Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Robin Martin on August 12, 2005, 02:46:00 AM
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When I 'stumbled' on this forum, (actually, in a time-warp, googled "The Seed" one night) I was ecstatic! What a hoot to find all of us 'pros' and 'cons' discussing something obviously very near and dear to ALL of us! It was great to read all the posts, opinions, memories and trivia. We've all shared our sentiments, sorrows, elations, etc. It's brought a flood of memories to the front of my brain I had stowed but will never forget. Yes, it's bitter-sweet, with all our wonderful stories and varied perceptions (as clarified as they are) the obvious fact remains; we are all fairly intelligent individuals with our passions, soul and spirit intact. Therefore, the slant towards the "cons" vs the "pros" is not dissimilar to the reporting of LA Times, Washington Post, Tampa Tribune or Orange County Register. The bummer of it all, is the fact this forum has become very sophmoric and is no longer informative nor educational. My point is, grow up, move on and, dare I say it, again..."Get the fuck over it already!" Those of you who disagree w/ my statement can move on -I am WAY OVER being sucked into your 'miserable, drama ridden, resentful, hateful, paranoid, little world that you people seem to thrive in. My humble opinion??? You have WAY too much time on your hands and SHOULD be on your GRATEFUL KNEES to whomever you worship, giving thanks that you are ABOVE ground for Christ's sake!!
Really have lost my interst and/or compassion to 'share' w/ most of you anymore. That's the way to KILL a good forum...
My "two cents" - love ya!!
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Good Riddance moron ! You and your post were very boring and will not be missed ! :wave:
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Oh contraire- Robin you will be missed. Forgive the above tweeb for he no not what he hath done.
:wave:
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Yup, many of the posts are sophomoric and all of that, including my own. You're going to take your ball and go home now, is that it? Too bad; but I don't know why. At least half the postings here are very pro-Seed. Some very anti. Probably most are struggling with what was good, what was bad. It's a process, and I am really glad to be a part of it. Maybe you will post again, I hope so. Or maybe you want to hang on to your opinions unchallenged. That's OK by me!
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Robin,
It has always been like a breath of fresh air to see what you had to say. I do understand how you feel. It seems that whenever any of us says anything positive about the Seed we are condemmed for it.
I just wanted you to know you were my favorite person on this site to listen to and you will be dearly missed.
You always seemed to say the things I also felt about my life and the Seed.
I wish you the very best.
Lots of Love and Peace to you......
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jesus guys..and vise versa. That is what the forum is all about.
Someone posts somehting positive and someone with a different experience counters.
Someone post something negative and a seed supporter says bullshit.
In the end, hopefully the truth finds its way.
Those that wanna hold hands and sing zipetdoodah have come to the wrong place, as have those that want a one sided 30 year old pity party.
personally, I think you people are weird.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Ditto. I always liked reading Robin's posts. What a breath of fresh air. I have always been non-confrontational pre/post Seed, which is why I generally don't post here. But Robin you will be missed by people like me, who feel much the same way you do.
I will miss you too.
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ROBIN, ROBIN, ROBIN, ROBIN, ROBIN
WE WANT ROBIN!!!!!!!!!!!! ::kma:: ::kma:: ::kma:: ::kma:: ::kma::
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Talk about cussin' the farmer w/ your mouth full. Why don't you guys just set up your own forum where you can delete, with impunity, anything that challenges your opinions?
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.
--Anonymous
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::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
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I imagine spittle covered screens from people like Ginger and Stripe with the venom, hatred and animosity that is spewed toward one and all. I'm thinking they need to lighten up a bit. Everything in life is not coercive or subversive and not everyone has agenda. And Greg about the time I think you're okay, you veer off on a tangent and denigrate the rest of us for not thinking or feeling like you. It was 30+ years ago for god's sake, and each of us has moved on in our lives, far past what happened when we were teenagers, or at least we should have by now. The time spent at the Seed does not represent the sum total of who we are as adults. And for anyone who hasn't gotten beyond it, I'm pretty positive they would have been a mess in their adult lives anyways, even if they hadn't been there. There are always those people who have to blame someone and something for every real or imagined wrong in the lives. As for those of us who don't have any "real" problems with what happened to us during our time at the Seed, you accuse us of having our heads up our asses and living in a fantasy land. I neither have my head up my ass nor live in a fantasy land. My friends, co-workers and bosses who don't know a thing about the Seed, think I'm one of the most compassionate, grounded, common sense individuals they've ever met. I raised good kids who are happy and productive members of society, I have good friends and I am happy with my life. Not too shabby in the grand scheme of things. So I go blissfully on with my life, living it one day at a time, dealing with what comes my way and having no regrets or remorse.
Does that make me weird?
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On 2005-08-13 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
Does that make me weird?
If so, we're all pretty weird. You seem to imply that anyone who disagrees with you must be a mess. You don't think that's a bit offensive?Well, I dissagree with you and am not a mess.
I'm well over what happened to my family 20 - 30 years ago. I'll get over the TC method employed by coercion and, often, at public expense when that's no longer happening. Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
-- ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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It is so obvious you cannot have a discourse with someone who disagrees with you without attacking. I made no implication of anything, just my own feelings and observations. See I am entitled to those as well. In my own day to day life I steer very clear of people like you and with your continued drama over every little thing and not being able to let go. People like you wear me out. Sometimes, life and what happens is nothing more, nothing less, it just is what it is.
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Stripe here, Anon, replying to you.
I have let you and every one else know exactly who I am. I am not ashamed of any decision or choice I have ever made - except one: voluntarily staying at the seed after being graduated, spouting dogma and supporting the what I see as the oppression of other innocents. If being called venomnous is the only consequence I have for that, I'll gladly let you slap me with snakes and smear the venom on myself.
I am truly glad that you have raised your children well and that they have grown up safe. I am also glad that folks think you are compassionate and kind and all the other things you say about your self. My friends, my family, my professional associates, etc., all say those same things about me, too. I too have raised an incredibly compassionate, intelligent, truly wonderful young man of whom I am so proud it makes my heart burst. We are not that different, are we?
I don't know you so I can't really think any thing about you. But I do know this - you and I have never ever walked in each other's shoes. Maybe you needed to live your life by the addiction code of the seed. I didn't. I chose not to live by a code that was imposed from the outside and proved to be purley USELESS to me.
The crime of the seed, its supporters, sleeping staff members, sleeping addict proponents, the lifelong seedlings and the program progeny is that the place and participants refuse to allow free thought or action. They believed that any person not involved and towing the company line - any non-seeder, was or is an inherenltly bad person. Kind of like what you think about me. How could that be? How could every one in the world be bad except the people in the warehouse?
That's no differet than the experience I had at the Baptist school where I was told by the preacher/teacher that every religion in the world was wrong but the Baptists - there was only one true religion. "Even the people who never heard the word of God and had their own religions?" I asked. Yep, going to hell. hmmmm. There's a conflict here.
I think the rehab industry is, to use a term I despise to this day, a "fullofshit" industry. But worse than being "fullofshit," it's an industry. And you and I and every other seed graduate or non-graduate, we are products of the industry, like it or not. We were imprinted with a programmed thought pattern - a set of specific regs to follow - a paradigm under which to operate. (you say a goodseed/ I say a bad seed). But either way, we both were imprinted with that knowledge and sent out in the world to use it for the betterment of the seed society. And what does not fit into the paradigm is totally rejected - from sibligs to parents, to friends, to jobs, to schools, to lovers, husbands and wives. Just your basic experiment in social engineering. Only no one asked us if we wanted to be part of it. No one.
I don't know you so I don;t know whether you have taken any significant steps or had any significant experiences to date that have challenged your own belief about your personal experience at the seed. You have accepted it as just another part of your life - "it is what it is," to quote you.
Being put in theseed was NOT a normal experience. Volunatrily going into theseed was not, I repeat, not a normal experience either. I don't think we should so easily dismiss the experience as "it is what it is".
The brain hurts and BIG problems arise when lifelong conformance is challenged. Ask Martin Luther King - well ya can't, but look at history. When any person or group challenges the mindset, there's hell to pay.*
It's not confortable for me now and it has caused and still causes some pretty clear dividing lines in my life. How do you determine that I have not "gotten over it" ? You have as much as decided my adult life was probably uncontrolled and messy without the benefit of EVER having personally known me. That is a pretty big assumption for you to make about any person, let alone someone you do not know. Life is not about control and neatness. Life is, in fact, quite messy, it's what happens when we are trying to control everything.
That folks continue to buy into the conformity and accuse me of spouting venom, hatred and spittle- that you dislike what I have to say so much tells me it's not a challenge you care to confront at this time and that's okay. Please, don't just blanketly assume in such a "pat answer" fashion that I'm not over it - that I am a fuck-up because I don't tow the company line or lay back and just accept what happend to me as okay.
Instead of just accepting it as "it is what it is" I think my experience requires me to understand what happened and how it happend so that I can work now to never let something like that happen to me or any one else I love.
I'll continue to post here and take the shots, cheap or deserved. I'll consider your points and concede when I agree or my opinion has been changed. But I truly do believe that these programs are inherently dangerous for all humanity. Then and now.
* Reference the song: Holiday in Cambodia by the Dead Kennedys, I believe, circa 1982?. Cambodia under Pol Pot - the terrible results of a despot's wicked desire to rid the society of all intelligensia and non-conformists. I don't think I need an extreme make over or an extreme re-education camp. Well, I'd take the extreme make-over if it were free... :razz: [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-08-13 19:35 ]
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On 2005-08-13 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
There are always those people who have to blame someone and something for every real or imagined wrong in the lives...I neither have my head up my ass nor live in a fantasy land...I have good friends and I am happy with my life...So I go blissfully on with my life, living it one day at a time, dealing with what comes my way and having no regrets or remorse.
Does that make me weird?"
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Of course you're weird! You have been posting on the wrong site, my friend...ANYWAY, all kidding aside, I just want to thank all of you special peeps for your kind words to me and know we'll be keeping in touch beyond this downer of a website...Peace, my friends!
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Your not weierd, your great. Are you LB?
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On 2005-08-14 03:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-13 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
There are always those people who have to blame someone and something for every real or imagined wrong in the lives...I neither have my head up my ass nor live in a fantasy land...I have good friends and I am happy with my life...So I go blissfully on with my life, living it one day at a time, dealing with what comes my way and having no regrets or remorse.
Does that make me weird?"
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Of course you're weird! You have been posting on the wrong site, my friend...ANYWAY, all kidding aside, I just want to thank all of you special peeps for your kind words to me and know we'll be keeping in touch beyond this downer of a website...Peace, my friends!"
Are you sure you always use your handle. It sure looks familiar, special "peeps" and all. Maybe not ALWAYS?
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On 2005-08-13 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I imagine spittle covered screens from people like Ginger and Stripe with the venom, hatred and animosity that is spewed toward one and all. I'm thinking they need to lighten up a bit. Everything in life is not coercive or subversive and not everyone has agenda. And Greg about the time I think you're okay, you veer off on a tangent and denigrate the rest of us for not thinking or feeling like you. It was 30+ years ago for god's sake, and each of us has moved on in our lives, far past what happened when we were teenagers, or at least we should have by now. The time spent at the Seed does not represent the sum total of who we are as adults. And for anyone who hasn't gotten beyond it, I'm pretty positive they would have been a mess in their adult lives anyways, even if they hadn't been there. There are always those people who have to blame someone and something for every real or imagined wrong in the lives. As for those of us who don't have any "real" problems with what happened to us during our time at the Seed, you accuse us of having our heads up our asses and living in a fantasy land. I neither have my head up my ass nor live in a fantasy land. My friends, co-workers and bosses who don't know a thing about the Seed, think I'm one of the most compassionate, grounded, common sense individuals they've ever met. I raised good kids who are happy and productive members of society, I have good friends and I am happy with my life. Not too shabby in the grand scheme of things. So I go blissfully on with my life, living it one day at a time, dealing with what comes my way and having no regrets or remorse.
Does that make me weird?"
"And Greg about the time I think you're okay, you veer off on a tangent and denigrate the rest of us for not thinking or feeling like you. "
Not only do I not think you should feel or think like me, I do not want it. I only want everyone to be able to post their thoughts and experiences without all this personal projection going on.
An anon some posts back summed up how I feel. He said about me that he didnt experience the seed the way I did and would not attempt to denigrate my experience.
Bravo.
I dont intend on denigrating anyones experience. that I point out at times that the seed was a cult, or that bad things happened there, in no way denigrates that someone thinks they took something positive away from the experience. For example, that JU is no longer a junkie. he attributes that to the seed. wonderfull result. I cant and shouldnt try to take that from him. Should he now dismiss everyone who says they had a bad experience?
I also am not happy with some of the attacks going on around here, on all sides of the issue. those responsible should ask themselves why they feel the need to try to stop the voices of other people. Making rational counterpoints is much more productive.
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Thank you Greg. We'll never see eye to eye on our seed experiences and that's okay. I am neither a leader nor a follower. I pretty much do my own thing and that's one of the things I took from the seed. I don't much care what others think of me and how I live my life, cause it's my life. Because my mind works pretty simply what I took from the seed, like any religious dogma, was to try and life a good life, treat other people and myself with respect, try to be compassionate and understanding, not judge a book by its cover and mostly to just let people live their lives and for the most part while I'm a fallible human, and don't always succeed, and I've made plenty of mistakes in my life, it's an easy way to live.
As for Stripe, because of your legal training, I will never attempt to go toe to toe with you. My brain wasn't trained to attack and argue. I know this because I've spent my entire adult life surround professionally by attorneys. I have faced my fair share of life's adversities, I didn't get to be 46 and raise kids without having faced life and all its pleasantries and unpleasantries. Let's see, there's births, deaths, alcoholism at home and and work, aging parents, and don't forget raising teenagers and all the challenges they offer. I took what I needed and moved on. My seed experience wasn't yours and yours wasn't mine. It was 9 months out of my life when I was 15 and thus I've moved way beyond that point in time and just try to live my life and take what comes my way and deal with it as effectively as I can, for a simple human being.
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On 2005-08-15 05:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
I am neither a leader nor a follower. I pretty much do my own thing and that's one of the things I took from the seed. I don't much care what others think of me and how I live my life, cause it's my life.
Ok, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just sort of at a loss to understand how you took that particular mind-set away from the Seed. In my experience, doing one's own thing w/o checking it out w/ staff first was a fast ride to front row. I used to fear running into anyone affiliated w/ the Seed while I was growing up. What if I seemed off in a daydream? What if my jeans were a little too tattered? What if my eyes were red from swimming? What if I were listening to "druggie" music or something? What if someone busted me crying or noticed how depressed I often was? I was terrified of being reported for some sort of imaginary manifestation of druggiedome.
In my experience, thinking for yourself was just verbotten. I had to double think everything; to prepare a Seed Approved response and, if I wanted anything else, a very secret, private take on it. And respect for others? Yeah, right! About like the "respect" that my favorite anon troll or my brother give me when I try to engage them in discussion about the TC method.
Maybe it was a whole lot different for you. Maybe it was such a large group at the time and you were able to get in and out w/ little trouble. I suppose it could be compared to Singapore. It's a beautiful place to visit. So safe and clean and honest. But if you had to grow up there, in fear of imprisonment for forgetting to flush a toilet or of caning for some minor infraction, you might view it differently.
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
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On 2005-08-13 18:58:00, Stripe wrote:
I think the rehab industry is, to use a term I despise to this day, a "fullofshit" industry. But worse than being "fullofshit," it's an industry. And you and I and every other seed graduate or non-graduate, we are products of the industry, like it or not. We were imprinted with a programmed thought pattern - a set of specific regs to follow - a paradigm under which to operate. (you say a goodseed/ I say a bad seed). But either way, we both were imprinted with that knowledge and sent out in the world to use it for the betterment of the seed society. And what does not fit into the paradigm is totally rejected - from sibligs to parents, to friends, to jobs, to schools, to lovers, husbands and wives. Just your basic experiment in social engineering. Only no one asked us if we wanted to be part of it. No one.
See? That's what I'm talkin' about. When I was a little kid growing up in Pompano, we had a defacto neighborhood watch program. We used to call them the Iggys because they were old and stooped and Mrs. Iggy had this Al Sharpton thing going up top. There were no secrets in Lyons Park, except the open kind (like Mr. Folks was gay and the firemen are not generally faithful to their wives) But the day in the life of a kid growing up in that community was pretty idylic compared to what we've got going there now.
Then, if a kid cut class or damaged a neighbor's property or stole candy frm 7-11, our dad found out and dealt with it. Now? The school resource officer will hunt them down, place them under arrest and transport them down to the Juvenile Intervention Facility (JIF) for assessment and intervention. And, we're told, that good citizens join the neighborhood vigilante (oops! neighborhood watch) program and report directly to law enforcement. They even have seperate toll free hotlines for truancy and other suspicious activity.
Have you checked into Peer Counseling in the schools? My oldest daughter was assigned that program in 9th grade. It stuck in my craw, it did. I just wasn't comfortable w/ the idea of 14yo kids as the first line intervention for the personal issues of other 14yo kids and a lot of other aspects of the program.
So, for years, I thought I was just paranoid. I found out a couple of years later that Peer Counseling, as implimented in Broward County Schools, was developed and marketed by none other than Bill Oliver, former Straight, Fairfax exutive staff. Same w/ DARE. Creeped me out for a hundred reasons. Later, I found that it's founder, Daryle Gates, LAPD chief, had been involved in trying to establish a Seed and then a Straight in So. Cali and that Betty Sembler is on the boa of Dare America and a whole slew of other murky, government funded drug nazi organizations.
So it's not just my imagination. And yes, I remain angry about it. I'm angered that, after all I went through and all I gave up in the course of escaping that cult that they've manuevered very successfully to gain access to my kids through compulsory schooling. I'm pissed as hell that I have to pay for it, too!
But you can't question these things w/o getting a very Seedling-like response from those involved. You just got and try discussing with the local school resource officer the wisdom of turning 10yos into CIs w/o compensation, informed consent or any of the protections normally afforded to undercover officers. It's a taboo subject. Our children are conscripted. Anyone who questions any aspect of it is smeared and accused of being the worst kind of person.
The cultural hunger for a substance that lets you hold affordable conversations with God, watch walls melt, breathe colors, and explore your psyche remains unsated.
--Ryan Grim for Slate, April 1, 2004
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Actually it was quite small in St. Pete the year before it closed and there was no getting lost in the crowd, there was no crowd.
I remember a rap with Darlene leading it where she talked about taking what we needed from the program and leaving the rest, that we were merely being given the tools to make choices in our adult lives. I remember her talking about the use of alcohol and drinking in our futures. It was neither a negative nor a positive, just about making informed adult decisions. At least that was my take on what she had to say.
Which is why in my opinion my life now is so much more than the 9 months I spent there. It's a part of me, but I am not defined by the time I spent there.
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That's just really hard for me to imagine. However, Marshall brought up Marnie's name recently. That makes me think. I remember her very well and very fondly. She and a gal named Cheryl were on staff together and, it seemed like, close friends. They both were just less strident, more well intended.
Marnie did stand up all the newcomer girls and apologize for a truely horrific round of haircuts. The "stylist" was a dog groomer who had never cut any human's hair except her poor, longsuffering sons'.
Naturally, we in group never got an iota of info about why they poofed out of our reality one day. But I can believe it was because they finally figured out that there just was no mitigating the disaster.
But still, I can't imagine any staffer from either The Seed or Straight standing in front of group discussing future drug and alcohol use in terms other than harsh condemnation. I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create.
--Vincent Van Gogh, Dutch painter
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Hard to imagine or believe, but true. At the end, St. Pete was a fairly quiet place.
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I wondered for years why the chicks in St. Pete looked like poodles. :grin:
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LOL-it wasn't just at St. Pete! I had really curly, long hair when I was dragged into Ft. Pierce. By the time my old-comer was done with the scissors, you could have called me Fifi or Buckwheat.
I remember sitting on the front row at the next open meeting and seeing the horrified look on the face of my parents-that is a bad haircut. My sister, of course, was snickering.
Someone tell me again why chicks had to get their hair cut?
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The stated purpose as I recall was to remove the druggie image associated with long hair, short hair, curly hair, afro hair, shag hair cuts, whatever. If you had a hair cut, it had to be changed.
The effect, REGARLDESS of INTENTION, because we all know and accept that the seed was only based on good intentions.... was to remove and alter self-image and self-identity. HIHO and welcome to the cult.
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The Report of the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
Commissioned by President Richard M. Nixon, March, 1972 [summarily discarded like last years campaign promises, April 1972]
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lib ... c/mis2.htm (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/mis2.htm)
SYMBOLISM
The symbolic aspects of marihuana are the, most intangible of the items to which the Commission must address itself, and yet they may be at the heart of the marihuana problem. Use of marihuana was, and still is, age-specific. It was youth-related at a time in American history when the adult society was alarmed by the implications of the youth " movement": defiance of the established order, the adoption of new life styles, the emergence of "street people," campus unrest, drug use, communal living, protest politics, and even political radicalism. In an age characterized by the so-called generation gap, marihuana symbolizes the cultural divide.
For youth, marihuana became a convenient symbol of disaffection with traditional society, an allure which supplemented its recreational attraction. Smoking marihuana may have appealed to large numbers of youth who opposed certain policies or trends, but who maintained faith in the American system as a whole. In ;a time when symbolic speech is often preferred to the literal form, marihuana was a convenient instrument of mini-protest. It was also an agent of group solidarity, as the widely-publicized rock concerts so well illustrate.
For the adult society, the decade of the sixties was a distressing time. The net effect of racial unrest, campus disruption, political assassination, economic woes and an unpopular war was widespread uneasiness. Attending a general fear that the nation was witnessing its own disintegration was a desire to shore up our institutions and hold the line. That line was easy to define where drugs, particularly marihuana, were concerned.
Use of drugs, including marihuana, is against the law. For many, marihuana symbolized disorder in a society frustrated by increasing lawlessness. Insistence on application of the law tended also to harden views, thereby escalating still further the use of marihuana as a symbolic issue.
The social conflicts underlying the drug's symbolic status have dissipated somewhat in the past few years; and in some ways, the Commission has similarly noted a partial deflation of the marihuana problem and of the emotionalism surrounding it. We are hopeful that our attempt to clarify the scientific and normative dimensions of marihuana use will further deemphasize, the problem orientation and facilitate rational decision-making.
It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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The effect, REGARLDESS of INTENTION, because we all know and accept that the seed was only based on good intentions.... was to remove and alter self-image and self-identity.
EXACTLY!! I had this "slutty shag" which NEEDED major altering. It was the first step in altering the f****d up self-image I was putting out to everyone...I was "just too cool" ya know? It worked, and I considered it a good thing. My mom happened to like the change...as did I.
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Good intentions. I suppose it depends on how you define the term. Certainly, they all thought it seemed like a good idea at the time. But don't you think it's just a tad evil to intentionally convince little girls that having (or wanting) the fad haircut somehow made them morally flawed? Just for example. There are many examples.
At the bottom of it, the Program is all about squashing dissent and forcing conformity. Never mind whether the haircut or the friends or the music or any other detail were actually worthwhile or not. It made mom nervous, and so young one, as much as it pains me, I must squash your free spirit and independent mind and install a nice, simple, clean new set that won't vex your mother.
I remember how that all seemed perfectly fittin and proper at the time. But looking back, what kind of monsters were we to even think of it?Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
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On 2005-08-15 05:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
As for Stripe, because of your legal training, I will never attempt to go toe to toe with you. My brain wasn't trained to attack and argue. I know this because I've spent my entire adult life surround professionally by attorneys. I have faced my fair share of life's adversities, I didn't get to be 46 and raise kids without having faced life and all its pleasantries and unpleasantries. Let's see, there's births, deaths, alcoholism at home and and work, aging parents, and don't forget raising teenagers and all the challenges they offer. I took what I needed and moved on. My seed experience wasn't yours and yours wasn't mine. It was 9 months out of my life when I was 15 and thus I've moved way beyond that point in time and just try to live my life and take what comes my way and deal with it as effectively as I can, for a simple human being.
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It's hard to know one anon from another. As I see it, there is safety in anonymous numbers and when I reply to the wrong anon, I'm the ass.
Assuming you are the anon my reply was directed to, I thought I had made a fairly accurate list of our similarites, things we should BOTH be proud of, some common ground on which to support each other - regardless of WHAT our opinions happen to be. Apparently someone failed in this exchange: me, you, or both of us. It really doesn't matter.
Instead, it's back to what I perceive as the usual seedling set up: "my brain wasn't trained to attack and argue". Don't be so sure Anon, that was a pretty sly cut right there. It's just a job, ya know.
I am destined be a permanent resident of the "argue & attack" camp, regardless of my output, and that's okay. We can agree to disagree. You guys can continue to snooze on the bigger issues, but I gotta go do some thing real with what I have learned here. I really thought I found some common ground in which to explore bigger ideas, but apparently I was wrong, I guess, because I don't think like you. Welcome to the real world, right?
This forum existed long before I found it and it will exist and prosper long after today, bringing resolution and closure to those who want it and need it. Simply telling someone to get over it or deriding them because they are not over it is just not helpful. That's about the only statement I see from seed supporters - get over it. ok.
And with this, I too, quit. It's just not worth my time beating the dead horse formerly known as the seed. It's way too mushy and stinky anyway... :grin:
Peace out.
Stripe
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So you mean you are just going to jump on your camel and ride off into the sunset? :rofl:
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Stripe, don't go...
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Stripe,
Are you sure this isn't a "prove you love me game" ::blushing::
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And with this, I too, quit. It's just not worth my time beating the dead horse formerly known as the seed. It's way too mushy and stinky anyway...
Come on... your mustache will filter out some of the stench...
you've got the mustache now just grow the set of
----s :grin:
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::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce:: ::bigsmilebounce::
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Ya' know, you're a real ::kma:: ::kma:: ::kma::
(ass * 3)They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved.
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
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I guess it takes one to know one :wave:
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And you have cooties, so there! :razz:
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect
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Stripe, you can and go as you see fit, as benifits you.
As I told Robin (and good example because of the variety of opinions between the two), I appreciate your particpation here and understand why you wouldn't or would want to post.
Keep in touch, and come back whenever you see fit.
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On 2005-08-20 20:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The effect, REGARLDESS of INTENTION, because we all know and accept that the seed was only based on good intentions.... was to remove and alter self-image and self-identity.
EXACTLY!! I had this "slutty shag" which NEEDED major altering. It was the first step in altering the f****d up self-image I was putting out to everyone...I was "just too cool" ya know? It worked, and I considered it a good thing. My mom happened to like the change...as did I."
Maybe you should have examined why you associated a particular haircut (shag =slutty) with your self-image to begin with. Isn't it just as egotistical and silly to identify your self-image with some arbitrary seed or straight haircut? If a guy with short hair came into the program how many times did staff insist that he grow his hair long in order to change his self-image? Or...why not insist that everyone, male and female simply shave their head entirely? This seems like it would be the ulitmate in puncturing ego images associated with hair styles...unless you were a skinhead.
Exchanging one group-sanctioned hairstyle for another equally arbitrary group-sanctioned hairstyle seems silly in retrospect. Did anyone ever get stood up and reprimanded for holding onto straight images? No. Rather than exchanging images maybe we should have inquired a little deeper into the whole question of why we form self-images at all. You probably considered your old style / image 'cool' because that's what your old peergroup or culture told you. You likely considered your new haircut 'a good thing' & decided your shag 'needed altering' for exactly the same reasons...only it was the new peergroup of fellow seedlings, conforming to the ideas of what Art and staff regarded as good or straight. I felt the strong push to conformity from my own peergroup or druggie culture that we were constantly reminded of at the seed. But this paled in comparison to the intense pressure that I felt to conform to the seed peer group. In fact, staff counted on this being true...otherwise your new image / conditioning would not 'take', or displace your old conditioning. Or in John's parlance, you wouldn't 'get it'. Getting it was easy in comparison to the effort and long years of critical self-examination that it took to get rid of 'it'.
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If I haven't already thanked you personally Stripe, I do so now. Your input has been valuable. I appreciate all your efforts in dead-horse beating. I bid you peace. Take care. :nworthy: :wave:
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On 2005-08-24 20:10:00, marshall wrote:
"
You probably considered your old style / image 'cool' because that's what your old peergroup or culture told you. You likely considered your new haircut 'a good thing' & decided your shag 'needed altering' for exactly the same reasons..."
Well, duh... :grin:
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::boohoo::
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The funny thing is, in around `73 or `74, the Seed Chick haircut was a shag. My sister and I both got them. I remember it well. I was in 3rd grade.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
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On 2005-08-24 20:39:00, Robin Martin wrote:
"
On 2005-08-24 20:10:00, marshall wrote:
You probably considered your old style / image 'cool' because that's what your old peergroup or culture told you. You likely considered your new haircut 'a good thing' & decided your shag 'needed altering' for exactly the same reasons..."
Well, duh... :grin:
"
Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying Robin. (or maybe not..it's late here & I'm sleepy) If the choice is between being a junkie and being a moonie or rajneeshie I'd take the latter two anyday. In my own case, being ordered into the seed was a much better alternative than spending 5 years in a georgia prison. It's ironic, but I'm actually one of those that would have unquestionably 'ended up' in prison if not for the seed or some such program as an alternative. That was my choice...5 years of prison or seed. The seed was definitely the best choice or lesser of two evils. Lots of folks have gotten straight (read' off dope or chronic alcohol abuse) via scientology and their affiliated groups. I'm sure the old synannon worked for some too. There were likely people that might have been junkies if not for programs like Straight too. I just don't think that justifies their existence or methods...or the countless others that suffer from ongoing problems due at least in part to a program / cult of that type. I just lump the Seed in with the others. Some were better than others in various ways just as some 'eras' of the seed were better than others in some ways. No one should be thought-reformed / behaviour modified against their will though...ever. Maybe some victims of the inquisition went on to become saints, I don't know...but that in no way justifies the existence of that either.
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On 2005-08-24 20:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"The funny thing is, in around `73 or `74, the Seed Chick haircut was a shag. My sister and I both got them. I remember it well. I was in 3rd grade. If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
"
I'm not surprised to hear that. Arbitrary. I was one of those early geeks that tried to dress like Art. Light colored pastel shirt and pants to match, white belt. No-one questioned that sort of group-think though. BTW, can you reformat that last reply to Robin? I just hit the quote button and it posted whacky. Thanks.
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OK, maybe Cliff bought into the white belt and white shoes thing. Sorry not many did. I always liked a black shirt and did catch a little hell about it, but I still wore it anyway. I never owned any white shoes (before or after labor day)
The whole point was to dress brighter and feel better about your self. It was a little tough to where a yellow or red or light blue shirt & act and feel down & out. Lets face it once you got out of the grateful dead tshirt & dirty scragley jeans it makes a difference in your attitude. It makes it alot harder to feel like a down and out loser. SOOOO... Have a nice day everyone & tell it to all the toll booth operaters also :razz: :razz:
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Hey I didn't mean to dis Cliff. he's a very nice guy. He just never had an eye for clothes although since hes been married his wife has taken good care of him. :grin:
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WTaylor read your private messages again.
Thanks.
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I must admit I came in in '72 with long blonde hair parted down the middle. (surfer style) & decided on my 13th day to get a hair cut to insure going home the next day. It didn't happen for another couple of weeks. I did ask for a shag, thinking I could still walk out with a cool look. It didn't happen. I was in zombie mode for a day or two but it did make me start to change for the better :grin:
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Hey TK.
Check your private messages.
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Hey Old Guy (WTaylor)
check your private messages again
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Yah know, if you put a legit email addy in your profile, you'll get notification of PMs.
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin
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Well y'all remember my little bush in my back yard when everybody gets through wrecking their brains. There's plenty of "brain salad surgery" out here for the vampires.
A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.
--Pentagon advisor, Richard Perle, September 22, 2003
Perfect example of one vampire they let out of the asylum too soon.
_________________
"Mine Eyes have seen the Glory of The Coming Of The Lord"[ This Message was edited by: The Root Of Jesse on 2005-08-25 09:35 ]
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Check your private messages again.
W
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Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying Robin. (or maybe not..it's late here & I'm sleepy) If the choice is between being a junkie and being a moonie or rajneeshie I'd take the latter two anyday. In my own case, being ordered into the seed was a much better alternative than spending 5 years in a georgia prison. It's ironic, but I'm actually one of those that would have unquestionably 'ended up' in prison if not for the seed or some such program as an alternative.
Thank you Marshall - you DO understand afterall! I can 'relate' w/ you in knowing UNQUESTIONABLY I would have ended up deadinsaneorinjail. I was a tough little gal. When I volunteered to put myself into the Seed, I was soooo miserable, I remember calling my mom to say "if I don't get straight, I'm going to commit suicide..." That was the FIRST time those words crossed my lips. Well, for me, it was all good. I'm still above ground and grateful for it! In no way do I minimize the experiences of others that were FORCED in for smoking a couple of joints, or having a couple of beers or taking a couple of trips. That's obscene! I understand parents jumping on the bandwagon; wouldn't you, if you were scared and concerned for your children?? I would. Neither do I blame FAMILY DISFUNCTION from time spent at the Seed. Hell - My family was dysfunctional when I went in, STILL dysfunctional today and always will be. How do I handle it? I deal w/ it and move on! Does it hurt at times? OF COURSE IT DOES! The four of us live in different states and WE LIKE it that way! Yeesh, sorry for the rant...sometimes I just start typing and can't stop. I imagine it's like that for a lot of us, huh? I appreciate your comments Marshall,
Robin
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Funny, but I don't remember Cliff wearing those...he must've started after I left. I do remember Robert C. wearing them though. I recall lots of guys doing it. I even have a pic somewhere of me in that get-up. Also had the white shoes.. A black T-shirt huh? You were such a rebel! I have no problem with art or anyone wearing that sort of thing. But it's just personal taste...like some people prefer Rembrandt and others Van Gogh. It isn't a moral or character issue. Same with hair styles.
***********
"The whole point was to dress brighter and feel better about your self. It was a little tough to where a yellow or red or light blue shirt & act and feel down & out. Lets face it once you got out of the grateful dead tshirt & dirty scragley jeans it makes a difference in your attitude."
*************************
There seems to be a big contradiction in that observation. If dressing 'brighter' makes you feel better about yourself then you should never ditch the grateful dead shirts. Have you ever seen these? There's nothing as bright & colorful as those are. I've worn them regularly for nearly 2 decades. imo it wasn't the psychological effect of bright colors, it was what was considered acceptable at the time...same as being 'cool' in the seed. Only certain styles of bright clothes were acceptable. From watching my own and other kids grow to adulthood, I'd say it's primarily getting out of adolescence that makes the biggest difference in your attitude.
We could argue about men's hairstyles at the seed but such a debate between two graying, balding men :skull: & you still seem to have a great sense of humor. If you ever talk to Cliff, tell him I said Hi.
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In no way do I minimize the experiences of others that were FORCED in for smoking a couple of joints, or having a couple of beers or taking a couple of trips. That's obscene!
Of course it is, and think you for getting that Robin!
I would extend that to anyone forced in for any reason.
Now, those of you that volunteered to go in and appreciate your experience, who's to second guess? ..its your life. However, to those that volunteered going in not realizing the dangerous cultic techniques that were to be used on them, and then having to endure the results for years and years...often forgoing normal sexuality, their families, their friends for years or decades...
I think those consent forms that the governemnt was going to force Art to use were a brilliant idea.
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& you still seem to have a great sense of humor.
Lauderdale is gifted or cursed with the same sense of humor I have. That is, people either think your funny or offensive..no middle ground. Also, people also mistake attempts at humor for attacks.
In my progressing age, I have been working on trying to understand how other people take this "trait" of mine and modifying it for the sake of everyone! Especially me.
:grin:
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Marshall,
I'm not saying I dress that way now, nor am I judging someone by the way they dress now either.
Hey I pick out stuff I like. Back then I needed the change, thats all. Everything was to the extreme for a reason, so I would change the way I thought about things. I questioned nothing back then and I needed to do that and it worked for me. Hey I'm so glad you have a nice family,
and your a grandfather, unbelieveable. Also, thanks for the nice things you said.
I havn't seen Cliff in a couple of years, but if I do see him, I'll pass it along.
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"In my progressing age, I have been working on trying to understand how other people take this "trait" of mine and modifying it for the sake of everyone! Especially me."
Sounds like some sound advice.
I'm serious.
:grin:
I'm even progressed in age a few more years than you.
:grin:
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My brother came in before me, then convinced me that I needed to get straight. I thought it would be fun, after my meeting with Scott B., NY, Jewish, hipster-dude. But I was slapped onto the front row, after a meal at burger king a a quick hair cut with my (crying) mom. Then my brother and mom returned from shopping for me for clothes. Staff handed me a brown paper bag. I ended up with: two pairs of corderoy pants, straight leg, one rusty-red, the other bright blue. Also a couple of pastel-colored golf shirts, or whatever you call those things. And some type of 'hard-soled shoes.' I looked like a complete dork anyway you want to look at it. I think it was my brother's revenge for me being a dick to him from time to time.
Scott B. and other male staff members made the Art Barker inspired uniform look cool - dare I use the word. White belt and shoes, socks that matched a pastel golf shirt. Polyester pants. Can you believe it? This was 1979.
AS an oldcomer, I just looked generic all the time. I thought it was wrong to care about my appearance, so as long as I looked like the other guys, that was it. I wore those big stupid horn-rimmed glasses that were popular in the 80s, my hair was cut short.
One thing I may have learned is, never judge a person by their clothes, although you can certainly observe a lot. Just don't judge.
Maybe it was good to take me out of my comfort zone for a while, but I never found a way to be comfortable with who I was at the Seed. It as only after I left that I was free to define myself. [ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-26 13:55 ]
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On 2005-08-26 13:54:00, cleveland wrote:
...It as only after I left that I was free to define myself.
EXACTLY! - which was then I started to "grow" and re-define who I was borne to be... :nworthy:
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Sure thing ter. I understand. BTW, my oldest daugther is due to have my 4th grandchild this week. Coincidentally, she's named him after me and it looks like he may be born close to if not on my birthday (sept. 3). I am very lucky. All of them live literally a stone's throw from my house and I get to spend lots of time with them. One good thing about grandkids is that it gives me a good excuse to get down on the floor and play and be a child again. "Well, it's just for the kids, u know." :grin:
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Robin, between my insomnia and your being on the west coast, seems we're often on at the same time. We talk alot here about the fact / mystery that so many of us came away from the seed with differing perspectives and experiences even though we went through the same program...sometimes at the same time. For some, it was overwhelmingly positve, for others negative. Reading your earlier post I think one big aspect of it is related to that one word 'FORCED'.
You desperately signed yourself into the program while I was directed to go or suffer prison. There are lots of examples and analogies that come to mind. Pardon the crudity, but two different women can have sex with the same man. One woman might be filled with remorse, disgust and resentment about the experience. The other might find the same act a warm, positive, loving encounter. How could this be possible? One was the man's wife while the other was forcibly raped by him. A person such as Mother Teresa might voluntarilly choose a life of poverty living on the streets of India and find this an uplifting, positive experience. Yet if most of us were uprooted against our will from the comforts of home and family and woke-up to a pauper's life in Calcutta we would be devasted and permanently scarred by the experience. I think those of us who were forced into the seed either by parents or by the courts might be more likely to find the experience something akin to psychological rape.
I wasn't an alcoholic or junkie at 17. The only time I ever stole anything at all was a piece of glassware from the school lab to make a waterpipe. Before I was sent to the Seed, I had already become disillusioned with much of the drug scene and hypocrisy that I observed. I was so sick of smoking pot that on many occassons I would buy an ounce, smoke a few joints and throw the rest away. Aside from all of that I basically liked much about myself. I wasn't nearly the evil person the seed insisted on forcing us to acknowledge. My attitude was probably no worse than (and better than many) other teens. To relate and gain approval on the program, I often had to pretend or exagerate my faults. I think this was probably true for most of us. I have no reason to distort or lie about this 30 years later, it's simply the honest truth as opposed to the seed truth.
The Seed proceeded to tear not only much of what I considered negative away from my personality, but also alot of what I had no desire to change. It didn't just supplant the attitudes and beliefs that I'd absorbed via peer pressure, it attempted to replace or alter aspects of my personality that I'd gotten from my own parents too. I did not want to be the type of person the seed seemed determined to make me. By this, I don't mean that I didn't want to be an honest, loving person. I felt that I was ceasing to be me at all and was starting to become what others (the seed) wanted me to be. Not only looking and acting a certain way, but in my thinking itself. During my 4th or 5th month on the program I started to actually feel that I'd been brainwashed to an extent. This was not a pleasant discovery. I saw a website the other day that asked; 'If you had been brainwashed, how would you know it?' and the answer; 'You wouldn't.' That was essentially the fear that took shape at that time. I tried to figure out some way that I could complete the program (I had no choice other than prison) without totally succumbing to what I felt happening to me. The eventual solution was to fragment my personality inwardly to try to preserve some kernel of 'me' while presenting the group and staff with the persona that they expected / created. I have little doubt that if I had not done this and remained blissfully ignorant of what was happening to me I would have been far happier or at least less conflicted while on my program. A good, conforming, smiling seedling. This created such inner conflict that I all but stopped relating in group until I graduated. That's why there was such relief at graduation. The charade ended. Unfortunately, I found that I had still lost much of myself. I was suspended between two worlds and nearly alone. I had no desire to return to my former lifestyle nor any desire to stay involved with the seed.
I've tried to separate the wheat from the chaff, or as you say; take the best and forget the rest. There were many useful and good things I learned at the seed. As antigen has pointed out, none of these 'tools' were unique to the seed program. I'll list a few of the things I've found useful and positive;
discovering the relationship between ego and insecurity. The utter uselessness of self-pity. The discovery that various attitudes and states of mind weren't simply given...that I had control over & was responsible for my own thoughts and attitudes. The benefit of what we called 'going through insecurities' rather than escaping from them. The discovery that much of what I thought was myself was simply a series of images..not just projected to others but to myself. The ultimate benefit of facing myself (being honest) even when this was painful in the short-term. Truly attempting to be indifferent to what others thought of me. If I wanted to be silly or seemingly childish or just different..I increasingly forced myself to do this despite my insecurities. (a positive effect of the hokey pokey maybe?) The direct relationship between being honest with myself and increasing awareness of other's mindsets and feelings...which, in-turn resulted in greater empathy. Not comparing myself to others. The power of conditioning Our seemingly endless ability to justify and avoid.
I could go on, but you get the picture. Pursuing many of these teachings consistently did eventually lead me to apply them back to their source (for me)...the seed...uncovering the various 'straight' images, the seed conditioning, etc. as well as the various cultic aspects of the program.
It's sort of like encountering the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount via being forced into Jim Jones' People's Temple or hearing the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism via being forced into Aum Shinriko. The fact that these teachings were presented by an organization that attempted to implant them by forceful, will-breaking, thought-reform and conditioning & controlled by a guy with a messianic complex does not negate their truth or usefulness. John U. said he broke with the Seed because he felt his ultimate loyalty lay with the Seed itself rather than Art. My rejection / criticism of the Seed was / is because I felt that my ultimate loyalty lay with the teachings themselves ( those that I chose to embrace) rather than either Art or an organization.
I've blabbed alot lately, so I'm gonna lurk for awhile rather than subject everyone to so much of my blather. I'm not leaving or anything, just taking a break. I hope you at least see that I don't view the seed as entirely negative. Nor, for that matter do I view the hippy culture idealism as entirely negative. I've tried to salvage all the good that I can from any source. Please understand that any criticism I have of the program does not mean that I would rather you or anyone be junkies or alcoholics....no more than it means I would have rather spent 5 years in prison. Nor does it extend to the people themselves. I harbor no bad feelings or resentments against anyone there. Art and staff were much like good-intentioned but authoritarian parents with lots of blind-spots themselves trying to do what they thought was best for their kids. As a father, I have made enough of those sorts of mistakes over the years to forgive them in others. Take care.
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"In no way do I minimize the experiences of others that were FORCED in for smoking a couple of joints, or having a couple of beers or taking a couple of trips. That's obscene!
Robin"
Finally, finally, thankyoujesus, YOU get it. Everyone here knows it saved your life - we have known that since day one. What has been missing and has been the basis of most of the posts in opposition to The Seed tactics was any proof of any supporter's understanding that this REALLY DID OCCUR. FINALLY. Thank God.
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On 2005-08-27 00:06:00, marshall wrote:
It's sort of like encountering the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount via being forced into Jim Jones' People's Temple or hearing the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism via being forced into Aum Shinriko. The fact that these teachings were presented by an organization that attempted to implant them by forceful, will-breaking, thought-reform and conditioning & controlled by a guy with a messianic complex does not negate their truth or usefulness. John U. said he broke with the Seed because he felt his ultimate loyalty lay with the Seed itself rather than Art. My rejection / criticism of the Seed was / is because I felt that my ultimate loyalty lay with the teachings themselves ( those that I chose to embrace) rather than either Art or an organization.
Exactly that! I started attending open meetings around the time I started kindergarten. Plenty of good ideas spoken and/or painted on the walls. I learned a lot of Seed dogma very early. But I never really saw any of that demonstrated.
Do the right things and the right things will happen. And so I did; I worked hard at school and odd jobs, ate right, got plenty of excercise and, lo and behold, I had good prospects for either work or continuing education and honest to god respect from good people. Oh, and a hot bod. But not from my mom or other Seedlings. Only from my dad, neighbors, teachers and some of the most decent, compassionate kids in school. In Seed Land, it was all about the smoking gun. I could have been a total self serving bitch, so long as I never tasted alcohol or pot or got caught flirting and, of course, if I took care to direct my hostility to "druggies" they would have been A-OK with that.
The serenity prayer. Very useful little aphorism, that! Again, never saw it practiced at all. The Seed was all about mucking around trying to change things they had no business messing with, neglecting those things we all should attend to and being entirely sanctimonious and clueless about the difference.
Honesty, the first and most impotent rule. I started saying that (in my head, NEVER out loud!) as soon as I ran accross the definition of impotence. Oh, the irony! When my mom got hooked on Seed, all of our friends quit coming around and all of my siblings left home or the state and the earliest practical opportunity. It was easier to keep up the pretense w/ a little distance, ya' know?
The really funny thing is that all that good dogma that I learned at the Seed (cause that's where I'd been planted) I did see demonstrated elsewhere. And it made a huge impression on me; favorable to the dogma, extremely hostile to the hypocrites who talked it but could never walk it.
Oh, and you never "blab", Marshall. I don't think I've ever come away from reading one of your posts thinking "well, that was a waste." Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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..."Finally, finally, thankyoujesus, YOU get it. Everyone here knows it saved your life - we have known that since day one. What has been missing and has been the basis of most of the posts in opposition to The Seed tactics was any proof of any supporter's understanding that this REALLY DID OCCUR. FINALLY. Thank God."...
I have never denied that I was forced into the Seed, that was always a given for me. But, I was 16 and doing drugs on a daily basis, I would have never willlingly signed myself into the program. That also is a reality. I am, however, very thankful that someone DID force me in, I believe it saved my life. My folks aren't around anymore, so I will thank You Guys... Thanks!
Chris
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Marshall, you and I think almost exactly alike on this entire topic.
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Marshall I totally understand what you are syaing here, and my sis Robin. I haven't posted in awhile, but I have to say I hated being court(Phoney) ordered into the seed. Yeah, I got high every day, I drank every day, and I was a real hard a**. I stole, helped with an armed robbery, and was just a total jerk. I was 17 when I went into the seed, but I didn't even know who I was, or even what feelings were. In the 10 months that I was in there I felt the pressure to conform. But conform to what? If I didn't I was afraid I'd never get out of there. Slowly but surely I started to discover some feelings inside myself. I know I didn't like what I saw when I looked into the mirror, yet as time went by I started to like myself. I came out of there not only off drugs and drink, but having a little better understanding of whom I was. I am glad my parents forced me to go, because I know I would be dead right along with my 16 old "druggie" friends. They were still lost, yet I went on with my life. I have no resentments nor anger towards anyone or my experience in the seed either. That is all in my past, yet the good parts of it I still have with me. My family was dysfunctional, and in some ways still are. Yeah know how things get swept under the rug. I'm still told not to bring issues up. That's not dealing with the issues, that's just putting them somewhere else. But whoops, it's still there. I tend to want to deal with my issues as soon as I can, then let them go. I follow the saying, "let go and let God". If it weren't for Him I'd still be a lost, confused woman. Thanks Marshall for being so open and honest. I appreciate it, and everyone else who shares their experience, strength, and hope. God Bless. Julie
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I was in the Seed in 1973 SR84
and I am here to say 33 years later , I hold them responsible for forcing me to to learn how love myself,
and how dare they guide me in a direction where I learned how to actually hold a job and could you believe they even made me stay away from my druggie friends and dysfuntional family so I could see there was a future if I stayed sober and drug free, It's their fault I am alive today a some what happy artist/ not model/ not actor living in sunny California.
Sincerly,
Brainwashed :scared:
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I was in The Seed about '73, lost lots of memory from heavy drug use as teenager, went back to
NorthEast High School and continued messing up.
15 years later, almost dead, I found AA, and have
been sober almost 20 years now.
This was a traumatic experience in my life, feel strange talking about it. I was there when they move from the city out to near Alligator Alley.
Can someone tell me some specifics about this period. I remember being in the tent, lived with
a heroin addict in Miami for a while.
Actually, I was a really messed up teenager that
was way out there. I would like to revisit some of these thoughts/feelings.
I live in KY now with a beautiful family, live is
good, but still have problems with anger, depression ect...but blessed indeed.
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I was in The Seed about '73, lost lots of memory from heavy drug use as teenager, went back to
NorthEast High School and continued messing up.
15 years later, almost dead, I found AA, and have
been sober almost 20 years now.
This was a traumatic experience in my life, feel strange talking about it. I was there when they move from the city out to near Alligator Alley.
Can someone tell me some specifics about this period. I remember being in the tent, lived with
a heroin addict in Miami for a while.
Actually, I was a really messed up teenager that
was way out there. I would like to revisit some of these thoughts/feelings.
I live in KY now with a beautiful family, live is
good, but still have problems with anger, depression ect...but blessed indeed.
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Finally, finally, thankyoujesus, YOU get it. Everyone here knows it saved your life - we have known that since day one. What has been missing and has been the basis of most of the posts in opposition to The Seed tactics was any proof of any supporter's understanding that this REALLY DID OCCUR. FINALLY. Thank God."
Well, Anon - if you had been following my posts from 'day one', you would have realized I've NEVER questioned or not believed anyone for what "they personally experienced" and realize it was different for each and every one of us. What "REALLY DID OCCUR" for me - is different than what occured for you. I just share MY experience and nothing else - It's that simple. Robin
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On 2005-08-27 18:45:00, rjfro22 wrote:
"I was in the Seed in 1973 SR84
and I am here to say 33 years later , I hold them responsible for forcing me to to learn how love myself,
and how dare they guide me in a direction where I learned how to actually hold a job and could you believe they even made me stay away from my druggie friends and dysfuntional family so I could see there was a future if I stayed sober and drug free, It's their fault I am alive today a some what happy artist/ not model/ not actor living in sunny California.
Sincerly,
Brainwashed :scared: "
Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me those people should be held accountable for forcing me to celebrate my 50th birthday, as a functional, intelligent, happy, gifted, loved human being! (also) Brainwashed in SO CAL... :wave:
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I came to the seed on my own. I had just turned 18, a senior in High School. My best friend made me promise to follow him in. I thought I was much more fucked up than he was, So I told my mother I needed help. She tried talking me into seeing her shrink (that she had been seeing for the last 10 or so years) I threw a fit and figured he did nothing for her, how could he help me. At the time I felt like "I'm not telling that guy shit" She took me to the seed next day. Now I was a pretty screwed up kid way before drugs ever entered the picture. Low self esteem no ambition, not really good at too much of anything(as far as I was concerened) I was an extremely emotionally distrought young man. I feared being drafted and being sent to Vietnam because I knew I would probably blow my brains out or run and hide. I feared I had many deep rooted problems, because I did not understand myself at all.
My father was an alcoholic (but an extremely talented and highly intelligent man. Just drunk on the floor passed out on his off days. (he was a fireman & I think sober for work)(I guess he didn't understand himself at the time either)Since has died but lived sober in AA for 25 years.
I wasn't a bad looking guy, blonde haired blue eyed 6 ft tall. But I felt like an ugly weird strange person.
(and I'm sure some will argue and say "all teenagers feel that way to a certain extent" and that may be true, but I didn't want to live.)
At the seed, people treated me kindly, I did not fear them. I trusted them and felt some sort of alliance for good & got help. I fell in love with everyone at the seed. As far as I was concerned I found a new family. I treated everyone like they were a part of my family and looked after them and did right by them. I remember kids looking up to me and following my example. I felt like a big brother to alot of kids. You can't fake that shit. I remember one of the parents calling me the all american kid. I had never felt like an "all american kid" now My world started to open up. I felt good about me. I no longer felt like the elephant man I really felt like a human being. I really felt for the first time in my life worth something.
I have since tried to apply everything that the seed taught me and incorporate it into my daily life. Yes I have a couple of quirks here and there. I really don't think I can blame that on the seed. It would be nice if I could.
Sure the seed wasn't perfect. Is your family? Not many are. Actually as time went on I had a problem or two with control issues. Its hard to keep things one way for newcomers and any other way for graduates. People were a little demanding. Guess what I had a mouth, I used it.
Sure sometimes people did not like what I said, and I was blackballed from certain things for awhile. Guess what I survived and I liked the person I was and isn't that what really counts?
My friends are my friends and those that arn't ...arn't. The ideals were there. If you lived them you really lived them and I hold true to them to this day.
Korean mind control? We never ate peanutbutter & jelly with chop sticks, if thats what you mean. It was more like discipline that was much needed in my life. Were they a little pushy? yeah. I needed a push. Sometimes a kick.
I didn't want this to sound like the perfect little seed testimonial, but I guess it does in some ways. Its the truth.
Sometime back people said didn't Art have a tatoo
on his arm? Yes he did from WW2 when he was just a kid himself. It bluraly now still reads "death before dishonor" and I believe, he really tried to live just that way... :smile:
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Man, how ironic. When talking about how good the Seed was, it's all about I, I, I, Me, Me, Me. As long as YOU all are happy and successful, where's the problem, right?
The problem is that the Program® has not been such a good thing for everyone forced into it and has become the defacto method of therapy for people who violate the drug statutes. Then, as now, the intake "interview" (aka grilling) never had anything to do w/ substance abuse issues. It was always about deviation from some momentary, arbitrary rules.
Check out Dr. Peele's content on ASAM
http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html)
You may notice, if you take the time to look into it, that Bobby DuPont (the shrink that Orwell warned us of) holds a seat on the BOD of that rather disturbing organization.
Program zealots have made a booming industry, largely publicly funded (ie welfare mamas and papas) of destroying the lives of people who reject their strident and often delusional beliefs about drugs.
That's the problem, guys. I'm glad ya'll have landed on your feet. But notice how few of us there are talking about it? And even those of us who are able and inclined to talk about it, I'd say it's about 50/50 pro/con. But don't confuse the drug nazis w/ facts or anything. They don't want to know. They just want the damned money and legal authority to continue their evangelical work and they tend to get downright nasty w/ anyone who questions anything they do, have done or propose to do. Just like in Group, only w/ guns and badges and legal authority to make arrests, suspend professional licensing and make legislation.
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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Ft. Lauderdale,
I am really glad we reconnected after all these years, you are one really great person, you really helped a lot of people through the many years with your strenght and hope & dedication . You walk like you talk.
God bless you Brother
rjfro22 :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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I realize that many of you believe strongly that going to the Seed saved your life, freed you from drug / alcohol use and made you a better person. Others believe just as strongly that the experience actually harmed them on some level, had little or no effect upon subsequent drug use or may have actually made the problem worse and made them more prone to depression and anxiety. Going back decades and trying to figure out what caused what can be a sort of mental masturbation...to borrow J.U.'s colorful term.
I honestly have no idea whether or to what extent the Seed experience helped or hindered me as a whole. I think this is true for lots of events / experiences in my life. I may have spiralled down into drug addiction if I hadn't gone to the seed. I may also have stopped using drugs even without the program. (This being the most likely outcome)
I spent several months in prison before going to the Seed. I could even make a good case that 'Prison saved my life.' The fear of returning there was a strong incentive to avoiding illegal drugs. There's a good chance that if I'd attended the seed alone without that fear of incarceration hanging over my head for 5 years of probation I would have quickly returned to regular drug use. I simply don't know or claim to know. Prison was a horrible experience and I would not wish it on anyone, especially a 17 yr. old kid. But it may have saved my life. The examples could go on to the more trivial. Maybe taking that right turn at that red light instead of the left saved my life. Maybe some particular phrase uttered by staff saved my life. Maybe that mangey dog crossing in my path saved my life. It's an exercise in futility, imo.
If both sides of the issue would examine this issue closely I think they'd have to honestly admit they have no idea at all as to what did or did not cause what. Some people killed themselves after graduating the Seed. If we are insistent upon crediting the program with all lives saved or suicides not committed...to be consistently honest, we must surely have to admit that the seed may have been the cause of their suicides as well.
I tend to be on the skeptical side of the 'seed saved my life' claim for several reasons. The biggest one being that this claim itself was a part of the teaching of the seed. If that claim were never mentioned as part of the program (ing) and a large group of graduates simply came to the independant conclusion that 'Indeed, the Seed saved my life' I would tend to give the claim more credence. But the claim was not only mentioned, it was regularly drilled into us beginning as newcomers. 'If' there was any degree of conditioning or thought-reform taking place there, this claim was surely a large part of it. It may simply be part of the dogma / conditioning to think this is true and endlessly repeat it or defend it when challenged. We're hindered in an objective examination somewhat by the fact that only 'living' seedlings can make this claim. Those who are dead can not sign on here and make the counterclaim that the Seed did not save my life or 'the seed caused me to commit suicide.
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Some of you have mentioned several of your old friends that have died (presumably of overdose or drug / alcohol related problems) and I have no reason to doubt you on this. However, again, in my own experience as far as I know none of my "old druggie friends" have died due to any of this. (one acquantance from high school did crash his car into a tree while drunk and died) The vast majority have either stopped using drugs completely on their own or smoke pot occassionally. Most are married, some divorced, some successful, some less so. I have no reason to believe my own life would have turned out much different from theirs. The only one that spent any time in prison was indirectly put there by me...I am ashamed to say. I turned states' evidence to avoid extensive prison time. We spoke a few years ago and he holds no hard feelings...we were both kids.
There is also the issue of continued drug or alcohol abuse. Part of the claim is that the Seed was the definitive cause of getting off drugs and alcohol. Being a drug-rehab, this claim was also itself an integral part of the content of what we were taught. It was drummed into us that 'the seed got me straight.' Again, I'd give the claim more weight if it wasn't such a strong part of the program itself. If we were instead told that any number of programs, influences or teachings from various sources could be the cause of our getting straight (ceasing drug use) and graduates simply came to the independent conclusion that it was the Seed program rather than any other factors that was responsible for discontinued drug use this would carry more weight. Unlike the suicide issue, we have some testimony from people that graduated the seed and continued drug use.
It is this that makes me even more skeptical of the claim that the Seed is fully responsible for 'getting me straight'. As Greg has repeatedly pointed out, there are lots of people that claim the seed is solely responsible for their sobriety but who freely admit that they graduated the program and returned to drug or alcohol abuse..in many cases becoming heavier users than before the Seed. Many of the same people that are insistent in their claim that the seed saved them and got them straight are the very ones who have struggled with on-going problems of substance abuse. If I have a joint in one hand and a bag of coke in the other while mouthing the claim that the seed is responsible for my sobriety, (or make this claim in the intermittent periods when I'm drug-free) this again lends support to the possibility that this claim is simply another conditioned response implanted by the seed itself. If I claim the Seed was the primary cause of saving me from substance abuse and yet I've been in AA off and on for years while experiencing intermittent problems with intoxicants...this reduces the claim to a purely subjective opinion. If we insist that the Seed program was the definitive cause of anyone who has successfully remained drug free, to be consistent we must also allow the possibility that it might be the cause of on-going or intensified drug abuse as well...or the more likely possibility (imo) that it simply was largely irrelevant to which of us did or didn't continue some form of abuse. The claim that most or all drug abusers end up insanedeadorinjail. is simply a lie. The vast majority don't even end up as drug abusers!
One poster also mentioned that she was 'more aware' than anyone else she knows. Again, I question claims of this sort simply because, once again, this too was a part of program dogma. We were all taught that we were more aware than 'all those others'..whether other straight people, graduates of other rehabs or certainly 'druggie assholes'.
An Anon. poster wrote this: "Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me those people should be held accountable for forcing me to celebrate my 50th birthday, as a functional, intelligent, happy, gifted, loved human being! (also) Brainwashed in SO CAL"
I don't take issue with this person's (admittedly glowing) self-evaluation. I do question whether any of this can be attributed to the Seed. I realize they do, but we were taught to do that on our program. What of all the former drug users (& I know of many) that never attended the seed or any rehab and are also happy, functional, etc.? How would you react if they attributed their own well-being to their former drug use? To finding Jesus? To converting to Islam? To Scientology (there are legions of these, btw)? To joining the libertarian party? Or to one of the other Seed knock-off programs?
This last poses unique questions. There are former straightlings (though not as many as seedlings) that defend that program and attribute their sobriety to being on that program. Yet, the majority of seedlings seem to take a very dim view of Straight and their methods. John regards it as 'based in conceit and dangerous'. It's my understanding that straight was closed because of numerous charges (& convictions) of abuse and mistreatment by staff. Does the fact that some people believe that Straight saved their lives and is the source of their happiness justify the existence of that program or it's many clones still in existence? The prevalent attitude amongst pro-seed defenders seems to be that only the Seed was good and pure with all other programs evil or defective. This is typical of religious and especially cultic devotees. It's an extreme and obvious case of 'the pot calling the kettle black.' So, all of those other programs are cults? Just not MY group! Right? They seem to think the same thing.
Sheesh...another freakin book! BTW, my daughter just gave birth to my latest grandson at 1:51 this a.m. Cigars for everyone! (Stripe & Ft. Lauderdale...glad to see u decided to stick around.) Goodnight all. :wave:
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Congrats Grandpa!!!!
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Congatulations on your first grandchild. I hope you find having a grandson blesses you, and brings you joy as my 2 have. ::birthday::
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Congrat's! Does this make your 4th? Do you want my address for the cigar? Kidding. :grin:
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Personally, I don't trust anyone anymore who says, "...[blank] saved my life..." because usually the person using this phrase is trying to sell me something - a religion, a product, a personality. I will never know for sure how my life turned out, if I had or hadn't done certain things or known certain people. We can't know the future. It's tough to figure out cause and effect. For example - half of all diseases go away on their own, spontaneously. Even doctors don't know why. Perhaps it was the medicine, perhaps it was diet, perhaps it was attitude or faith...or dumb luck. Besides, life is a terminal disease, and we will all die at some time anyway. So the question is, what we do with the time we have? Will I try to convert everyone I know to my views? Or will I be a good listener instead. Will I believe everything I hear? Or will I be a little skeptical, especially of easy answers and quick solutions.
I remember the proverb; "He who tells, knows not. He who knows, tells not."
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Thanks all. This one is # 4. 2 from my son & 2 from oldest daughter. Still waiting on baby daughter's. She wanted to get established in her career first but hopes to start a family in the next 2 or 3 years. Anyway, it's still a strange role being the patriarch of a fairly large extended family.
Ja Long, so you're a grandma? Awesome. Grandkids were an unexpected joy for me. Didn't realize they'd bring so much happiness. BTW, you seem to have a very balanced, healthy attitude re the seed.
Walter,I think that quote is from the tao te ching. It usually translates something like; "He who knows does not speak (of the tao). He who speaks of it, does not know." Thanks as always for your input.