Post by: Che Gookin on October 08, 2007, 11:48:44 PM
Gramps: Pass me anothe beer.
Me: Ok but tell me more about the war.
Gramps: Wasn't any Nazis left in the whole damn country after we kicked their asses.
Me: Why did the Allies kill them all?
Gramps: Hell no.. they were all either "tricked" by Adolph and his gang or just pretending to be a Nazi to get by.
Me: Why did they fool Hitler to begin with?
Gramps: Sons a bitches didn't have a lick of sense in them and wanted a bully boy to give them a tune to dance to.
Moral of the story here, illustrated by my crotchety gramps, is parents on this forum are making some very quick claims to being brain-washed. I think we are slinging this word around like candy and in the process letting some of these people off the hook. It is for this reason I've devised the "Shithead Parent Manifesto".
SHITHEAD Parent Manifesto:
Parents I will only be nice to you to help win your child free of whatever program you incarcerated them in.
Parents I will only continue to be nice if you refrain from sending your child to a second programme and apologize to your child for his or her wrongful incarceration.
Parents I will only be nice if you take it upon yourself to address your total lack of parenting skills which more than likely resulted in your child's struggles in the first place.
Parents I will no longer fall for this flimsy excuse of you claiming brain-washing. Brain-washing is an unwilling process that involves a great deal more than just a few phone calls and seminars. In all reality what you experienced is your own sadism, gullibility, or ignorance.
Some of you parents have taken it upon yourselves to break your kids free of the programmes in a very short span of time and have admitted your mistakes. My hat goes off to you and you will retain my good will.
The rest of you parent let it be known that from this day forward I now fully support any legislation that calls for the charging of parents for child abuse for sending your child to an abusive programme.
In conclusion:
I no longer support the notion that brain-washing occurs so freely.
More often than not the kids affected by these programs are due to the result of sadism, on the parts of their parents, and or ignorance. I've seen to many cases where parents actively wanted their children to be punished. I remember to many occasions where it seemed like the parents enjoyed hearing about their kid's punishments.
Yes these programmes prey on ignorance, but it is every single parent's responsibility to protect their children. Failure to properly investigate these placements are the sole responsibility of the parent. Blame can never be placed on a unscruplious ed con when it is the parent's sole responsibility for their children. Many parents have acknowledged this fact and my hat goes off to them for their honesty.
Others have not..
They suck.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 12:50:26 AM
Programs wouldn't survive on the small percentage -- like the ones you mentioned -- who genuinely wanted their kids to be punished. Even the most disturbed sick fuck of a parent isn't likely to spend this kind of huge money just to see their kid get abused.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 12:54:55 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Fine, lets not call it brain-washing. Call it being a sucker, an easy mark for a slick sales pitch. It's still wrong, and this industry is still all about the money and all about tricking parents into thinking their kids are getting help in the program.
Programs wouldn't survive on the small percentage -- like the ones you mentioned -- who genuinely wanted their kids to be punished. Even the most disturbed sick fuck of a parent isn't likely to spend this kind of huge money just to see their kid get abused.
I saw the sadism in these parents far to frequently for my own comfort. Sure they put on a slick role of the victim, but I suggest you not let yourself get fooled by them. They after all are covering for their crimes against their own children.
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 09, 2007, 02:10:53 AM
Post by: Oz girl on October 09, 2007, 05:48:49 AM
What I would look at is the way to get a cultural shift away from zero tolerance, excessive drug laws and the idea that your adolescent errors will fuck up the rest of your life irretrievably. This supports the industry immeasurably. I would debate whether a change of laws can help and how. i would look at getting the US and the wider wstern world to see just how OK their kids are really likely to be and lobby federal and local govt for better local mental health services. making value judgements about the parents whether true or not sometimes misses the point.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 07:51:11 AM
A good half of em get off on their kid's suffering.
the other 50 percent, give or take 10 percent, are gullible ignorant bible beating rednecks or delusional nutjobs who by into program thinking due to their own lack of mental fitness.
Post by: Oz girl on October 09, 2007, 08:11:50 AM
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 08:16:23 AM
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 10:23:04 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
focusing too much on whether those who send kids to programs are good or bad people is like arguing over a length of string. Obviously a variety of people send kids for a variety or reasons. Some are assholes, some are naive, some are scared for their kid's future. Just as some kids go for very small petty reasons, others have real problems that are being tragically exacerbated by these dreadful places. I would rather look at the social wider factors both positive and negative, how to overcome them and what alternatives there are.
What I would look at is the way to get a cultural shift away from zero tolerance, excessive drug laws and the idea that your adolescent errors will fuck up the rest of your life irretrievably. This supports the industry immeasurably. I would debate whether a change of laws can help and how. i would look at getting the US and the wider wstern world to see just how OK their kids are really likely to be and lobby federal and local govt for better local mental health services. making value judgements about the parents whether true or not sometimes misses the point.
Nobody could've said it better. You're awesome Oz Girl!
Post by: Anne Bonney on October 09, 2007, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
focusing too much on whether those who send kids to programs are good or bad people is like arguing over a length of string. Obviously a variety of people send kids for a variety or reasons. Some are assholes, some are naive, some are scared for their kid's future. Just as some kids go for very small petty reasons, others have real problems that are being tragically exacerbated by these dreadful places. I would rather look at the social wider factors both positive and negative, how to overcome them and what alternatives there are.
What I would look at is the way to get a cultural shift away from zero tolerance, excessive drug laws and the idea that your adolescent errors will fuck up the rest of your life irretrievably. This supports the industry immeasurably. I would debate whether a change of laws can help and how. i would look at getting the US and the wider wstern world to see just how OK their kids are really likely to be and lobby federal and local govt for better local mental health services. making value judgements about the parents whether true or not sometimes misses the point.
:tup: :tup:
That's really the only way any true or valuable changes will happen. Society has gotten waayyy off track and been bamboozled by the puritanical bullshit for far too long. It really is time for a dose of reality.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 09, 2007, 11:27:14 AM
Survivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids. It doesn't come with a manual. I am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering". I have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole. Wouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 11:45:55 AM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
When survivors or anyone else insist that parents have all the responsiblity for the state of the teen industry, I hear the excat same type of black and white thinking that is promulgated by the programs.
The teen industry is funded by the parent's dollar or their willingness to use their insurance/state/school district dollars. So yes the teen industry is a direct result of the parent's stupidty, sadism, and gullibility.
Quote
Survivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids.
I bet most anti-program survivors on this forum wouldn't dump their kid in a program.
Quote
It doesn't come with a manual.
Common sense is the only manual you need.
Quote
I am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering".
I'm a veteran member of this industry and I've meet numerous parents who enjoyed their chidren's suffering.
Quote
I have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole.
Obviously you haven't done much research. Most of Spring Creek Lodge and other wwasp programmes are filled with kids dumped their by their parents till they are 18 to avoid having to pay high boarding school tutions or they can use their insurance benifits.
Quote
Wouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.
This at best is a poorly stated fallacy. However, I will coopt it for my own use by now painting most of the programme parents as Jeff Dahmer wannabes.
Post by: TheWho on October 09, 2007, 12:13:26 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
When survivors or anyone else insist that parents have all the responsiblity for the state of the teen industry, I hear the excat same type of black and white thinking that is promulgated by the programs.
Survivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids. It doesn't come with a manual. I am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering". I have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole. Wouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.
Hello Pitbull mom, I see you have been reading here. This is one thing I have struggled with since I started visiting this site. I hear the perception of programs parents and stories of how parents get a kick out of sending their kids away and go off to Hawaii after dropping their kids off at a TBS for a big celebration etc.. I have spoken to hundreds of parents and not one has fallen into this category.
In my opinion it makes it very difficult for readers to take all the stories of abuse or mistreatment at face value when knowing their stories of program parents are not true or at best embellished.
When the survivors grow up and have families of their own (as you pointed out) they will see that there is no enjoyment in seeing your child suffering or needing help outside the home.
Post by: BuzzKill on October 09, 2007, 12:32:25 PM
Quote
Obviously you haven't done much research. Most of Spring Creek Lodge and other wwasp programmes are filled with kids dumped their by their parents till they are 18 to avoid having to pay high boarding school tutions or they can use their insurance benifits.
Well Wookie - this is about the biggest crock of shit you've ever dumped out. The programs are all Way more costly than private school tuition. And I have yet to hear of an insurance company paying for any of these shit hole programs! Hells Bells - its dam near impossible to get an Insurance company to pay for legitimate and appropriate treatment, once you are dealing with substance abuse; learning disorders, or mental health issues.
Funny this turn you've taken. You used to be a voice of moderation with regard to the Parent situation. You often said it was important to reach out to the parents and that attacking them unreasonably was counter productive. Its one of the few things you and I agreed on.
OZ Girl is the voice of reason on this issue - and I hope her POV will be given serious consideration by anyone reading these threads.
As you know - I feel strongly brain washing is a very real factor. I feel it is important to understand this. It is what it is. Its not why parents turn to these programs, as Oz Girl explains so well. But it is why they find themselves more devoted to the program than their own children and families, once they begin attending the seminars and or parent group meetings.
I "saw" the change occur, over and over, in the months I was on the BBS. Perfectly average moms and dads, who had real concern for their kids, and not a few questions about the apparent problems in the program ( educational and crowding and diet - no one knew anything at all about OP or what restraint actually was) turn into mindless parrots as they attended the seminars; with an increasing callousness toward their child, and an increasing willingness to cut off and shun anyone who didn't support the program.
They are *changed*. They feel this change is a great thing. It matters not if in reality their lives fall apart. They abandon life long ideas about ethics and morality and faith, and accept ideas and values totally forgine to their own - and they don't even realize it.
That is a result of cultic indoctrination: Brain Washing.
It is so powerful and effective that they are not able to realize the program could in any way be a failure. When their children do come home - and they are much worse than before; or they cut them out of their lives as hated enemies never to be trusted or even spoken to - they will still insist the program was a success.
When their child takes that exit plan, and they then shun them - and the son or daughter goes on to meet many accomplishments any parent would find joy and satisfaction in - they will still insist they return to the fukken program and graduate!
I mean, it is nuts. And yet, for these seminar junkie parents, it is normal.
They are brain washed.
Now - I am not saying what they do is "OK" - that this is an excuse. I am saying it is the reason they are so strange and irrational with regard to their children and the program.
I would hope that pointing this out to them might help them begin the process of "waking up". Hopefully, before to much damage is done.
I would also hope it might help some of the kids realize why their parents have become cold, callous bitches and bastards. It might help them heal, if they understand their parents were deceived, and literally fukked in the head.
About the Zero tolerance factor - the more I think about it, the more I feel this is worth focusing on. We really should formulate a reasonable substance abuse policy and promote it with every elected official we possibly can.
Shall we talk about what might be reasonable?
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 09, 2007, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""When survivors or anyone else insist that parents have all the responsiblity for the state of the teen industry, I hear the excat same type of black and white thinking that is promulgated by the programs.
The teen industry is funded by the parent's dollar or their willingness to use their insurance/state/school district dollars. So yes the teen industry is a direct result of the parent's stupidty, sadism, and gullibility.QuoteSurvivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids.
I bet most anti-program survivors on this forum wouldn't dump their kid in a program.QuoteIt doesn't come with a manual.
Common sense is the only manual you need.QuoteI am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering".
I'm a veteran member of this industry and I've meet numerous parents who enjoyed their chidren's suffering.QuoteI have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole.
Obviously you haven't done much research. Most of Spring Creek Lodge and other wwasp programmes are filled with kids dumped their by their parents till they are 18 to avoid having to pay high boarding school tutions or they can use their insurance benifits.QuoteWouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.
This at best is a poorly stated fallacy. However, I will coopt it for my own use by now painting most of the programme parents as Jeff Dahmer wannabes.
These are the kinds of statements that make parents, media folks, and legislators not take survivors stories' or their opinions seriously and scares them off from further reading on fornits.
What is really needed is better community mental health resources. They don't exist or are inaccessible to middle class America. That is where I will focus my anger and my need for justice.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 01:12:15 PM
Bottom line is there is no excuse for abuse - and that includes parental ignorance.
How many parents actually go visit the facility they send their children to?
It's hard to know but I think we can safely say the majority of parents who send their kids to programs do so SIGHT UNSEEN which considering what kind of "schools" these places are, some may view as an incredible leap of faith (trust) instead of what it really is - RECKLESS.
The recent article about Gulf Coast Academy is a classic example of reckless parental conduct, IMO. A mother sends her kid to a WWASPS program sight unseen and then is horrified when she actually visits the facility.
This wasn't a result of brainwashing. This was a result of the parent failing to do due-diligence.
http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps ... 70315/1002 (http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071007/NEWS01/710070315/1002)
Where Buzz is right is the effects of LGAT. There is no question parents who attend these seminars are indoctrinated with the values and beliefs of the facilitators. How lasting the effect is depends on several key factors, the main one being how much money the parent has to keep investing in the progressive levels of indoctrination. In the end, the training wears off within 6 months according to most experts. Even less for children who thankfully, are more resilient and tend to lose the magical child thinking once they get back into the real world. It's the parents who have trouble letting go.
Anyway, I think TSW and Buzz each make good points, that's my 02. cents.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 09, 2007, 01:31:25 PM
Quote
Obviously you haven't done much research. Most of Spring Creek Lodge and other wwasp programmes are filled with kids dumped their by their parents till they are 18 to avoid having to pay high boarding school tutions or they can use their insurance benifits.
I feel your anger, and I'm as angry as you are, but you are misdirecting it. Parents are not looking to get rid of their kids.
Here's some factual information on the $$ topic to support my statement. Youth Care charges upwards of $14,000 per MONTH. How many private high schools schools charge that much? None that I know of, certainly none in my community. Most insurance plans only pay for 30- 90 days, and then the parents have to take over the cost, which is why you see so many kids in and out of programs. If I had been looking to just get rid of my kid, I certainly could have found a whole variety of cheaper alternatives. I was paying out of pocket, and I'm not rich. I didn't even have a job anymore. A job I lost because I took off too much time from work to take care of my family. If you want to get your jollies by saying that I sponsored my son's death, go ahead and entertain yourself. IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. If you really want to make a difference, get to the root of the problem, which is lack of community mental health resources. Use your anger to facilitate change there, where it can make a difference for a whole new generation of kids.
Private schools do not accept kids with problems like assualt and school refusal and severely defiant behavior. I would have used a day treatment in a heartbeat if one had existed. They don't. For awhile I drove my son 200 miles round trip every DAY for day treatment in a hospital. Obvioulsy not a long term solution.
I realize many survivors will never see parents as victims, and have a lot of understandable hatred towards parents who let them down, but they really aren't the monsters you make them out to be. I know I'm not going to convince you of that, but believe this -- until you find a more moderate approach, parents looking at the industry, the Congressional Committee, or people like Miller will not take you seriously, or put you on a witness stand. Think about it.
I hated my parents until I had kids because I grew up in a brainwashing environment, with punishments that should be illegal. At one point in high school, I seriously considered putting a bomb in their car. Eventually I forgave one of them, and realized I had to lose some of the anger if I wanted to be able to experience any happiness in life. The inability to forgive the other has caused me immeasurable pain in my life.
I am absolutely not condoning programs or abuse, but I'd really like to see some survivors really survive this. Directing your anger in a positive way, and finding a constructive way to make a difference is a big step in that process. Lashing out at prospective parents, or making fun of them is not going to get their attention. Mine maybe, but I'm not looking for a program.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
sur·vi·vor –noun 1. a person or thing that survives.
2. Law. the one of two or more designated persons, as joint tenants or others having a joint interest, who outlives the other or others.
3. a person who continues to function or prosper in spite of opposition, hardship, or setbacks.
Post by: Karass on October 09, 2007, 01:38:40 PM
TSW, I think you might be a little out of touch with modern day program finances. The programs that are marketed to parents as 'good' programs are in the $10-$12k per month range. As Buzzkill pointed out, good luck getting any health insurance company to pay for any of that. I don't know about school IEPs, but I suspect that school district officials don't simply rubber-stamp expenses of that magnitude without a lot of questions, second opinions, etc. School districts in the U.S. aren't exactly flush with cash these days.
How does a middle class or even upper middle class family fund such an expensive undertaking? I think a common mechanism in the last few years has been home refinancing -- taking a big chunk of that ever increasing home equity out in cash to hand over to the almighty program.
So it occurs to me that the mortgage crisis, tighter credit and declining real estate values is starting to cause a major negative impact on program enrollments -- for the simple reason that most Americans don't have another option to fund it. Not too many parents have easy access to that kind of cash, no matter how convinced they are that a supposedly good program can 'save' their child.
Edit: I just read Pitbull Mom's post above. Apparently I'm the one who's out of touch. My $10-$12k/month figure is on the cheap end of things.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 01:46:24 PM
The program you sent your soon to could not be described as a BM warehouse. It is important to differeniate between the types of programs and approaches used to treat kids though I would have to say that parents are often "sold" what the ed con or program owner/admissions rep believes they want to hear. There are no laws that require parents to be told the truth, or mandate full-disclosure on the part of the program or ed con (e.g. fatalies, DSS substaniated cases of abuse, lawsuits against a program or ed con, etc.)
Post by: BuzzKill on October 09, 2007, 01:57:54 PM
Quote
In the end, the training wears off within 6 months according to most experts. Even less for children who thankfully, are more resilient and tend to lose the magical child thinking once they get back into the real world. It's the parents who have trouble letting go.
True nuff. The thing is, it takes a few weeks or months for the conditioning to break down and wear off AFTER the person is no longer in contact with the group, and thus having the conditioning constantly reinforced by the group.
As long as they remain active in the parent support groups and with the seminars. Many of them go on to become "facilitators" in the seminars; and many of them remain in the support groups for years.
I feel they have more trouble letting go because the program has become their religion. It is a part of their personal identity and the idea of letting it go or admitting it is false or faulty is very stressful. I feel this is why they get so hysterical when presented with evidence of the abuse. They will typically fall into shrill spouting of the Program mantras as a response to any criticism.
Many of the program grads are the same way. But its true they seem to come out of it sooner. They don't have the same "support" system the parents have - they tend to want to reconnect with society and the conditioning as a result will slowly wane.
It is a complicated issue that can't be explained fully on a forum such as this. For example, one part of it seldom spoken of is the problem of compliance and participation- Compliance and participation with the abuse. In the upper levels the students themselves become the abusers. For them, acknowledging they were abused requires admitting they have abused others. It seems to take time and maturity for most to be able to take that step. This is enough to keep many from ever admitting the program is abuse.
For many of the parents the same mechanism is involved by virtue of the referral process. If you have referred families to the program; and insisted it was all that is wonderful and then some; it will be much harder to ever admit you were wrong. Your mistake has been multiplied over by how ever many families you've enticed into the web. This is one factor keeping many of them from seriously considering that the abuse allegations are true.
And this is worth pointing out once again - they do not believe the allegations are true. They are not able to even consider the possibility. They have been trained to think of anyone making such allegations in very disparaging terms - Chattering Pigs for example. One more very common cultic sort of trait.
Post by: Rachael on October 09, 2007, 02:23:34 PM
I just recently obtained all of my medical and school records and have now been able to see precisely the scope of what my mother was trying to do. She time after time fabricated complete lies about things I had allegedly done to try to have me "committed" to various psychiatric facilities. Invariably, the professionals involved would compare her stories with what I was saying, my school records, my volunteer and work history, the awards I had received, my IQ and personality tests - and deduce that something was up, but that I was certainly functioning above average and doing pretty bloody well considering the challenges I faced from my mother. Almost all of this happened without my knowledge, I am only learning this now.
In the end, my mother had to resort to a place like AARC. No legitimate treatment facility would ever have attempted to commit me. This is the fault of AARC - they did not question what my mother said, and when it became patently obvious that I didn't have a problem, they kept me anyway. But, this doesn't in any way exonerate my mother.
I don't know what is wrong with her, but it certainly was there before she ever met with AARC. If I ever get the opportunity, I will see her charged with unlawful confinement, slander, psychological abuse, neglect and every other applicable charge. People like her need to realize that they cannot get away with hiring someone else to do their abusing for them. If she locked me in her basement for six months, strip-searched me, withheld food, restricted sleep, hurled verbal abuse at me for hours on end, prevented me from going to school, prohibited me from reading, and sometimes even disallowing me to speak - she would be in jail. It is no different if she hires someone else to do the job. And these are only the things she knew about prior to having me sent there - things like physical and sexual abuse that are not advertised as features of the program are another thing entirely, but they fall under the category of parental negligence. Add to this the fact that now, having full knowledge of everything that did happen to me there, she still refuses to support me saying that it might "put her friendships at risk". She is responsible for everything that happened to me there, as she put me in a position where I could not defend myself or go for help from any authorities.
If a person throws you into a pit full of rabid, starving pitbulls, they are responsible when you inevitably get bit.
Post by: BuzzKill on October 09, 2007, 05:02:34 PM
Have you read any of the books out there about Borderline mom's?
I've not myself, as that hasn't been a focus of mine. I'm not sure which one, if any, might be most worth reading. You might want to hit Amazon though, and look them over. Some of what you describe, makes me think this might be what you were dealing with.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 09:10:05 PM
The sadism, as illustrated by Racheal, is far more prevalent through out the industry than is suspected. I put the number at at least 50 percent.
So to Buzzkill:
The far larger crock of shit is your repeated claims to have been brainwashed. Niggah puhlease...
Gullible is a far better word.
The original post sparked the exact kind of debate I suspected it would. On one side you have parents claiming, "it isn't sadism... IT'S BRAINWASHING!"
On the other you have one regular survivor saying, UMMMM yes it is.
And at least one guest poster, who I know is a survivor, saying that sadism is far more prevalent than these parents are denying.
Key facts here are as follows:
Far to many of these parents want their children punished in programmes.
Parents pay for these programmes with their own funds or use of various benifits. That makes them one of the largest supporters and funders of this entire sick industry.
I've personally witnessed parents taking perverse pleasure in the knowledge that their kids are doing hard consquences. This didn't occur ina wwasp programme either.
So it is clear to me that what we really have here is a gaping divide on the forum. On one side you have parents trying to 'spin' away their responsibilities for their failings as parents. On the other you have the survivors.
I'm somewhere in the middle finding it all very tragic that it is the parents who are probably going to do most of the talking in this congressional hearing.
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 09, 2007, 09:22:39 PM
*ahem*
a) "I put my kid in there thinking it was safe/they'd get help/ I'd feel better/whatever and then after months of isolation and hearing bullshit and buying it I went to check it out and OH MY FUCKING GOD. I pulled my kid out but I hate being guilt tripped about it, I did it out of love, drop it already"!
b) "I honestly got brainwashed by the seminars but I still can't be guilted about it but I'll sure as hell blame my kid and say it was for love"!
c) "I wanted the kid to be punished and "tough love" and all but I didn't think it would be this bad"!
And, well, what me and TSW (at the very least...) feel should be said to those parents is, basically:
"SHUT THE FUCK UP. ADMIT YOU FUCKED UP. ADMIT YOUR FAULT IN THIS. STOP WHINING, STOP BITCHING, STOP SNIVELING. YOU FUCKED UP AND WERE FOOLED AND NEGLIGENT, AND SOME OF YOU WANTED YOUR KID TO SUFFER OR EVEN KNEW AS BAD AS IT WAS AND STILL CONDONED IT. A FEW WERE JUST WEAKLINGS AND WANTED THE KID OUT OF THEIR HAIR OR WERE TOO WEAK TO GO PULL THEIR KID OUT LIKE THE CRYING SNIVELING BITCH FROM THE WAMI VIDEO WHO LEFT HER OTHER DAUGHTER AT SAFE DESPITE NOTHING BEING WRONG WITH HER.
GROW UP, BE THE PARENT, ADMIT YOU FUCKED UP, HELP YOUR KID AND HELP STOP THIS."
More or less, anyway.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 09:24:30 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 09, 2007, 09:28:15 PM
SHE ADMITTED SHE FUCKED UP.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 09:36:27 PM
Post by: TheWho on October 09, 2007, 09:51:00 PM
And to all the parents who made the right decisions: you worked with you childs counselors and therapists. Worked extensively on getting local services for your child and finding the right fit for him or her. The tireless hours of worrying whether or not you are doing the right thing. The days of research and commitments to finding the right placement, having you child analyzed and tested to insure they were a good fit for the TBS you final chose. The months of participation and working with the counselors, staff and therapists, the monetary commitment, lost vacation time with the other children and family members….seeing your child slowly get back onto the right path and get interested in life again and setting his/her own goals, taking control of their own life again, the smile on her face……..all this makes it all worthwhile knowing you made the right decision for your family. Now, you have come full circle and you are back together again as a family.
Looking back you say to yourself it would have been an easy path to just do nothing, save your money and take a chance on your childs future that things would work out as others had suggested, but what a horrible turn your child was taking and might have been lost if you had not cared, tossed her future to fate and not taken control or an effort to help him/her.
Congratulations, sticking by your child and staying focused on their best interest no matter what eventually pays off and you have proven that.
...
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 09, 2007, 09:56:51 PM
Quote
Congratulations, sticking by your child and staying focused on their best interest no matter what eventually pays off and you have proven that.
Too bad that doesn't involve placement in a program and isolation from their child and later having censored, monitored communication with their parents while in a program, or subjecting them to a program's ideas of "therapy" against their will without medical (or any) need, Who.
Parents who do a good job should be mature enough to not need their ass kissed. If they're that fucking immature and need kudos and pats on the back they really shouldn't be parents anyway, but its too late to fix that, now isn't it?
Your whitewashed, alternate-universe fairytale you just posted about in a idealized program's view of "the process" the parents go through while the children are incarcerated can make a first time reader think they're useful, but the lack of anything of substance besides press released and P.R. such as what you're posting speak for themselves in time if they're willing to do research.
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
DID I MENTION YOUR GRAMMAR SUCKS?
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Here's to the other 99% of the kids parents: you fucked up bad.
And to all the parents who made the wrong decisions: you worked with your child's torturers and abusers. Worked extensively on ignoring local services for your child and laughing while your kid was humiliated. The tireless hours of partying, not caring whether or not you are doing the right thing. The days when you realized "Oh wait, I don't have to deal with my kid anymore!" because they were being warehoused in the TBS you finally chose. The months of ignoring your kid, although it was at a high price, it was very well worth it because now you can lard out and watch soap operas in peace, despite seeing your child slowly become demoralized and end up hating you, with much worse problems than they had going in, with no more goals or self-direction because that was thoroughly beaten out of them, and possibly taking their own life... but who gives a shit? It was all worthwhile knowing you don't have to deal with your family. Now, you have come full circle and are getting fucking owned by your enraged child who slams you into the lowest-cost nursing home the moment you start to lose what's left of your tiny little mind.
Looking back you say to yourself it was an easy path to just do nothing, spend some money to make sure your child was out of your hair, and utterly ignoring the horrors you could have found with even a cursory browsing of Fornits. Who gives a shit about your child's future and the fact that he wasn't actually getting any real school credit? Who gives a shit about the horrible torture your child was enduring and was lost because you simply did not care, tossed her future into the hands of sadists and taken direct, predatory control of her.
Congratulations, because what matters is not your child's future, sanity, or health, but your own self-justification, and you have proven that. Thank you for validating me!
I would like to insert dots to make it look like this was not made by a lesser computer program than the Programmie-Trans 9000, that majestic creation of hallowed circuitry, but since the triple-dot construction was in this earlier I have failed.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 10:09:10 PM
Congrats Pitbull Mom and Buzzkill you both fail horridly based on association via the who.
Post by: Antigen on October 09, 2007, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Now - I am not saying what they do is "OK" - that this is an excuse. I am saying it is the reason they are so strange and irrational with regard to their children and the program.
I would hope that pointing this out to them might help them begin the process of "waking up". Hopefully, before to much damage is done.
I would also hope it might help some of the kids realize why their parents have become cold, callous bitches and bastards. It might help them heal, if they understand their parents were deceived, and literally fukked in the head.
I agree with this, I knew my parents were brainwashed going in. It helped a lot more than I ever realized till I started making friends with other program vets. There was a stark difference between my mom and dad. Mom loved this shit, took to it like a duck to water. It took her a solid 10 years to really drag my dad along to close to that degree. He actually had a higher fidelity to himself and us kids than to the program. Mom's still high as fuck on the shit.
Quote
About the Zero tolerance factor - the more I think about it, the more I feel this is worth focusing on. We really should formulate a reasonable substance abuse policy and promote it with every elected official we possibly can.
Shall we talk about what might be reasonable?
How about a constitutional substance abuse policy? I think the one we had up until 1914 worked pretty good. It was exactly no less effective at addressing personal substance abuse than the policy we have now plus it cost exactly nothing and did exactly no harm in the process.
By that time, this fucked up hippie experiment of a nation had cut the Panama Canal, built the trans-continental railway, gave the world Samuel Clemens, Thoreau and sweet potatos. (sorry for the tobacco) Overall, I think the experiment worked out pretty well. I want the old deal back, damn it!
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 10:51:36 PM
Post by: Oz girl on October 09, 2007, 10:59:40 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
How about a constitutional substance abuse policy? I think the one we had up until 1914 worked pretty good. It was exactly no less effective at addressing personal substance abuse than the policy we have now plus it cost exactly nothing and did exactly no harm in the process.
By that time, this fucked up hippie experiment of a nation had cut the Panama Canal, built the trans-continental railway, gave the world Samuel Clemens, Thoreau and sweet potatos. (sorry for the tobacco) Overall, I think the experiment worked out pretty well. I want the old deal back, damn it!
There was a national substance abuse policy in the US? What was it? Was it's ethos centred around harm minimization? Libertarianism? i am intrigued.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 11:12:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Waygookin changes his mind on an hourly basis. It is funny he does not play the name and shame program staff game. He likens program parents to murderers on one thread and sorrowfully brags about the amount of restraints he performed on another. He every so often has a tantrum and loudly says he is gone for good only to show up the next day. Every so often he will also have the nerve to challenge people about what they are doing to help kids without knowing anything about them yet his own primary contribution appears to be bragging about the amount of hookers he has fucked and playing idiotic mind games. He sometimes has a point but it is hard to take his condemnation seriously because of his hypocrisy and school boy stupidity.
Oz girl I still luv yah!
Post by: TheWho on October 09, 2007, 11:23:25 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
QuoteCongratulations, sticking by your child and staying focused on their best interest no matter what eventually pays off and you have proven that.
Too bad that doesn't involve placement in a program and isolation from their child and later having censored, monitored communication with their parents while in a program, or subjecting them to a program's ideas of "therapy" against their will without medical (or any) need, Who.
Parents who do a good job should be mature enough to not need their ass kissed. If they're that fucking immature and need kudos and pats on the back they really shouldn't be parents anyway, but its too late to fix that, now isn't it?
Your whitewashed, alternate-universe fairytale you just posted about in a idealized program's view of "the process" the parents go through while the children are incarcerated can make a first time reader think they're useful, but the lack of anything of substance besides press released and P.R. such as what you're posting speak for themselves in time if they're willing to do research.
I realize it is frustrating reading some of these accounts of how kids did poorly in some of these programs, but you have to realize that this doesnt represent the majority of the kids, you can rest assure the vast majority are doing great...until a clinical study is done you probably will not be convinced, and that is okay because it wont effect you personally. As for the parents, they can contact the schools and ask to speak to parents who have had kids graduate or drop in unannounced and walk around the campus, have lunch with the kids, talk to the teachers etc. (thats what I did) and see for themselves...they dont need to take our word for it or guess who is right or wrong.
But I do always enjoy this discussion with you Niles and I thank you for keeping it mature and civil this time.
Post by: Antigen on October 09, 2007, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
yep more or less.
More...
d) I was pretty fucking brainwashed when my kid was a toddler and some flunky w/ a teaching certificate told me my kid was disordered. Of course, I didn't know it then (duh! brainwashed?) and I've barely started to get a grasp of it now. But what TSW says about the Allied/American attitude toward former Nazis is dead on. Look at the industry as the analogous to the core of Nazi true believers in the decades leading up to TIME Magazine naming Adolph Hitler man of the year. No, look really close because there are many ties. The family fortune behind Seed/Straight is none other than Harriman Walker Bush. And they group psychology is just the same.
This is a broad, systemic cultural problem. That there exists a market for this bullshit is the problem.
Trivia question: What was the name of the banking/holding company that took the bullet for CEDU
Crib: Google Harriman brown cedu
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 09, 2007, 11:32:41 PM
Quote
I realize it is frustrating reading some of these accounts of how kids did poorly in some of these programs, but you have to realize that this doesnt represent the majority of the kids, you can rest assure the vast majority are doing great...until a clinical study is done you probably will not be convinced, and that is okay because it wont effect you personally. As for the parents, they can contact the schools and ask to speak to parents who have had kids graduate or drop in unannounced and walk around the campus, have lunch with the kids, talk to the teachers etc. (thats what I did) and see for themselves...thsy dont need to take our word for it or guess who is right or wrong.
The only proof anyone has is that it is bad. What is known about them is INTRINSICALLY WRONG. The vast majority has NO DATA TO BACK UP ANY OF THEIR CLAIMS AND THEY SHOW EVERY INDICATION OF BEING JUST ANOTHER QUACK WAREHOUSE.
Getting a sales pitch from someone trying to sell the program to justify it or make money (You might as well ask me to talk to Sue Scheff about programs) is hardly proof. The burden of proof is on the programs, and for 30 years they've given nothing, but others who have looked into it have seen hell on earth, empty promises, and quack bullshit to the core.
Isolation and coercion for a fucking year with LGAT and "emotional growth" mind fuck is not helpful.
And, this shit does effect me personally. My conscience has a very hard time accepting this goes on and that I've only been able to do what little I have to put a stop to it and greedy or stupid fucks such as yourself still exist on this world and breathe my air!
Quote
But I do always enjoy this discussion with you Niles and I thank you for keeping it mature and civil this time.
Mature, CIVIL? I am not a fucking conversation partner or a colleague of yours and you can go stick a retractable batonâ„¢ up your ass regarding enjoying a "Discussion". You're spewing bullshit and playing damage control and P.R. and show every fucking indication of being a member of or in some way related to this fucked up industry and frankly I personally wish you'd get lost out at sea and die.
You take comments said in jest and satire and try to paint me as a racist and a bigot, when everyone, even the most stupid among humanity know I'm damn well a misanthrope, making it impossible for me to be racist or even bigoted, as that would require me to like someone!
Get your story right, asshole, FOAD.
Love,
Niles
Post by: Che Gookin on October 09, 2007, 11:36:36 PM
After the war there wasn't but 2 nazis left in germany.
On fornits and the rest of the world how many parents have genuinely said, "I screwed up by not doing my very best to protect my child from a dangerous programme."
You just rarely see it.
Most of the time they claim brainwashing or bad advice. Now I can agree to some extent with you that their is a definite cultural trend amongst the American population that leads people to make some seriously absurd decisions regarding their children's welfare.
But that isn't brainwashing. That is blind acceptance of culture and to willingly be blind to the dangers that are out their for you child is parental neglect.
Nothing more nothing less.
Post by: TheWho on October 09, 2007, 11:42:25 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""yep more or less.
More...
d) I was pretty fucking brainwashed when my kid was a toddler and some flunky w/ a teaching certificate told me my kid was disordered. Of course, I didn't know it then (duh! brainwashed?) and I've barely started to get a grasp of it now. But what TSW says about the Allied/American attitude toward former Nazis is dead on. Look at the industry as the analogous to the core of Nazi true believers in the decades leading up to TIME Magazine naming Adolph Hitler man of the year. No, look really close because there are many ties. The family fortune behind Seed/Straight is none other than Harriman Walker Bush. And they group psychology is just the same.
This is a broad, systemic cultural problem. That there exists a market for this bullshit is the problem.
Crib: Google Harriman brown cedu
Republic Bank (Bank of America Branch?)
...
Post by: TheWho on October 09, 2007, 11:51:37 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
QuoteI realize it is frustrating reading some of these accounts of how kids did poorly in some of these programs, but you have to realize that this doesnt represent the majority of the kids, you can rest assure the vast majority are doing great...until a clinical study is done you probably will not be convinced, and that is okay because it wont effect you personally. As for the parents, they can contact the schools and ask to speak to parents who have had kids graduate or drop in unannounced and walk around the campus, have lunch with the kids, talk to the teachers etc. (thats what I did) and see for themselves...thsy dont need to take our word for it or guess who is right or wrong.
The only proof anyone has is that it is bad. What is known about them is INTRINSICALLY WRONG. The vast majority has NO DATA TO BACK UP ANY OF THEIR CLAIMS AND THEY SHOW EVERY INDICATION OF BEING JUST ANOTHER QUACK WAREHOUSE.
Getting a sales pitch from someone trying to sell the program to justify it or make money (You might as well ask me to talk to Sue Scheff about programs) is hardly proof. The burden of proof is on the programs, and for 30 years they've given nothing, but others who have looked into it have seen hell on earth, empty promises, and quack bullshit to the core.
Isolation and coercion for a fucking year with LGAT and "emotional growth" mind fuck is not helpful.
And, this shit does effect me personally. My conscience has a very hard time accepting this goes on and that I've only been able to do what little I have to put a stop to it and greedy or stupid fucks such as yourself still exist on this world and breathe my air!QuoteBut I do always enjoy this discussion with you Niles and I thank you for keeping it mature and civil this time.
Mature, CIVIL? I am not a fucking conversation partner or a colleague of yours and you can go stick a retractable batonâ„¢ up your ass regarding enjoying a "Discussion". You're spewing bullshit and playing damage control and P.R. and show every fucking indication of being a member of or in some way related to this fucked up industry and frankly I personally wish you'd get lost out at sea and die.
You take comments said in jest and satire and try to paint me as a racist and a bigot, when everyone, even the most stupid among humanity know I'm damn well a misanthrope, making it impossible for me to be racist or even bigoted, as that would require me to like someone!
Get your story right, asshole, FOAD.
Love,
Niles
Sorry, Niles...guess we can scratch the civil/maturity comments (but you made a good run at, its almost midnight) ..... your remarks are racist and bigotry, but you can flash your rights to offend people, this is america.
As far as the isolation long term placement etc. being abusive or ineffective you are going to have to show me some long term studies to support your position (something current) because there is a plathora of kids graduating eveyday that tell you that you are wrong and they are flooding the top schools in america...if this is what you call abuse or ineffective then I think most parents will embrace it..... the only thing you offer is a lifetime living on the streets with no education...
No sales pitch...talk to the schools or parents who have been thru it, talk to the kids who graduated
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 11:52:54 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 09, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
[program victims] flooding the top schools in america
::roflmao::
Do you even read what you write anymore?
Plenty of people trying to use program graduations as real diplomas, Who, and finding it doesn't, well, work. Ivy Ridge got pwned trying to pass its diplomas off as valid. Rememebr that?
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 12:09:43 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Previous post is an actual parent.Quote from: ""TheWho""[program victims] flooding the top schools in america
::roflmao::
Do you even read what you write anymore?
Plenty of people trying to use program graduations as real diplomas, Who, and finding it doesn't, well, work. Ivy Ridge got pwned trying to pass its diplomas off as valid. Rememebr that?
Most kids with a high PSAT or SAT apply and get accepted prior to graduation and then transfer their credits to their previous highschool for a diploma or they could just accept the TBS's diplomma. This is one way.... I guess if you wait to graduate and then try to apply to universities they may wonder why you waited and question your drive or ambition to succeed and would pass you over.... you need to be agressive and apply before graduation.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 12:20:52 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Most kids with a high PSAT or SAT apply and get accepted prior to graduation and then transfer their credits to their previous highschool for a diploma or they could just accept the TBS's diplomma.
What credits, Who? What diploma? Most of these hellholes don't even pretend to be offering an education, and the ones that do don't actually give real credits applicable ANYWHERE! Does the word 'unaccredited' mean anything- anything at all- to you? It sure does to the colleges!
Besides, most truly smart kids don't end up in these shitpits, as they know enough to counter their parents' insanity before it starts. The exceptions, such as Psy and Rachael, post here.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
This is one way.... I guess if you wait to graduate
My FUCKING GOD, Who. Listen to yourself. Again, you have no business using that word, "graduate". We are talking not about schools but about places where anyone can be prevented from "graduating" at any time.
Imagine telling that to a college. "Hi, I have these credits from this unaccredited shitpit calling itself a school, and I might get level-dropped any time meaning that I have no idea whether or not I'll "graduate" from this shithole, but can you please accept me anyway?"
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 10, 2007, 12:50:25 AM
Quote
As far as the isolation long term placement etc. being abusive or ineffective you are going to have to show me some long term studies to support your position (something current) because there is a plathora of kids graduating eveyday that tell you that you are wrong and they are flooding the top schools in america...if this is what you call abuse or ineffective then I think most parents will embrace it..... the only thing you offer is a lifetime living on the streets with no education...
WOW. Seriously. That's... thats great. I want some of your fucking ganja there, buddy. You must be thinking with all kinds of portals tonight!
First of all, long term isolation and confinement is bad, and that's simply common sense. I'm not going to bark on command and find studies to back that up, because not everyone on the sidelines is a fucking idiot like you.
Secondly, you need to show some proof that a plathora[sic] of program kids are "flooding" the top schools of America, especially in light of how Ivy Ridge got its ass kicked somewhat recently in regards to their bullshit diplomas.
Thirdly, I've only seen evidence of shitty educations at programs, if any at all.
Fourthly, how am I offering a lifetime on the streets with no education? Did I ever say don't offer schooling or to keep them out of school? I said keep them out of programs! That would make it a lot easier to go to school!
:rofl: You're like a pinyata. If you're hit long enough fun stuff comes out :D
Post by: Antigen on October 10, 2007, 06:29:37 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
There was a national substance abuse policy in the US? What was it? Was it's ethos centred around harm minimization? Libertarianism? i am intrigued.
Yes, Oz girl. We had a spectacularly effective drug policy in this country from the time of its founding till the passage of the 1914 The Enemy Is Us: How to Defeat Drug Abuse and End the "War on Drugs" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965399982?ie=UTF8&tag=circlofmiamithem&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0965399982)
Post by: Antigen on October 10, 2007, 06:40:51 AM
Quote from: ""Who""
...until a clinical study is done you probably will not be convinced, and that is okay because it wont effect you personally.
Quote from: ""Google Answers""
Question
Subject: Studies on "new religious movements"
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: qpet-ga
List Price: $40.00 Posted: 10 Feb 2003 14:48 PST
Expires: 12 Mar 2003 14:48 PST
Question ID: 159677
Are there any studies on "new religious movements" and "large group
awareness training", their impact on individuals lives and their
lasting effects?
Answer
Post by: Antigen on October 10, 2007, 06:48:51 AM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
I think Ginger you are mistaking my op for something different. I was comparing the lack of Nazis in Germany to the lack of parental responsibility in the program parent population.
After the war there wasn't but 2 nazis left in germany.
On fornits and the rest of the world how many parents have genuinely said, "I screwed up by not doing my very best to protect my child from a dangerous programme."
You just rarely see it.
Most of the time they claim brainwashing or bad advice. Now I can agree to some extent with you that their is a definite cultural trend amongst the American population that leads people to make some seriously absurd decisions regarding their children's welfare.
But that isn't brainwashing. That is blind acceptance of culture and to willingly be blind to the dangers that are out their for you child is parental neglect.
Nothing more nothing less.
Rarely seen at the Nuremberg trials too, but there were a very few occasions when the accused wept and begged to be put to death for their crimes. The usual human response, though, is somewhat different.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 10:32:22 AM
Quote from: ""Niles""
First of all, long term isolation and confinement is bad, and that's simply common sense. I'm not going to bark on command and find studies to back that up, because not everyone on the sidelines is a fucking idiot like you.Kids have been doing fine for centuries being confined to 1 room school houses, public school facilities, boarding schools….some of the worlds better scholars attended school away from home.
Quote from: ""Niles""
Secondly, you need to show some proof that a plathora[sic] of program kids are "flooding" the top schools of America, especially in light of how Ivy Ridge got its ass kicked somewhat recently in regards to their bullshit diplomas.
Well, I cant speak to Ivy ridge, but lets grab a TBS…say…. Academy at swift river… they have a record of 100% college acceptance into the students first and second choice of schools, Here are few colleges that accepted ASR graduates:
Agnes Scott College, GA
Albion College, MI*
Alfred University, NY
Allegheny College, PA*
American Int College, MA
Arcadia Univ, Canada*
Arizona State University
Assumption College, MA*
Auburn University, AL
Bard College, NY*
Bates College, ME*
Berklee College of Music, MA*
Bloomsburg Univ, PA
Boston College, MA*
CA State Univ/Northridge
Carnegie Mellon Univ, PA*
Centre College, KY
Champlain College, VT*
Clark University, MA*
Colgate University, NY*
College of the Atlantic, ME*
Colorado State Univ, CO*
Connecticut College, CT
C.W. Post University, NY
Davis and Elkins, WV
Dean College, MA
Denison University, OH
Dickinson College, PA
Drexel University, PA*
Drury College, MO*
Earlham College, IN
Eckerd University, FL
Elmira College, NY*
Elms College, MA
Eugene Lang/New School
University, NY*
Evergreen State, WA
Florida Atlantic Univ, FL*
Fordham University, NY*
Franklin & Marshall, PA
Franklin Pierce Coll, NH
Gannon University, PA
George Washington U, DC*
Green Mountain College, VT
Guilford College, NC
Hampshire College, MA
Hartwick College, NY*
Hobart and William Smith, NY*
Hofstra University, NY*
Indiana University, IN
Iona University, NY*
Ithaca College, NY*
James Madison Univ, VA*
Johnson & Wales College, RI*
Juniata College, PA
Kenyon College, OH
Lawrence University, WI
Lewis & Clark, OR
Lynn University, FL*
Manhattanville College, NY
Marist College, NY
Marlboro College, VT*
Maryland Institute of Art, MD
Marymount College, CA*
Menlo College, CA
Mercyhurst College, PA
Millersville University, PA
Millsaps College, MS
Stetson University, FL*
Syracuse University, NY*
Temple University, PA
Union College, NY*
University of Arizona
Univ of CA, San Diego*
Univ of CA, Santa Barbara
Univ of Colorado, CO*
University of Connecticut
University of Denver, CO*
University of Hartford, CT
University of Massachusetts*
Univ of New Hampshire*
Univ of Northern Arizona
University of North Florida
University of Pittsburgh
Univ of Puget Sound, WA
Univ of Redlands, CA*
Univ of Rhode Island, RI
Univ of Rochester, NY*
University of South Florida
University of Texas (Austin)*
University of Vermont*
Ursinus College, PA*
Valparaiso University, IN*
Villa Julie College, MD
Warren Wilson Univ, NC
Washington College, MD
Washington & Jefferson, PA*
Westchester University, PA
Wheelock College, MA
Wheaton College, MA*
Whitman College, WA*
Whittier College, CA
Willamette University, OR
Wilson College, PA
Wittenberg University
But wait a minute, based on your definition, wouldn’t sending a child to an institution of higher learning be even further abusive? Guess we should nail down the definition a little better.
Quote from: ""Niles""
Thirdly, I've only seen evidence of shitty educations at programs, if any at allWell, there you go, happy to clear up that misconception.
Quote
Fourthly, how am I offering a lifetime on the streets with no education? Did I ever say don't offer schooling or to keep them out of school? I said keep them out of programs! That would make it a lot easier to go to school!
Many times that is the choice, if the child isn’t attending school because of issues they are having or refuse to go.
...
Post by: Che Gookin on October 10, 2007, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
No wait! It's both!Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""I think Ginger you are mistaking my op for something different. I was comparing the lack of Nazis in Germany to the lack of parental responsibility in the program parent population.
After the war there wasn't but 2 nazis left in germany.
On fornits and the rest of the world how many parents have genuinely said, "I screwed up by not doing my very best to protect my child from a dangerous programme."
You just rarely see it.
Most of the time they claim brainwashing or bad advice. Now I can agree to some extent with you that their is a definite cultural trend amongst the American population that leads people to make some seriously absurd decisions regarding their children's welfare.
But that isn't brainwashing. That is blind acceptance of culture and to willingly be blind to the dangers that are out their for you child is parental neglect.
Nothing more nothing less.
Rarely seen at the Nuremberg trials too, but there were a very few occasions when the accused wept and begged to be put to death for their crimes. The usual human response, though, is somewhat different.
You are so right the usual human response is to avoid taking some responsibility for your screw ups. For example, the majority of the parents I dealt with over four years clearly were the problem. Their children were the victims of their total lack of parenting skills. As a result of this poor parenting these kids are punished, and with a good percentage of those parents taking a measure of joy from the thought that their kids are being punished, by shipping them off to a duckfarm.
What is the end result? The parents have been spinning it away on their children, the programme, or the tooth fairy.
Well guess what...
To hell with the parents they are for the most part complete losers anyway.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 11:50:19 AM
Quote
SHITHEAD Parent Manifesto:
Parents I will only be nice to you to help win your child free of whatever program you incarcerated them in.
Parents I will only continue to be nice if you refrain from sending your child to a second programme and apologize to your child for his or her wrongful incarceration.
Parents I will only be nice if you take it upon yourself to address your total lack of parenting skills which more than likely resulted in your child's struggles in the first place.
Parents I will no longer fall for this flimsy excuse of you claiming brain-washing. Brain-washing is an unwilling process that involves a great deal more than just a few phone calls and seminars. In all reality what you experienced is your own sadism, gullibility, or ignorance.
Some of you parents have taken it upon yourselves to break your kids free of the programmes in a very short span of time and have admitted your mistakes. My hat goes off to you and you will retain my good will.
The rest of you parent let it be known that from this day forward I now fully support any legislation that calls for the charging of parents for child abuse for sending your child to an abusive programme.
what is so bad about this anyway? Given some of the crap on fornits this comes across as fairly reasonable. I guess some of these parents need to learn to read a little better.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteSHITHEAD Parent Manifesto:
Parents I will only be nice to you to help win your child free of whatever program you incarcerated them in.
Parents I will only continue to be nice if you refrain from sending your child to a second programme and apologize to your child for his or her wrongful incarceration.
Parents I will only be nice if you take it upon yourself to address your total lack of parenting skills which more than likely resulted in your child's struggles in the first place.
Parents I will no longer fall for this flimsy excuse of you claiming brain-washing. Brain-washing is an unwilling process that involves a great deal more than just a few phone calls and seminars. In all reality what you experienced is your own sadism, gullibility, or ignorance.
Some of you parents have taken it upon yourselves to break your kids free of the programmes in a very short span of time and have admitted your mistakes. My hat goes off to you and you will retain my good will.
The rest of you parent let it be known that from this day forward I now fully support any legislation that calls for the charging of parents for child abuse for sending your child to an abusive programme.
what is so bad about this anyway? Given some of the crap on fornits this comes across as fairly reasonable. I guess some of these kids just need to learn to read a little better.
SHITHEAD Kids Manifesto:
Children I will always be nice to you to help get yourself free of whatever trouble you get yourself into
Child I will always continue to be nice if you refrain from self destruction.
Children I will only be nice if you take it upon yourself to address your total lack of disrespect for yourself and your family which more than likely resulted in your separating yourself from your family.
Child I will no longer fall for this flimsy excuse of you claiming abuse. Abuse involves a great deal more than just a losing a few phone calls and attending seminars. In all reality what you experienced is your own sadism, gullibility, or ignorance.
Some of you kids have taken it upon yourselves to apply yourselves to the programs in a very short span of time and have admitted your mistakes. My hat goes off to you and you will retain my good will.
The rest of you kids let it be known that from this day forward I now fully support any legislation that calls for the mandatory protection of the family unit as a whole and any one member who threatens the viability of the family unit will have to be dealt with separately from the rest of the family in an attempt to bring the family back together.
what is so bad about this anyway? Given some of the crap on fornits this comes across as fairly reasonable. I guess some of these kids just need to learn to read a little better.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 10, 2007, 12:40:52 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Well whenever the who sounds in I know I'm on the right track.
Congrats Pitbull Mom and Buzzkill you both fail horridly based on association via the who.
I have absolutely no association with The Who.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:18:43 PM
Every parent who sends their kid off to a therapeutic boarding school should be charged with child endangerment and child abuse. If the kid is fucked up, the parents did it. You can bank on that. If the kid isn't fucked up, as happens all to often in divorce custody disputes, the parent sending the kid to one of these programs should be staked out over a den of ants after having had every bone in their body broken with a hammer.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:20:45 PM
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
If the kids are fucked up, you can bet it was because the parents are fucked up worse. Any parent that sends their kid off to one of these therapeutic boarding schools or residential therapeutic facilities is admitting that they, as a parent, are fucked up big time and do not deserve to be allowed to be parents.
Every parent who sends their kid off to a therapeutic boarding school should be charged with child endangerment and child abuse. If the kid is fucked up, the parents did it. You can bank on that. If the kid isn't fucked up, as happens all to often in divorce custody disputes, the parent sending the kid to one of these programs should be staked out over a den of ants after having had every bone in their body broken with a hammer.
If the parents are fucked up, you can bet it was because the kids are fucked up worse. Any kid that needs to go to one of these therapeutic boarding schools or residential therapeutic facilities is admitting that they, as a child, are fucked up big time and do not deserve to be allowed to be part of the family.
Every kid who goes off to a therapeutic boarding school should be charged with family endangerment and abuse. If the parent is fucked up, the kids did it. You can bank on that. If the parent isn't fucked up, as happens all to often in stable families where the kids abide by family rules, the kid who refuses to attend one of these programs should be staked out over a den of ants after having had every bone in their body broken with a hammer.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:47:10 PM
This man wants control of your children, etc.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:06:04 PM
Most parents love their children more thanthey love themselves.Maybe not all,most do.
Please be forgiving. You will know what its like someday. One day the kid is happy ,the next he's failing school, smoking crack and looking zoned out. Scary!
Hopefully you do a better job than I did. We do learn from our mistakes.
I agree Programs are NOT the answer. Who knew!
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:06:31 PM
Most parents love their children more thanthey love themselves.Maybe not all,most do.
Please be forgiving. You will know what its like someday. One day the kid is happy ,the next he's failing school, smoking crack and looking zoned out. Scary!
Hopefully you do a better job than I did. We do learn from our mistakes.
I agree Programs are NOT the answer. Who knew!
Post by: ChristineMarie on October 10, 2007, 02:15:13 PM
As a mother of 5 ranging from 20 years to 21 months. Survivor of Straight and a few other programs.
I hardly think it is fair to make a blanket statement like that about anyone seeking help for there child.
The problem is as with everything in this consumer driven society we live in; is MONEY is the bottom line. To make money these corps. hire huge and very well educated ( Not meaning intelligence) just credentials Marketing firms to do just that, market the agenda. Their Agenda. To fill beds. Just google Troubled teen and se what you get. i know preachin to the choir....
No parent says "I am so messed up and have messed my kid up so I am going to send them away to a Treatment Center". Maybe place them with Family, Foster Care or a Ward of the State. But Not a treatment center.
These treatment Centers prey on Parents emotions that are usually worn thread bare by the time they even begin to consider placement. And the decision is usually helped along fron the public school sector. Johny seems more active then normal take him to his doc. for some eval. and meds. Johnny isn't doing well in class let's put him in an OHI class. Johnny doesn't get along well with others, might I suggest you meet with the IEP Team and come up with a plan. Johnny might be a harm to himself or others, we know of a facility that can help you. Don't worry his IEP or FAPT will pay for it. Do you see??????
Most parents look at these as boarding School situations and think they are doing the best by there child, but unfortunately for the kids they have not done all their homework on both sides. They only read all the pomp and circumstance instead of getting real references from actual families. A pre released ready to go list saying to call so and so.
I know because I have one of these kids. I have looked at options, I have one councelor for him that recommends wilderness camp. Will I do it, no.
have I probably messed up as a parent? You bet. Do I have their best interest and pursuit at happiness at the forfront of everyhting I do for them? You bet! Will they always be happy with every decision I make for them. Heck no.
I think the main focus should be getting the word about the truth to the ones that make all the recomendations to the parents. Phys. Counselors, School Guidance Coun. IEP Teams, FAPT Teams. use your voice, but constructivly to be taken seriously.
~~~~~~>Steps down from Soapbox
one more thing.promise
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord Ephesians 6:4
If more parents would remember this and not react so quickly whether in anger or from suggestion of others. And rely on what they know to be right. They might find out they knew what to do all along.
~Chris
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 03:17:11 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Well whenever the who sounds in I know I'm on the right track.
Congrats Pitbull Mom and Buzzkill you both fail horridly based on association via the who.
TSW, Neither Buzzkill or Pitbull Mom work for me directly nor indirectly.... any common opinions should be regarded as merely happenstance or a commonality of good taste or sound up bringing and nothing more.
Post by: ZenAgent on October 10, 2007, 03:26:05 PM
Quote from: ""Guest 3""
I hope you people who are harshly judging parents will remember when you too are a parent how it feels to be afraid for your kids safety. For their future. Parents are only people too.
I was never more worried about my kid then when she was IN the program.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 10, 2007, 03:38:13 PM
Why not drop the blame game and instead focus on the underlying issues and what you can do about it instead of finding entertainment over others' pain and loss. I don't see anyone making fun of survivors. Your situation with your parents is not the same as everyone else's. The parents described in this thread should be arrested for child abuse. Assuming that every parent has that same mentility is beyond ludicrous.
I know, as do my family and friends, and all the other people that were concerned about my son's disability, that I was not a deadbeat mom, and that's all that counts. I don't particularly care about anyone else's opinion.
What I'm doing to help get the abuse stories out is: radio interviews about the GAO hearing relative to my son's death and other cases of neglect and abuse, sending press releases, contacting members of the committee with answers to some of their questions, pressuring Utah Office of Licensing to issue sanctions in my son's death, getting his story out, filing complaints with JHACO and NATSAP. For the last week, my fax machine has been humming, alerting the committe members to survivor's stories, giving the committe members ideas on questions they should ask, etc etc.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 03:38:41 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""Guest 3""I hope you people who are harshly judging parents will remember when you too are a parent how it feels to be afraid for your kids safety. For their future. Parents are only people too.
I was never more worried about my kid then when she was IN the program.
Oh boy, you were fortunate... I remember being scared out of my wits some nights when my daughter didnt come home and didnt know where she was. That was a level of worry I would never wish on any parent and would never want to repeat myself.
Turns out I had good reason for worry.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 03:52:05 PM
Post by: ChristineMarie on October 10, 2007, 04:08:35 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 04:26:01 PM
PBmom don't take it personally, you are not like the parents I've heard about to the best of my knowledge. Trust me, many of the folks here have good reasons to hold their parent responsible. Not addressing a parent's role in this is naive. Also just because some may want to talk about this issue on fornits does not mean that they are not working as hard, if not harder, then you on ending abuse in programs.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
I think the point in regards to this topic is that after a certain point some parents must be held responsible. In cases where parents have been given the information and do nothing, when after program they learn that their child has been abused and choose to deny it or play the victim to AVOID guilt, when parents blame the child for being placed in an abusive program, and of course the parent that's just evil... I could go on but obviously some parents are as responsible as the program for abuse, not all but some.
PBmom don't take it personally, you are not like the parents I've heard about to the best of my knowledge. Trust me, many of the folks here have good reasons to hold their parent responsible. Not addressing a parent's role in this is naive. Also just because some may want to talk about this issue on fornits does not mean that they are not working as hard, if not harder, then you on ending abuse in programs.
I think what is difficult for new parents coming here is to determine which programs are good and which are bad. Fornits seems to categorize them all into one bucket (as bad) when in fact we know thousands (and the vast majority) of kids who graduate from these boarding schools do very well. The parents can find this out by talking to parents who had children in the program and by calling many facilities (which is difficult at best), but they cant find that out here on fornits...so yes, parents who send their kids to abusive programs must be held responsible because they didnt do enough homework, but we could make their jobs alot more easier if we helped them choose the path for their child and point out the more abusive programs.
why doesnt anyone want to help out, but only want to criticize?
Post by: ChristineMarie on October 10, 2007, 05:06:04 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""I think the point in regards to this topic is that after a certain point some parents must be held responsible. In cases where parents have been given the information and do nothing, when after program they learn that their child has been abused and choose to deny it or play the victim to AVOID guilt, when parents blame the child for being placed in an abusive program, and of course the parent that's just evil... I could go on but obviously some parents are as responsible as the program for abuse, not all but some.
PBmom don't take it personally, you are not like the parents I've heard about to the best of my knowledge. Trust me, many of the folks here have good reasons to hold their parent responsible. Not addressing a parent's role in this is naive. Also just because some may want to talk about this issue on fornits does not mean that they are not working as hard, if not harder, then you on ending abuse in programs.
I think what is difficult for new parents coming here is to determine which programs are good and which are bad. Fornits seems to categorize them all into one bucket (as bad) when in fact we know thousands (and the vast majority) of kids who graduate from these boarding schools do very well. The parents can find this out by talking to parents who had children in the program and by calling many facilities (which is difficult at best), but they cant find that out here on fornits...so yes, parents who send their kids to abusive programs must be held responsible because they didnt do enough homework, but we could make their jobs alot more easier if we helped them choose the path for their child and point out the more abusive programs.
why doesnt anyone want to help out, but only want to criticize?
Fornits has nothing to do with the issue of parental responsibility. The folks here present facts about programs that parents are free to believe or not. It's not anyone's job here to convince them. They must take responsibility when it comes to sending their kid away to accept or reject the information here, or else where.
When we criticize programs like the one PBMom sent her son to you are the first one to holler about how unfair we are and how we misrepresent the facts. Her son is dead, killed in a way that has been covered many times on fornits. She called the program and they sold her a lie. You want to complain about not being able to get accurate information? Start with them, the programs.
It's folks like you and NATSAP that actively try to obscure the truth in an effort to trick moms like PBMom into a false sense of security. Once the worse happens they just turn into "Nosy individuals", statistics, to be swept under the rug.
Fornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 05:36:54 PM
You cannot find any generally accepted scientific evidence that supports a claim that residential therapeutic facilities or therapeutic boarding schools are effective. You can readily find reports from the US Surgeon General and many others that say these programs are harmful.
Look at what TheWho says, and figure the truth is probably the opposite.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 05:56:38 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Thewho is an industry shill. You cannot recommend parents to a good program because there aren't any. You can point parents to programs that do not physically abuse their children, but there are no programs that don't emotionally abuse them.
You cannot find any generally accepted scientific evidence that supports a claim that residential therapeutic facilities or therapeutic boarding schools are effective. You can readily find reports from the US Surgeon General and many others that say these programs are harmful.
Look at what TheWho says, and figure the truth is probably the opposite.
That sums up my point...... there are thousands of kids who do well each year in TBS's around the country (Even George Miller recognized this fact, just this afternoon), yet people like you and many on fornits would rather see a child fail or do poorly rather than help a parent find the best placement for their child and will go as far as to lie to them saying no help exists... this is a tragedy in itself.
It appears Honzo doesnt want any part of the responsibility either...easier to just let the kids suffer and stick by painting all the schools one color...easier to keep track of your positions.....Hmmm
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Fornits has nothing to do with the issue of parental responsibility. The folks here present facts about programs that parents are free to believe or not. It's not anyone's job here to convince them. They must take responsibility when it comes to sending their kid away to accept or reject the information here, or else where.
When we criticize programs like the one PBMom sent her son to you are the first one to holler about how unfair we are and how we misrepresent the facts. Her son is dead, killed in a way that has been covered many times on fornits. She called the program and they sold her a lie. You want to complain about not being able to get accurate information? Start with them, the programs.
It's folks like you and NATSAP that actively try to obscure the truth in an effort to trick moms like PBMom into a false sense of security. Once the worse happens they just turn into "Nosy individuals", statistics, to be swept under the rug.
Fornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""Thewho is an industry shill. You cannot recommend parents to a good program because there aren't any. You can point parents to programs that do not physically abuse their children, but there are no programs that don't emotionally abuse them.
You cannot find any generally accepted scientific evidence that supports a claim that residential therapeutic facilities or therapeutic boarding schools are effective. You can readily find reports from the US Surgeon General and many others that say these programs are harmful.
Look at what TheWho says, and figure the truth is probably the opposite.
That sums up my point...... there are thousands of kids who do well each year in TBS's around the country (Even George Miller recognized this fact, just this afternoon), yet people like you and many on fornits would rather see a child fail or do poorly rather than help a parent find the best placement for their child and will go as far as to lie to them saying no help exists... this is a tragedy in itself.
It appears Honzo doesnt want any part of the responsibility either...easier to just let the kids suffer and stick by painting all the schools one color...easier to keep track of your positions.....Hmmm
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 06:06:03 PM
I think what is difficult for new parents coming here is to determine which programs are good and which are bad. Fornits seems to categorize them all into one bucket (as bad) when in fact we know thousands (and the vast majority) of kids who graduate from these boarding schools do very well. The parents can find this out by talking to parents who had children in the program and by calling many facilities (which is difficult at best), but they cant find that out here on fornits...so yes, parents who send their kids to abusive programs must be held responsible because they didnt do enough homework, but we could make their jobs alot more easier if we helped them choose the path for their child and point out the more abusive programs.
why doesnt anyone want to help out, but only want to criticize?
That is a load of crap. You can't get an honest response out of program parents, to hear my mother tell it, she saved me by sending me to the hell farm. You need to get a grip. You want the truth about abuse, ask the victim, not the co-abuser.[/b]
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 06:08:06 PM
Quote
Fornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
If you claim to have passion and truth why dont you point out the better programs (As George Miller pointed out) where thousands of kids do well each year and helping out some of these parents who read here instead of lieing to them and saying none exist?
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 06:08:55 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 06:09:50 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
QuoteFornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
If you claim to have passion and truth why dont you point out the better programs (As George Miller pointed out) where thousands of kids do well each year and helping out some of these parents who read here instead of lieing to them and saying none exist?
Because it's irrelevant, as Miller pointed out, to the issue of abuse. Miller never said anything about thousands of kids doing well, he said he was sure some did well. The only thousands mentioned were the thousands of complaints received by the GAO alleging abuse and death.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 06:15:42 PM
There is no scientific evidence that residential therapeutic facilities help more than they harm. All of the available evidence points the other way.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Quote from: ""TheWho""QuoteFornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
If you claim to have passion and truth why dont you point out the better programs (As George Miller pointed out) where thousands of kids do well each year and helping out some of these parents who read here instead of lieing to them and saying none exist?
Because it's irrelevant, as Miller pointed out, to the issue of abuse.
Not to the kids who need help and could be helped if some people here would look past themselves and put down individual vendettas and help some other parents out.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 06:19:09 PM
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 06:25:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""Quote from: ""TheWho""QuoteFornits, unlike the industry, never claims to be all knowing. Folks here only have passion and the truth of their experience. If you don't like what you hear go back to the fairy tale you claim is so wonderful.
If you claim to have passion and truth why dont you point out the better programs (As George Miller pointed out) where thousands of kids do well each year and helping out some of these parents who read here instead of lieing to them and saying none exist?
Because it's irrelevant, as Miller pointed out, to the issue of abuse.
Not to the kids who need help and could be helped if some people here would look past themselves and put down individual vendettas and help some other parents out.
We help parents out but we are not Edcons, we don't make referrals for a fee, and again this board is about children abused in programs. It's not about kids with problems, although many here will offer up suggestions that some parents choose to dismiss because it's not the sure thing they want to hear.
It's the programs, with all of their shiny promises, that you need to piss on for lying to parents.
Post by: Rachael on October 10, 2007, 06:25:41 PM
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There are kids who do well in programs despite the program. If you put 14,000 kids a year into a program, some of them will make it out the other end without being screwed up. It is recognized that many of the problems of adolescence are solved by time. There is no evidence that anything done in these programs actually helps the kids.
There is no scientific evidence that residential therapeutic facilities help more than they harm. All of the available evidence points the other way.
Actually all the evidence points towards the kids getting the help they need and Yes, some will die and some will be abused... I think what the comittee would like to address are those who are dieing and getting abused, but lets not stop the majority of the other kids from getting help in the process.
The panel today was set up to focus on those children who are abused and were killed, not on the ones who benefit from the schools, so they were not discussed, as we would expect.
The panel recognizes the benefits of the industry because they have seen the results, what they are concerned with are those schools which are tolerating abuse and neglect. No one wants the industry to go away except people here on fornits.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: ""Rachael""
If an unintentional by-product of the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was someone coming to a new amazing revelation about the nature of their very soul - it would be irrelevant to the fact that thousands died. It doesn't mean it's irrelevant in and of itself - just that in the story of how thousands burned to death or experienced life-long debilitating after-effects, it has no significance.
Yes but what if 3 people need to die to prevent the bomb from dropping on hiroshima?
Are 3 deaths worth while? Should we shut down the entire industry because a percentage die? Maybe? What do we say to all the kids who can benefit from these schools, who now have no place to go?
Why not focus on preventing the 3 deaths and saving the other kids as well?
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 06:33:52 PM
Survivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids. It doesn't come with a manual. I am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering". I have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole. Wouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.
I am a survivor who was tortured in one of these programs, and I am the mother of a 19 year old son. You are either stupid or terribly gullible. There are parents all over the place that get off on their children's suffering, if there weren't, we wouldn't need a department of the government set up for the protection of such children. My father is a sadist and a child rapist, so I know of which I speak on a very personal level. A parent who sends their child off without thoroughly investigating a facility and all allegations of abuse associated with them is culpable for any abuse that should happen to their child. I will agree with you that there is no manual, but that is not an excuse for negligence.
Post by: Rachael on October 10, 2007, 06:35:11 PM
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 06:37:15 PM
Quote
In the vast majority of cases, these kids don't need help in the first place.
you dont know that, and the treatment is effective for most kids.
Post by: Rachael on October 10, 2007, 06:39:50 PM
Post by: Rachael on October 10, 2007, 06:42:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
QuoteIn the vast majority of cases, these kids don't need help in the first place.
you dont know that, and the treatment is effective for most kids.
Bullshit!
And you know it too! You do not have a single piece of evidence to prove this statement. Name one single un-biased study produced by an un-affiliated research body backing you up.
I dare you!
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 06:43:30 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 06:54:40 PM
If your kid needs help, don't send him to a residential therapeutic facility looking for it. For that matter, go get help yourself first. If your kid is fucked up, you are the one that did it. If you can't see that, get help from someone who can help you see it.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
Quote from: ""Rachael""
I do know that. I was one of those kids - and 28 of the 30 I was in with didn't need help either.
That is your un-educated experience of a few kids out of tens of thousands. Society says otherwise. the majority of the kids benefit from the programs they go to.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 07:15:50 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
There is no generally accepted scientific evidence that residential therapeutic facilities help any of the kids they treat. All of the available evidence say that the best claim therapeutic boarding schools can make is that they didn't harm the kids too much.
If your kid needs help, don't send him to a residential therapeutic facility looking for it. For that matter, go get help yourself first. If your kid is fucked up, you are the one that did it. If you can't see that, get help from someone who can help you see it.
Just call up the schools and ask to speak with some parents and ask a lot of very hard questions about their kids. You will see that the schools are very effective
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 07:19:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Rachael""I do know that. I was one of those kids - and 28 of the 30 I was in with didn't need help either.
That is your un-educated experience of a few kids out of tens of thousands. Society says otherwise. the majority of the kids benefit from the programs they go to.
Uneducated, you must be talking about program staff....
Rachel is frighteningly smart, she is the only person I would seriously ask to build me a lightsaber and expect to get it.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 07:25:48 PM
There is no other way for people with marginal educations to make as much money as they can make out of therapeutic boarding schools. The owners of these therapeutic boarding schools can make over $1 million a year off of them. If you are looking for help for your kid, look somewhere else.
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Rachael""If an unintentional by-product of the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was someone coming to a new amazing revelation about the nature of their very soul - it would be irrelevant to the fact that thousands died. It doesn't mean it's irrelevant in and of itself - just that in the story of how thousands burned to death or experienced life-long debilitating after-effects, it has no significance.
Yes but what if 3 people need to die to prevent the bomb from dropping on hiroshima?
Are 3 deaths worth while? Should we shut down the entire industry because a percentage die? Maybe? What do we say to all the kids who can benefit from these schools, who now have no place to go?
Why not focus on preventing the 3 deaths and saving the other kids as well?
Miller said that 3 deaths were too many. As any sane individual knows, legitimte therapy doesn't expose clients to the risk of death.
Options to the industry were also suggested- local services. Miller doesn't want kids crossing state lines. Kids should be close to home so their parents can check on them frequently, unannounced.
Local wrap around services is a good place to start.
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 07:51:37 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Industry shills pumping for more business. These programs are only after money. They make $1 billion a year off maybe 12,000 to 14,000 kids. There is no evidence that these programs help any of the kids subjected to them. Kids survive the programs, they don't benefit from them.
There is no other way for people with marginal educations to make as much money as they can make out of therapeutic boarding schools. The owners of these therapeutic boarding schools can make over $1 million a year off of them. If you are looking for help for your kid, look somewhere else.
FWIW, NATSAP claimed today that 16,000 kids go through their 180 programs per year.
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 10, 2007, 07:53:24 PM
Quote from: "lorrispickelmire"
Pitbull Mom wrote:
Survivors who have not yet become parents will never understand the complexities of parenting until they have their own kids. It doesn't come with a manual. I am an involved mom with active kids. I have NEVER met a parent yet who "gets off on their kid's suffering". I have never met a parent who just decides to send their kid to a hellhole. Wouldn't even occur to 99% of parents. A parent would have to be on the emotional level of Jeffery Dahmer to even entertain such thoughts.QuoteI am a survivor who was tortured in one of these programs, and I am the mother of a 19 year old son. You are either stupid or terribly gullible.
I am neitherQuoteThere are parents all over the place that get off on their children's suffering, if there weren't, we wouldn't need a department of the government set up for the protection of such children.True, but those aren't the parents we were discussing. We were discussing parents like myself. To use your analogy, there are parents all over the place who love their kids, provide a warm nurturing environment, and their kids still end up with severe emotional problems, often due to mental health problems. If they didn't we wouldn't need child psychiatrists.QuoteMy father is a sadist and a child rapist, so I know of which I speak on a very personal level.
I'm sorry for that. Mine was too, so I too speak on a very personal level.QuoteA parent who sends their child off without thoroughly investigating a facility and all allegations of abuse associated with them is culpable for any abuse that should happen to their child.
I'ld like to see your statistics on the % of parents that don't thoroghly investigate a facility. Most do. I did. The facility where my son died was clean, good food, mostly good employees, phones, was licensed, no reports of abuse, yada yada yada. That is no guarantee that an abuse situation can't develop.QuoteI will agree with you that there is no manual, but that is not an excuse for negligence.
I did not say that not having a parent manual was an excuse for negligence. What I said was that it's black and white thinking to say that parents bear all the repsonsibility for everything that is wrong with the teen industry. Parents whose kids end up abused, or worse-dead, are filled with huge remorse. Negligence is the responsiblity of the persons dishing out the abuse. Obviously parents who knowingly put their child in danger are negligent, but I sincerely doubt that you have any proof that most parents who have put their kids in treatment programs did it knowingly. I'm not defending negligent parents. I'm just saying you can't lump them all into the same bucket.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 08:17:34 PM
I find it best to speak to the readers, for the most part, who are potentially more open minded.
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 08:32:25 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Just call up the schools and ask to speak with some parents and ask a lot of very hard questions about their kids. You will see that the schools are very effective
Is this your idea of peer reviewed clinical research? Just call up some parents and ask some hard questions about their kids?
While you're at it, why not ask these same parents for their thoughts on which new drugs are most likely to cure cancer?!
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 08:34:34 PM
You are right about some things you said, and I do have a tendency to see it in black and white. I am a survivor of a home that was known for abuse, information was readily available and the parents who chose to place their kids in that particular home were absolutely wrong to do so. I don't know about the facility you placed your son in but I do sympathize your loss. I am not saying wanting to get help for their kids makes parents bad parents. I feel as a society we have come to think of our children as problems, and their are a lot of self-absorbed people who are just flat out throwing their children away. Several of the ladies that were in the home I was in were dropped off knowing that their parents were never coming back. They were given to the home by their parents knowing that they were at the mercy of the staff until they were 18. So you are right, the percentages are skewed among the survivors of that particular program.
I do sympathize your loss of your child, and I hope you will accept my apology, I should not lump everyone together with my own parents. Please also keep an open mind regarding how many parents are just willing to throw their kids away, because they are out there and that is where all the anger toward parents comes from. You can never absolutely protect your children, but a lot of parents don't even try. I know you are not one of these, but they do exist.
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 08:53:23 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Sigh.... Its difficult to get people to understand that life/situations are not all black and white, Pitbull mom....everything is lumped into one bucket here....all the parents are the same...all the schools are the same...all the kids are abused...all the staff are abusive. I imagine it makes it easier for them to function as a group so they dont have varying opinions that conflict with one another. If they admitted that one parent made a good decision to get their child help they would have to open their minds to the possibility that there are possibly more and that would blow their entire thought base.
I find it best to speak to the readers, for the most part, who are potentially more open minded.
The two programs you have experience with are known abusive programs. ASR one of the most renegade mavericks of the bunch, staunch in their refusal to submit to state regulations. If the two you support are abusive, how can you possibly claim that the majority (of which you have no knowledge) are ethical?
Post by: Che Gookin on October 10, 2007, 09:20:03 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
I think the point in regards to this topic is that after a certain point some parents must be held responsible. In cases where parents have been given the information and do nothing, when after program they learn that their child has been abused and choose to deny it or play the victim to AVOID guilt, when parents blame the child for being placed in an abusive program, and of course the parent that's just evil... I could go on but obviously some parents are as responsible as the program for abuse, not all but some.
No the point of this topic is to introduce my Shithead Parent Manifesto. The rest is trolling by the Who and a few parents whining and crying. Also a few survivors have spoken up as well in a very exemplary fashion.
Well done you brave few.
Quote
SHITHEAD Parent Manifesto:
Parents I will only be nice to you to help win your child free of whatever program you incarcerated them in.
Parents I will only continue to be nice if you refrain from sending your child to a second programme and apologize to your child for his or her wrongful incarceration.
Parents I will only be nice if you take it upon yourself to address your total lack of parenting skills which more than likely resulted in your child's struggles in the first place.
Parents I will no longer fall for this flimsy excuse of you claiming brain-washing. Brain-washing is an unwilling process that involves a great deal more than just a few phone calls and seminars. In all reality what you experienced is your own sadism, gullibility, or ignorance.
Some of you parents have taken it upon yourselves to break your kids free of the programmes in a very short span of time and have admitted your mistakes. My hat goes off to you and you will retain my good will.
The rest of you parent let it be known that from this day forward I now fully support any legislation that calls for the charging of parents for child abuse for sending your child to an abusive programme.
I've seen the crappy parents come by the dozens. They drop their kids and run. They claim their kids are out of control!!
OH NO!!
They fall prey to the slick sales talk of the industry. They ignore their kids pleas when they get letters revealing the truth about happy camp!
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.
PB Mom if any of this was directed at you I would have called you out in the original post. I'm saying what I feel from my own personal experiences. I've seen the parents come and go and the one strongest truism you will find from programme to programme goes like this:
To find out what is wrong with the kid you have to meet the parents.
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 09:33:16 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""TheWho""Sigh.... Its difficult to get people to understand that life/situations are not all black and white, Pitbull mom....everything is lumped into one bucket here....all the parents are the same...all the schools are the same...all the kids are abused...all the staff are abusive. I imagine it makes it easier for them to function as a group so they dont have varying opinions that conflict with one another. If they admitted that one parent made a good decision to get their child help they would have to open their minds to the possibility that there are possibly more and that would blow their entire thought base.
I find it best to speak to the readers, for the most part, who are potentially more open minded.
The two programs you have experience with are known abusive programs. ASR one of the most renegade mavericks of the bunch, staunch in their refusal to submit to state regulations. If the two you support are abusive, how can you possibly claim that the majority (of which you have no knowledge) are ethical?
Oh, come on Deb, spit it out you always beat around the bush or hover… Here, I will say it for you “They are all abusive programs dam it, all 180 of them!!! And 16,000 children are abused or killed every year, every single one of them!!â€
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 09:56:50 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.
Have you suggested this to Miller, or any other politician? Where does one begin to get such a law enacted?
Quote
To find out what is wrong with the kid you have to meet the parents.
I think this is frequently true. My ex wouldn't relent even when he reluctantly agreed to a mediation in which I presented documentation of the deaths that had occured in wilderness programs and plead with him to take our son out of Ridge Creek, Hidden Lake Academy's unlicensed wilderness (boot camp) program.
He said it wasn't a concern for him. It didn't worry him that they weren't licensed and seemed disinterested in the deaths. The therapist conducting the mediation was appalled.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 11, 2007, 12:21:37 AM
All this hype about congress is at best pinning false hopes on the regulation of programmes. Such regulations that in the past that have consistently failed to address or protect the safety of the children.
The only thing I see coming out of it is awareness. This dovetails nicely with my long term view of properly educating the populace to the perils of the programmes. With time, patience, and persistence I believe that programmes will eventually fade out of existence due to the perponderance of information that works against them.
No laws will get rid of them or even come close to halting the abuse.
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 11, 2007, 12:41:43 AM
Regulating something intrinsically wrong and rotten to the core is like saying guard posts outside concentration camps keep them from being abusive.
You have the fix the problem and the problem is the premise of a program itself.
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2007, 03:17:44 PM
Post by: psy on October 12, 2007, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: ""a parent""
We adopted my son (and his sister) when he was 11 and she was 5. He lived with his birth mother, an addict until he was 7. He came to the attention of CYF after he threw a desk at his kindergarten teacher. They monitored the situation, offered his birth mother help and support, but when she left him alone with no food for 3 days with his 18 month old sister, they put them in foster care. The first foster family was great and our son and duaghter thrived there, but birth mom entered a treatment program that allowed her to have her kids with her and so they went. Our sone had to leave after he strangled a boy and trashed his room over a borrowed gameboy. The 2d foster home was not good, but when birht mom dropped out of the treatment center and back on crack, our daughter joined her brother there. Six months later they were with us. Our son is now 16, 6 foot and 180 pounds. The first 9 months he was with us we got 1-2 calls a week from the public special ed school he was in telling us about his violent episodes-tossing desks, throwing hot coffee at aids, punching other students, etc. His therapist, who had worked with him for 3 years, convinced us it wasn't Andrew it was the school environment. We moved him, but then the violence started at home, over the last 5 years he has broken furniture, ripped doors off their hinges, punched his father, come after me with a chair leg, brused his father's larynex after trying to choke him, punched out another boy at a basketball tournament, punched his best friend's father when he tried to stop him from hitting someone, threatened to kill all of us in our sleep and then kill himself, stolen from us and others, hit therapists, etc. He has been diagnosed with RAD, bi-polar and ODD. He is on meds, he has gone through a number of therapists and psychitrists, he has been hospitalized, we have gone through family therapy, he has been in state approved and regualted treatment centers that don't use restraints. Nothing has changed. We have been told not only by all the therapists and doctors, but even by our son, that we are not the cause of this, and that our rules and expectations are consistent and reasonable. Andrew says he agrees but he is angry, can't help himself, had a hard life before us and feels we should give him total freedom and supply him with all he desires to make up for that, etc. We are considering VisionQuest in Franklin PA, and we're told that while it does use wilderness therapy components, it is not a boot camp. We don't want a boot camp, we don't want our son abused, but we can't let him continue to abuse us and we want to keep him safe and out of jail and help him help himself. According to what I've read VisionQuest is JACHO approved, and has been studied by the Rand Corp and University of PA and found effective. So, if any of you have other information or suggestions please let me know.
Um. We get a lot of "parent impersonators" and your story is just a little convenient. It could appear to a cynic that you are merely trying to scare parents into not making the same decision you did (regarding avoiding placement); creating an association between keeping the kid at home and imminent failure.
In the off chance that you are a real parent:
You can believe whatever marketing materials you like. If you haven't watched the congressional hearings, I suggest you should. Some of those parents did all the "right" things too (in terms of checking up on programs), and yet their kids are still dead. There is also no scientifically validated evidence whatsoever that these places actually work, anyway, so you're basically taking a crap-shoot with your kid's life and wellbeing. The GAO testified that there have been thousands of instances of abuse and deaths in programs. I was in a program. It is not fun.
As for VisionQuest?
it has it's own forum here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=30)
So. Do due diligence and read...
Oh... You wanted a solution? A quick fix to get your kid under control? Something tangible like a pizza you pay for and order to specifications? Nope... Program won't (ethically) "help" him either. If he's as violent as you describe, most programs have policies against admission, since he could very likely, given his past history, hurt another student. They would probably accept him anyway, but if they're showing that kind of care towards other people's kids, what corners are they cutting with your own child's safety?
You could do this at home: buy a tazer and shock your kid whenever he annoys you? Laughing? It happens all the time in program, you just don't get to see it. You could use pepper spray as well, as is commonly used in some programs for control. Just spray your kid down with it when he gets out of line, or just says something you don't like. It's what they do in some programs (and the kids with chemical burns proves it). You find this insulting... you would never do such things to your kid? Then why would you permit another to do it?
If you really are a parent, take a look at Maia Szalavitz's book on recovery options (haven't read it, but i hear it's good), or talk to the kid's shrink and tell him that a residential / wilderness / program is not an option. He might need temporary hospitalization if he's an immediate threat to himself or others, but in my opinion a program would make the situation far worse.
Your kid sounds a bit impulsive as I was when I was young. Medication helped me, then I no longer needed it so I went off it.
Quote
We have been told not only by all the therapists and doctors, but even by our son, that we are not the cause of this, and that our rules and expectations are consistent and reasonable. Andrew says he agrees but he is angry, can't help himself, had a hard life before us and feels we should give him total freedom and supply him with all he desires to make up for that, etc.
Your son does not strike me as very logical they way you are describing him. I'd love to hear his side of the story, considering he might see things differently than you.
What rules does he object to? What money / food / etc... does he demand (and again, parents often see these things differently). Are you implying he feels "entitled" somehow?
Post by: Oz girl on October 12, 2007, 10:23:44 PM
Quote from: ""lorrispickelmire""
Pitbull Mom,
You are right about some things you said, and I do have a tendency to see it in black and white. I am a survivor of a home that was known for abuse, information was readily available and the parents who chose to place their kids in that particular home were absolutely wrong to do so. I don't know about the facility you placed your son in but I do sympathize your loss. I am not saying wanting to get help for their kids makes parents bad parents. I feel as a society we have come to think of our children as problems, and their are a lot of self-absorbed people who are just flat out throwing their children away. Several of the ladies that were in the home I was in were dropped off knowing that their parents were never coming back. They were given to the home by their parents knowing that they were at the mercy of the staff until they were 18. So you are right, the percentages are skewed among the survivors of that particular program.
I do sympathize your loss of your child, and I hope you will accept my apology, I should not lump everyone together with my own parents. Please also keep an open mind regarding how many parents are just willing to throw their kids away, because they are out there and that is where all the anger toward parents comes from. You can never absolutely protect your children, but a lot of parents don't even try. I know you are not one of these, but they do exist.
Something about this post touched me. I think this person has hit on a real issue. While i maintain that the only person with any right to hold parents accountable is their own child and not a random stranger, it does seem that programs are a frightening but logical extension of western convenience culture. it is a natural impulse to try and make life more convenient . This is a very sinister extension of such a phenomenon.
Post by: Oz girl on October 12, 2007, 10:29:23 PM
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.
All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 13, 2007, 02:40:25 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
[/i]Wandering Waygookin wrote:
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.
All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.
Personally it is in my experience that the program graduates tend to be more prone to being abusive and far more viscious than the regular staff members.
No I don't support a law making it manditory for staff to tell the truth to the parents.
I however am In full support of manditory reporting laws, which already exist, requiring witnesses of abuse towards children to report it.
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 13, 2007, 03:04:24 AM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""[/i]Wandering Waygookin wrote:
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.
All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.
Personally it is in my experience that the program graduates tend to be more prone to being abusive and far more viscious than the regular staff members.
No I don't support a law making it manditory for staff to tell the truth to the parents.
I however am In full support of manditory reporting laws, which already exist, requiring witnesses of abuse towards children to report it.
Why not?
Post by: Che Gookin on October 13, 2007, 03:11:05 AM
Who would think it? A businessman being less than honest to one of his customers???
Lords.. perish the thought.
And besides.. I'm of the convinction that the majority of the parents would be more inclined to sweep it under the rug. By keeping it out of the parents hands I believe the kids have a better chance with the legal authorities.
Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 03:12:30 AM
Who would think it? A businessman being less than honest to one of his customers???
Lords.. perish the thought.
And besides.. I'm of the convinction that the majority of the parents would be more inclined to sweep it under the rug. By keeping it out of the parents hands I believe the kids have a better chance with the legal authorities.
Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 03:16:33 AM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.
Absolutely. I recall the joy with which parents at Straight would congratulate each other on their "strength" and "commitment" and the sadistic glee they would exhibit when talking about the "consequences" that the kids would be going through. A sick bunch, those program parents. They should absolutely be held accountable for the abuses their kids suffer---for them to claim they were "brainwashed" is laughable. They are complicit in the abuse of their own children.
Post by: Oz girl on October 13, 2007, 03:22:15 AM
But if a place is new or "natsap accredited", if the child's legitimate psychiatrist recommends it or an ed con is paid a lot of money to research it, and there is not a history of abuse in the kid's family, then the parents are not the only ones responsible. While their kids possibly legitimately hold them accountable this is a matter for the family not the state.
BTW i am not surprised that you say a program graduate is likely to be brutal. They have become a true believer. By the same token i dont see that they are necessarily 100% responsible either. They are as much victim as perpetrator. With this in mind i cant see how anyone can appoint them self judge or jury and assume responsiblity for accountability. This is a complex problem with many different issues involved. it is not black and white and thus it seems pointless to go back and forth about whose fault it is when the responsiblity is shared between the program, the parent and the wider community.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 13, 2007, 06:22:37 AM
Absolutely not...
It is on this note I have to point out that the sheer perponderane of evidence against programs practically ensures that a parent is negligent by the mere action of sending their child to a program. They are further guilty of child abuse for keeping their child in a program upon discovery of the possibility that their child could and probably is being neglected or abused.
That is for the unwitting accomplice.
The sad truth is more often than you want to suspect, I suppose to maintain this pathetic atmosphere of being friendly on fornits, is parents are willing and knowing accomplices.
NO pain NO gain.. blah blah.. bullshit.
And the rest is merely blah blah blah.. whine blah.. boring shit.
Really.. I begin to wonder if that anon was right when he or she used to go around saying, "I HOPE YOUR KID KILLS YOU."
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 10:57:58 AM
To all these monster kids
It comes right back to me and it's
Signed in their parents blood
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 11:48:08 AM
Quote
Um. We get a lot of "parent impersonators" and your story is just a little convenient. It could appear to a cynic that you are merely trying to scare parents into not making the same decision you did (regarding avoiding placement); creating an association between keeping the kid at home and imminent failure.I'm not an impersonator, I'm a real parent of an 18 year old, a 16 year old and a 10 year old. I don't know what proof I can offer of this, but I'm not trying to scare parents into making any decision. I'm honestly trying to make a decision myself to help my son and keep the rest of my family safe.
Quote
In the off chance that you are a real parent:I didn't watch the hearings because I work full time, but I've followed what was said about them on NPR and searched the web, which is how I found this site and I read the GAO report. The problem with the hearings is that they seem to be focused on unregulated programs. And frankly, I was surprised about the reasons why some of those parents sent their children to those places. If my daughter was depressed over a sexual assault, the last thing I would consider doing was send her away from home. But I came on this site to ask people like you what else I should try to help my son-what would you have wanted done differently?
You can believe whatever marketing materials you like. If you haven't watched the congressional hearings, I suggest you should. Some of those parents did all the "right" things too (in terms of checking up on programs), and yet their kids are still dead. There is also no scientifically validated evidence whatsoever that these places actually work, anyway, so you're basically taking a crap-shoot with your kid's life and wellbeing. The GAO testified that there have been thousands of instances of abuse and deaths in programs. I was in a program. It is not fun.
Quote
As for VisionQuest?I did read and I didn't see anything from anyone who had actually been to VisionQuest. I did see a lot of sensationalized information garnered from other web sites though, and some of it was inaccurate. for example, I researched some of the deaths and the majority where in the 80s when a ship sank. The most recent one was from an auto accident-not abuse, and some of the other deaths weren't VisionQuest at all, but other programs.
it has it's own forum here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=30)
So. Do due diligence and read...
Quote
Oh... You wanted a solution? A quick fix to get your kid under control? Something tangible like a pizza you pay for and order to specifications? Nope... Program won't (ethically) "help" him either. If he's as violent as you describe, most programs have policies against admission, since he could very likely, given his past history, hurt another student. They would probably accept him anyway, but if they're showing that kind of care towards other people's kids, what corners are they cutting with your own child's safety?I'm not looking for a quick fix, we have spent 5 years trying to help my son learn how to control his anger. We understand why he is angry, I would be too if I'd been through what he went through before we adopted him. But if he continues to let that define his life, what then?
Quote
If you really are a parent, take a look at Maia Szalavitz's book on recovery options (haven't read it, but i hear it's good), or talk to the kid's shrink and tell him that a residential / wilderness / program is not an option. He might need temporary hospitalization if he's an immediate threat to himself or others, but in my opinion a program would make the situation far worse.He has been hospitalized, 4 times over the last 5 years and once before we adopted him. He had his nose broken during one of the hospitalization, because he started shouting down other kids during Group Therapy, was sent to time-out and when another patient asked him what happened, he hit the kid and that kid hit him back. When we saw him in the emergency room later, and asked him why he hit the kid, he said people should know better then to try to talk to him when he's mad.
Quote
Your kid sounds a bit impulsive as I was when I was young. Medication helped me, then I no longer needed it so I went off it.He's on medication. It has lessened the duration and frequency of his rages, but not the violence of them.
Quote
What rules does he object to? What money / food / etc... does he demand (and again, parents often see these things differently). Are you implying he feels "entitled" somehow?
I'm not implying it, I'm saying it outright. Yes he does feel entitled. He says he's "been dealt a lousy hand". He recently justified stealing a Nintendo DS from a neighbor of ours by saying that the kid was a "fat spoiled brat" and wouldn't miss it because his parents could just buy him another one. During an earlier family therapy session, he punched out a door and threw his sister's piggybank at us because we wouldn't end the session early and drive him to Circuit City to return his broken MP3 player.
What rules does he object to? That's the thing, in the abstract he doesn't object to any of them. We recently presented the Rules below at a Family Therapy session and he said they were fine, but that didn't stop him from kicking in a door, destroying other property and trying to attack us 2 weeks later when we confronted him about the stolen Ninetendo. Here are the Rules:
Rules of the House
We decided to write out these clear-cut rules so that we all have an understanding of what we expect. Most of these rules are to address areas where we have had problems in the past and we are writing them down so we can avoid problems in the future. Respect for yourself and others forms the basis for these rules.
1. You can only have a job during school if (a) you are not involved in an after-school activity, and (b) you are completing his school assignments on time; and (c) you are maintaining a C or better in each class.
2. During the school year you can only work on weekends.
3. Work should be within walking or biking distance, as we will not always be available to drive you to work.
4. You cannot spend your salary on anything you want. We expect you to save a portion of your salary for spending money for when you are not working, and you need our approval for any purchases over $40. In addition, you cannot use your money to buy items such as parental advisor CDs, mature games or adult videos or any other items we believe are inappropriate.
5. We will purchase items you need for school, school sports and academic activities such as school trips or clubs, but you will be responsible for your own spending money at such events.
6. If we are buying clothes its based on what we pick out. If you want to buy your own clothes, you may buy what you like as long as there are not offensive slogans or insignia.
7. We will not be giving you an allowance, but we will still expect you to contribute to the household by doing chores, as further described below. There will, however, be opportunities for you to do extra chores to earn money from us.
8. There will be no video games, TV, computer games, non-school computer use, or DVDs Monday morning through Friday afternoon. Friday after we come home from work, if all homework and chores are done, then you can have access to the TV, video games or computer, however, for video or computer games that access will be not longer than 1 hour at any one sitting. TV and DVD viewing will also be limited as appropriate-in other words, we don’t want you spending all day in front of the TV. Internet use will be monitored and we will not tolerate pornography, violent sites, internet gambling, inappropriate (bullying, violent or sexual) postings or e-mails, etc. You will not give out your own or anyone else’s personal information on the internet.
9. We can check your assignment book and homework when we get home to verify that homework is done.
10. No friends in the house when we are not home, and if you go out before we get home, you must call us to get permission and tell us where you are going and who you are meeting.
11. You cannot be a passenger in a car with another teenager without our permission. We will only give that permission after we have met the person and spoken to his or her parents.
12. When you get home from school, you can have a snack and then get right to your homework. After your homework is done, we expect you to do your chores for the day. We will put up on the refrigerator a weekly chore list which will include such things as dusting, vacuuming, laundry, cleaning your bathroom, taking out the trash, mowing and other yard work. You can earn additional money by doing certain large chores such as cleaning the windows or washing the cars.
13. For after-school snacks, you may have fruit, or crackers, or a sandwich, or cereal, or a yogurt. Ice Cream, cookies, pie, cake or candy are not to be eaten without permission. You may also have milk, water or juice if it’s from a jar-but not juice boxes as we need those for lunches. If you drink milk and you see there is not enough left for everyone to have breakfast the next morning, call one of us so we can pick up some on the way home. The same applies if you finish any other food.
14. All food must be eaten in the kitchen. There is to be no food or drink in any other room in the house without us being there and giving permission.
15. You will participate in family based therapy and any other therapy that we or your treatment team recommend. You will take your medications.
16. We have the right to check your iPod, CDs, Gameboy, video games, schoolbag and room at anytime. If we find any items that are not allowed, such as parental advisory music, we will confiscate them. If we find you have stolen anything, either from us or anyone else, we will call the police.
17. We will also call the police if we feel there is a threat to the safety of anyone in our home or a threat to our property and we will press charges. We will also call them if you use drugs or alcohol.
18. You will need our permission to go out at night, and we have the right to know where you are going, who you are going with and what you will be doing. If your plans change while you are out, you are to call us. If all of your homework and daily chores are done you can go out on a week night after dinner until 9:00 pm. On Friday or Saturday nights, again if your chores are done you can go out until 11:00 pm. Going out is a privilege, however, that can be taken away if you are not following the rules.
19. We will not tolerate cursing, name calling, or any other form of disrespectful behavior. We will not tolerate threats, violence or bullying of any kind to us or anyone else, wherever they occur.
20. You will not engage in any sexual activity.
21. You will not be permitted to go to un-chaperoned parties or to a girl’s house if her parents are not at home.
22. If the rules are not followed, there will be consequences ranging from loss of TV/Video/computer (including Gameboy) privileges, loss of your iPod (as agreed in the iPod contract), loss of going out privileges for less serious violations; to removal from the home for more serious or persistent violations.
I was really hoping that you and others on this site could offer us other alternatives. the book you mentioned is primarily focused on addiction therapy alternatives, and that's not an issue for Andrew. Again, I'm not looking for a quick fix and I have tried to hear his side of things-but when we ask him directly what we should be doing differently his response is "I don't know".
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 12:07:32 PM
This parent is medicating her son into complaince and still not happy with her child's attitude and behavior.
Take him off the drugs. Give him a chance to detox and send him to a therapist who can help him AND HIS DYSFUNCTIONAL PARENT(S).
These programs are nothing but dumping grounds for defiant PARENTS.
Zero Tolerance for Adolescence is your problem Parent, you need to grow the fuck up and stop blaming your child for your failures.
:flame:
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 12:10:37 PM
And you actually wrote out each and every one of those rules out. Do you write infantilist fiction in your spare time? Loli bondage, mayhaps? Spanking fics? You've already beaten Covergaard in the fetish department by a country mile.
Wait a minute- Bitchnigger (here I refer to a specific person; he knows who he is), can that possibly be you behind that mask? He's still out for your blood, you know, and he's made a deal with Satan. There's going to be some fun when you die.
In the off chance that you actually adopted this kid: Give him to someone else. I could offer advice involving "wow, you want to make your kid hate you even more?" or "way to exacerbate the problem", but you're seriously not qualified to take it.
And in the interest of fair play, I'll do to you what your post did to me:
(http://http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Pain2.jpg)
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 12:13:18 PM
(http://http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/5b/Pain2.jpg)
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 12:43:13 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 12:46:39 PM
Post by: exhausted on October 13, 2007, 01:46:14 PM
A parent - would you PM me as I don't seem to have the option to PM you
Thanks
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 13, 2007, 02:12:50 PM
Why not teach them to make their own decisions? If you do it for them then expect them to be able to at the magical number "18", they won't.
BTW does no sexual activity include masturbating ? :rofl: Because in WWASPS that's looked out for and punished severely.
Post by: ZenAgent on October 13, 2007, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: ""a parent""
OK, I had hoped to get some straight honest advice but I was wrong. By the way, we didn't want to write out rules for Andrew, but he and his therapist told us to write them out and discuss them, which we did. Do we expect him to follow all rules all the time-no. But if he breaks them, then we have the right to impose consequenses, like refusing to be his chauffer or making him pay for things he has stolen or destroyed. I'm sorry you were so offended that you felt the need to visually assault me. We feel we have the right to live in a house without violence, but I guess your answer is we should let him do whatever he likes and just put up with having our son hit us whenever things don't go his way. I'd love to hear your definition of a functional parent-but since this is the last time I will visit this site I guess I'll have to pass.
Try going here: http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php (http://www.freepowerboards.com/strugglingppl/index.php) before making a decision you might regret. If this forum is not convincing to you, read the GAO thread. You don't want to make a choice that leaves you without a son.
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 02:50:16 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 03:01:15 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
For a new arrival, A Parent certainly knows how to handle the quotes, yep. Like a damn pro at it.
Indeed.
I think it's an attempt at "renormalization" by the programmies- they don't have real people espousing the values that they want espoused, so they have to invent some.
Unfortunately they're nowhere near as smart nor as good at fiction as the people on our side of the fence, so their attempts pale by comparison when we do it.
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
:scared: :scared: :scared:
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2007, 07:17:30 PM
to guest-we're not control freaks and we don't care if he mastrubates, we just don't want him making babies in our house and he won't use protection even though we offered to buy it.
Post by: TheWho on October 13, 2007, 07:33:00 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""For a new arrival, A Parent certainly knows how to handle the quotes, yep. Like a damn pro at it.
Indeed.
I think it's an attempt at "renormalization" by the programmies- they don't have real people espousing the values that they want espoused, so they have to invent some.
Unfortunately they're nowhere near as smart nor as good at fiction as the people on our side of the fence, so their attempts pale by comparison when we do it.
Ha,Ha,Ha, I love that one.....
...
Post by: ZenAgent on October 13, 2007, 07:42:29 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
to Exhausted, Psy and ZenAgent. I moved to the site ZenAgent suggested, but it looks like it's inactive. No posts since the summer. Anyway, if you do have advice please post me there.
to guest-we're not control freaks and we don't care if he mastrubates, we just don't want him making babies in our house and he won't use protection even though we offered to buy it.
People are reading, though. It looks like the last time I posted was Sept. 24. Everyone has been working in other areas lately, but people do still read. I saw your post, there are other parents who will discuss the matter with you, minus the distractions, from both sides of the issue. There's a lot of useful info in the old posts.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 14, 2007, 05:30:04 AM
Given you seek alternatives you are protected under clause A of the Shithead Parent manifesto.
Post by: Che Gookin on October 14, 2007, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Fact is there are at least two former program parents who appear to be in need of serious psychological counseling who post on Fornits on a regular basis. Both thrive on confrontation and blame their kid for needing (or is it deserving?) to be sent away. One kid had alleged entitlement issues like any normal teen, the other kid was more of an "inconvenience" to the parents own entitlement issues. Then there are the re-born parents, some of the most obnoxious, self-absorbed, delusional, twisted, pathologically obsessed people you'll ever meet on the planet. I wish someone would do a study on parents. Mandatory testing of parents makes a hell of a lot more sense than testing teens.
:scared: :scared: :scared:
Don't hold out.. name the names.. I need to know if I should apply the Shithead parent manifesto towards them.
Post by: SettleForNothingLess on October 14, 2007, 06:37:44 AM
SO FUCKKKK THAT SHIIIIIAATT about kids not knowing the stresses and bullllshit... OVER MY DEADDDD BODY WOULD I EVER GIVE IN TO THE TROUBLED TEEN INDUSTRY AND ITS BULLLLLLSHITTTTTTT
Post by: Che Gookin on October 14, 2007, 07:09:24 AM
Post by: SettleForNothingLess on October 14, 2007, 07:11:24 AM
Post by: psy on October 15, 2007, 12:29:51 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""Quote from: ""Guest""For a new arrival, A Parent certainly knows how to handle the quotes, yep. Like a damn pro at it.
Indeed.
I think it's an attempt at "renormalization" by the programmies- they don't have real people espousing the values that they want espoused, so they have to invent some.
Unfortunately they're nowhere near as smart nor as good at fiction as the people on our side of the fence, so their attempts pale by comparison when we do it.
Ha,Ha,Ha, I love that one.....
Ha,Ha,HA, once again, you're showing your true colors... That's right, Who, It's all in our fucked up little druggie heads that this shit happened to us and happens every day and nobody, especially the parents, seem to want to deal with the reality of the situation... Who can blame them. Pre-program parents are seduced by the idea of something that will finally work. (but not all. Some parents are just sick (like the above). Well... to avoid derailing this thread, a parent asked on this board what they shoudl do? well? You really want an honest answer?
My advice to this particular, and these types of parents is to stop trying to shove the kid back up the twat. It isn't going to work (they grow... they don't fit). Kids distance themselves from their parents during teenage years. It's a normal part of growing up. Like a government, when parents take away liberty, the people rebel. It's natural and just. Some stuff made sense, such as "no stealing"... but ... CD restrictions? Searching his iPod? Do you have any respect for his right to make up his own mind? (ability is irrelevant, by judging him, and thinking for him you suffocate his ability to learn by doing, or perhaps even thinking about issues, however controversial) The ratings board will stick an explicit sticker on an entire CD for a single mention of the word, "fuck". As if he doesn't hear "fuck" at high school or hear it whispered by his girl-friend followed by "me harder" (at least he isn't gay). If she isn't on the pill, talk to her mom.
Sure the kid has an anger problem, but he should be talking to a shrink about that, not a cult leader (which is what he'll get in a program). Are all programs dangerous/corrupt/abusive? Theoretically, yes and no... But practically, yes... Because you really can't tell. Some programs get away with incredible atrocities for decades before they get shut down, and when they do... They find a way to re-open or shuffle around.
What to do about his violence? Well. Buy a solid wood door for your bedroom, install a deadbolt yourself(*) or hire a locksmith to do it. If he gets angry, go to your room, put on some bose earphones and blast some deftones or something so you won't hear the background smashing, etc, etc (**)...
What to do about the smashed shit? Well. Simply do nothing. I mean literally nothing. If you have dogs, take them into the back yard but do not clean up anything. Act as if everything is normal. Invite friends over, and when they ask what happened, tell them nothing, but call your son and have him explain, so that he can give his side of the story first. If he refuses, tell the guests so, and if they ask why you aren't cleaning up, tell them that you didn't make the mess, so why should you have to clean it up... Don't tell your son guests are coming over, just do it. If he complains that you didn't tell him, tell him that you don't have to tell him who you associate with, and it's none of his business when anybody comes over. Do this until he either cleans it up himself, realizes that he needs to chill the fuck out, or both. I think you both need to respect each other's boundries and find a way to co-exist. Find out what pisses him off and figure out a way to alleviate that as well, give him more freedom and let him deal with the consequences if he gets in trouble... but have compassion. Family is family and if it's a criminal record we're talking about, everybody needs second chances, especially with ill-concieved zero-tolerance laws clogging up the jails, destroying lives. My opinion is you should offer him a reasonable, but small allowance until he finds a job.
Do you see what I am saying? What you have to do (in my opinion) is to get him to experience the consequences of his own actions, with no interferance from you. Then again. I'm not an expert in raising a kid. Neither are program staff, "coaches" and arguably even psychologists. You know your kid better than anybody else. I can offer some advice, but ultimately you're going to have to figure out something to do (or not do). I do know one thing for sure: that a program is not the answer and will make things much much worse in most cases. Don't believe me? Ok, but you're taking a dangerous risk with your kid's sanity, future, and safety.
* (it takes a drill, a hole saw (attachment for the drill bit) and, dedpending on the door, i believe, a 1 inch in diameter drillbit to drill in the side. The rest you should have if you have a drill.
** I am not knocking the deftones, but you have to admit, if there is music that can distract at high volume, that would be it.
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 15, 2007, 12:41:58 PM
Post by: Froderik on October 15, 2007, 01:06:46 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Funny how they treat anger problems by instigating them in the programmie-mindset, isn't it?
Where can I order one of these programmie mindsets? Do they come with a warranty?
Post by: psy on October 15, 2007, 01:11:02 PM
Quote from: ""Froderik""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""Funny how they treat anger problems by instigating them in the programmie-mindset, isn't it?Where can I order one of these programmie mindsets? Do they come with a warranty?
No warranty, or guarantee (except to explode shortly after "graduation")... kaBOOM! and it's back to program again... Automatic return to sender feature.
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 15, 2007, 01:21:41 PM
You haven't replied in AIM in a week! :wink:
Post by: Che Gookin on October 16, 2007, 02:23:59 AM
You would think they would start one of their own.
I wonder who is up to their trolling again?
Post by: Che Gookin on October 16, 2007, 02:56:09 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
All cheap shots aside...
Actually, your cheap shot really did show your true colors. Interesting...