Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: Paul St. John on July 12, 2010, 05:23:40 PM
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Can we please put an end to using this term?
The things that people write about here, that happened awhile back, may not have been yesterday, but they were certainly not isolated incidents. They were the norm. Can we all just agree to that? Sometimes, the incidents were extra bad, like people dying, but even in the cases of the extremes, they were not isolated events. They were events that were bound to happen every so often, under the circumstances created by the programs.
Paul St. John
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"Loosers" and "loose your mind" or "loose a few kids" are common misspellings of Whooter. I think Whooter is "Pile of Shit." What do you think, Paul?
You guys are letting Pile off way to easy! Burn Pile at the stake.
It'll never happen....Dont confuse anti-program with pro-children.
Fornits is purely anti-program... if they loose a few kids along the way to prove a point it doesnt matter to them as long as programs look bad. It will all be forgotten in a few days and the cowards (Pile of Dead kids and Niles) will come back out of the shadows and everyone will give them hugs and ask them how they have been.
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Nihilanthic and Pile of Dead Kids are loosers because they endagered the life of a minor"
At least he has aptly named himself this time :rofl: Fire up those sockpuppets to fight the extremists, Whooter!
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DJ - as much as I can't stand Whooter, and that whole incident on ED just serves his pro program cause by putting the For Nuts in Fornits, I do not think he had anything to do with it. One, lose/loose is a common error. (I used to be an editor - great spellers and linguists make this error consistently. They know the difference... just going too fast.) But the other thing is that there are 1-2 people here who are more closely associated with ED, and tend toward the extreme. I'm not naming names. I'm just saying, don't waste your time down the wrong rabbit hole.
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Ummmm... So anyway, are we in agreement... No more "Isolated incidents"?
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DJ - as much as I can't stand Whooter, and that whole incident on ED just serves his pro program cause by putting the For Nuts in Fornits, I do not think he had anything to do with it. One, lose/loose is a common error. (I used to be an editor - great spellers and linguists make this error consistently. They know the difference... just going too fast.) But the other thing is that there are 1-2 people here who are more closely associated with ED, and tend toward the extreme. I'm not naming names. I'm just saying, don't waste your time down the wrong rabbit hole.
Thank you Samara, you just confirmed what Whooter, Suck It, others and myself have been saying all along, your anger towards Pile pales compared to what you feel about Whooter. Yet Whooter has never went out of his way to endanger anyone.
What a baseless waste of energy you expend on Whooter with absolutely no evidence or reason for that matter. Other then he does not agree with you.
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How 'bout those " isolated incidents".
Sure would be nice if we could get rid of that idea.
Paul
PS Danny, Samara misunderstood DJ's post.
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Ummmm... So anyway, are we in agreement... No more "Isolated incidents"?
come on you can't be this intolerant, there are isolated incidents or maybe they should be called experiences. Remember when we first started talking and I talked about perceptions, this is what I meant.
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How 'bout those " isolated incidents".
Sure would be nice if we could get rid of that idea.
Paul
PS Danny, Samara misunderstood DJ's post.
Sorry I will not derail your thread.
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Danny, if you go back to your bold-typed quote, you referred to all the experiences as isolated. Whooter, and Suck_It, often do this as well.
A single poster's wrong actions, and the approval of this act, by one other single poster, does not give license to erase all that has been done by the programs.
This really has nothing to do with anything. This, my friend, is what you really refer to as an "isolated incident". It should remain it's own issue.
Also, I will be honest, I am torn. I am unsure of something... On one hand, this is kind of a big deal. On the other, I see it as a bad thing, and I am not sure that so much time should be spent on it. Is this the last thing Morgan should remember, as the results of her research?
Is how we want it to go down. She is still going to a program soon. Does anybody remember that?
I am sorry. You can say what you want about Whooter.. I don t think he gives a fuck about the girl's well-being. I think he cares about being right.
Paul St. John
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Danny, if you go back to your bold-typed quote, you referred to all the experiences as isolated. Whooter, and Suck_It, often do this as well.
A single poster's wrong actions, and the approval of this act, by one other single poster, does not give license to erase all that has been done by the programs.
This really has nothing to do with anything. This, my friend, is what you really refer to as an "isolated incident". It should remain it's own issue.
Also, I will be honest, I am torn. I am unsure of something... On one hand, this is kind of a big deal. On the other, I see it as a bad thing, and I am not sure that so much time should be spent on it. Is this the last thing Morgan should remember, as the results of her research?
Is how we want it to go down. She is still going to a program soon. Does anybody remember that?
I am sorry. You can say what you want about Whooter.. I don t think he gives a fuck about the girl's well-being. I think he cares about being right.
Paul St. John
You are right about everything you said but one thing the last thing, "children" especially a daughter. Have one Paul you will understand. I have one, Whooter has one. This will be all I say about this. Your right it is over, tell this to niles.
I appreciate your opinions Paul, never forget this.
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To clarify, I thought DJ wondered if Whooter or Suck It authored the ED thread, and I said I did not think so and stated why. Just because I dislike Whooter does not mean I think actions should ebeascribed to people who are not guilty.
My feelings for Whooter is not about being pro-program - it's about sabotage, derailment, and insincerity of which there have been years' worth of posts. You don't get it and that's fine. If you wish to think the worst, there is not much I can do. My feelings for programs have evolved over time, and has been solidified by further study off Fornits. In fact, you don't really know what I think.
I think it is possible that you are guilty of doing what you accuse every one under the Fornits sun of doing - looking at people through one lens.
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And Paul, sorry I went off topic. Isolated incidences refers to the idea that what happened at program was isolated to a staff or a year, but not indicative of a program holistically. CEDU, Straight, Elan and others were not therapeutically abusive in isolation. They were systemically unethical. I do not think their offshoot programs, staffed by the same folks with duplicate, but renamed practices, fare better.
The fact that a teacher at an old school - a good school with a solid administration - engaged in sexual misconduct with a student was an isolated incident that was dealt with imemdiately and firmly. If someone said there may be isolated incidences of therapeutic abuse at CEDU, I would say that is wrong.
Isolated incidences is a good terms to describe how some people try and whitewash certain programs. It's just insulting to those who have been through the program and know differently.
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To clarify, I thought DJ wondered if Whooter or Suck It authored the ED thread, and I said I did not think so and stated why. Just because I dislike Whooter does not mean I think actions should ebeascribed to people who are not guilty.
My feelings for Whooter is not about being pro-program - it's about sabotage, derailment, and insincerity of which there have been years' worth of posts. You don't get it and that's fine. If you wish to think the worst, there is not much I can do. My feelings for programs have evolved over time, and has been solidified by further study off Fornits. In fact, you don't really know what I think.
I think it is possible that you are guilty of doing what you accuse every one under the Fornits sun of doing - looking at people through one lens.
Listen I am not going to get into a tit for tat with you too, I have had some rather nice exchanges with you and would like to keep it that way.
Whooter is not that much different then I am, there are a couple of exceptions I was in a program and he writes better, oh OK he holds his temper better too. But his take on how programs can work, are essential, and are going to exist, well I am not that far off track.
Yes that is coming from someone that was in a program, worked for a program, still am affiliated with programs in a round about way and still see the need for certain programs.
Now if that makes me the black sheep of the family so be it, actually if you were not so closed minded you could see not every program is like the one you went to. I will agree there are programs out there that are falling far short of there stated objectives. I will also say not all programs are failing in their services they provide.
Whether we like it or not, not every family wants to deal with the problem or can, not every child has parents to turn to, children comes from all kinds of situations and not every child has parents with funds to hire counselors or have the Insurance. So please lets talk reality instead of a idealistic point of view.
It seems we are all experts in this field, we went to programs, then went to college, then came out and did more research,
Jeesh, like I said, "everybody is a expert". Well that is great.
Last thing here is a excerpt of your last post;
"My feelings for Whooter is not about being pro-program - it's about sabotage, derailment, and insincerity of which there have been years' worth of posts. You don't get it and that's fine. If you wish to think the worst, there is not much I can do. My feelings for programs have evolved over time, and has been solidified by further study off Fornits. In fact, you don't really know what I think".
Well was this part of your research also, investigating Whooter. Only you folks get it and any one else who disagrees is "you don't get it and that's fine", OK then.
Everybody's feelings for programs have evolved over time, they were 20-30 yrs. ago and most here have furthered their studies off fornits, though I suspect you studied here also.
As for knowing how you think, ya I can get a perspective from your posts, yeppers I can.
Back to Whooter, what is this sabotage, derailment and insincerity all about here, years of posting, come on Samara. Please tell me your not caught up in the conspiracy theories too.
Your blinded by the beacon of light, the fornits light, get out of the light and you will see, we are just average garden variety Joes, seeking answers.
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DB - Again, you are overgeneralizing and addressing me in the same manner you rail against. I guess that is easy to do in this medium. I actually didn't get sucked into conspiracy theories re: Whooter. In fact, for years, I did not visit the threads and did not get the whole initial brouhaha over Whooter. Over time and after certain incidences I formed my own opinions. Whether I agree or diagree with programs does not mean I agree with everything posters here say - on either side. My thoughts on programs haven't really evolved over 20 years. They were in stasis for many. It's only been the last six that I've established my current mind set, due to a confluence of factors including field experience, and other factors. I'm not going to argue over the development of my opinions. I'm entitled to them. I haven't delved into old posts re: Whooter so I haven't formulated any conspiracy theories about his fiduciary interests. I do not know or care where he works. I haven't followed theories of his identity or real name... It's other things, some subtle, some not so much that caused me to develop my dislike. To say its because he is pro-program does not cover it. I'm not quite that simplistic, and my feelings for him developed from own thought processes - not from jumping on bandwagons. If that were true, I was very very very late to join that bandwagon. I also don't dismiss him as easily as others. I think he is very effective; we're just not going to agree on his purpose or machinations. But he would make a fantastic lawyer or politician.
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Also, DB, my views are not formulated by the singularity of my program or experience. I am especially familiar with a number of programs, and when I see another that uses the same staff, techniques or basis, it trips my alarm bells. I feel that you are close minded in the sense that you want to pigeonhole me.
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DB - Again, you are overgeneralizing and addressing me in the same manner you rail against. I guess that is easy to do in this medium. I actually didn't get sucked into conspiracy theories re: Whooter. In fact, for years, I did not visit the threads and did not get the whole initial brouhaha over Whooter. Over time and after certain incidences I formed my own opinions. Whether I agree or diagree with programs does not mean I agree with everything posters here say - on either side. My thoughts on programs haven't really evolved over 20 years. They were in stasis for many. It's only been the last six that I've established my current mind set, due to a confluence of factors including field experience, and other factors. I'm not going to argue over the development of my opinions. I'm entitled to them. I haven't delved into old posts re: Whooter so I haven't formulated any conspiracy theories about his fiduciary interests. I do not know or care where he works. I haven't followed theories of his identity or real name... It's other things, some subtle, some not so much that caused me to develop my dislike. To say its because he is pro-program does not cover it. I'm not quite that simplistic, and my feelings for him developed from own thought processes - not from jumping on bandwagons. If that were true, I was very very very late to join that bandwagon. I also don't dismiss him as easily as others. I think he is very effective; we're just not going to agree on his purpose or machinations. But he would make a fantastic lawyer or politician.
Ya know you are right, I am starting to rail and rant. So I am going to stop and go back to having congenial conversations with you. Whooter is really not the issue between us, is it?? We have our own differences to debate, now I will say my English Literature classes usually went on without me, so please be patient. Plus when I get excited my words jump all over the place and can be left out, that dyslexia thing I have.
Writing was always very frustrating for me because of my dyslexia, it has gotten much better. Normally I would have a secretary do my writing (typing), I would just use a Dictaphone. So I never paid much attention to grammar.
I am determined to do my own writing here, if it kills me or Anne first....lol.
Anyway off on a tangent there, sorry.
Whooter, one last comment...you could be wrong Samara.
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I don't really understand people harping on loose/lose there/their/here/hear etc. anyway. It's just another way to get in a dig after people piss us off.
Lucid writing is always nice, but I'm not going to kill myself over typos or write an academic essay unless I'm getting paid or graded. ;)
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Some thoughts on the OP:
Isolated incidents do occur, but I think it is a matter of perspective or maybe definition which is the basis for disagreement.
If a child dies of dehydration and it turns out that the staff are poorly trained in general then this would not be an isolated incident, even if this is the first child to die. The underlying time bomb was ticking.
But if a child dies in wilderness of a bug bite or allergy that went undetected and the staff were properly trained then I would consider this an isolated incident.
I think if we can locate a systemic problem within the system or process which causes (or caused) harm then isolated cases cannot occur within that system.
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When I was a kid, back when dinasaurs roamed the set of the Brady Bunch, Art Barker (Blessedly departed Seed founder) actually had the audacity to call us "patients". That's a legally defined term of art so they had to come up with something different. Clients. I was in group at Straight Inc. sometime between `80 and `83 when Staff came in and interrupted rap to instruct us on a few lingo changes behind the then current investigataion. We were no longer patients, we were clients. We weren't going 'home' to foster homes that night, we were going home to 'host homes' ('foster home' was another term of art with legal ramifications.)
The 'child' is the 'product???? Give me a fucking break! The parents' money is a byproduct. The political currency is the real product. The client is just screwed. Welcome to corporate Amerika. Take your place in line and stfu!
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When I was a kid, back when dinasaurs roamed the set of the Brady Bunch, Art Barker (Blessedly departed Seed founder) actually had the audacity to call us "patients". That's a legally defined term of art so they had to come up with something different. Clients. I was in group at Straight Inc. sometime between `80 and `83 when Staff came in and interrupted rap to instruct us on a few lingo changes behind the then current investigataion. We were no longer patients, we were clients. We weren't going 'home' to foster homes that night, we were going home to 'host homes' ('foster home' was another term of art with legal ramifications.)
The 'child' is the 'product???? Give me a fucking break! The parents' money is a byproduct. The political currency is the real product. The client is just screwed. Welcome to corporate Amerika. Take your place in line and stfu!
Now this is the Antigen we all know and love, Bravo.
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This post is an isolated incident.
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This post is an isolated incident.
Tim how's it going my friend, where have you been. Good to see you back, your wisdom was missed. Don't be a stranger.
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Can we please put an end to using this term?
The things that people write about here, that happened awhile back, may not have been yesterday, but they were certainly not isolated incidents. They were the norm. Can we all just agree to that? Sometimes, the incidents were extra bad, like people dying, but even in the cases of the extremes, they were not isolated events. They were events that were bound to happen every so often, under the circumstances created by the programs.
Paul St. John
True words, these... :notworthy:
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Ursus and I have discussed and debated this issue in relation to boystown, (see the tti industry thread) To my mind any school or institution that takes is pupils/patients ect against their will and seems to have something to hide so limits the ability to communicate freely with the outside world or has rules that by basic community standards would be considered unreasonable should be viewed suspiciously. Usually if there is some reason to hide things it is because nothing good is happening.
I would argue that the response to the "isolated incident" is important. It is rare but occasionally at normal schools tragedies occur within the context of sports games etc. Usually the kid is rushed to hospital immediately. it is only within this industry that i have ever heard of any time being given to debating or "monotoring" the validity of the kid's complaint. I am actually surprised that more kids are not injured by this industry which is why i think it is less about looking at "death counts" as such and more about the general practices of a place. For instance i don't know of any kid who died in "the ring" at Elan but i still find it staggering that this practice existed till 2000.
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For instance i don't know of any kid who died in "the ring" at Elan but i still find it staggering that this practice existed till 2000.
Fwiw, emphasis added:
Originally posted (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21974#p266181) on 16 Jun 2007 07:04:
Hello,my name is Jim. I stopped posting here awhile back for obvious reasons. I just wanted to let you know that when I was in Elan nobody was notified when a ring event happened. I witnessed my friend Phil Williams' death as a result of a brain aneurysm immediately following one of these "rings'. It was very disturbing. He didn't even have parents to call. Actually that is only partly true,but I don't think the state prison takes calls from Elan. I don't know when they started calling parents to approve rings. It seems crazy that parents would approve such actions against their own children.
Hi Jim, I think that was probably my question re. parental notification when a Ring is to be held... I am very sorry about your friend Phil; I was appalled to learn of his death. I can't believe Elan did not have the shit sued out of it in the aftermath of that. Yes, a brain aneurysm or burst can happen after "boxing trauma."
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It turns out there is a facebook entry where a guy describes this incident. (see below) It is unbelievable that charges were not laid. It seems they took a sick kid and belted him till they finished him off. Unfortunately it seems the boy was a ward of the state. I guess the poor kid did not have many chances in life :heartbreak:
2nd Post by Dave
Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply, not online that much anymore.
The incident I'm reffering to happened during the Christmas holidays in 1982. The resident who died was Phil Williams, a 16 year old from the state of Maine. Unfortunatly, Phil was a ward of the state, because his father was in jail for killing his mother. Phil was a Coordinator Trainee, and started complaining of having headaches. The staff felt that he was malingering, and doin this just so he didn't have to deal with the book (ie. give haircuts). This esculated to the point where he was GM'd and put in the ring for reacting during GM.(for those that thought the ring was only used for people who were violent, think again)After going 3 rounds, I think, hard to remember after over 20 years, Phil went unconscious and started vomitting profusely. After laying on the floor for around an hour,The "Staff" decided he should be brought to hospital. As for who these staff were, I'm sorry, but I cannot remember. It was a weekend and the regular house staff were not there, that much I remember. For what Director, there 'prolly wasn't one there.It was common practice that GM and Rings to be held with just whatever staff was on duty, no director required.
The following Monday, that hack of a nurse they had, came in to tell the house that what Phil died from was an enbolism and that he 'prolly would have died anyways, regardless of the ring (pretty convienent for Elan, I imagine)
Myself, 2 other residents and a staff member did go to his funeral. I'm glad Elan showed this amount of respect.
As for an investigation, I doubt there even was one. Noone ever came to house in an official capacity and asked questions of the residents. This is most likely due to he had no family to push the issue.
I would like to think that if Phil had recieved proper madical treatment prior to being in the ring, maybe he would have been ok. But this is something I'll never know.Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry[/quot
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Sing along here... Just another isolated incident, just another isolated incident' not hardly. I've worked safety and security for a long time, in many different venue. Bad things happen when people cut corners. People cut corners when they are A) opportunists and B) think no one is looking.
Here are the models i work with, models that have never failed me. First is the Fire Triangle ... Imagine a triangle.. at one point put heat, another point oxygen, the third point combustible material. if the proportions are correct, YOU WILL HAVE A FIRE.. alter the proportions of any and... No fire.
Second Model The Crime Triangle at one point put Incentive, at the second point put Opportunity, at the third, Frustration. If the proper proportion exists YOU WILL HAVE A CRIME... alter the proportions, no crime.
Programs are a perfect environment, in that you have a population of frustrated opportunists (staff), presented with near unlimited possibilities (vulnerable kids) The incentive is for the opportunists to relieve their frustration by victimizing the kids. The same principle works on construction sites, If no one is specifically charged with safety, YOU WILL HAVE INJURY.
I don't buy the "another isolated incident" rap. Many of the kids 'in program' are a crime in progress. Shall we address them with a greater, more profitable, more socially acceptable crime in progress?
J.O.M. ::unhappy::