Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Kathy on November 26, 2003, 04:24:00 PM
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Does anyone have any concrete evidence on how "The Seed" began?
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You must already know that it was the offspring of SYNANON.
Flow Chart
[ This Message was edited by: Froderik13 on 2003-11-26 19:31 ]
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Yes, I know that Robert DuPont said that The Seed's methods were based on a synanon from Synanon. But that is not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for specifics and concrete evidence of how it actually began. Was Art in the Synanon? If so, is there evidence of this? Or was he recruited by someone else (say in the gov't) to start and experimental rehab. I need details. Do you know what I mean?
Thanks, Kathy
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I figured as much, but some time went by and I thought "What the hell, I'll post the link to the flow chart.." I figured you were most likely up to speed with this, but wasn't sure..as far as specifics, you'll have to consult the 'experts' from Florida on that one I guess. I have no idea. Ginger? GregFL?
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Greg might know more than I do. But, as far as I know, it's sort of a mystery. The legend goes that Art started out living on an unseaworthy yacht docked at the Playboy Club, where he did a $20 stand up gig once a month. I don't know of any documentation, other than Art quoted in the local press. Somewhere on his site, Wes has a copy of a NIDA grant application. But that was a year or more after The Seed's founding.
May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
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Kathy, currently all we have is self serving statements art made in the press. we all know his techniques came from the synanon, but Art last year refused to acknowledge any connection to any other program. He always insisted they were his techniques melded with the aa Techniques.
We know better...
Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
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Hey Greg!
Thanks for the info. When you say "last year he refused to acknowledge..." Did you talk to him? Wow.
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No, a friend of mine who was in the seed and now a reporter had lunch with him.
There are two kinds of people; those who's lives have been somehow touched by harsh tragedy and those you don't know very well.
-- Ginger Warbis
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I went to the seed back in 1970ish when it was a small house in Fort Laudadale, they searved free meals which at the time attracted a lot of young teenagers ,and art some of lot of the meetings and he told us over and over he took the basic steps from AA FROM WHAT I REMEMBER HE WAS ONCE A STAND UP COMIC. . HE ACTUALLY DEVELOPE THE SEED STLYE IN THAT SMALL HOUSE. HIS
YOUNG WIFE AT THE TIME HANDLE THE OFFICE AFFAIRS. SIGNING PEOPLE UP FOR
THE PROGRAM. HOW IS ART BARKER? I ALWAYS THINK OF HIM, HE REALLY DID SAVE MY LIFE. I HOPE HE IS ALIVE AND HEALTHY. I ALSO STAYED WITH THE SEED
WHEN THEY MOVED TO A BIGGER HOUSE ON FEDRAL HIGHWAY OR A1A I CAN'T REMEMBER, BEFORE WE ENDED UP ON STATE RD 84 IN A LARGER WAREHOUSE. I HAVE A LOT OF MEMORIES AND ACTUALLY KEEP IN TOUCH WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE FROM THE EARLIER DAYS.
I REMEMBER SOME REALLY GREAT PEOPLE THAT RELLY MADE A DIFFERENCE. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE FROM THAT TIME. MY NAME IS RICHARD FROST MY EMAIL IS [email protected]
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Welcome Richard. You are one of the few we have heard of from the very early days. The Seed actually started in Miami. I didn't know about a house and/or a small place on Federal Hwy...tell us more!!!
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My name was Ginger McNulty. You almost have to remember me, though I don't think I remember you by name. I remember 1315 Andrews Ave and SR. 84. I was Jim, Thom and Jack's little sister. Jim married Pam Orcutt. I was the little blond girl choking on the cloud of tobacco smoke every Friday night at Open meeting and afterward, falling asleep in a back booth at Denny's.
Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
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Gregfl,
It has been so many years ago,
probably 1971 . i was 16 or 17
so my memory of the address of this small house is foggy. Art may have started something in miami but the root of the seed started at this house in ft lauderdale
there were probaby 15 to 30 people at the time. we moved to a bigger place on A1A or federal highway? near state road 84 where i left for about a year and when i came back they had moved to this big gated warehouse on state rd 84 below 441. it was an isolated area with lot a woods around it. it had grown to several hundred or more people.
it had become a big think in south florida the drug problem was sevre at the time and I believe Art was in the process of starting a seed in miami. Thats how i remember it, but i will talk with old friends and come up with more facts. i have lived in california for the last 27 years so i really can't remember addresses.
The great part about the earliest days is we really got to know Art Barker one on one. He was was quite the character. I sure would like to know how he is doing. DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW I CAN GET IN CONTACT WITH ART BARKER. JUST TO SAY THANKS.
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Art Barker is a sickly old man now with a neurological disorder, but he is still married to Shelly. He lives in the same house donated by Seed parents in about 1972 or so.
Art Barker surrounds himself with the staff members/inner circle cult members that he entrusted for so many years, and they remain tight. I do not have his address, but a google search on his name and address will help you if you wish to write him a letter.
I personally would also like to talk to him but I think our conversations would take on decidly different directions.
Please give us a story from the early days. Did he really operate an open house with free food for teenagers? The Moonies used to do that when I was in college to recruit. Very very intersting...
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Here you go...
BARKER,ART & SHELLY
Mailing Address
1314 E LAS OLAS BLVD #1343
FT LAUDERDALE FL 33301
If you wish to write him a letter. Better hurry he is not in good health last I heard.
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GINGER,
I CERTAINLY REMEMBER THE MCNULTY NAME, DID YOU GO TO THE SMALL HOUSE AS WELL THE ONE BEFORE ST ANDREWS, I CAN'T REMEMBER THE ADDRESS. DO YOU STILL KEEP IN TOUCH WITH SOME OF THE OTHER MEMBERS.
WHERE YOU ON STAFF? I DID LEAVE AND COME BACK COUPLE OF TIMES BEFORE I PUT IN A COUPLE OF YEARS A SOBRIETY AT THE STATE RD 84 SEED WHEN THEY FIRST GOT THERE AROUND 1973. I HAVE ALOT OF
FOND MEMORIES OF THE PLACE AND OF CAUSE ALOT OF PAIN TO GET THROUGH
SOME OFTHAT STINKING THINKING.
I REMEMBER SOME GREAT PEOPLE, LIBBY, SUZY, SHELLY ,JOHN , I STILL KEEP SOMEWHAT IN TOUCH WITH SEVERAL OLD SEEDLINGS EVEN THOUGH I LIVE IN CA
GINGER,
FEEL FREE TO EMAIL
REGARDS,
RICHARD FROST
GregFL,
thanks for Art's address, i will send a letter tommorrow.
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Your welcome. Now do me two favors.
1) take your cap locks off.
2) post us a story from the old days in the house where Art used to give out free food.
Thanks in advance
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Sorry, Richard, I don't have a lot of good memories from those days. I wasn't in group at The Seed. I was just a little kid. My older brothers and one of my sisters were in group at various timese between around `71 and maybe `78 or so. What I remember is that our house was a great place to be a kid. Lots of people coming around to visit all the time. Like any family, we had our rough edges, but generally our house was a hub for my older brothers and sisters' social circles.
All that came to a screetching halt when my brothers first went into The Seed. Nobody came around. Our whole lives revolved around The Seed. After my sister went in and my mother tried to recruit all of her friends parents (and everyone else in the neighborhood) none of the other kids in the neighborhood were allowed to play w/ me. I lost what few friendships I had and spent the rest of my preadolescance completely socially isolated.
No matter how hard I tried to please my mom and be the perfect little Seedling, it became clear by the time I was around 14 that it wasn't going to work. She was going to put me in The Seed anyway. So I ran from home looking for someplace to hide out for 4 years till I could come of age. My sister turned me in when I turned up at her door in Massechusetts. For whatever reason, I don't go there. Instead, I went to Straight, Inc. in Sarasota, which had been set up by former Seed parents and staff after The Seed in St. Pete had been shut down.
I haven't stayed in touch w/ anybody from those days. I don't even talk to the McNultys anymore. See, they all either completed the program or continue to center their lives on stepcraft. I never did. I split for the final time when I was almost 18 and picked up where I left off getting myself established independent of the Program. That's the unforgivable sin.
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
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It is so fascinating reading the different perceptions and reactions people have to their memories of the Seed.
I particularly find fascinating those that hero worship Art Barker. To me during my program I despised him and feared him, yet was forced to sing love songs to him.
I felt like what I was, a prisoner in a cool-aide love cult struggling to survive, always casting an eye to the day I could get far away from that place. I remember Art coming into group,chain smoking, talking 100 miles an hour, spewing venom at his enemies, taking mini-surveys, cracking stupid fucking jokes and pretending like he was a big shot actor. What a pompous egotistical jerk he was.It was a wonder someone didn't beat the shit out of his short little ass.
Richard, maybe the early days were different, but the Seed St Pete had a decidedly hard edge to it.
Still waiting for your stories....
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-05-03 08:03 ]
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BTW, I think this is a better mailing address...
BARKER,ART & SHELLY
1509 NE 6TH ST
FORT LAUDERDALE FL 33304-2916
Send your cards and letters.
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the first house before SR84 was
pretty much open house you came to meetings and enjoyed everyone, but when i came back in 73 to SR84 it was definitly 6 months of hell, i was basically pretty much a street kid in those days, i did not have parents to force to to go. Art took me in unconditionally,
never expecting any money, maybe because i
was part of the earliest seed days. I actually signed myself in. It definitly was not easy sittting in those hard chairs from early in the morning till late at night, eating those peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but i was so damaged that I needed that sort of boot camp to survice, some real love would have been better, but iIhad no other choices..I tried to escape several times when things got rough and even got away once, but I went home to my family situation and realized the seed was a better solution. When you sign yourslf into the seed it is the same as your parents signing you in, you can't leave until you
complete the program. Everybody I knew outside the seed hated it., but whats that old saying, any love is better then no love at all..
The seed definitly set me on the right track,
after a couple of years of being clean i went back out for another decade in california of all places. But I now have 18 years of sobriety
and it was from the seed that was planted when i young, it all came back to me, well yes I was basically brainwashed., but with some very important steps, and some bad songs "ZIPPY DO DA ZIPPY DAY" I can look back and see the good in it all, It was an experience i will never forget. Art even asked me to join the staff and they were going to help me go to art school. I turned him down, i guess i needed to make my own way at the time.
Rchard
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GREG,
IS THIS YOUR ADDRESS FOR ART
REALLY HIS ADDRESS, I AM CONFUSED?
SOMEONE ELSE SENT ANOTHER ADDRESS
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That is his home address. The other address is a building he owns.
And please....your cap locks.
On the internet, all caps is considered yelling.
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Thanks Richard. More about this house. It seems that maybe the seed evolved into something different than it started out as...
As you suggest, when you came back it was much different.
How very interesting. Please tell us more about the Seed while it was in the house. Who was there? What were the raps like then? etc, etc.
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The small house was more like AA meetings,it was lke a long living room with about 20 to 30 chairs, art had his own office and shelly had ext to his she was more like a receptionist. we did a lot of sharing and people could raise there hand and bust someone on there shit. I don;t remember parents taking people home at the time we came to meetings on our own. i am sure it did exist but on a very small scale. Somehow i do remember a toilet seat use around peoples heads when they were coming down on them.
I remember people making suggestions that i should cut my hair, but is was not mandatory
yet. there was a small record player there and we used to listen to records, rock and roll. i actually witness a beautiful small wedding there with one of the staff members. It was really a very loving place. Arts wife Shelly looked like a young flower chid (long dark brown hair) backt hem, i remember she said she was 29 at the time and she looked 17 and I was really surprised she was married to Art.
Art looked like her father.. I remember a staff member named marlene, i think that was her name, she came from new york, she was one of the best staff people ever, she was kind and beautiful and about 24 , she also had a small little girl . I think Art was helping her get her child back. Does anyone remember the toliet seat? they would have dinners cooked for the locals, the basic coffee and cookie, donut thing , sandwiches. I remember a one older guy there that was more of an alcoholic, actually,
i do vaguely remember Art talking about holding his first meetings on his yacht.
It is so many years ago, everything is vague,
except for SR84 everything there was drilled into me.
richard
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My dumped two of my sisters and me in the Seed on SR84 in the summer of '72. My older sister went to the one on Andrews' Avenue. I remember the toilet seet, I also remember them putting a sign around my neck when I wasn't compliant. Before I went into the Seed, I had never done any drugs, so I learned a lot there-which ones to do, which ones not to do, how to do them. The food was atrocious and I loved kitchen duty rather than sitting in those smoked filled, hot, hot, summer meetings where they wouldn't let you drink enough water. After two months of denying drug use, I finally made up a history, just so they would let me go home. What a cluster f--k that place was-it was so inhuman.
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I was involved with the seed since the 60's with family members & knew Art Barker well. Curious to hear your thoughts. Those of us involved/brainwashed long term...what kind of impact do you think that had on a person...was it true sobriety as described in AA or lacking.
Very curious to learn more about it.
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Art was involved with AA & was Jackie Gleason & Art Carney's sponsor until he left AA saying "they were a bunch of cold pricks & he wanted to be a nice person". Very curious to learn more about my roots that were tainted back then.
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Welcome to the seed discussion forum. I visited the sr 84 location while I was a seed oldcomer and also drove by it many times after graduating and living in ft lauderdale. A few time I yelled "the seed sucks" As I drove by, half scared, half beligerent as driving by.
Many years gone by. What are your impressions of the long term affects of your involvement in the Seed cult?
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Did you ever stop to think why Lybbi is so heavy into dog training...still controlling behavior of trapped spiritual beings...she controls their food, punishes them, withholds love/attention until the "appropriate" behavior is exhibited. But it's not considered abuse of children now. Poor puppies.
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I was in the Seed in early 70's when it was on hwy 84 in the old blimp hanger. I think it was about a year before someone gave them a bunch of broken marble to put together for some of the floors. My Mom was recruited by another Seed parent (typical of cults). I tried pot 1 time but of course no one there believed me. I had to make up stories to fit in and get better. I lost over one year of school which I would never be able to replace. Did I need help? Yep, I was a spoiled brat. Being throw into the SEED was not what I needed. I remember going back one time years later as an oldimer to help out. My finance called there to speak to me (I had a long drive with a very old car) and the last thing I remember was Art coming in and screaming and cursing at me for the gall of my finance to call me there. After I ran to the bathroom crying, Libby came in after me to tell me Art was having a "BAD" day. Art of course was above apologies. NOBODY ever questioned Art, after all he gave his life to save ours...What a bunch of crap! How he suffered for us, how he left his BIG career as a standup comic (later to find out he was washed up literally) to help us poor helpless kids. I can still see him leaving in the limo driven by Robert. He had more money than anyone really knew about. I also believe there were a few other things in his past he was not happy for others to find out.
Being thrown into the Seed was the single worst thing that ever happened to me. I took over a year to graduate, mostly because I couldn't come up with good enough stories to repent about. The only fond memory I had was "skipping" the Seed as an old comer one weekend, was the best afternoon I had had in a year. Ran dirt bikes through the Orbit area all day.
Other than the Seed meetings being horrible, some of the homes I had to stay in were, well let me just say were different.
The Seed and it's followers definitely fit all the criteria of being a cult. You know what they say, "if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...."
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then its a big fat quaking fucking duck
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Greg, please coment on the latest Post;. Differences between Straight and Seed. Thanks.
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Done
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I went to "The Seed" in 1973 at an old abandoned race track in Miami. My father saved my life by putting me in the program. I had been living in Virginia with my Mom and I was getting into a lot of trouble doing drugs, running away. I was on a downward spiral. The Seed helped me to become drug free and also to stay away from the old druggie friends when I returned to Virginia.
The misconception that kids were brainwashed was ludacrious. The Seed and Art Barker should be commended for an excellent program well run. I'm sorry to hear that it is nonexistant. If you want proof of my experience in the program I will be more then happy to elaborate more.
Sincerely,
SBennett-K email address [email protected]
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Greetings SBennett-K!
It is great to hear your positive experience with the Seed & we would like to hear more about your time there. As you read the threads of this forum, you will probably feel you are in the minority... but not alone.
I too was in a "downward spiral" when I went into the program in '75 & the experience changed the direction of my life.
As far as brainwashing goes.. it is pretty obvious to me & most others that it was central to the program. Be open minded & read of other's experiences & contrast and compare to yours.
Remember----- anyone posting about their experiences with the Seed was in the SAME program as you were, so you should consider their feelings/conclusions as sincere.
Greg[ This Message was edited by: Filobeddoe on 2004-09-04 08:32 ]
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The Seed saved my life as well, and I am forever grateful to Art Barker. Through 71 and 73, I was accepted with open arms and tough love
and my family had no money and I knew many people that were on the program that paid out nothing . If a family could afford it they probably were encouraged to donate. Yes it was tough
at times, but I was incapable of running my own live and the Seed helped me with the basic principles. I always remember the "keep it simple stupid" Does anyone remember that one or am I confusing that with something eles? Anyway that saying still applies to me to this day. I always remember Art saying " There is a little truth to everything, but nothing is all true". He was right on the money . Art should be praised for the good he did, and yes he is a Hero in my book.
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praise away guys. all opinions are encouraged here.
Welcome both of you. Please read thru the sdf and then post us a story on a specific experience you had while at the seed, what location, etc.
Welcome to the SDF!!!!
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On 2004-09-03 22:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went to "The Seed" in 1973 at an old abandoned race track in Miami. My father saved my life by putting me in the program. I had been living in Virginia with my Mom and I was getting into a lot of trouble doing drugs, running away. I was on a downward spiral. The Seed helped me to become drug free and also to stay away from the old druggie friends when I returned to Virginia.
The misconception that kids were brainwashed was ludacrious. The Seed and Art Barker should be commended for an excellent program well run. I'm sorry to hear that it is nonexistant. If you want proof of my experience in the program I will be more then happy to elaborate more.
Sincerely,
SBennett-K email address [email protected]"
ELABORATE PLEASE:
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On 2004-09-03 22:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
My father saved my life by putting me in the program. I had been living in Virginia with my Mom and I was getting into a lot of trouble doing drugs, running away. I was on a downward spiral.
The misconception that kids were brainwashed was ludacrious. "
So tell me, Did every Kid that ran away or did some illegal drug you know that didn't go to the seed Die? Did every kid that went to the seed survive? How can you make such a bold statement that it "saved your life" with no evidence other than a constant drilling of this information into your head while in the program? Interesting that all pro seed supporters seem to spew this very same line....
And you must know how I personally respond to your statement that brainwashing in the Seed was "ludicrious", so lets look at some other comments from other people.....
"Some people call it brainwashing. If that's what it is, then give it to me"."
A seed parent being interviewed by Staff writer Judy MckNight, St Pete Times, Circa 3/73.
Seed uses "the highly refined brainwashing techniques employed by the North Koreans in the early 1950s
Senator Sam J. Ervin Jr., prefacing his report, "Individual rights and the federal role in behavior modification."
"There are indications that a cult of The Seed has developed"
from a House congressional committee staff report on the seed.
speaking of a direct seed descendent copycat program called the SAFE, Inc which uses substantially similar techniques,sings the same songs, follows the same steps and open meeting confessionalls....Internationally known Cult Expert Steve Hassan, author of "breaking the bonds"
"SAFE fits my model of a destructive mind control cult"
and in conclusion.....
"its a form of brainwashing"
Art Barker, speaking of the techniques of the seed, to the Miami Herald 8/19/72
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-07 20:44 ]
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Art should be praised for the good he did
If so, then should he be accountable for the harm he did?
and yes he is a Hero in my book. "
you and I have a different book, have experiences colored by our personal perspectives.
As a side note, I just read an article where Tom Cruise said scientology "really is the shit" and praised L Ron Hubbard. I bet you a dollar he doesn't think he is in a cult......
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This is all so interesting! I can remember in 1974, my mother picked me up from school and said we were going shopping. Next thing I knew I was on State Road 84 and The Seed. The only thing I knew about the seed was that the people from school who went there came back acting very strangely. It seemed the people that were there at the time were non voluntary juveniles like myself or court ordered cases. Shelly and Art were there at the time along with his daughter Suzie Barker. We ate three meals a day which consisted of pb and jelly and the eve meal was bologna and cheese. We went from 10 to 10 and there was even a song which stated that. I can still remember alot of the staff and the "seedlings" as we were referred to. I did not complete the program but did stay active for about
2 years. thanks for the memories.
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About 3 years ago I ran into a Seed kid that was still very active in the group. He told me that the Seed was having a reunion, a couple days later I called the Seed and spoke with staff and basically invited myself to the reunion. When I got to the reunion I felt very nervous and strange because I did not leave the Seed on the best of terms. As I walked into the hotel I was made to feel very welcomed and loved saw a bunch of the staff and people that stayed for years after they graduated. People were very happy to see me and I felt almost euphoric. As I was sitting at the table talking to one of my old roommates I felt someone's hand on my shoulder as I turned around I found myself looking at Shelly. She had a big welcoming smile on her face and said, "You're not going to leave tonight without saying hello to Art". I stood up and nervously walked over with her. I will never forget Art's smile as he saw me. I had left the Seed 10 years earlier I thought there was no way he would have remembered me. He stood up and gave me a big hug and kiss on the cheek. We talked for a little while nothing important just two old friends happy to see each other. It's funny how time and age changed my perceptive. I used to fear him almost to the point of resentment and now I felt nothing but compassion and heart felt love. When you got to know him I mean really know him you felt his compassion and love for his people and this was genuine. This was to be the last Seed reunion and I felt very lucky to be part of it. After this I kept in touch with him. Every once in awhile I'll call him to say hello make sure he's okay he has helped me with decisions and problems I have had in my life never once asking for anything in return. I never looked at him as perfect but I had never met a man who tried as hard as he did to lead by example.
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Thanks for sharing your story about the reunion, I have nothing but love in my heart for Art and Shelly and staff members. May they live long healthy lives.
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One day I hope to get the same chance to say "Thank You", to all the ones who believed in me when I didnt. Some of you who read this know what I truly feel and know what I am talking about.
TRUCKER
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Trucker-I know I probably know you- can you give your initials or something as a hint?/TK
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Hey Trucker,
If you would like to send Art a message let me know and i will get it to him.
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Why not just look him up and give him a call?
"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)
--Bastard Administrator
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On 2004-10-15 10:27:00, ccgar61 wrote:
"Hey Trucker,
If you would like to send Art a message let me know and i will get it to him."
You still in touch? I must say it doesnt surprise me.
Get a message to Art for me, tell him I would love to have a chat with him on a friendly basis over the phone or in person. We could talk about the good old times and we could discuss the episode by the poolside, where he acquired the synanon cult techniques, what the connection between Art Barker, The synanon, Robert Dupont, the rapid expansion in 1973 and the federal grants he received were.
Better yet, invite him to post here or even a yahoo chat session. I think he owes us all that.
Whadda think????
:idea:
gregfl
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Greg have another sandwich ::bigsmilebounce::
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Er, sure..two sandwiches today?
Make mine a swimmer, I always loved those nutritrious babies. Naw, changed my mind, give me a peanut butter and mayonesse, stinking hot with a small cup of cool aide...just to show your love!!!
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Do you remember an amature night open meeting ? I did a stand up comedy act with some Jerry Clower/Jeff Foxworthy type lines as portraing a real southern hickabilly. It might have even been around xmas. Do you remember a young boy who was brought to the Seed from Ohio(frist one) on the guise of seeing his cousin who was in the Seed only to being processed in by his parents? I remember J.U. asking him in front of the group if he thought he was going to have a hard time finding dope in Fl. He had a large bag of pot and some coke in his boot when he was searched.It wasnt long after that Art came before the group and said Cleveland was going to be the next target city.My first newcomer arrived from Cleveland right after that.Funny, he graduated from the program before me.It seems to me that the more I read other post that I remember more?
TRUCKER
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I vaguely remember this- are your initials SS
or were you a Bruce Lee fan like some truckers?
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THE YEAR WAS 1971... When Art Barker started the Seed in St Pete he had come from Miami, a member of AA and clean & sober for 17 years. If everyone can remember the 12 steps...they were based on the AA credo and which now haved become the NA (narcotics anoymous) credo. He had a home in Broward county w/ many rooms and started from there. When he realized the need for what he was trying to accomplish, he made a deal w/ Morgan Yachts who sublet his warehouse to be the hall for the St Pete Seed. Well, for all you newbies out there, I voluntered to induct myself in The Seed when Ms. Petermann's daughter ****, was a staff member. My mother had begged me for several years about getting 'help' to no avail. I called my mom in the middle of the night with abcessed arms and knowing if I didn't get clean, I had no reason to live. Charlie ***** dad had donated his warehouse we held our meetings in. Art Barker was the program Director. When I returned to Clearwater High School to finish my education, everyone was saying we had been "brainwashed", "programmed" and to turn away everything evil. I could go on and on about the bullshit I went through or I can praise those that put up with my bullshit. Regardless, I am ALIVE today because of those people who cared enough about ME to put me through that hell!! Any alumni's out there, or anyone with any doubt...please feel free to contact me at [email protected] :nworthy:[
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 10:46 ]
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Thanks Robin for your Post we share the same sentiments
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Thanks for the post Robin. Some of your facts aren't exactly accurate but your sentiment comes thru clearly.
The Seed came to St Pete in June of 1973, and the building was not donated at all but the seed was given one year free rent. After that they purchased the building outright for under 300,000 dollars.
Mrs. Peterman did my intake as well, boldface lying to me telling me if I didn't like it after two days I could sign myself out. I was strip searched and berated for around 6 hours before I finally did it. Two days later they laughed when I raised my hand and said I was ready to go.
Abcessing arms, eh? Were you a shooting drugs? If so, you were one of the few back then in the seed that actually did so.
Glad you stopped and glad you have a good life. Welcome to the forum. Do me one favor, we are trying to be carefull about mentioning peoples first and last names that were in the seed unless they were inner core types. I have edited out Charlies last name in your post out of respect for him and his privacy. Also Mrs. Peterman's daughter.
Thanks again.
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 10:45 ]
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Thanks Greg for correcting me in regards to the building being provided "rent free" for the 1st year - you are correct. 1973?? I could have sworn it was '71 but then again, I was so f***** up. I never thought I would forgot my intake date!! Actually, Susie did my intake and "boldface lied to me telling me if I didn't like it after two days I could sign myself out". Yeah, right - best lie I've ever been told!! Yes, I was shooting drugs and never have after the day I entered. I really don't care what they did or how they did it but for a hardcore chickie, it worked and made my life a lot clearer and gave me access to a whole new world which I will be forever grateful. Sorry for using full names - understand! Thanks for the response!
Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
been able to determine that for themselves,
albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
individuals did not wish to break the law but
they had no choice.
--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee
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Thanks! Sometimes I wonder if I'm alone in my beliefs as to what the Seed REALLY did for me. Then again, it's not as important as the end result, you know?
To go to Journal of Applied Polymer Science go to http://www3.interscience.wiley.com (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com) and then journal search and put the journal number and year
-- Journal of Applied Polymer Science Vol. 47, 1984
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Robin, I have a few quesions and a comment for you.
First the comment...If you were shooting drugs before the seed and after graduating no longer did, That is obviously a positive result and I commend YOU.
Now the question, if you are going to credit the seed for that, than who do we blame for Seed graduates that never shot drugs before the Seed and did so after?
Hint (a graduate friend of mine did just that and died).
If someone wasn't suicidal before the seed and shot himself as an oldcomer or after graduating jumped off the skyway feeling worthless and alone, who again is to blame?
another hint (true stories of true oldcomers and graduates).
Why did so many seed graduates in St Pete start using drugs again? Why is one on death row right now?
My point being is...Who really "saved" you?
final hint (look in the mirror)
[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 19:25 ][ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-10-26 19:25 ]
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Thanks for the congrats! I had a lot of help.
Well - first, one has to WANT to change, right?
which I so desperately did.
Second, I think most of us had some form of 'demon' and made a choice OR NOT to get to the core and get to work on the changes.
Third, is to realize if "you're going through hell, keep on going" -Winston Churchill
...and I did!!!
I give the Seed credit in providing me the tools in which to take command of my life. It's very sad to hear someone has gone back to an old lifestyle or is in constant struggle for happiness - never feeling worthy of the grace to be alive. Due to many trials in my life, there were times after graduation that I too, considered suicide, but alas, I'm chicken.
It sounds so cliche, but I never believe there is anyone to blame but ourselves for our choices and behaviors.
Yes - I look in the mirror every day and give thanks for another day above ground.
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The only time in my entire life I seriously contemplated suicide was when I was sixteen, a seed graduate, and my father was plotting to throw me back in the program.
After I got away from him and the threat of the seed I started recovering, but it took years.
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GREAT!! I believe in "whatever it takes". I have to add though, my MOM was INSTRUMENTAL in helping me get in. She eventually became my best friend and I lost her in '80. She volunteered for the sandwich making the taxi driving...all while working a full time job. Anyway, too personal but I'm glad you got it together!
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OK - bottom line...Are you where you need to be?
Anyone out there...do you feel "you've arrived" or are you still searching?
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Im not quite what you mean by that, it is a little cryptical. But if you mean am I happy...yes.
My life isn't perfect but it is much better than most. I have endured a long ardeous journey and the negativity the Seed had on me early in life was just another obstacle to overcome.
I did it, and I overcame every other obstacle so far that has been put in my path.
I DID IT. Not some dangerous peronality cult disquised as a drug rehab, not my family, no one but me. I put the credit of my success, and my failures, soley on my back.
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Understood... thanks for the chats - signing off for this day.
I bid you peace../
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I have spent 30 years trying to understand the massive internal conflicts in my brain. I have just fucking relaized what that place did to me. Iwas an innocent 14 year old girl and was turned into a self-loathing human being. Never good enough for anything. I have busted my ass over theyears to accomodate such massive feelings of inadequacy. You can't take children (which most of us were) and tell them reapeatedly that they are full of shit and worthless and gooing to die unless they submit and not expect to turn out fucking zombies.
On the outside, I am set. Have a law degree, an LLM in tax law and a successful law practice here in S. Fla. Internally, I just now realizing how much damage these poeple did to me, my brother and my friends. We were in Ft. Lauderale off SR 84 in 1973 through 1974. I have been a cult victim all my life. What a gift to finally understand that I was the victim. I am so sorry for the pain I caused others during my internment. Thanks so much for the forum.
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On 2004-10-26 21:12:00, Robin Martin wrote:
"OK - bottom line...Are you where you need to be?
Anyone out there...do you feel "you've arrived" or are you still searching?"
Every time I've ever felt that I'd "arrived", I've gotten my ears pinned back. So I'm just enjoying the trip.
I look at it this way. I was born a fighter, after a long line of fighters. If it hadn't been the Program, I might have chosen some other cause. God knows there are plenty to choose from!
But this is my primary dharma, to borrow a term, simply because of my own personal experience. The philosophy and movement that has grown up around the drug war (of which The Program is just a small but potent slice) has a very dark side w/ which I'm well familiar. Like white slavery rings masqurading as charities of orphans, most good and kind people accept the Program as good and worthwhile w/o much scrutiny. I feel an obligation to share what I know and to encourage a little healthy scrutiny of this phenomena.
May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin
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On 2004-05-03 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"the first house before SR84 was pretty much open house you came to meetings and enjoyed everyone, but when i came back in 73 to SR84 it was definitly 6 months of hell, i was basically pretty much a street kid in those days, i did not have parents to force to to go. Art took me in unconditionally, never expecting any money, maybe because i was part of the earliest seed days. I actually signed myself in. It definitly was not easy sittting in those hard chairs from early in the morning till late at night, eating those peanut butter and jelly sandwiches but i was so damaged that I needed that sort of boot camp to survice, some real love would have been better, but iIhad no other choices..I tried to escape several times when things got rough and even got away once, but I went home to my family situation and realized the seed was a better solution. When you sign yourslf into the seed it is the same as your parents signing you in, you can't leave until you complete the program. Everybody I knew outside the seed hated it., but whats that old saying, any love is better then no love at all..
The seed definitly set me on the right track, after a couple of years of being clean i went back out for another decade in california of all places. But I now have 18 years of sobriety
and it was from the seed that was planted when i young, it all came back to me, well yes I was basically brainwashed., but with some very important steps, and some bad songs "ZIPPY DO DA ZIPPY DAY" I can look back and see the good in it all, It was an experience i will never forget. Art even asked me to join the staff and they were going to help me go to art school. I turned him down, i guess i needed to make my own way at the time.
Rchard"
This is one of the saddest things I've ever read. Richard, please go back and re-read this. "Any love is better than no love at all"??????. This explains so much. I'm really glad that you were able to derive some good from your time there, I honestly am. I hope you're able to look back now though and realize that it was indeed brainwashing and very damaging to most of us. In your case, you made something good out of it and after hearing where you came from I'm not surprised that you mistook the quackery for love. That's how they're set up. All the love in the world. Everyone talks about how they're welcomed with open arms, and they are. But if you stray from the dogma then you are berated and verbally abused (and physically in so many cases) and then shunned from what has now become your "family". That is NOT the unconditional love that you hear so much about in these groups. That's EXTREMELY conditional. Now, considering that you came out of what you say was an abusive household....think about this. All of those who did NOT come from an abusive household. The ones whose parents were scared into believing that what was, in most cases, normal adolescent behavior somehow meant that all these kids were going to die if they didn't sign up. Those kids were subjected to daily verbal abuse. The belittling and confrontation and the whole idea of "breaking us down" is abhorent. Period. Maybe because you didn't grow up with any kind of real love you mistook what Art did and the real thing. THAT'S what makes this one of the saddest things I have ever read.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am really glad that you WERE able to sift some good out of there. But for what I believe to be the majority, it was devastating.
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Here's an alternative that existed in Florida back in the early `70's that might have been a whole lot better than The Seed.
http://www.amikids.org/Default.htm (http://www.amikids.org/Default.htm)
But Art would never, ever tell you about it, would he?It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Antigin. Are you sure that place wasn't a cult too. Maybe they made someone do too many pushups which caused them some permanent damage. Maybe they gave someone too close of a crew cut and now years later they can't get erect because of it. Come on you know everything in this world is fake you can't believe in anyone or anything because their are cultic tones behind everything. Beware of kindness and love for their are always ulterior motives behind everything. :scared:
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On 2004-11-10 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigin. "
If you're going to address her, you really should spell the name correctly...ANTIGEN. :roll:
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Thanks Lizard King. You are right :scared: I misspelled something. You know haw stupid we cult people are. It's kinda like we are southern or sumpin!
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Hey, if we are going to start correcting spelling, then it is going to be a full time job.
Easy there fella. And Lizard King, welcome to the forum. Were you in the seed?
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On 2004-11-10 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigin. Are you sure that place wasn't a cult too. Maybe they made someone do too many pushups which caused them some permanent damage. Maybe they gave someone too close of a crew cut and now years later they can't get erect because of it. Come on you know everything in this world is fake you can't believe in anyone or anything because their are cultic tones behind everything. Beware of kindness and love for their are always ulterior motives behind everything. :scared: "
What exactly is your problem anyway Anon? You seem to always glee in sarcastically attacking people and post here constantly but won't even pick a user name. What are you up to now, 77 posts or so?
No need to hide behind that anon moniker, I know you are an ex staffer, but really none of that matters here. You want to discuss something go ahead, but your bitterness towards others hasn't gone unnoticed. No one else here really feels that way towards others and not towards you either.
BTW, I deleted your other direct attack on Ginger. I really served no purpose on this website.
Now if you got something intelligent to say, we are listening.
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Yeah, I wonder who you are and why you seem to have it in for me so much. What did I ever do to you?
Anyway, to answer your question, I'm not sure that AMI is a wonderful, faultless organization. I first became aware of them a few years ago when a couple of kids sentenced to the camp at Big Cypress killed a young counselor during an escape. So I don't give them an unreserved endorsement. I just note that they've been around for about 35 years and haven't generated the kind of bad press and longterm resentment that the Synanon based programs have.
As we're talking about someone for whom The Seed was better than anything else they knew, I think it's quite relavent to note that there have been better alternatives all along.
Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
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I thought of Art Barker yesterday, and decided to google him. This forum was the first hit. Amazing. I was in the Cleveland Ohio Seed, 1976 to 78. and remember well, Ginger, Hank, Cookie and of course Art. I also remember well the abandonment we felt when the Seed skipped town in the middle of the night. I remember wondering what deep dark secret there must be that a little negative press caused the org to turn tail and run. I remember showing up and finding the doors locked even though I was scheduled to spend the night and watch the phones. I remember at the time we got no notification, and rumors were rampant amongst our northern clan.
My own memories of the Seed on the whole are wholesome. In the 25 years since, I have to admit the Seed did me some good. The basic princepals, although I don't sing Zipidy-do-dah everyday now. Maybe I should.
Ginger, glad to hear you're well. Had a major crush on you back then. - a combination of lust and respect.
Seed things that have helped me, - do the right things and the right things will happen - learning empathy towards others - the need to make amends..
I still carry these things with me everyday. I can't say the Seed saved my life, but it did change the course of my life for sure.
Thanks for the memories,
Steve in Cleveland
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That Ginger is not the Ginger you are thinking of Steve. Does your last name begin with an "S" also? I think I know you!
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I was between 10th and 11th grade when I arrived at the Seed. Given the drugs I was doing and the value system I was developing, my friends kept getting worse, and I was commited and determined in my bad choices. I was really doing some damage to myself. So as much as I hated sitting in a chair from 10 to 10 on stateroad 84, it took me out of that cycle and I was able to clean up and get back on track. I never graduated and was excommunicated by other members when I was pulled out.
The experience of the drugs and the Seed was intense and although I got back on track in life I felt very different from my peers in high school and I never really felt normal after that. It is hard for me to tell how much was the intensity of the Seed and how much was the recogniton of the reality of my behavior and choices in the drug experience, including how much worse it could have been if I continued. But, I really needed alot of work when I got out of the Seed and the trainwreck of addiction.
I relapsed with alcohol 30(not knowing about cross addiction) and now have 17 years in AA. When I got to AA determined to complete that program I went to alot of meetings and spent alot of time in the literature, sponsoring, forming genuine freindships. I could not find that kind of depth in the Seed. Part of it was my rebellion and part of it in my opinioin was that kind of depth was not there. In treatment today they typically try to set peaple up to continue with AA where there real recovery takes place with time and effort.
So my complaint is they should have referenced AA and the AA literature. A referal to AA would have been nice when I was booted out and excommunicated. Instead of thier "you will be back because this is the only solution attitude". In my opinion now, the Seed was simply bootleg AA in a controlled enviroment.
Also the whole demonizing of druggies, was effective and even true. But I have wondered if that brainwashing has made me untrusting to say the least for life in a distorted way.
On a positive note, from that experience I was able to turn my life around. By the time I was booted, I was clear and drugs and hanging drug users was a bad idea.
I remember a black staff member, Carl. I beleive he was a barber. He treated me well and I have never forgotten it. Also, although I rebelled and hated the whole deal when I was there. I learned alot that has served me well in not drifting back to where I was. Looking back, I think the staff members I dealt with were doing thier best to do the right things in a tough environment/business.
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WELCOME to our forum. It seems by your writings that you have mixed feelings about your time there. That is not unusual in the least.
Please tell us a story about something you remember from the seed 72. We appreciate you joining our forum and look forward to your participation.
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Thanks for the welcome!
I will respond after the holidays. Life is pretty good now but that was really an intense period..... I need to think where I want to go with this.
Happy Holidays Everyone.
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Here I found this somewhere. I don't know if it's been posted here before. But anyway.....
http://ficanetwork.net/seed/art-barker- ... reactions/ (http://ficanetwork.net/seed/art-barker-the-seeds-chief-sows-a-mixed-crop-of-people-reactions/)
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Here I found this somewhere. I don't know if it's been posted here before. But anyway.....
http://ficanetwork.net/seed/art-barker- ... reactions/ (http://ficanetwork.net/seed/art-barker-the-seeds-chief-sows-a-mixed-crop-of-people-reactions/)
Try HERE (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27775&p=338485#p338485); that post includes a link to the original article in the St. Petersburg Times. It's also been reposted on fornits a small number of times since then.
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As per a conversation that had with Greg Fl a few years back he told me that he had infiltrated Synanon and found no connection with Art Barker. There is no record of Art ever being part of Synanon. That being said there are some strange similarities especially that both use the 7 steps versus the traditional 12 steps from AA. I can remember conversations with Art and he always claimed that the Seed was a direct offshoot of AA and that he had condensed the 12 steps down to 7 steps. The reason he gave was that some steps were repetitive and not needed. The story I can recall was that the Seed started off behind the Playboy club in North Miami Beach on his 1929 Elco "trade Winds" yacht as impromptu meetings with some local junkies. He also told stories of AA meetings in New York with some actors such as George C Scott, Art Carnie, Bobby Darren. He claimed the meetings were held during the day when he was not performing his comedy act in the Playboy club. The other comedian happened to be a young George Carlin. He told me once at dinner that George Carlin was an arrogant prick. The meetings got bigger and he moved to Ft. Lauderdale to bigger locations some of the early members was Libby later changing her name to Lybbi Barker, Robert Chun ect. who later ended up as the main Staff members. I'm going off some old memories in the hope of trying to shed some light to your question. The time I went thru the Seed was during the early 80's as one of the last court ordered persons. Soon after that due to the state of Florida changing the laws regarding the supervision of minors and back ground checks for those who would be in charge of the minors the Seed stopped taking in minors.The changes in the law was a knee jerk reaction by law makers because of the child molestation case of Frank and Illiana Fuste from the infamous Country Walk Day Care center. Art stated in the group he would not have anyone subject to scrutiny by any agency federal or State. The Seed was attributed to have been the first of it's kind a rehab dedicated to younger drug user. Keeping in mind that back in the late 60's and early seventies is when many kids began using drugs such as pot and acid and whatever else and many of the parents freaked because it was a new and scary problem that no one knew how to deal with. Art addressed the issue to this generations parents. Contrary to popular beliefArt was not a republican in fact hated them. He was a staunch Democrat a big fan of JFK, Rosevelt, Clinton. He despised Nixon and claimed that in the early 70's due some statements he made in favor of Edwin Muskee some false statements were made in an attempt to discredit the Seed and later actual agents were sent in to audit the Seed under direct orders from Nixon's "Plumbers" in an attempt to close the Seed. Some of what I can remember from those old days while I was there.
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I think art was high on smokin his own dick. He was an overrated shister,and a 2nd rate boogyman that helen peterman both idolized,and half assed threatened us with. Fuck him fuck his culty mc -rehab. Seriously,the fuckhead is dead. he was a shameless self promoting, dishonest,shifty bastard. What more do you need to know. His attempts at anything theraputic were half baked at best. Go piss on his grave (wherever that is) and you can call it even.
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As per a conversation that had with Greg Fl a few years back he told me that he had infiltrated Synanon and found no connection with Art Barker. There is no record of Art ever being part of Synanon. That being said there are some strange similarities especially that both use the 7 steps versus the traditional 12 steps from AA. I can remember conversations with Art and he always claimed that the Seed was a direct offshoot of AA and that he had condensed the 12 steps down to 7 steps. The reason he gave was that some steps were repetitive and not needed. The story I can recall was that the Seed started off behind the Playboy club in North Miami Beach on his 1929 Elco "trade Winds" yacht as impromptu meetings with some local junkies. He also told stories of AA meetings in New York with some actors such as George C Scott, Art Carnie, Bobby Darren. He claimed the meetings were held during the day when he was not performing his comedy act in the Playboy club. The other comedian happened to be a young George Carlin. He told me once at dinner that George Carlin was an arrogant prick. The meetings got bigger and he moved to Ft. Lauderdale to bigger locations some of the early members was Libby later changing her name to Lybbi Barker, Robert Chun ect. who later ended up as the main Staff members. I'm going off some old memories in the hope of trying to shed some light to your question. The time I went thru the Seed was during the early 80's as one of the last court ordered persons. Soon after that due to the state of Florida changing the laws regarding the supervision of minors and back ground checks for those who would be in charge of the minors the Seed stopped taking in minors.The changes in the law was a knee jerk reaction by law makers because of the child molestation case of Frank and Illiana Fuste from the infamous Country Walk Day Care center. Art stated in the group he would not have anyone subject to scrutiny by any agency federal or State. The Seed was attributed to have been the first of it's kind a rehab dedicated to younger drug user. Keeping in mind that back in the late 60's and early seventies is when many kids began using drugs such as pot and acid and whatever else and many of the parents freaked because it was a new and scary problem that no one knew how to deal with. Art addressed the issue to this generations parents. Contrary to popular beliefArt was not a republican in fact hated them. He was a staunch Democrat a big fan of JFK, Rosevelt, Clinton. He despised Nixon and claimed that in the early 70's due some statements he made in favor of Edwin Muskee some false statements were made in an attempt to discredit the Seed and later actual agents were sent in to audit the Seed under direct orders from Nixon's "Plumbers" in an attempt to close the Seed. Some of what I can remember from those old days while I was there.
The Edmund Muskie-Art Barker connection piques my interest. Given that Muskie was based in Maine, the two were situated at the extreme ends of the East coast (more or less). What was Barker's relationship with Muskie? How well did they know each other?
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As I remember the story was back in the early seventies many influential people were paraded into the Seed showing off the Seed as a model for drug rehabs. People in law enforcement politicians, Doctors ,psychiatrist and reporters. Even back around 1971 a report was done by Francis now I can't remember his last name was done called "The Seed of Hope" and was run on the national networks. Anway back during this era I believe it was the 72 primaries Edwin Muskie was running on the democratic ticket for president and came to visit the Seed and was taken thru an open meeting. In typical fashion he was very gratiuos and impressed by the Seed. During his visit several reporters were present and interviewed him. According to Art about a week later a story appeared in a newspaper in Maine that during the visit Art asked Muskie if there was a problem in Maine with Blacks and Muskie replied no but there's a Canook problem.Art denied this exchange had ever occurred and when the paper refused to retract the story Art flew to Maine and protested in front of the paper to make public that the story they printed was untrue. Art claimed that this story was an attempt as a smear campaign to discredit Muskie in his bid for nomination of the democratic party. Later after Watergate it his revealed that this was part of the dirty tricks that was originated by the White house "Plumbers" who were also responsible for the break in at Sargent Shrivers psychiatrist office in an attempt to smear Sargent Shriver who was running for vice president under George McGovern and with the breaking into the democratic campaign headquarters at the Watergate hotel. Art also claimed that because of his actions at the newspaper he became a target of the "plumbers" in an attempt to discredit Art the Seed was audited in an attempt to discredit Art and the Seed and close down the Seed. Art claimed that the agents mistreated the Seed's staff and so he through them out. You probably can find the article somewhere in the archives in Maine's newspapers.
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The reporters name who did the story on the Seed was Fred Francis. I'm sure there is an old copy his archive somewhere. He was a national reporter.
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Don Segretti wrote the Canook letter. He was part of the Comittee to re-elect the president (CREEP). wrote it as a member of the Seed, can't verify if Art went to Maine or any of that, but that was the story. Segretti took credit for the letter as part of the whole Watergate business.
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Don Segretti wrote the Canook letter. He was part of the Comittee to re-elect the president (CREEP). wrote it as a member of the Seed, can't verify if Art went to Maine or any of that, but that was the story. Segretti took credit for the letter as part of the whole Watergate business.
M'Kay... perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, no doubt. How did Don Segretti (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Segretti) write the Canuck letter "as a member of the Seed?" Not only was he born in 1941, but... wasn't he based in California during the time in question?
Or... are you saying that the purported author of the Canuck letter (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck_letter), a Mr. Paul Morrison of Deerfield Beach, Florida, was alleged to have been a member of the Seed?
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Segretti wrote it as part of a smear campaign against Muskie - Paul Morrison was simply the name he signed to it - Morrisons was supposedly involved and present when the "remarks" were made. We can't know for sure if he was involved in the seed - Remember, Art wouldn't let anyone know who was there, so unless he was court ordered there would be no way to verify the existence of a Paul Morrison involved at the seed during the time in question.
But the fact is, Segretti wrote it as ppart of Nixons dirty tricks group
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Segretti wrote it as part of a smear campaign against Muskie - Paul Morrison was simply the name he signed to it - Morrisons was supposedly involved and present when the "remarks" were made. We can't know for sure if he was involved in the seed - Remember, Art wouldn't let anyone know who was there, so unless he was court ordered there would be no way to verify the existence of a Paul Morrison involved at the seed during the time in question.
But the fact is, Segretti wrote it as ppart of Nixons dirty tricks group
Yep, I don't think they ever found "Mr. Paul Morrison of Deerfield Beach, Florida." From what I've read, there's some question as to whether such a person even exists!
:eek:
[ I'm spoofin' with ya, Johnny G! · ;) ]
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What *I'd* really like to know is... what did you mean by this phrase:
wrote it as a member of the Seed"[/list]
Here's the full post, to jog yer memory:
Don Segretti wrote the Canook letter. He was part of the Comittee to re-elect the president (CREEP). wrote it as a member of the Seed, can't verify if Art went to Maine or any of that, but that was the story. Segretti took credit for the letter as part of the whole Watergate business.
[/list]
Sorry If I'm overly dense 'bout something that should be obvious...
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The reporters name who did the story on the Seed was Fred Francis. I'm sure there is an old copy his archive somewhere. He was a national reporter.
Did Muskie visit the Seed because of Francis' story "Seed of Hope?" Or was his visit just another one of those political photo op events, while he happened to be in Florida for other reasons? Was Muskie thought to be more focused on the "plight of our youth" than your average politician?
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Ursus,
Segretti was impersonating a member of the seed - didn't mean to imply he was there, poor choice of words on my part.
Seems like he would be a fun guy to have a few beers with - some good stories anyway!
G
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Ursus,
Segretti was impersonating a member of the seed
For real? Wow. I'm finally beginning to get the picture. Lol.
Do you have any idea why Segretti picked the Seed? Or why he chose any particular organization, or any particular individual even, to affiliate his "ratfucking" persona with? Was it simply opportunistic — i.e., whatever political event / photo op that Senator Muskie was attending at the time? Or was there some reason that it was The Seed specifically, which Nixon or Segretti may have also wanted to target?
Did Segretti know anything about the Seed, or Art's penchant for secrecy, which would certainly have made it a lot more difficult to confirm Paul Morrison's existence (or lack thereof)?
Okay, Johnny G, or anyone else who can shed light on this for me... please do confirm, 'cuz I can be a dense ol' bear sometimes: is this fabricated conversation (between "Paul Morrison" and Sen. Muskie) where Art got the idea that Nixon was trying to sabotage his pied piper operation? Or is there more to it, e.g., other events?
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It's amazing to have you oldtimers coming around. <snip snip> ...can't even remember what I just read sorry
Sounds like you're getting a lil long in the tooth yerself, Dragonfly! :D
:cheers:
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It makes sense that Segretti would use Muskies appearance at the Seed as there was no media allowed in to record the proceedings - he was probably aware of that aspect of the visit;
Art did talk about doing damage control for Muskie (trip to Maine, etc. but he didn't rate the "enemies list" or anything like that - so any threats from Nixon to the seed are, in my opinion, just paranoia.
Other than this little ratfucking episode (thanks for reminding me of the term, was going nuts trying to remember it) I doubt Nixon even knew the place existed - the Ervin comission was, after all, a Democrat controlled institution. The only reason they got any kind of federal attention is because they gave politicians the "anti-drug" seal of approval, and possibly some grants.
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Art did talk about doing damage control for Muskie (trip to Maine, etc. but he didn't rate the "enemies list" or anything like that - so any threats from Nixon to the seed are, in my opinion, just paranoia.
Can you tell me any more specifics about Art's doing damage control for Muskie?
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Claimed he went up north and was with Muskie on the back of a flatbed truck in the rain - pretty dismal picture - denying the specifics of the letter at a press conference in Maine - I think - but New Hampshire would make more sense from a primary election perspective; Might be some sort of photo or news item in a local paper, apparently didn't make the national feed.
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Claimed he went up north and was with Muskie on the back of a flatbed truck in the rain - pretty dismal picture - denying the specifics of the letter at a press conference in Maine - I think - but New Hampshire would make more sense from a primary election perspective; Might be some sort of photo or news item in a local paper, apparently didn't make the national feed.
I bet it was New Hampshire. The publisher of some paper - based in Manchester, I believe - really had a hard-on for skewering Muskie, and was the source for that article disparaging Muskie's wife with miscellaneous trite whatnot and innuendo... That is to say, he was the source for quite a few articles disparaging Muskie for anything he could come up with. At any rate, your reportage puts Art's involvement at a higher level than I had previously pictured (not that *I* would know, lol)...
Ya know, Muskie was very involved in another program on this forum, prior to the Seed even, namely, Hyde School (founded 1966). Fwiw, Muskie would have, or should have, been quite familiar with the principles of psychological coercion used to modify the behavior of adolescents...
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If you do not stop talking about this story, which I own, I will sue you for copyright infringement.
I am not Brian Dodd.
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What i know of it is just what Barker told me individually, or to the group. I did see the newspaper/magazine stories, complete with pictures - which lent credibility to the story. Cannot recall what publications, but they may have been clippings - no banner
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What i know of it is just what Barker told me individually, or to the group. I did see the newspaper/magazine stories, complete with pictures - which lent credibility to the story. Cannot recall what publications, but they may have been clippings - no banner
I guess you were the old man's confidant. No wonder you miss the place. You said before that he left you alone to watch his house while everybody else went to the beach to play football. I'm not only curious about anything Barker may have said personaly to you, but what you may have said to him. Just who or what did you have to give up to have that kind of stroke?
I smelled a rat the first time I read one of your posts,and i still do.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Env5iMrBjws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Env5iMrBjws)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLyiKeCL ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLyiKeCLBf4&feature=related)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM)