Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on August 30, 2004, 04:27:00 PM
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I have some powerful memories of being in the Cleveland Seed in 1977, transfering to State Rt. 84 facility six months later. I stayed in for seven long years, until escaping in 1986.
From reading posts here, I see that emotions run form deep anger to gratitude. Anyone uninterested in their experience would likely not post.
When I entered I was a really shy, socially awkward college dropout who was clinically depressed and full of anger. My disfunctional family had imploded and my Seedling brother who proceeded me into the program seemed to be really, really happy. I cam in and stayed and he split. It took me seven years to regain enough self-awareness to leave.
My years at the Seed where powerful and emotionally intense. I felt so close to a few key people but really alienated and afraid of those who seemed to have power. I always felt like an outsider and desperately wanted to be a part - the Seed convinced me that my life and sanity depended on it at first - later I just had a hard time admitting I'd made a mistake and I was afraid to leave.
When I did leave, I entered therapy and went to Adult Children of Alcoholics, another cult in a way but by then I had learned my lesson.
Today I am a pretty functional adult.
OK - here's some memories of The Seed 1977-1986 -
Getting up at 5:00 am to be dropped off in some strange house and sleeping on a still warm bed.
Some Cleveland oldcomer who had a '68 Comaro convertible (Cleveland Oldcomers tended to be gearheads - unreformed by the Seed!)
The former Catholic home on Detroit Avenue in Cleveland, full of statues of saints
Moving to Florida, and the huge, vacant rooms in Broward Alligator Alley location full of rows of empty chairs (part of the legend)
Staying up for nightwatch detail at the above location
Swimming at someone's pool
Endless games of baseball SR 84 and football at Hollywoon beach (I hated sports, was bad at them too, and was really bored the entire time - what a waste of my life!)
I formed intense bonds with a couple of people - like best friends, but I realized that I ultimately could never fit in - wasn't 'cool' enough, in Seed terms, to really have juice.
I was one of the Seed 'worker bees' - loyal, quiet, hard working and basically unrewarded
I finally escaped when I woke up one morning at 3:00 am, knowing that I had to leave. I crept out of the house, loaded up my VW Beetle, and drove north. Halfway I changed my mind, and tried to call my Seed house and turn my self in. No answer, thank god, and I awoke and returned to Cleveland.
Sometimes I wonder what happened to Mitch, Brad, Fred, Ginger, Patty, and all my other cohorts. Underneath the cult exterior some of them where really nice people. I imagine they are all Republicans now, they were pretty close then.
The drug days? I hardly used any. Alcohol was my family poison and I had to deal with that. Art was trying to roll back the 60s and at the same time coopt its idealism - that's what George Bush's America is so adept at.
OK, sorry for the politics but I just had to vent. I hope to learn more from this site but it seems hard to navigate. I don't do much of this. Thanks for maintaining this!
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Welcome Cleveland!. Two new guys in one day. The site is starting to take off again. You are so welcome.
Ohio Seed, Eh? You must remember John Perloff...he is now Art Barkers Attorney and reportedly still close to the inner circle.
Evan Wright? Remember him? Big time reporter and author..his recent book being made into a HBO miniseries.
Other than that, Same deal. Please take some time and read thru the forum, give us a story, and participate often. All opinions are welcomed and solicited here.
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Greetings Wally Gator!
Seven (7) years!! Now, that is tooooooo long. When did you graduate your program? I was in for 12 months & while I didn't hate the Seed... I had had enough & was ready to go on with working, going to school, etc.... never went back.
Were you on staff or otherwise employed at the Seed during your time at Ft Lauderdale? Were you there everyday or did you just stay active with the program?
Being involved with the program for so long, you probably have alot of stories which we would love for you to share.
I can understand how you could find things to like about your fellow seedlings. Alot of them were very good people. I was lucky to have all good oldcomers when I was there as well as a bunch of graduates in my hometown of Sarasota that I was very close to. I can't say that about staff... just because I didn't ever get to know them in my short time there (their job was to be our overseers... not our friends or peers of course).
..... look forward to hearing more of your story.
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People went to the seed from all walks of life. Good people, bad people, mentally ill, mentally strong.
We have people that are police, politicians, and drug addicts and on death row as graduates. Seedlings were representations of all walks of WHITE SOCIETY.
What seedling weren't is the chosen people,the seed army, or any other such cultic dribble.
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No matter how long ago I was at the Seed, it was such a vivid experience that reading about it still gives me chills.
I think that the Seed was extremely clever at developing loyalty and playing with our emotions. I was a pretty rootless 19 year old, and I was really looking for something to belong to. The Seed gave me that, or at least the illusion of it. At some point, I realized that I would never truly belong to it (after all, you can't belong to something that asks you to repress who you are) but I still thought that we were special "changing the world" or "homo superior" as Art used to call it. The Seed was also really great at playing on my insecurities. Because I was a relatively priveleged, white, suburban kid, I was made to feel like the Seed people were more real, that Art's experiences in life were more relevant than mine - that he was a hero, that he had succeeded in society yet removed himself from it so he could be with us.
At some point, the need to be a "perfect seedling" and to remove big parts of my self from public view began to bother me. I wanted to be myself, express my creativity, fall in love, have real friendships that weren't subject to staff approval. I inwardly rebelled for a long time before I left - I knew I was living a lie.
The humiliation that was part of my entry into the program also reinforced the difficulty I had leaving - the body cavity search, being told that I was wrong about everything I'd ever done, that my friends were all bad for me and I was bad for them, that I didn't know how to be a friend, that my family was totally fucked up, that I couldn't make it on my own. Contrast that with being told 'we love you' over and over again, and that my oldcomers were really brilliant at picking up on my needs and fears, and that the staff was really savvy at subtle coercion. Plus, hey, some of the girls were hot, and I wanted them to like me.
And that brings up sex. I guess I had a lot of guilt about my admittedly limited sexual relationships at 19, but the Seed really made me feel like a looser. I remember we were not even supposed to think about sex - remember being told to 'get your head out of the gutter' all the time? I really did make an effort to not think about sex AT ALL - jeez. We played football on the beach with the girls and it was SO HARD to not get that out of your head - they all wore bikinis. I was guilty as charged. After a while I just said fuck it and I became really good at having sexual fantasies during the rap sessions while still formulating a Seed-appropriate response in case I was called on. I think that's when the hyporcrasy of the whole thing fell into place for me and made it much easier to eventually leave.
I entered the Seed progam on August 15, 1978. I had dropped out of college, so depressed I could hardly stand living anymore. I had gone to an Open Meeting in Cleveland and - this was the 70s - there were kids who actually looked happy (it was so cool to look miserable if you were a 19 year old in 1978). I fell for it. Senior staff in Cleveland Scott Barebitski was completely charming, struck me as a hipster, and let me feel like I was in for a real treat if I entered the program. I said 'what the fuck' and before I knew it I was strip searched, all of my 'druggie' clothing was taken away, my hair was cut to military specs, and I was sitting on the front row thinking 'what the fuck have I done?'
Staff at the time was Hank, Bob (a mean guy - I never liked him), and - now I can't remember, an older (like 35) brunette who spoke in a very soft voice and had once had a date with Burt Reynolds. There were some Jr. staff. John Perloff for one. He was a typical product of upper class suburban Cleveland - good looking and smart, but vain about it too I always thought.
Most of the Cleveland oldtimers where real blue collar cleveland types - big guys who worked at Ridge tool or warehouses, and they had hot cars like Camaros or Chevelles (which I always thought was a violation of our 'I'm not supposed to look cool or enjoy material things' vow). Months after I entered (praying to leave every, every day) the whole program moved to Florida, which was cool with me because I had spent happy summers there as a kid. Art and Shelley had come up to Cleveland a few times and I thought his softshoe, old-school jokes and military stories were cool. I was excited about going.
In Florida we had Libby, Cookie, Ginger, and Evie. Libby scared me a little but I thought I understood her 'poor little rich girl' story. Cookie seemed resonable, Evie was nice. But I had a huge crush on Ginger. She was smart, funny and seemed to understand me better that I understood myself. That was definitely used to keep me interested. The guys - Hank from Cleveland, who seemed to leave eventually, Cliff, and later sort of his brother Fred, Ken, Scott B., John P., others. Robert came up sometimes, this huge, soft spoken black guy who gave off a lot of street cred.
Whatever we did there was always the rigid heirarchy of who was in and out. Who's the best newcomer? Who does Art talk to? Who gets to be called on? Who is your oldcomer - somebody cool, I hope? Whatever natural 'Lord of the Flies' kind of thing we might have was rigidly enforced. I even remmber when Cookie had start over on the front row, and she was right under Libby.
Seven years. Remember Jim Helm? He was one of my favorite people, and if he was part of this, how could it be bad?
OK, more to come later. This is kind of cathartic!
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One of the reasons I love when new people come here is I always learn new things.
"homo Superior" Is what Art was calling you guys eh? When I was there I never remember hearing that, but his 'Seed army' philosophy was in full swing as was the very cultic declaration that we were fullfilling destiny to change the world and save america. I bought into it for only a short while then sat there for my remaining time totally in fear that my free-will would be found out and I would be started over. I was never more relieved in my life or anytime since when they called me out and muttered those magic words..."greg .., STAND-UP...You are off your program". I remember getting weak in the knees and almost passing out, and it wasn't from pride, it was more related to a bird, being held in captiviy, getting to fly away again for the first time.
"I was made to feel like the Seed people were more real, that Art's experiences in life were more relevant than mine - that he was a hero, that he had succeeded in society yet removed himself from it so he could be with us."
This was a myth Art built around himself, that he was making unlimited money as a comic and sacrificed personally, professionally and financially to "save us kids". The St Pete Times had the savy to actually check this claim out, and according to them he was making the equivalent of $3 grand per year filling in at the playboy club in miami and living on a boat.
His financial success at the Seed was tremendous..one only has to look at his public financial holdings to understand. The whole time he was reaping this financial bonanza he was holding himself out as a martyr. This is a formula repeated over and over in our society by people that rise to power in small exclusive groups (cults).
Your post is briliant. Looking forward to more.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-08-31 11:13 ]
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Speaking of Sex and the Seed...three personal things immediately come to mind.
1) on the day I entered I hadn't even hit puberty. All the older post pubescent guys telling me "i love you", putting their arms around me, sleeping in close proximity to me...it all felt like sexual abuse to me and was terrifying.
2) Guys rap was terrifying and I believe the sole purpose was to get you to admit sexually personal things to use against you. I remember this one guy, stood up and admitted to a homosexual experience in the "privacy" of guys rap. It seemed real important to get it off his chest. Later that night they stood him up and group and called him all kinds of degrading names, told him if he didn't make it in the seed he would be raped every night in prison, etc. etc. This went on for hours and he disappeared shortly after that. Of course, Those that disapeared were never to be spoke of, and I often wondered what happened to him, how traumatized he was by sharing his innermost secret only to have it used against him by 700 kids in a degrading and humiliating fashion.
3) I hit puberty one night during my third month or so of the Seed. I gotta say this distracted me somewhat from my mission to save the world...I had more pressing issues to deal with. :grin:
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I think this forum is a very powerful tool. Those who fail to understand the past are destined to repeat it, as someone once said.
I have read some of the postings and I feel that I have good, but incomplete memories to share. I am not sure about 'naming names' because perhaps some people are not comfortable being 'outed,' on the other hand I am really curious about different people and will use first name, last initial if that's OK. It appears from what I've read that some of the core of the Seed when I was there, '78 through '86, are still living in the Ft. Lauderdale area and perhaps moniter this site. Hello to you all, I still Love You! Ha. Indeed I do.
The question of whether the Seed 'saved my life' or hurt me is an interesting question. I guess I am inclined to think that I took a lot away from the experience, although some of it is NOT what the staff wanted me to take. Here goes:
An unwillingness to pretend to be someone I'm not
An understanding of just how gullible I am - how anyone can be
How much we all need and want to be loved
A willingness to work hard, and do things I don't necessarily want to do. So much of what I did day to day at the Seed was hard for me and took a lot of self-discipline, so I did get that!
I didn't have a drink for about a year after I left the Seed - that first taste of wine was mightly sweet. At the same time, half of my immediate family is in AA or struggles with drinking, so it's a tendancy I am aware of. I see it as avery pleasure has a price - be aware of it - all things in moderation. This goes for getting high too. I think drugs should be legalized and put more money in REAL treatment. With kids the hard thing is that society lacks structure, and that's what I was looking for at the Seed.
OK, what else did I get? I learned that it is OK to be totally outside of society - walking around arm in arm with your oldcomer, telling people you love them, and telling druggies to 'fuck off' gives you that. Hey it's fun to be an outsider! But I also learned that even outsiders have strict codes of conformity with each other.
I have returned to my pre-Seed idealism in many ways. Once I left, and rejoined the mainstream, I realized just how many great people are out here, trying to live a good life and be a good part of society. Being really close to people at the Seed but not being really honest - inhibiting everything 'non-Seed' about me, has given me a strong BS radar while at the same time I am aware how easily I can deceive myself.
Other things? I was really really depressed when I entered the Seed and for seven years I was NOT allowed to give into it. So I did learn to repress it. It came out again strongly once I left, and I think that while I was not 'depressed' when I was in I was super anxious all the time. I had panic attacks when I was at the Seed which I never spoke about because I was a defective Seedling. After I left I worked really hard to deal with and understand who I was, instead of papering over it with slogans like 'You're Not Alone Anymore.'
After I left the Seed I did a lot of things I really wanted to do. Went to Europe - graduated from college - went to art school - learned how to play the piano - got a girlfriend! Time has passed so quickly. I used to mark my 'post Seed' aniversary. I remember when I was out for seven years, as long as I was in. Now I am 45 years old, and 1986, when I left, is closing in on 20 years ago. So hard to believe. I am now ten years younger than Art was when I went in.
People I remember: there was Steve H. and his sister, Nancy. He was 35 when I lived with him. Steve had a great sense of humor. Ray K., I've seen posts elsewhere, has apparently died. Ray left the Seed after he and Laura (they were both staff) married, without Art's approval. His brother Bob married Libby? Wow. John Perloff married Kathy - KP? from Cleveland. She was really a sweet girl. John G. from Cleveland was married and they had a child. Then there was Randy - he played guitar and had a great voice. He was also married to a Seed woman. I worked with him in the family print shop - also at this place was Larry from Cleveland, who split days before I did, and he'd been around longer than I had. Seth, who worked for Sears - Art gave him a lot of leeway; he was kind of an outsider, and loved music, but didn't do much Seed stuff outside of exude a kind of 'I've been straight forever' vibe. There was Fred, Cliff's brother, who was Jr. staff. Brad from Georgia, who was a gifted athlete, nice guy, and part of the inner circle (as were many of the people I recall, since by '86 you were either in the circle or near it); there was Julio and Mandy, we'd had an influx of Cubans in the later years.
Does anyone remember Bob? He had been a big part of things when I came to Florida in '78. Very charismatic, I lived in his apt. in Plantation. He was friends with Robert and had shot himself in the chest with a shotgun pre-Seed, which gave him lots of cred. His big thing was talking about how he used to 'lay and play' and I guess he did 'cause he split when I was there which was one of my first indications that all was not right at the Seed 'cause why would such an insider split? Then there was Nona Z., a sometime staff member who was also in and out. It seemed at the end that there was a group of long-time insiders who kind of flirted with the outside world. I guess the rest of us weren't strong enough to face temptation. Maybe it's like the Rumspringer the Amish go through, when they are allowed to go crazy for a while before they commit to the Amish life. Anyway, that always bugged me, because I was very literal and observant in my Seed-ness, without ever making it to the inner circle.
I really wanted to be a staff member. That seemed like the ultimate of cool for me, I am so embarrased to say. Thank god I never did.
In the end, it was all about being cool, wasn't it? Just like the outside world.
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There has been some talk of the "boxing ring" in the cleveland seed. This was told to me by someone who was there, but we did not have it in St Pete.
It is interesting because it was also done at Elan and several other synanon spinoffs.
You got any recollection of this?
Shame you don't remember Evan because he was there when the Ohio Seed closed down. He was only 14 or so at the time.
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I do remember talk of boxing in the Cleveland Seed. There was a tall, skinny black kid who was supposed to be really good at it. I remember he wanted to be an entertainer, and that he would do a modern dance routine to "Blackbird" ("Pack up all my cares and woe, here I go, singing low").
I do remember Evan from the Cleveland Seed. Also Wade, Eric and his sister, Jim A., my oldcomer, Wayne, another oldcomer, John G., Scott, Terri, Patty, LeeAnn, many others.
In Cleveland, I went home with these guys. I still remember how my legs were shaking when I walked into the house on Clague road. I remember one of the guys had made hotdogs or hamburgers on the grill, "specially for me." I remember sitting around the table, I had no idea what to say. I was struggling with myself because the whole thing seemed unreal; do you remember what it was like to be surrounded by a group, and each one has a turn telling their story, each one 'badder' then the next ("I did quaaludes, darvon, darvocet, coke, pot and alcohol, and I was days from trying heroin, and I just know, I was on my way to prison 'cause I was already selling drugs,") etc. etc. And then I'd say something, and immediately someone would say, "I can relate to that," and take off with their story. All this for hours and hours and with so much intensity, the conversation never flagging and everyone staring at you and telling you they loved you, to top it all off. Part of the indoctrination.
Anyway, I'd love to hear from some other Cleveland/Ft. Lauderdale people. I see that a lot of people read this, lurking I guess.
I get the feeling that some people are still under the influence of Art. Whatever! Tell your story people. Who cares if you spent some time in an obscure 1970s mind control experiment decades ago! Are you running for Congress? Mitch, Jim, Ginger, Cookie, and all of you I spent those years with, hope you are well. We were all kids just trying to make sense of a crazy world, looking for leadership. It wasn't the Hitler youth, it just used some of the same techniques!
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I am not afraid, despite my user name. My real name is Amy Brandt. I was put into the cleveland seed when I was twelve, I had smoked pot but never been high. It took me about nine months to graduate after which I never went back. Evan was in there after me, I think, I never knew him but he went to the same school as I did. It sounds like you came in quite a bit after I graduated cause I was long gone when the seed left town. I was so happy it was gone!
A sibling following an older seedling sibling into the program, regardless of, lack of drug use, became an increasingly common story during the time I was there. I don't know, but I can't imagine there was ever such thing as turning a possible seedling away, "sorry, your not a druggy you don't need this." Never everybody needed it!
Really nice to read posts from someone that was in Cleveland like me.
I remember that building too. Seems so appropriate that it once was an orphanage. I remember that there were so many room, the place had about ten times more space than they needed. In all the time I was there I was still being taken into some new room or other for a rap. A room that I had somehow never seen before. I think it added to my sense of powerlessness-I never even knew the building.
I always wondered; If they had so much room why newcomers didn't just stay there at night, Why did they choose such an enormous building, because they expected to fill it or because it was so fortress like?
amy
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thank you soooo much - i was there and I left in the after being vicously told off in a chicks rap- I decided I had finally had enough- The crazy thing is we all perpetuated the same lies to each other and ourselves. It was one endless cycle we kept ourselves in check nad repressed emotionally, intellectually and ofcourse sexually by condemning each other to the same lives of monotany. What torture it must have been for the guys to watch us in our bikinis[homemade!!!] playing hours of football on the beach- I actually liked playing, though e always had to let Art win- and i had to stop short of sacking him evry game while bob would get pummled by Patty... Okay - so did cookie end up back on the front row that must have been after I left.. I remember roger leaving- that really threw me. John Perloff married Cindy not Kathy{KP} she ran away as well. Did Nona Z. return she was my oldcomer and i was crushed when she left. I also lived with ginger she ws amazingly funny - I know everyone you mentioned. Mr. Gator-
I hope you get my seperate email....
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Got it! Good to hear from you. I seem to be having trouble with my email today though, so if you don't get anything today send me a new message - I really want to compare notes on our experience off-line.
But I just have to say, the post above really brings back so many thoughts and feelings. It was a monotonous, controlled life, but the people, like you said, were so great. So we were living a lie but it seemed for a while like the compromises were worth it - just like anything else in life you sometimes choose to overlook things or smooth over the rough spots - but the price was too great for me and you too. I seem to remember you getting told off about something - I remember you as kind of an independent person - and I seem to have this memory of you looking upset. I've lost the memory of you leaving though, and I forgot that Roger had left - he was a great guy. Didn't it suck to have people you care about, telling you they love you, also spouting bullshit about 'getting into your head' if you had an independent thought or 'take your head out of the gutter' if you were attracted to someone? Sometimes I'd think, what are we, Amish or something?
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I really enjoy dropping in here and reading about all those bitter-sweet days. I was a newcomer at the same time as Cookie. Wow! She was started over? I remember Nona too. Seemed very likable. I shared an apartment with Jim Helm. Cleveland's right, he was a great guy.
I think most cult-like groups start out with good intentions. I don't think Art started out with the idea of harming anyone. Many leaders simply fall for the temptation of all of the hero-worship. Ego takes over. That was so apparent with Art, I remember noting it even when I was on my program. It was like we were supposed to ignore his ego trip. To me, the Seed was both good and bad. Some of their core AA- inspired ideas were valid and helpful. I've been able to pick and choose what was beneficial and discard the rest. This picking and choosing was condemned by staff though.
The prohibition regarding sex and playing games with chicks...that whole mindset really stunted my emotional growth for several years though. I remember Hank saying that wet-dreams were OK...hell, how could you stop them?...but that sexual fantasies was a no-no. After graduating my program I remember telling a couple of girls that I couldn't have anything to do with them...because they had smoked pot a few times in the past. It was years before I regained some measure of confidence with the opposite sex.
A few months into my program I started to see the flaws and became very disillusioned. But having the court-ordered choice between staying at the seed or going (back) to prison, I tried my best to put up a good front. The only effect this had was that I virtually stopped relating in group. I was always afraid that I would be discovered. I can relate to Greg's feelings about graduating the program too. It was a great relief to be free. I think I went back 2 or 3 times to meetings after graduation. My time at the lauderdale seed was one of the most unhappy periods of my life. It was worse than prison in some ways. At least jail only holds your body.
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Marshall, I could have almost wrote that myself. Spot on in my opinion except I still fail to find anything of value in my seed experience.
I also don't think Art started out thinking he would end up being a cult leader, nor do I believe for a minute his initial intention was to hurt anyone.
However people did get hurt including me and many others I know. And for those hurt the pain was deep and wounding and lasted for years.
I also had problems coming to terms with my sexuality after the Seed. I had hit puberty and had my first ejaculation during a ahem... nightime episode...after coming home and didn't even know how to deal with it. I was so screwed up with all the phony moralizing about sex and not allowed to even look at girls. Also, Boys rap (really sexual confession rap) was terrifying for me, especially when they would stand up the virgin boys and berate the hell out of them and call them sissys and tell them they would be raped in the ass in jail, ad nausem. I was scared shitless this was going to happen to me and always tried to meld into the group and not get called on. These raps were the worse of the worse for me and to this day can recall specific instances of terror watching others being systemically destroyed in boys rap. Being taunted at school during this time was also very hurtfull to me as my ego was trying to develop and I was being forced to push down all my natural feelings and attractions for those "druggie" and "dry druggie" girls that were fortunate enough to have escaped the massive tentacles the Seed possessed at the time. This combined with opposing unhealthy sexual attitudes of both my mother and father left me confused about where I stood, but I def wanted to get laid in the worst of ways!
It took me years to finally come to terms with
all the unhealthy and unnatural cultic versions of sex and sexuality I was taught in that steaming warehouse that reeked of teenage sweaty bodies...an example being wet dreams were okay but masturbating would get you in trouble. Unreal and unbelievable even to this day when I think back.
Your post is so correct. Also, underlying what you wrote is another point that you made if you read between the lines. Cult groups don't hurt everyone that gets involved but the people that are hurt are often wounded deep. The group psychology always blames the person who is hurt and disowns them, cuts off their "love" (which is completely and totally conditional which makes it nothing but a lie and a tool of the cult). The group also imbeds in this person that they are a failure and worthless without the group and that often becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. Some of this attitude has been displayed, 30 years later, right on this message site.
If nothing else this entire subject is fascinating especially since we were all involved and can now bring our experiences out into the open and discuss it among ourselves.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-10-18 13:35 ][ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-10-18 13:40 ]
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The Cult of the Seed?
The tribal mentality- we were all suppose to rely only on each other, Contact with people outside the seed was limited. Outsiders were viewed with suspicion and could not be trusted. The logic behind this was to learn how to develop our own set of morals and tastes. We were too weak to face the pressures of acceptance on our own. (At least on the first part of the program). Once we progressed on the program you were allowed more contact with the outside world usually though in the presence of another Seed member with more time under their belt. Although once a person graduated we were suppose to be able face the world on our own the mindset remained that all people outside the Seed were to be viewed with suspicion and at a distance including old fiends and family. I found this to be debilitating because this caused a person to become too dependent on the Seed. The Seed became a crutch rather than a support. I remember when contemplating the idea to move back home this created such turmoil in my head I choose not to confront it directly this in turn caused more turmoil coupled with a new found sense of frustration.
The Seed was a world onto itself it became your family your comfort your thoughts and deeds. You were guided by the set norms of acceptable behavior as prescribed by the group. As a result one lost themselves in the ability of what and how they wanted to grow and develop into. This type of conformity retarded and hindered ones growth. I remember listening in raps to some long timers and felt that had missed the point. I can remember thinking is no need to know oneself that well. I must admit this realization did not come to me until I was well past being a graduate and this was the beginning of my desire to leave and have my try at the outside world. As I wrestled with this idea I was indirectly confronted with my own insecurities and lack of esteem or even perhaps my own laziness. People made me feel that there was nothing better than the Seed and leaving would only bring unhappiness which in-turn could lead back into a downward spiral of ones accomplishments. Where would I find the Strength to survive and prosper? This was the very reason I should have left the Seed and forced myself to do some real growing.
Another thing practiced to discourage people from leaving is once a person left very rarely were they spoken of again. Sometimes a staff member would talk to the people most directly affected by the person?s leaving and explained how they had lost sight of what was really important and had acted impulsively and selfishly. When someone wanted to have a discussion with a staff member about venturing out in the ?real world? They tried to talk you out of it either by killing you with kindness or a very strong confrontation. One mechanism used was to make you feel like an ingrate and that you were turning your back on everything the Seed had done for you. Was the point of the program not to make a person strong and independent? (In my case I never had the balls to confront Staff). The pressure seemed only to grow on myself while I wrestled with these issues especially when one tried to hide and mask these frustrations from the group and from their Seed friends.
In the end this lack of honesty on my part only lead to the eventually blow out I had with staff which lead to my expulsion from the group. I could not have been happier when this happened. I felt like a great burden had been lifted from my shoulders. The Seed had forgotten about the desire of freewill, which lives deep with-in a person. This freewill is what drives us and causes us to try new things to succeed and to fail but above all to grow. They should have been more secure in what they taught and had more confidence that their people had changed for the better.
It is ironic to me that the Seed which had been formed to make people strong and self-reliant, had fallen victim to their own weakness and insecurities. Many of the long timers should have taken a chance in the world instead of hiding from the world at the Seed while they projected their own insecurities onto everyone else. This I believe was the beginning of what many people see as the cultic mind-set of the Seed. Was the Seed a true cult? To a degree it did get perverted somewhat from its original intent however, the main objective still remained true and strong which, was to get people straight.
So rest assured Ginger, Gregg the Seed is gone for good and no one from the old core group has any desire to start a new Seed. I must admit it gave me much satisfaction to watch all the old timers now have to fight the same battles we had to fight once we decided to walk out those doors for good.
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On 2004-10-18 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
The Seed was a world onto itself it became your family your comfort your thoughts and deeds. You were guided by the set norms of acceptable behavior as prescribed by the group. As a result one lost themselves in the ability of what and how they wanted to grow and develop into. This type of conformity retarded and hindered ones growth. I remember listening in raps to some long timers and felt that had missed the point. I can remember thinking is no need to know oneself that well. I must admit this realization did not come to me until I was well past being a graduate and this was the beginning of my desire to leave and have my try at the outside world. As I wrestled with this idea I was indirectly confronted with my own insecurities and lack of esteem or even perhaps my own laziness. People made me feel that there was nothing better than the Seed and leaving would only bring unhappiness which in-turn could lead back into a downward spiral of ones accomplishments. Where would I find the Strength to survive and prosper? This was the very reason I should have left the Seed and forced myself to do some real growing.
Another thing practiced to discourage people from leaving is once a person left very rarely were they spoken of again. Sometimes a staff member would talk to the people most directly affected by the person?s leaving and explained how they had lost sight of what was really important and had acted impulsively and selfishly. When someone wanted to have a discussion with a staff member about venturing out in the ?real world? They tried to talk you out of it either by killing you with kindness or a very strong confrontation. One mechanism used was to make you feel like an ingrate and that you were turning your back on everything the Seed had done for you. Was the point of the program not to make a person strong and independent? (In my case I never had the balls to confront Staff). The pressure seemed only to grow on myself while I wrestled with these issues especially when one tried to hide and mask these frustrations from the group and from their Seed friends.
In the end this lack of honesty on my part only lead to the eventually blow out I had with staff which lead to my expulsion from the group. I could not have been happier when this happened. I felt like a great burden had been lifted from my shoulders. The Seed had forgotten about the desire of freewill, which lives deep with-in a person. This freewill is what drives us and causes us to try new things to succeed and to fail but above all to grow. They should have been more secure in what they taught and had more confidence that their people had changed for the better.
It is ironic to me that the Seed which had been formed to make people strong and self-reliant, had fallen victim to their own weakness and insecurities. Many of the long timers should have taken a chance in the world instead of hiding from the world at the Seed while they projected their own insecurities onto everyone else. This I believe was the beginning of what many people see as the cultic mind-set of the Seed. Was the Seed a true cult? To a degree it did get perverted somewhat from its original intent however, the main objective still remained true and strong which, was to get people straight.
So rest assured Ginger, Gregg the Seed is gone for good and no one from the old core group has any desire to start a new Seed. I must admit it gave me much satisfaction to watch all the old timers now have to fight the same battles we had to fight once we decided to walk out those doors for good.
"
Great post, very insightfull.
Was the seed a true cult you ask....
My answer is yes, a very strong cult on almost every key indicator of what makes a cult.
Whether the Seed is "gone" or not doesn't really concern me personally because they can't affect me. I have not feared Art Barker since about the age of 16 when I ran away from my family and the program in St Pete Florida vowing that they would have to kill me or jail me because I was never going back in. I paid a tremendous price for rejecting the program but it was/is well worth it.
I have heard rumour of a place in miami where some of these Seed insiders claim people are "getting straight" and I know that many of them worked on a project in Davie recently that is a long term residential drug treatment center, surprisingly christian based. was the founder in the Seed? My guess would be yes.
The Seed modalities have continued on and persist to this day thru Seed offshoots. Straight Inc was started by a handfull of Seed parents and 6 or 7 Lakewood High Seed Graduates using seed techniques in the old St pete seed building when the seed left.Straight grew into the largest rehab in america but times were changing and people started taking the wacky stories at face value. As Straight, Inc. shut down thruout the nation due to lawsuits, abuse allegations and bad press, Offshoot programs sprang up and branches renamed and restaffed still using the Seed techniques.
I recently went to an open meeting at one such place and watched the open mike confessions, watched them motivate, yell I'm coming home to applause, sing seed songs, witness someone get yelled at on open mike by his parents and saw the three signs on the wall and the seven steps. I even got to observe a bit of a rap session before open meeting.
Even as the Seed was gearing down in the mid 70s, other programs using Arts tweaked synanon techniques were springing up. Some of the names of these programs were LIFE, Growing Together, Kids, SAFE...to name a few. All linearly connected to the Seed and using identical or slightly modified modality only lacking in Art's massive ego, bomber jacket, cigarrete holder and captain's hat.
Still further, the "teen help industry" rose up like a phoenix from the broken spirits of thousands of "helped" kids using synanon style treatment and now has grown like a monster. You can now have your kid kidpnapped by professional thugs and be shipped half way across the world to be "helped" while the authorities look the other way. You child will be isolated, his will broken, ego crushed and rebuilt in the image of this "treatment center". They will be told that they would be deadinsaneinjail without the program and many will believe it for a time, some for the rest of their lives. Lawuit after lawsuit, death, suicide and abuse has been alleged and confirmed at these "rehabs" but the parents and some graduates claim that their lives were saved while others are broken and shattered by the experience.
No, you are wrong anon, the Seed lives on thru copycat programs and thru synanon treatment centers thruout the world. That small tight group in Ft Lauderdale really isn't my concern as much as the entire youth treatment industry that uses similar modalities and abuses kids every day across the united states and the world. This problem will not be solved overnight but with good people speaking the truth change can occur. Call me idealistic but I believe that just speaking the truth changes things.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-10-18 16:45 ]
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On 2004-10-18 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
This I believe was the beginning of what many people see as the cultic mind-set of the Seed. Was the Seed a true cult? To a degree it did get perverted somewhat from its original intent however, the main objective still remained true and strong which, was to get people straight.
"
intent or direction doesn't exclude an exclusive group from cult status.
Remember, synanon started out as a drug rehab. Narconon is an offshoot of scientology.
I know you have insinuated before that the purpose of the group somehow rescued it from being a cult, but a "higher purpose" is always an element of a cult combined with some mystical element. Ours was a special gift of awareness that only we had (supposedly). Art started calling seedlings "homo superior" "the seed army" and other exclusive things.
Do a little research on cults and critically apply the model to the Seed and I think you may understand a little better.
The Seed is listed by Robert Lifton, the worlds foremost expert on cults, as a cult.
The Seed spinoff SAFE which uses almost identical technique was described in a Miami news cast as a destructive mind cult by Steve Hassin, international known cult expert.
I will post some signs of cults in below this post for discussion.
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THE PURPOSES AND TACTICS OF COERCIVE PERSUASION
Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.
The essential strategy used by those operating such programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate numerous coercive persuasion tactics over CONTINUOUS PERIODS OF TIME. There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.
TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.
TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)
TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.
TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.
TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.
TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.
TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).
Another set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems. If most of Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform is being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult. These eight points follow:
Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought Reform
1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. "Come out and be separate!"
2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the
group through a profound encounter / experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group.
3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or
personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed."
4. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders.
5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.
6. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract
and narrow parameters of the group's doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a "black and white" mentality. Loaded terms and clichés prejudice thinking.
7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine.
8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.
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On 2004-10-18 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
So rest assured Ginger, Gregg the Seed is gone for good and no one from the old core group has any desire to start a new Seed. I must admit it gave me much satisfaction to watch all the old timers now have to fight the same battles we had to fight once we decided to walk out those doors for good.
That's what I thought for about 18 years after I settled down back in Pompano. If that were the whole story, it wouldn't be anything of real interest, except to a very few people and I wouldn't go to the trouble of publishing to the net about it.
I know The Seed, Inc. is pretty much gone except for whatever they might be doing w/ their ecconomic and political capital in So. Florida. For example, I wonder what Robert is doing as deputy mayor of Dania; the city in which Port Everglades is located.
But The Seed was not a singular or unique phenomena. It was a small part of something much bigger. Around the same time NIDA was handing millions in expansion funding to Art, they also funded other Synanon based programs accross the country. Phoenix House and Delancy Street were among these. While that was going on, some other Synanon people established private "emotional growth boarding schools" out west. CEDU was one of those. Elan was another. These institutions took some court ordered kids as well as some foster kids from their own states and from other states. Many of these places are still in operation today, some still partially publicly funded and most still taking court ordered kids and adults.
But the mother (fucker) of all of them, in my opinion anyway, was Straight, Inc., which was established by Seed parents and staff in St. Pete around a year after St. Pete Seed shut down. Twelve or thirteen years later, when the wheels finally fell off of that enterprise, they didn't shut down. Some locations changed their names and stayed in the rehab business while the corporation changed it's name to Drug Free America Foundation and it's mission statement to... well, to the spirit and almost the letter of those "we're gonna take over the world" raps.
Here's a little bit about what the founders of Straight, Inc. have been up to over the past 30 years.
DRAFT
A STUDY OF THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE DRUG FREE AMERICA FOUNDATION. INC. (formerly Straight Foundation, Inc.) IN AMERICAN AND INTERNATIONAL DRUG POLICY
http://thestraights.com/reports/dfaf-an ... policy.htm (http://thestraights.com/reports/dfaf-and-drug-policy.htm)
I can accept that there are weird little mind cults. It's tragic for some people who get squashed by them, but not a matter of broad interest. That these same sadistic lunatics are writing domestic and international policy for America, that I cannot accept quietly. I want people to move on from shrugging and saying, rhetorically, "those drug warriors must be crazy" to understanding just how bug all crazy and wreckless they really are.
No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles
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Just for the record the Seed never condoned or had anything to do with Straight. The Seed was very much against the formation of Straight or any other rehab that was formed out of the Straight mold.
Straight was a direct result of some over zealot Seed parents that went rogue. I never was witness to any of the alleged atrocities at the Seed that occurred on a daily basis at Straight. After reading some of the Posts from Straight survivors I don't think I would have accomplished much at Straight other than to build a good healthy resentment toward Straight.
Straight claims in the beginning to be born from the Seed but a much closer look reveals many differences and a much more violent approached to how people were handled. I can only speak from my own experience the Seed overall at least for me did more good than bad.
I know it will be argued that this is a mute point and the end result was still the same. The Seed still spawned the Straight program. Speaking only for myself and again I will emphasis with no personal experience with the Straight program. It seems to me that the Straights were born from the egotism and greed of the Sembler?s who used Straight for their own self-promotion with no regard toward the lives they were affecting. The Assembler?s justified this by claiming to have saved the lives of many children. The Sembler?s loosely used the Seed as a mold but taking all the bad points of the Seed with very few of the good points. This is why the Seed was so against the formation of Straight or any other rehab claiming to be based on Seed practices.
As per Ginger ?Ginger I feel for you?. No one should be forced to go through what you went through. Although it may seem that we sometimes be on the opposing ends of this Forum. I can understand your pain and anger. My heart does go out to you.
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that isn't the only reason the Seed was against it. It trampled on Art's private little kindom to have other Seed type rehabs out there. Straight was a direct copy of the seed right down to the placement of the chairs, the hours, the rap sessions, the steps, everything.
The end result was the same, many harmed people and some people that claimed it saved their lives. Many people abused and many people saying abuse never happened.
Different people responding to the same cultic thought reform practices, one under a cult leader and the other under a business model.
In other words, no major difference.
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On 2004-10-19 14:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"that isn't the only reason the Seed was against it. It trampled on Art's private little kindom to have other Seed type rehabs out there.
I think that's probably true. As angry as I still am about the whole thing, I don't think Art ever allowed himself to entertain the notion that he was doing anything but good. Remember all the rants against shrinks and schoolpeople (those who didn't sing The Seed's praises, anyway) and other, traditional, rehabs? Then when they set the consent form requirement on his federal funding, he just couldn't bring himself to admit that The Seed was experimental and dangerous.
Well Straight, Inc. fanagled a line into that same funding source. I think Wes has it documented somewhere on thestraights.com. Basically, NIDA ran the money through LEAA and LEAA made grants to Straight.
In other words, no major difference.
No, I wouldn't say there were no major differences. It was essentially the same program and culture.
Straight was more Izod Lacross and less tye-dye. Straight was pro-religion where The Seed was athiest. The only thing we were allowed to read on 2nd phase was The Bible. Oh yeah, the phases were numbered instead of named. But they were the same.
You could get into some deep shit by walking into group or being seen anywhere by another Straightling (and there were always some close by) for failing to maintain a blithe smile on your face. "Your face is hard, just like when you were on front row."
They had a much better business model. Instead of anchoring on a cultive personality, they operated under a corporate plan. That's just a reflection of Sembler's expertise and culture, but it is a major, very important difference.
Essentially, Art had a pipe dream wherein he played the superhero while Sembler had the expertise and the means to actually garner serious ecconomic and political influence.
I won't say Sembler was in it just for the money and accolades because his granson wound up in one of the programs formerly known as Straight in either Detroit or Cincinatti (can't remember offhand) just a couple of years ago. I'm sure these people are at least as sincerely convinced in the rightness of what they're doing as Art ever was. Maybe more.
I think there's a misconception about the physical violence at Straight. While I'm pretty sure it was more common than at The Seed, it was by no means as rampant as people seem to think. Remember that Straight was open for around 16 years w/ over 20 locations at it's peak. Those out of control incidents where people got physically injured or tossed around stick in people's minds because that's something anybody can understand. The entire two years I was in Straight, I was only restrained once and marathoned once for around 2 hours. I'm not at all sure that it was significantly more physical or violent than The Seed, though I'm sure we never played no damned softball!
The similarities are far more significant. I was able to watch this going on, even though I didn't fully appreciate what I was seeing till years later, because I already knew the game. So it didn't shock or bother me when my parents stood up and delivered their lines at open meeting. I knew already that my mother was ashamed of me, angry with me and didn't want me back home till I (was broken) started getting straight. And I knew just as certainly that my dad didn't really feel that way, even though he said that he did.
But to the real virgins? The little girl who had smoked pot one time and insisted that she really wasn't a druggie and that she'd be gone after her "two week evaluation" (very fucking funny, huh)? She was absolutely crushed. That was the last thing she had expected to hear from her doting father. You could almost hear her heart break. That's what happened to my very first newcomer. And I was sorely tempted to fill her in a little bit, she was in so much pain! But I knew also that the Program is very, very effective and that, if I took her into my confidence, she might very well have an attack of concience weeks or months later and turn me in.
That's the kind of thing that sticks w/ you; that betrayal, turning family against each other, that isolation in a crowd, pretended love and acceptance... the snitch culture. Those aspects of the Program were carried though unchanged.
But here's something I've wondered about. Awhile back, somone asked me if I was the 'cute little blond kid' at open meetings. I was. And I've often wondered what you guys thought about that. I vaguely remember overhearing conversations among the adults, like maybe my grown brothers, about how messed up it was to take a little kid to open meetings and those endless, smoke filled coffee klatches at Denny's afterward. Didn't you guys think it might be a little messed up? Or did you think like my mom did; that I was one lucky kid to be getting the "gift" of The Seed right from the start?
What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Ginger do you think that Sembler might of had a hidden agenda?
Did he try to influence the Straightlings and mold them into mindless followers for his political gain? Kind of like the Hitler youth movement that occurred in Germany in the 1930's.
Do you think Art Baker had a similar agenda?
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I actually do think there's a legitimate comparison to be made between the drug war and other, more infamous government/social cleansing programs. And both Art and the Semblers, not to mention a good many others, are or have been dedicated to this agenda.
But it's not a hidden or secret agenda. They're right out in the open with it. Remember the "pot-smoking = terrorism" ONDCP ad campaign that came out during the Super Bowl 2002? Or, prior, under Clinton's admin, drug czar, Barry McCaffrey using federal demand reduction funds to get script writers to slip a little more propaganda into your nightly entertainment? Did you catch any of the news in around... 2000 or so, when Sen Bill McCullum was pushing for field tests in Florida of bioengineered fungus designed to attack marijuana, cocaine and poppies?
I'm not asking rhetorically. All of these stories got significant ink in the press in their time. But drug policy has been an interest of mine since a good many years before I started looking into details about The Program. So I don't know if you would have even noticed or discussed these kinds of stories or not.
But yes, I do think it's probably not a coincidence that TOUGHLOVE® groups started sprining up in Australia just after Büsh I sent Sembler there as ambassador or that the first ever private prison corporation was established in Italy just after Büsh II sent him there as ambassador.
More recently, Congress has increased the limit on the number of military personnel and 'advisors' allowed on the ground in Colombia. Now, we've been involved in Colombia's civil war for a very long time already. But some of the principle people in the Drug Free America Foundation (DFAF) have, in the last couple of years, set up the Drug Prevention Network of the Americas (DPNA) and, shaw nuff, now we're seeing a marked increase in US involvement there.
What do you think these people are about? There is something feeble and contemptible about a man who cannot face life without the help of comfortable myths.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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Ginger or Gregg with your experience in dealing with Seed Survivors and Straight Survivors what kind of psychological damaged have you seen in these people? What are some of the symptoms?
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Well, I don't know if I want to comment on individuals' and their maladies. But you can read some of the posts on topics like OCD and PTSD and see what people have to say about themselves.
War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
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Initally I had many problems centered around proper socializing, anger and mistrust, feelings or betrayal and worthlessness. I eventually worked thru these issues.
These days, the only real lingering after-affect is a 30 year adversion to sitting in any group seperated by a isle with a speaker at the front. I simply get creeped out at speaking engagements, church, or any other group set up in that format. I normally excuse myself and wait in the hall or stand at the back of the group..anything not to feel trapped in that setting.
Others I know have carried around other problems but I won't speak for them.