:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"The food tastes like shit. Go to a good indo take away or get some good paki curry. Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
"
I second that motion.
You can,however,go to a supermarket and find pre made international foods that are quite good,and I usually steer towards the Indian/Paki stuff.
Dont be fooled by what Englanders call "sausage",its in fact just bread soaked in pork fat and stuffed in to a sausage casing.
There are shops that sell sandwiches and "pasties",cheap small meat pies.
And dont be fooled by "English Breakfast",because usually it is a VERY HARD bread roll with butter,served with a dish of jelly that has been in the fridge so long it has formed a 1/4 inch thick skin.
If you want a proper English Breakfast then you had better state that point clearly and be ready to hand over a lot of money for it.
I survive on the cheapest food in England,Spighettios and 9p Beans at Budgins Best Supermarket.
Warning!The Low Fat Milk has a red cap,and the Full Milk has a blue cap,and "Double Cream" is much to thick to put in your coffee,you should buy "Single Cream" for coffee.
Englanders soap up their dishes,but never rinse ANY of the soap off before drying,so you had better rinse them your self or you will have a case of the shits like you wont believe.
Englanders dont like showers,so all the bath tubs have only hot/cold spigots,but they are a foot apart,so you cant blend warm water,so it is impossible to rinse the soap out of your hair with warm water.
Go to Germany if you want to be treated warmly,Brits are so uptight and constipated all the time,and Im talking about my friends.
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Hey, the beers good at the very least :lol:
And I *HAVE* seen some good English food around. Unfortunately it seems its hard to come by good old-school stuff when lowest-common-denominator crap is so abundant.
That said, I wanna try some blood sausage sometime... sounds fucking tasty!
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On 2006-04-16 01:54:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Hey, the beers good at the very least :lol:
<
If you can afford one,about $10USD each,and expect to pay that much per pack for your cigarettes too,and I dont mean in Central London,Im talking about the whole UK.
And kick in &8USD if you want a simple plate of greasy Fish-N-Chips in the Local Shop.
WARNING!!!CCTV IN ACTION!!!WARNING!!!
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$8USD gets me a sixpack of Bass.
Jesus christ, that islands turned mad.
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On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at £5.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my £21000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for £2.05 (around $3.50)
"
You forgot one important point... America is WAY cooler than England. Keep your island, we don't want it anyways. Yes, we know England does not approve of America, this is nothing new! :lol:
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On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at £5.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my £21000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for £2.05 (around $3.50)
"
So... how'd WWII work out for you guys?
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On 2006-04-17 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
So... how'd WWII work out for you guys?"
Oh please! Come on, you can do better than that! :lol: :lol:
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So... how'd WWII work out for you guys?"
Lemme think, we held our own for three years while the Unitd States sat on it's arse.
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On 2006-04-17 07:26:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'll tell you guys what. You stop bashing England. I'll stop bashing America and we can all go back to playing happy families because the last time I checked we were allies."
There's only one guy bashing England and no one pays attention to him anyway. Don't sweat it.
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On 2006-04-17 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
So... how'd WWII work out for you guys?"
Oh please! Come on, you can do better than that! :lol: :lol: "
English accents sound very feminine and dainty.
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I might secretly like British Accents.... :lol:
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On 2006-04-17 07:39:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I love American accents, especially Portland and California Valley Girls.
They make me laugh.
Pittsburgh is a very macho.
I think Avery Brooks and James Earl Jones have the coolest voices ever."
I love cajun accents... they are so hard to figure out wtf they are saying. I love it! :lol:
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Woot!!! Trip to Enland!!! Blackpool here I come!!!! Nice!!! haha
hmm I grew up with a cajin accient, very painful thing to listen to on a regular basis, because half of it is french anyway.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2006-04-17 12:00 ]
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On 2006-04-17 11:59:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Woot!!! Trip to Enland!!! Blackpool here I come!!!! Nice!!! haha
hmm I grew up with a cajin accient, very painful thing to listen to on a regular basis, because half of it is french anyway.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2006-04-17 12:00 ]"
:rofl: :grin:
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On 2006-04-17 07:39:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I love American accents, especially Portland and California Valley Girls.
They make me laugh.
Pittsburgh is a very macho.
I think Avery Brooks and James Earl Jones have the coolest voices ever."
Also, Wisconsin.
I don't know why it's just cute.
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On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at £5.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my £21000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for £2.05 (around $3.50)
"
Are you quite certain about the incarceration thing?
Child 'jail' restraint criticised
An unacceptable level of pain is being used to restrain children in secure custody, a report says.
The independent investigation into the treatment of children in prison, led by Lord Carlile, found pain was used to enforce compliance.
That was "unacceptable" and may be illegal, the report said.
The investigation was set up following the death of a 15-year-old boy in a privately-run secure unit while he was being restrained by three adult staff.
The inquiry, commissioned by the Howard League for Penal Reform, looked into the use of restraint techniques and strip searching.
Varying figures
It found that physical force was used against youngsters 15,512 times during a 21-month period in England and Wales, with injuries to both staff and children not uncommon.
Liberal Democrat Lord Carlile said his team of advisors "shared my shock at some of the practices we witnessed".
"We found that some of the treatment children in custody experience would in another setting be considered abusive and could trigger a child protection investigation."
Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children Carolyne Willow Children's Rights Alliance for England
Figures varied between institutions - in which there are in total 2,800 children and young people held in England and Wales, including 200 girls.
At one secure training centre, Medway in Kent, 1,818 injuries to children as a result of restraint from January 2004 to June 2005 were reported.
At Rainsbrook near Rugby there were 118, Hassockfield in County Durham reported 177 and Oakhill in Milton Keynes listed 48 from its opening in September 2004 to August 2005.
A sample of five out of 24 local authority secure children's homes in England and Wales revealed 73 injuries to children from January 2004 to August 2005.
Young offenders institutions did not keep central records of how many children had been injured in restraint incidents.
The inquiry found some evidence that staff would "bait" children into situations that would lead to them being restrained for the adult's "own gratification".
The report accepts that many of the 10 to 17-year-olds held in young offender institutions, secure training centres and local authority secure children's homes have had chaotic and abusive childhoods and lack clear boundaries to their behaviour.
But it said that unnecessarily painful restraint techniques were used to deal with dissent in some institutions.
Handcuffs were used in the four privately-run secure training centres, something the inquiry says should stop.
And the need for a strip search should be based on evidence, something the report says would cut the number of strip searches by half.
The Youth Justice Board chairman Professor Rod Morgan said staff were encouraged to use non-physical methods to deal with difficult behaviour.
"We want to move to a situation where the staff have sufficient confidence and are sufficiently well-trained that they don't have to rely on physical restraint to the degree that in some instances they are currently doing," he said.
Mental health
However, he said there was an underlying problem about a lack of spaces for young offenders who had mental health problems - and should be in healthcare rather than custodial care.
Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes... they're still children Prison Reform Trust
He called for a three-part inter-departmental review - to look at children dealt with in the criminal courts and end up in custody; those dealt with in the family courts and end up in care; and those dealt with under the mental health act and end up in psychiatric care.
Children's Rights Alliance for England national co-ordinator Carolyne Willow, a member of Lord Carlile's advisory panel, said: "We are not talking here about children being hurt in the rough and tumble of restraint.
"Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children."
"As a former child protection social worker, I am stunned that this is allowed to happen."
The inquiry was told that one in five restraints of children resulted in injury.
'They're still children'
Director of the Prison Reform Trust Juliette Lyon says children are being failed by the prison system and they invariably end up re-offending.
Cases where children needed to be restrained should be the "rarest of rare events", she told BBC News.
"When you look at the number of times that physical restraints were used in the course of less than a year - thousands of times, on some quite young children - you realise it's being used as a matter of course when it's a disciplinary issue.
"Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes, although that is a minority, they're still children," she added.
Lord Carlile's report concludes that police should be ready to prosecute in cases where children appear to have been assaulted.
The inquiry was launched after the death of Gareth Myatt, 15, from Stoke-on-Trent, in April 2004.
He died after being restrained by three members of staff four days into his sentence at privately-run Rainsbrook secure training centre, near Rugby.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm)
Published: 2006/02/17 08:53:46 GMT
© BBC MMVI
'Child jails' put under spotlight
By Jon Silverman Legal affairs analyst
For the second time in three months, a teenage boy has died in a secure training centre and many legitimate questions are being asked about the standard of care and discipline in what critics call "child jails".
England's three secure training centres (STCs) hold 188 children, some as young as 12.
They are there because their behaviour is so wayward and challenging.
They are also there because they are highly vulnerable and the chief issue is whether staff are being adequately trained to deal with such vulnerability.
Fifteen-year-old Gareth Myatt, who died at Rainsbrook in Northamptonshire in April, was being physically restrained when he lost consciousness and the ongoing inquiry is focusing on the manner of that restraint.
Deborah Coles of the pressure group Inquest said there was evidence that restraint had also played a role in the death of 14-year-old Adam Rickwood, at Hassockfield in County Durham.
"We are very concerned about the over-use of restraint in the STCs," she added.
"And we need to know how much priority in staff training is given to suicide prevention and how much to working with such vulnerable children."
Despite the plethora of inquiries into this latest death - the Youth Justice Board, Premier Prisons, which runs Hassockfield, the Commission for Social Care Inspection and the Prisons Ombudsman are all involved - the Home Office is now under considerable pressure to mark the gravity of the problem by setting up a public inquiry.
If Parliament was sitting, the home secretary could expect to be lobbied by MPs, 30 of whom signed a motion in July calling for an inquiry into the death of 16-year-old Joseph Scholes at a young offenders institution in 1992.
There has never been a public inquiry into the death of a juvenile in custody and there are no signs that David Blunkett is about to announce one.
Court battle
Nor is the government impressed by criticism that the care of such vulnerable youngsters should not be in the hands of private contractors.
It is pointed out that staff-inmate ratios are relatively high and that private custody has tended to drive up standards in the public sector.
But ministers have already lost a court battle over their failure to apply the Children Act to the care of children in custody.
The lessons learned from the deaths of Adam Rickwood and Gareth Myatt may have an even more profound impact on the way these youngsters are treated.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/e ... 556922.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3556922.stm)
Published: 2004/08/11 19:53:16 GMT
© BBC MMVI
Remand teenager is found hanged
A 14-year-old has died after he was found hanged at a secure training centre in County Durham.
Staff at the privately-run Hassockfield Centre in Medomsley, near Consett, discovered the body of Adam Rickwood in the early hours of Monday.
Attempts were made to revive him, but he was pronounced dead in hospital.
Durham Police are not treating the death as suspicious. The teenager, from Burnley, Lancashire, was on remand facing a charge of wounding.
'Shocked and saddened'
His mother has been informed of the death and was travelling to north-east England.
The private centre is run by Premier Training Services Ltd, part of Premier Custodial Group, based in Berkshire, on behalf of the Youth Justice Board.
Premier spokesman, Dave Hill, said staff at the centre were "saddened and shocked" by the death.
He said: "We have offered our condolences to the family and believe three investigations are under way.
"We are investigating the circumstances, as are the police and Youth Justice Board.
"We are all very sad and shocked by what has happened."
'Tragic death'
The youngster was one of 43 young people, aged between 14 and 17, living at the centre on remand or carrying out community service orders.
Ellie Roy, chief executive of the Youth Justice Board, said: "Adam had been on remand in Hassockfield STC for one month.
"In accordance with our serious incidents procedure an investigation will be launched immediately by the Board in co-operation with the Prison and Probation Ombudsman and the Commission for Social Care Inspection."
Mr Roy added: "I would like to offer my sincere sympathy to Adam's family. We will do everything we can to help ensure that the circumstances of his tragic death are made known and that any lessons that need to be learnt will be."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/e ... 549094.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3549094.stm)
Published: 2004/08/09 16:01:20 GMT
© BBC MMVI
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On 2006-04-17 16:55:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And the people responsible are now facing charges. "
Do you like America? If you don't why are you trying to become an advocate for teenagers who live here? Because when you listed 'cool things about England' it seems like what you were really doing was listing what you dislike about America. The first two are reasonable, higher minimum wage, and lower taxes... sounds good to me. But the other seven things listed are all the things you consider bad about the US. I am kind of curious as to your motivation behind taking on these programs as a cause. I am not bashing you I am just curious.
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On 2006-04-17 07:26:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'll tell you guys what. You stop bashing England. I'll stop bashing America and we can all go back to playing happy families because the last time I checked we were allies."
Best idea I've heard all day. If we're going to be talking about scary stuff, we're going to have to be tough about it. Do you think I'm bashing my country when I tell you about the corrupt politicians and others who are going around spreading horrible lies about what we're all about here? Nothing could be further from the truth. The coolest thing ever about America goes all the way back to the Magna Carta on the European side of things and to the Iroquois Nation on this side of things.
The spiritual union of the nations began before European contact, replete with a Constitution recorded with special beads called wampum that served the same purpose as money in other cultures. Most Western anthropologists speculate that this Constitution was created sometime between the middle 1400s and early 1600s, but other scholars who account for Iroquois oral tradition argue that the event took place as early as 1100, with many arguing for August 31, 1142 based on a coinciding solar eclipse. Some Westerners have also suggested that this Constitution was written with European help, although most dismiss this notion as blatant racism.
http://www.crystalinks.com/iroquois.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/iroquois.html)
It is that we are Egalitarian at the root of it. Isn't England? And are our leaders and representatives from either country behaving as we would expect and hope? I don't think so.
If we're going to talk about it, we're going to have to not take it personally. See, this didn't happen to America overnight. It has been a slow and steady progression. I've had personal cause to give it much thought; I very accutely recognize the need to understand not just that this has happened, but far more importantly, how we did it. How did America fall for this? How is it that the proud nation that goes not abroad seeking monsters to destroy has been locked in an empassioned, deep, sloppy tongue kiss with the very same vile beast we set out to destroy?
Is it anti-American to speak of it? Or is it unpatriotic to ignore and neglect it.
They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved.
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
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Well I think the most important thing about this is that the British Government leanred of a potential problem, investigated it and is now resolving the issue. This is how we solve problems.
I hardly think that this is a an issue on anywhere near the level as abuse in the United States where these abuses are happening with the tacit (and in some cases explicit) permission of the authorities.
I've never seen badlads so I can't account for it. We're having the same problem with increasing antipathy towards young people in general but nothing like the teen concentration camps, curfews and travesties of juvenile justice you guys inflict on your youngsters.
Oh I agree it's spreading and to be frank Tony's relationship with the shrub is rather troubling.
However, I think there is more to gained by attacking the problem at it's root than by spreading alarm about the comparatively minor symptoms outside the United States.
The world follow's America's example.
And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at £5.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my £21000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for £2.05 (around $3.50)
You came in here with a holier-than-thou attitude about the US, of course people started harpin' on you.
I'm British and it gets right up my nose when people start laying into my home. If you attack Britain then you attack me and if you attack me you can definitely expect a reaction.
Well people are proud to be American too and when some foreigner comes telling them how to do things in their country it pisses them off too. You make it seem like americans are not capable of cleaning up their own mess or nobody has been doing anything.
You have seen the show Brat Camp, right?
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Well people are proud to be American too and when some foreigner comes telling them how to do things in their country it pisses them off too. You make it seem like americans are not capable of cleaning up their own mess or nobody has been doing anything.
You have seen the show Brat Camp, right? "
As an American willing to see the mistakes in our system, I appreciate input from other nations. How many Americans complain about these exact same flaws? Plenty.
Obviously, we're not capable of cleaning up our own mess. As we speak there are thousands of kids being emotionally destroyed through WWASP. I for one am grateful that someone cares enough about humanity as a whole to involve themselves in the cause, regardless of where they live.
And how bad can input from another country be if that country is far more concerned about the wellbeing of their children than we are? Obviously, it is possible to regulate these industries. Who is to say we don't need guidance from those who have experience in it?
And if you took his comments about Britain being "better" seriously, find a device to remove the stick from your ass.
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On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at ?.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my ?1000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for ?.05 (around $3.50)
"
Your country is a militaristic police state.
"WARNING-Climb Proof Paint In Action!!!"
Give me a break.
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On 2006-04-18 00:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at ?.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my ?1000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for ?.05 (around $3.50)
"
Your country is a militaristic police state.
"WARNING-Climb Proof Paint In Action!!!"
Give me a break."
Dont even get me started about that INNOCENT guy they murdered in the London Subway,then LIED about it.Thats just sick.
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On 2006-04-17 07:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 07:26:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I'll tell you guys what. You stop bashing England. I'll stop bashing America and we can all go back to playing happy families because the last time I checked we were allies."
There's only one guy bashing England and no one pays attention to him anyway. Don't sweat it."
Im not bashing England.
I like England.
Im just telling my travel experiences of England and what a bunch of uptight assholes they really are,when you visit them on their home turf.
The Germans will give you a warmer rezeption!
And I have never been to another country than England that had SO MANY retards walking around.Im talking about Monty Python style inbred fucking mental defectives walking around blathering on the street.
That shit is funny on Fawlty Towers,but when you have to ENDURE it in your tiny $60USD bedsit(toilet down the hall)day after day,it gets old real fast.
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On 2006-04-17 07:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
So... how'd WWII work out for you guys?"
Oh please! Come on, you can do better than that! :lol: :lol: "
English accents sound very feminine and dainty."
OH NO!Not another closet angliphile!
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On 2006-04-17 11:59:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Woot!!! Trip to Enland!!! Blackpool here I come!!!! Nice!!! haha
hmm I grew up with a cajin accient, very painful thing to listen to on a regular basis, because half of it is french anyway.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2006-04-17 12:00 ]"
Blackpool is an industrial shit hole with a seedy waterfront red light district.Just head up to SW Scotland and buy a cheap two week Rover Ferry Pass and visit all the islands.You want to see some inbred retards,head towards the western most islands.
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On 2006-04-17 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 05:13:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"And while I'm at it, here's a list of other cool things about England...
The minimum wage is set at ?.25/hour that's roughly $9 per hour. This guarantees a fair living wage to everyone.
I pay 15% tax on my ?1000 job, meaning I pay less tax than an American and I get fully comprehensive medical care thrown in on the NHS.
I can tell the difference between my political parties.
My country does not have a 50% obesity rate.
My country does not have 21000 gun deaths every year.
My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
My country does not impose illegal and unconstitutional curfews on minors 8 hours out of the day.
My country does not discriminate against homosexual couples who want to celebrate their union with marriage.
My local pub is older than the United States of America (opened in 1189)and I can buy a pint of Leffe there for ?.05 (around $3.50)
"
Are you quite certain about the incarceration thing?
Child 'jail' restraint criticised
An unacceptable level of pain is being used to restrain children in secure custody, a report says.
The independent investigation into the treatment of children in prison, led by Lord Carlile, found pain was used to enforce compliance.
That was "unacceptable" and may be illegal, the report said.
The investigation was set up following the death of a 15-year-old boy in a privately-run secure unit while he was being restrained by three adult staff.
The inquiry, commissioned by the Howard League for Penal Reform, looked into the use of restraint techniques and strip searching.
Varying figures
It found that physical force was used against youngsters 15,512 times during a 21-month period in England and Wales, with injuries to both staff and children not uncommon.
Liberal Democrat Lord Carlile said his team of advisors "shared my shock at some of the practices we witnessed".
"We found that some of the treatment children in custody experience would in another setting be considered abusive and could trigger a child protection investigation."
Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children Carolyne Willow Children's Rights Alliance for England
Figures varied between institutions - in which there are in total 2,800 children and young people held in England and Wales, including 200 girls.
At one secure training centre, Medway in Kent, 1,818 injuries to children as a result of restraint from January 2004 to June 2005 were reported.
At Rainsbrook near Rugby there were 118, Hassockfield in County Durham reported 177 and Oakhill in Milton Keynes listed 48 from its opening in September 2004 to August 2005.
A sample of five out of 24 local authority secure children's homes in England and Wales revealed 73 injuries to children from January 2004 to August 2005.
Young offenders institutions did not keep central records of how many children had been injured in restraint incidents.
The inquiry found some evidence that staff would "bait" children into situations that would lead to them being restrained for the adult's "own gratification".
The report accepts that many of the 10 to 17-year-olds held in young offender institutions, secure training centres and local authority secure children's homes have had chaotic and abusive childhoods and lack clear boundaries to their behaviour.
But it said that unnecessarily painful restraint techniques were used to deal with dissent in some institutions.
Handcuffs were used in the four privately-run secure training centres, something the inquiry says should stop.
And the need for a strip search should be based on evidence, something the report says would cut the number of strip searches by half.
The Youth Justice Board chairman Professor Rod Morgan said staff were encouraged to use non-physical methods to deal with difficult behaviour.
"We want to move to a situation where the staff have sufficient confidence and are sufficiently well-trained that they don't have to rely on physical restraint to the degree that in some instances they are currently doing," he said.
Mental health
However, he said there was an underlying problem about a lack of spaces for young offenders who had mental health problems - and should be in healthcare rather than custodial care.
Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes... they're still children Prison Reform Trust
He called for a three-part inter-departmental review - to look at children dealt with in the criminal courts and end up in custody; those dealt with in the family courts and end up in care; and those dealt with under the mental health act and end up in psychiatric care.
Children's Rights Alliance for England national co-ordinator Carolyne Willow, a member of Lord Carlile's advisory panel, said: "We are not talking here about children being hurt in the rough and tumble of restraint.
"Staff have permission to deliberately hurt children."
"As a former child protection social worker, I am stunned that this is allowed to happen."
The inquiry was told that one in five restraints of children resulted in injury.
'They're still children'
Director of the Prison Reform Trust Juliette Lyon says children are being failed by the prison system and they invariably end up re-offending.
Cases where children needed to be restrained should be the "rarest of rare events", she told BBC News.
"When you look at the number of times that physical restraints were used in the course of less than a year - thousands of times, on some quite young children - you realise it's being used as a matter of course when it's a disciplinary issue.
"Although children have behaved badly and some of them committed terrible crimes, although that is a minority, they're still children," she added.
Lord Carlile's report concludes that police should be ready to prosecute in cases where children appear to have been assaulted.
The inquiry was launched after the death of Gareth Myatt, 15, from Stoke-on-Trent, in April 2004.
He died after being restrained by three members of staff four days into his sentence at privately-run Rainsbrook secure training centre, near Rugby.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4722652.stm)
Published: 2006/02/17 08:53:46 GMT
?BBC MMVI
'Child jails' put under spotlight
By Jon Silverman Legal affairs analyst
For the second time in three months, a teenage boy has died in a secure training centre and many legitimate questions are being asked about the standard of care and discipline in what critics call "child jails".
England's three secure training centres (STCs) hold 188 children, some as young as 12.
They are there because their behaviour is so wayward and challenging.
They are also there because they are highly vulnerable and the chief issue is whether staff are being adequately trained to deal with such vulnerability.
Fifteen-year-old Gareth Myatt, who died at Rainsbrook in Northamptonshire in April, was being physically restrained when he lost consciousness and the ongoing inquiry is focusing on the manner of that restraint.
Deborah Coles of the pressure group Inquest said there was evidence that restraint had also played a role in the death of 14-year-old Adam Rickwood, at Hassockfield in County Durham.
"We are very concerned about the over-use of restraint in the STCs," she added.
"And we need to know how much priority in staff training is given to suicide prevention and how much to working with such vulnerable children."
Despite the plethora of inquiries into this latest death - the Youth Justice Board, Premier Prisons, which runs Hassockfield, the Commission for Social Care Inspection and the Prisons Ombudsman are all involved - the Home Office is now under considerable pressure to mark the gravity of the problem by setting up a public inquiry.
If Parliament was sitting, the home secretary could expect to be lobbied by MPs, 30 of whom signed a motion in July calling for an inquiry into the death of 16-year-old Joseph Scholes at a young offenders institution in 1992.
There has never been a public inquiry into the death of a juvenile in custody and there are no signs that David Blunkett is about to announce one.
Court battle
Nor is the government impressed by criticism that the care of such vulnerable youngsters should not be in the hands of private contractors.
It is pointed out that staff-inmate ratios are relatively high and that private custody has tended to drive up standards in the public sector.
But ministers have already lost a court battle over their failure to apply the Children Act to the care of children in custody.
The lessons learned from the deaths of Adam Rickwood and Gareth Myatt may have an even more profound impact on the way these youngsters are treated.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/e ... 556922.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3556922.stm)
Published: 2004/08/11 19:53:16 GMT
?BBC MMVI
Remand teenager is found hanged
A 14-year-old has died after he was found hanged at a secure training centre in County Durham.
Staff at the privately-run Hassockfield Centre in Medomsley, near Consett, discovered the body of Adam Rickwood in the early hours of Monday.
Attempts were made to revive him, but he was pronounced dead in hospital.
Durham Police are not treating the death as suspicious. The teenager, from Burnley, Lancashire, was on remand facing a charge of wounding.
'Shocked and saddened'
His mother has been informed of the death and was travelling to north-east England.
The private centre is run by Premier Training Services Ltd, part of Premier Custodial Group, based in Berkshire, on behalf of the Youth Justice Board.
Premier spokesman, Dave Hill, said staff at the centre were "saddened and shocked" by the death.
He said: "We have offered our condolences to the family and believe three investigations are under way.
"We are investigating the circumstances, as are the police and Youth Justice Board.
"We are all very sad and shocked by what has happened."
'Tragic death'
The youngster was one of 43 young people, aged between 14 and 17, living at the centre on remand or carrying out community service orders.
Ellie Roy, chief executive of the Youth Justice Board, said: "Adam had been on remand in Hassockfield STC for one month.
"In accordance with our serious incidents procedure an investigation will be launched immediately by the Board in co-operation with the Prison and Probation Ombudsman and the Commission for Social Care Inspection."
Mr Roy added: "I would like to offer my sincere sympathy to Adam's family. We will do everything we can to help ensure that the circumstances of his tragic death are made known and that any lessons that need to be learnt will be."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/e ... 549094.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3549094.stm)
Published: 2004/08/09 16:01:20 GMT
?BBC MMVI
"
Consett,lovely place.Benn there many times.
Lots of misguided youths there though,but not to worry,CCTV Cameras are going up at a staggering rate in this quaint village on the road between Newcastle and Co Durham.Its Mr Bean's (Rowan Adkinson) home town,but I hear he's a real wanker in person.
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On 2006-04-17 17:41:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Here's the thing.
I truly deepy and passionately love America. I really do. However I'm not American. I'm British and it gets right up my nose when people start laying into my home. If you attack Britain then you attack me and if you attack me you can definitely expect a reaction.
[ This Message was edited by: MightyAardvark on 2006-04-17 17:47 ]"
Just look at what happened to those treacherous Iraqis who attacked England's green and pleasent land.
Who's laughing now,Bin Laden...er..or was it Saddam?
Just give em' a short sharp shot,you dig it?
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On 2006-04-16 00:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-15 22:22:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"The food tastes like shit. Go to a good indo take away or get some good paki curry. Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
"
I second that motion.
You can,however,go to a supermarket and find pre made international foods that are quite good,and I usually steer towards the Indian/Paki stuff.
Dont be fooled by what Englanders call "sausage",its in fact just bread soaked in pork fat and stuffed in to a sausage casing.
There are shops that sell sandwiches and "pasties",cheap small meat pies.
And dont be fooled by "English Breakfast",because usually it is a VERY HARD bread roll with butter,served with a dish of jelly that has been in the fridge so long it has formed a 1/4 inch thick skin.
If you want a proper English Breakfast then you had better state that point clearly and be ready to hand over a lot of money for it.
I survive on the cheapest food in England,Spighettios and 9p Beans at Budgins Best Supermarket.
Warning!The Low Fat Milk has a red cap,and the Full Milk has a blue cap,and "Double Cream" is much to thick to put in your coffee,you should buy "Single Cream" for coffee.
Englanders soap up their dishes,but never rinse ANY of the soap off before drying,so you had better rinse them your self or you will have a case of the shits like you wont believe.
Englanders dont like showers,so all the bath tubs have only hot/cold spigots,but they are a foot apart,so you cant blend warm water,so it is impossible to rinse the soap out of your hair with warm water.
Go to Germany if you want to be treated warmly,Brits are so uptight and constipated all the time,and Im talking about my friends."
Yup.
Sounds like harmless travel tips to me. :wstupid:
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Can you even imagine how the rest of the world might view this argument? Shit, if they could have it, they'd instigate war between the US and Brittain, then they'd only have the Chinese government and the Islamic fanatics to deal with.
:roll:
We have the same problems of the same origins and, most troubling of all to me, thriving and spreading thanks to our common bigotry and blind spots.
I refuse to engage in a conversation about who sucks more. We have a serious fucking problem here, folks! We must address it, no matter how embarrasing it may be to discuss it at times.
My country has fallen, hook-line-and sinker, for what amounts to a sadistic cult. Brittain is following close on our heels, though I must admit you guys have a much more interesting, intelligent and functional congress than we do (yeah, yeah, I know, "House of Commons" but the name rankles... commoner! FU! LOL)
But that's slipping fast, Ardvark! The ppl around you are getting more like those around Blitzburgh (a drinking town w/ a football problem) All of that rich sardony and adept mastry of political language and history is lost on many of your neighbors just as it would be lost on most Americans.
How about we quit being so damned thin skinned and, instead, see if we can come up w/ some nifty ideas for heading off our common impending disaster?
But if you really were all about America bashing all along, go in peace but watch your back. You misunderesimate us. :razz:The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.
--Thomas Jefferson
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I agree. So where in America were you thinking of moving to?
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"And I have never been to another country than England that had SO MANY retards walking around.Im talking about Monty Python style inbred fucking mental defectives walking around blathering on the street."
Yes, the UK, and the rest of the civilized world, needs to recognize that we in the USA have solved the problem expressed above, which I will refer to as the "FMD" problem.
Here, we insist that the most egregious FMDs blather, not on the street, but on their own TV show (typically entitled "The [insert name here] Factor"), on their own talk radio show on the Excellence in Broadcasting network, or in their own newspaper column for Universal Press Syndicate.
While ratings seems to indicate that most Americans find this solution quite entertaining, it doesn't put much of a dent in the total number of American FMDs who would otherwise be blathering on the streets, so we use up bunches of them to blather on various TV shows (e.g., The McLaughlin Group, Hardball, This Week with George Stephanopoulos, the 700 Club, Crossfire (until it got canceled after security broke down and a few of them escaped into GenPop), The View), entire media outlets (e.g., the Fox News Network, CBS, QVC), and/or branches of the Federal government (e.g., CNN, State of the Union speeches, Vice Presdential debates). These FMDs, in turn, pick their buddies to staff other media outlets, Cabinet positions, and public relations companies.
No, we here in the greatest country in the world do not tolerate FMDs "walking around blathering on the street." We get them off the street and on to our TV screens, where they belong.
God bless the USA.
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Aardvark, what do you suppose was Roger Waters' inspiration for The Wall?
No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles
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So then millions of fans just read something into it that wasn't there? Cause I damned sure understood the theme. And I've never been to England or done acid. So then.... how can that be?
Maybe we have the same problems brewing. Maybe even from the same wellsprings?
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;
[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-18 15:26 ]
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I'm talking about the same ones and likely caused by the same people. I'm not looking at this with a mind toward assigning blame and seeking retribution or anything. (refer to my sig line) I'm looking at it with a mind toward heading it off.
screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
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My country does not incarcerate minors on no charge in facilities where they will be abused
Really?
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#185998 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14795&forum=9&start=0#185998)
excerpts
It found that physical force was used against youngsters 15,512 times during a 21-month period in England and Wales, with injuries to both staff and children not uncommon.
Figures varied between institutions - in which there are in total 2,800 children and young people held in England and Wales, including 200 girls.
At one secure training centre, Medway in Kent, 1,818 injuries to children as a result of restraint from January 2004 to June 2005 were reported.
At Rainsbrook near Rugby there were 118, Hassockfield in County Durham reported 177 and Oakhill in Milton Keynes listed 48 from its opening in September 2004 to August 2005.
A sample of five out of 24 local authority secure children's homes in England and Wales revealed 73 injuries to children from January 2004 to August 2005.
Young offenders institutions did not keep central records of how many children had been injured in restraint incidents.
The inquiry found some evidence that staff would "bait" children into situations that would lead to them being restrained for the adult's "own gratification".
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If it was happening in England I'd oppose it here.
It is.
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On 2006-04-18 17:31:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
Frankly I can't believe how anyone can be such a despicable human being that they would attack me for lending my skills and time to the fight against child abuse because I'm making Americans look bad.
Boredom? No life? Pissed at the world in general and doesn't really know what to do about it?
Take your pick.
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Well, please ignore the petty shit and let's get at the meat. I think if you look back and also watch that TB video w/ an eye for it, you'll find that a lot of this discussion could be easily taken as anti American. I don't balk much or assume it's a response to anything helpful I've ever done.
How bad is it over there? I haven't gone out of my way to keep up. How was the reception to Brat Camp? How broad is the base? Did it backfire at all, do ya think? Are they having cops teach school kids about drugs and gangs like we have DARE doing here? It really did send a chill down my spine when I read about Prince Harry going into rehab for mj. There are only a rare few who believe that posession of mj is evidence enough to dx a substance abuse problem and they're all completely nuts. And, given my history w/ these programs, it might not be a stretch to say I'm seperated from none of them by more than 5 degrees, so I would know. lol
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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to the mean then
First, Prince Harry is an officer in the British army. He commands a Challenger squadron, but for his royal connections possession of marajuana (class C over here, like Aspirin you don't even get arrested to having it a civillian) would have totally ended his career. A spell in rehab for him is a face saving gesture. The British media practically stalk the Royal family and the Sun in particular has been known to outright lie about them
Second, drugs education here is conducted by specially trained social workers and the like as part of the school curriculum. Drugs awareness is actually taught as part of the same program that teaches about the hazards of smoking, alchohol etc. It works pretty well combined with our rehab focussed sentacing arrangements and the liberal laws regarding marajuana.
Two years ago Lincoln city council attempted to enact a juvenile curfew. It was struck down by the high court because it was deemed that is violated a child's right to free association.
It's a hard time to be young anywhere in the world right now, it's definitely difficult in England, the media has run out of scapegoats (can't blame jews, negroes, asians any more and it can't possibly be white middle class males) so juvenile misbehaviour is focussed on and exaggerated. ASBOs are worrying but not tremendously oppressive as they are usually exercised with considerable restraint.
The most worrying thing is CCTV, but since that effects all ages it's not really a problem.
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Come to the west coast of the states if you want liberal marijuana laws, especially California. There are something like 45 retail medical marijuana shops now in S.F city. :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:
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Bah, druggies... hahah
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On 2006-04-18 18:28:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
to the mean then
First, Prince Harry is an officer in the British army. He commands a Challenger squadron, but for his royal connections possession of marajuana (class C over here, like Aspirin you don't even get arrested to having it a civillian) would have totally ended his career. A spell in rehab for him is a face saving gesture. The British media practically stalk the Royal family and the Sun in particular has been known to outright lie about them
Yes, and it was also a royal endorsement of the idea of treatment for supposed mj 'addiction' in general and, possibly, the type of treatment specifically. Just like CEDU and Synanon here in the US recruited a whole lot of celebrities. It was the vogue thing to do to send your kid to one of these places. Barbara Walters, Roseanne Barr sent their kids. Walters' daugher even opened up her own. I wonder if they're doing the same kind of promo over there.
Second, drugs education here is conducted by specially trained social workers and the like as part of the school curriculum. Drugs awareness is actually taught as part of the same program that teaches about the hazards of smoking, alchohol etc. It works pretty well combined with our rehab focussed sentacing arrangements and the liberal laws regarding marajuana.
That's pretty much what we've got here, but the specially trained social workers carry 9mm side arms and wear badges. Craziest shit you ever thought you'd see in a country like this one.
We also have 'rehab focused sentencing arrangements' Here's a bit on the proud founder of that idea, Janet Rambo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Reno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Reno)
All good intentions aside, it is dangerous to allow the courts to diagnose illness based on a person's willingness to comply w/ a particular law.
Two years ago Lincoln city council attempted to enact a juvenile curfew. It was struck down by the high court because it was deemed that is violated a child's right to free association.
It's a hard time to be young anywhere in the world right now, it's definitely difficult in England, the media has run out of scapegoats (can't blame jews, negroes, asians any more and it can't possibly be white middle class males) so juvenile misbehaviour is focussed on and exaggerated. ASBOs are worrying but not tremendously oppressive as they are usually exercised with considerable restraint.
The most worrying thing is CCTV, but since that effects all ages it's not really a problem.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Grace Llewellyn wrote a book themed on the idea in `91; The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education
http://www.lowryhousepublishers.com/Tee ... ndbook.htm (http://www.lowryhousepublishers.com/TeenageLiberationHandbook.htm)
It's a fairly good book. It's probably been 10 years or more since I read it, but I remember a comparison between Europe and America in those days. I think she mentioned that there were still youth hostles and kids as young as 12 or so routinely riding city transit w/o escort and such. Believe it or not, that's how it was in So. Florida when I was a little kid in the early `70's. I could't wait to get to be a teenager so I could have a job and car and be able to just up and go to the beach w/o waiting for a ride w/ an adult. When I got there, things had changed. A kid could still wander, but it would draw suspicion where it didn't used to. You didn't see kids out hanging around, it was discouraged. And hitchhiking was definitely out!
I'm wondering if you're seeing that kind of tightening up going on over the years and what kind of commentary or response you're seeing. If we had it to do over again, I think that response and commentary would probably be worth focusing on.
Legalizing drugs is far from a panacea for all the distress caused by drugs, but it will eliminate most of the profit and corruption from the drug trade.
--Nobel laureate, Gary S. Becker
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Hardly my friend TSW, I just never like drug use, thats always been my stand. Its illegal, and I dont think its smart, so I make fun of people that use drugs, simple as that.
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Just because I say to be civil? :flame: I Dont want to be sued!!!
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On 2006-04-19 07:34:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Just because I say to be civil? :flame: I Dont want to be sued!!!"
The terrorists have won.
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On 2006-04-19 06:45:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Hardly my friend TSW, I just never like drug use, thats always been my stand. Its illegal, and I dont think its smart, so I make fun of people that use drugs, simple as that."
You were being serious before?! :roll: I thought you were making fun of straight how they used that word "druggie" all the time. Marijuana was not considered a drug until this govt. decided to make it one and propogandized the entire population over the past few generations. Step away from the Kool-Aid -- think for yourself -- it's an herb. Maybe if it came in pill form people would be okay with it?? :wink:
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I dont like the use of drugs ::shrugs:: your not going to change that view, its not like it really matters either.
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so I make fun of people that use drugs
:smokin:
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And as you can see they make fun of me :rofl:
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On 2006-04-19 07:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-19 07:34:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Just because I say to be civil? :flame: I Dont want to be sued!!!"
The terrorists have won."
He's been sued.
He's probably still going through the process of learning how to slam the hell out of obnoxious people who really ought to be criticized *without* saying anything actionable.
I'm not a lawyer, consult one before you "play," this is not specific legal advice, this is all my personal layman's understanding of defamation law, which may vary from state to state.
It is not illegal to criticize rotten people.
It *is* illegal to bring a frivolous, malicious lawsuit.
When you criticize a public figure, when you state something as fact, it doesn't have to be provably true, but you *do* have to be able to prove by a "more likely than not" standard that you didn't act with reckless disregard for the truth.
Repeated and various news articles about a particular person or company can be used to establish that some person or company is a public figure, but you don't want to push it. If you push it, the judge will consider it not obvious and your complaint that a lawsuit is frivolous will go out the window.
When you criticize someone who's not a public figure, what you say has to be true. For example, I can say that *allegedly* Tranquility Bay uses restraints as an excuse to beat up kids and uses punishments that deliberately cause kids severe sunburn, putting them at lifelong increased risk of skin cancers.
I can say that WWASPS sued PURE for defamation over many allegations of child abuse and lost.
Those are facts. Those allegations have in fact been made. That lawsuit is a matter of public record. I haven't said the accusations are provably true---I very carefully haven't said it.
I can say any opinion I want *so long as I say it's my opinion*. I can say that *in my opinion* WWASPS is abusive, neglectful, and a dangerous place to send any child.
None of that is actionable.
Overlordd could have said that *in his opinion* certain allegations made against Litchfield were probably true and that he personally believed the allegations and Litchfield wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in trying to sue him.
Overlordd forgot to say the magic words "in my opinion," and that's why he could be sued and not have the suit be frivolous.
This is my opinion as far as I can tell from having read an online copy of the complaint against him. Which, iirc, was by Litchfield, but I may be mistaken.
The most essential function of free speech is that nobody is immune from criticism, so that people can decide for themselves what they think of folks accused of bad things---even when the accusation is not provable but only a suspicion or speculation. Suspicion, speculation, or opinion just has to be labeled as such.
If someone uses the magic words "in my opinion" and gets hit with a slap suit, they can countersue for malicious prosecution and bringing a frivolous lawsuit, and not only can the person suing be hit for attorney's fees but the judge can punish the lawyer for bringing the suit in the first place.
Judges rarely do that, but the more often a lawyer brings slap suits, and the more people complain of frivolous, malicious cases--when the complaint is justifiable---the more likely a judge is to get fed up and really sock it to the lawyer.
Lawyers know this. Lawyers will tell the plaintiffs about their exposure for attorney's fees.
Also, if you sue someone for saying something "in my opinion" and lose---which you will---then everybody else forever after can quote your loss of the lawsuit as a fact, which makes the allegation look true. Trying to shut them up with an obvious loser of a defamation suit makes the person suing look overly defensive and makes people wonder, quite reasonably, what they have to hide.
Avoiding legally defaming someone is not hard. You just have to know where the lines are and make an effort not to cross them.
If you accidentally cross them, then when the lawyer complains, instead of pulling your posts, you can "remove the element of intent" by *revising* the posts to clarify that what you said is either repeating someone else's allegation, and that *allegedly* the guy suing you did such and so, OR that what you said is only your personal opinion.
For example, if you say (hypothetically) "OJ Simpson is a murderer" and get a nasty lawyer letter, you can always clarify, "My opinion is that the jury got it wrong and that OJ Simpson is a murderer." The first is actionable, the second is not. Contrary to what OJ's lawyer might imply, you don't have to delete what you said to "remove the element of intent." Instead, you can clarify that OJ has been accused of murder or allegedly murdered Nicole or that it is your opinion that he murdered Nicole. Abracadabra, you're no longer defaming OJ. Abracadabra, if they keep suing you, you can tell the judge that you meant to say, always, that what you think of OJ is just your opinion, but you accidentally weren't clear and you're very sorry.
This last only works if you habitually clarify what's someone else's allegation that you're quoting, and what's your opinion, and if you genuinely slipped and weren't clear about that.
Or that you really meant to say something else that is critical but provably factual and just accidentally got some details wrong---and corrected it immediately when your inadvertent error was pointed out to you.
Newspapers do this all the time: "Allegedly," "In this reporter's opinion," "In the editorial staff's opinion," or by printing a correction in small print on the last page.
Nobody is immune from criticism. You cannot legally shut your critics up with defamation suits or the threat of them. There are penalties in the legal system against people who try to silence their legitimate critics, including those clearly speaking any opinion they happen to have of the person criticized.
All you have to do is know your rights.
And know the rights of the people you criticize.
And know the standard of proof. My understanding is that if someone sues you for defamation for a factual accusation you made against them, you only have to prove that your accusation is more likely to be true than not.
If you want to criticize someone who habitually hits people with slap suits, you should consult a lawyer and make sure you criticize them fairly and safely.
People who want to intimidate their critics don't have to be allowed to win. Nobody has the right to silence fair criticism.
Julie
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Overlordd, it's not illegal to use drugs. Sorry, it's just not. You can dink alcohol, eat amphetamines, zone out on Prozac or Welbutrin or, if you prefer. The choices are practically endless. Then there are the poor SOBs who are mandated by law and/or regulation to take drugs they don't want. How many kids hooked on ritalin cause Mom's been threatened w/ medical neglect charges and that whole fast train ride down a slippery slope?
Psychotropic drugs can be dangerous, it's true. But they never have been a huge problem in all of civilized history. Hypocracy, authoritarianism, misguided and zealot social engineering--the will to power--far more intoxicating than any drug.
I make fun of that.I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect
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On 2006-04-19 01:37:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"Yes absolutely things are very definitely getting worse over here. I don't that could be disupted for half a second. The fact is though that British social and political trends tend to run after American trends and very often the most powerful forces pushing in any given direction can be found coming from the other side of the Atlantic. American drug war crusaders pressuring successive British governments have pushed us a lot further down the crime and punishment path that we ought to have gone.
For this reason, if the trend of authoritarianism, fear of youth and the criminalisation of adolescence is going to be opposed it must be opposed as close to the root cause as possible. The root cause is American right wing Christian fundamentalism back up by the astonishing wealth and influence these people wield.
Therefore, rather than waiting for America to succumb to creeping moral paralysis and then fighting a second line in Britain, I'll fight it in America, and hope that I never have to fight it in Britain."
Amsterdam has the weed,but if you just pop over the channel by ferry to Newcastle,you will find the weed/hash much cheaper on the street than in the coffee shops of Amsterdam.
Got any "tack"?