Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Greetings; I hope that all are well this evening.

In response to the question put to me last night:

What I find fascinating, though is that instead of becoming a lifelong member of a specific group, you’ve found a way to adapt to all sorts of them. Did any of the beliefs of the other groups contradict those of DAYTOP?

Wow, that's a broad question, a lot of ground to cover here.  I shall begin answering the question, by recalling the two of the “DAYTOP values” that most profoundly affected my mentality after I’d left DAYTOP, these ones I really integrated the most into my worldview.  These two are, “You can’t keep it unless you give it away” and “Act as if."

These respective beliefs (Daytopian thinking and religion, especially Bible-based religious thinking IMO) do not, at least on the surface, contradict one another (most Bible-based groups are evangelistic to one degree or another) and the DAYTOP values are quite adaptable to being implemented in any overtly religious context.  I suppose that I contrived a way to adapt them to every situation and group that I was around.  Daytop is in effect a pseudo-religion with its own creed and dogmas etc.  For example:

You can’t keep it unless you give it away: This one threw my sense of boundaries way out of whack.  The best way to help yourself maintain your sobriety is by helping somebody else to do the same.   Or in a churchy group the best way to maintain your salvation is by helping others to attain the same, by "getting people saved."  A good value in and of itself I suppose (keeping it by giving it away, whatever "it" may be), it sounds good enough in principle, but taken literally and to an unhealthy degree this mindset fosters co-dependence and a group mentality, and an unhealthy sense of responsibility for other people’s success or failure.  It’s true that in a sense that “we are all in this together” (in the sense of a global community and all that), that we are interdependent, but it’s also true that I have to be selfish in order to learn how to be selfless in a healthy way.  DAYTOP taught me a lack of balance and a boundary-reducing philosophy in this respect.  You cannot keep yourself unless you give yourself away.  In retrospect, it sounds so insane, but that's what I tried to do, give myself away.

Act as if: Translated as "fake it ‘till you make it."  You are who other people tell you you are, or who they tell you you ought to be.  Need I say more?

Here's a couple more:

Be careful what you ask for you just might get it:  Again, sounds good on the surface, right?  But twisted and taken to an unhealthy extent, it leads to complacency and again, group-dependency, and a lack of confidence and trust in oneself; it leads one to actually fear being fully "recovered."  Makes one afraid of new challenges because this thinking leads to self-doubt and one will always remain in a state of thinking "I'm just trying to sabotage myself again, I'd better ask my counselor what she/he thinks before I make a decision."  It's crippling for a kid to be exposed to this stuff. Be careful if you think that you might want to be fully recovered and an independent, autonomous, fully-functional individual, you just might get it!

To be aware is to be alive  So nebulous; what does this one really mean?   It boils down and leads to what Lifton described as "doctrine over person" and "the dispensing of existence." It's a potent little thought-stopping phrase that is used to abruptly shut down critical thinking.  "To be aware of yourself is the same as being aware of other people telling you who who are, and until you know who you are as defined by the group perception of you the individual, you are not truly alive."  

All of these "DAYTOP values" IMO are, to some degree or another, thought-stopping, critical-thinking reducing nonsense phrases.  

All cults use some type of thought stopping technique. “You can't keep it unless you give it away” is a phrase I heard over and over while I was at DAYTOP and now in hindsight, I realize what a powerful tool that little phrase is, as is the teaching on “Act as if.”  Trying to incorporate all this new information about myself, my feelings, and the world around me was suddenly truncated by the thought-stopping phrase, “You can't keep it unless you give it away.”

"Let DAYTOP do the thinking for you" is all these really mean, and it actually promoted unawareness and an attitude of apathy, an inability to see anything valid outside of the group environment.  Instills a fear of "relapse" through misplaced hypersensitivity to times, places, and circumstances.  Conflates self-awareness and developing critical thinking with "be careful what you ask for" crapola and irrational fear of relapsing.  It actually guarantees relapse once you are out of DAYTOP!

These are just my notes, ramblings, brainstorming.  Am I making sense to anybody?

This I believe is a good start.  Any questions or comments from anyone?

Yep, that's pretty much it, pretty much what happened to me.  They had me convinced that I was a lot worse off than I really was before I went into their program, and then after I left it, within a couple years' time I turned into an actual monster pothead, me and all my Daytopian friends.

And then, I subsequently turned to one group after another in an effort to get well and stay well...I'd become convinced that I could not function as a healthy an autonomous human being, that the only way to survive was as part of some group.  Basically, I got to a point to where I had lost pretty much all sense of personal identity and defined myself in terms of whatever group I was visiting or aligned with at the time.  And I have been around a lot of them: JPUSA, the Twelve Tribes, a small group in Dallas you've probably never heard of, ISKCON...believe me, I have made the rounds of the fringe religious groups.  

Most of these communities I never really intended to join; I was simply "checking them out" from the point of view of a researcher.  I just simply enjoy researching cults.  It helps me to understand my own experience and I simply find it fascinating.

Sheez, this discussion is really helping me.  It'll take a while to process it all.  Thanks for your time and help here.

Have you ever heard anything about DAYTOP having ties to, or being funded "under the table" by, organized crime out of NYC?  When I was around DAYTOP back in the day, there were rumors floating around that kids coming back from Millbrook would tell of.

So, you were a part of CEDU?  I that the group you were part of?  If not, may I ask what group you were a part of?  Just cannot help but wonder.

Also, please expand on what you mean by The general tune is the same: Thought reform + origin + group power structure.

What do you mean exactly in using the word "origin"?

Elaborate please?

Interesting you include "some other group". If you're referring to what I think you are, i'd tend to agree. Institutionalized 12 steppery performs a forced conversion function as a front group for the 12 step religion as a whole. You might find this chapter of this book (link) by Charles Bufe interesting.

No, I was not specifically referring to Bill (though he and I used to be buddies; DAYTOP would take us to Bills' place once a week or so), but groups in general, all kinds, whether religious groups, military groups, self-help/recovery groups, whatever.  They are all basically the same.  I got used to groups and got to the point of believing that that was a good and normal and even superior way to go about my life.

In a sense, if you've seen one cult, you've seen 'em all.

I have been in a religious cult, visited and mingled with several different religious communities and various communes, (some cultic, some not), DAYTOP, AND the Army (which I consider to be cult too, but at least you get paid and get some benefits) all in an effort to re-create the phony sense of "community" that I experienced as a teenager in DAYTOP.

That's what it comes down to, doesn't it?  Learned helplessness.  Exactly what I need to hear.  

Must have been easy when you believed you were powerless. In my cynical opinion this learned helplessness performs a "return to sender" function: programming a person to self destruct without the group. You can only function as a member. Further, you naturally try to help others you see as who you were before the cult (everybody, since history is revised). They turn you into a deployable agent of the cult... a missionary of sorts.

The Daytop Philosophy, recited like a prayer or mantra every morning before Morning Meeting, programmed us to be group-dependent, taught us groupthink  right away.  Here it is:

I am here because there is no refuge.
Finally, from myself.
Until I confront myself in the eyes
and hearts of others, I am running.
Until I suffer them to share my secrets,
I have no safety from them.
Afraid to be known, I can know
neither myself nor any other, I will be alone.
Where else but in our common ground,
can I find such a mirror?
Here, together, I can at last appear
clearly to myself not as the giant
of my dreams nor the dwarf of my fears,
but as a person, part of a whole,
with my share in its purpose.
In this ground, I can take root and grow,
Not alone anymore as in death,
But alive to myself and to others.

Judging by the language you've used, I'm guessing you probably already know a lot of this. Does your therapist have experience with cults/cultic groups and understand how they work, of have you had to do most of the research on your own?

Sadly, your experience as you describe it is hardly unique. Indeed, the influence of similar cultic groups seems to be growing rather than shrinking.

Both.  I am a serious researcher of cults and new religious movements, and my therapists are two of the foremost experts in the area of abusive and controlling relationships in the US.  My therapists have a huge amount of expertise and experience with cult-trauma survivors.  More later.  I'd like to keep this chat going if it's OK with you.  I find it very cathartic.