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Messages - GregFL

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The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Congratulations Ginger
« on: August 07, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
First, yes I do respect your efforts, Greg.

And I yours Ginger.  Don't ever doubt that.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Congratulations Ginger
« on: August 07, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
First, yes I do respect your efforts, Greg. However I don't think you really get how close to impossible it would be to separate the old moderated conversation from the newer unmoderated stuff. Where do you draw the line when stuff you don't like is attached to old threads you want to preserve? What about the stuff you do like that came after you quit moderating?


Peace to you as well.

I am talking about a split right at where I left, not about seperating the wheat from the chaff.  Again, draw a date in the sand, archive the old forum and transfer the rest over., renaming the new forum "the unmoderated seed discussion forum" or whatever you think is appropriate.

 I also volunteer my time to do it. Of course I may need some technical assistance but I am willing to do it.  I think the old conversation and the new conversation are so different that we owe it to the reader to seperate them.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: leaa and yeah, you right.
« on: August 07, 2009, 12:00:38 PM »
Quote from: "justonemore"
I think I just 'got it'
to wit , it would make sense if stack is gay/ perverted..BECAUSE OF THE SEED. if he was abused ,and found he liked it, if that's possible, ( i think not in a normal paradigm) and here i use 'normal' in an aristotelian sense, not the common mathemetic, bell-curve sense. I think that's so. i think it true.
If he was sexually abused in the seed, then it would explain his raging against the seed, and anyone he perceives as having a normal life. he feels fouled, and dirty. He hates himself for being the way he is, and he hates anyone who's not. If his sisters know that, and women-folk have ways, it would explain their irrational defense of him.It's why he always claims to be more than he is, and wants always to 'best' men, loathes little girls, and never mentions women. he actually sees himself as a hurt  little girl, and the world's gonna pay.
Stack constantly threatens violence, projects violence against helpless others, derides and ridicules those he sees as more powerful, more potent. and seeks to befoul the 'normal'. In text, there are frequent mis-spellings, mis-use of words, all functions of an inadequate and grandiose intellect. I'd just casually, of course, estimate the I.Q. at 90, no better. Low end of normal, compounded by severely impacted rage.He's a mess, a real true facts, garbage heap mess, a poster child for why we need never have places like the seed, and why we will always need prisons. Even the weak can be violent, if only in their dreams . ::unhappy::  ::unhappy::
if a near about fifty year old boy thinks this is a way to express himself, and gain the attention of adults, well, that's a scream for help that i can not answer. it's beyond me. well' I've about called the tune. Not everyone is wired the same way, some animals drool and bite, them're the one's you shoot and walk away from. it's sad, but true. past a  certain point, i have no sympathy at all, as it's incumbent for each of us to recognize our own sins, our own faults, and address them.(BEFORE THEY BECOME PATHOLOGIC, BEFORE THEY HARM OTHERS,BEFORE IT'S FINAL)
 Well, that's the disease process, as i see it. 'CHUSS' better days, aww, here's my buddy ! ::unhappy::

Is there a "Standing Ovation" Smiley?

 I guess not, this will have to do.

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Congratulations Ginger
« on: August 07, 2009, 11:37:18 AM »
So, My experiment with the forum consisted of allowing anyone to speak their mind as long as they spoke about the topic and I tried to moderate it in a similar way a formal debate would be moderated. That is, to try to remove my personal bias from the conversation and allow the conversation to progress on its own, without manipulation.

We can argue back and forth which approach yields better results, but for now lets leave that out.

To me the forum was a huge success, but it also required me spending a lot of time on it, in addition to helping Ginger administrate the entire forum.  Ginger always thought all the forums should be unmoderated but respected my efforts ( I think) and allowed me to do it my way.  However, when I left for personal reasons, She just let  the forum go the rest into the fornits unmoderated. In addition, she added new (and effective) personalities to the mix like Psy who share her philosophy about the forum.

That is really the whole story.  My only issue with this forum and the current admin(s) is that leaving  the Seed Discussion forum up in its current condition is unfair due to the fact that it is a blended[/b] conversation.  Had I been thinking properly and to the future, when I stopped moderating it I would have asked Ginger to archive it at that point, and I am sure she would have done it.  then she could have thrown up a new forum, say.."the Seed unmoderated forum" and people wouldn't be angry and pissed at the way the former conversation is lost under the new one.

That request still stands for Ginger and/or PSY to cut it off where I left off and start a new one from there.  Not one conversation needs to be lost, not even the most vile and disqusting ones from the most vile and disqusting people.  We would just have clarity of purpose and philosophy between the two forums. That is all that would be accomplished, and not one person has to be censored or otherwise have their rights to be an  antisocial  sociopathic asshole infringed upon.

I would like to request that anyone who agrees with me to please respectfully write ginger a PM and tell her so.  If Neither Psy or Ginger wants to do the work, they can grant me temporary Admin rights and I will do it.  As a former Admin of the entire Fornits site, Ginger is well aware of my character and trustworthyness and my ability to accomplish this task  while respecting her wishes  and I think the problem will be resolved.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Congratulations Ginger
« on: August 07, 2009, 11:23:55 AM »
Let me pipe in here a minute. Maybe I can put some perspective on this.

Let's remove the personalities from the equation for a minute and talk about how and why and what is going on. I apologize in advance because this will take some wind to explain in detail.

First, Ginger started fornits on her own and modeled it after a forum she spent some time arguing successfully on.  I believe this was alt.lawenforcement.  This forum was completely unmoderated and had similar problems/results as the rest of fornits does now. However Ginger noticed that the unmoderated format, in addition to the trolls, various logins, etc allowed for a certain amount of "truth" (tm) to bubble up to the surface.

When Ginger started fornits it was pretty much about Straight, Inc.  However she was prodding me to add a forum about the Seed and frankly I was very hesitant to do it.  My passion for debate could not be accomplished on an unmoderated forum where everyone could just attack people and shout down any argument you were winning (or losing).  My experience in the regular straight forum was frustrating to me for this very reason.  I have always enjoyed debate, but I don't like dealing with people who aren't up to the task and try to 'win' in ways that are reprehensible.

One day I called Ginger and told her to put the Seed forum up but that I was going to run it differently and try to attract all sides to a conversation where we could learn about the history of the program and talk to the people directly who were on the inside of Barker's kooky little cult.  In context, we were missing big pieces of the puzzle.  the how, who and when this thing developed from Barker's kooky  personality cult into a chain of rehabs that existed (with the dire of Barker) until the present.  I WANTED TO KNOW.  I also felt very vindicated from talking out my lingering issues from the Seed and wanted to offer this opportunity to everyone, Staffers and insiders, unwilling kids forced into the program, etc. to really have an opportunity to understand what occured and to resolve their own lingering issues.  It was my way to try to help right a  perceived wrong, to give a gift to everyone who was there  that had a hard time processing the experience,  An opportunity to talk about something that no one would talk about, and to do so in a manner that was comfortable and offered a chance of healing and vindication. (cont)

The Seed Discussion Forum / 1800stackthepedo
« on: August 02, 2009, 09:53:38 PM »
Hey stack, libby stole your underwear so now you post about raping children, dismembering people  and anal sex with men.

 :waaaa:  :waaaa:  :waaaa:  :waaaa:

Nothing you will ever say will make it right.  No one will ever want anything to do with you here again.

Get the fuck out and go back to the pervert chat rooms from where you came. No one likes you here except [email protected] and that is only as long as you keep paying for it.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 06:08:03 PM »
Quote from: "psy"

Yes, but in a way that respect was artificially engineered.  

Not, it was earned by the particpants and the understanding that flowed from these pages.  You see, that forum had a way of weeding out the trolls.  The unmoderated forum has a way of weeding out people with no tolerance for trolls.  The end result is two different groups of people, with of course some overlap.

My request still respecfully stands to seperate the prior forum from the unmoderated one.  Please discuss this with Ginger and let me know. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

I'll discuss it with her, but I can't say it'll be likely that your request will be granted.[/quote]

Thanks, I appreciate the effort and the conversation.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Take it somewhere else, guys
« on: July 30, 2009, 04:52:43 PM »
Quote from: "guest3"
Take a deep breath, Greg, and re-read my request. I'm asking that you and psy take your discussion elsewhere.

Oops.  Sorry.  I misread your request.

Don't worry this conversation is playing out about now.  We don't agree, and in absent of two people say, threatening each others kids or whatever, how far can you talk out a disagreement?  We both pretty much have strong(SUBJECTIVE) opinions on this topic and I think we both have a pretty healthy dose of mutual respect.

So yes to your request.  It will stop soon if it hasn't already.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 04:45:45 PM »
Maybe hanging around this verbal  sewer for so long is skewering your definitions and making you obfuscate the difference between polite and attack.

Maybe this will help

po·lite    (p-lt) KEY  

po·lit·er , po·lit·est
Marked by or showing consideration for others, tact, and observance of accepted social usage.

at·tack    (-tk) KEY  

at·tacked , at·tack·ing , at·tacks

To set upon with violent force.
To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner.

The forum had a strong threshold for definition of attack.  Someone could criticise strongly, for example, but not so much in  a hostile manner.  Politeness was never required but many offered it anyway.  

Again...perfect? No

Better than the rest of fornits  in my subjective opinion?   By a country mile.

As Ginger is fond of saying, your mileage may vary.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: Take it somewhere else, guys
« on: July 30, 2009, 04:32:53 PM »
Uh, sorry but I am not having any discussion with that guy. I am discussing something with Psy however. Sorry to rain on the troll parade, and please carryon without me.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 04:17:51 PM »
Quote from: "psy"

It seems as if you want to have a private discussion where we can invite the staff in for a nice little tea party.  After everything so many survivors have been through, do you really find it appropriate to tell them one more time they have to be polite to their tormentors?  I have to say I find that notion a tad bit offensive in itself.  They dished it out in program and if they can't take it back... fuck em.  Then that's their choice not to participate (and at least they have it... at least they can turn off the fucking screen which is not exactly an option in program).

This is where we get a peek at your bais and why you really want an unmoderated forum.  There is no wish for a fair conversation just a format where you can stick it to your perceived tormentors.

That is fine Psy, just state your intentions and stop pretending this format yields an objective fair discussion.  My intention was never a tea party but rather an environment where people could discuss the topic in a manner they felt safe and provide as fair a conversation as I could.  I already knew what the unmoderated forum yielded.  Most of us left respecting each other, including people who spent their entire lives at the inner core of the cult and those felt most abused by the seed.   This has been a very good conversation by most accounts.

BTW, again, THIS FORUM WAS NEVER MODERATED FOR POLITENESS.   .  No one was allowed to threaten harm against others or post obscene material, rant obscenities and sling repeated insults at others.  There were many conversations that were anything but polite.  Gottake a peek in the archives.

My request still respecfully stands to seperate the prior forum from the unmoderated one.  Please discuss this with Ginger and let me know. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:59:08 PM »
Let me try to convey this to you again Psy.   THAT NEVER HAPPENED.  This forum was NEVER moderated in that manner.  If someone said "all program parents were evil" that would be a topic of conversation.  If someone said "I am going to cut off your father's head and skull f*ck it", that would be moderated.

Tricky? yes. Perfect? No.

Better than this?  By a country mile.

In my subjective opinion.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:49:27 PM »
BTW, please excuse any formatting errors.  Something is wrong when the paragraph gets below a certain point it is very hard to see and type.  Is this some sort of bug?

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:47:21 PM »
Quote from: "psy"

OK.  So what is your definition of a forum as a success?

The prior forum.


  Example:  When I came to this forum nearly everybody viewed parents as intrinsically misguided and evil for sending their kids to program.  Over time, that has changed significantly as posters have been exposed to information regarding exactly how parents are fooled, how thought reform works, et

Your contributions notwithstanding, this is not true. As an example, 9 years ago we had a computer converance with a founder of the Straight and no one even suggested he was evil.  Misquided maybe, but hell they all were. There are still those today, some on this forum right now, who think they are evil people and somehow were immune to the processes.

 In addition,  we were exporing thought reform and how it works almost ten years ago.

 I'd like to think the forum as a whole learns, and I think that can only truly happen when nobody interferes with the "thought process"...  even with the best of intentions.  Sure, it can be harsh, but i you can wade through the BS, there are a lot of gems on this forum an a lot of real discussion.

And someone is always interfering with the thought process when people take the focus off the subject and start threatening others, insulting their families, and generally purposely ruining the conversation. You seem to imply purity of conversation exists when no rules of engagement are established.  You ignore the totality of human nature when you do so.

Also, sure you can wade thru the bullshit  if you can take the pain. Many people won't/can't and they leave the conversation. There is a growing list of them.  As trolls take their place, the forum becomes more unruly.  

I was thinking in the car today.  I find it sad that so many people no longer seem able to absorb and process unfiltered information on their own...  they want some moderator to filter it into an easily digestible piece of text.  well...  there is nothing about this industry that is easily digestible and I think filtering out the muck takes the authenticity out of the discussion.  As it is, i feel this is a pure snapshot of the troubled teen industry with all the crazy and fallout preserved on both sides.

You preface your sentences with "I feel".  We both have subjective opinions, no?


Just please  if you have the time archive the forum at the point I left, and rename the new forum "I  hate the seed and dare you to come in here".   That would be more honest.

No, it it would not be honest since anybody can post anything here... .

No, it would be more honest.  What you have now is a blended conversation.  Archiving the old moderated forum at the point it stopped being moderated and starting the new one from there would make it clear to all which conversation they were in.   This is unprecendented in Fornits history, and I understand the request would take some work, but I would appreciate it in light of the years I spent nurturing the former conversation.

And In conclusion I would like to say thank you Psy for being the admin of fornits.  You have brought a lot to the table and it is guys like you that will bring this topic forward. I don't have to always agree with you to respect you.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 30, 2009, 03:24:44 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "susantoo"
here's my defintion of objective (which is what I was aiming for, so, thanks for recognizing it):

Not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
In other words, not human.

To view anything objectively requires a human, Psy.  If we are talking about conversations (not concrete objects) without a sensient being to make a determination objectivity cannot exist.  It is a concept, and concepts don't exist outside of a mind to determine (subjectively) whether or not a conversation is objective or not.  The philosophical definition of objective (this is afterall what we are talking about) generally speaking is  "Independent of anyone's personal viewpoint."

Does an objective conversation flow from an unmoderated forum, one  where people who understand computers better can gain the upper hand?  Where people who will visciouly attack others can scare away those that don't?  Where the majority can rule by bullying tactics?

Does an objective conversation flow from a moderated forum where rules of conduct are established and applied evenly to everyone?

The answer is no, not in either case.  Subjectivity always creeps in.  The question then is which system allows for a greater likelyhood of a (mostly) fair conversation?

This is a matter of opinion that Ginger and I have disagreed over for years.  As a former ADMIN of fornits (the guy who used to do the thankless job you do now) I know first hand how hard it is to just control spam, let alone moderate a conversation.  For you to claim the unmoderated fornits site yields objectively fair conversations is beyond subjective, it is naive and would only be an opinion of someone filtering these conversations thru their own bias.  Fornits has always been populated by a group of somewhat angry people placed in abusive programs that pile on and personally attack  anyone who comes in with a contrary viewpoint.  Understandable or not,  that undermines immediately any hope of an objective conversation unless someone institutes rules to stop it and applies them across the board. This is extremely difficult as I will attest to.

I understand philosophically why Ginger wants an unmoderated forum, just please stop calling it objective.  That is beyond silly.

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