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Topics - psy

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166
The Troubled Teen Industry / Program for sale on EBay
« on: March 08, 2007, 09:22:42 PM »
Not a Joke at all

Thanks to Muldoon for bringing this to my attention.

167
The Troubled Teen Industry / Problem, Reaction, Solution
« on: March 08, 2007, 08:08:29 PM »
This guy has stated brilliantly what I basically said in another thread the other day...
(starts at about 8 min 55 secs)

http://http://www.prisonplanet.com/video/141204drugwar.WMV

I stumbled across this randomly while researching the death of Gary Webb (exposed CIA Cocaine Smuggling... after which he "suicided" by two gunshots to head)

It's intersting that I came to those conclusions before I found this.  He even discusses the "solution" (private prisons for kids)... created for the problem Reagan and his CIA drug smuggling operation started.


This begs the question:  How many "crazy" people can come to the same conclusion independently, and have it still remain a coincidence?

I wonder if "Problem Reaction Solution" is the case with other "wars" on nouns and abstract concepts.

It was certainly the case with Germany (reichstag) and countless others... fuck no it couldn't happen here.. we're Americans. "Land of the free" and yadda yadda until we learn humility in the worst way.

168
The Troubled Teen Industry / If you can't log in or post, delete your cookies
« on: March 05, 2007, 09:27:33 AM »
i'm getting way too many emails / IMs asking about this so i figured i'd just start a thread.


If your having problems logging in, or posting at fornits, simply delete your browser's cookies

Firefox> Preferences> Security> Show Cookies > Remove all

In internet exploder... you're fucked anyway.  go get firefox

169
The Troubled Teen Industry / A Psychologist's View of EST
« on: February 17, 2007, 10:18:01 PM »
Back on ST, Before I was banned, Anne From Minnesota and I were having a little debate on EST / Landmark Forum.  Since I was banned, she has responded to my last set of questions via E-mail.  She gave me permission to post the response on Fornits.  She will not be responding to questions here, however i will respond to her via E-mail and post the debate here.

Quote from: ""Anne""
Psy.

I wanted to let you know that I did have an opportunity to watch your film clip on the Forum earlier. However, it didn't seem particularly compelling to me in one direction or another. Perhaps you can tell me why you seemed to place such emphasis on it--or perhaps I misunderstood your comments.

Je parle un "petit peu" of French and I thought the piece was well translated, vis a vis the subtitles.

Not terribly well done otherwise. In particular, the background music was hilarious--it was meant, I presume, to convey something very frightening and almost eerily supra-normal. Instead it was, to me at least, predictably corny and obviously an attempt at marketing the perceived terrors of this "awful" program. Try watching the clip without the music turned on and I think you'll be surprised how "ho-hum" it seems, speaking of manipulation. Not a very balanced commentary, not even a pretense of neutrality from the host.

It has always been clear to me that the Forum was a commercial enterprise, so the stress placed on that in the clip was not off-putting to me---you know the French, their government is a typical Euro-socialist democracy and their media seems to be an extention of this ideology. The part of the film that expressed so much angst about the fact that people were working for the Forum as "volunteers" and that this might (Horrors, Comrade!!) violate the Labor Code was kind of amusing. The "experts" on cults didn't seem particularly convincing to me---more opinion-based than anything else, as far as I could tell.

If it's your point that this documentary led to a halt to the Forum being offered in France, hate to tell you, but that's just not true. A close friend who lives in Berlin went to Paris for a large Forum presentation just before the New Year. And loved it, she's an artist and finds that it really has supported her creativity in painting.

By way of self-disclosure, I've already been to one of these introductory meetings for the Forum. Did I get a lot of pressure to sign up immediately? A fair amount, but I just firmly said "no", that I thought I might do it later, but I was just too busy to consider a committment at that time. That was it.

In this world, you've got to know what you want and learn to assert yourself (and if possible be pleasant about it)--- for anyone who doesn't have this lesson down, I'm in favor of any program that gets this knowledge solidified. Actually the lessons I learned at the workshops at my child's school help me in situations where that particular lesson is called for.

I do remain convinced that people who undertake these kinds of events have to have an adequate ego strength and a fairly certain self-image. I was pleased that an admonition related to good mental health was in the Forum contract--unfortunately enforcement of this provision is problematic: how can the Forum make sure that potential participants don't lie to get in.

Emotional growth is painful sometimes, which doesn't personally overwhelm me as long as the pain is leading somewhere positive---although it's always heart-wrenching to watch someone become so upset, as happened with the mother in the early part of the clip. As I said, this kind of publically displayed affect is not suitable for everyone. I cried a lot in one of my workshop, when certain things became clear to me and in my case, and for many others, it was cathartic. To someone who was more fragile, such a public unhappiness could be very upsetting and have a negative impact.

Similarly some people just can't cope with being called "a**h***" or "inauthentic" in public in the way that it was done in this clip, even if the attempt is to get the person's attention in order to break a negative pattern.

I know three psychologists who just did the Forum this month and all three found it useful. I couldn't do it at that time because of a scheduled vacation--but I bet I do sign up before the year is out. It's kind of ironic but all this talk about it at this site has brought it to the center of my mental radar screen. Rest assured that I would not recommend it to just anyone and that I would make sure that any potential participant knew what he/she was getting into and had a clear self-understanding about why they were doing it. I do agree with you that many of the techniques used in the workshops I attended seemed to have a resemblence to the techniques used in the Forum, although there were many differences too.

So, please psy, let me know if you would, when you have a moment, if there was anything in particular you wanted me to comment on in your clip, i'll probably look at this site tomorrow---just got home from a late night event, therefore a short check in, all for now.

Quote from: ""Psy""
Sure. A few questions actually now that you've watched it. I'll seperate them to make it easy to respond.

1. Considering not all kids sent to Emotional growth schools are 100% in the head, would you consider methods such confrontational methods safe?

2. Could such techniques cause psychotic breaks, disassociation, or decompensation.

3. Consider the woman in the video. She goes up to the stage, and the leader starts to make presumptions about her. He is assuming that she is in need of "negative pattern" breaking based on very little background information. If the leader is wrong, do you think a person could be convinced of something that is not true?

4. Could this be damaging to a person?

5. Is it ethical to use these techniques on people when they have no choice about it?

6. Was the school that your child went to (in which you experienced the workshop described) CEDU based or an actual original CEDU school?


End of questions.

Look. If you want to go to the Forum, and have truth dictated to you by a person reading from a script which requires 2 minutes of training... that's your choice. I would advise against it... Not as a mental health professional, but as somebody who was one convinced of things that were not true, and suffered a lot as a result. It took me a while to snap out of it, and years to fully realize exactly what was done to me.

Am I sure of that? Yes I am sure of it. Why? Because I figured out what was done before I went looking for answers, and only confirmed through research what I already suspected. Did I go looking for information to support a conclusion I already had? No. Because even though I suspected many things, I did not know for sure... and would rather have had the truth at that point, however painful, than a comforting lie.

Look. I don't drink... I just plain don't like it. But in program, those techniques were used to convince me I was an alcoholic. I cried and felt i had come to a realization... I felt I was discovering my "real self"... They told me i was wearing a mask, and i believed it heart and soul. I forgot who I was, and let them touch my mind. They convinced me I needed program, without which I would "relapse" and die (consider I did not have an alcohol/drug problem and was not sent to program for that reason). They knew that, and yet they used those confessions to try and convince my parents that I needed more time. This was not some isolated incident. They did this to many people, many of my friends. I saw them break before I did, and when I broke, i was so happy. I felt like i was alive for the first time. It was all a lie. Happiness is not emotional growth. An rush of hyper-emotional bliss to avoid the harsh truths in life is not any different than a drug. True emotional growth is introspection and self discovery, not having the "truth" dictated to you until you accept it. You don't know me, I don't know you. What business do I have, with two minutes of training, to read from a script, beat you down, and convince you of something on a hunch, that very well may be wrong.

You don't know the pain of realizing you were fooled. Realizing you were tricked. Realizing that what you thought was an epiphany was simply a method of making money off your suffering. You don't know that feeling of violation, that humilation. You don't know what it's like to see this happen week after week, day after day; to see the essence of self in every single person you knew, removed and replaced with nothing more than an elaborate program; to see your friends become shells before your eyes.

Why do I bother trying to convince you not to go through with the Forum? Because nobody deserves that. People with or without problems deserve compassion and love. People deserve more than "asshole" and "not real" until they comply. They deserve understanding and respect. Has your sense of right and wrong become so perverted that you honestly believe anything good can come out of such public humilation. It's as if a child, beaten by his parent, decides it made him stronger, and completes the cycle by in turn "strengthening" his children.

I'm not comparing you to an abusive parent, i'm simply asking if you now feel is acceptable, something that, at one time, you would never have considered.

Her response via Email:

Quote from: ""Anne""
Psy:

As I agreed in recent communication with you, I'll take a crack at your questions about confrontational methods.  These questions are presented in your post of Jan. 28, 2007 on the ST "New Year, New Ideas-Peace?" thread.

Your questions followed a brief back-and-forth we had regarding the Forum and Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) methods.


1) Your first question was :"Considering not all kids sent to Emotional Growth schools are 100% in the head, would you consider methods such confrontational methods safe?  

I'm on record as saying that I believe that LGAT methods need to be used with people who are in touch with reality and who have the ego strength to manage that kind of focus.  

I'm not quite sure what you mean by not "100% in the head".  At my son's school, people certainly seemed sane, if that's what you mean.  There was no one there who was psychotic.  But I agree with you that careful triaging is necessary to use certain techniques that are similar to the ones in est and the Forum.

2) Your second question was : "Could such techniques cause psychotic breaks , dissociations, and decompensations?  I believe that in a fragile individual this is a possibility.  

I wrote a grad school paper on the est phenomenon a couple of years ago, based on what I could find in the literature and going back to the beginning of LGAT recorded history.  

It?s strange to think now, that in the 60?s and 70?s and even the 80?s, people were using est with people who had had extensive stays in mental institutions.  

The danger, of course, is that Forum and related techniques can bring about an uncontrolled release of affect, which is manageable with most people, but quite disorganizing with some.  If you look at the psychological/psychiatric literature, look for  Simon (1978), Sayre (1977), Kirsh & Glass (1977) and Higgit & Murray (1983).  

Also, in the non-scientific literature, examples given in the book, ?Snapping? by Conway & Siegelman (1995, 2nd edition), but this work is so doctrinaire that I give it less weight than actual, dispassionate reports).

Earlier in my training, I worked with people who had paranoid and other types of  schizophrenia in different stages of development and control.  I could not imagine these people being able to cope with est or Forum techniques, although certainly I can think of adaptations that might well be beneficial.  

3) With respect to the woman in the video that you posted:  I really would have to know more about the woman, and more about what happened before and after the recorded segment to have much to say about this.  Such a limited clip is drive-by television at its worst, I hadn?t realized they had that en France as we certainly have it in this country.

You know, you?ve got to consider that this woman may well be in need of the breaking of  a ?negative pattern?,  perhaps that?s what she was paying for,  I just don?t know, and I presume, neither do you.  

I would have been more convinced of a problem here if this woman had subsequently participated in the film clip as having been harmed.  It sounds as if she reconciled with the trainer and went on with the training.  Perhaps it helped, perhaps it didn?t.  No way for me to know.

And your comment about the leader possibly being wrong?   I?m absolutely sure that happens.  By way of self-disclosure,  it happened to me,  not in est or the Forum but in one of the CEDU workshops, where Mel Wasserman seemed absolutely sure of some things about me that just were not true.  

See, that?s why you need people with the ability to stay in touch with reality to safely participate in these kinds of exercises.  When Mel got off on his particular track in terms of me, I was able to take what was useful from the workshop and to say ?Whatever!? about the things that just didn?t click.  I agree that someone overly malleable or even psychotic couldn?t do that.  Such people could indeed possibly be convinced of something that is not true.  Again, careful screening.  Where this hasn?t happened, I would agree that this is a travesty.

4)  Same answer: I just don?t think that these kinds of exercises could ever hurt someone who was what we like to call ?fully-functioning?.  They might feel like they?d wasted their money if they had a mediocre training, but that?s not the same thing as I think you?re talking about.

5) As to your question: ?Is it ethical to use these techniques on people when they have no choice about it??

 That?s a difficult one, I admit?nobody, including me, as a libertarian, likes the idea of making anyone do what they don?t want to do, but in this society, parents do get to give consent for certain schooling and procedures on minors.  

Again, I have to ask what you mean by ?ethical?, i.e., according to what ethic?  

If you mean according to an ethic that allows parents to make these kinds of choices, then yes, by definition, it would be ethical. If the parents understand what is involved and there is no contravening medical/psychological/ psychiatric reason for not participating.

 If you?re a ?Let them vote at aged 12? activist, probably then it?s not ethical, according to the code that you subscribe to.

I do think that such techniques can be more easily applied in an education or substance abuse counseling context than in a clinical psychology counseling context.  I don?t think that as a clinical psychologist I could lead such an exercise, because the ethic that is governing  in this discipline?at least at the present time---would require a more voluntary effort.

6) My son was a a CEDU school, he is very grateful for what he experienced although like anyone, he had things he would change.  

Same with me.   For us, the world was better because that school existed.  We don?t talk about it every day but when we do, we?re on the same page about that.  We were both sorry to see the schools bought first by Brown and then by Universal.

In fact in concert with some other parents, I tried to buy his school but the current owner, UBH, was just too big.

Doesn?t matter though, the ideas we learned can still be used other places, they?re functional in every one of us who were touched positively by those workshops and that school.  Plenty of really happy, successful grads, whether you believe it or not, there?s no question that this approach worked for a lot of people.

As for the Forum, I?m not taking it this month, I want to take it with certain other people and one of them had a baby early a week ago, so the February session is out.   Which pushes us to April because there?s no presentation in the Twin Cities in March.   But I?ll let you know what I think when I?ve been through it.

Hope you find what you?re looking for, Psy. And maybe I?ll see you on ST if you work out your differences with Lon.

Anne


My next post will be the response to this which i will send a link for her to respond to via e-mail.

170
The Troubled Teen Industry / I need your help against Benchmark! YES YOU!
« on: February 15, 2007, 06:11:01 PM »
Quit feeding that damn troll and get in here.

I would normally post this in the Benchmark forum but the industry forum gets the most traffic so... to the point:

Somebody in Southern California is willing to distribute leaflets to Benchmark's Students.  The exact details of how or content I'm not stating publicly.  I will say that it involves an "exit plan" for students there.

If you're not familiar with Benchmark (CEDU clone) yet... click my sig and read.

Normally, I do all the research myself, but this is a biggie, and I have little time, so I need your help.

What i need help with:

I need to find homeless shelters in or around Redlands California. (10 miles max).. Google Earth has turned up nothing so far.  The Salvation Army in Redlands is just a pawn shop.

I also need to know what students are legally entitled to when they leave a school.  I know students are entitled to their own pocket money they brought with them to benchmark, but this is often not much.  I would like to avoid homeless shelters if possible.  Benchmark has a student allowance fund, from which students are credited (not given) about $20 a week.  I need to know if the students are entitled to that money.  There is also a student "revolving fund".  Benchmark used to let students save up the money and leave, but stopped doing so after too many students said "fuck you, i'm gone!"  It is cheap in Redlands, if students are able to stay in a motel with a phone, they will be able to get a job and live on their own.  This is probably the most difficult information to find, which is why I mention it here.

171
The Troubled Teen Industry / Anti-Programmie Wallpaper
« on: February 14, 2007, 09:39:20 PM »
Get your wallpaper here.  Downloaded it.  Use it on your work computers.  Put them on public terminals, school computers. Anywhere, Everywhere.

I'm releasing this wallpaper under the Creative Commons License.  You may do anything you like with it but use it commercially.

Creative Commons License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 2.5  License.

Download:

1680x1050 (widescreen) wallpaper
1440x900 (widescreen) wallpaper

1600x1200 (fullscreen) wallpaper
1280x960 (fullscreen) wallpaper
1024x768 (fullscreen) wallpaper

172
The Troubled Teen Industry / So I promised milk i'd make wallpaper
« on: February 11, 2007, 02:57:25 AM »
so here it is.  sorry for the delay.   this is version .01

It's 3 AM and i couldn't think of any better text to put to the images...
so.  suggestions welcome

Link to the wallpaper here

173
The Troubled Teen Industry / Yet Another CCM Girl Flaming Thread
« on: February 07, 2007, 10:59:50 PM »
Bring it on traitor

174
Facility Question and Answers / Carlbrook thread Part 2
« on: February 05, 2007, 03:49:42 AM »
Hopefully this will get moved later into the main thread which is now locked...

So... Let's pick apart the staff shall we...  comments in blue.
Quote from: "Carlbrook Staff Page"
Advising

Amy R. McCormick, M.S.W., L.C.S.W
Assistant Dean of Advising
A Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Ms. McCormick graduated magna cum laude with her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Master of Social Work degrees from the University of Maine. Prior to to joining the Carlbrook team, Ms. McCormick served as a Residence Director at the University of Maine and as a Program Manager at Shaw House, a residential facility for adolescents.

Shaw House is an emergency shelter in eastern maine.  I have not confirmed her employment there, but based on the website it seems it is a volunteer only thing.  She is not a psychologist.  She got her masters in social work.


Angela Caine, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Caine received her Bachelor of Social Science in Psychology from Indiana University and her Master of Science in Social Work from the University of Louisville, where she was selected for the National Dean?s List. She has several years of experience in individual, group and family counseling, most recently worked as a Therapist for Wellstone Regional Hospital and LifeSpring Mental Health Services in southern Indiana.

Well that's bull right there.  Therapist?  Without a licence...  For a cult?  Hint:  Google Lifespring!   it's est's cousin.  CEDU was borne out of est and Lifespring.. no wonder they hired her.

If that's not convincing.. simply ask and i can provide lots and lots of information on LifeSpring.

Not a licensed therapist

Julie Dyer, M.S.
Advisor
Ms. Dyer holds both a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University and a Master of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from Radford University. She has worked as an adolescent therapist for several years, first with young females at Tekoa Residential Treatment Center and later as a substance abuse counselor at the Division of Addiction Services in Richmond.

Okey dokey.. You are going to want to check out her former place of employment...

From the webpage "Tekoa utilizes experiential therapies to address the self-defeating coping strategies..."
http://http://www.tekoa.org/

includes the "Flying Changes Equine Program"

Well i guess there are programs in virginia..

Not a licensed therapist.

Bridget Gitthens, M.A.
Advisor
Mrs. Gitthens holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and a Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy from Appalachian State University. During her years of counseling experience she has served both individuals and families in the areas of substance abuse, domestic violence and sexual assault. Her recent work experience includes positions at OASIS and Kaiser Permanente.

Unable to find information on previous employment.  

not a licensed therapist

Trevor Grimes, M.A.
Advisor
Mr. Grimes received his Bachelor of Arts in Sociology from the State University of New York at Geneseo and his Master of Arts in Social Work from the State University of New York at Stony Brook. His counseling experience includes work in educational and clinical settings, including the Lindenhurst School District (NY) and the Dept. of Family Medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital.

Unable to find information on previous employment.  

not a licensed therapist

Brandy Litwin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Litwin received both her Bachelor of Science in Psychology and her Master of Social Work degree from Western Michigan University. She possesses counseling experience with both adolescent and adult populations, having been a counseling supervisor for an adult foster care home as well as a high school counselor. Most recently she served as a school social worker at Harbor Creek School in Michigan

Unable to find information on previous employment.  

not a licensed therapist

Jen McArthur, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. McArthur, who holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Warren Wilson College and a Master of Social Work from Brigham Young University, has worked with adolescents for several years, including at-risk youth and socio-economically challenged populations. Her experience includes counseling positions with Wasatch Mental Health, Trend Community Mental Health, and Alldredge Academy.

Hmm... Alldredge Academy again?
Hmm... Wonder if she was there when the kid died...  have to check on that.
Wasatch Mental Health in Provo UT.
http://http://www.wasatch.org/
Wilderness program brought to you by the United Way!
 
not a licensed therapist

Johan Madson, M.Ed.
Advisor
With a Bachelor of Arts from Oberlin College and a Master of Education in Human Development Counseling from Vanderbilt University, Mr. Madson?s experience includes several school counseling positions in Tennessee and North Carolina (in both public and private settings). Most recently he was employed by the Office of Residence Life at Portland State University in Oregon.

Unable to find information on previous employment.  

not a licensed therapist


Sally Martin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Martin received her Bachelor of Social Work from James Madison University and her Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University. Mrs. Martin has worked her entire career with adolescents experiencing emotional and/or behavioral difficulties, whether as a Residential Counselor at Seneca in California, a Child and Family Counselor at Devereaux in Arizona, or as Assistant Clinical Director at Phoenix Outdoor in North Carolina.

Quote

Robert Rollins, 12
Died: April 21, 1997
Cause: Asphyxiation
Patient at: Devereaux School, Rutland, Mass.

Robert was restrained for 10 minutes, face down on the floor, after a dispute escalated over his missing teddy bear. Investigators found a significant delay in emergency response. The staffer who restrained the boy left him lying, unresponsive, on the floor. No criminal charges were filed."
Yup.. she's qualified.

Phoenix was also a Brown school (CEDU)

not a licensed therapist

Daniel Perry, M.A., L.L.P.C.
Advisor
Mr. Perry holds a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from Lake Superior State University in Michigan and a Master of Arts in Counseling from Central Michigan University. He has worked with adolescents for several years in both residential and private practice settings, and was previously the director of a day-treatment program for adolescents with substance abuse problems.

Curious they don't mention the name of the day-treatment program he worked at.

not a licensed therapist

i'll finish the rest tomorrow

Mindi Perry, M.S.W., L.M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Perry earned a Bachelor of Science in Sociology from Lake Superior State University and a Master of Social Work from Grand Valley State University. With extensive experience in individual and family counseling, she has held a private practice specializing in children and adolescents, worked with Child and Family Services and Community Mental Health of Northeast Michigan, and most recently was a behavioral health consultant at Alcona Health Center.

Denise Prendergast, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Prendergast earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology at Michigan State University and a Masters of Science in the School of Social Work at Columbia University. She most recently served as a volunteer in the Peace Corps in Botswana where she counseled those infected and affected with HIV/AIDS. Prior to that Ms. Prendergast worked extensively with children and adolescents in both residential and outpatient settings and was a counseling supervisor at the San Diego Center for Children.

Natalie Sisson, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Sisson received her Bachelor of Science in Social Work from Illinois State University and later graduated cum laude with a Master of Social Work from the University of Georgia. A member of the National Association of Social Workers, she has previously worked with adolescents as a residential counselor at Chestnut Health Systems and most recently as a therapist at Peace Place.

Kathianne Smith, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Smith earned a Bachelor of Science from Barat College and a Masters in Social Work from the University of Illinois. She has over 20 years experience in the field and has worked with adolescents and families in both outpatient and inpatient settings. Certified in the Commonwealth of Virginia as an expert witness, Mrs. Smith has worked in private practice and holds over 12 years post-license experience.

one is licensed as a counselor...  yay.  still not a psychologist

Nathan Webber, B.A., M.A. candidate
Advisor
Mr. Webber holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from the University of Toledo and is a candidate for a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Argosy University. He has worked with adolescents for several years, first as a Counselor at Three Springs and then as a Therapist at Cumberland Mental Health. A member of the National Guard, he completed a tour of duty in Iraq in 2003.


well TSW should be able to tell you about where he worked

Alicia Woodworth, M.S., L.P.C.
Advisor
A Licensed Professional Counselor, Ms. Woodworth earned a Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Western Michigan University and a Master of Science in Clinical Counseling Psychology from Francis Marion University. For the past several years she has worked with adolescents as a Clinical Counselor at Circle Park Behavioral Health Services, conducting individual, group and family sessions.

one is licensed as a counselor...  yay.  still not a psychologist

Frank A. Chesno, Ph.D.
Consulting Psychologist
Dr. Chesno, a licensed clinical psychologist with almost 30 years experience working with families, earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Georgia, with pre-doctoral training completed at the College of William and Mary. He is a member of the American Psychological Association and has served as president of the South Carolina Academy of Professional Psychologists. Currently, Dr. Chesno serves as Director of Behavioral Medicine Services at Baptist Medical Center.

I'm going to check and see if this guy is licensed.


Karen.

So two of the programs some of these staff worked for have caused the deaths of children.

Do you think it's ok for people without licenses to practice medicine?

Just because your son wasn't harmed doesn't mean that others weren't.  Does your son think Carlbrook was harmless (not to him, to others)?

175
The Troubled Teen Industry / ST Copyright Advice
« on: February 05, 2007, 02:09:18 AM »
Quote from: ""Jena""
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Originally posted by exhausted:
Quote from: ""Jena""

           
Quote from: ""OverLordd""
Originally posted by OverLordd:
            P.S. Mose... these are my thoughts and they are my intellectual property, and definally not lon's in any way shape or form.

        Should I take this to mean that you do not accept the terms and conditions that you accepted upon registration?

        Jena Martin
        Forum Moderator
   Jena

    Are you saying that the terms & conditions rule that all thoughts must be Lon's and not you're own [Confused]
    because that's what OL was saying - that these writings came from his mind and not Lon's....if that's the case I would never have accepted the terms & agreements either

The rule in question is stated on the very bottom of each page of the forum. It states that submissons to this site become the property of Woodbury Reports, Inc. and taking anything from this site and using it elsewhere is a copyright violation.

This is pretty standard for internet forums. It is nothing out of the ordinary from what I have seen.

Jena


However... a lawyer on another forum (who basically said the same thing as my neighbor IP attorney): "Because copyright (at least in the U.S.) is fairly difficult to actually transfer to someone else, the author of a post is almost always the copyright holder. In the Terms of Service, the author probably agrees to give the forum a license to use the material, but the author would still be the person who could give you permission to re-use it (under whatever limits the TOS might put on it).

there might be some newspapers that actually get copyright to the letters they print. Transfer of copyright needs to be done in writing, signed (physically, on paper) by the copyright holder. there are some publications that will contact the writers of the material they decide to print and ask them to transfer copyright. there should be a notice on the Letters to the Editor page stating whether the author or the newspaper owns the copyright.

As soon as something is put into a "fixed form" (which includes being published on the web), it's automatically copyrighted. So unless something specifically says it's in the public domain, assume that it's copyrighted. "

So technically.. I infringed on Jena (by posting her text in full) who infringed on Exhausted, who infringed on Jena, who infringed on OverLordd...  Nobody infringed on ST.

So.  Keep in mind... whatever you write, you own.  Period.

176
The Troubled Teen Industry / More Censorship at ST
« on: February 03, 2007, 08:44:15 PM »
Quote
Folks, I have 20 minutes to get ready and get to work, so this is not the best job I can do! I will come back and address all this tomorrow after work, but....

Hijacking of threads to talk about Fornits is just not going to be tolerated anymore. If someone posts a topic, then let's stick to the topic. Generally, someone's topic is NOT about anyone else and how they have been treated at Fornits. It's not "all about YOU"!!!!!

I cleaned up one thread, but I gotta' go. I will fix anything else tomorrow.

If you don't like what I did, or want to complain, please post it here, rather than in the middle of someone else's thread.

Jena Martin
Forum Moderator


Hear that folks:  it's not "all about YOU"!!!!!
 :rofl:
I expect all responses to refrain from mentioning Fornits...  That Evil site.

177
Facility Question and Answers / The Carlbrook thread
« on: January 30, 2007, 11:04:57 PM »
Welcome Charley

178
The Troubled Teen Industry / Why I was banned from ST
« on: January 30, 2007, 11:26:39 AM »
Quote from: ""Lon""
   From:      [email protected]
   Cc:      [email protected]

Well, we could talk about your sophomoric argumentativeness of the type any
teacher worth their salt would get tired of very quickly.

Or:

We could talk about making the forum unsafe by tearing apart opinions by
clever use of technicalities. (i.e. technically the operation was a success
even though the patient died).

Or:

We could talk about basic dishonesty of making a global assertion, and when
presented with facts, smoothly modifying your argument to attack from a
different direction (As you did in our brief exchange).

Or:

We could talk about covering up your very emotional opinions through the
veneer of intellectualization and technicalities.

Or:

We could talk about disparaging motives and abilities of people, most of
whom you know nothing about.

However, let's settle on naming programs, attacking people and motives
rather then their ideas (defaming), placing copyrighted material on our
board, and taking copyrighted material from our board (all posts) and
placing them on another site,

Lon Woodbury IECA
Certified Educational Planner
www.strugglingteens.com
Bonners Ferry, Idaho
208-267-5550



-----Original Message-----
From: Kristie Henley [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:47 PM
To: 'Lon Woodbury'
Subject: FW: Banned?



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Crawford [mailto:********@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:13 PM
To: Kristie Henley
Subject: Banned?

This is absurd.  I did not attack anybody and was no more  
argumentative than Anne was. I was mererly pointing out technical  
inaccuracies (which you know, by the way to be inaccurate).  
"violating aggreements"  how?  Could you give me a detailed  
explanation of why i was banned?

Note there are no details.. Only accusations with no support...

This is what I sent to Lon yesterday evening:

Quote from: ""ME""
Would you be willing to reconsider?  It seems Anne appreciated my posting...  And i'm sure WilleNelson has no problem with me either (considering I talk with her often privately).

This is what I sent in reply this morning:

Quote from: ""ME""
On Jan 29, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Lon Woodbury wrote:

Well, we could talk about your sophomoric argumentativeness of the type any
teacher worth their salt would get tired of very quickly.


Odd.  No teacher i have ever had has complained about that.  I've heard "insightful", "voice of reason" ... lively.  but never "sophmoric".  Perhaps they weren't "worth their salt".

We could talk about making the forum unsafe by tearing apart opinions by
clever use of technicalities. (i.e. technically the operation was a success
even though the patient died).

"Technicalities" are also, often very important, as that is all the big picture is comprised of... Many many small technicalities, seemingly unimportant on their own, but without which the big picture would be blank.

We could talk about basic dishonesty of making a global assertion, and when
presented with facts, smoothly modifying your argument to attack from a
different direction (As you did in our brief exchange).

What?  You alleged that fornits posters had negative motives... when in fact were only attempting to see if legal assistance could somehow be provided to Lori's child to help her have an advocate, in case she didn't want to go to program.  I admit my reply  was "witty"...  perhaps even bordering on "smart ass"... but I don't see that as any sort of attack.

We could talk about covering up your very emotional opinions through the
veneer of intellectualization and technicalities.

Emotional opinions rarely change minds.  I truly doubt you would want me to express those on your site.  That's part of what fornits is for.  "Intellectualization" as you call it, i would refer to as "reasoned debate".  I came to your site, primarily, to continue a running debate with Karen (WillieNelson), since, admittedly, she was blasted unfairly on fornits.  She feels safe on your site, and (obviously) has no problems with me.  She and I have talked a lot privately to the point of becoming ... one could  say "friends".  

We could talk about disparaging motives and abilities of people, most of
whom you know nothing about.

Really?  How do you know who i have contacted outside of ST, on e-mail for example.  I have talked to Karen at length.  Admittedly I have not talked to Anne yet, and perhaps i rushed to judgement about the one example I mentioned below.  I am willing to apologize regarding that statement if Anne felt offended.  It was not my intent.

However, let's settle on naming programs

Unless i made a mistake somewhere... i'm quite sure i censored any names of programs i mentioned.. (Unless you count the CEDU family of programs which i meant to mean "cedu based")

attacking people and motives
rather then their ideas (defaming)

The one instance where i implied that somebody didn't have a good motive you saw on that thread.  I implied that Anne didn't care about Lori's well-being because if Fornits was as bad as she thinks, i don't know why she would refer Lori there.  I feel that was a valid point.  I have had my motives attacked again and again on ST.  I have not complained about that.

Look.  I know parents can be attacked on Fornits.  It happens more than a fair amount.  I did not feel Lori could "roll with the punches" like many other parents, and as such did not think it would be a good environment for her.  With her views, she could easily be mistaken for a troll and relentlessly attacked.  In that respect, ST is a much safer environment for parents.

, placing copyrighted material on our
board,

I don't know what you mean by that.  I am at a loss as to where I did that.

and taking copyrighted material from our board (all posts) and
placing them on another site,

I asked a copyright lawyer who lives across the street whether or not submissions on forums were copyrighted works.  He said no.  He told me only the original author of a posting can copyright a work... also.  He said that such copying (and i showed him the posts) would be considered "fair use" even if they were copyrighted.

--------

It is also interesting that all posts (with the exception of Mose) in reply to the announcement of my banning so far have been supportive of me.  Including Anne from Minnessota (who was the last person i was "arguing" with before Lon banned me.

Lon also changed his Board's disclaimer to this:
Quote from: ""Lon""
Welcome to the Struggling Teens Discussion Board! My overall purpose is to make this Board a safe, supportive and helpful haven for parents of struggling teens. Every other consideration is secondary to this purpose. Jena's job as moderator is only to facilitate constructive and honest discussion for everyone's advantage. Enjoy, and I hope you find what you need here.


Constructive and honest discussion for everyone's advantage... except the struggling teens themselves of course.  Good for Lon's business maybe.

I'm sure Lon is reading this...  So.  My message is this:  Un-ban me and wait for a good reason to ban me.  Banning me is bad for you politically anyway.  How many people are saying now "well i guess the fornits crowd was right about lon"?

179
The Troubled Teen Industry / I got banned from ST
« on: January 29, 2007, 04:01:06 PM »
For what exactly?

Probably this:

Quote from: ""LoriJ""
hank you so much to everyone here for getting me to open my eyes wider than they already were. There are personal issues that I cannot discuss here or anywhere in cyberspace, but I will say that things seem to be looking up for my daughter. I have learned that there are several options for her, with an rtc being the most drastic. She is not in a most drastic state, so she will not need an rtc. However, we are moving forward with talk therapy in town. That is the first step and I am happy to report that she is on board and is choosing the counselor. Fine with me. So long as she cooperates this time. If not, we will cross that bridge when we get to it. Thank you again, more than words can say.


She sent me an e-mail saying "can let your buddies know that our daughter will not ever go to an egbs thanks to you and others"

I guess Lon was worried people were listening.

180
The Troubled Teen Industry / Breaking my heart
« on: January 27, 2007, 06:22:32 PM »
This is breaking my heart
Quote
Yes, she takes meds for the depression, anxiety, etc. so thankfully, she is not self-medicating at this point. She does not bond well with others so no boyfriend issues per se other than the fact that she is dying for love and obsessed with finding it in whatever boy will pay attention to her. I feel that she needs a place that is "good at working with kids who need some help with emotional issues" first and foremost. She will not cooperate here in town with counseling. We have tried and tried. I will check into St. Margaret's nonetheless. I also have an appointment to talk with Big Creek Ranch in Arkansas. Thank you for your insight.
Quote
Psy- She needs more help (emotionally) than she allows here. It's time for an intervention so to speak even though there are no obvious outward signs of total destruction. i.c. drugs, alcohol, sex, etc. Her issues run deep. I feel that it is more important to help with those than move head on into college, even though she is college material. Thanks for your help.


No problems to speak of, but the woman still thinks her kid needs an EGBS.  I don't know what i can say to convince her not to do this...  I saw so many kids like these at benchmark, and they were systematically destroyed.  They were hollowed out...

Also, any information on "Big Creek Ranch" in Arkensas would be appreciated.

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