Fornits
General Interest => Addiction Treatment Philosophy => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 10, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
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Note to admin: This thread can be moved to the drug recovery forums once they are created, but since I didn't want it in the open free for all I figured this was the best topic to put it in.
If someone came to you and asked you for advice on how to get sober, how would you advise that they go about this? Please answer this for the two different scenarios.
Scenario 1: The person who comes to you is the father of an older teen about to turn 18 who is addicted to heroin and has almost died from it several times. The teen has been in trouble with the law several times for drug use and crimes related to obtaining the drug. The teen uses every single day and when asked says they can't stop on their own and need help.
Scenario 2: A close friend of yours discloses that they are a secret alcoholic, and have to drink massive amounts of alcohol daily just to fend off the withdrawal symptoms. They tell you that they can barely keep their life together, but they are a functioning alcoholic in their 30's. They have a family that knows about the drinking since this person comes home drunk almost every night. What the family doesn't know is this person has bottles stashed everywhere and starts drinking as soon as they wake up, until they go to bed. They are reluctant to enter rehab because they fear losing their job, and come to you and ask you for advice.
What would you advise in these situations to the person struggling with addiction?
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Hand him a bottle of top-quality beer and tell him not to drink it.
/thread
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both of those people need medically supervised detox. Family and peer support ( non coercive ) are the most important thing after that. The adult is going to have to tell his job something, there is no easy way to detox from heavy alcohol dependance.
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And I would tell both of them not to listen to any idiots who might try to tell them they are powerless. They know they have free will already, do not try to deceive them.
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Scenario 1: Ibogaine (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine) (and/or other withdrawal drugs) and therapy. Perhaps a support group such as SOS or SMART. New group of friends who don't use smack to avoid temptation (optional but easier).
Scenario 2: If the person is functioning and does not want to quit, leave it alone. If it's just a case of fending off withdrawal symptoms, Antabuse can help, as well as having a friend remove all alcohol from the home. Like above, therapy and a support group can also help.
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If you are detoxing at home, weed was one of the most useful tools in overcoming my own heroin addiction. Ironically, heroin was the most useful tool in overcoming my alcoholism.
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If you are detoxing at home, weed was one of the most useful tools in overcoming my own heroin addiction.
I know two friends who have done it that way. I know two other who quit drinking that way. In some states you can get prescriptions for the purpose.
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Nothing like having another addict hand you a Hershey bar and tell you, "you can do it another day".
Lets get honest here now dudes, kicking Dope and Wild Irish Rose is probably not happening on the street, I for one bring these folks to the detox centers (usually hospitals have them) so they can get medical attention and then try to find a 30 treatment center. The withdrawals are a mother f@#%er and relapse is easy in the first 15-30 days after detox.
After your 30 day stint I would try to find something to fill the huge void that will be in your life, moving out of the town, state is good, changing playmates is good, if you feel alone and want others who are like you to help I would try AA/NA, counseling, there are other groups of various names that one time abusers of alcohol and drugs congregate at. Everyone is right AA/NA is not the only option there are others just be active in looking for your help.
Just take it slow but be steady in your activities, find work that best suits your emotional and mental state at the time. Don't try to fix everything in a week.
Last but not least spend time when you can educating yourself on this self destructive behavior your recovering from.
Good luck, don't be afraid to help the next guy either.
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If you are detoxing at home, weed was one of the most useful tools in overcoming my own heroin addiction. Ironically, heroin was the most useful tool in overcoming my alcoholism.
Well first folks would have to be a dope fiend to understand the statement heroin help me quit drinking. You either stop craving it or threw up every time.
I am thinking.
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Yup, for me at least, alcohol and dope did not go together well.
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I think key is not enabling. I sort of hate that word as it has become quite a cliche.
But don't continue to shit rainbows to cover up tracks.
Someone gets another DUI, don't chauffer them.
Say "hey, don't bother hiding your bottles. We all know anyway."
Let them know you might bring them cookies, but you won't bail them out of jail.
No need to get in a crazy epic battle over reality. Stop having expectations of them they cannot fill while using.
Give them some good information for support when they are ready, don't clean up their messes, don't pretend you don't know what you know, don't allow yourself to be used. Don't lecture, don't nag, and don't tiptoe around the truth either. Let them take the consequences because you can't force them until they are ready. (or if)
But also, the choices of adults are their own. So, accept them as is, walk away, or find a middle ground.
Now, if it were MY kid slamming tracks or tweaking, I would implant a GPS on him, follow him everywhere, beat the crap out of anyone who sells to him and make their fucking life miserable and then handcuff him to my side. That's all. Nothing extreme.
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Someone gets another DUI, don't chauffer them.
See. But that can sometimes make things worse. If the person loses their job as a result of not being able to get to work, and the rest of their life falls apart, they're likely to drink far more, not less. Stress and depression have a direct correlation with compulsive behavior. The "tough love" approach often leads to more problems.
I'd agree with the bail bit and most of what you said, but when something is salvageable and there is a lot to lose... If you're a friend you might as well help out. The whole "must hit rock bottom" thing is a myth. Smokers don't have to hit rock bottom to quit smoking and it's the same with any substance.
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Note I said... ANOTHER DUI.
Also, from my perspective as a single Mom busting her ass for two kids while working and completing my thesis, I don't have any time in my life for someone who doesn't have their shit together. I won't parent an adult.
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Someone gets another DUI, don't chauffer them.
See. But that can sometimes make things worse. If the person loses their job as a result of not being able to get to work, and the rest of their life falls apart, they're likely to drink far more, not less. Stress and depression have a direct correlation with compulsive behavior. The "tough love" approach often leads to more problems.
I'd agree with the bail bit and most of what you said, but when something is salvageable and there is a lot to lose... If you're a friend you might as well help out. The whole "must hit rock bottom" thing is a myth. Smokers don't have to hit rock bottom to quit smoking and it's the same with any substance.
Psy, you have never been a addict or drunk how would you know this. This is not something you can read in a book from others such as yourself. There is not a cold stone addict or drunk here that would not say the had to hit the bottom, now that is all relative. I don't believe you have to have a lung removed before you quit smoking. During my active using I quit smoking, just hated it. There has to be some low, where you are just sick and tired of living the way you are.
I can say this take a survey of active dope fiends and alcoholics and see how life is going for them, I can tell ya it is not going on a high road.
Hitting rock bottom is a metaphor in most cases today.
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Psy, you have never been a addict or drunk how would you know this.
Do doctors need to have had cancer to understand it? Do psychologists have to have psychoses to diagnose and treat patients? Just because i'm neither a lush nor a member of your fruity little club doesn't mean I can't have a valid opinion on the subject and provide solid facts.
This is not something you can read in a book from others such as yourself.
Yes it is. There are these things known as "studies" from this field known as "science" from which you can learn objective truths.
There is not a cold stone addict or drunk here that would not say the had to hit the bottom, now that is all relative.
There's a catch 22. If a person recovers, they hit their (relative) rock bottom. If not, they haven't hit rock bottom yet. It's silly.
I don't believe you have to have a lung removed before you quit smoking. During my active using I quit smoking, just hated it. There has to be some low, where you are just sick and tired of living the way you are.
All you're really saying is that a person has to have a strong desire to quit. That's just common sense. Does it require they destroy their lives in order to gain that desire? I don't believe so.
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Note I said... ANOTHER DUI.
Also, from my perspective as a single Mom busting her ass for two kids while working and completing my thesis, I don't have any time in my life for someone who doesn't have their shit together. I won't parent an adult.
I totally agree. I was speaking more in terms of if you had the free time, were able to help, and the person genuinely wanted to quit.
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Someone gets another DUI, don't chauffer them.
See. But that can sometimes make things worse. If the person loses their job as a result of not being able to get to work, and the rest of their life falls apart, they're likely to drink far more, not less. Stress and depression have a direct correlation with compulsive behavior. The "tough love" approach often leads to more problems.
I'd agree with the bail bit and most of what you said, but when something is salvageable and there is a lot to lose... If you're a friend you might as well help out. The whole "must hit rock bottom" thing is a myth. Smokers don't have to hit rock bottom to quit smoking and it's the same with any substance.
Have a friend who just recently ended in up in jail and I would not bail him out. He is a chef at the "W" in downtown Atlanta, the head chef, I mean this guy is originally out of Boston via NYC, to Atlanta, worked at some very prestigious restaurants in those cities.
One problem though everyone overlooks and enables he is a functioning dope fiend. Has been for so many years I can not count anymore. His drugs have always come first, before wifes, kids, family and work. It would not be so bad if others did not have to be impacted by his behavior.
Well to make a long story short, he got popped partying at the "Four Seasons" (Atlanta) in a room with others and a hooker (he is married). They found dope, prescription drugs (narc), meth and pot. He is 47, the average age of the other offenders was 21 yrs old, also the room was in his name.
I don't know about tuff love, I am just not bailing him out because I think he is safer in jail. His wife is gone, this was the last straw, she moved with the kids back to California, he will not be protesting.
Dude needs help and this is my assistance in helping him, I have not gone out of my way to tell others not to bail him out. He has plenty of friends, he is a charming charismatic dude everyone likes, looks like we all just want to know that at least we tried to help him.
This incident happened back in June he is still in jail, no one will bail him out. His case comes before a judge in late October.
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Psy, you have never been a addict or drunk how would you know this.
Do doctors need to have had cancer to understand it? Do psychologists have to have psychoses to diagnose and treat patients? Just because i'm neither a lush nor a member of your fruity little club doesn't mean I can't have a valid opinion on the subject and provide solid facts.
Listen calm down, I do not want to fight. I am excited that you even want to engage in this conversation and I truly believe I can learn a lot from Anne and yourself. I was really being more inquisition to your knowledge, I may not have posed a question as I should have.
No one has facts on addicts and alcoholics, yes they do have studies yet they always leave a wide open back door, ask any Doctor.
I do believe since you have been neither you do need to learn more, you have a very rosy picture associated with your opinions. I could only wish that addicts and alcoholics would recover from sheer will, Psy I am talking real abusers of substances, not weekend warriors.
This is not something you can read in a book from others such as yourself.
Yes it is. There are these things known as "studies" from this field known as "science" from which you can learn objective truths.
They are very subjective also, not that I don't think they have relevance but the success rate for addicts and alcoholics, suck. Most die before they ever clean up.
There is not a cold stone addict or drunk here that would not say the had to hit the bottom, now that is all relative.
There's a catch 22. If a person recovers, they hit their (relative) rock bottom. If not, they haven't hit rock bottom yet. It's silly.
No, don't take every "quote" so literal, I said it is more like a metaphor. It is common sense that your not going to change a negative behavior (habit) until the consequences are to much.
I don't believe you have to have a lung removed before you quit smoking. During my active using I quit smoking, just hated it. There has to be some low, where you are just sick and tired of living the way you are.
All you're really saying is that a person has to have a strong desire to quit. That's just common sense. Does it require they destroy their lives in order to gain that desire? I don't believe so.
No it does not require it Psy, your right. Problem is many alcoholics and drug addicts do destroy their lives before they change. I really wish this did not have to be true.
Last note, I have mentioned several times that I no longer attend AA/NA meeting with any commitment. Please stop referring to me as I am a active member. This would be a false statement. The only issue there is at this point here, is my positive opinion about AA. I do believe for most addicts and alcoholics could benefit from AA's 12 steps and Traditions. As to the members of AA, well my opinions sways all over the place.
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Unfortunantely, some people are better off in jail. I would also tend to think that in some cases society needs to be protected from these dope fiends antics. The story Danny described is a familiar one to me. I just witnessed a similar scenario play out but the dopester was female. She did a couple of months at first in the local jail and then screwed up her parole with alcohol and went back for about 10 more months. Everyone liked her but just had enough of her dope bullshit. She is recently out of jail and I hear shes much better now. Sometimes a year or two in prison is exactly what these folks need to get it together. Very sad.
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i'm neither a lush nor a member of your fruity little club
By fruity little club are you referring to alcoholics anonymous? I'm asking because I noticed you included getting help from support groups in your advice, I'm curious what are your reasons for singling out AA as the one support group that people should not attend? Besides the studies and scientific theories, is there a personal reason that you are opposed to AA? Like did something bad happen to you at AA or somebody you know? I'm just kind of curious where your feelings about AA come from. thanks.
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Sometimes a year or two in prison is exactly what these folks need to get it together. Very sad.
If someone that falls into this category, and when they got out and said to people "prison saved my life" it would probably sound confusing and laughable, especially to other people who went to prison. But this is exactly all I'm saying, when I say a program saved my life. It wasn't the therapy or seminars or advice I got from staff, it was the simple act of removing me from my self destructive lifestyle at home for a relatively significant length of time that did it.
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Jail would have been cheaper :)
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Re: How to get sober
Postby Maximilian » 21 minutes ago
shaggys wrote:
Sometimes a year or two in prison is exactly what these folks need to get it together. Very sad.
Max wrote:
If someone that falls into this category, and when they got out and said to people "prison saved my life" it would probably sound confusing and laughable, especially to other people who went to prison. But this is exactly all I'm saying, when I say a program saved my life. It wasn't the therapy or seminars or advice I got from staff, it was the simple act of removing me from my self destructive lifestyle at home for a relatively significant length of time that did it.
Re: How to get sober
Postby Samara » 7 minutes ago
Samara wrote:
Jail would have been cheaper :)
That was very aptly put my friend, Max. That is, all we have been saying.
Sanmra, so true but I personally would rather take my chances in a program. Prison can hurt much worse. :waaaa:
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If you are detoxing at home, weed was one of the most useful tools in overcoming my own heroin addiction. Ironically, heroin was the most useful tool in overcoming my alcoholism.
couldnt agree more about quiting h with alot of L's. Get a good connect or liscence to grow else you will find yourself spending way too much money on pot.
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Funny, I'm actually participating (as a kind of sobriety coach) in my friend's recovery from a Heroin addiction.
This is what I believe is working.
He is in a court mandated program which regularly drug tests him and basically threatens to throw him in jail if he comes up dirty.
He moved into my house. A change of scenery was a very good move for him as it became clear that even visiting his house (where hes been getting high for many years) was a strong enough trigger to lead him to relapse.
He has my constant support and companionship. He also knows I know when he's high and I'll kick his ass.
We often have talks about how being sober has to be his decision, nothing we do could realistically stop him if he wanted to do it, he has made an agreement with himself that he wants nothing to do with dope.
I regularly give him chances to prove he is trustworthy and show him he has my respect and to me, he is not a heroin addict. I make it a point to indicate that the "addict" part of his disorder is separate from his personality and can be overcome with time and will.
We talk about the voice in his head that convinces him to use, we say "that's your addict talking" We've found it helpful to encourage an inner dialog by identifying the excuses "your addict" makes and prepare realistic rebuttals to convince him not to use.
We talk about strength, that a feeling of weakness is not an excuse to relapse and partaking in a substance is a choice that in his case comes with heavy consequences.
He also plays WoW a lot. lol. (staying busy/ entertained is a good way to ward off cravings)
No weed yet, he can't in his program but I have all confidence that he will partake after his program ends. I think it is a positive thing in his case as he has always smoked weed before he started H, so for him it is simply a return to normalcy.
We've only had one small slip in the last 60 days... I think he's doing very well.