Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 13, 2004, 12:08:00 AM
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http://www.ktvu.com/news/3298166/detail.html (http://www.ktvu.com/news/3298166/detail.html)
This is a Government saying this. What do you think?
I think it's real
VSP
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I bet Sembler already has a deal set up with them too, fucking bastard.........
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The UFO activity over Mexico for the last 10 years has been so horrendously prolific....its hard to imagine that it isnt real. Do a little searching and you will see what I mean...this is one of literally thousands of visually documented instances. They live with ir regularly down there.
Screw the government saying it! There are hundreds of thousands who see it and tape it every year.
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Yeah this is not new to the informed and open minded..
Some wouldnt believe if an extra terrest came in their home and anal probed them...theyd probably call it creative dreaming or something like that.
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The point is that our government can?t protect us from them. The Aliens. They also won?t disclose the true number of people that are abducted daily. It happens all the time. But out of sight and out of mind for most. Well now the Mexican Government is saying that UFOS are real. And like Carmel said it happens all the time in Mexico, this isn?t anything new. It just amazes me that our government lies so blatantly and continues to get away with it. This story should be front-page news, talked about everywhere, but it isn?t. The truth is there are stronger forces than our governments here on earth. The Aliens scare the crap out of our governments. They know we are powerless to defend ourselves from them. What are we going to do when we get some Alien Biker Gang that comes to pay us a visit?
Has anyone every heard of the Disclosure Project? Very interesting, watch the press conference and what they say????http://www.disclosureproject.org/
One of the main reasons for Disclosure is that the government has the solutions to Energy. They have clean, renewable energy sources, we don?t need Oil anymore, but I guess they don?t want to shut down the dependence and money they make from Oil.
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This goes way back; long before the modenrn industrial era. If you examine fairy tales, they have many elements of similarity to modern UFO or space alien stories. In those days, people who had those experiences or passed along the stories were called lunatics and/or persecuted as devil worshipers while the subject of the stories were written off as demonic. These days, we're all fixated on technology and such, so the same occurance gets labeled w/ a techie sort of explanation.
I think you hit it dead on; whatever it is that's been going on lo these many millennia, it's beyond the control of the controlers. So the same persecution happens. Nothing new under the Sun.
I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.
---Albert Camus
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Reminds me of that character played by Rob Lowe in the movie "Contact". Busy-bodying over whether or not the Aliens believed in God.
Even after confirmation of a complete reversal in everything that we all believed to be true about the universe.....he was still so small minded that he thought it should all fit into HIS perspective...rather than him fitting into the bigger perspective of the universe.
This is how I see government when it comes to ETs. Forget the fact that its the end of the world as we know it...how can it benefit us? How can we make a buck, get control, use it against our fellow man?
Its tragic really. Could you imagine if we were told that aliens did exist? With all the sick thinking in this world, it would be utter chaos. Global breakdown. Religion (or most of it) would be totally invalidated. I am willing to place my bet that 2/3 of the worlds religious fanatics wouldnt be prepared to go out like chumps without a fight.
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If anyone has ever gone water-skiing, you have probably seen the "phantom shark" that appears between the ski's from time to time. It is just a combination of your own shadow and an area of smooth flowing water. As you just about shit yourself and scream at the boat, most on board are hip to what's happening and busy laughing their asses off.
The Mexican air force has some really ancient and decrepit planes in service, namely the T-133 which used to be called the Panther, is subsonic, and has not flown in American service since Gilligan's Island was telecast in black and white. They have a few slightly more modern F-5 Tigersharks, but what I saw of the video, the pattern of lights were too uniform and followed the outlines of a small squadron of T-133s.
I honestly think that the surveillance plane picked up some SHEET LIGHTNING signatures off of the very planes that were flying escort. I just wish I knew Spanish so I could tell what they were saying, because if the pilot jibbered "Look over there, to the right," and the mystery lights suddenly turned right, maybe that is because it was one of their own guys looking for the UFO, not even realizing that the lights were balls of plasma coming off of his own aircraft, which would be impossible for him to see due to the wings being set so far behind the cockpit canopy.
Just a theory, not a fact, nothing to freak about.
I myself believe in UFOs, just that if they really wanted to make themselves known, they would have done so a long time ago.
As far as alien abductions go, research has shown that an episode of SLEEP APNEA will produce almost the same experience in a person as what the abductee reports. Numbness (due to the fact that you have stopped breathing in your sleep) and getting a shock as if being hit with a tractor beam (the brain shocking your lungs back into breathing again) and overwhelming sense of fear and racing heartbeat (as the body tries to bring the oxygen level back to normal) Oh well, I am gonna go to the Planetarium and leave a trail of Reese's Peices back to my apartment.
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I do speak spanish and listened to the video they were mostly discussing the amount of lights they saw and how it didn't resemble an airplane. From what I heard they counted up to 12? Has anyone heard what the government is saying about it? I caught the tail end of a report on MCNBC this morning but didn't get any details. One thing is though that it is getting mass media attention if Katie Couric was reporting it.
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Do we need to be protect? Would we really want the government to be doing the protecting, anyway?
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I don't think so. I think these sightings are probably just the same things that have been going on all through history. There's a lot about this world and universe that we simply don't understand. Doesn't mean we're about to be vaporized or enslaved just because we only recently acknowledged whatever the hell this is.
As Pogo said, "I have seen the enemy and the enemy is us."Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine
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http://www.aliensthetruth.com/movies_famous.html (http://www.aliensthetruth.com/movies_famous.html)
"Mexican Air Force UFO" is the forth line down.
What do you think?
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the jury is out on what these lights are/were. Time will tell but as of now no credible researchers have had the time to publish a report.
Oh, the lunatic fringe UFO "ufologist" have issued statements,and every supernatural embracing person in america has declared "we are not alone".
Yawn.
I will believe when the evidence is clear and compelling. So far virtually ever other UFO "siting" has been explained away by more beleivable explanations.
In the days of old witches flying across the sky on brooms were common sitings. Were did they go? Nowdays, since "close encounters" was released in the seventies, everyone sees the big eyed grey guys. The modern day Ufo phenom can be traced right back to early 50s UFo movies and even further to The broadcast "war of the worlds". Before that, almost no writings of UFO sitings can be found.
How predictable is that? Humans are gullible.
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There is only one problem Greg, the Disclosure Project. There are hundreds of top-level government people from our government. Every branch of military, CIA, and even the FBI, NORAD, are coming forward. They are all pressing for disclosure to the public. Because of their first hand accounts. They already have the evidence. My own stepbrother was in the Military in stationed in South America. He was told to keep it quiet what he saw almost daily on the Military Intel network. I?m talking about real things, not Hollywood.
Take care all,
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The disclosure project?
Don't make me laugh. No substance is coming out of it at all.
Just because someone once worked for the government does not exclude that person from hysteria,mental illness, delusionment, grandstanding and a desire to be in the public light.
I have spent time of their website. Another big YAWN.
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sorry, forgot to log on...that was me, and I would love to debate this topic ad at length but I am packing my bags for South America as we speak.
I will just say this...just because you don't understand something, does not prove the existence of something unknown.
Do UFO's exist? Surely, unidentified flying objects occur.
Are they aliens? Very unlikely but I am open of EVIDENCE that they are. Is there any existing evidence of UFO's? Not that I know of. If so, post it here. And please, no supposing, bullshit, proven frauds, or supernatural mumbo jumbo. Also, no "explain this or it is an alien" type of juvenile unscientific logic please.
These lights that are the subject of this thread are currently unexplained, not evidence of aliens.
They are no more evidence of aliens than they are of flying zombies.[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-05-15 07:45 ]
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Greg, have fun, I'm off to England soon.
Just someting to think about regarding UFOS. Do you remember Alan Aldren from Nasa? He was with Neil Armstrong? Do you know what he says and maintains to this very day? That they were surrounded on the moon by Aliens. There were three craft watching them. This is what happend with him. He's part of the Disclosure Project.
If you can't believe things like that then how can we expect people to believe what happened to us in Straight. It sounds far fetched to most too.
Anyway, have fun and keep safe.............
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Well, here is the difference anon...
As bad as straight was (or in my case the Seed), there is real evidence it actually existed. There is a building, there are interviews from the time, there are corporate minutes and verified eyewitness testimony (notice I said verified). We have pictures and lawsuits. In other words, we have a perponderance of the evidence to suggest this place existed and that child abuse took place, that techniques were used that were abusive.
With aliens, we have nothing but group hysteria. There are photos, but they are routinely proven false while the ufo "community" still embraces and maintains their veracity. There are spacecraft but you cannot touch them, see them or feel them, only take the word of those that saw them. There are supernatural qualities to the stories and hysterical rantings.
There is eyewitness testimony but they are not backed up with credible evidence, only superfantastical stories. The disclosure project is a bunch of deranged people....go in and really read the website.
don't compare the two please, you are comparing apples with poison nuts.
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and again I ask you, If you have evidence of Aliens, post the evidence here....
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Ever heard of 4 star Gen. Corrso? He was in change of all the Alien stuff for over 20 years. Put in place by Eisenhower adminstration. Are you saying he's not credible? He worked on and with the evidence your talking about. These are our govenment people saying this, not me. It's their words.
here is a clip from Apollo,
According to the NASA Astronaut Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on the Moon and told us in no uncertain terms to get off and stay off the Moon.
According to hitherto un-confirmed reports, both Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after that historic landing on the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July 1969. I remember hearing one of the astronauts refer to a "light" in or on a crater during the television transmission, followed by a request from mission control for further information. Nothing more was heard.
According to a former NASA employee Otto Binder, unnamed radio hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange:
NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...
Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
They're on the Moon watching us!
A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA symposium.
Professor: What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?
Armstrong: It was incredible, of course we had always known
there was a possibility, the fact is, we were
warned off!(by the Aliens). There was never any
question then of a space station or a moon city.
Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?
Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that their
ships were far superior to ours both in size and
technology - Boy, were they big!...and menacing!
No, there is no question of a space station.
Professor: But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?
Armstrong: Naturally - NASA was committed at that time, and
couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really was a
quick scoop and back again.
According to a Dr. Vladimir Azhazha:
"Neil Armstrong relayed the message to Mission Control that two large, mysterious objects were watching them after having landed near the moon module. But this message was never heard by the public -- because NASA censored it."
According to a Dr. Aleksandr Kasantsev, Buzz Aldrin took color movie film of the UFOs from inside the module, and continued filming them after he and Armstrong went outside.
Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind the cover-up.
Greg have you ever wondered why we never went back to the moon? It's been over 30 years?
Have a safe trip dude,
seeya
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I will have a safe trip, but....LOOKOUT BEHIND YOU, they are watching you as we speak.
:eek:
Again, just because someone once worked in government doesn't make his delusions or need for attention any better than say, a butcher or milkmans. Former Gen. Corso was NOT in "charge of UFO Stuff" but was a decorated military officer. He has written a book that claims he saw a UFO body floating in liquid after Roswell During Shipment. All we have is heresay which is not proof. Now what could be his motivation? Financial gainis one obvious answer? respectablility in the UFO movement is another. There are more...
one can only speculate and either accept a superfantastical account at face value or actually adopt an attitude of skepticism when dealing with a community of folks (the ufo people) that have been caught with their proverbial pants down over and over. I say show me some evidence dammit and stop the bullshit talking!
Now, a "light" in a crater is a far cry of proof of aliens, and has also alternate rational reasoning You need to research the REAL transcript of the conversation for your answer. But, accepting a light or reflection as evidence of aliens is is akin to saying the "light" (or reflection) in the crater is proof that Zeus exists. There is no logical correlation.
Really dude/dudette, read what you just wrote. It is rambling and incoherrent and full of conspiracy nonsense. "according to Otto Binder", well excuse me, but who the fuck is "otto Binder" and where is the transcript, where is the independent verification from the people speaking these words or receiving them? How come only "otto binder" received this when it was readily available to other radio hams... You sure it wasn't Smotto Minder? This is really really really stupid to be blunt and has no crediblity outside, again, the self promulgating historically insane "UFO community". Please.
Or how about a "unnamed professor". where is the quote from the supposed source, Neil armstrong?
I can answer...it doesn't exist.
BTW, your story is a well known quackery from way back and indicative of the entire UFO community. Do you wonder why known forgeries and fantasys are paraded around UFO sites or do you just accept this stuff because it is fun to believe? Do you understand the scientific method and how eggregiously these people violate any such standards? You need to get out of fairyland and ground yourself in reality.
By the way, before you reffered to astronaut Buzz Aldrin...here is an excerpt from his book....
n his book "RETURN TO EARTH" Colonel Edwin E. Aldrin Jr. writes the following on pages 223-224;
"In the middle of one evening, Houston time, I found myself idly staring out the window of the Columbia and saw something that looked a bit unusual. It appeared brighter than any star and not quite the pinpoints of light that stars are. I pointed this out to Mike and Neil, and the three of us were beset with curiosity. With the help of the monocular we guessed that whatever it was, it was only a hundred or so miles away. Looking at it through our sextant we found it occasionaly formed a cylinder, but when the sextant's focus was adjusted it had a sort of illuminated "L" look to it. It had a shape of some sort -- we all agreed on that -- but exactly what it was we couldnt pin down. We asked Houston some casual questions: "How far away is the Saturn third stage?" The response was in the vicinity of six thousand miles. That wasn't it.
It could possibly have been one of the panels of the Saturn third stage which fly off to expose the LM and cannot be traced from earth. We could see it for about forty-five seconds at a time as the ship rotated, and we watched it on and off for about an hour. We debated whether or not to tell the ground we had spotted something, and decided against it. Our reason was simple: The UFO people would descend on the message in hordes, setting off another rash of UFO spottings back on earth. We concluded it was most likely one of the panels. Its course appeared in no way to conflict with ours, and it presented no danger. We dropped the matter there."
He does NOT maintain as you suggest they were ever surrounded by aliens. Another glaring example of the bullshit propogated by the UFO people.
Your quotes are not well researched and your information, gleaned and compiled by kookoo nuts, has all been proven to be either fraudulent or fabricated.
Still waiting for evidence of aliens.....
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Uum there are cave paintings of flying saucers and spacemen that look like they are wearing astronaut uniforms....
The oldest culture known to maqn believed in aliens and I know for a fact they exist.
And another thing you said that most all ufo sightings have been explained away thats hardly true....
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Greg I think your wrong on this one, Col Corso was the real deal. He died last year. The following is from an article.
The main reason The Day After Roswell is so important is not because of its focus on UFOs, ETs and aliens; it is that Col. Corso has rewritten the fundamental history of the Cold War epoch, 1947-1997. He clearly shows that the advanced technology discovered at the very real crash site from July 1947 has become "seeded" to major American corporate giants, such as Dow, Bell Labs, IBM, Hughes Aircraft, etc., over the past 50 years! In fact, in the early 1960s, Col. Corso--who had already been a member of President Eisenhower?s National Security Council in the 1950s--"inherited" what he referred to as his "junk drawer," a cabinet or file containing alien artifacts, gadgets, out-of-this-world material, unknown oddities and important blueprints, all going back to the Roswell UFO crash in the New Mexico desert some 50 years ago.
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No shit? Are there photos of said "junk" or do you have any links for me to check out?
I believe you, Im just curios now...
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Google search on the Col turns up jack shit.
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These aliens are the same fuckers that invented religion about 5000 years ago as a way of mindfucking the human race. Don't trust them. They lie.
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RTP did you know that Scripture says that God's people are aliens to this world?
Seriously, it really says that!
And it also says that the believer's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom. And where is heaven, RTP?
Somewhere OUT THERE in SPACE!!!!!
I'm just messing with you, man. Don't get mad. We aren't here to hurt you, RTP. We only want to colonize your planet. :lol:
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I just got back from out of town tonight. First thing after I proved you wrong on buzz aldrin is Ancient cave paintings?
I have seen them. They have been interpreted by real archeologists and they are not aliens, as much as you would like to believe.
And the Colonel was a real war hereo. That does not mean his wasn't delusional later in life or seeking fame and fortune. He hasn't provided any evidence only heresay. That does not work in this arena, the arena of reality. Extraordinary superfantastical claims require more than heresay to accept at face value, like your assertion of an alien base on the moon. SHOW ME!!!!!
Here is the reality, you have nothing, no real evidence of alien visitors to this planet. I still challenge anyone to post said evidence, here, now. But please, stop posting bullshit and heresay.
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Greg I think your wrong on this one, Col Corso was the real deal. He died last year. The following is from an article.
The main reason The Day After Roswell is so important is not because of its focus on UFOs, ETs and aliens; it is that Col. Corso has rewritten the fundamental history of the Cold War epoch, 1947-1997. He clearly shows that the advanced technology discovered at the very real crash site from July 1947 has become "seeded" to major American corporate giants, such as Dow, Bell Labs, IBM, Hughes Aircraft, etc., over the past 50 years! In fact, in the early 1960s, Col. Corso--who had already been a member of President Eisenhower?s National Security Council in the 1950s--"inherited" what he referred to as his "junk drawer," a cabinet or file containing alien artifacts, gadgets, out-of-this-world material, unknown oddities and important blueprints, all going back to the Roswell UFO crash in the New Mexico desert some 50 years ago.
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really? Well, where are these UFO gadgets today? Have they been turned over to legitimate scientific researchers for analysis and for independent scientific corraboration?
Or is this just another fantasy of the UFO nuts?????
BTW, where was this "article" lifted from? Let me guess, a UFO site on the internet,perhaps? PLease, come up with something of substance For god's sake.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-05-23 18:56 ]
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On 2004-05-16 07:27:00, Triumvirate wrote:
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The oldest culture known to man believed in aliens and I know for a fact they exist.
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Finally, we are getting somewhere....FACTUAL evidence. Please post it here for all to see, and thank you in advance. Also, which culture do you refer to and how do you know? Share your knowledge with us.
BTW, my personal opinion is that I would love for there to be aliens visiting this planet what with the billions of planets out there and statiscal likeliness of life on other planets, I just see no evidence they have visited planet earth and have sincere doubts due to the logistics, the distance and time needed to travel, and the ridiculous notion that they would overcome these obstacles just to sneak around and show themselves to unstable people. How silly is that? I see no evidence just paranoid rantings, delusional reasoning, wishfull thinking, wild interpretations, and silly notions (like an alien base on the moon..with no evidence to back it up).
Someone please that is a believer post some evidence!
I REALLY WANT TO SEE IT
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You want facts? Well, I guess depending on who you talk to...the facts can be defined and interpreted ad nauseum.
FACT is...no one can really say what the FACTS are. Because I dont believe anyone has enough of them to be taken seriously. THAT however, does not mean that there isnt some truth to the explaination of an otherworldy phenonmenon.
I hate it when people bust out the physics issue talking about how it is impossible to do this or that, space travel ...la la la. Not too long ago we thought the earth was flat, and even after that we were certain that the sun revolved around us. Ironic that. Humans would tend to place themselves as the center of the Universe. If we havent harnessed the power of the black hole yet, how could anyone or anything else possibly have? Rubbish I say! Gimme a break.
Anyhow, what we DO know at this point in history is only a modicum of what we COULD know in the future ...and it is ignorant and conceited to think that we can apply todays definitions of our universe to things we have yet to understand. Because, well, because we dont really have ALL the FACTS do we? Its also very narrow that we could presume to understand any intentions of an alien race in doing anything. As if what they arer doing should mirror our own thought processes and actions
I dont think it should take a dead alien body or a videotape to be open the idea that for whatever reason we have indeed experienced something not of this world at some point or another.
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On 2004-05-24 07:49:00, Carmel wrote:
"You want facts? Well, I guess depending on who you talk to...the facts can be defined and interpreted ad nauseum.
FACT is...no one can really say what the FACTS are. Because I dont believe anyone has enough of them to be taken seriously. THAT however, does not mean that there isnt some truth to the explaination of an otherworldy phenonmenon.
I hate it when people bust out the physics issue talking about how it is impossible to do this or that, space travel ...la la la. Not too long ago we thought the earth was flat, and even after that we were certain that the sun revolved around us. Ironic that. Humans would tend to place themselves as the center of the Universe. If we havent harnessed the power of the black hole yet, how could anyone or anything else possibly have? Rubbish I say! Gimme a break.
Anyhow, what we DO know at this point in history is only a modicum of what we COULD know in the future ...and it is ignorant and conceited to think that we can apply todays definitions of our universe to things we have yet to understand. Because, well, because we dont really have ALL the FACTS do we? Its also very narrow that we could presume to understand any intentions of an alien race in doing anything. As if what they arer doing should mirror our own thought processes and actions
I dont think it should take a dead alien body or a videotape to be open the idea that for whatever reason we have indeed experienced something not of this world at some point or another.
"
Well, thanks for the, er....evidence.
Carmel, no one said facts, I said show me evidence. No one has, only crap. Just in this thread alone you can find examples of the UFo community at large...to put it nicely, I will call it miscommunication and manipulation of events. Take Buzz Aldrin's statement about what happened in apollo for example, then we have a poster (and the "UFO community" I might add) extrapolating a probable panel off the spaceship into a lunar alien base, being surrounded by aliens,coverup consopiracies, fabricated conversations, etc. etc. It is unbelievable the level of nonsense that flies from a simple statement easily looked up from Buzz Aldrin.
I never said space travel over huge distances was impossible, only unlikely, and especially unlikely that said travelers would hide their existence once undertaking the momunental task of overcoming the limitations of time/space travel. Not to mention overcoming said limitations then crashing.
It is not that we don't have "All the facts" it is that no real evidence has been presented for alien visitors. Have they been here? Hell, I don't know and apparently neither does anyone else. What the UFO people have is a bunch of bullshit nonsense and unreliable eyewitness accounts.
I would be the first to embrace real evidence of alien visitors, but no one will provide it. Apparently, they can't.
And as far as ignorance goes, it is ignorance to proclaim things as fact when they are unknown. It is ignorant to accept at face value stories of superfantisical from a group of people that have been proven frauds and nutcases. It is ignorant to claim things such as travel thru Blackholes when there is no indication that this is possible.
Again, unknown lights in the sky are no more evidence of alien visitors than they are of flying witches or glowing supernatural beings. Until such things (and up till now it hasn't happened) are shown to be of a other world source, you are just blowing smoke.
Provide some evidence please.
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Carmel, no one said facts, I said show me evidence. No one has, only crap. Just in this thread alone you can find examples of the UFo community at large...to put it nicely, I will call it miscommunication and manipulation of events. Take Buzz Aldrin's statement about what happened in apollo for example, then we have a poster (and the "UFO community" I might add) extrapolating a probable panel off the spaceship into a lunar alien base, being surrounded by aliens,coverup consopiracies, fabricated conversations, etc. etc. It is unbelievable the level of nonsense that flies from a simple statement easily looked up from Buzz Aldrin.
I agree, people..well, most people who are involved in the UFO community are freak-os and are looking way too far for a spectacular explaination for something that is probably very basic. If not completely natural phenomenon (most of the time).
I never said space travel over huge distances was impossible, only unlikely, and especially unlikely that said travelers would hide their existence once undertaking the momunental task of overcoming the limitations of time/space travel. Not to mention overcoming said limitations then crashing.
1000 years ago, the technology of the automobile would have seemed ludicrous, impossible, unattainable, and completely unexplainable...to the people of that time...otherwordly phenonmenon would be the order of the day if someone saw you driving through a field in your Chevy back then. However, these days we all drive all the time and take the technology behind our ability to do so completely for granted. We crash our cars daily, and even on purpose occasionally. Nothing spectacular about that. This is why I say its narrow to try and fit something like an alien presence into the parameters of our own perspective, such as it is, at this point in time.
It is not that we don't have "All the facts" it is that no real evidence has been presented for alien visitors. Have they been here? Hell, I don't know and apparently neither does anyone else. What the UFO people have is a bunch of bullshit nonsense and unreliable eyewitness accounts.
I agree
I would be the first to embrace real evidence of alien visitors, but no one will provide it. Apparently, they can't.
So would I, but again...I dont need hard evidence to be completely open to the possibility that there are indeed other civilizations or forms of life in this Universe. According to our own laws of probability, this is so.
And as far as ignorance goes, it is ignorance to proclaim things as fact when they are unknown. It is ignorant to accept at face value stories of superfantisical from a group of people that have been proven frauds and nutcases. It is ignorant to claim things such as travel thru Blackholes when there is no indication that this is possible.
No indication that this is possible at our current level of understanding...try to think outside the box on this one.
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This coming from a guy that cannot even single post.
You, sir, lose at the intarweb.
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Sorry, that was me..I dont have the hang of cutting and pasting quotes. I wanted to respond to several points and I dont do it in that format too often.
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Carmel;
So would I, but again...I dont need hard evidence to be completely open to the possibility that there are indeed other civilizations or forms of life in this Universe. According to our own laws of probability, this is so.
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And I too Carmel, share that sentiment with you. I just don't think they are flying around here, sneaking about and harrassing hysterical people. When the evidence appears that this is happening, I will consider it. Until then, it seems as if it is mass hysteria and very uncredible.
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Carmel;
No indication that this is possible at our current level of understanding...try to think outside the box on this one.
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I acknowldege all types of possiblities, Carmel. I just refuse to accept as fact things that are speculative, and you should also.
Now, anyone got any EVIDENCE of UFO's to share?
ps, I too just had an "otherwordly" experience trying to cut and paste. I have corrected it to the best of my ability.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-05-25 11:29 ]
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Through the looking glass
The world of the UFO "believer"
Personal observations of Royston Paynter
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Broadly speaking, there are two flavours of UFOlogy - a serious kind, practiced by means of the scientific method, and what I shall call "popular UFOlogy", the kind one finds on the bookshelves in the "New Age" section. There can be no doubt that UFOs really do exist - but "UFO" means "unidentified flying object", and as far as I am aware, there is no tangible proof that any UFO was an alien space ship. But it is undeniable that some people really do see (or think they see) things in the sky that they do not recognize. To call these things "UFO"s is perhaps prejudicial - because the words "flying object" imply a nuts-and-bolts apparatus such as an alien space ship. A better term would be "unidentified aerial apparition", the scientific study of which has led to the discovery of a number of unusual natural phenomena, such as "Earth lights", a kind of atmospheric discharge caused by geomagnetic activity.
In this essay I want to address popular UFOlogy, which, in North America, means the belief that some UFOs are alien space ships. Why do so many people (at least half of Americans questioned) believe such an incredible thing, and on the basis of such scant evidence?
The simple answer is that they believe it because they do not consider it to be incredible, or the evidence to be scant.
How so? To find the answer we must step through the looking glass into the world of the "believer", where we will find a self-consistent universe full of alien life forms, science-fiction technologies, and political intrigue.
Possibility is inevitability
We must start with the question of the existence of alien life, for without a belief in that popular UFOlogy could not even get off the ground. What are the facts as we know them?
If we put aside the claims of popular UFOlogy itself, we find that there is no evidence whatsoever that intelligent alien life even exists. The various SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) projects, that sweep the sky with powerful radio telescopes, listening for alien signals, have turned up nothing. Whereas Mars may once have harboured unicellular organisms, according to the Viking probes that landed there, it is now a dead planet. As far as science is aware, therefore, we are alone in the universe.
Nonetheless, one would be hard pressed to find an informed scientist who is willing to argue that life is unique to the Earth. On the contrary, most scientists believe that alien life probably does exist, out there, somewhere, because, the universe is so darned BIG. Even if intelligent life is a one-in-a-billion proposition, there are so many billions of stars out there that it would frankly be astonishing to find that alien life did not exist.
The believer takes this to mean that alien life definitely does exist. His next challenge is to get his aliens to Earth.
One can construct arguments about how difficult interstellar travel would be based upon physics as we know it. Frank Drake, for example, argues that the expenditure of energy and resources required to move 100 aliens to a nearby star system would provide a luxurious standard of living for 100,000 aliens were they to stay home, and that therefore, any alien race that could count would figure it a waste of resources to attempt an exploration of the galaxy (except by radio communication.) One can also argue that the distance between stars is just too great to be traversed in a meaningful time.
However, in the view of the "believer", such arguments are closed-minded. To the "believer", the "light barrier" will some day be broken, just like the sound barrier. He might even point to Alcubierre's "warp drive" paper and conclude that, because possibility is inevitability, aliens have access to "exotic matter" and use such a trans-light technology. His final argument will be that "science does not know everything", that the laws of physics as we now know them are a transitory approximation to a set of laws known to, and exploited by, our alien visitors.
It is undeniably possible that aliens exist, and that they could even visit the Earth. There is no point to arguing that such a feat of technology would be impossible for humans, because, well, these are aliens, and who is to say that they do not have a "warp drive" or 10,000-year life spans? Skeptics must concede the possibility of alien visitations, I believe, but not their inevitability. The proof, surely, must be found in the pudding. The crucial question that popular UFOlogy must answer is: where is the physical evidence that aliens are visiting the Earth?
Where's the beef?
The lynch pin of a belief in alien visitations has to be a conspiracy theory - the notion that the physical evidence of alien visitations is being kept from the general public by the government or by the aliens themselves. Without a conspiracy theory of some kind a belief in alien visitations is simply untenable, because, in the public domain there is no physical evidence whatsoever that aliens are visiting the Earth.
"Believers" will argue that there is a mountain of evidence - sightings, reports, and even physical evidence like crop circles, mutilated cattle and marks on the ground. But all of these examples of "evidence" are really just claims - it is claimed that what was seen was an alien space ship, or it is claimed that a cow was mutilated by aliens, but there is never any properly scientific proof that aliens were actually involved.
In fact, popular UFOlogy consists entirely of claims, and it is only these claims that are available for study. We simply cannot study the UFO itself (it is unidentified by definition and a transitory phenomenon) and we cannot reproduce the sighting in the laboratory. But we have a mountain of claims about aliens and no physical evidence whatsoever that aliens even exist!
How can we reconcile the claims with the lack of evidence? Skeptics adopt an open-minded approach and put aside the claim of aliens in order to determine the true nature of the phenomenon. The problem, as I have said above, is that most of the time the only "phenomenon" left to study is the claim itself, the UFO having long since departed.
To a "believer", however, there is no distinction between the words "claim" and "evidence". If somebody claims to have seen an alien space ship the "believer" simply asks "is this a reliable witness?", whereas the skeptic would ask "was what he saw an alien space ship?". The "believer", knowing full well that aliens exist and can visit the Earth, takes it for granted that a police officer, or fighter pilot, can recognize an alien space ship when he sees one.
But can he? Try asking somebody that claims to have seen an alien space ship, how he was able to determine that what he saw was (1) a space ship and (2) alien. A small minority will claim to have good reason to have drawn such a conclusion, for example, a conversation with the alien occupants, or a visit in the space ship to an alien planet. But the vast majority of claimants simply saw a light dancing in the night sky, and have no basis whatsoever for concluding that they saw an alien space ship. When questioned they will become defensive ("I know what I saw") or even mildly abusive ("you are closed-minded".)
It is unfortunate that the small minority that do get to meet aliens close-up never, ever, come away from the encounter with any tangible proof that it really happened. Even the "abductees" never manage to swipe so much as an alien ash tray from the interrogation room. It is the complete absence of physical evidence that perplexes skeptics - surely there ought to be something alien left lying about as proof of all these alien visitations?
But the "believers" can explain it easily, and tie everything up in a self-consistent bundle that encompasses everything in a manner that supports their belief. There is a world-wide conspiracy to conceal these alien visitations, operated by the aliens themselves or by a secret government, or both. Every scrap of physical evidence is immediately seized by the agents of this awful conspiracy (perhaps the sinister "Men in Black") wherever it may turn up around the globe. People with dangerous knowledge of this truth are intimidated into silence or made to disappear. Of course, the government denials of knowledge about any alien visitations (such as the recent congressional investigation into the Roswell incident) are simply a part of the cover-up and any evidence that turns up to weaken the cover-up theory is "disinformation".
A skeptic might well be excused for considering this idea to be a little paranoid and for objecting that it constitutes a non-falsifiable hypothesis, but once the "believer" has swallowed this magic pill then he is free to believe anything he wants. It does not help the skeptics that thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, proponents of the conspiracy theory now have access to documents that mention UFOs, written in a time during the cold war when paranoia about the "communist conspiracy" was very real in American politics and in the military. One must expect the American military to have taken a special interest in reports of unusual craft in the skies during the cold war period, be they real, misapprehended or imagined, but "believers" seize upon them as proof of a cover-up and of alien visitations, for there is no smoke without fire.
Ten million flies can't be wrong
At the heart of popular UFOlogy exist a few dedicated individuals. Some of them genuinely believe that aliens are visiting the Earth, based upon a personal experience. Some of them are cynically milking UFOlogy for what they can get out of it. But most "believers" are not like either one of these prototypes. They have simply read a number of books about UFOs, in which claims are presented as fact, and have reasoned that with so many books and magazines and TV shows about alien visitations and with 50% of Americans believing them, there must be something to it.
What harm does it do to believe such a thing? In the majority of cases, probably none. Personally, I don't see a real difference between somebody who writes about alien visitations and somebody who casts horoscopes or runs a "psychic hot line" as "entertainment for adults only". People really want to believe such things for some reason, and are willing to pay to be told what they want to hear. In the final analysis it does not really matter whether 50% of Americans believe in alien visitations or not. If we are not, as some of them think, on the brink of an alien invasion, and if our tax dollars are not being wasted on tin foil hats to keep out alien brain waves, then I see no harm in a bit of fun about little green men, or grays, or whatever.
Furthermore, the notion of a universe teeming with alien voyagers is downright entertaining, and has led to entire genres of art and literature that have been enjoyed by skeptics and believers alike.
There are a couple of exceptions that I would mention, however. The first is the practice of "recovering" memories of alien abductions by hypnosis. If these tortured souls are not really being abducted by aliens (and I note that not a single one has managed to prove it yet) then one has to question the methods and ethics of their hypnotists. One would have hoped that the practitioners of hypnosis themselves would have taken steps to regulate its use, especially in a society as litigious as the United States of America.
The second, and more obvious, case in which the claims of popular UFOlogy do actual harm to people is that of "UFO cults". Of course, UFOlogy is not the only religion to have led to a mass suicide, but unlike most religions UFOlogy claims to have a grounding in scientific research. In fact, there is much to criticize in what passes for "science" in popular UFOlogy, and the advocates of the notion that alien visitiations are supported by properly scientific evidence need to pay attention to what such exaggerated claims can lead to.
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Anon..
I totally agree with everything you have mentioned. I guess what I am trying to get across is that...although I may fall into your "believer" category....I tend to view even my own belief as you describe it as rather amusing but unfounded in and of itself....BECAUSE,
Although I believe in the idea of aliens and space travel and abductions and the whole shebang....I know that there is no sitution in our world or in our society that isnt untainted by the deception, exaggeration, falsification and miscommunication of the masses. A few examples are a little more down to earth, such as religion, I beleive in God (somehwhat), but not because anyone on this planet conviced me God existed. People arent qualified to make that call. But you have a whole slew of priests, pastors, monks, or otherwise swearing up and down and all around that they most certainly are qualified. I try to keep it simple and see past the "hysteria" as you put it, and maintain the integrity of my belief for my own peace of mind. I just cant beleive that a God so powerful as they say would be so short sighted so as to function in any way near how your average Christian claims he does. I just know its beyond my comprehension, and I am more comfortable with that. I dont know what God really is, but somewhere in all the mess and muck out there....little pieces of purity might very well shine through. Same with UFOs , I am not going to claim anything isnt possible because as a human I am not qualified to do so. But whatever is going on cant be all swamp gas and ball lightning. Doesnt make it alien, but that remains to be seen.
I know, you are asking for evidence, I am only providing a perspective...but I think its important to have a belief along with your request. Because if evidence ever did materialize...where would you stand, how would you determine that the evidence was sufficient??
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Carmel, that was my anon post above. i forgot to log on. To be fair, I must tell you I have more than a little experience debating this topic. It is a hobby of mine, debating things from a skeptical perspective.
I have no problem with someone like you that says "I believe but can't really explain my belief." I share a common trait with you on some issues. For example; life on other planets. I believe with no real evidence only because it seems likely to me. However, to profess it as fact is wrong and illogical.
Further, If I was to start FABRICATING evidence of life on other planets, lying, twisting, and forming a pseudo-religion around my belief, I would then resemble UFOlogists in my methodology.
That is what the "UFO community" has done. You apparently aren't a member of said loose community evidenced by your well thought out responses, so our only issue here is a difference of opinion. I love differences of opinon, they give us something to discuss.
Now, would somebody please post some evidence of Aliens? Pretty Please?
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On 2004-05-25 14:49:00, Carmel wrote:
Because if evidence ever did materialize...where would you stand, how would you determine that the evidence was sufficient??"
Carmel, a perponderance of the evidence would cause me to believe. Right now, the perponderance of evidence is sorely lacking, only conspiracy theories, magical thinking, and claims, not evidence. I am interested in an analysis of the Mexican UFO, but you must find interesting, after reading my take, the fact that the original poster (you?) declared "WE ARE NOT ALONE" after posting that link, and declared "THIS IS OUR GOVERNMENT TALKING". It was actually a link to a news site, and the quotes from the goverment said no conclusions had been drawn yet. We also had people post that "thousands of people get abducted, the government is concealing this because they have the solution to energy problems, etc etc. All claims no evidence.
You see where I am going with this?
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I agree 100 percent. Shouldnt be called fact. Buttons missing on keyboard so I will be brief. :roll:
Didnt make original post.
More later.
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They are no more evidence of aliens than they are of flying zombies
You mean you haven't seen the flying zombies?
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On 2004-05-20 17:06:00, LeighBright wrote:
"RTP did you know that Scripture says that God's people are aliens to this world?
Seriously, it really says that!
And it also says that the believer's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom. And where is heaven, RTP?
Somewhere OUT THERE in SPACE!!!!!
I'm just messing with you, man. Don't get mad. We aren't here to hurt you, RTP. We only want to colonize your planet. :lol: "
Jesus is coming back at the helm of an alien battlecruiser and he is PISSED! We must stop him!
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There used to be a cartoon website that showed jesus sitting in an alien ship going around zapping people with an x ray.
funny shit 2003, now tell em how you really feel, sarcasm aside...
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And as those less inclined towards drawing immediate conclusions and accepting the superfantiscal at face value start to examine the EVIDENCE (in this case a film of lights in the sky by Mexian air force pilots), you start seeing that possibly, just possibly, we are alone....
CNN Transcript Of The Anderson Cooper Program
5-17-4
COOPER: Well the Mexican Air Force is releasing infrared video of unidentified flying objects surrounding a surveillance plane. There it is.
Some say the shapes appear to change direction. The pilots who saw these images could be heard yelling, quote, we are not alone?
So, what do you think, is this a close encounter from a UFO as some are claiming? Joining me now from Los Angeles is Michael Shermer, publisher of "Skeptic" magazine. Michael, thanks for being on the program. You have seen the videos. What do you think was really going on?
MICHAEL SHERMER, SKEPTIC MAGAZINE: Well, first of all, a couple interesting things about this clip is that you'll notice the symmetry of the image, the three dots are exactly parallel to each other on the right and then there they are on the left and the one on the far right matches the one on the far left. So that's an in lens, or in camera effect there. That isn't 6 objects, that's 3 being mirror imaged.
This is an infrared camera and, in fact, as I got the reports, the pilots didn't see that when they were up there. They saw it later. When they were shown the footage of the infrared camera. Of course, you are not looking at infrared when you're in the cockpit.
COOPER: So, you don't think it's something in the sky, you think it's something in the camera or in the plane?
SHERMER: I think there's probably something in the sky that's being duplicated. What that is probably a flare or a series of flares or possibly one of these pilotless drone planes that the military are using these days. And I think it's probably being duplicated that way and then being reported. It's hard to say, because the images are hardly blurry.
COOPER: I know you're a skeptic, you think this reminds you of this incident I think back in 1997 the famous Phoenix light incident. What happened there?
SHERMER: That's right. The Phoenix lights turned out to be a series of flares launched by the local Air Force base and there you go, they kind of seem to appear out of nowhere and hovered for quite a long time. And later it was determined that's what they were.
But to people at dusk and at night, it's really hard to tell how far away something is. How big it is, how fast it's moving or not moving. And so what happens when the mind is not clear, it fills in with its own imagination as to what is going on with size, movement, that sort of thing. Then these stories get exaggerated with the retelling.
My note: The film does show three objects that are obviously repeated making six objects....
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I am not an expert on flares...but, I recall the Pheonix lights. Someone please educate me if I seem dense, but....how is it that flares are launched and remain lit and airborne at a fixed height, pattern, and location for an hour or more? Is this new top-secret military flare technology?
I am not opposed to the explaination of flares...but, come on people...sometimes these "natural explainations" tend to push the boundaries of incredulity more than the idea of UFOs and aliens.
PS Greg...a key point here is that although yes, they determined that the light was being duplicated by the camera reflection...they still dont offer any solid explaination other than opinion of what the original three lights were a product of. Even though this is a skeptics point of view, it is not a shred more credible than the loonie toonies point of view. Just because they examined the EVIDENCE, doesnt mean that their conclusion is any more accurate. To me its a choice between two equally outrageous offerings...call it Aliens, or call it flares equipped with artificial intelligence. When it comes down to it, its whatever makes you more comfortable to say. I personally would feel like an asshole saing it was flares. [ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2004-06-01 07:48 ]
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Speaking of the Phoenix UFO's (flares), I have seen extensive analysis including footage from different spots all along the canyons. This was even done as an expose of national news (60 minutes or a program such as this)and it was determined that 1) there were flares right where the UFO's were cited 2) they were not hoovering but dropping slowly 3) several of the flares burned out during descent causing people to believe the UFo "rapidly left the area.
In some footage you can see them very slowly dropping behind the mountain range. In other footage, shot from a different location at the exact time, they appear to be in front of the mountains. Lights in the sky at night are very confusing. Some people reported them instantly disapearing because from their vantage they did disapear, behind the mountains as they slowly descended, but other people continued to record them after the sudden disapearance.
However, these phoenix UFOs,well They are flares...this case has been proven with a perpondaerance of the information by multiple sources investigating the event, yet the "UFO community" insists they were alien spacecraft to this day. Ask yourself why the UFO community still is holding this up as alien spacecraft when it has been decisively shown to not be?
The Flares are light and on parachute and behave very uncharaterisicatly from what you would expect and aren't what some people think..that is flares shot from he ground or free falling.They are used experimentally by the military as well as by people studying wind patterns and wheather.
The mexican UFO's, well Sherman was just conversationally rendering a possible explanation. The jury is out on that one because it just happened. Sometimes (unlike the Phoenix lights) sitings remained a mystery which in no way proves alien spacecraft, it just means not enough information is available to render a positive result. Remember when something is unknown, the least outrageous explanation is more likely to be correct than the superfantastical one.
People mistake for alien spacecraft planes, fixed objects,satellites,planets,helicopters,reflections ball lighting, comets, Missles,and all types of other things including lights on the GROUND,. (possible explanation for the mexican ufo...the camera, mounted under the plane, is an infared camera which was pointed at a nearby town that has Oil refineries with smoke stacks in the pattern that was recorded by the Camera. Remember the pilots never saw the objects with their eyes. Also the pattern repeats which may indicate a phenomena in camera lens that sometimes occurs. This is just a hypothesis at this point... The objects move at a fixed speed and at fixed locations which may indicate they aren't moving at all but the camera is recording the movement of the plane).
In other words Carmel, no one knows yet. A person really really interested in the truth doesn't proclaim "we are not alone" they proclaim that something happened that deserves studying and set out to elimate all possible explanations. Two Very different approches to this "siting". Meanwhile, this has been blasted all around the internet of proof of alien visitors. Why?
No evidence for alien visitation of earth exists only claims.
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The Mexican government stands by its statement. I'm sure they had a good many people look at it in their military with much more resources to do the job than any of us. I don't think they would lie and see being discredited as something wanted. They must have good Intel don't you think? Would you make such a statement with out facts? It?s a government? I don?t think they would.
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First, what is the Statement the mexican government is standing by?
Second, anyone who blindly trusts any government and especially a third world one may need to rethink that.
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http://www.alienscalpel.com/MUFON.htm (http://www.alienscalpel.com/MUFON.htm)
:em:
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I'm not saying I blindly believe anyone, but don't you think the government of Mexico had good reason for thinking there were UFO?s, don't you think Mexican's are honest and smart? They saw something very strange, enough so to tell the world, there has to be a reason why they did that.
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Do I think Mexicans are smart and honest? Hell no, I don't think people at large fit that description. Further, Third world governments are notoriously full of it to the extreme.
Your link about alien implant surgery.....silly. It would be no trick to remove said device and have it submitted for scientific peer review. Why hasn't that been done?
Question begs its own answer. MUFON is a nutcase website.
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So you have declared the entire Mexican government null and void?
Ok,
And the impants have been reviewed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This guy is a doctor from UCLA I believe. This was done on the radio, got to admit it's interesting. Bottom line is I don't know about aliens being real, but this is just an interesing topic.
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No I haven't declared the Mexican Government "null and void" but tell me, where do you find that the Mexican Government is proclaiming these are alien spacecraft?
Further, are you aware that on the film the pilots counting the spacecraft and saying things is after they landed?
As far as anything you hear on The Art Bell show, you can dismiss that as uncredible. Get your alien implants peer reviewed by some real scientists and I will be happier than you to start believing that aliens are visiting here. As of yet these websites, slick as they are, aren't reporting factual events they are reporting similar to the National enquirer and making things up right and left.
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From the alien scapel link...
"It must be stressed, these are only theories as to the origin of the specimens in question based on preliminary data and information. More in-depth studies would be required to prove either one."
Tell me, as explosive as this information would be if it were correct, why haven't these studies been done?
Shit, National Geographic, Science Magazine and any number of legitimate journals would be frothing at the mouth if there was a shred of realism connected to this fantasy....
check this out for a more reasoned opinion..
http://www.aufon.com/stefanduncangaller ... rpoint.htm (http://www.aufon.com/stefanduncangallery/stefanduncangallery/WWWROOT/copy_of_y6k4j9/skepticcounterpoint.htm)
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http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc384.htm (http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc384.htm)
So the crash was in 1947, but according to Col Corso, chip technology was seeded to US manufactures, and specifically Bell Labs, note the story on the creation of chips and the dates in the following???...
http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/kilbyctr/jackbuilt.shtml (http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/kilbyctr/jackbuilt.shtml)
I just find this a weird coincidence? In the same year, what are the odds?
And I'm only having fun with this it's just interesting.
And for the record I don't put this forth as the truth, just something for dialogue, it's all in fun.
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the real fun is busting these liars and fable tellers down, not buying into their crap.
What are the odds? Crap, you can always go in reverse and search for coincidental correlations between non related events, that is no trick. The real trick is going in the future and doing it.
This thread was titled "we are not alone", but I know I am alone, at least tonight....
:cry2:
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Your right about the mexican government, they were quiet on the matter, but it was the pilot and radio operator that had some ineteresting words.
check it out,
"Was I afraid? Yes. A little afraid because we were facing something that had never happened before," said radar operator Lt. German Marin in a taped interview made public Tuesday.
"I couldn't say what it was ... but I think they're completely real," added Lt. Mario Adrian Vazquez, the infrared equipment operator. Vazquez insisted that there was no way to alter the recorded images.
The plane's captain, Maj. Magdaleno Castanon, said the military jets chased the lights "and I believe they could feel we were pursuing them."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/ ... o.ufos.ap/ (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/05/11/mexico.ufos.ap/)
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So are they liars, drunk, or just Mexicans? Or are they damn afraid of what they saw?
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When I feel lonesome and blue ...I get stoned and play with my cock.... :wave:
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I hope it is with the cock's consent.
:grin:
Anyway, no they are not liars or drunk(but def they are mexicans). I believe they do not understand what they saw and no one has stepped forward yet with a rational analysis of the lights. It has been determined that the infared views (much different than a regular camera) had an in affect phenom happening that repeated a light over and over. Also, the camera was pointed straight down and the lights moved at the same speed as the airplane. There happens many times when a camera is fixed on a fixed object from a moving object.
In other words, we don't know Yet what happened.
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http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html (http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html)
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http://ufocasebook.com/102303.html (http://ufocasebook.com/102303.html)
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I know little of this story, but a quick perusal of it indicates the following. The Website claims this..". What are clearly rock carvings with distinctly Egyptian hieroglyphs on them have been discovered in several areas of the Grand Canyon."
Smithsonian comments..."In 1998 ...: "We know of no credible evidence that supports the discovery of ancient Egyptian artifacts or hieroglyphs anywhere in the Americas."
And of the picture of the "hieroglyphs ...
Richard Pulley wrote us about this object with a great explanation:
"Here's a quick comment regarding your trip to the Grand Canyon, xploring for the lost city. I'd read of this before, and it's great to see someone checking this out. However, you might want to reconsider the interpretations for some of your captioned photos. Photo #9 ("As we wandered the high walls...")and photo #10 ("A closer examination...") both portray fossils of naturally occurring animals, not human artifacts. The spiral and the pin are each a different type of cephalapod, a distant living relative of which is the chambered nautilus. As a geologist, I can say this with confidence from just a viewing of the posted phots. Please note that this says nothing about the city at all, one way or the other. The appropriate formations of the Grand Canyon are full of these fossils, and would be no matter whether or not an 'ancient' city happens to be co-located there."
In other words, it appears people not trained in archeology are interpreting things in a manner that is not consistent with facts. No surprise here...some people are always jumping to superfantastical conclusions about things they don't understand. A more reasoned approach is in order.
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and your second link...I just don't have time to research it right now, but there are a miriad of stories like this. The problems with it are there if you wish to look for yourself.
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Look very closely at the Egyptian hieroglyphs on the bottom of Grand Canyon story/link.
http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html (http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html)
What does it look like to you?
It's just very odd,
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Yes it is odd.. That doesn't mean it is not explainable. Enter the biologists proclaiming those are fossils not heiroglyphics.
This is the cruxt of this whole debate. People extrapolate fantastical stories around things they don't understand. Very often alternative explanations exist that while not quite as fun, are much more reasonable and grounded in logical thinking. This is the whole reason for the scientific method, to verify by peer review claims of a scientific nature. This is the commonality of all these outrageous stories, no peer review and the ignoring of all evidence pointing away from their superfantastical claims.
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On 2004-06-10 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
What does it look like to you?
It's just very odd, "
I am not qualified to comment on heiroglyphics. I do know that artifacts are forged all the time. I have doubts egyptians were in the Grand Canyon but would find it extremely interesting if this was ever confirmed by real archeologists and then peer reviewed and confirmed.
Nothing remotely resembling this has occured.
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What if it happened the other way around? Some fairly recently discovered tombs in the high mountains in Western So. America suggest fairly advanced civilization dating back tens of thousands of years. What if the Egyptians are the immigrants, having perhaps survived the impact of that rock that punched the Gulf of Mexico out of what is now the SE US?
Scientists don't really know all that most people think they do. Much of what we're taught as hard fact turns out to be baloney. Remember when polution was supposed to bring about another ice age? So now it's global warming? So quick? Didn't anyone else notice the flip-flop?
There's a lot we don't know.First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
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Yes there is a lot we don't know. Even more reason jumping to wild conclusions about things we don't understand makes no sense whatsoever. Further, when people do so almost always they are shown to be wrong.
Now your example about pollution above actually tends to show the beauty of the scientific method because it is self correcting with new information. Science has built in correctional systems that allow for theories to be challenged and proven false. Yes, again you are so correct, we have only scratched the surface for potential scientific knowledge.
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On Bill Knells home page there is a guy with a mohawk playing a horn or smoking a bong. I have seen that figure several places in New Mexico. Anyone know what it is or what it means.
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On 2004-06-10 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look very closely at the Egyptian hieroglyphs on the bottom of Grand Canyon story/link.
http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html (http://cknell.tripod.com/unexplained/grandcanyon.html)
What does it look like to you?
It's just very odd, "
the figure is on this link
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On 2004-06-10 14:28:00, GregFL wrote:
Even more reason jumping to wild conclusions about things we don't understand makes no sense whatsoever.
I think speculating is just fine. So long as we bear in mind that we really can't be 100% sure of a lot of things. The Lutheran type philosophies I learned growing up expressed it as a rejection of manifest destiny. Or, in other words, the ends can never justify imoral means because only God knows for sure how anything will turn out, and he's not talking, except maybe to the pscizophrenics.
I think the problem comes in when we try to justify coercion w/ what we think we know as facts. Compulsory school attendance, which has been enforced at gun point often enough in our history, is a good example of how not to do it. The idea goes that we must send our kids to school so that they can learn all the facts and skills they'll need. But the schools teach them all kinds of untruths and philosophies that are offensive to many of the parents. It's not just DARE and Narconon, either. My kid's ecconomics book opened w/ a chapter on how every American's primary contribution to society was to be a good, overly indulgant, utterly spoiled consumer. So sure are the Copybook Authors of what every kid should be taught that they compel the rest of us to pay them to teach it and seek make escape at least inconvenient.
The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
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Yes but I think the discussion here is more about a cultural clash between two ways of thinking...credulous and incredulous.
credulous thinking is what causes society at large to accept things without question. Space aliens exist, for example. People can predict the future...telekensis...faith healers. These things are accepted as real by many people with nothing but anecedotal evidence.
Or take it a step further. The drug war..people accept it when all evidence points to its failure. Why? because they are told it is true and point to its hooky evidence of sucess. Or even on a more personal note...Locking kids up in thought reform works...why..well we have been told drugs are bad and these programs have a 90% success rate and just look at little johnnie over there..he certainly is better after his little stint in wilderness camp, isn't he?
Where is the demand for evidence? The demand for valid statistics? Why the rejection of the evidence to the contrary? Does believing in the program make the public feel good at large? Does the drug war make them feel safer? (and why do many people that use/used drugs support prohibition?). It is because we are lemmings and believe the bullshit we are told to believe, and then our society feeds on our belief.
I contend it is all a part of the same credulous thought process, and it is seemingly innocuous to most people and very destructive upon further examination.
Critical thinking and skeptical analysis will set you free.
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I looked RY and didn't see the figure. Even if I had I really don't know how to interpret such things correctly. we got an archeologist with us?
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On 2004-06-10 16:17:00, GregFL wrote:
(and why do many people that use/used drugs support prohibition?). It is because we are lemmings and believe the bullshit we are told to believe, and then our society feeds on our belief.
No, they don't actually believe it. They just paste on the DARE bumper stickers for the same reason we all mow our lawns and wear clothing; because our neighbors would take it the wrong way if we didn't.
I contend it is all a part of the same credulous thought process, and it is seemingly innocuous to most people and very destructive upon further examination.
Critical thinking and skeptical analysis will set you free.
Sure as the day is long; a little more in the Summer and less in the Winter. (heh) Like I said, it's alright to speculate--honing your theories as sharply as you can. So long as we don't get all full of ourselves and start thinking that our convictions are solid enough to justify imoral acts against others.
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But they DO believe it. I have beat my head against the wall talking to friends of mine that are solid republicans and also partake in a little weed or coke here and there. When you talk drug war, they shrug it off and say drugs should be illegal. When you say, "then you are advocating your own arrest and detainment" they go into circular arguments about children and drugs, legalization causing more drug use, etc, etc.
Why do they believe it and why have they bought into this drug war hype? Because they have swallowed the bait hook line and sinker with no evidence that the drug war is working and plenty of evidence to the contrary. They have conditioned themselves to believe everything they are told without question even when it flies against their own behavior. This credulous thinking can be demonstrated in other areas of society as well and I believe it is destructive and dangerous.
Take faith healers for example. These guys are on tv almost every day. No one gives a shit, they either believe or laugh at them. Gobs of evidence exist that they are just crooks and not one iota of real evidence exists that they have ever cured anyone. Why should anyone care? First, they steal money in a very organized fashion from stupid people, perhaps even people in your own family. Second, they cause many people to go off their medication and possibly cause sickness and/or death. My own father stopped taking his heart medication after a stint with a faith healer and he is a heart patient. He ended back on gobs of medication but still says he is better now and god cured him. His doctor would beg to differ as would all that know him.
But, God is good and God can cure sickness we are told. If you are against faith healers you are fighting god, you are on the side of "evil". We know so because we have been told so. Therefore as a society we close our eyes to this blantant injustice. A wink and a nod at criminals stealing millions of dollars and causing people to forgoe legitimate treatment protocols.
Credulous thinking is dangerous.
Speculation is much different than credulous thinking. Speculation is fun. If we look up to the sky and say "there must be life somewhere out there", that is speculation and it is harmless. When we look up and see a light and say "aliens are preparing to invade our country", well, that is what I speak of above.
I am sorry if this topic is jumping around, I am just trying to connect a thought thru several different topics.[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-11 06:09 ]
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... asquatch_1 (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040611/ap_on_fe_st/yukon_sasquatch_1)
I believe in big feet.
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:grin:
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-11 07:30 ]
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On 2004-05-26 17:22:00, GregFL wrote:
"There used to be a cartoon website that showed jesus sitting in an alien ship going around zapping people with an x ray.
funny shit 2003, now tell em how you really feel, sarcasm aside...
"
I really want to believe in UFOs and aliens, after all, I grew up watching Star Trek, then Star Wars, but the skeptic in me is not convinced--there simply is not credible evidence. Flying zombies, on the other hand, are real. One landed his plane on the deck of a US Navy aircraft carrier with a banner that read "Mission Accomplished" about a year ago. It was all over the news. I'm sure you saw the pictures.
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"Mexian Air force UFO's Likely equipment artifacts"
by Kevin Christopher
on March 5, 2004, a mexican air force plane recorded bright blurred orbs on its infared imaging system over campeche state. The pilots reported that their radar detected strange objects flying nearby during a routine drug surveillance flight and their infared camera showed eleven blobs of light, invisible to the eye, hovering and darting around the aircraft.
Several weeks later on April 22, Mexican Defense Secretary Ricardo vega Garcia gave video footage of the encounter to Jaime Maussan, a UFOlogist and television journalist who hosts Los Grandes Misterios del Tercer Milenio (great mysteries of the third millennium) boradcast on the Mexican TV network Mutlimedios Television. "This is historic news" he told reporters during a May 11 press conference. "Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country....The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds." Maussan screened a fifteen minute segment from the tape for reporters.
As Mexican and international media published photographs of the objects, UFO web sites cited the case as evidence of some form of extraterrestrial life. As of this writing, Secratary Vega Garcia insisted that the military had reached no conclusion about the images.
"there are seven observations we can make about the objects seen in the video", asys James McGaha, a retired US Air Force major, astronomer, and technical consultant for the committee for the scientific investigation of claims of the paranormal. "they move in a straigbht line. They are at approximately the same altitude as aircraft-ten thousand feet. They show no vertical motion. They move at a constant velocity, no acceleration. Duplicate images occur. Distances are uniform within each formation. They are bright images that are out of focus. All of these observations are consistent with internal system generates images. That is, reflections, noise or mirages. It's important to note that the pilots never saw these objects visually, only through the infared imaging system. It's very likely that they used the system incorrectly and that this misuse generate spurious targets."
McGaha also dismissed skeptics and scientists who have rushed to seemingly reasonable explanations that are inconsistent with the facts already known. "There is no evidence that the objects in the video are flying saucers from another world" say McGaha. "the ridiculous claims of believers are bad enough, but its even worse to see skeptics and scientists engaging in unwarranted speculation. It is unfortunate that they have come out with suggestions that it was ball lightning, fireballs, meteors, or others re-entering debris. This is just nonsense. These atmospheric phenomena do not persist anywhere near as long as the images recorded on the video did."
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Many people worldwide have sworn to have seen UFO?s
Thousands claim that they have been abducted, and many more than once.
Numerous high level members of our military and every branch of the government have given depositions that this is true.
This is true of other governments as well.
The astronaut?s that landed on the moon said Aliens where there watching them! Why would they say that? And not just one of them made this claim!
Thousands of pictures exist,
There are thousands of cases of cattle mutilations,
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufoanim.htm (http://foia.fbi.gov/ufoanim.htm)
There are compelling stories in all major cultures, many going back thousands of years,
There are hieroglyphics depicting UFOS
There are many legends espousing the same, all over the world.
So have I seen one? No! Do I think they are real? Very possibly. Can I prove that they are not real? No! Can you prove they don?t exist? NO, And hell even if I was abducted tomorrow and swore to you that it happened you wouldn?t believe me? Kind of like people don?t believe what happened to us in Straight or the Seed.
Obviously any real proof is in government hands, and it?s just a hunch, but I don?t think they will let me see it. And the people that have been in charge of the proof, with first hand knowledge, and swear that it?s true are called liars, or crazy, or just after a buck. It just doesn?t add up.
The preponderance of evidence suggests it has to be real. This has been going on for thousands of years. Is every one of the cases put forth lies? Is it all a fabrication? Everybody made it up? I don?t think so; the story has been around for thousands of years.
I just think that it?s a very distinct possibility that?s all. If it?s not the universe sure is a waste of space don?t you think?
Take care all,
Now beam me up Scottie!
LOL
seeyaa
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Regarding the Mexican Airforce, you may be correct. The article makes sense, but good luck with the thousands of other cases, all through history. It just doesn't add up.
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"Many people worldwide have sworn to have seen UFO?s"
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Yes, and before modern machinery, many people claimed to see flying witches on brooms. Many people claim to have seen Bigfoot also as well as any number of cultural phenomena that contains no physical evidence. The numbers lend no credibility whatsoever . For instance millions of people of Islamic and millions of people are christian. They both can't be right but they both can be wrong. This proves that millions of people can believe in something unprovable and be wrong.
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"Thousands claim that they have been abducted, and many more than once."
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So? Thousand also claim past lives, physcic abilities and other nonsense that has no evidence backing it up.
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"Numerous high level members of our military and every branch of the government have given depositions that this is true. "
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You must be refering to the "disclosure project" where it was claimed this was forthcoming. It hasn't happened and likely won't. Two years ago a handfull of people said they would provide conclusive proof immediately and it hasn't materialized. (holding my breath)
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"The astronaut?s that landed on the moon said Aliens where there watching them! Why would they say that? And not just one of them made this claim!"
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No they didn't, this is a fabrication of the nutball UFO community. I linked earlier to Aldrin's actual statement...look it up. It is neither fantastical or conspiratorial. The UFO community fabricated a myth around a very benign statement.
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"Thousands of pictures exist"
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As well as thousands of proven frauds and explained phenomena. The UFO community continues to embrace pictures after they have been analyized and explained. Sheer numbers mean nothing because not ONE picture has been confirmed as alien in nature. Ask yourself not why there are thousands of pictures, but why out of the thousands of known frauds and explained pics not one confirmed alien picture exists. That is the real question.
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"There are thousands of cases of cattle mutilations,"
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and this proves what exactly?
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"There are hieroglyphics depicting UFOS"
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No there are not. This fraud was first perpetrated by a known nut who wrote "chariots of the gods". These pics are actually known by people trained in Archeology as other than aliens. people embrace the fantastic and ignore the actual evidence. It is there if you really wan't to know.
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"Can I prove that they are not real? No!"
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Of course you can't...anymore than you can prove that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and leprachauns aren't real. There is no way to disprove something that is likely fabricated. You cannot disprove a negative. Try this, disprove this statement...."a four legged multiheaded invisible monster from another solar system invaded earth and mutated cattle and made crop circles."
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"The preponderance of evidence suggests it has to be real."
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Sorry, but there is not one iota of evidence that suggests aliens have visited earth. NONE.
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"the story has been around for thousands of years."
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I challenge you to find one piece of literature older than 200 years old that mentions alien spacecraft. Post it here....
and for insight into how the UFO community "verifies" evidence, check this out...MUFON, the largest and most respected UFO people believing research body, twice certified a microsoft mouse as an actual UFO!!!
http://ufohoax.tripod.com/ (http://ufohoax.tripod.com/)
LMFAO!!!!!
over and out.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-23 14:14 ]
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Having a real bad day today, but thanks to you, you brightened it up a bit. Look I just think it?s real possible. You as always present a good case and when I have more time I?ll post better links to look at. Are they real, hell I don?t know? I just find it very interesting. I?m in the middle of moving, so when I have a chance, I?ll dispel some of your statements.
Until then stay cool Greg, your da bomb
Ok now,
Beam me up Scottie, I?m out of here??????
UK here we come,
vsp
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glad your day is better my friend!
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What if there are beings from another planet scoping out Earth?
What would that mean?
What if they aren't what they appear to be; or say they are? What if they are something else entierly? What else might they be? What reason might they have for pretending to be alein beings from other worlds?
If a bunch of people suddenly vanish without a trace all at once, how would you explain it?
What explanation would seem most acceptable to you?
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What if a colony of super small intelligent beings lived in your ass and made you scratch every time you suspected they were there?
What if? What else could it be making your ass scratch? What other explanation makes any sense?
What if?
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Seriously, ahem, anon...I believe you are making a vague baiting reference to the supposed "rapture".
Am I in the ballpark? Are you suggesting the "aliens" are demons?
COMON, give it to us straight up!!!! We wanna hear your theory, really!!!!!
:grin:
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Hi Greg :smile:
I have no well formed theory about alliens. I do wonder about a lot.
I expect time will tell.
I do think there is *something* besides dream work going on.
I do believe there is a lot of evidence that *something* else is out there/here.
I know you don't. I'm not trying to change your mind. But it is always good to cast your mind over the various what ifs.
On a *possibly* related subject:
What do you think about the stone pictures in (I think)Peru's? They intrigue me. Now WHY would ancient south American Indians take thousands and thousands of stones; lay them out to form images of spiders and monkeys ad snakes; that could only be viewed from way up in the sky? HOW did they do it? These things are monstrously large and make no sense unless viewed from an airplane. How could they even know How to do that?
*Something* outside of the norm was going on when they made those stone pictures.
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there are two anons greg
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Gregg,
Actually, I?m in your camp in a way. I have not seen first hand proof. But I think it?s possible and almost probable. Interestingly enough that is ?the
? Predominate governmental view, worldview aside from the United States. We will just have to wait and see, the jury?s still out. I just enjoy looking and listening in on the topic. I hope it?s true to an extent. I?m hoping that maybe they can sort out our eve of destruction. It?s a long shot but maybe lol! Or then again they could be an alien biker gang>>>>
Regarding the ?Rapture?, I don?t believe in that, I believe it?s more of a metaphor than a literal story. Maybe ascension to the Mother ship if there is one! LOL ahahha
Regarding the Hieroglyphics your wrong about that, the one I posted wasn?t Von Danikin, sp? But I do have to prove it, so let me look in a few days, If I find it great, if I can?t then I?m wrong, The looking is the fun part.
Anyway take care,
vsp
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Here is a link to the Naska Lines in Peru. what's you theroy on that?
http://www.crystalinks.com/nasca.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/nasca.html)
vsp :question:
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Cool. Would love to review the evidence here with you.
Just so you know, I would love to see evidence of Alien visitation to earth. I even suspect very strongly that life exists outside our little Space oasis, perhaps even very intelligent life (unlike us?). I even saw unexplained things in the sky growing up in St Pete, not realizing that one of the premier air force basis on the planet was just across the bay from my house.
The UFO community is a collection of crackpots that self feed on each other's erroneous information, wild explanations and fabrications. That doesn't mean that evidence cannot exist for Alien visitation. Where is it? People seem to assume that volumes of information denote legitimacy. It does not.
Didn't mean to be flip either to anon I was just in a whimsical mood.
Stones in Peru laid out in the shape of animals...very cool and unexplained. Still not evidence of Alien visitation.Unexplained or misunderstood doesn not automatically point to aliens. I will look a little into it because frankly I haven't formulated any opinion yet.
By the way, several times it has been mentioned about american astronauts and aliens on the moon. This is pure fabrication, and here are the unexciting links to the truth.
http://www.debunker.com/texts/apollo11.html (http://www.debunker.com/texts/apollo11.html)
http://www.debunker.com/texts/astronaut_ufo.html (http://www.debunker.com/texts/astronaut_ufo.html)
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-23 19:53 ]
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:wstupid:
me...forgot to log in...
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Okay, spent about 15 minutes researching the artifacts in Peru which makes me an armchair idiot of sorts on this topic. I really am not a expert in culture and/or archeology but when researching a topic I always exlude supernatural and conspiratoral websites and go to the people who are trained in the area in question. But even reviewing the "Crystallinks.com" paranormal site you linked me too which quotes the Fraud Erich von Daniken (chariots of the gods..a book that has been shamefully discredited within the archological community) indicates that much evidence exists for religious purposes for the drawings. More scientific sites are much clearer in their theory.. check this out....
"The purpose of the drawings is uncertain, but it is believed to be connected to their beliefs and economical systems. According to anthropologist Johan Reinhard, the Nazca people believed that mountain gods protected humans and controlled the weather. These gods also affected water sources and land fertilitysince they are associated with lakes, rivers and the sea. Each figure might have a different meaning for the Nazca people depending on their social class.
The straight lines, as sacred paths, from Nazca to Andean highlands are still used to bring water. Today, these lines are maintained for the religious merit of the people. The triangles and trapezoids are made for the flow of water and are placed near the river. People often have ceremonies beside the water flow. The figure of spirals depicts seashells and the ocean, and the figure of zigzags illustrates lightning and river. The bird figures, representing a heron, pelican or condor, are believed to be signs of faithfulness to the mountain gods. Other sea birds are associated with the ocean. Monkeys and lizards represent the hope for water. Shark or killer whale motifs show the success of fishing. Spiders, millipedes and plants are associated with the rain. Even though the Nazca River was located near this cultural area, river water was not enough to support their agricultural needs.
Some questions are still debated among specialists. Why were so many lines necessary? How and why did people draw such large figures on the ground without any aerial vision or aerial equipment? We may never understand the true meaning of the Nazca Lines, but we can decipher pieces of the traditional Andean people's belief system from these great geoglyphs."
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ ... nazca.html (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/south/cultures/nazca.html)
Now this subject demands a quick compare/contrast of the credulous mind versus the mind that craves real information. Some people would see these figures, not knowing crap about crap about Peruvian culture and just immediately assume something absolutely fantastical, supernatural or of alien origin was going on. In absense of any information whatsoever except like minded credulous people, they would even assume alien spacecrafts directed or assisted the Indians in making them. Remember that unexplained only means unexplained and humans have a less than credible history of assigning supernatural answers to things we don't understand...lightning being bolts from heaven, etc.
the scientific, skeptical or rational person would seek information from sources that may prepose to have explanations that tend to make sense within the known body of information that exists, not create fantastical scenarios around an wonderous event or artifact.
Now, if one of those giant sculptures was a picture of ET on his bycycle phoning home, YOU WOULD THEN HAVE AN INTERESTING THEORY.
But alas, they all depict items common to their culture and religious worship is within the realm of believablility.
Why did they do it? It appears probably to appease their particular gods as they were looking down on them. How? I don't know but physically it is within the realm of possible and also the calculations aren't really that difficult to follow.
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more
"The Nasca lines became of interest to anthropologists after they were seen from the air in the 1930s. It is unlikely that a project of this magnitude was not religious in purpose. To involve the entire community for many centuries indicates the supreme significance of the site. Like pyramids, giant statues, and other monumental art, the Nasca art speaks of permanence. It says: we are here and we are not moving. These are not nomads, nor are they hunters and gatherers. This is an agricultural society. It is, of course, a pre-scientific agricultural society, who turned to magic and superstition (i.e., religion) to assist them with their crops. The Nacza had the knowledge to irrigate, plant, harvest, collect, distribute, etc. But the weather is fickle. Things might go smoothly for years, or even centuries, and then, in a single generation entire communities are forced to leave because of extended drought or because of floods or tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, fires, or whatever else Mother Nature might hurl their way.
Was this a site for worship? Was this the Mecca of the Nasca? a place of pilgrimage? Were the images part of rituals aimed at appeasing the gods or asking for help with the fertility of the people and the crops, or with the weather or with a good supply of water? That the figures could not be seen as those in the heavens might see them would not be that important for religious or magical purposes. In any case, similar figures to the giants at Nasca decorate the pottery found in nearby burial sites and it is apparent from their cemeteries that the Nasca were preoccupied with death. Mummified remains litter the desert, discarded by grave robbers. Was this a place for rituals aimed at bringing immortality to the dead? We don't know, but if this mystery is ever to be cleared up it will be by serious scientists, not by alienated pseudoscientific speculators molding the data to fit their extraterrestrial musings."
http://nascaperu.com/ (http://nascaperu.com/)
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Delving away from Peru to ancient Egypt...
http://members.shaw.ca/mjfinley/vondaniken.html (http://members.shaw.ca/mjfinley/vondaniken.html)
Vondainiken started this bullshit. He is a fraud. People still believe that ancient depictions of astronauts exist. they do not.
vndaniken has even admitted to having artifacts made so people would believe his stories (after being caught of course).
Still, people still accept his fantasys at face value. The real question is why?
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VSP, you were referring to the "helicopter Glyph" I assume. It is a well researched glyph and has been discussed at length. This is from a pro UFO website that purports to actually investigate claims...
First thing of note is that the glyph exists but unfortunately the rendering you linked to has been altered and changed to appear more "helicopter like" and "submarine like" and "UFO like". Check out this quote and then read the entire link and view both the altered picture and the acutal one. Feel cheated by the people who banter around the altered photo? You should... I think you will find the truth about this both enlightning and fascinating as I have after spending the last hour reading about it both by egyptian scholars and by UFO nuts.
":..., I am afraid that you have been subjected to the famous "Abydos helicopter" mania, here. There is a simple explanation to what you are seeing, at least, as we see it in Egyptology. There is no mystery here; it's just a _palimpsest_ (though without the use of that term, and which is defined as "... A manuscript, typically of papyrus or parchment, that has been written on more than once, with the earlier writing incompletely erased and often legible" AHED). It was decided in antiquity to replace the five-fold royal titulary of Seti I with that of his son and successor, Ramesses II. In the photos, we clearly see "Who repulses the Nine Bows," which figures in some of the Two-Ladies names of Seti I, replaced by "Who protects Egypt and overthrows the foreign countries," a Two-Ladies name of Ramesses II. With some of the plaster that once covered Seti I's titulary now fallen away, certain of the superimposed signs do indeed look like a submarine, etc., but it's just a coincidence.
What is happening in the photographs is quite clear; just consult Juergen von Beckerath, Handbuch der aegyptischen Koenigsnamen, Muenchner aegyptologische Studien 20, pages 235 and 237.
This issue comes up from time to time on such academic e-mail lists as the Ancient Near East (ANE) List and so on, so we're all pretty familiar with it. Regards. Katherine Griffis-Greenberg"
Member, American Research Center in Egypt
International Association of Egyptologists
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Special Studies
http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_arch ... bydos.html (http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_archeo/Abydos/abydos.html)
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-23 21:36 ]
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That doesn't make sense. How long ago was this billboard rewritten in the Egypt Temple? Was it last year with cement from Home Depot? Nice try. And by the way I don't necessarily support the sites, I'm just displaying links to pictures. Please attack the pictures, not the link. Nasca Lines is a mystery; all your links are opinion and speculation. No one knows for sure. It?s just damn odd, and some of these are miles long, no simple feat. It was important and not for water flow like your link suggest. Most of these images are very shallow in rock depth.
Beam me up!
Take Care,
vsp
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But VSP, it is egyptian WRITING that is easily translated by Scholars. Laymen like you and I cannot understand Heiroghlyphics (or even spell it). So my question to you is, do you think the egyptologists are participating in a conspiracy to cover up the helicopter? Second question...can't you see the blantant differences between the photo on the website you linked and the actual picture? Why is it necessary for the UFO nuts to embellish the picture? Why is this so common in the UFO community and so accepted?
As far as the Peruvian lines, it makes more sense to me that they were trying to appease the gods than to appease aliens. From our known body of knowledge we know that ancient civilizations worshipped multiple gods. We have no evidence of aliens. There is no certainty to the reason of the Images, but one must examine the evidence and opinions and decide Which explanation makes more sense. To me the one with history and probablity behind it not the one that requires imagination and faith in unknown phenomena. Absense of knowledge should lead one to the most rational explanation
I find this subject fun but I gotta go to bed.
CyA!
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I agree with you Greg that the Reason for the 'lines' was of a devotional nature. Or maybe just art.
For me the interest lies in this question:
"How and why did people draw such large figures on the ground without any aerial vision or aerial equipment?"
I am not trying to support the notion of alleins with referance to the lines. But *Something* not normally experainced by people in general was going on.
I like to consider and debate What that something was.
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Well, it is hard to debate something of which the answer is uncertain. We can speculate and we can surmise. Keeping in mind that when more than one answer is available, it is much more likely that the simpler answer is correct.
The experts in Peruvian archeology have speculated as well. Here is what some of them believe...
"The Nasca plain is virtually unique for its ability to preserve the markings upon it, due to the combination of the climate (one of the driest on Earth, with only twenty minutes of rainfall per year) and the flat, stony ground which minimises the effect of the wind at ground level. With no dust or sand to cover the plain, and little rain or wind to erode it, lines drawn here tend to stay drawn. These factors, combined with the existence of a lighter-coloured subsoil beneath the desert crust, provide a vast writing pad that is ideally suited to the artist who wants to leave his mark for eternity.
The pebbles which cover the surface of the desert contain ferrous oxide. The exposure of centuries has given them a dark patina. When the gravel is removed, they contrast with the color underneath. In this way the lines were drawn as furrows of a lighter color, even though in some cases they became prints. In other cases, the stones defining the lines and drawings form small lateral humps of different sizes. Some drawings, especially the early ones, were made by removing the stones and gravel from their contours and in this way the figures stood out in high relief.
The concentration and juxtaposition of the lines and drawings leave no doubt that they required intensive long-term labor as is demonstrated by the stylistic continuity of the designs, which clearly correspond to the different stages of cultural changes."
http://nascaperu.com/nasca_and_nazca.htm (http://nascaperu.com/nasca_and_nazca.htm)
So my answer is.....I don't know. I am willing to accept that I can't know everything. I see no evidence of supernatural or superwonderous here, tho. Much like the pyramids in this region and in other areas of the world, Man of the last 5000 or so years thousand ago was capable of much more than we tend to give them credit for now. Keep in mind that slave labor was virtually free back then and time was of no essence. It possibly took hundreds of years to finish all these designs. But math existed. Artistry existed. complicated building structures and techniques existed. It is not out of the realm of the ordinary that this could be accomplished, it is just really cool that it was.
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As far as "How", they pretty much know as evidenced by the writing above.
As to "why" one can only speculate. I tend to lean toward giving the gods something pleasing to look down upon so to bless them with rainfall and/or good crops. This seems about as reasonable an explanation as available.
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The erosion theory regarding the Helicopter and plane doesn't make sense to me. I do see that the two pictures don't match up, however in the older original version the plane and chopper are visible. Erosion from water or wind doesn't happen with straight sharp lines, they would be rounded and irregular. And if this were a layer flaking off the same would hold true. It wouldn't be perfect straight lines. It just doesn't look right; I'll look into it more when I have a chance, but liked reading the articles you posted. Regarding the Egyptian officials, they have been notorious about no granting rights for serious investigations on a number of sensitive sites for many years. There is supposed to be a big room under the foot of the Sphinx. They believe it to be the hall of records, which has been mentioned in many Egyptian texts. Who knows, but it is very interesting to read and learn, maybe someday after this damn war we are in, I'll go and look for my self.
Take Care,
vsp
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Well, By *How* I am asking something a bit different. I'm not wondering about what they did at ground level to make marks on the earth; I'm wondering how they managed to envision what it would look like from the aire; How they managed to make such clear drawings when they were unable to view the canvus?
Intreging, isn't it?
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Not really all that intriquing. Take something similar on a smaller scale...crop circles. You cannot see them while you are making them but you can complete very complex designs.
The secret is in the layout beforehand.
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On 2004-06-24 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The erosion theory regarding the Helicopter and plane doesn't make sense to me.
Take Care,
vsp
"
But VSp, it isn't a theory it is known throut the entire community of people who study Egytptian artifacts. It is a language that can be specifically read , both the old and the new messages are clear and the practice was very common. The resemblence to a helicopter is coincidental and the picture you linked us to is a shameless forgery.
The real question should be that if I, a very amateur skeptical hobbyiest, can find within 10 minutes the fact that the picture circulating the web and posted on numerous UFOlogy websites is a forgery, why is the picture still there? Why are forgeries not only ignored but actually embraced by the new age and UFo conspiracy crowd? Anyone searching for the truth would reject this immediately.
It should cause anyone who is interested in this stuff to take great care in believing anything they claim. Just in this thread alone the evidence for their lack of crediblity is overwhelming. Certifying twice a microsoft mouse as a real alien spacecraft? Think about that for a minute.
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You missed the point. I agree about the picture, but the erosion theory doesn?t make sense. I only posted the site from a picture search that's all. I'm just questioning the picture itself. The old one or original that you posted, the picture is still there. Erosion or flaking doesn't happen like that. And even the first picture still shows a plane clearly. Look at the tail and wing? That?s not erosion it was carved. It?s a specific picture.
Oh and by the way you trust the Egyptians and not the Mexicans? What?s with that? Hell at least the Mexicans drink Corona and aren?t talking about Allah all the time and their suicide bomber friends.
LOL
Beam me up Spock,
vsp
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Lol. Hey, I trust no one explicitly. But I do think that if it indeed was a plane, a helicopter and a submarine, the people that have studied this stuff their whole life would be all over it. Instead they have pretty much ALL offered up a unfortunately begnin explanation that squelches the UFO fantasy prone embellishments.
VSP, it isn't EROSION per se according to the archeologists. It is a combination of a glyp that has been written over by another glyph and then the entire glyph has deteriorated and lost material.
You are thinking of erosion over time, similar to erosion caused by wind or rain that causes rounding of sharp edges. This is in a protected area and is different...
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-25 06:01 ]
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Swtiching now to UFO and the space program....this is fun!
On 2004-06-23 13:32:00, VSP wrote:
"
Many people worldwide have sworn to have seen UFO?s.....
The astronaut?s that landed on the moon said Aliens where there watching them! Why would they say that? And not just one of them made this claim!
"
"Careful examination of each and every one of these stories (and they total more than 20 or 30) can produce quite reasonable explanations, in terms of visual phenomena associated with space flights. On a visit to the NASA Johnson Space Center in Houston in July 1976, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, of the Center for UFO Studies, concluded that none of the authentic cases (as opposed to the majority of reports, which are fictitious) really had anything to do with the "real UFO phenomenon."
Skeptical investigators, while pleased that Hynek had dismissed all "astronaut UFO reports" as unreliable, have insisted that this body of stories has quite a lot to do with the major problems besetting the UFO community. How, they ask, can a body of stories so patently false and unreliable obtain such seeming authenticity simply by being passed back and forth among researchers without ever being seriously investigated? Is this a characteristic of UFO stories in general; and if so, the skeptics ask, can a study of how the "astronaut UFO" myth began and flourished help us to understand better the UFO phenomenon in general?"
http://www.debunker.com/texts/astronaut_ufo.html (http://www.debunker.com/texts/astronaut_ufo.html)
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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and the real truth about astronauts and UFos....
"Often astronauts are quoted about UFOs. Sometimes they are referring to experiences they have had before or after their roles in the space program. In other eases they are making general statements based on reading the news media. Many quotations are fictitious. Only one astronaut claims to have seen a UFO in space, and that is Jim McDivitt, who stipulates that his definition of a UFO covers the probability that his object was some other man-made satellite which has not been identified. He does not think it was an alien space vehicle or any such similar "real UFO" manifestation."
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The Majestic Documents, evidence we are not alone.
Robert M. Wood, Ph.D. E-mail: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/ (http://www.majesticdocuments.com/)
Busy packing, but couldn't resist. I'm going to visit Stone Hendge soon,
vsp
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Great! an appeal to authority. I am clicking now to read the evidence of aliens...get back to you after I read. Man, am I excited...EVIDENCE!!!!!
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Man, what a disapointment, but nevertheless expected result. Offical looking smoking gun documents that are alas...(drumroll please).......FORGERIES.
Check it out...
"One of the original MJ-12 documents released by Moore and his two partners (UFO lecturer Stanton Friedman and TV producer Jaime Shandera) purported to be a memo from President Truman to Defense Secretary James Forrestal, dated September 24, 1947, which authorized the creation of the MJ-12 group. My investigation revealed that the Truman signature was a pasted-on photocopy of a genuine signature-including accidental scratch marks-from a memo that Truman wrote to Vannevar Bush on October 1, 1947 (see "New evidence of MJ-12 hoax," SI 14[2], Winter 1990).
A second MJ-12 document released by Moore et al. purported to be a November 18, 1952, briefing for President-elect Eisenhower, prepared by Rear Admiral R.H. Hillenkoetter, who had been director of the CIA and, purportedly, was now head of MJ-12. There were numerous flaws in the "Eisenhower Briefing Document" (EBD), the most obvious being its reference to the (bogus) Truman memo of September 24, 1947.
Further, the EBD repeatedly used a very unusual date-format-a hybrid combination of civil and military formats with a superfluous comma, i.e., 18 November, 1952. This unusual hybrid date-format was one repeatedly used by William L. Moore in his personal letters - until I pointed out this "curious coincidence" in my first article debunking the original MJ-12 papers (see SI 12[2], Winter 1987-1988). The third of the MJ-12 documents made public by Moore et al. in mid-1987 purported to be a brief memo, dated July 14, 1954, from Robert Cutler to USAF Chief of Staff General Twining informing him of change of date to brief the President on the "MJ-12 Special Studies Project." Investigation revealed that on the date that Cutler allegedly wrote the memo, he was out of the country. Moore claimed that he and Shandera had found the Cutler memo in an unlikely location when they visited the National Archives. The memo, which had been double-folded, could easily have been carried into the Archives in Moore's or Shandera's coat pocket. Less than two years before Moore made public the initial MJ-12 papers-on April 16, 1983-he had confided to then-close friend and UFOlogist Brad Sparks that he was contemplating creating and releasing some hoax Top Secret documents-as first revealed in the March 1997 issue of my Skeptics UFO Newsletter. Moore explained to Sparks that he hoped such bogus documents would encourage former military and intelligence officials who knew about the government's (alleged) UFO coverup to break their oaths of secrecy. Sparks strongly recommended against the idea.
It was not until nearly seven years after release of the original MJ-12 documents that a new "MJ-12 document" surfaced on March 14, 1994. On that date, Don Berliner, a long-time pro-UFOlogist, received in the mail an undeveloped roll of 35 mm film from an anonymous source. When the film was processed, Berliner found photos of what purported to be copies of pages from a "Top Secret/MAJIC/Eyes Only" special operations manual (SOM 1-01) intended to inform military crews how to recover crashed saucers and their ET crews. SOM 1-01, purportedly printed in April 1954, contains many flaws. For example, it stated that crashed ET craft should be sent to "Area 51 S-4" in Nevada. But that portion of Nellis Air Force Base was not given the name "Area 51" until several years after SOM 1-01 allegedly was printed.
As a result of numerous flaws in SOM 1-01, a statement denouncing it as counterfeit was released on March 14, 1999. It was signed by Berliner and several other prominent pro-UFOlogists. By this time, a new batch of more than a dozen Majestic documents obtained from Tim Cooper had recently been made public by Robert Wood and his son Ryan at a UFO conference in Connecticut. They had strongly endorsed the authenticity of the documents, although Wood admitted that there were flaws in them. But he claimed that these anomalies "tend to indicate authenticity. . . . [Document] hoaxers generally try to make sure they are perfect."
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/majestic-12.html (http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/majestic-12.html)
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Seriously, VSP...Im just fucking with you here. This is an old hoax that has long since been proven forgeries.
Ask yourself this. After this hoax was unveiled, why haven't the tv stations run a retraction,and why is the website still up. Why is it still referred to as genuine in the good ole UFO community?
THere is a problem with the information you are being fed, and the problem is the UFO "researchers" don't give a rats ass about legitimacy or honesty. Anything at all, be it forgery, fakery, microsoft mouse or altered photography is accepted as genuine. Even after proven false the proclamations continue.
Why? What is going on here? Something certainly is and I suggest to you that the secret to the UFO "problem" lies within this phenomena, not in any actual alien spacecraft or conspiracy to hide actual information.
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It doesn't matter what I post you'll never believe it. Even if I see one tonight and get abducted you won't believe it either. What would you do if you saw one and no one believed you? Kind of like the Straight stuff. What if you were abducted and all your friends referred to you as the UFO nuts? You can believe what you want it's a free world. I believe there is something going on. I have not seen anything yet but I think there is something to it. Using your own theory that usually the simple answer is correct. With all the testimony out there I find it hard to believe it's all lies, fabrication, or dementia. But I have to agree with you I don't have any physical proof. The Majestic documents are some proof, and makes me wonder. I bet you?ll say they are all bull shit too. I know you to well. We are only laymen and will never have access to the truth; you know that. If a craft landed in your back yard the government would show up and take it away. You would not have any proof that it happened.
At what point do you wonder? I for one hope it's true.
You continually call anyone that has had something happen to them UFO nuts or on the fringe. What?s with that? Are you saying that every person that has had something happen is lying? Delusional? Ill informed? Nuts? You still haven?t dispelled all the testimony from the Disclosure project. These are real people in high-level jobs in our government. Why would someone want to make statements like that and possibly ruin their carriers? It?s a simple answer just like you say. They are firmly in the corner of UFO existence and are appalled at the cover up. In their view they are doing this as a public service, to you and me. The government has the solutions for renewable energy. We don?t need OIL. So if the truth came out we wouldn?t be fighting the war for control of OIL right now.
Take care,
Beam me up Scotty!
vsp
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Anybody got any - Personal accounts, that is?
I'll tell you my UFO story. . . Back in the Seventies,
A buddy and I were sitting in his van in front of my house late one night talking.
The was a Very Bright light in the field behind the neighbor's house. I thought it was a street light and was puzzled as to why anyone would put a street light there. There wasn't anything back there - just empty fields for a long long way.
As we sat debating why anyone would put a street light up back there, it zoomed off.
It had been perfectly still - and very bright - then it went ZOOM! and was gone. I mean Fast.
Very fast. Not like an airplane - not like anything I have ever seen before or since.
Never made a sound.
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VSP, my friend, I would believe anything of substance you post.
This stuff is just not credible...none of it. It is fun, it is interesting, it is conspiratorial, among other things, but none of it hasn't been dealt with outside the fringe UFO community.
If you are offended by me saying "UFO nuts", I apologize. My intention isn't to offend. I am not refering to individual believers but the established UFO community...MUFON, disclosure project,Roswell conspiracy people, Majestic papers, the people that propogate this stuff. They clearly aren't on a quest for the truth as evidenced by their acceptance of frauds, magical thinking.
For example, the son of the Majestic papers guy claims legitimacy for the second wave of majestic papers because a remote viewer (physic) has deemed them real. This is evidenced on the site you linked me too. Real evidence? Hardly.
Here is an investigative journalists take, part one , you gotta search for part two and three.
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm (http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm)
professionals review the evidence outside of the "UFO movement"
http://www.etcontact.net/documents/doc842.htm (http://www.etcontact.net/documents/doc842.htm)
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm (http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm)
The evidence goes on and on for this to be a complete fabrication with the perpetrators writing books and being paid for speaking engagements.
My friend, you are free to believe what you want to believe. In my opinion, the UFO community is similar to a religion that seeks out information to prove what it already believes and rejects all information that discredits its belief system.
It is when you want other people to believe that you must provide credible evidence and the entire UFO community is lacking One legitimate piece of evidence, one confirmed alien, one even likely encounter. However, numerous forgeries and fabrications exist. Alien autopsy? Phoenix lights? I could go on and on...where does this leave their credibility? In addition, they claim everything from the spynx to Peruvian lines to Egyptian writings as evidence of Aiens, procliaming Evidence where no evidence exists. Lack of explanations does not point to aliens.
And if we are using the "straight stuff" as an analogy then fine because I have always stated that we must be impeccible, understated, carefull and well documented. If there were forgeries in our research I would be bouncing off the walls. And here we have testimony backed up with court records, settlements, admission, film evidence of Motivating, admissions of restraints. I have yet to see a forged film of a kid being hit. You saw my reaction to the "child molester" website and erroneous information floating around.
When people claim things that aren't true I dissasociate myself from them. This is the way I am.
I don't fault you for believing in Alien spacecraft. I think they probably exist as well just like we have american spacecraft. I just see ZERO evidence that they have been to earth. I hope they show up one day, that would be cool in the extreme. Why would they show up and then sneak around? How silly is that? And, I do think your outright rejection of all evidence pointing to forgeries and rational explanations is interesting but that is your choice.
(like the egyptian Glyph it can be read by archeologists and not egytians...one interpretation comes out of London..Is England in on this as well?)
Getting back to the subject at hand, you appeal to authority once again with the "disclosure project." I have read their website, watched the press release and frankly find more of the same...no evidence. They claim the energy thingy as well.. What specific evidence they have presented do you feel is credible? Which government officials are you refering to that are risking their jobs by providing information, and what does that information consist of? Lets review that.....
Also, VSP wrote:
"the government has the solutions for renewable energy"
There is a whopper if true. Provide some evidence for that claim and lets review it as well.
And don't take me seriously if it offends you! If it doesn't, carefully consider everything I say.
:grin:
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I have at least two.
First, I was about 7 and on my neighbors swingset. Something went over real low and fast. I swore it was a flying saucer to my mom. To this day I am unsure of what it was.
Various lights in the sky that I haven't a clue as to what they were while growing up.
This one was last week. I was on a bus in Panama with my girlfriend coming from the pacific coast towards Panama City. We were passing a narrow canyon and a plane was flying thru it away from us. A small round object flew right near it, crossing just behind or under it at high speed (it seemed) and continued downward and across the canyonkind of towards us but right to left in my viewing field. I watched in amazement until the object started flapping its wings!
You see, due to the angle, the fact that the bird was diving and large, and the perspective of it against the canyon and airplane, I was fooled for about 5 to 10 seconds by an illusion of sorts.
Pretty cool I thought...
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The First Roswell: Evidence For A Crash Retrieval In Cape Girardeau Missouri In 1941, by Ryan S. Wood (1.3 MB)
Paper presented at the International MUFON Symposium in Irvine, CA, July 2001.
This paper reviews the primary and secondary sources and evidence for the reality of an extraterrestrial spacecraft crash-retrieval in Cape Girardeau, Missouri in the spring of 1941. It draws upon the new Majestic and Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit intelligence documents that support the hypothesis of an extraterestrial crash and reviews the authenticity results for each. Furthermore, suggestive and supporting authentic documents interconnect to these new ones and ultimately advance the reasonable conclusion that according to both the paper trail and witnesses this is the ?First Roswell.? Close attention is paid to the primary witness, Reverend Huffman, and related testimony of granddaughter Charlette Mann. Historical research in the area has identified other witnesses and likely participants in the event. Specifics, of police, fire, photographers, coroners and military commanders that likely should have been at the scene are analyzed and tested for accuracy. Other sources are analyzed for validity and contrasted with known historical facts, pinning down the date and location of the event.
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Here's the link,
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/rswood_mufon2001.pdf (http://209.132.68.98/pdf/rswood_mufon2001.pdf)
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On 2004-06-26 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The First Roswell: Evidence For A Crash Retrieval In Cape Girardeau Missouri In 1941, by Ryan S. Wood (1.3 MB)
Paper presented at the International MUFON Symposium in Irvine, CA, July 2001.
This paper reviews the primary and secondary sources and evidence for the reality of an extraterrestrial spacecraft crash-retrieval in Cape Girardeau, Missouri in the spring of 1941. It draws upon the new Majestic and Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit intelligence documents that support the hypothesis of an extraterestrial crash and reviews the authenticity results for each. Furthermore, suggestive and supporting authentic documents interconnect to these new ones and ultimately advance the reasonable conclusion that according to both the paper trail and witnesses this is the ?First Roswell.? Close attention is paid to the primary witness, Reverend Huffman, and related testimony of granddaughter Charlette Mann. Historical research in the area has identified other witnesses and likely participants in the event. Specifics, of police, fire, photographers, coroners and military commanders that likely should have been at the scene are analyzed and tested for accuracy. Other sources are analyzed for validity and contrasted with known historical facts, pinning down the date and location of the event.
"
But if these documents, the majestic documents, are proven forgeries, and they are, why are you quoting from them. The burden exists to prove their legitimacy and they are PROVEN FRAUDS.
Get it?
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Also, don't you find it in the least bit suspect that all the people alleged to have written the documents and/or be participants are dead?
That the hinge document supposedly written by the president was actually a cut and paste copy his signature? That the date on the documents was a hybrid style that was used on the personal documents of one of the perpetrators?
zzzzz.....this stuff is just oozing in fraudulent ink.
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and also, mufon's history in accepting frauds as legitimate in legendary.
Microsoft mouse as a "real alien spacecraft"
Alien autopsy initially certified as legitimate
Phoenix lights initially accepted, later proven to be miliary flares under parachute...
and on and on and on...
MUFON has zero credibility. Your link is to MUFON.
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I don't believe your source and the names you listed were not from the site. You can't pick and choose scientist to fit your view.
Bottom line I don't know but it's interesting to read.
Let's kick it up a notch!
Here is something out there! I don't know what to think about this!
Nazis and the Hollow Earth
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa011199.htm (http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa011199.htm)
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Don't you mean, "kick it down a few notches".
Jeeus...we could do this forever. Unfortunately I am going out of town today, so I must concede this point.
Don't dig to deep in your backyard or the Nazis may spring up!!!!!
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"A second theory, call the "inverted Earth" theory, claims that we - our civilization - actually exists on the inside of the globe. We are held fast to the ground not by gravity, but by centrifugal force as the Earth rotates. The stars, so goes the theory, are twinkling chunks of ice suspended high in the air, and the illusion of day and night is caused by a rotating central sun that is half brilliant, half dark. Cyrus Teed, an alchemist from Utica, N.Y., was one of the first people to popularize this idea."
You gotta love it.
:grin:
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-27 04:38 ]
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The Claim
"
The belief in a hollow Earth had some adherents in Nazi Germany. There is even a legend which says that Hitler and his chief advisers escaped the last days of the Third Reich by going through the opening at the South Pole."
and..The proof.
"Dianne Robbins has seen the Light, and claims she receives telepathic messages from Adama, who lives in the city of Telos, beneath Mt. Shasta in California. These messages are channeled by her, and provide all kinds of wonderful information about peace and prosperity in the Inner Earth. Her book is called Telos: The Call Goes Out from the Hollow Earth and the Underground Cities."
Man, you can't make this stuff up....mainly because other wackos have beat you too it.
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And suprise of surprises. In a "hollow earth" website, we find....(drumroll)..a picture of the forged egyptian glyph depicting supposed helicopters.
http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/ ... erciv.html (http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.crystalinks.com/underciv.html)
Okay, supernatural buffs...which is the glyph..proof of cities within the globe under the ground, ancient astronauts, or time travlers. I have seen it declared all three (and of course, had the glyph translated on a archeological site).
:em:
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-27 04:55 ][ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-06-27 04:56 ]
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I'm a different anon user (first post today).
First I would like to thank Greg for playing the devil's advocate (not an easy task being the only one), even though the most recent post was two months ago and I probably wont get a replay.
Second, about this inverted earth theory. Not possible. If it was true, then anyone who visits the north or south poles would float into the center of the globe. Being as how gravity is centripital force, the poles are the axis of the circle, therefore there is no centripital force there.
Next, I would like to offer my view on the origional topic, which this forum seems to have drifted from, because the begining posts were what google showed me when I was searching for alien debates. Although I'm quite gullible, I consider myself to be a logical believer. I don't believe all that I've seen, but I'm working hard to not believe some of the stuff that seems somewhat 'credible'. With that out of the way, the point I would like to make assumes that the general theory of alien visitations is true. If I were to assume that it was false, then there would be nothing left of any importance to say.
The thing that no one seems to have touched on is why. Why would aliens have traveled to our inhabited planet when there are many many many uninhabited planets, and possibly many other inhabited planets. From what we can tell, there is a great distance between the nearest possible home world and ours. Why waste so much time and effort? With the small possibility of an alleged alien moon base, why would they inhabit our moon? This is my theory.
Being a moron in biology, I'm sure many experts will have something to complain about with this post. I believe that these aliens (remember I'm assuming they exist) are incapable of evolving. From there I see three possibilities.
1: They were an evolving species which somehow stopped evolving. This could be because of an equivilant of nuclear waste.
2: Like our creationist theory, some god-like being, or perhaps the god that many humans believe in, created them and they are incapable of evolving in the first place.
3: There was an evolving normal species which built the ET's we have come to know of. Just as many people are afraid that we will build some sort of AI that will take over humanity, perhaps this aliens built an AI (be it biological or technological) which took over. Perhaps this origional creator species was dying and they wished to continue their existance, but their technology had not yet progressed to the point that they could include the evolving trait into their creation.
Being a non-evolving species, what would be something that occurs to you? After perhaps millenia of 0 progress, you might realize that perhaps you wish to better yourself and your species. How would you go about solving this problem? The best way is to find a species that evolves and study them. Going with the nuclear waste idea, there may not have been anything left on the home world. Now, you've got to find a species that currently has the ability to evolve and find a way to ingrave that into yourself.
I'm sure you are all staring at this post thinking that it is a total guess and I have no proof to back it up. In part you are true. I can hear Greg's groan all the way through my network connection. Though it is quite a leap of inductive reasoning, here is my thought process.
Allegedly, there are many samples of ancient pictures which show what we now call flying saucers. Also, in media, there are many examples of flying saucers. Many people claim to have seen flying saucers. As Greg pointed out, many people could also be criminally insane. However, I have a little too much respect for humankind to believe that every person who has taken photos are just trying for their 15 minutes of fame and that every person who has seen one is a loon.
How then, would I explain that there is such a large amount of "proof" in both the ancient past and the present. Notice, that the way that these ancient pictures and current pictures have similar looking crafts, similar looking non-human humanoids. Even cave paintings dating 10,000 years have been seend with UFO like drawings. After 10,000 years, the human race has evolved from hairy monkey looking people to computer geeks who argue the existance of UFOs. Our technology has evolved with us from the burning stick to the proton accelorator. Why is the ET's technology identical over the 10,000 year gap? Have they lost the will to improve or lost the ability? Even if they have reached the pinnicle of science as their brains can percieve it, their sence of style would change somewhat. The flying saucers should look somewhat different over such a long period of time.
One of the key traits in an evolving species is the need to change. Those which don't change, die out. This has been true in many cases on earth. Species change to adapt to their environment and live. Species don't change and become extinct.
This is a working theory I came up with a few months ago, and I appriciate any constructive criticism.
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How `bout just neighborly curiosity? If people were able to travel to other planets and check out the life there, a touris industry would grow around it.
How `bout security? People are some dangerous animals. Some of us even think we're destroying our planet. Neighbors like that bear watching, especially if they're tinkering w/ ways to leave the planet!
But, like you, I don't know if there's intelligent life out there. I'm a devout agnostic.The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
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Just came accross this and thought ya'll might enjoy it.
THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT
A ONE ACT PLAY by Terry Bisson
The set is a deep space galactic panorama projected on a screen--the Universe. Two lights moving like fireflies among the stars on the screen represent the the TWO VOICES.
(As a radio play, there are just the TWO VOICES, with a slight echo added for strangeness.)
Voice One: "They're made out of meat."
Voice Two: "Meat?"
Voice One: "Meat. They're made out of meat."
Voice Two: "Meat?"
Voice One: "There's no doubt about it. We took several aboard our recon vessels from different parts of the planet and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."
Voice Two: "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?"
Voice One: "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."
Voice Two: "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."
Voice One: "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."
Voice Two: "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."
Voice One: "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat."
Voice Two: "Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."
Voice One: "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?"
Voice Two: "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."
Voice One: "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them all the way through."
Voice Two: "No brain?"
Voice One: "Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you."
Voice Two: "So ... what does the thinking?"
Voice One: "You're not getting it, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat."
Voice Two: "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"
Voice One: "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?"
Voice Two: "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."
Voice One: "Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."
Voice Two: "Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?"
Voice One: "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, communicate, swap ideas and information. The usual."
Voice Two: "We're supposed to talk to meat."
Voice One: "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing."
Voice Two: "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"
Voice One: "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."
Voice Two: "I thought you just told me they used radio."
Voice One: "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."
Voice Two: "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"
Voice One: "Officially or unofficially?"
Voice Two: "Both."
Voice One: "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, we advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."
Voice Two: "I was hoping you would say that."
Voice One: "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"
Voice Two: "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"
Voice One: "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they are limited to the speed of light, which makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."
Voice Two: "So we just pretend there's no one home in the Universe."
Voice One: "That's it."
Voice Two: "Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? But the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You're sure they won't remember?"
Voice One: "They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."
Voice Two: "A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."
Voice One: "And we marked the entire sector unoccupied."
Voice Two: "Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"
Voice One: "Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."
Voice Two: "They always come around."
Voice One: "And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone ..."
Back to TERRY BISSON STORY SHOWCASE Main Page
[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
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Space signal studied for alien contact
LONDON, England (Reuters) -- An unexplained radio signal from deep space could -- just might be -- contact from an alien civilization, New Scientist magazine reported on Thursday.
The signal, coming from a point between the Pisces and Aries constellations, has been picked up three times by a telescope in Puerto Rico.
There are other explanations besides extraterrestrial contact that may explain the signal. New Scientist said the signal could be generated by a previously unknown astronomical phenomenon or even be a by-product from the telescope itself.
But the mystery beam has excited astronomers across the world.
"If they can see it four, five or six times it really begins to get exciting," Jocelyn Bell Burnell of the University of Bath in western England told the magazine.
It was broadcast on the main frequency at which the universe's most common element, hydrogen, absorbs and emits energy, and which astronomers say is the most likely means by which aliens would advertise their presence.
The potentially extraterrestrial signals were picked up through the SETI+home project, which uses programs running as screensavers on millions of personal computers worldwide to sift through the huge amount of data picked up by the telescope.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/0 ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/09/02/space.signals.reut/index.html)
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--
Anonymous . . . for obvious reasons
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...this place, if I could describe this place, portray it, I've tried, I feel no place, no place around me, there's no end to me, I don't know what it is, it isn't flesh, it doesn't end, it's like air.
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Listen Druggies,
The reason the aliens are coming here is because they are bringing a saucerful of alien druggie kids and dropping them off at the best damn drug treatment center in the universe--That's right Druggie, the new, improved, all-ages (and soon all-species!) Straight, Inc. v2.0! Whether it's huffing carbona or shooting smack, snorting Centaurian rocket fuel or smoking Martian sensimilla, the disease of teenage drug use is not limited to our world. The aliens have wisely decided to bring their druggie alien kids to have them go through their phases at the Area 51 branch of Straight, Inc. v2.0. If you little druggie cretins don't shape up and get this Group in line, I'm sending the worst of you off to the new Proxima Centauri branch when it opens. Try going on a permission to the beach while you're wearing a spacesuit and on a world with six times Earth's gravity. You damned druggie ingrates don't know how good you've got it. Love ya! Have a seat......
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I'm the guy from the top of page 14.
A little skewed at times, but interesting points.
Just to reiterate, the point I feel best lends to my theory over the idea, over say a zoo, is that the alien ships never seem to change design as best as we can tell. Looking at the cave paintings (once again, assuming they are real) and looking at what we believe alien craft looks like now, they are similar. Normal evolving species would have the motivation to change for the better. We do it all the time. Many other earth species do it too in smaller increments. By this I mean that they learn to find food or keep warm etc. Any species which can develop to what it has become must surley know that it would be for the best to continue developing.
Keep the responses coming. I was afraid people stopped reading this forum when the last post was almost a month before mine (i think).
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Internet, Internet... Where is the OuterNet...?
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What cave paintings? Sheit..here we go again....There are no archologists that I know of that maintain ANY CAVE PAINTING exists of a space ship. Link to that evidence here please.
And Space ships have been described as saucers, cigars, small huge..rotating staionary...Your point that the shape stays constant is not true. And as far as aliens..prior to Steven Spielberg they used to look like robots...remember? The current little green man came into popularity after "close encounters".
And you ask why? That is an illogical question. It is like asking "why does the giant holding up the earth care so much? It just isn't relevent until you establish if they have been here.
So the question is "If", not "why". To come up with a yes to an "if" (or a hypothesis), you must study evidence. Once evidence has been established (and it hasn't been), then you can ask "why" in a manner that is other than speculative.
Get it?
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-09-07 21:06 ]
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"Allegedly, there are many samples of ancient pictures which show what we now call flying saucers"
Yes, allegedly. However, when studied seriously, all such evidence falls apart like a house of cards. Look thru the 'evidence' in this thread for examples.
IT isn't there my friend, it just isn't there.
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On 2004-09-02 15:34:00, Dallas Straight 86-88 wrote:
"Space signal studied for alien contact
Wouldn't it be cool if it was real? However exciting this would be, the jury is way out on this one yet. time to wait and see where SCIENCE leads this development.
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If you'll recall, I specifically said that I was starting under the assumption that aliens have visited earth. Any good mathimatician or scientist knows that you need initial assumptions in order to formulate a decent hypothesis. As I said, if I assume that there is a likelyhood that aliens have not visited earth, then there is no point in me talking. You've already said everything there is to say about that, and you said it better than I could have.
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Thank you for the compliment. My only point was that if you jump the topic to why they are here, it just becomes a big speculative free for all. We first need to establish if they have been here. Unfortunately, the evidence is lacking.
Many people like to point to the numbers of people who claim to have seen or been abducted as evidence. It is not anything but anecedotal.
Lets take religion as an example. There are millions that claim the only way to god is thru Jesus christ and that the god of christianity is the only god. There are millions that claim the way is thru Islam, still more that believe in alternative religions. They all can't be right, but they can all be wrong, proving that millions upon millions of people can believe something, can claim to have experienced, have seen, have been cured by, an unknown unprovable phenomena, and be wrong.
Another example...during the years when witches were persecuted and tortured, eyewitness accounts of witches flying thru the air on brooms were common. We now tend to dismiss these sitings as mass hysteria..I think it is safe to say these people were experiencing something other than supernatural sitings.
That is the real question, the real interesting thing to study in my opinion, the physcology behind mass hysteria and supernatural beliefs.
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I think it is safe to say these people were experiencing something other than supernatural sitings.
That is the real question, the real interesting thing to study in my opinion, the physcology behind mass hysteria and supernatural beliefs.
"
Basically, it was a manifestation of their subconscious desire to get Straight, coupled with the conflict they feel from being dry druggie pieces of shit. If they had a Program, none of these disturbing sightings would have occured. I know; after all, I am a doctor.
We might do a "UFO rap" one day at the new, improved, all-ages Straight, Inc. v2.0. Until then, quit avoiding yourselves with all this nonsense, Druggies. Love ya! Have a seat....
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On 2004-09-07 21:05:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2004-09-02 15:34:00, Dallas Straight 86-88 wrote:
"Space signal studied for alien contact
Wouldn't it be cool if it was real? However exciting this would be, the jury is way out on this one yet. time to wait and see where SCIENCE leads this development.
"
Yeah, but you know what, I heard something about that signal being sent there by us. :grin:This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
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On 2004-09-08 08:37:00, GregFL wrote:
"
Lets take religion as an example. There are millions that claim the only way to god is thru Jesus christ and that the god of christianity is the only god. There are millions that claim the way is thru Islam, still more that believe in alternative religions. They all can't be right, but they can all be wrong, proving that millions upon millions of people can believe something, can claim to have experienced, have seen, have been cured by, an unknown unprovable phenomena, and be wrong.
"
I know it has nothing to do with the aliens topic, but I can't agree with you more about that comment. I hate it when people are so sure that their religion is definately right and assume that the 95% of the rest of the world is definately wrong.
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It looks like Greg is still correct.
http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html (http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html)
Damn..............
Cheers all,
VSP
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thanks vsp.
However, I can't be "correct" because I only take the position that evidence is lacking and that it is unlikey aliens have visited the planet.
I am just as excited as the next guy over the possiblity of us making contact. That is why When the link was posted that we may have radio contact, I said it would be great but that the jury it out.
I am extremely cautious about jumping on any bankwagon. When evidence is scientifically confirmed, I will be embracing (or running from) the aliens.
:grin:
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But then again it might be real........
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341)
I like you hope it is, but have to agree the jury is still out.
On a side note "Batten down the hatches dude", Ivan the Hurricane is in almost in your backyard!
Stay safe......
Cheers,
VSP
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"There are other oddities. For instance, the signal?s frequency is drifting by between eight to 37 hertz per second."
This was taken from VSP's more recent link. Hertz is just 1/seconds. Hertz per second is hertz squared. I'm just a freshman in college so if I can peice that together in two seconds, I don't think that the guy who this reporter talked to actually knew what he was talking about.
Dorkasaur2
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http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-19c-04.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/12-19c-04.asp)
Just came across this................
What do you think?
VSP :em:
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=41782 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41782)
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I think those slides are such obvious BAD fakes adn that article is so poorly written, that the "India Daily" must be their equivalent of our weekly world news....
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second article...worse than the first. Staff photos of the "phoenix lights", proven military flares...Claims of Australians seeing lights in the sky backed up by a staff photo of lights in England...
and on and on...totaly crappy "journalism".
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Just in,
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-06a-05.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-06a-05.asp)
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"It is well accepted between the UFO and extra-terrestrial experts that all the five nuclear powers are in contact with the beings from other stars for quite some time."
:wstupid:
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http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/aliens/61245 (http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/aliens/61245)
HOW TO TELL IF YOUR PROSTITUTE IS AN EXTRATERRESTRIAL
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"10. Squeamish about spanking -- Terrestrial prostitutes are willing to perform virtually every sexual act if the money is right. But ETs don't like having their butts touched."
hehe..perfect.
I have a confession to make...I buy the weekly world news off the newstand. It is the funniest thing I have ever read...kind of an adult mad magazine.
"4. Odd, hard-to-place accent. "They have trouble pronouncing the letter 'R,' " Manling reveals."
Hey, alien prostitutes are phillipino!!!
:grin:
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On 2005-01-06 12:25:00, GregFL wrote:
"
I have a confession to make...I buy the weekly world news off the newstand. It is the funniest thing I have ever read...kind of an adult mad magazine.
Oh, hell yeah. People have asked me if I "really believe that stuff" I try to keep as serious an expression as I can on my face and tell them that the Weekly World News is one of the most informed news oranizations on the planet.
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ROFL! I love you guys! I really do. I like to leave them in waiting rooms and then sit back and watch people find them.
`Nother take on the article, though. India is the world's largest Democracy. I knew that, but somehow I forgot it. Never really took the time to look into it and see how the people who say that are defining the term "democracy".
But then consider Baliwood, alien contact stories in the headlines that might have been written by Twain, fairly recently having thrown off the British Crown and begun negotiating successfully for itself in world markets ... doesn't it all remind you just a little of early America in some ways?
I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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A major world newspaper is telling this story. Don't you think the editor would be reluctant to make something up. This is not the National Enq. or the Star magazine. Laugh if you want but you have to admit it is interesting. Time will tell...............
Take Care all!
VSP
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Same paper,
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-03d-05.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-03d-05.asp)
go to the second page.
?
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VSP, the short answer...no.
Third world countries don't have the same editorial standards as american newspapers. Just look at the reckless statements and suppositions in that article with nothing to back them up should be enough.
Keep searching my friend.
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On 2005-01-07 07:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Same paper,
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-03d-05.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-03d-05.asp)
go to the second page.
yes, and there you will see more reckless yellow journalism...
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So I guess Russia and Iran are lying too?
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/12/30/ufo.shtml (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/12/30/ufo.shtml)
:question:
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Now an article showing the "mexican UFo's" on the front page (proven not spacecraft).
This is NOT THE GOVERMENTS speaking, it is a nutty reporter.
Com'n!
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"Russia and Iran have agreed to a joint program studying the UFO phenomenon after a series of sightings of unidentified flying objects."
Why would they do this if there is nothing to it? Don't you think it may be possible? Putin wouldn't sign on to anything that is clearly false.
Have to wait and see. I still agree with you Greg the jury is out but it is getting interesting with different governments making claims. Just recently it's been Mexico, India, Iran, and Russia.
That's a heck of a lot of press for something that's supposed to not exist.
Time will tell.........
Til then take care all,
VSP"
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Why is this region continuously reporting UFO sightings from various kinds of people?
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-09a-05.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-09a-05.asp)
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C'mon, this is War of the Worlds warmed over.
Here's the next headline out of MosNews
Russian Lawyer Privatizes Earth?s Clouds, Plans to Sue for Property Damage
Created: 24.12.2004 17:01 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:01 MSK
MosNews
A Russian lawyer made his contribution to helping the environment when he announced his privatization of all the clouds in the sky this week.
Vladimir Osipov, from the southern Russian town of Yeisk, showed up at his local notary office in the Krasnoyarsk region with a document affirming his ownership of all the clouds in the air over Earth, the Novye Izvestia daily reported.
?As derelict natural resources originating on Earth, not belonging at this point to any government or person, are my property,? he declared in the document, which he is sending out to the governments of 150 countries.
But while privatization is often associated in Russia with shady schemes to make off with as much as possible before the next strongman takes it away from you, Osipov has privatized the clouds with more noble intentions. He will use his property rights to sue anybody who pollutes the atmosphere.
As the rightful owner, Osipov intends to sue anyone for damaging property that belongs to him. He has no intention, however, to trade in precipitation.
I tell ya, Russia, India, Iran and Mexico all are acting very much like late 19th and early 20th century America.
Think about it. All of these places have something in common w/ America in those days. They had been mostly rural. Most people didn't have televisions or phones or other mass communication. They're all cultures that love their spoken arts; tragic drama, especially.
Now, rather suddenly, access to instant communication is spreading like wildfire. Who wants to lay odds on when and where the Petrified Man will turn up?
The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.
--Ferdinand Magellan, Portuguese and Spanish explorer
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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This is getting interesting........
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/ ... 0_ufo.html (http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/378/14810_ufo.html)
I disagree Ginger, somthing is up.
Time will tell, but until then, there sure is a bunch of government discusion of the topic! How can that be if it not supposed to be real?
Time will tell!
P>S> Wish the alians would do some experiments on old Mel and Newton
Take care all
VSP
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ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_b ... 50114.html (http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html)
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I am entirely more inclined to think something is up simply, because, well, something is up.. In no way do I give it any credit simply because its getting government play-time....and sketchy time at best.
Heaven forbid we should think anything valid simply because any government pays attention. Its like saying, BUT IT WAS ON THE NEWS, IT MUST BE THE TRUTH. Have a little more common sense there VSP.
I beleive in ET life, but I would do so with or without the coverage from any government or group or even UFO spoofs.
Is there something to it all? Yes, I think so. Is it because of media attention? No, thats ridiculous. There isnt an incident to date that I dont think could be explained away as natural or whatnot, but just because it has been explained dosent make the explainantions the truth. Unless you see it firsthand, all you got is faith. Jesus doesnt have to be in the news for people to beleive in him does he? Nerp.
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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I started this thread when the Mexican Military reported something very strange. I just find it very interesting and a welcomed diversion from everything else. I don't know for a certainty if it's real but finally after all these years they are talking about it in the mainstream media. And I do understand your point "How can you trust the main stream media" But at least it's becoming more of a dialogue. I just really hope that scientist will finally come forward with the facts.
Time will tell, so I'll just keep posting interesting stories, but only from news sources or any accredited science sites, as opposed to UFO sites.
Take care all
VSP
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And this just in from our British friends.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... ory=603470 (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=603470)
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Thank you! In my secret life I live for those articles.
keepmythings
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What the heck is going on here. This is actually a major news source for this part of the world?
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-24-05.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-24-05.asp)
VSP
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Listen Druggies,
The reason the aliens are coming here is because they are bringing a saucerful of alien druggie kids and dropping them off at the best damn drug treatment center in the universe--That's right Druggie, the new, improved, all-ages (and soon all-species!) Straight, Inc. v2.0! Whether it's huffing carbona or shooting smack, snorting Centaurian rocket fuel or smoking Martian sensimilla, the disease of teenage drug use is not limited to our world. The aliens have wisely decided to bring their druggie alien kids to have them go through their phases at the Area 51 branch of Straight, Inc. v2.0. If you little druggie cretins don't shape up and get this Group in line, I'm sending the worst of you off to the new Proxima Centauri branch when it opens. Try going on a permission to the beach while you're wearing a spacesuit and on a world with six times Earth's gravity. You damned druggie ingrates don't know how good you've got it. Love ya! Have a seat......
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What's going in England?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16353133 (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16353133)
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On 2005-01-14 16:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_b ... 50114.html (http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html)
"
Sounds plausable, eh? A physicist saying a high probability that UFOs are real, and physicists are impartial scientists, eh?
Em, not always, and this guy isn't a physicist as incorrectly claimed in the article. Here is a quote from a website claiming UFO references in a document which has been debunked as fraudulent, discovered by another UFOlogist, and said to be ancient.
"The TJ's UFO Connections
The Talmud of Jmmanuel (TJ) describes several occurrences involving what we today would place within the UFO category.
The "angel" who speaks to Joseph in a dream to tell him to go ahead and marry his betrothed, Mary, had been present in person, not in a dream. He was a "guardian angel," or ET, sent by Jmmanuel's ET father, Gabriel, to inform Joseph not to leave Mary"
and Here is page from the good scientists home page.
http://www.tjresearch.info/ufology.htm (http://www.tjresearch.info/ufology.htm)
My friend, stop taking these stupid articles at face value, and if you really are interested, start looking for some real evidence. A real photo,a piece of s spaceship, an alien transmission... something. So far there is nothing out there but fakes. Did you know that UFO siting spike WAY up when Mars is close to the earth?
When you find the evidence we will celebrate together.
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On 2005-02-03 17:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's going in England?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16353133 (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/16353133)"
Not much when you analize this article except suppositions and wishfull thinking.
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In fact, references the first article, all three of those doctors have been seriously discredited and are in the UFO "movement"
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Two annons Greg. This is VSP, I posted the England link not the other.
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On 2005-01-14 16:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_b ... 50114.html (http://www.space.com/searchforlife/et_betterodds_050114.html)
"
Yes, but here is the problem in a nutshell. You keep linking us to articles and suggesting since people are writing and talking about it, somehow it lends legitimacy to the UFO movement. It does not, it only further entrenches it into urban myth.
Take this article for example. A quick read would convince almost any reader that scientist/ physicists are debating the likelihood that UFO visitation has already occured. In fact the title is "scientists see high likelihood".
A "team of american scientists" were mentioned and the inspiration for this article and nothing was said about their credibility or their history in the UFO "movement". That burdens us, the rational reader, into doing a percursory investigation into who these people are. After all, we are looking for the truth, and not just articles that tend to support our notions...right?
First guy quoted is Bernard Haisch, truly a astronomer and scientist. A quick perusal of his website indicates he ONLY believes it possible and he has not evidence of visitation, nor does he ever proclaim it scientific fact.
"Could such things possibly be true? While I am intrigued by what I have learned over the years, I can't be absolutely certain....I propose that true skepticism is called for today: neither the gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of the scoffer masquerading as the skeptic."
http://www.ufoskeptic.org/ (http://www.ufoskeptic.org/)
Intersting take, and noted. All we want is some real evidence. He doesn't have it either.
Next we come to have mentioned
James Deardorff..a retired meteorologist...I won't go into this guy to much only to tell you that if you research him on the web, he claims to have proven all types of things such as Jesus lived in India and was Asian, reincarnation, and ancient visitations by UFOs. He is not a serious scientist.
Next we have Bruce Maccabee who has been a UFO researer since the 1960s with many many of his "findings" debunked thruout the years. Even as they are, he continues to present them as fact. Hardly an impartial scientist.
Next,Harold Puthoff, shamed from mainstream science many many years ago by publishing scientific papers professing to prove URi Geller to posess genuine magic powers. His controls and results were laughed out of mainstream science and upon proper controls set up on his experiments, failed miserably in peer review and repetition. Today he goes around on the UFO and astrophysical circuit proclaiming his belief in almost every metaphysical thing known to man. I actually read a book on him some 12 years ago.
here is a paper for you..... http://www.baskeptics.org/blandonmay98.htm (http://www.baskeptics.org/blandonmay98.htm)
Finally, my point here is this. Not that you should automatically discredit these guys. That is an individual choice. It is what it is and they are who they are...the point is so; this article was written in a way to insinuate mainstream scientists were saying UFOs have likely been here. That is a far cry from the truth. This is the problem with these articles, you get a writer with a common belief, that UFO's have been here, then his/her article is written in a biased format to make you believe subtle things that aren't true, like in this case mainstream scientists support the thesis of this article. You keep reading these articles with various claims and no proof or verification, and the totally of them all put together makes you believe "something is going on".
Meanwhile, back on the reality front, there is not one shred of evidence, not one screw, bolt,crashed alien craft, verified video, nothing. But there are countless events held up as proof that don't undergo scrunity.
It leaves us here....nowhere. The burden of proof has not only not been met, it hasn't been broached.
I would love to see some evidence of alien visitors. It just unfortunately doesn't exist or hasn't been made public.
When you find it, please share it with me..it wil be an exciting event. IN the meanwhile, these articles belong in a periodical fitting to their true investigatorial background...The weekly world news perhaps?
GregFL
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On 2005-01-26 18:28:00, Fr. Cassian wrote:
"Listen Druggies,
The reason the aliens are coming here is because they are bringing a saucerful of alien druggie kids and dropping them off at the best damn drug treatment center in the universe--That's right Druggie, the new, improved, all-ages (and soon all-species!) Straight, Inc. v2.0! Whether it's huffing carbona or shooting smack, snorting Centaurian rocket fuel or smoking Martian sensimilla, the disease of teenage drug use is not limited to our world. The aliens have wisely decided to bring their druggie alien kids to have them go through their phases at the Area 51 branch of Straight, Inc. v2.0. If you little druggie cretins don't shape up and get this Group in line, I'm sending the worst of you off to the new Proxima Centauri branch when it opens. Try going on a permission to the beach while you're wearing a spacesuit and on a world with six times Earth's gravity. You damned druggie ingrates don't know how good you've got it. Love ya! Have a seat......
"
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Check out this video. What do you think?
http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm (http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm)
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20051124/ ... eb314382_1 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20051124/bs_prweb/prweb314382_1)
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Yep, an BIGFOOT touched my junk.