Post by: Scott D on February 26, 2004, 11:29:00 PM
for right now is......WOW! I can't really put it into words, it was
the most intense, powerful and emotional movie that touched me deeply. I sat
in a theatre tonight that had about 250 people and when the movie
finally ended...everyone and I mean everyone just sat there quietly,
you could hear people sniffing but, it was just very somber. I
really recommend everyone to see it if you can regardless of your
beliefs.
Everyone at least, knows the story and the movie was made very well.
My hats off to ya Mel! I am sure that I am still processing the film
and I will be more clear on the impact on me that it had in the days
to come.
All The Best,
Scott
[ This Message was edited by: Scott D on 2004-02-26 20:41 ]
Post by: Therion on February 27, 2004, 03:49:00 AM
But seriously...
Wonder if her family can mabey get some cash for that?
Err is a heart attack kind of an "Act of god ..you aint getting jack shit" type of death?
Post by: Mamma Bird on February 27, 2004, 07:35:00 AM
I'm interested in this movie too and will see it next month when I'm in the states, but just because it's an interesting part of history. DOes it end at him dying or is the whole rise again thingy in there?
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2004, 04:16:00 PM
Post by: Therion on February 27, 2004, 04:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-27 13:16:00, Reagon Youth wrote:
"All the churches in Midland bought up all the tickets to this movie here. Parents have been pulling kids from school to see it. If we want to see it we'll have to fake church membership or wait it out."
Oh you are fucking Joking dude...plz say you are joking..ok I know you arent..
Thats fucking ridiculous..
Big deal a movie about jesus..OMFG this town is fucking stupid..
I hate everyone in this bible belt fucking shithole....Yeeehaw! George Dubya and Jesus!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2004, 05:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-27 00:49:00, Therion wrote:
"
Yah I heard some lady died while watching that movie...had heart attack during the cruci -fiction (get it??)
"
Post by: Cleopatra2U on February 27, 2004, 10:30:00 PM
Scott, I'd like to hear more from you when you get around to it...
~ Mindi
Post by: Scott D on February 28, 2004, 12:41:00 AM
Just give me a shout here or over in yahoo....I check both places pretty much everyday, and you can always email to if you wish. Just pay special attention to when the movie ends and how strange it is as everyone just kind of just sits there quiet in the theatre. I have replayed that movie in my head so many times since I have seen it.
Post by: Scott D on February 28, 2004, 12:44:00 AM
Post by: smack on February 28, 2004, 02:49:00 AM
Post by: Therion on February 28, 2004, 06:09:00 AM
Super GodzillaJesus and go around stomping my own churches down
Post by: Mamma Bird on February 28, 2004, 09:35:00 AM
Post by: Scott D on February 28, 2004, 09:59:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 10:11:00 AM
There may have been a guy named Jesus, but there are no historical references anywhere to validate that.
The chances are he was the son of god and died on the cross for your sins? Tell me, why did all those other people die on a cross then, it was not a unique punishment back then. Where is the evidence any of this stuff happened? Scientific evidence indicates the Flood never happened, the earth is older than the bible indicates, the genesis story is absolutely impossible (light before the stars, firmament between heaven and earth, etc, etc).
Cry at the movie all you want...better to cry for the sorry state of mankind still believing this ancient man myth bullshit.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 28, 2004, 10:16:00 AM
Quote
People in general are very cruel to one another whether it be in here, out there, back then or right now..
I tried to teach you kids to show respect for yourselves and others. It may have gotten ugly at times, agreed, but I believed that I was trying to carry out God's will. What Jesus would have wanted for you all. My programs have helped many families to become drug-free, and I can't for the life of me see why the hell you all have to keep bitching & moaning. Things can't always be 100% good...as they say, shit happens.
Quit trying to blame all of your problems on the program. You CHOSE not to work it, and fucked YOURSELF up. Your families would have welcomed you with open-arms had you CHOSEN to progress instead of copping-out, etc..
God ble$$ all of you mental-cases, I have to go and take Ruthie to buy some bigger dresses, as she's been getting more and more bloated every year now. I should have made her go to over-eaters anonymous a long fucking time ago. It'sd getting to the point to where I have to always be on the top when we...well enough about that. See you in the funnies,
Dr. Cassian Fucktard
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 28, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
Post by: Scott D on February 28, 2004, 10:59:00 AM
You believe what you want to believe....thats your choice as it is mine. I can tell you this though, when I try and live my life the way the "stories" from the bible where telling us and the way I understand them....my life is a whole lot better, I treat people better, I feel better, I tend to base my decisions on more of a good moral value rather then selfish values. I actually want to help people rather then just want to help myself
Just think for a second with my last statement. If everyone in this world made their decisions based on their very own good morals and not their own selfishness.....don't ya think things may be just a little different? But We always tend to think WE know what WE want and need and it turns into a "fuck everyone else" society just like back then as the stories describe. Bottom line is we are selfish people and we are scared.
If this is all just a myth, it's a damn good one that I am willing to look at and try and learn from.
"Don't only love the lovable, but love the unlovable as well"
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 12:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 07:59:00, Scott D wrote:
"Hey Man,
You believe what you want to believe....thats your choice as it is mine. I can tell you this though, when I try and live my life the way the "stories" from the bible where telling us and the way I understand them....my life is a whole lot better, I treat people better, I feel better, I tend to base my decisions on more of a good moral value rather then selfish values. ""
Really.. YOu try to live your life like the stories in the bible. Hmmm....
Next time you see a group of 42 children make fun of a guy and call someone baldie, have your god invoke two she bears to tear them from limb to limb.
Or better yet, have a group of angels gang rape a woman....
Or, how about beating and raping your slaves, as approved by "the bible".
Or, next time we invade a country, enslave and rape all the women as god instructs us to do in the bible.
Yep, keep living your life according to the "Good book"
Atta boy....
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 28, 2004, 12:59:00 PM
God is great, God is good.
Too bad your fuckin' head
is made of wood..
AMEN!
Now go chase yourself around the block a few times, or go jerk off. You've got too much pent-up energy. :rofl:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 28, 2004, 01:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 07:59:00, Scott D wrote:
"Hey Man,
You believe what you want to believe....thats your choice as it is mine. I can tell you this though, when I try and live my life the way the "stories" from the bible where telling us and the way I understand them....my life is a whole lot better, I treat people better, I feel better, I tend to base my decisions on more of a good moral value rather then selfish values. I actually want to help people rather then just want to help myself
Just think for a second with my last statement. If everyone in this world made their decisions based on their very own good morals and not their own selfishness.....don't ya think things may be just a little different? But We always tend to think WE know what WE want and need and it turns into a "fuck everyone else" society just like back then as the stories describe. Bottom line is we are selfish people and we are scared.
If this is all just a myth, it's a damn good one that I am willing to look at and try and learn from.
"Don't only love the lovable, but love the unlovable as well""
That's all fine and great. I believe too, that we can all get something out of the Bible, HOWEVER.......I do NOT view it as historically accurate at ALL. Neither do most true historians. Hell, the Gospels weren't even written until 30 years AFTER the death of Jesus (I do believe he was a real person who tried to make his world a better place, but the rest...???) It seems to me that most Christians really believe the Bible LITERALLY. These stories are written by men, not God, and man being what he is (succeptable sp? to his own prejudices and beliefs) the accounts cannot be viewed as "history". A lot of the miracle stories you read about in the Bible could be explained away with todays technology and understanding of our world. Remember, these people lived in different times....if they saw a comet in the sky, how were they to explain that???? Ahhh, yes......it's a SIGN FROM GOD. Makes sense back then, but not today. Same thing with the 'great flood' and the parting of the Red Sea. The great flood was, most likely, a flood of proportions that no one had ever seen before...they needed an explanation. There is a place in Australia (I'm fairly sure it's Australia) that at certain times of the year the tides go out so far that an entire bay is emptied. If people back then saw something like that, that they had never experienced before and it was an unusual occurence like an entire bay being emptied, how do they explain that to people??? GOD did it.
The Bible can be a great book to learn from IF we keep it in the context in which it was written. Just my humble opinion.
If All it takes is an infinite number of monkeys with type writers, then how come there's no Shakespeare coming out of AOL?
-- Anonymous
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 28, 2004, 01:34:00 PM
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 28, 2004, 01:35:00 PM
Quote
moral belief system
HAHAHAHA! Moral belief system! That's a good one.. :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 01:42:00 PM
Dr. Fucktard, go find some other toy to play with, this is a forum for ideas not idiots, and the adults here are trying to discuss an issue and you are only amusing yourself.
Post by: Scott D on February 28, 2004, 01:51:00 PM
The principles of the Bible are incredible and most people that don't believe or have other ideas about it still typically say that those guidelines in living life seem come together and make some sort of sense in finding self worth and peace.
I'm not here trying to convince anyone to believe in any certain religion. I am only speaking for what I have personally found in my own life and what makes me want to continue to live.
I can say this for a fact though about myself, every single time I walk away or close the door on God and take my life over like I know whats best for me...meaning, doing what ever I want , how I want and when I want and not even having the willingness to ask for some sort of help to him, my life rapidly turns to shit and gets very bad.
But, again this is just me. Don't let me fool you either. I do shit wrong and I have made and still make bad decisions based on my own selfishness at times, but I am trying hard to change that within myself and its a daily effort for me. There are many times when I question stuff from the bible and I question God directly, I get pissed off sometimes at him and I left him know it. Luckily for me, he can handle it and I don't have to understand everything. It's hard there is no question about it.
These are my beliefs and experiences and it is how I choose to try and live. I am no better then anyone else. I just want to do whats right for other people and myself and attempt to live a meaningful life of some sort. Am I wrong for this?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 28, 2004, 02:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 10:51:00, Scott D wrote:
I can say this for a fact though about myself, every single time I walk away or close the door on God and take my life over like I know whats best for me...meaning, doing what ever I want , how I want and when I want and not even having the willingness to ask for some sort of help to him, my life rapidly turns to shit and gets very bad.
But these can just as plausibly come from your own internal value system. I tell my kids that the most important lesson I can teach them is to listen to their GUT, their TRUE GUT...that's usually a fairly good moral compass if one is capable of taking a critical at one's self. Yes, if I just do what I WANT all the time, things go badly, if I do the things I know that I NEED to do...things usually work out. We all know the difference between right and wrong, for me it's a question of whether or not I'm going to listen to the little voice in my head, i.e. conscience, and following that.
Quote
These are my beliefs and experiences and it is how I choose to try and live. I am no better then anyone else. I just want to do whats right for other people and myself and attempt to live a meaningful life of some sort. Am I wrong for this?"
Of course you're not wrong for this....express your opinions, that's what I thought you were doing. If it helps you to live a better life to believe what you believe...fantastic...I mean that sincerely, but, IMO, the same thing can be accomplished through listening to my own innate sense of what is right and what is wrong. Just MY opinion.
you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 04:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 10:51:00, Scott D wrote:
The principles of the Bible are incredible and most people that don't believe.....
You mean like this principle found in genesis?
17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
or how about this "principle" to live by?
12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
These are but two of thousands of such ridiculous, cruel and plainly wrong quotes taken from the bible. Son of God? In Genesis, God has many children
6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
GIANTS????
6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
We haven't left Genesis yet and WOW, what a STORY is developing. I think the movie should have been about these stories!!!!
I think perhaps Scott, you heart is in the right place but you really haven't read the book you profess to live by and love so much. It is full of the worst of contradictions, cruelty, misogny, and other crimes against humanity. In addition, it in detail describes ritualist killing of animals to appease god.
In other words, it is bullshit.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 28, 2004, 05:03:00 PM
Quote
Dr. Fucktard, go find some other toy to play with, this is a forum for ideas not idiots, and the adults here are trying to discuss an issue and you are only amusing yourself.
A couple of reasons: This is not the sort of thing you want to say to a troll (which is what they're calling me) to get him/her to stop "trolling." In fact, the best thing you can say to a troll is...yep, you guessed it - NOTHING AT ALL. So, you are foolish to think that I would stop just because you try to tell me to. Quite the contrary, my stupid friend, quite the contrary. :lol:
Next: Apparently, I'm *not* the only one amused by my postings. I will not humor you by naming names. 'Ta...
Post by: taureana on February 28, 2004, 06:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 13:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-02-28 10:51:00, Scott D wrote:
The principles of the Bible are incredible and most people that don't believe.....
You mean like this principle found in genesis?
17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
or how about this "principle" to live by?
12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
These are but two of thousands of such ridiculous, cruel and plainly wrong quotes taken from the bible. Son of God? In Genesis, God has many children
6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
GIANTS????
6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
We haven't left Genesis yet and WOW, what a STORY is developing. I think the movie should have been about these stories!!!!
I think perhaps Scott, you heart is in the right place but you really haven't read the book you profess to live by and love so much. It is full of the worst of contradictions, cruelty, misogny, and other crimes against humanity. In addition, it in detail describes ritualist killing of animals to appease god.
In other words, it is bullshit.
"
FYI
1. God made circumcision mandatory for Abraham in 1919 B.C.E., a year before Isaac's birth. God said: "This is my covenant [promise] that you men will keep . . . Every male of yours must get circumcised." Not only the Israelites practiced circumcision, but also the Egyptians, Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites did too. Circumcision was made a mandatory requirement of the Mosaic Law. After God showed his acceptance of Gentiles into the Christiand congregation, and since many from the nations were responding to the preaching of the good news, a decision had to be made concerning circumcision. The apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth, "Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God's commandments does." Thus, it proved to be a pact at one time between God and his chosen people. After Jesus' sacrifice, it was no longer necessary, as the Israelites were no longer considered his chosen people. (Ge. 17:1,9-14,23-27; 1Co. 7:19)
2. The firstborn came into considerable prominence at the time that God delivered his people from slavery in Egypt. Among the Egyptians, the firstborn were dedicated as sacred to the sun-god Amon-Ra, the supposed preserver of all the firstborn. The tenth plague that God brought upon the Egyptians served to discredit this god and showed up his inability to protect the firstborn. By obeying God's instructions concerning the slaying of a lamb and the splashing of its blood on the doorposts and upper part of the doorway of their houses, the Israelites did not lose their firstborn in death, whereas all the firstborn of the Egyptians, of both man and beast, were slain.(Ex 12:21-23, 28, 29) Had the Egyptians NOT persecuted God's chosen people, the Israelites, and held them captive in slavery, this would not have happened. Or, had Pharoah allowed the Israelites their freedom to begin with, God would not have cast the plagues against them.
3. The expression "Son of God" primarily identifies Christ Jesus. Others referred to as "son(s) of God" include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he sinned, and humans with whom God has dealt on the basis of covenant relationship.
4. The SONS of God (angels) saw that the women were beautiful and came down to earth, taking on human forms, and had sexual relations with the women [Gen. 6:2]. This was forbidden and unnatural, (Based on the fact that heaven is the proper abode of spirit persons, and the angels there have positions of service under God.(Da 7:9,10) To leave this abode to dwell on earth and to forsake their assigned service to have fleshly relations would be rebellion against God's laws, and perversion.)so the acts resulted in a hybrid offspring from the angels and women. The hybrid offspring were giants, also referred to as the Nephilim [Gen 6:4].
Any other questions? Anyone?
Have a nice day. :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: taureana on February 28, 2004, 06:25:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 06:49:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2004, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 15:25:00, taureana wrote:
"It's all history. If you do your homework you will see that what you call fairy tales actually coincides with historical events."
not exactly, there are many, many conflicting stories WITHIN the Bible itself and it most definitely differs from proven, scientific history. Sure, there are some similarities, but certainly not enough to be able to take the Bible as literal, historical fact.
Post by: RTP2003 on February 28, 2004, 08:39:00 PM
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
Post by: teachback on February 28, 2004, 11:38:00 PM
While sunday school children are brainwashed into line
And presented with as truth what's really just a lie
Another child's self-belief is sacrificed
In the eyes of the lord, men are his servants
In the eyes of the lord, women are mens' servants
In the eyes of the lord, we're authority's servants
In the eyes of the lord, everyone's a servant
Sexual roles perversely glorified
Beyond virgin motherhood, all status is denied
But starvation and death's the real testament
To the truth of the god your bible represents
Post by: teachback on February 28, 2004, 11:39:00 PM
...As the bible
And is much less harmful
And is much more helpful
And is much more reverend
And is much more irreverent
Post by: Scott D on February 29, 2004, 12:45:00 AM
There may have been a guy named Jesus, but there are no historical references anywhere to validate that. ///// (Nope how many do you want)
The chances are he was the son of god and died on the cross for your sins? Tell me, why did all those other people ////(Who)//// die on a cross then, it was not a unique punishment back then. /////( That is true but why did water flow when the roman centurion speared his side???) Where is the evidence any of this stuff happened? ///// (dead Sea scrolls and so much more) Scientific evidence indicates the Flood never happened,////// (nope the have actually found part of the arc) the earth is older than the bible indicates, the genesis story is absolutely impossible (light before the stars, firmament between heaven and earth, etc, etc). ///// LONG LONG LONG debate but more and more studies have found that evolution does not add up and many scientific people who are the most difficult to discuss faith with are the ones that are coming forth with this material, one of the leaders is proving that evolution does not add up is an agnostic to boot!)
Cry at the movie all you want...better to cry for the sorry state of mankind still believing this ancient man myth bullshit. ///// (actually I will cry for you. show me or name me 3 agnostics whose life has been changed by their belief and I will show you thousands of people whose life has been changed by believing that Jesus Christ died for their sins) ( All other religions I can show you or take you to the place their profit is buried ,Jesus tomb is empty)
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 29, 2004, 12:52:00 AM
for a phenomena, the simplest explanation was usually the right one. That's a perfect explanation for why I'm so skeptical. From the time that we as humans began we've had a need to explain things that frighten us. It used to be that when we heard thunder, it was because the God of Thunder was angry with something we did. Then came along meteorology...now everyone knows that thunder is a release of electricity, Thor is not up there throwing down lightning bolts. There were sacrifices to Pele so that the volcano wouldn't erupt...now we have geology. People were afraid of the volcano so if they believed that Pele controlled the eruptions then if they could only make Pele happy everything would be OK. What if.....since we as humans are the only species aware of our own mortality...what if it's just too scary to think that that's it, we're on our own. There is no plan, there is no hereafter, when we're gone we're gone. It's much more comforting to believe there is someone up there looking out for us. It gives us a sense of at least SOME sort of control over our own destiny...if we're really really good then we get to go to heaven and everything will be OK.
My problem with the Bible itself is that it cannot be taken as historical fact and a lot of people really seem to believe that it is. The Bible was not written by "God"...it was written by men, it's THEIR INTERPRETATION of events expressed through THEIR PERSPECTIVE. The difference between historical fact the and Bible is like the difference between a documentary and a docu-drama...there are a lot of things that ARE true, but the authors have taken GREAT dramatic license...IMHO.
The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.
--Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 29, 2004, 01:31:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 21:45:00, Scott D wrote:
" (true but you have to understand the time back then and how things got passed down)
remember the game telephone when you were a kid?? Remember how the message ended up being completely different when it got to the end of the line?
Quote
( The bible is one of the only most historically correct writings of our time)(PROVEN)
Please show me evidence of this.
Quote
There may have been a guy named Jesus, but there are no historical references anywhere to validate that. ///// (Nope how many do you want)
as many as you'd like to provide. Historical facts though please, not Biblical references
Quote
Scientific evidence indicates the Flood never happened,////// (nope the have actually found part of the arc)
Biblical historians believe they found it... and actually there is a scientific explanation for the 'great flood'. A megatsunami that was formed by almost a third of an island sliding into the ocean after it was dislodged from a volcano of mammoth proportions.
Quote
( All other religions I can show you or take you to the place their profit is buried ,Jesus tomb is empty)"
Some scientists believe that his body was taken in order to save it from being destroyed by vandals or well meaning believers.
I'm not knocking anyone for their beliefs....I would LOVE to be able to take all this at face value...it sure would make things easier to believe that someone is up there on my side. Guess maybe I'm waiting to be convinced and I haven't been so far from any of the albeit limited research I have done.
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: animals all of us on February 29, 2004, 02:21:00 AM
As you are among survivors and friends I will not disrespect your beliefs and thoughts as to origins of this Jesus and our Universe.
Three very good examples of famous people who's lives were forever changed and magnified (among whose followers are in the millions as well), as a result of clerical errors, misgiving of a church believing in lies and selling deceit are as follows:
1. Disedirius Erasmus
2. Martin Luther
3. Karl Marx
4. Charles Darwin
And even though our German Martin Luther lead the Enlightenment Reformation toward Lutheranism, you cannot discount that one of his biggest complaints about the bigotry of the church was its selling of pardons which actually accidentally ignited that revolution.
In that vein, Erasmus spent his whole younger life and into adulthood around the monks and priests as a kind of secretary. He was later famed as an atheist for his writings about the hypcrocies and deceits of the church.
Karl Marx, atheist.
Charles Darwin. What.
Scott, consider that the first printing press was not created (FACT) until after 1500, after the start of what we call the Rennaissance. So many great artists were influenced, not by their love for god but by their love of the sciences and mathematics of the great and classic Greeks, and only then were many of these artists factually paid to paint murals and friezes like the Cistine Chapel or build new structures like many of the domes in Rome we see today.
Humanists were introduced in the Rennaissance period. These guys were hired by the local heads of state, not by the papacy, to begin to translate the old teachings of the Greeks, since those like the meDici family, government, believed that the old Greek writings held much good education and information.
And until the humanists came along, churches were built in the shape of a cross, not a circle where Greeks believed that circles more closely resembled purity for god - not the cross.
But to move this letter forward for you, the humanists got out of control. They started translating every god damn thing in sight. And then they got into the church. Holy shit the monks and popes were pissed when these many humanists discovered that so much of the written texts in the church were in error from monks being too illiterate to translate correctly.
Consider that King James, you probably have a king james bible like most do, at least somewhere nearby you might. King James altered the bible, and so did many other kings before and after him. Popes altered the bible to fit the needs of their holy wars.
In case you don't already get my point: Basically the people at large, up until around the 1600s generally believed that those With the Money, were needing of education and books. Hell, it wasn't really until the 1600s when schools for commoners was more widely accepted. Books were very sacred up until many years after the invention of that first press on steel wheels. Kings, popes, and those with the money and books and knowledge held the sway on everything and everyone below them.
So whether there were a Jesus or no, I have to go with the sciences and maths on this one. And your opinion is equally valid. I am not atheist or agnostic. I mean to say, however, that inasmuch as I believe in a Jesus and the holy trinity, I also believe that the ability to alter or retranslate stories in this realm are too possible to deny just the same as I am certain I get hungry throughout my day.
I will agree with you that this quote:
"Love not only the loveable, but the unlovable as well."
rings very true in my heart too. We are so fortunate that the humans who have come before us, Erasmus, Luther, Darwin, advocated equality for all with or without money.
Yours truly,
Survivor.
Post by: Cleopatra2U on February 29, 2004, 03:44:00 AM
...it is a visceral portrait of human suffering.
I felt for the character "Jesus" and his mother "Mary" throughout the movie.
I would recommend this movie to anyone, save the violently anti-Christian. It's a great piece of filmmaking... A great film adaptation of a classic novel that is based mostly on fiction.
~ M
Post by: Therion on February 29, 2004, 03:26:00 PM
Fuck them...
I kind of see Christian types and the people that ran programs like Straight and Synanon as the same group..
I hope Christianity is stomped out as a whole..
It is generally spread through our children.
I have personally helped a few college aged kid...and people into their 20s to see thru the Christian lie..
"But Therion I read your posts and see you are a miserable person...if you had Jesus youd be happy"
No I was a christian for 22 years and it did nothing for me but give me nightmares..
CHRSITIANITY IS MIND CONTROL...TURN AWAY!!
Post by: RTP2003 on February 29, 2004, 03:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 04:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 15:11:00, taureana wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-02-28 13:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-02-28 10:51:00, Scott D wrote:
The principles of the Bible are incredible and most people that don't believe.....
You mean like this principle found in genesis?
17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
or how about this "principle" to live by?
12:29
And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
These are but two of thousands of such ridiculous, cruel and plainly wrong quotes taken from the bible. Son of God? In Genesis, God has many children
6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
GIANTS????
6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
We haven't left Genesis yet and WOW, what a STORY is developing. I think the movie should have been about these stories!!!!
I think perhaps Scott, you heart is in the right place but you really haven't read the book you profess to live by and love so much. It is full of the worst of contradictions, cruelty, misogny, and other crimes against humanity. In addition, it in detail describes ritualist killing of animals to appease god.
In other words, it is bullshit.
"
FYI
1. God made circumcision mandatory for Abraham in 1919 B.C.E., a year before Isaac's birth. God said: "This is my covenant [promise] that you men will keep . . . Every male of yours must get circumcised." Not only the Israelites practiced circumcision, but also the Egyptians, Moabites, Ammonites and Edomites did too. Circumcision was made a mandatory requirement of the Mosaic Law. After God showed his acceptance of Gentiles into the Christiand congregation, and since many from the nations were responding to the preaching of the good news, a decision had to be made concerning circumcision. The apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Corinth, "Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God's commandments does." Thus, it proved to be a pact at one time between God and his chosen people. After Jesus' sacrifice, it was no longer necessary, as the Israelites were no longer considered his chosen people. (Ge. 17:1,9-14,23-27; 1Co. 7:19)
2. The firstborn came into considerable prominence at the time that God delivered his people from slavery in Egypt. Among the Egyptians, the firstborn were dedicated as sacred to the sun-god Amon-Ra, the supposed preserver of all the firstborn. The tenth plague that God brought upon the Egyptians served to discredit this god and showed up his inability to protect the firstborn. By obeying God's instructions concerning the slaying of a lamb and the splashing of its blood on the doorposts and upper part of the doorway of their houses, the Israelites did not lose their firstborn in death, whereas all the firstborn of the Egyptians, of both man and beast, were slain.(Ex 12:21-23, 28, 29) Had the Egyptians NOT persecuted God's chosen people, the Israelites, and held them captive in slavery, this would not have happened. Or, had Pharoah allowed the Israelites their freedom to begin with, God would not have cast the plagues against them.
3. The expression "Son of God" primarily identifies Christ Jesus. Others referred to as "son(s) of God" include intelligent spirit creatures produced by God, the man Adam before he sinned, and humans with whom God has dealt on the basis of covenant relationship.
4. The SONS of God (angels) saw that the women were beautiful and came down to earth, taking on human forms, and had sexual relations with the women [Gen. 6:2]. This was forbidden and unnatural, (Based on the fact that heaven is the proper abode of spirit persons, and the angels there have positions of service under God.(Da 7:9,10) To leave this abode to dwell on earth and to forsake their assigned service to have fleshly relations would be rebellion against God's laws, and perversion.)so the acts resulted in a hybrid offspring from the angels and women. The hybrid offspring were giants, also referred to as the Nephilim [Gen 6:4].
Any other questions? Anyone?
Have a nice day. :smile:"
Yeah, like I said...it is bullshit. No archaelogical evidence of Giants ever existed. Supernatural beings fucking women....etc, etc etc.
It is a fantasy story told by ancient middle easterners. If read critically, it is funny as hell. What is even funnier is quoting totally off the way obviously bullshit stories from the bible and watching christians scramble to justiy them.
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 15:25:00, taureana wrote:
"It's all history. If you do your homework you will see that what you call fairy tales actually coincides with historical events."
Okay, gather around and take a lesson in basic logic. Just because a story is written "coincides" with certain historical events does NOT validate the story.
It is like saying "escape from New York" is a true story because we can verify there is a place called New York.
None of the supernatural bullshit in the bible is historically relevant. None of it. I challenge you to produce one supernatural story that can be verified. I also challenge you to produce one document, written during the time of christs supposed life, that mentions him.
Now, run along and do your homework.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-02-29 13:34 ]
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 29, 2004, 04:19:00 PM
You're a coward in the eyes of God, and in mine as well..
I'll see your sorry anonymous ass in hell!
Sincerely,
Dr. Fucktard
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 21:45:00, Scott D wrote:
" What makes you think it even happened? There is NO historical contemporary (this is a contradiction) writing during the time of Christ that indicate he even existed (False) . Even biblical scholars acknowledge the bible was written after his alleged death.////// (true but you have to understand the time back then and how things got passed down) ( The bible is one of the only most historically correct writings of our time)(PROVEN)
There may have been a guy named Jesus, but there are no historical references anywhere to validate that. ///// (Nope how many do you want)
The chances are he was the son of god and died on the cross for your sins? Tell me, why did all those other people ////(Who)//// die on a cross then, it was not a unique punishment back then. /////( That is true but why did water flow when the roman centurion speared his side???) Where is the evidence any of this stuff happened? ///// (dead Sea scrolls and so much more) Scientific evidence indicates the Flood never happened,////// (nope the have actually found part of the arc) the earth is older than the bible indicates, the genesis story is absolutely impossible (light before the stars, firmament between heaven and earth, etc, etc). ///// LONG LONG LONG debate but more and more studies have found that evolution does not add up and many scientific people who are the most difficult to discuss faith with are the ones that are coming forth with this material, one of the leaders is proving that evolution does not add up is an agnostic to boot!)
Cry at the movie all you want...better to cry for the sorry state of mankind still believing this ancient man myth bullshit. ///// (actually I will cry for you. show me or name me 3 agnostics whose life has been changed by their belief and I will show you thousands of people whose life has been changed by believing that Jesus Christ died for their sins) ( All other religions I can show you or take you to the place their profit is buried ,Jesus tomb is empty)"
Scott, this has to be the most tortured paragraph I Have seen in a long time. It is devoid of any common logic, but I will bite.
You say there are writing during christs lifetime that indicate he was alive and are so confident you say "how many do you want? While this would in no way prove any supernatural properties of the man, i challenge you to produce only three, and please don't march out proven frauds, which do exist.
in addition, you site the bible as "historically accurate". My claim is that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of historical contradictions in the bible.
Care to continue the debate?
btw, historical contemporary writings is not a contradictory statement. It simply means written at the time of the proposed event in the past. It is a phrase with a very distinct meaning.
Further, "thousands of lives" being changed by believing in christ somehow validates the subject. "thousands of lives" are changed by all religions. Does this make them all correct? adopting any belief system is a life changing event, be it christianity or hare Krisna, Islam or scientology.
Empty tomb? what the hell you talking about? Elaborate please. An empty supposed grave site?
Yawn.....
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 04:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 21:52:00, cayohueso wrote:
"The premise of Occom's razor states that, assuming there were multiple explanations
for a phenomena, the simplest explanation was usually the right one. That's a perfect explanation for why I'm so skeptical. From the time that we as humans began we've had a need to explain things that frighten us. It used to be that when we heard thunder, it was because the God of Thunder was angry with something we did. Then came along meteorology...now everyone knows that thunder is a release of electricity, Thor is not up there throwing down lightning bolts. There were sacrifices to Pele so that the volcano wouldn't erupt...now we have geology. People were afraid of the volcano so if they believed that Pele controlled the eruptions then if they could only make Pele happy everything would be OK. What if.....since we as humans are the only species aware of our own mortality...what if it's just too scary to think that that's it, we're on our own. There is no plan, there is no hereafter, when we're gone we're gone. It's much more comforting to believe there is someone up there looking out for us. It gives us a sense of at least SOME sort of control over our own destiny...if we're really really good then we get to go to heaven and everything will be OK.
My problem with the Bible itself is that it cannot be taken as historical fact and a lot of people really seem to believe that it is. The Bible was not written by "God"...it was written by men, it's THEIR INTERPRETATION of events expressed through THEIR PERSPECTIVE. The difference between historical fact the and Bible is like the difference between a documentary and a docu-drama...there are a lot of things that ARE true, but the authors have taken GREAT dramatic license...IMHO.The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."
--Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921
Right on Cahuheso. You hit the nail on the head.
It is sad that people that profess to "Live by the bible" for the most part haven't even read it, and those that do spend most of their time justifying the writing or ignoring all science that disputes it.
The bible either is or isn't the word of God. If it is, your god is very confused, contradictory, evil, cruel, and not much fun at a party.
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 04:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 04:38:00 PM
Carl Sagan said something like... all the elements for life are floating out there in the universe but there had to be some large hand to bring it all together..
another interesting book, "The Bible is History"
also our Supreme Court has ruled twice i think that the Bible can and should be used as a history book.
Post by: Therion on February 29, 2004, 05:00:00 PM
Christians perpetuate bigotry..look at George Dubya..
Fucking with the constitution to make Gay marriages illegal..
Because its against the bible...
You sitting down???
FUCK THE BIBLE!!
Yep I said it...bible is not even entertaining but can be used for rolling paper in desperate times..
Not even good toilet paper as its a bit rough and my ass is sensitive..
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 05:07:00 PM
This is but one report of many that explains this crap. People are funny, they want to belive in the supernatural so they immediately accept anything that tends to justify supernatural events but ignore the evidence to the contrary when it always comes around...
http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html (http://www.csicop.org/si/9711/bible-code.html)
Post by: Dr. Therion Fucktard on February 29, 2004, 05:07:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 05:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-29 13:38:00, Anonymous
Carl Sagan said something like... all the elements for life are floating out there in the universe but there had to be some large hand to bring it all together..
really? Please produce the quote as I find no reference to it.
However, here is a good Carl Sagan quote:
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 09:07:00 PM
Anyone else?
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 09:27:00 PM
:cool:
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 29, 2004, 09:37:00 PM
Quote
don't believe a word of it--not one word!
Indeed sir.. :lol:
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 29, 2004, 09:46:00 PM
Quote
Their god is insane, retarded, or blind.
At least it's not DEAD, INSANE or IN JAIL.
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 10:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-02-29 18:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Believing in God, any "God" is an act of faith. Do you believe in "believing"? I do. Life is too precious to take for granted.
:cool: "
What does that mean? That would qualify as ducking under illogical statements. And your second part, "life is too short to be taken for granted" is a veiled criticism.
You just proved my statement above, that religious debaters always duck behind illogical statements and ad hominems.
Do I believe in believing? Dismissing the silliness of the statement, I will respond to what I think you are driving at.
Believing in God is an individual choice. I do not criticise you individually for doing so. What I criticise is your justifications and arguments you use to prop up your god and to justify the contradictions, illogic, cruely, silliness and unscientific content of the bible.
If you want to believe because you have "faith" by all means do so. You want to question me or debate your bible? Be prepared for a logical argument and don't duck behind cutsy sayings like "believing in believing" and expect that to hold any weight.
Paraphrsing your statement, Life is to precious to believe in things without questioning why you believe in my opinion. My belief system is open to constant change with new information. provide me with some and I will consider it deeply. Just don't hit me with this type of krill.
Go ahead, convince me. Startle me with your evidence of God and show me the bible is not cruel, violent and silly.
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 10:07:00 PM
forgot to log in.
Post by: Anonymous on February 29, 2004, 10:40:00 PM
Post by: Dr Fucktard on February 29, 2004, 10:52:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 29, 2004, 11:31:00 PM
Your faith is commendable, but your lack of reasoning is blatant. If you want to convince others of the existence of a supernatural god, you are going to have to come up with something based in actual logic not feel good statements or contradictory reasoning...
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2004, 12:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-02-29 20:31:00, GregFL wrote:
"glad you believe, but "evil" is no more evidence of god than biscuits are evidence of grits.
Your faith is commendable, but your lack of reasoning is blatant. If you want to convince others of the existence of a supernatural god, you are going to have to come up with something based in actual logic not feel good statements or contradictory reasoning...
"
Greg, all I know is the universe is unfolding as it should. That's faith, not faulty reasoning.
Post by: GregFL on March 01, 2004, 09:14:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-02-29 21:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-02-29 20:31:00, GregFL wrote:
"glad you believe, but "evil" is no more evidence of god than biscuits are evidence of grits.
Your faith is commendable, but your lack of reasoning is blatant. If you want to convince others of the existence of a supernatural god, you are going to have to come up with something based in actual logic not feel good statements or contradictory reasoning...
"
Greg, all I know is the universe is unfolding as it should. That's faith, not faulty reasoning."
Nothing but more blather. this is a fun topic, anyone out there capable of debating it on a more intellectual level than catch phrases with little or no meaning?
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 01, 2004, 09:17:00 AM
Quote
Greg, all I know is the universe is unfolding as it should.
That's right! As they told you in RSC, "Things are as they should be." :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2004, 10:59:00 AM
Religion sucks and is man's way and really all God wanted was a relationship with his creation and had to finally send his son to ransom his children back so that a relationship is possible..when Jesus gave up his spirit the curtain in the temple ripped from top to bottom..that curtain was the way to the holy of holies and Jewish priests were only allowed behind and then with much preparation and sometimes tied to a rope for retrival...but after it ripped it symbolized that we all can go behind the veil and have access to the throne..
I attend a non denominational church as I find there are so many denominations that are tied up in their statements and proclamations that I can't find in the Bible...He loves the church however and of course you see hypocrites there- they are fallen man...if you find a church w/o hypocrites I'd stay away...
Self control is the final gift of the spirit..love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control...must be something to the order- self control seems simple yet it is like the Apostle Paul said...I find myself doing what I don't want to do and not doing what I want to do...I can relate to that...
this behavior adjustment industry seems to be after self control and perfection yet that is not possible...yet through the Lord I've found self control- usually
Post by: RTP2003 on March 01, 2004, 11:25:00 AM
Post by: ehm on March 01, 2004, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-03-01 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
Religion sucks and is man's way and really all God wanted was a relationship with his creation
I attend a non denominational church as I find there are so many denominations that are tied up in their statements and proclamations that I can't find in the Bible...He loves the church however and of course you see hypocrites there- they are fallen man...if you find a church w/o hypocrites I'd stay away...
Self control is the final gift of the spirit..love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control...must be something to the order- self control seems simple yet it is like the Apostle Paul said...I find myself doing what I don't want to do and not doing what I want to do...I can relate to that...
this behavior adjustment industry seems to be after self control and perfection yet that is not possible...yet through the Lord I've found self control- usually "
Well said. ::heart::
The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
Post by: GregFL on March 01, 2004, 12:15:00 PM
And this supernatural omnipotent all powerfull creator could not manage this on his own without creating a children's morality lesson? come on, read what you write. This "god" has to ransome his son, has to rip curtains, thrones,etc.
People, listen to yourselves. This is mans creation, not a god. If a supernatural god wanted contact, he could talk to his subjects directly a la the fable of Zeus.
This stuff is so silly. Here is a frightening statistic for you.
Many americans are christians. Also, half of all adults believe in ghosts, a third believe in astrology, and a quarter believ e in reincarnation. Two thirds believe in heaven and hell.
(source-the scientific of claims of the paranormal)
All without any evidence except for swarmy sentences and feel good declarations. We really haven't come so far from the dark ages after all.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 01, 2004, 12:16:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 01, 2004, 03:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-01 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"would disagree with Sagan that clergy should be celibate...my kids saw a priest interviewed on TV and they called him father- they looked at me puzzled and said - "I thought God was the Father"..alas he is...point being no one can tow that line - human flesh anyway
Go back and look at WHY Sagan said they should be celibate.
Quote
- anyone that stands for Christ is a target for the enemy that's number 1 then add to that unreasonable expectations of celibacy...no wonder the problems with the priests and interesting that it's little boys that were abused?
Oh, please......the poor priests can't have sex and they feel persecuted....so they abuse little boys????? COME ON!!
Quote
Religion sucks and is man's way and really all God wanted was a relationship with his creation and had to finally send his son to ransom his children back so that a relationship is possible..when Jesus gave up his spirit the curtain in the temple ripped from top to bottom..that curtain was the way to the holy of holies and Jewish priests were only allowed behind and then with much preparation and sometimes tied to a rope for retrival...but after it ripped it symbolized that we all can go behind the veil and have access to the throne..
what???
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2004, 05:54:00 PM
and most Christians I meet are not filled with the Holy Spirit-baptised by Jesus with fire and power just as John the Baptist said..(for me the cool part) thus they aren't yet possessed by the Holy Spirit and do not yet wear his eyes and ears so they still are living (in control) ..not as the word says..it is not I that live but He that lives in me...when that happens you can discern much and also hurt as he hurts, hate what he hates, etc..also then have a real distaste for things that are not of God like..astrology, psychic, voodoo,witchcraft, or whatever people rely on besides the Living God.
brains and pride can be dangerous things in the Kingdom of God ...I see all these bumperstickers reading the Power of Pride with a American Flag...He HATES pride but loves those who trust in what you cannot see...if we could see into the spiritual we'd probably all go Duh!!!
after your experiences it must be hard to imagine that anyone could love YOU enough to send his son to die for you but that's exactly what happened...so like it or not - recieve or not - Somebody layed down their life for you!
Post by: RTP2003 on March 01, 2004, 05:56:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 01, 2004, 06:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-01 14:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
brains and pride can be dangerous things in the Kingdom of God ...
1. yeah, they seem to be dangerous qualities for cults members too...hmmmmmm...
2. guess that's why I'm not there....brain's too big. :roll:
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-03-01 15:06 ]
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 01, 2004, 06:07:00 PM
Looks like your dad is picking the quotes again. This one was perfect. :smile: Woops, not this one, the one above. woops again, this quote IS perfect!
When a well-packaged web of lies
has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem
utterly preposterous and its speaker
a raving lunatic.
--Dresden James
_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-03-01 15:08 ]
[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-03-01 15:09 ]
Post by: GregFL on March 01, 2004, 08:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-01 14:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
brains and pride can be dangerous things in the Kingdom of God ...I see all these bumperstickers reading the Power of Pride with a American Flag...He HATES pride but loves those who trust in what you cannot see...if we could see into the spiritual we'd probably all go Duh!!!
I'm going Duh right now! Another duck behind schmary talk. Someone show me the evidence please or admit your belief system is based in family tradition, fear and societal pressure. You have no evidence there is a god only double talk and silly notions!
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2004, 08:56:00 PM
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 01, 2004, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: Scott D on March 02, 2004, 12:25:00 AM
So I started to dig a little bit and I began talking to people that dedicated large portions of their life to theology and studies of history and the bible and began reading more myself, in a very short time period I began to get some answers to some of my very own questions about all this. See, you act as if you are the only ones that have doubts about God and Jesus or question things that are in the bible....you are not.
I believe in Jesus and I personally believe that he died on the cross for me and all of you...I also have questions and things that I don't understand though too, I am also just as human as you are. The things that I question or don't understand, I will research and try to find out more for myself but, I also have faith that I will learn these things in Gods time and not my own.
Now, I am not here to try and convince you or anyone of what they should believe in, I can only share my own personal experiences of God in my life and these facts my friend, are for real and did happen to me and I did not document them on paper. But that would not mean anything to you either as they didn't happen to you directly only me.
Let's face it, all of us in here have been let down by so many things in this life whether it be people, Straight, laws, parents, family, jobs, spouses, friends, doctors, schools etc. that we don't want to depend on anyone and we don't want to be hurt, we don't wanna have faith in anything let alone something we can only read about. So we want facts unless it can't remotely affect us emotionally, if it can affect us emotionally and there is fear in us and there rightly should be as we have been betrayed and hurt so many times before by PEOPLE, we now feel we have to analyze every aspect of anothers belief and question their intentions and judge them even if that persons very own life is a billion times better then ever before.
Greg, my question to you is why do you insult people and try and hurt people for telling you what they believe in their heart? I am not asking you this with a bad motive, I am just asking. I have watched you insult me on my grammar and poke fun at someone elses thoughts and beliefs, when neither of us did that to you when we read your opinions and what you think. I just think if I agreed with everything you were saying and expressing it with the same bad grammar, you most likely would not have insulted me....But, I don't know that for sure.
I go through my struggles in life just like anyone and there are times when I analyze and doubt my own faith and then there are times when I wanna just say fuck all this because doing what is right in my heart can be be fucking hard as hell and is hardly ever what I want to do. But, then I ask myself something when I want to question the bible...."what if the bible is right and all true?" See, if I turn my back on Jesus and God and I die only to find out that I was wrong and all this is true and heaven and hell is the final result....well I just fucked myself for the final time and get to live with that result for eternity. If I continue to have faith and learn to have faith and try to continue to improve myself and my own spiritual connection to God and try to help other people in any way I can while following my heart and simply feeling good about decisions I am making and most certainly feeling the pleasures of watching someone else grow out of their misery and unhappiness to actually have values in their own life....all because I have faith in a God of hope. Well if I die and then I find the truth is not what I was hoping for....what harm was done by me or my beliefs and my blind faith? Whats the real risk here really?
Greg, you mentioned that us christians are just scared people...that very much does apply to me as I am scared, I am scared of evil, I am scared of my own evil, I am scared of my own will, I am scared of failing, I am scared of hurting people, I am scared for other people and I will gladly and willingly "hide" behind my savior in Jesus Christ and let him strengthen and comfort me. I don't have to do all this life stuff alone anymore and I am beginning to really feel like I have a purpose in this world.
So, I want to thank you because your questions actually steared me back to the bible once again and gave me more of a desire to study and learn and grow closer to God. I was originally going to continue this whole debate and type in answers to some of your questions that I found some answers to but, I decided not to as I realized that if I could find them, you most certainly can to for yourself if you truely have the desire and a willing open heart.
Doesn't matter what info I find and post....if you believe that my beliefs are wrong and that yours are right...it won't matter what I put. But to me, it sounds a lot like you found your own higher power.....You. I am not in any way trying to bash you or insult you by saying that either, that is your God given choice. I tried that avenue for a long long time and my "holy self" failed me everytime, but perhaps you are different...what do I know. I hope and pray that all of you find the answers you all seek in your own hearts.
And Therion,
I have felt and feel your pain man and will keep you in my prayors.
Sincerely,
Scott Davis
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 12:55:00 AM
A couple things, Scott. I was very carefull not to insult anyone but instead called into question your words. Read back and you will only see me questioning the arguments and ad hominem attacks and asked for evidence that was never produced.
Second, you are welcome. I encourage thought wherever it leads to, to or from the bible, away or towards your religious myths. I just cannot stand meaningless statements like "believe in believing" and this type of crap. It has no place in an adult debate
.
I Never made fun of your grammer, Scott, I poked gentle fun at the content of some statements that were silly. That is what debaters do, question others words. this was a debate, and it was framed that way early in the conversation.Perhaps you are not skilled in debating tactics and don't understand the rules?
INever tried to hurt you only tried to make you think past the box you were thinking in. I think to that end I succeeded.
Keep questioning everything Scott. I bit of warning, tho...many of those that have "dedictated their lives" to studying religion have in fact dedicated their lives to justifying and making excuses for what is written.
Logic 101. Christianity claims the bible is the infallible word of God and that "god is good". Now, it either is or isn't the word of god. If it can be demonstrated by the bible that the writing are indeed fallible by either 1) being contradictory 2) proven false 3) indicating extreme cruelty by "god"
then the first or second statement is proven false. That is,l The bible is not the word of God or the god of christianity is not good.
Whether god exists or not is a whole different topic.
Now, in conclusion to your response, I am not interested in finding your answers because I am an experienced debater in religion. I have likely heard your excuses (answers) you claim to have found to my questions. I challenge you to post them, in fact, so we can talk about them.
And Scott,how much more condensending could you be with insinuating I think I am a higher power? I have found my "higher power". It is not me, it is the voice of reason and thought, skeptical thinking and logical scientific reasoning. works for me, give it a try. It makes a lot more sense than believing in supernatural beings bartering for your soul (another entity that is scientificly doubtfull) and jumping down your throat and possesing your body, lakes of fire that a wonderfull loving superpower barbeques his people in for the sin of not believing in him when he won't show himself?
How much more ridiculous can we be as a species?
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 01:03:00 AM
"Okay, gather around and take a lesson in basic logic. Just because a story is written "coincides" with certain historical events does NOT validate the story.
It is like saying "escape from New York" is a true story because we can verify there is a place called New York.
None of the supernatural bullshit in the bible is historically relevant. None of it. I challenge you to produce one supernatural story that can be verified. I also challenge you to produce one document, written during the time of christs supposed life, that mentions him."
If I am so full of it, you should be able to rise easily to this challenge. No one has.
Yawn......
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 02, 2004, 06:30:00 AM
Like I said before, I would be great to be able to believe all of this...I've gotten a lot out of this discussion. Nothing that has convinced me yet, guess the scientist/skeptical side of me is winning at the moment.
When we are pleading with foreign governments to stop the flow of cocaine, it is the height of hypocrisy for the US to export tobacco. Years from now, our nation will look back on this application of free trade policy and find it scandalous.
1989 testimony before the US Trade Representative,September 1989
--Surgeon General, Everett Koop
Post by: taureana on March 02, 2004, 09:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-02-28 23:21:00, animals all of us wrote:
"Dear Scott,
Consider that King James, you probably have a king james bible like most do, at least somewhere nearby you might. King James altered the bible, and so did many other kings before and after him. Popes altered the bible to fit the needs of their holy wars.
Kings, popes, and those with the money and books and knowledge held the sway on everything and everyone below them.
I mean to say, however, that inasmuch as I believe in a Jesus and the holy trinity, I also believe that the ability to alter or retranslate stories in this realm are too possible to deny just the same as I am certain I get hungry throughout my day.
"
This is so true. We cannot rely on the King James Version of the Bible as a basis for belief. The translation that I use has been translated to English direclty from the original writings. And in order to get a correct translation, one must not only translate word for word, but also look at the context of the words and the meanings behind what is being said.
For instance, in our language we have the word "love". I love my children differently than the way that I love my husband. I have a love for mankind in general which keeps me from killing people and just being an outright tyrant. I love my friends differently than any of these. In the Greek scriptures, there are 3 different words for love. Agape, philia and eros. Agape is love governed by principle, or knowing the difference between good and bad. So agape is the love that I have for manking. It rules my conscience, so to speak. This is the kind of love that Jesus talked about when he said to love your enemies. (Mt. 5:44) Philia would be the love that I have for my close friends and family members that is not sexual in nature. It would include a personal attachment to them that is sentimental in nature. (James Strong?s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, in its Greek dictionary (1890, pp. 75, 76) And eros is the love between the sexes, a romantic type of love based on sexual attraction.
But you confuse me Animals, because you discredit some of the translators but then believe in the Trinity. A Protestant publication states: ?The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.? (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity ?is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.??New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: ?In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word tri´as (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.?
However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas?A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian?s words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: ?But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology.?
Post by: ehm on March 02, 2004, 10:10:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-03-02 06:55:00, taureana wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-02-28 23:21:00, animals all of us wrote:
"Dear Scott,
Consider that King James, you probably have a king james bible like most do, at least somewhere nearby you might. King James altered the bible, and so did many other kings before and after him. Popes altered the bible to fit the needs of their holy wars.
Kings, popes, and those with the money and books and knowledge held the sway on everything and everyone below them.
I mean to say, however, that inasmuch as I believe in a Jesus and the holy trinity, I also believe that the ability to alter or retranslate stories in this realm are too possible to deny just the same as I am certain I get hungry throughout my day.
"
This is so true. We cannot rely on the King James Version of the Bible as a basis for belief. The translation that I use has been translated to English direclty from the original writings. And in order to get a correct translation, one must not only translate word for word, but also look at the context of the words and the meanings behind what is being said.
For instance, in our language we have the word "love". I love my children differently than the way that I love my husband. I have a love for mankind in general which keeps me from killing people and just being an outright tyrant. I love my friends differently than any of these. In the Greek scriptures, there are 3 different words for love. Agape, philia and eros. Agape is love governed by principle, or knowing the difference between good and bad. So agape is the love that I have for manking. It rules my conscience, so to speak. This is the kind of love that Jesus talked about when he said to love your enemies. (Mt. 5:44) Philia would be the love that I have for my close friends and family members that is not sexual in nature. It would include a personal attachment to them that is sentimental in nature. (James Strong?s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, in its Greek dictionary (1890, pp. 75, 76) And eros is the love between the sexes, a romantic type of love based on sexual attraction.
But you confuse me Animals, because you discredit some of the translators but then believe in the Trinity. A Protestant publication states: ?The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.? (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity ?is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.??New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: ?In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word tri´as (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.?
However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas?A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian?s words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: ?But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology.?
"
Wow!!! That's very impressive! You have done some studying. I'm most impressed with the way you can express yourself without being rude, tacky, or insulting! :nworthy: :wink:
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 10:24:00 AM
I appreciate your heart and note.
we are not to understand all yet...the Bible says that now we see like through a dimly lit mirror but someday we will see him face to face and know. His ways are not are ways but higher than ours..
remember when I hit on the scripture that if you can't control your passion you should get married..how opposite to the world's thinking is that..the world says that if you can't control yourself stay single or you'll hurt your partner..but the Bible says to get a partner and stay committed for life if you need to be physically passionate? Wish Christians could really get ahold of that truth.
Imagine looking down from heaven (as God) to earth and how small cities look- then imagine how small people would look - then imagine how small their brains would look.. to imagine that I would have more insight in my tiny brain than a Mighty, Living God??...the Bible teaches that in the last days they will call good bad and bad good
my heart breaks for all that have endured what I see as Hell on Earth experiences when God given protectors have been convinced not to protect you - and seeming evilness has had free run..in the name of self control-
I believe these days are difficult for children - some of the toughest ever..more influences and we hold them to such high standards..more so then when I was growing up..IMO I can see where it looks like the enemy has used this industry to destroy some of the best and brightest- some that may have had a great calling to make a significant contribution to our world have been taken out in one way or another
yet the enemys purpose has and always will be to do whatever is possible to keep creation from relationshhip with their Heavenly Father- he'll use whatever works but his intent is to keep you distanced from the truth.
The Bible also says that when talking with unbelievers it will be like you talk another language they cannot understand- yet His heart is for all to know the Love of a Father through him..and there is only one way to the Father- through the Son
I am so anxious to get to heaven yet have to be careful whom I share that with = some have thought me to be suicidal but I actually have envied those elderly that I've prayed for God to recieve.. to be in paradise with Him..I cannot wait yet know that his timing is not mine...
I'm thankful for the peace and hope that you have found - - I pray that your words will have planted new hope and released a spirit of sonship over readers. ... for you that all that the enemy has stolen will be restored in your life.
To be a Christian is to strive to be like Christ and I see that in your posts
Lord bless you
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 12:30:00 PM
"we are not to understand all yet..."
"now we see like through a dimly lit mirror but someday we will see him face to face and know"
"the scripture that if you can't control your passion you should get married.."
"the Bible teaches that in the last days they will call good bad and bad good"
"my heart breaks for all that have endured what I see as Hell on Earth experiences when God given protectors have been convinced not to protect you - and seeming evilness has had free run..in the name of self control"
"yet the enemys purpose has and always will be to do whatever is possible to keep creation from relationshhip with their Heavenly Father"
and my favorite...
"The Bible also says that when talking with unbelievers it will be like you talk another language they cannot understand"
(direct response...no, I understand the language completely you are speaking, you just aren't speaking with clarity and direction, you are rambling nonsense).
and on and on and on ad nausem...
Dear god (less), can you at least to approach this topic logically and with a sense of the direction of the debate? We didn't ask for a cryptic lecture on being religiously vague, we asked for your evidence the bible is the word of god, or part two of the debate, actual evidence a god exists or to explain the cruelty, contradictions and scientific inaccuracies in the bible.
Save the vague preaching for those that appreciate that type of thing, please.
Post by: RTP2003 on March 02, 2004, 01:18:00 PM
I'm with you, but all you're doing in the end is reinforcing their smug ignorance. They will pull out little phrases from their book of fables such as the one about "speaking a different language" to convince themselves that they see the "truth" while we ignorant agnostics and atheists remain unwitting tools of the "Enemy".
I just think you're wasting your time, buddy.
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 01:30:00 PM
Now, the religious people who are sincere and can answer a question with "I don't know" or "I just feel it in my heart" or other such sincere emotional responses, well these people get all my respect.
Those that start by attacking, claiming they are being attacked, answer with idiotic phrases like "belive in believing" or "to those that are not religious it is like we are speaking a language they can't understand", well, these people deserve to hear a bit of logic and reasoning injected into their twisted thinking.
Perhaps they will shut their ears and pray it away, but I like this conversation. There are all elements of humanity and science wrapped up in one little topic, and it is fun.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 03:49:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 05:52:00 PM
my post was directed to Scott, perhaps you missed that. I appreciate your brilliance yet it doesn't overwhelm or persuade me. There are some things that I know that I know and they may defy logic...glad at least you're interested in the subject and hope you continue your search.
seems you're looking for a debate...won't find one here - wish you the best in all that you do.
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 06:06:00 PM
I don't wish to change your mind, only make you think about what you say and how you say it.
I am searching, anon, but not in the sense you suggest. I am not searching for supernatural answers to questions for which I do not know the answer. I am only searching, in the context of this discussion, for open discussion on things that are frequently said by the religious that normally go unchallenged.
We haven't even got to the prior assertion that someone made here, that a portion of the "arc" had been found.
Hey, great Idea, lets talk about the flood and the fantastical finding of the Arc as referenced earlier by I think Scott. (forgive me if it was someone else).
Post your evidence that the flood happened, that the world was covered completely by water and two of every species was on one boat, and that all life is descendent from same. Better still, post your evidence that the flood of noah is an original biblical story and not lifted almost verbatim from a different, earlier religion.
warning, I may be baiting you here into a discussion that will not increase your faith....
:grin:
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 06:25:00 PM
don't really have the time or feel the neccesity to convince you-(that's the job of the Holy Spirit) those are some resources if you're interested. didn't realize until now that you're were trying to shake the faith of others...
from my experience once you have a life transformed by Christ Jesus there's not much the world or intellects can do to change your mind...thankfully I'm possessed and spoiled for the world and it's views- hard to explain it's a supernatural experience that seems to be happening at outstanding rates these days...
maybe you could ask God if he's real to give you a supernatural experience?
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 06:46:00 PM
As for you, I didn't think you would pick up my challenge. I am not trying to "shake your faith" I am trying to engage conversation on why you believe in these fantastical supernatural stories. Again, attack the messenger, bring into question their motives, or claim some higher authority (thats the holy ghosts job, ask god to...). In other words, duck behind fallicious arguments...
Yawn.....
Lets talk about the flood and the Ark and stop this mumbo jumbo. You claim to be well read on the subject, enlighten us!
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 06:51:00 PM
"you have a life transformed by Christ Jesus there's not much the world or intellects can do to change your mind...thankfully I'm possessed and spoiled for the world and it's views- hard to explain it's a supernatural experience that seems to be happening at outstanding rates these days..."
Watch CNN or Fox news, anon, cultic religious experiences and claimed "supernatural" events are nothing new or nothing unique to christianity. Hell, this stuff has been going on since perhaps before the written word. Still not one shred of credible evidence anywhere that any supernatural event has ever occured.
If I am wrong, present it here.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-02 15:53 ]
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 07:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-02 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not a bible scholar or a religious zealot, but I think the "flood" is a myth/tradition that is in lot of different religions, some in fact many older than christianity. Same thing with the scape goat thing of Jesus. I think I remember this stuff from religion classes in my college days."
Right you are, anon. The myth of the great flood and noahs ark was directly plagarized from another earlier religion. It is not a "christian story" at all, or even a jewish story.
Only the names were changed to protect the credulous.
anyone challenge this assertion?
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 07:16:00 PM
Many biblical stories have been proven to hold truth, but like Cayo said, "a comit in the sky could have been seen as a sign from God back then." So things did occur, but why is debatable. Nature or God?? but one thing remains the same, I heard about the movie,
Seems like a bunch of swival-headed, rubbernecking, casuality vampires flocking to the theatre to see Jesus suffer and get nailed to a cross.
(typical christianity)
"who cares about his teachings, we want to see gwar," shouts the christian.
Why do people use a cross as a worship symbol?
Why not replace Lincoln with a bullet on the penny?
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 07:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-02 16:16:00, Reagon Youth wrote:
"Sadom and Gamorrah have been discovered buried under volcanic ash via satelite.
"
Really?this has been verified? what is the name of the archeologist? Is he credible?
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 07:49:00 PM
NASA reliable?? don't know, their spaceship blew up last year and part of it landed on my car and fucked it up.
I called and asked them for their insurance and they never called back.
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 08:58:00 PM
I can't wait for this verification! Bring it!
Caveat, just because two cities may be buried under volcanic ash does not confirm the biblical story. In fact, it is very likely that ancient cities near volcanoes may be buried under volanic ash. This in no way proves or disproves the biblical account.
and could it be, that this was one guy interpreting NASA photos, NOT NASA and NOT A arceologist but instead a "bible scholar" and that this interpreter had a predesposition to find religious verification, and that no one else has bought into it? In other words, it was one of the very common things that you hear with a splash then quietly disappear when not shown to be credible?
Just asking....
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-02 18:05 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 09:45:00 PM
"It is accomplished", were Jesus' last words.
Sounded pretty damn prophetic, to me.
:sad:
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 09:56:00 PM
1) It's all history. If you do your homework you will see that what you call fairy tales actually coincides with historical events. (an asssumption that if a historical event is mentioned, it validates the supernatural...a dubious unfactual claim)
2) in response to a query that "there are no historical contemporary references to Jesus during his lifetime, we get from Scott "how many do you want", ( then we get ZERO. NONE.)
3) The bible is one of the only most historically correct writings of our time and this is proven. (patently false the bible contains contradictory accounts of hundreds,if not thousands of stories, often in the same sections.)
4) they have actually found part of the ark (No details, no validation, no pictures, no citations, just a random declaration)
5)Carl Sagan said there was a "giant hand" guiding the universe. (when asked to produce the quote, a no show)
6)The book "the bible code was relevant" ( a proven fraud)
7)To know evil is to know God. Simple as that.(no it isn't, but thanks for the logic lesson)
:cool: brains and pride can be dangerous things in the Kingdom of God(one of my favorites..hey, check your brain at the door...your in heaven baby!)
9)Greg, my question to you is why do you insult people and try and hurt people (when all greg (me) did was question the outrageous statements that christians generally get away with. Say something be prepared to back it up)
10)I could type in answers to some of your questions that I found some answers to but, I decided not to(oh boy, here we go, got the answer but you can't have it. How credible is that?)
11)The Bible also says that when talking with unbelievers it will be like you talk another language they cannot understand( in other words, anything you say is valid, we just don't understand...hmmm)
12)Sadom and Gamorrah have been discovered burief under volcanic ash via satelite verified by NASA no less!!( a precursory research of this "fact" indicates it was a "religious scholar" not a scientist and certainly not NASA, and it is an interpretation largely dismissed as kooky in the world of science.)
This is just the start and is a window into the mind of the credulous. We also have the Shroud of tourin, the casket of jesus, face on mars, the stain of virgin mary, weeping icons, faith healers, and the other fraudulent religious relics and persons that shows up from time to time. They have ALL been proven to be fraudulent on one level or the other. This evidence is dismissed or overlooked and people just damn choose to believe the supernatural because it feels good to explain away their death in wonderous terms.
With christianity, you never die. The people who questioned your belief burn for eternity! What a deal!
With Muslims, you get to fuck virgins for eternity! What a deal! (unless you are the virgin and get sentenced to eternity with one of these goat herders)
With other religions, you get to do it again with improvement over and over! fucked up your life? Do it again next time better! No problem! Kind of the religious equivalent of the movie "groundhog day.
Manwhile, my daughters science book from her Baptist school clearly states that the bible is infallible and ALL EVIDENCE AND SCIENCE THAT TENDS TO DISCREDIT THE BIBLE MUST BE DISMISSED! THIS IS THE BASIS FOR 'CREATION SCIENCE'. THIS IS NOT SCIENCE, IT IS ANCIENT RELIGION THAT PEOPLE WITH A RELIGIOUS AGENDA ARE SHOVING DOWN OUR COLLECTIVE THROATS. THEY ARE TRYING TO STOP THOUGHT AND PROGRESS, TRYING TO REVERSE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY,
Well, creation science terrorists, the earth is round, it is old, There is no 'firmament between heaven and earth, light did not exist before the stars, there was no flood that covered the earth, there is no evidence "giants" ever walked the earth, there is no evidence a virgin was impregnated by god, there is no credible evidence for supernatural beings including gods, goblins, devils, ghosts, angels,demons, vampires, or other such scary stuff.
this is so basic, so ancient, and so telling of our weak scared state as a species. A little grey matter is a dangerous thing, but not in heaven as anon says...right here on earth!
Post by: GregFL on March 02, 2004, 09:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-02 18:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, I'm glad I saw the movie, but man, it turned my stomach to watch everybody around me gorging themselves on buttered popcorn and supersize softdrinks while that angry mob of "disbelievers" essentially beat and tortured Jesus of Nazareth to death. It was sickening to watch these moviegoers as they stuffed their expressionless faces, not a one covering their eyes or ears, or wiping the tears, as I did virtually throughout the entire movie.
"It is accomplished", were Jesus' last words.
Sounded pretty damn prophetic, to me.
:sad:
"
I havent seen the movie, but I read the book from cover to cover several times, and often refresh my readings for discussions like this. i find the bible a fascinating window into superstition and ancient man myths.
Jury is still out when I will see the movie. Kind of waiting for HBO to pick it up in a couple years. I feel no urgency.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2004, 11:46:00 PM
The bible is false
Don't believe the bible
'Cause the bible is false
The torah is wrong
The torah is wrong
Judaism's evil
And the torah is wrong
Islam's insane
Islam's insane
Mohammed died of syphilis
And Islam's insane
The Pope is a queer
The pope is a queer
He has sex with little boys
The Pope is a queer
Religion is bad
Religion is bad
Started up by aliens
To fuck with your head
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 12:06:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 12:42:00 AM
God is god
god not bad
don't believe
others sad
we are right
you are wrong
doubt is sin
burn all days long
Stop your brain
it is bad
believe instead
ancient fad
god hides
you can't find
you dont see
god myth unkind
god myth plays games
society makes you play
you don't bite
inject some fright
look and learn
read and explore
expand your mind
speak from the floor
fuck the system
fuck tradition
open your eyes
stop the lies
superstition will halt
knowledge will grow
religion has fault
learn and grow
mankind must change
shed its lies
move forward
open its eyes
as we move forward
anchors from the past
drag us down
knowledge drown
speak your mind
advance mankind
reject supernatural
embrace factual
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 01:06:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Biblical' locust plague threatens Mideast
Ahead of Passover, U.N. agency warns of potential devastation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 2, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
With the Passover celebration just weeks away, a locust plague of biblical proportions could threaten parts of the Middle East and Africa, according to a United Nations agency.
An outbreak that potentially could darken the sky and consume everything in its path is "in progress on the Red Sea coast in Saudi Arabia where swarms are forming," the Rome-based U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization said.
Despite intensive control operations, swarms are expected to move into the country's interior where a further generation of breeding could occur in the spring. Some could reach areas in Jordan, southern Iraq and Western Iran later in the spring, the agency said, according to the JTA news service.
The U.N. agency is appealing for $9 million to stave off outbreaks in desert parts of northern and western Africa, including Mali, Chad and Mauritania.
"If control operations have to slow down or be interrupted, more locusts added to those already there could contribute to eventually transforming the current situation into a plague," the organization warned.
According to the book of Exodus, a locust outbreak was one of the 10 plagues inflicted on the Egyptians prior to Israel's flight from captivity, commemorated by Jews and many Christians in the Passover celebration.
"The Bible and talmudic literature describe the plague of locusts as one of the worst visitations to come upon the country," the Encyclopedia Judaica says. "Its gravity and extent varies from time to time."
Another plague of locusts in the Bible was recounted by the prophet Joel, who said they made the fig tree "clean bare; the branches thereof are made white," JTA notes.
The U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization says the desert locust, a form of grasshopper, can quickly multiply into massive swarms capable of moving hundreds or even thousands of miles.
"When the locusts find ideal conditions in a sequence of seasonal breeding areas, upsurges can develop and lead to rapid multiplication and increasingly large swarms," said the U.N. organization, which has a special Locust Group to coordinate operations against any threat.
"If an upsurge is not controlled, a plague can occur in which swarms invade countries outside the traditional breeding areas," the agency said, according to JTA. "Crop damage by swarms can be devastating."
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 01:10:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 05:50:00 AM
Greg has asked some direct questions that I would like to hear some direct answers to.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 03, 2004, 05:51:00 AM
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
--Clarence Darrow
Post by: taureana on March 03, 2004, 06:45:00 AM
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On 2004-03-02 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not a bible scholar or a religious zealot, but I think the "flood" is a myth/tradition that is in lot of different religions, some in fact many older than christianity. Same thing with the scape goat thing of Jesus. I think I remember this stuff from religion classes in my college days."
College professors and educators are PAID to teach evolution rather than creation, to discredit the Bible as non-scientific. But that's just not true. If we grant that a great flood could have happened, why have scientists found no trace of it? Perhaps they have, but they interpret the evidence some other way. For example, orthodox science teaches that the surface of the earth has been shaped in many places by powerful glaciers during a series of ice ages. But apparent evidence of glacial activity can sometimes be the result of water action. Very likely, then, some of the evidence for the Flood is being misread as evidence of an ice age.
Similar mistakes have been made. Concerning the time when scientists were developing their theory of ice ages, we read: ?They were finding ice ages at every stage of the geologic history, in keeping with the philosophy of uniformity. Careful reexamination of the evidence in recent years, however, has rejected many of these ice ages; formations once identified as glacial moraines have been reinterpreted as beds laid down by mudflows, submarine landslides and turbidity currents: avalanches of turbid water that carry silt, sand and gravel out over the deep-ocean floor.? (Quotes from Compton's Encyclopedia)
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then, all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
An editorial in the magazine Biblical Archaeologist observed: ?It is important to remember that the story of a great flood is one of the most widespread traditions in human culture . . . Nevertheless behind the oldest traditions found in Near Eastern sources, there may well be an actual flood of gigantic proportions dating from one of the pluvial periods . . . many thousands of years ago.?20 The pluvial periods were times when the surface of the earth was much wetter than now. Freshwater lakes around the world were much larger. It is theorized that the wetness was caused by heavy rains associated with the end of the ice ages. But some have suggested that on one occasion the extreme wetness of the earth?s surface was a result of the Flood
Post by: taureana on March 03, 2004, 06:53:00 AM
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On 2004-03-02 15:06:00, GregFL wrote:
"
Post your evidence that the flood happened, that the world was covered completely by water and two of every species was on one boat, and that all life is descendent from same. Better still, post your evidence that the flood of noah is an original biblical story and not lifted almost verbatim from a different, earlier religion.
<"
I know this is lengthy, but you asked for proof of the flood. I have copied and pasted the research for you so that I don't miss anything.
The Flood of Noah?s day was such a devastating cataclysm that mankind could never forget it. Over 2,400 years later, Jesus Christ spoke of it as a fact of history. (Matthew 24:37-39) This awesome event left such an indelible impression on the human race that it has become legendary all over the world.
In the book Myths of Creation, Philip Freund estimates that over 500 Flood legends are told by more than 250 tribes and peoples. As might be expected, with the passing of many centuries, these legends have been greatly embellished with imaginary events and characters. In all of them, however, some basic similarities can be found.
As people migrated from Mesopotamia after the Flood, they carried accounts of the catastrophe to all parts of the earth. Thus, inhabitants of Asia, the islands of the South Pacific, North America, Central America, and South America have tales of this impressive event. The many Flood legends existed long before these people were exposed to the Bible. Yet, the legends have some basic points in common with the Biblical account of the Deluge.
Some legends mention violent giants living on the earth before the Flood. Comparably, the Bible indicates that before the Deluge disobedient angels materialized fleshly bodies, cohabited with women, and produced a race of giants called Nephilim.?Genesis 6:1-4; 2 Peter 2:4, 5.
Flood legends usually indicate that one man was warned about a coming deluge of divine origin. According to the Bible, God warned Noah that He would destroy wicked and violent ones. God told Noah: ?The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth.??Genesis 6:13.
Legends concerning the Flood generally indicate that it brought about global destruction. Similarly, the Bible says: ?The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.??Genesis 7:19, 22.
Most Flood legends say that a man survived the Deluge along with one or more other persons. Many legends have him taking refuge in a boat he had built, and they have it land on a mountain. Comparably, the Scriptures say that Noah built an ark. They also state: ?Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.? (Genesis 6:5-8; 7:23) According to the Bible, after the Deluge ?the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,? where Noah and his family disembarked. (Genesis 8:4, 15-18) Legends also indicate that Flood survivors started to repopulate the earth, as the Bible shows that Noah?s family did.?Genesis 9:1; 10:1.
With the foregoing points in mind, let us consider some Flood legends. Suppose we begin with the Sumerians, an ancient people who inhabited Mesopotamia. Their version of the Deluge was found on a clay tablet unearthed in the ruins of Nippur. This tablet says that the Sumerian gods Anu and Enlil decided to destroy mankind with a giant flood. Being warned by the god Enki, Ziusudra and his family were able to survive in a huge boat.
The Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh contains many details. According to it, Gilgamesh visited his ancestor Utnapishtim, who had been granted eternal life after surviving the Flood. In the ensuing conversation, Utnapishtim explained that he was told to build a ship and take cattle, wild beasts, and his family into it. He built the ship as a huge cube 200 feet [60Â m] on each side, with six floors. He tells Gilgamesh that the storm lasted six days and six nights, and then he says: ?When the seventh day arrived, the hurricane, the Deluge, the shock of battle was broken, which had smitten like an army. The sea became calm, the cyclone died away, the Deluge ceased. I looked upon the sea and the sound of voices had ended. And all mankind had turned to clay.?
After the vessel grounded on Mount Nisir, Utnapishtim released a dove that returned to the boat when it could not find a resting-place. This was followed by a swallow that also returned. A raven was then released, and when it did not return, he knew that the water had subsided. Utnapishtim then released the animals and offered a sacrifice.
This very old legend is somewhat similar to the Biblical account of the Flood. However, it lacks the graphic details and simplicity of the Bible account, and it does not give reasonable dimensions for the ark nor supply the time period indicated in the Scriptures. For instance, the Epic of Gilgamesh said that the storm lasted six days and six nights, whereas the Bible says that ?the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights??a continuing heavy rain that finally covered the entire globe with water.?Genesis 7:12.
Though the Bible mentions eight Flood survivors, in Greek legend only Deucalion and his wife, Pyrrha, survived. (2Â Peter 2:5) According to this legend, before the Flood the earth was inhabited by violent individuals called the men of bronze. The god Zeus decided to destroy them with a great flood and told Deucalion to build a large chest and get into it. When the flood subsided, the chest came to rest on Mount Parnassus. Deucalion and Pyrrha descended from the mountain and started mankind again.
In India there is a Flood legend in which Manu is the human survivor. He befriends a small fish that grows to a large size and warns him of a devastating flood. Manu builds a boat, which the fish pulls until it is grounded on a mountain in the Himalayas. When the flood subsides, Manu descends from the mountain and with Ida, the personification of his sacrifice, renews the human race.
According to the Chinese flood legend, the thunder god gives a tooth to two children, Nuwa and Fuxi. He instructs them to plant it and to take shelter in the gourd that would grow from it. A tree promptly grows from the tooth and produces a huge gourd. When the thunder god causes torrential rainfall, the children climb into the gourd. Though the resulting flood drowns all the rest of earth?s inhabitants, Nuwa and Fuxi survive and repopulate the globe.
Indians of North America have various legends that carry the common theme of a flood that destroys all but a few people. For example, the Arikara, a Caddo people, say that the earth was once inhabited by a race of people so strong that they ridiculed the gods. The god Nesaru destroyed these giants by means of a flood but preserved his people, the animals, and maize in a cave. The Havasupai people say that the god Hokomata caused a deluge that destroyed mankind. However, the man Tochopa preserved his daughter Pukeheh by sealing her in a hollow log.
Indians in Central and South America have flood legends with basic similarities. The Maya of Central America believed that a great rain serpent destroyed the world by torrents of water. In Mexico the Chimalpopoca version tells that a flood submerged the mountains. The god Tezcatlipoca warned the man Nata, who hollowed out a log where he and his wife, Nena, found refuge until the water subsided.
In Peru the Chincha have a legend of a five-day flood that destroyed all men except one whom a talking llama led to safety on a mountain. The Aymara of Peru and Bolivia say that the god Viracocha came out of Lake Titicaca and created the world and abnormally large, strong men. Because this first race angered him, Viracocha destroyed them with a flood.
The Tupinamba Indians of Brazil spoke of a time when a great flood drowned all their ancestors except those who survived in canoes or in the tops of tall trees. The Cashinaua of Brazil, the Macushi of Guyana, the Caribs of Central America, and the Ona and Yahgan of Tierra del Fuego in South America are among the many tribes that have flood legends.
Throughout the South Pacific, legends of a flood with few surviving are common. For example, in Samoa there is a legend of a flood in early times that destroyed everyone except Pili and his wife. They found safety on a rock, and after the flood they repopulated the earth. In the Hawaiian Islands, the god Kane became annoyed with humans and sent a flood to destroy them. Only Nu´u escaped in a large boat that finally grounded on a mountain.
On Mindanao in the Philippines, the Ata say that the earth was once covered by water that destroyed everyone except two men and a woman. The Iban of Sarawak, Borneo, say that only a few people escaped a deluge by fleeing to the highest hills. In the Igorot legend of the Philippines, only a brother and sister survived by taking refuge on Mount Pokis.
The Soyot of Siberia, Russia, say that a giant frog, which was supporting the earth, moved and caused the globe to be flooded. An old man and his family survived on a raft he had made. When the water receded, the raft grounded on a high mountain. The Ugrians of western Siberia and Hungary also say that flood survivors used rafts but drifted to different parts of the earth.
What can we conclude from these many Flood legends? Though they differ greatly in details, they have some common features. These indicate an origin in some gigantic and unforgettable cataclysm. Despite vivid colorations over the centuries, their underlying theme is like a thread that ties them to one great event?the global Deluge related in the simple, uncolored Bible account.
Since the Flood legends are generally found among people who did not come in touch with the Bible until recent centuries, it would be a mistake to contend that the Scriptural account influenced them. Moreover, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says: ?The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood . . . Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.? (Volume 2, page 319) So we can confidently conclude that the Flood legends confirm the reality of the Biblical account.
Post by: taureana on March 03, 2004, 06:59:00 AM
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On 2004-03-02 16:16:00, Reagon Youth wrote:
"
Why do people use a cross as a worship symbol? "
Good question, Timmy. Here's what I found:
THE cross you see on the steeple of a neighborhood church, on its altar and as pendants around the necks of many of your neighbors is actually a pagan religious symbol. It was revered throughout the pagan world long before the advent of Christianity. This is admitted by many religious and historical authorities, as we shall see.
In its edition of 1908, The Catholic Encyclopedia states in volume 4, page 517: ?The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization.? The book The Ancient Church by clergyman W. D. Killen concurs by saying, on page 316: ?From the most remote antiquity the cross was venerated in Egypt and Syria; it was held in equal honour by the Buddhists of the East; and, what is still more extraordinary, when the Spaniards first visited America, the well-known sign was found among the objects of worship in the idol temples of Anahuac. It is also remarkable that, about the commencement of our era, the pagans were wont to make the sign of a cross upon the forehead in the celebration of some of their sacred mysteries.?
If you belong to one of Christendom?s churches, did the church ever tell you that the cross is a pagan symbol? If it did not, it withheld the truth from you. It has encouraged you to hold in reverence an admittedly pagan symbol. ?But,? you may say, ?did not the early Christians regard the cross as a symbol of Christianity?? No, they did not. It was not until about the middle of the third century of our Common Era that professed Christians began to use it as such. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: ?By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.?
At the beginning of the third century Minucius Felix wrote to the pagans in Octavius and revealed the attitude that early Christians had toward the cross up to that time. He said: ?Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. . . . Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.? (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 191) True Christians never revered the cross or regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity.
Many persons contend that the cross is used by the churches because Christ died on one. That is what the churches say, but it is not the truth. Admitting uncertainty as to whether Christ died on a cross, the church paper of the Evangelical-Lutheran State Church of Schleswig-Holstein, Die kirche der Heimat (The Church of the Homeland), remarked in its issue of August 2, 1951: ?Whether the cross on Golgotha had a crossbar or not or whether it was just a plain stake, whether it had the T-form or whether it had a crossbar placed across the upright stake is hardly possible to determine now.?
That the word ?cross? appears in many English translations of the Bible does not prove that Christ?s death instrument was in the shape that the churches claim. The word ?cross? stands for a number of shapes. There is the simple upright stake, called in Latin crux simplex; the crux commissa, which was shaped like the letter ?T?; the crux decussata, which was shaped like the letter ?X,? and the crux immissa, which was like the letter ?T? but with the crossbar lowered. So when the English word ?cross? is used in Bible translations made by the churches, how are you to know which of these forms is meant?
The Greek word from which the English word ?cross? is translated by the churches is stauros´, but to the Bible writers it did not stand for the cross that churches display as the symbol of Christianity. It meant a plain upright stake. On this the book An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: ?Stauros denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz.?
Note also what is stated in The Companion Bible, published by the Oxford University Press. On page 186 in the ?Appendixes? it says: ?Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon [which means a timber] in connection with the manner of our Lord?s death, and rendered tree in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 2:24. . . . There is nothing in the Greek N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber. . . . The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.?
The cross used by the churches has not the remotest connection with Christianity. It is instead a sacred symbol belonging to ancient pagan religions, religions that the God of truth abhorred and against which he warned the nation of Israel. (Deut. 7:16, 25, 26) It was a recognized symbol in the religion of ancient Egypt.
The Egyptian cross, known as the crux ansata, was surmounted by a circle. This combination represented the male and female procreative organs. Referring to the female symbol on this cross?the circle?by the Hindu term yoni, the book Sex and Sex Worship by O. A. Wall states on page 359: ?The crux ansata (cross with a handle) was used all over the world from India, Assyria, Babylon, Egypt, to Sweden and Denmark (old Runic) and in the Western Continent. . . . It is the ankh of the Egyptians, the symbol of life, because it represents the feminine yoni in union with the masculine tau cross.?
Again, I know this is lengthy, but I didn't want to leave out any pertinent information.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 07:38:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 09:10:00 AM
--the cross says- we won..and Jesus is alive and is not on the cross he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords- and also for many symolizes the heavy sacrifice that Jesus went through for us...the cross is a bridge to cross the great divide.
sometimes the Word says ...the foolish things of the world will confound the wise.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 09:15:00 AM
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 03, 2004, 09:34:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 11:19:00 AM
Starting again with basic logic, the person making the claim has the burden of proof. The claim is laid out, there was a flood that covered the entire earth approx 2000 years before christ, and the story is original to the bible. If this really happened, archeological evidence would be present througout the world, on every continent, in every stratafied layer of rock. It isn't there. It doesn't exist.
1)your evidence of the flood: the cut and paste discredits archeologist and say they MAY have misinterpreted data. NO EVIDENCE THE FLOOD HAPPENED WAS POSTED, ONLY SUPPOSITIONS AND RELIGIOUS WISHFULL THINKING and of course, the retelling of the story.WE ARE LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE.
If you disagree, cut out the fat and post only the evidence here. So far, we have none. you posted this: "Thus, inhabitants of Asia, the islands of the South Pacific, North America, Central America, and South America have tales of this impressive event."
2) your evidence the flood is an original bible story. NONE. Only a long cut and paste from a religious apologist site that attempts to retell the stories from a christian slant. The discovery in the ninteenth century of tablets that predate the bible by about two thousand years in a different language tell a story amazingly similar to Noahs ark. The problem is it spells the almost exact myth using different people.. This has been a big problem for christianity to explain so they have resorted to attempting to discredit earlier writings.STILL NO EVIDENCE THE FLOOD HAPPENED, BUT PLENTY OF EVIDENCE THE MYTH PREDATES THE BIBLE AND WAS LIFTED ALMOST VERBATIM. Links available to the source upon request.
Dear people, floods are not unusual events. The ancient people thought the world was defined by the horizon. During the time the flood supposedly occured, Egypt was prospering and writing down their history. They apparently stayed dry througout this event. NO MENTION OF THE FLOOD FROM EGYPTION HISTORY.There is NO credible evidence of a worldwide flood and plenty of evidence the story of the bible flood was a plagarism of an earlier myth. The sheer foly of claiming two of every species on the planet fit into a ship with only one door,were fed and kept alive(all with very unique dietary needs..imagine the food stock), survived and mated is unreal, especially in light of all the animals, insects, primates and other life that are unique to areas far far away from the Ark. Did the people who wrote this fable know about this? Nope. but if there was a god, he sure would. More evidence this was a man fable.
Now, we still, 12 pages later into this thread, are left with not a shred of evidence this ever happened. The burden of proof is the purveyor of the story. We don't even have a shred of evidence, let alone proof.
: GregFL on 2004-03-03 09:40 ]
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 10:51 ]
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 11:26:00 AM
Great Story! Now, if a race of giants lived, there should be archeological evidence. Provide it please....
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 11:30:00 AM
Today the geological (and historical) evidence for the non-occurrence of a worldwide flood is simply overwhelming....... The first concerns the sequence of the sedimentary deposits. There are two kinds of sediments: high energy and low energy sediment. Based on simple laboratory tests and field observations of actual floods, it can be shown that high energy sediments, such as gravel, are deposited during the height of floods. Low energy sediments, such as siltstone, mudstone and claystone, are deposited during the waning of the floods. Thus if there is a worldwide flood we would expect that there would be a uniform worldwide sedimentary formation with the high energy sediments (ancient gravel, sands) at the bottom and the low energy sediments at the top. Yet this is not seen on anything close to a global scale. As Professor Plimer pointed out, if this is to be seen on a global scale, oilfield geologists would have an easy job since all sedimentary formation would invariably have sandstone at the bottom and siltstones, mudstones and claystones at the top!The second concerns the evidence of the environment of the sediments during its time of deposition. Chemical and fossil evidence shows that some sedimentary rocks were formed in freshwater environments while others were formed in a saline (salty-seawater) environment. Clearly the waters that was sent by God during the deluge was either fresh or saline; it couldn?t be both!
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 11:38:00 AM
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On 2004-03-03 03:53:00, taureana wrote:
Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.? (Volume 2, page 319) So we can confidently conclude that the Flood legends confirm the reality of the Biblical account.
"
Interesting conclusion, but not based in fact. Try this on, a cut and paste in response to your cut and paste. No evidence, just interpretations of ancient myths!
The obvious similarities could not have been, not by any stretch of imagination, due to coincidence. One of the account is clearly dependent on the other. So the question is, which is the original and which is the copy? There are many reasons to believe that the Babylonian version is the original:
The first is antiquity. The writing of the epic of Gilgamesh has been dated by archaeologists to around 2000 BCE. Thus it predates the Genesis account by at least a few centuries.[a]
The second is the presence of loan words. The Akkadian word for pitch (or bitumen): kofer. This is precisely the word used in the Genesis story. Nowhere else in the Bible does the word kofer appears except in the story of the flood. [4]
The third is the general flow of influence. We would expect the greater civilization to have a greater cultural influence on a lesser one. Compared to Babylonia, Israel was, as Cyrus Gordon said, a ?backwater of sorts?.
The fourth reason is from the original source of the myth . Floods are common in the Mesopotamian plains, it is unusual in usually arid Israel. It is easy to see how the flood myth could have originated from some stories told in the Babylonian plains, it is not so easy to see how anyone from Israel could have thought of that myth originally.
Finally, the location of the story gives a clue to its origins. The geography of the ark story points towards its Mesopotamian origin. Noah?s ark landed on Mount Ararat, which is at the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates.
It is therefore conclusive that the story in Genesis is a direct descendent of the Babylonian story.
The Akkadian tablets, like the story in Genesis, are collections of myths. There was, however, a brief period of respectability, in the first half of the twentieth century, given to the notion of the occurrence of an actual catastrophic flood. An archaeological expedition in 1929 led by Sir Charles Leonard Wooley (1880-1960) found at the site of the ancient city of Ur, a stratum of clean clay about eight feet thick. Wooley originally estimated the layer of silt to be about four hundred miles long and about one hundred miles wide. The layer was dated at around 4000BC. Had this been true, a flood of such a magnitude would certainly has qualified as "world-wide" to the ancient Babylonians, for the area estimated by Wooley represented the whole of the known world to them. However, subsequent expeditions has shown that the thick layer of silt is localized and was nowhere as widespread as Wooley first thought it to be. [6]
Was Noah actually a historical person? Again archaeological evidence supplied the answer. In 1933 clay tablets were discovered in Mari, an ancient city in the Mesopotamian plain. In these tablets (there were about 20,000 discovered), the name Noah appeared many times; as the name of a god.[7] In fact Noah?s name is actually a musculanisation of the goddess of rain, Nuah.
a. The story of the twelve tablets were estimated to have been written about 2000 BCE. Even assuming "best case" biblical chronology, i.e. that Genesis was written by Moses himself, this brings the writing of Genesis to only about 1400 BCE. Thus the Akkadian tablet is earlier than the Genesis story. According to critical theologians, the earliest form of the Hebrew flood story was written only around 900 BCE. But the version as we have it in the Bible was not complete until the period of the exile c. 6th century BCE.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 08:43 ]
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 03, 2004, 11:38:00 AM
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On 2004-03-03 08:19:00, GregFL wrote:
Dear people, floods are not unusual events. The ancient people thought the world was defined by the horizon. During the time the flood supposedly occured, Egypt was prospering and writing down their history. They apparently stayed dry througout this event. NO MENTION OF THE FLOOD FROM EGYPTION HISTORY.There is NO credible evidence of a worldwide flood and plenty of evidence the story of the bible flood was a plagarism of an earlier myth. The sheer foly of claiming two of every species on the planet fit into a ship with only one door,were fed and kept alive(all with very unique dietary needs..imagine the food stock), survived and mated is unreal, especially in light of all the animals, insects, primates and other life that are unique to areas far far away from the Ark. Did the people who wrote this fable know about this? Nope. but if there was a god, he sure would. More evidence this was a man fable.
Exactly! IF there was a flood of devastating proportions, 'devastating proportions' would be defined by their view of the world at the time. As Greg said their view of the world was limited to what they could see. If a flood came along that was worse than anyone had ever seen before (doesn't mean it was covering the entire Earth, but from THEIR point of view it would be) there would be a need to explain that, just like the thunder example. Now that we have scientific FACTS about the world then and now, we can explain previously 'unexplainable' phenomena. I wish I could remember the Discovery Channel (SatanTV to some believers) program that explained how a 'great' flood could have happened, but that it was very different from what is written in the Bible. They theorize that approx. 1/3 of a mountain was blown off by an eruption and slid into the water. When the wave created by this reached the next shore, major flood. A flood of proportions that no one would have ever seen before. Pretty scary. If they could come up with a REASON why it happened (we sinned and God sent the flood to rid the Earth of sinners) then they could possibly PREVENT it from happening again. That brings me to the question I asked before....What if we, being aware of our own mortality, are grasping at something to believe, that we're not in this alone, that someone is looking out for us, that we go on after we die. Those are all comforting thoughts, just like it was comforting to believe that if they behaved better, they could prevent another flood.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
Mark Twain
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 12:17:00 PM
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On 2004-03-03 03:45:00, taureana wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-03-02 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not a bible scholar or a religious zealot, but I think the "flood" is a myth/tradition that is in lot of different religions, some in fact many older than christianity. Same thing with the scape goat thing of Jesus. I think I remember this stuff from religion classes in my college days."
Another evidence for the Flood appears to exist in the fossil record. At one time, according to this record, great saber-toothed tigers stalked their prey in Europe, horses larger than any now living roamed North America, and mammoths foraged in Siberia. Then, all around the world, species of mammals became extinct. At the same time, there was a sudden change of climate. Tens of thousands of mammoths were killed and quick-frozen in Siberia. Alfred Wallace, the well-known contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered that such a widespread destruction must have been caused by some exceptional worldwide event. Many have argued that this event was the Flood.
Yawn.
No, the sedimentary evidence for a cataclysmic (sp ?) event that caused world wide extinction of many specicies exists and has been scientifically explained, dated and the area is known. It is not a flood.
Care to bite?
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 11:03 ]
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 12:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-02 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Posted: 2004-03-02 22:05:00
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'Biblical' locust plague threatens Mideast
Ahead of Passover, U.N. agency warns of potential devastation
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Posted: March 2, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
With the Passover celebration just weeks away, a locust plague of biblical proportions could threaten parts of the Middle East and Africa, according to a United Nations agency.
Double Yawn. Locusts plaques are nothing new and nothing unusual.
Post by: kpickle39 on March 03, 2004, 12:33:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 12:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 03:45:00, taureana wrote:
"Quote
College professors and educators are PAID to teach evolution rather than creation, to discredit the Bible as non-scientific.
"Quote
No, this post is condenscending and insulting to the thousands of committed and dedicated scientists working in the field of higher education. In addition, it has no basis in fact and is just anti-science pro creationist religious propoganda.
Scientists are trained to go where the evidence leads them, to or from their theory. Science is self correcting with new information. Science is subject to peer review. "creationism" is none of that.
The bible and the "creation story" simply has no place in a science class until such time legitimate sciencific evidence indicates creation is a viable theory. It is not, it is wholey unsupported by any credible evidence. "creation science" in fact is not science. "creationism starts with a conclusion, that the bible, a supernatural book, is the infallible word of god, and tries to back into that. "creationism" accepts the supernatural without evidence because it is written in a "infallible" book. This is totally against all scientific methodology and disqualifies "creationism" as a legitimate discipline of science. "creationism" is a creation of religion, not science.
Class dismissed, now Go across the hall to Philosophy or religion and study the creation myth. Leave the scientists alone so they can test scientific theories, not spew christian religious propoganda.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 11:06 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 01:32:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 01:32:00 PM
You claim none but choose to believe anyway. That is a personal decision I can't critise!
And I do believe prayer works, but I believe the change affected comes from within the person and not an outside source aka God or Jesus or some other supernatural entity.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-03 10:36 ]
Post by: kpickle39 on March 03, 2004, 01:44:00 PM
1. I graduated straight and lived to tell about it
2. I fell in love w/a woman that actually accepts me and understands my demons.
3. I am not too crazy.
4. I have dealt w/my anger 'bout straight, sembler et al.
5. American by birth, southern by the grace of God (just kidding)
Now do I attribute these miricles in my life to God? Yes, and lots of hard work on my part. (and plenty of forgiveness on my wifes)
Keep up the thread....this is great!
PS - I heard on NPR last week that htere has been a study on prayer and its impact on people in crisis. The study said that praying for others has no effect on their hard times, but individual prayer for oneself does have a positive impact on defeating things like illness.
[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-03-03 10:46 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 02:12:00 PM
wondering..
how is it that your daughter is in a baptist school? for whatever reason hope that someday she is accepted for who she is and what she may believe by you -dad-
because if dad is angry/annoyed (as you seem) that she might believe something dad sees as wrong what would dad do to make her see his way?...would you care less and condition your love for her based on what she believes? some parents who place their children in facilities tried to change what their children believed and attempted to ensure they would grow up and live the life they (parents)thought was pleasing..hope that you are an unconditional lover where she is concerned.
also curious saw where someone wrote they love satan - is that you? if yes, what's to love about satan? and if not what is it that you personally believe in?
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 02:20:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 02:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg this thread was started by someone sharing about the Passion of the Christ movie and his thoughts on it but somewhere the focus seems to have changed. personally I've not seen the movie yet and would like to hear from more who have
wondering..
how is it that your daughter is in a baptist school? for whatever reason hope that someday she is accepted for who she is and what she may believe by you -dad-
because if dad is angry/annoyed (as you seem) that she might believe something dad sees as wrong what would dad do to make her see his way?...would you care less and condition your love for her based on what she believes? some parents who place their children in facilities tried to change what their children believed and attempted to ensure they would grow up and live the life they (parents)thought was pleasing..hope that you are an unconditional lover where she is concerned.
also curious saw where someone wrote they love satan - is that you? if yes, what's to love about satan? and if not what is it that you personally believe in?
"
Oh boy, here we go. Lets turn this interesting discussion into a ad hominem attack on the doubting thomas.
Just to appease you, anon (why are you anon but asking personal questions?) I will answer them honestly.
Lets start backward because the last is my favorite.
1) NO I DON'T BELIEVE IN SATAN. THAT WOULD INDICATE I BELIEVED IN THE BIBLE AND IN THE SUPERNATURAL. I DON'T. That was a troll post between two of my posts. Go back and read, fer christs sake!
2) My daughter is in a baptist school because she is a baptist and wanted to go there. I share custody fully 1/2 time with my ex and my daughter is there with my blessing. I don't object to religion, ANON, I reject to anti-thought supernatural mumbo jumbo. My precious daughter also knows how I feel about her science class. I also take her and pick her up from church and from Wednsday night church meeting, and even mill about and socialize with the church members (the horror!) In fact, I used to go there when I was married some 7 years passed. I tell my dauther to don't let anyone decide what she should believe but instead to explore topics and decide on her own. She does just that.
3) the topic switched to a debate because claims were made and evidence was asked for, then more claims were made and people whined they were being attacked when they weren't. If you want to talk more about the movie, by all means do, but I got the feeling all was said about the movie by everyone who wanted to. Most people liked it,some didn't. Still more are enjoying this debate, and I suspect more are reading than are contributing, including up to now..you. Care to share? Go ahead.
4) Lastly, I am not angry or annoyed. That discintion is saved here for the credulous like you that seem to always feel they have to assign negative attributes to others that don't agree with them. In fact, I am still enjoying this conversation. It goes almost like every religious debate, the religious attack the non religious at the same time claiming they are under attack. However, I don't take offense, I enjoy the dance and actually smiled when I saw your post. In fact, I was wondering what took you so long.
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 02:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 10:44:00, kpickle39 wrote:
"Well, I can't produce any evidence 'bout the "miricles" or "supernatural events" that are attributed to Jesus or God. The only evidence that I have is the "miricles"that have happened in my life. Of course, God helps those that help themselves. The supernatural events that happened to me are:
1. I graduated straight and lived to tell about it
2. I fell in love w/a woman that actually accepts me and understands my demons.
3. I am not too crazy.
4. I have dealt w/my anger 'bout straight, sembler et al.
5. American by birth, southern by the grace of God (just kidding)
Now do I attribute these miricles in my life to God? Yes, and lots of hard work on my part. (and plenty of forgiveness on my wifes)
Keep up the thread....this is great!
PS - I heard on NPR last week that htere has been a study on prayer and its impact on people in crisis. The study said that praying for others has no effect on their hard times, but individual prayer for oneself does have a positive impact on defeating things like illness.
[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-03-03 10:46 ]"
Wouldn't that be great if it was true? I think attitude affects one personally, and if someone believes praying will help them, then there is going to be at times a placebo affect. I see no evidence of supernatural intervention. There was a study some years back that indicated blind prayer affected statistically (by a very small margin) the healing of heart patients and the christian community and news media jumped all over the story. The framers of the experiment blind prayed for certain individuals and those individuals seemed to statistically improve at a small but measurable increase over the others. Unfortunately, the studies were proven flawed, The selection methods were shown to not be random,it couldn't be repeated under proper controls(which is absolutely essential for statistical validity) and didn't survive peer review. In typical fashion, that didn't get reported in the mainstream media and websites still report this as fact, that prayer has been "proven" to improve your chance of recovery.
And Mike my friend, the things you listed are are great happenings in your life but none of them are explained away by the supernatural. I have acomplished many of them myself without praying or believing in God.
BTW, I did a stint as a believer actually during my final months as a seedling. Care to know what cured me? I read the bible cover to cover. The more I read, the more interested I became, but also the less I believed. My favorite book in the old testament is Genesis (although Kings and Leviticus follow right behind) and my favorite book of the new testament is Revelation. Talk about an acid trip!! Revelation is like talking to a mad man on schrooms!
Reading the bible is a wonderfull exercise in critical thinking. However, you must pay attention to what you are reading to really appreciate what it is, a window into the superstitious mind of people several thousand years ago..
Post by: kpickle39 on March 03, 2004, 02:57:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 03:08:00 PM
Kudos.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 03:14:00 PM
Kpickle39
Thanks Greg- I try and apporach my life w/an open mind. Hell, I even learned to agree w/some democrat and libetarian (sp) by having an open mind; but - I'm still a liberal white guy from the south. LOL
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 03, 2004, 03:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg this thread was started by someone sharing about the Passion of the Christ movie and his thoughts on it but somewhere the focus seems to have changed. personally I've not seen the movie yet and would like to hear from more who have
I don't think the original post was intended as a movie review. This discussion evolved into what it is, which for me so far, has been very enlightening.
Quote
how is it that your daughter is in a baptist school? for whatever reason hope that someday she is accepted for who she is and what she may believe by you -dad-
because if dad is angry/annoyed (as you seem) that she might believe something dad sees as wrong what would dad do to make her see his way?...would you care less and condition your love for her based on what she believes? some parents who place their children in facilities tried to change what their children believed and attempted to ensure they would grow up and live the life they (parents)thought was pleasing..hope that you are an unconditional lover where she is concerned.
I think this is totally out of line. This is his personal choice regarding HIS daughter. He is free to raise his daughter however he sees fit. He didn't sound to me like he was angry with religion, per se, just the people who answer legit questions with things like "I believe in believing". The very FACT that she IS going to a Baptist school shows me that he is NOT closed minded.
and the little passive-aggressive dig at the end there about parents putting their kids in facilities was also out of line. If you've been reading these boards for any length of time, you know that he is a survivor of one of those very 'facilities'. To me, that was just to try and put him on the defensive.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 04:05:00 PM
There is a kind of cultural war going on in this country where the christian right is on all fronts trying to impose, by law and social pressures, their morality and religion on everyone else even as the country continues to become more and more diverse.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 03, 2004, 04:07:00 PM
Quote
There is a kind of cultural war going on in this country where the christian right is on all fronts trying to impose, by law and social pressures, their morality and religion on everyone else even as the country continues to become more and more diverse.
Dude, you're still living in the 80's.
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 04:21:00 PM
Go back to the other thread where you are all slinging insults and trolling up a productive website, or stay here and actually try to contribute.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 03, 2004, 04:22:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 03, 2004, 04:25:00 PM
I do, however, believe in the power of prayer because if people truly believe then they are going feel comforted by that. I would love to be able to feel that way too, but unless I see actual evidence, I cannot take the Bible literally. To me it represents a collection of stories, maybe based on truth, but embellished to teach a lesson. There's nothing wrong with that. If you think those lessons are valid and they help you to live a happier, more peaceful life...wonderful, then by all means, BELIEVE. I think everyone can learn a lot about living a happier life from the Bible, but not for the same reasons YOU believe that.
Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.
--Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 05:38:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 06:14:00 PM
There is a hierarchy of spirituality which puts believing in something because you have looked inside your heart for truth over believing in something because it is written in the bible. We are all connected to each other and to this universe, and that is where the truth lies.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 06:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 06:47:00 PM
some believe that the only Christian vote is a Rep. vote - I disagree and hear many in my circle re- thinking the current administration..for many reasons..mine have much to do with what I've learned of the family ties to Sembler and this industry- that I've learned from Straight survivors..sort of cemented it for me when bush says he'll give 30 million to districts that want to randomly drug test teens!
sorry about the anon. for reasons I must stay this way but I'm a real person and interested in what is happening in the industry you were placed in and regulating it in the future so we don't have a nation full of children being parented by checkbook and fear..
I'm also interested in how the lives and values of those placed in these total control enviroments are playing out..lots of sad stories out there and with record numbers of kids in private prisons now long term effects seem important - I'm interested in the values of those abused how your experience may have caused you to draw near or draw away.
hope that the cycle is broken and you all parent in a respectful way..
also believe it takes the Lord to restore what the enemy has stolen ..or some pretty good doctoring- individual spirits were damaged or destroyed or attempted to be destroyed.. the only fixer of broken spirits I know of is who I call Lord
also for most of my life I ignored and dismissed God--but it's not at all about religion in fact the Bible says He hates religion - it's about relationship with him....Imagine that He as your heavenly Father could love you more than you love your daughter..pretty awesome to meditate on that..
I choose not to respond to some of the questions by choice- the Supernatural is just that supernatural and I am told to live by faith and not by sight - to believe in things unseen..I've found that not only 5 senses can discern by by my spirit as well
know that you would find the reading of "Evidence that demands a Verdict" intellectual enough for you..hope you will take me up on it.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 07:04:00 PM
some believe that the only Christian vote is a Rep. vote - I disagree and hear many in my circle re- thinking the current administration..for many reasons..mine have much to do with what I've learned of the family ties to Sembler and this industry- that I've learned from Straight survivors..sort of cemented it for me when bush says he'll give 30 million to districts that want to randomly drug test teens!
sorry about the anon. for reasons I must stay this way but I'm a real person and interested in what is happening in the industry you were placed in and regulating it in the future so we don't have a nation full of children being parented by checkbook and fear..
I'm also interested in how the lives and values of those placed in these total control enviroments are playing out..lots of sad stories out there and with record numbers of kids in private prisons now long term effects seem important - I'm interested in the values of those abused how your experience may have caused you to draw near or draw away.
hope that the cycle is broken and you all parent in a respectful way..
also believe it takes the Lord to restore what the enemy has stolen ..or some pretty good doctoring- individual spirits were damaged or destroyed or attempted to be destroyed.. the only fixer of broken spirits I know of is who I call Lord
also for most of my life I ignored and dismissed God--but it's not at all about religion in fact the Bible says He hates religion - it's about relationship with him....Imagine that He as your heavenly Father could love you more than you love your daughter..pretty awesome to meditate on that..
I choose not to respond to some of the questions by choice- the Supernatural is just that supernatural and I am told to live by faith and not by sight - to believe in things unseen..I've found that not only 5 senses can discern by by my spirit as well
know that you would find the reading of "Evidence that demands a Verdict" intellectual enough for you..hope you will take me up on it.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 08:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 15:35:00, ShaneUNC wrote:
"I say we should definitely question anything that tells us it is wrong to question it. .....
I still don't know what is out there. I don't understand it. AND I am very weary of anybody who thinks they DO understand what is out there.
SH
Hell, none of us do Shane. that is the purpose of all these competing religions and superstitious beliefs. We have been blessed with enough brain power to figure out wonderfully complex things, and cursed with to little to rationalize our own mortality.
This is our plight as humans.....
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 08:13:00 PM
My brain refuses to function on tilt.....
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 08:51:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 03, 2004, 09:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-03 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"glad to see your posts too Greg- sorry I must have mis-read the posts about your daughter I thought it was typed in alot of CAPS indicating irritation?
Apology accepted. Words or sentences in all caps, in internet language, especially mixed with lower cased words, usually means EMPHASIS. Paragraphs or entire posts in all caps usually means anger or is the cyperspace equivalent of yelling. My caps are AlMOST always meant for emphasis.
I rarely get angry in internet chat groups and in fact haven't gotten angry in a seedling derivate related internet site in years.
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2004, 11:44:00 PM
------------------------------------------------
In the Territory of Antipas
Herod the Great ruled the entire Jewish homeland for over thirty years with the tide King of the Jews. After his death, the Roman emperor Augustus divided his territories, placing Galilee and Perea, areas northwest and east of the Jordan, under his son Herod Antipas with the title of tetrarch, and placing Samaria,Judea, and Idumea, areas west and southWest of the Jordan, under a Roman governor with the title of prefect.
Why did two peasant movements, that of John and that of Jesus, arise in Perea and Galilee rather than in Samaria, Judea, or Idumea? Why did they arise under the Herodian kingling Antipas rather than under his father, Herod the Great, who ruled the entire country from 37 to 4 B.C.E., or under his half-nephew Agrippa 1, who ruled the entire country from 41 to 44 C.E.? And, because Antipas ruled between 4 B.C.E. and 39 C.E., why did they arise in the late 20s rather than in any other period of that long reign? Why did two movements, the Baptism movement of John and the Kingdom movement of Jesus, arise in the late 20S of that first common-era century in the two separated regions of Antipas's territory, John in Perea east of the Jordan and Jesus in Galilee to its northwest? Why precisely there, why exactly then?
This Land Belongs to God
The Roman world was an aristocratic society, a preindustrial empire It, which the peasantry produced a very large agricultural surplus. But, as in any agrarian empire, a tiny minority of political and religious elites, along with their supporters and retainers, held the peasantry at subsistence level and thereby obtained levels of luxury those exploited and oppressed Peasants could hardly even imagine. The Roman Empire, however, was no longer a traditional but rather a commercialized agrarian empire, and the Jewish peasantry was being pushed into debt and displaced from its holdings at higher than normal rates as land became, under the commercializing Roman economy, less an ancestral inheritance never to be abandoned and more an entrepreneurial commodity rapidly to be exploited. In a traditional or uncommercialized agrarian empire, business or investment intrudes minimally if at all between aristocrats and peasants. There exists almost a steady state situation in which peasants produce and aristocrats take, and it almost looks like an inevitable if not natural process. Peasants resist exploitation, of course, but in the same fatalistic way that they resist other unfortunate but implacable phenomena such as storm, flood, or disease. But with commercialization even the guarantee of owning one's own familial plot of well-taxed land is gone, and the peasantry, having learned that things can change for the worse, begin to ponder how they might also change for the better, even for the ideal or utopian better. As ancient commercialization, let alone modern industrialization, intrudes into an agrarian and aristocratic empire, the barometer of possible political rebellion and/or social revolution rises accordingly among the peasantry. That was. precisely the situation in the Mediterranean world of the first century. The Roman civil wars, from Julius Caesar against Pompey to Octavius against Antony, had ended with Octavius emerging as the victorious Augustus, and this Augustan Peace opened the Roman Empire to an economic boom. But booms do not boom alike for everyone.
The Jewish peasantry was prone, over and above the resistance expected from any colonial peasantry, to refuse quiet compliance with heavy taxation, subsistence farming, debt impoverishment, and land expropriation. Their traditional ideology of land was enshrined in the ancient scriptural laws. Just as God's people were to rest on the seventh or Sabbath Day, so God's land was to rest on the seventh or Sabbath Year:
For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the poor of your people mayeat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat. You shall do the samewith your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. (Exodus 23: 10-11)
When you enter the land that I am giving you, the land shall observe a sabbath for the Lord. Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather in their yield; but in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of complete rest for the land, a sabbath for the Lord: youshall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. (Leviticus 25:2--4)
On that seventh or Sabbath Year, moreover, Jewish debts were to be remitted and Jewish slaves were to be released.
Every seventh year you shall grant a remission of debts. And this is the manner of the remission: every creditor shall remit the claim that is held against a neighbor, not exacting it of a neighbor who is a member of the community, because the Lord's remission has been Proclaimed. Of a foreigner you may exact it, but you must remit your claim on whatever any member of your community owes yoe . . .
If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you- (Deuteronomy 15:1-3,12-14)
Excerpt:
Who Killed Jesus?
Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus
by John Dominic Crossan
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 03, 2004, 11:51:00 PM
One reason, certainly, is that it is the most horrifying sequence in the film, more agonizing even than the crucifixion itself, or the carrying of the cross. But there are other reasons as well.
The sequence is also an outstanding example of Gibson?s original vision of telling the story in the languages of the day, without subtitles. As the Roman centurions flog Jesus, their brutal, laughing mockery and derisive taunts go on for long minutes ? and the Latin is left untranslated. We don?t know what they?re saying, and we don?t need to know. Subtitles would be an unnecessary distraction.
At other points throughout the film, Gibson ultimately found it necessary to use subtitles; still, some of the most effective scenes remain the ones for which he was able to avoid them. As necessary as they may be in some scenes, especially on a first viewing, when the film becomes available on DVD everyone who buys it should watch it at least once with the subtitles turned off.
That the story was filmed in Latin and Aramaic at all is worthy of note. Put aside linguistic quibbles about what first-century Latin actually sounded like, or whether Jews and Romans wouldn?t have used Greek rather than Latin to converse with one another. The larger point is that, for the first time since the silent era, a cinematic Jesus is unencumbered by British-accented (or worse, American-accented) English, or by a European romance language, etc.
The scourging at the pillar also stands out for the way it cuts through the smoke of confusion and misinformation coming from both sides of the controversy surrounding the film. Watching this scene, two things become transparently clear.
First, notwithstanding at-times exaggerated claims of historical accuracy and fidelity to the gospels from some of the film?s defenders, The Passion of the Christ is not an attempt to depict the sufferings of Christ exactly as described in the New Testament. Rather, while following the basic outline of the passion narratives, the film is an imaginative, at times poetic reflection on the meaning of the gospel story in light of sacred tradition and Catholic theology.
Consider the following incident: As Jesus is being flogged, Claudia, the wife of Pilate, approaches the Blessed Virgin and Mary Magdalene bearing folded linens, which she gives to them. After Jesus is taken away, the two Marys go down on the flagstones and begin mopping up the blood of Jesus which has been spilled around the pillar.
This incident, found nowhere in the gospels; comes from the visionary writings of Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich, the 19th-century stigmatic and mystic whose Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ significantly influenced the screenplay for The Passion of the Christ. The scenario is strikingly evocative of Catholic piety regarding Jesus? precious blood, but doesn?t reflect a historiographical concern with sticking to the gospel accounts.
Not all of the film?s glosses on the gospel accounts come from Emmerich. The scourging at the pillar is also the occasion of one of Gibson?s own most singular, unnerving imaginative flourishes. A satanic figure haunts the film, watchful and inscrutable. We first see it in the garden of Gethsemane, where its attempts to dissuade Jesus from his mission are a nihilistic litany of negation: ?No man can bear this burden? No one. Ever. No. Never.?
At certain points this androgynous figure is depicted in opposition to the Virgin Mary ? but never more arrestingly so than before the pillar, where there is a kind of anti-Marian vision that I will not describe, except to say that it is so bizarre and grotesque, yet ultimately meaningless, that it seems to come straight from hell.
The other thing the scourging scene makes clear is the hollowness of activist complaints about the film?s supposed anti-Semitism. The depiction of the Jewish mob may be unflattering, but it pales to insignificance beside the unmitigated barbarism of the Roman brute squad. We also see the high priest Caiaphas watching the scourging ? not sadistically reveling in the spectacle of Jesus? sufferings, but clearly troubled, finding it painful to watch.
Significantly, this humanizing touch in Caiaphas?s characterization comes neither from the gospels, nor from sources such as Sr. Emmerich, but is original to the film. In fact, Sr. Emmerich?s account includes a strikingly different account of the Jewish onlookers during the scourging: She depicts Jewish leaders paying the Roman soldiers and plying them with drink to induce them to even more brutality. Gibson?s film not only omits this unsavory flourish, but goes in the opposite direction, giving a humanizing detail not found in the gospels.
For all this, though, the single most overwhelming aspect of the scourging at the pillar remains its sheer savagery. No previous Jesus film has ever approached this level of brutal violence ? in part because no previous film has ever focused so closely on the passion particularly.
Certainly, Jesus? passion and death was horrific and violent; and there is a long tradition, especially in the West, of devout meditation on the specifics of Jesus? sufferings (the sorrowful mysteries, the stations of the cross, etc.).
Yet when the film shows the soldiers stretching Jesus prone to nail him to the cross, then flipping the cross over and crushing him under it before raising it upright, some viewers, especially those less used to cinematic violence, may wonder whether this goes too far. Some, indeed, may not wish to see the film at all ? and may even feel guilty for feeling that way, as if having reservations about this film were somehow unchristian.
That would be a mistake. Movies, like everything human, are a matter of Christian liberty; no one is obligated to see, or like, any film in the world. The Passion of the Christ is an artistic expression of the faith, not the faith itself.
Yet it is also a preeminently important cinematic expression of the faith ? probably one of the most important religious films of all time. It tells only a part of the gospel story, as the passion narratives themselves are only a part of the gospels; but that part is the very crux: that Christ died for us.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 03, 2004, 11:54:00 PM
Quote
Personally, after seeing the movie, I also do not believe Gibson is anti-Seminic. However, this author presents a different view on the question of who killed Jesus which I found rather intriquing. Has anyone actually read this book? If so, I'd be interested in hearing their point of view.
The Jews are a jittery people," wrote Israel Zangwill. "Nineteen centuries of Christian love have worn badly on their nerves. " Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" is an excellent demonstration of why. The New Testament -- anti-Semitic? So what else is new? You can't fault Gibson for faithfully reflecting his source material.
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 02:52:00 AM
Wow, a great and funny quote by FT.
FT, actually contributing and not trolling!
Suddenly, I too believe in miracles!!
Post by: kpickle39 on March 04, 2004, 08:27:00 AM
Now mind you I live up in the rural panhandle of of northwest Florida and my doctor is 30 miles from my home. Small town, bout 6000 people. Anyway, it was a strange experience, as it always is when I drive into Quincy.
Kpickle, Straight St. Pete '78 - '80
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 10:39:00 AM
it is always interesting to me that the tiny spot of land that is Israel has for so many years has been under the spotlight of the world?
the gift of Jesus was just that a gift-- a willing sacrifice by a loving God...he was the final sacrifice- no more do we need to offer a blood sacrifice for our sin -lambs etc-..his perfect sacrifice and blood cover all. - if you want it- is the new deal -the new covenant- the Word says.. in Jesus a new and better covenant than that of the Old testament...not that we are to ignore the old but we are joint heirs to the promises through Christ Jesus.
his name is above all names and seems cursed above all names as well...the enemy knows the power in the Blood and in the Name of Jesus
it is true that we do NOT war against flesh and blood but principalities of power that rule the air..that infulence the flesh-
cannot describe how much fun it is to stand in the authority I have in Christ Jesus and rebuke sickness and schemes...with Him all things are possible and I've witnessed many things that should not have been in the natural..
Jesus said that those that believe will do Greater things than I do--Greater!!! if we could really get a hold of that and trust/believe??? we're suppose to trust as little children trust their parents.
IMO the church/religion has done a great dis-service to our youth I was raised in a Pres. church and never got it...I was never taught about the baptism of the Holy Spirit or that there are 2 baptisms one we do to each other in water and one only Jesus gives with Fire and Power...how many are looking for spiritual power and that we are made to hold and use His power for His Glory yet the church has said those gifts are not for today - all that has died away- that is BS and when I was baptised by Jesus - then my life changed and I saw anew and walked in authority before that it was like being wood in the surf being pushed around by the enemy and not knowing where my authority was....if you want to go to church and be fed I'd recommend finding a Spirit-filled church that teaches ALL of the Bible including the gifts of the Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit- that's what happened at Pentecost when they got fire on their heads and spoke in new tongues...it's way more fun than any chemical can bring - it's fun and God's will too... :smile:
it must be awful for the Father to watch his creation not entering into all that he has for them...just as it is hard for natural parents when children do not head our wisdom and fall into traps that they need not.
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on March 04, 2004, 10:53:00 AM
Quote
it must be awful for the Father to watch his creation not entering into all that he has for them...just as it is hard for natural parents when children do not head our wisdom and fall into traps that they need not.
Amen!! :nworthy: :rofl:
That's how the little fuckers get hooked on drugs.
Just read my book, "Gone Way Down." That will explain it all..
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 11:03:00 AM
ahh, anon, you just can't seem to keep your focus on the specifics we are discussing for some reason but instead want to turn this into a swarmy feel good preaching session of rambling religius references.
No thank you.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 08:04 ]
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 04, 2004, 11:06:00 AM
Quote
ahh, anon, you just can't seem to keep your focus on the specifics we are discussing for some reason but instead want to turn this into a swarmy feel good preaching session of rambling religius references.
Very well phrased, my good man.
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 12:57:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 01:20:00 PM
Stay and get serious about the discussion.
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 01:31:00 PM
tails not tucked but I'm not interested in continuing under those guidelines..I know what I know that I know...if you're not interested in hearing what a non-religous person with a real relationship with the Father has to say..then I'll go and wish you all the best --you've been dealt a touch hand in the past and hope that your future is full of peace and joy wherever you seek it
please all be good to those God has gifted you with- in particular your children and keep searching much of my concern is for the offspring whose parents have been locked up and abused...please ask for help where you need it I read in other threads of much hurt and despair..I hope that all of your needs are met....Allbest..
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 02:11:00 PM
So, thanks anyway but your christian religious rambling and vagueness offers nothing new to someone who was raised in the united states of america. anyone who hasn't heard that krill at least a thousand times would have to be dead. (tho not necessarily insane or in jail :grin:)
And you really believe FT is satanic? AWW, COME ON. Can't you recognize sarcasm when you see it? It was an attempt at humor by a poster that loves to troll and disrupt. Get a freaken clue.
This thread is about stating your belief and verifying what you say. You haven't done it one time. It is no surprise that when the conversation is framed as a serious discussion looking for verification of claims, many of the more incredulous christians all dissapear or start with the preaching, the attacking, the questioning of character, the invoking of "satanic" influence, etc etc.
Your writings here are so predictible as to be boring at best.
Goodday.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-05 06:38 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 03:58:00 PM
Post by: Penis Birders Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 07:10:00 PM
Where's old Penis Birder when you need him? :???:
You rang?
,ououououououououo.
o o
u u
o <0 o
u ( u
o x o
u c=========8 u
o o
u u
ouououou. .ouououou'
l l _|/
l l ." ".
l l /(o)-(o)
/_)ll / )
l_)ll '- o . .
_)l '.___.' / |/|_.
l l _/ / ._| '/
l_l .___./ ) /
_/__/__ l==l
/ / ` l l
// l l
` / l / l
; ll l____/
l ll l
; ll /_/
l-----< o.o >
/ > - <
| 8=m=====m=D
| | | |. .|
| | | |. .|
| | | |. .|
| | | _ _/
| | |^/ | ^
| / |
`'
By the way, don't waste your money on the Jesus Chainsaw Massacre. Why would you want to financially support the Nazis anyway? Nazis, Catholics--six of one, half dozen of the other.
Post by: Dr. Fucktard on March 04, 2004, 08:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 08:22:00 PM
A former agnostic wrestles with some of Christianity's most basic issues.
"It's fun to debate with Christians because there are so many contradictions in the Bible." That was my feeling during my years as an agnostic high school and college student. I never called myself an atheist. I felt that anyone who said, "I'm sure that God doesn't exist," was being arrogant. How could anyone know whether or not God existed? So I considered myself to be an open-minded agnostic.
I loved to argue with religious people - partly because I just liked to argue (with anyone) and partly because they seemed like sitting ducks. I liked to bait them about the problems that I saw in the Bible. But, you know, it was as I found out more about these "problem areas" that I learned what the Bible is all about.
As I read the story of Adam and Eve for a course on the Bible as literature, I noticed something for the first time. Of course, I had heard the story before in Sunday school, but I had never read the actual account in Genesis carefully. I saw in that chapter two God commands Adam, "But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." When I looked at Genesis chapter five, I found that Adam lived many years after eating from the forbidden tree and even had several children. I wondered, "Was God just bullying them with idle threats or did the writer of Genesis make a little mistake and misquote God?" I was amazed that anyone in their right mind could believe that the Bible was "God's Word" when it had such a glaring contradiction in the opening chapters. This continued to bother me for nearly two years, but there was something else that bothered me even more.
I had often heard my religious friends say, "Jesus died for our sins" or "Jesus died to save the world." I could see how the good example of Jesus' actions might possibly influence some men and women to live better lives, but it was inconceivable to me that anything done by one man nearly 2,000 years ago could have a direct effect on how we live in the 20th century. And I certainly couldn't see how Jesus' death, no matter how noble or unselfish, could possible make up for all the evil in the world.
In my opinion, if God existed, He would either have a loving and forgiving nature or He would not. If He wasn't inclined to forgive men's shortcomings, I didn't see how Jesus' death could change His mind, and if God was a forgiving sort, I couldn't see why He would need a human sacrifice to prove it.
At the time I never guessed that the answer to the problem in Genesis held a clue to understanding why Jesus had to die. I began to comprehend as I listened to a lecture by Hal Lindsey (who later wrote the best seller, The Late Great Planet Earth). He said that when God declared that Adam would die the same day, He was not referring to physical death, but rather to spiritual death.
Three Dimensions
He went on to explain that God had originally created man in three distinct parts (or dimensions.) The first is the physical body, which contains the five senses. Our body is not who we are. It's the physical house we live in.
The second part of man is the soul. This is the real you and me. It contains the mind (the non-physical source of thoughts which activates the physical brain), the emotions, the will and the conscience (or moral reasoning power.) The Bible teaches that the soul is non-physical and indestructible (it will exist in some state forever).
There is a third part of man called the spirit. I had always thought that the terms "soul" and "spirit" were just two names for the same thing, but Lindsey explained that the spirit is a sort of "non-physical eyesight" with which Adam could experience the non-physical world and personally "see" God and have fellowship with Him. Adam could look through his physical eyes at Eve and see and experience her. In the same way he could "look" through his spirit and directly perceive and experience God. Both were equally real and intimate.
Now this made a lot of sense to me. As a student of psychology, I had already decided that there must be a non-physical part of man. Even Freud, who was a confirmed atheist, was forced into an explanation of human behavior that involved non-physical elements. (No one has ever operated on a human brain and found a physical id, ego or superego.
I began to see how Adam's spiritual sense perception could have "died" and yet he could still be physically alive. As I studied further, I discovered that the biblical concept of "death" does not mean "ceasing to exist", but rather means "separation." In the Bible, physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. With the soul gone, the body ceases to function and begins to decay. Spiritual death means the separation of the spirit from God. With the spirit cut off from God, a man would still be able to function physically, but could no longer directly experience God.
I began to see that this Hebrew concept of spiritual death described me exactly. I had read and heard a great deal about God and had spent many hours thinking about the idea of God, but I certainly had never directly perceived or experienced Him.
Free to Chose
At this time I began to see the answer to something else that had bothered me. I had always said: "If God created man and man has an evil side to him, then why should God blame man for acting the way He made him?" (In the long run it seemed as though evil were God's fault, not man's.) But as I studied further, I saw that God had created man with freedom to respond to God's love and love Him back. For love to be real, a person has to be free to choose to love (and free to choose not to). For example, I want my wife to freely choose to love me, not to be forced into it.
If God had told Adam, "Here, do anything you want. There is nothing you can do that would be wrong," then there would have been no way for Adam to express his love and obedience toward God. If nothing was forbidden, then Adam couldn't choose to obey God since there would be no possible way to disobey.
So God gave Adam a choice. He said, "Don't eat from this tree." The moment God said that, the tree became "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." I think the tree was a neutral object from God's point of view. He could just as easily have said, "Don't touch that stick" or "Don't pick up that rock." Then we would have had the "stick" or the "rock of the knowledge of good and evil." Until this time, Adam had never personally chosen good or evil. If Adam had chosen to obey, he would have gained a personal knowledge of good. As it was, he chose to disobey and gained an experience of evil. In choosing to disobey God, Adam died spiritually. In turning away from God's command, Adam's intimate fellowship with God was broken - his "spiritual eyes" went dead and he could no longer experience God.
I had read in the New Testament that "the wages of sin is death." I now realized that "wages" are not a gift or a punishment. They are simply what we deserve, the natural result of our work. On payday you don't go to your boss, get down on your knees and say, "Oh, please, be kind and generous and give me my paycheck." You expect to be paid. It is the natural result of doing your work.
Natural Result
In the same way, spiritual death is not a punishment from God, but rather the natural result of man's free choice to separate himself from God and His will. Adam unplugged himself from God spiritually and the result was that he was cut off from God permanently. Adam had poked out his own spiritual eyes and there was nothing he could do to restore them. Even God Himself couldn't restore Adam's spirit without nullifying his free will. (That would be like a parent who says, "You're free to choose whether or not you want to go to the party tonight, but if you choose to go, I'm going to lock you in your room.") In order for Adam to be free, God had to honor his choice of disobedience and spiritual death.
When Adam disobeyed God, something even more startling happened. Not only was Adam eternally cut off from God, but also apparently there was such a profound change in Adam that he passed on this spiritual death to all of his offspring.
In the physical realm we know that some damage (such as radiation) can be so profound that a genetic mutation takes place and every generation after that is affected. Something like "spiritual mutation" took place when Adam sinned, and everyone since that time has been born physically and "soulishly" alive but spiritually dead - cut off from God.
My first thought was, "This seems unfair. That means I have to suffer for something Adam did thousands of years ago." But I soon realized that there were many times when I had consciously chosen to do things that I knew were wrong. If I hadn't inherited spiritual death, I would have cut myself off from God through my own choices! And I saw that God couldn't just forgive or overlook man's sin - to do so would take away his freedom and make him less than human. But I still didn't see how Jesus' death could be the solution to man's problem of spiritual death. One thing in
particular bothered me about Jesus. According to my Christian friends, Jesus was supposed to be God's perfect Son. In fact, they said He was God Himself in human form.
And yet in two different places it is recorded that on the cross Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" This was the most obvious problem of all. It seemed that Jesus Himself lost faith at the very end. How could we believe Jesus to be the perfect Son of God when He Himself seems to have denied it with His dying breath?
Spiritual Death
This proved to be the key that helped me to finally understand the Christian faith. I learned that Jesus not only died physically on the cross - He also died spiritually! While Jesus hung there, God the Father reached back in time and took the spiritual death that had been generated by Adam and those who came after him and placed it on Jesus Christ. Then (because He created time and lives outside of it) God looked forward in time and took all the spiritual death generated by you and me and all the other men and women who will be born until the end of time and put that death penalty on Jesus too.
Now I could see why Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" He was experiencing to the fullest the spiritual death generated by countless men and women throughout the ages. He literally experienced spiritual hell on the cross as He was cut off from God ? even though He committed no sin and was not deserving of death. He actually died spiritually in our place. In my place. In your place.
One thing continued to puzzle me. I could see how Jesus, if He lived a perfect life and therefore was never unplugged from God, could die spiritually for one other man's sin (and it seemed logical that He would have to stay dead eternally). But I couldn't understand how Jesus as one man could possibly die and stay dead for only a few days - [the Bible says He was resurrected three days later] - and still manage to pay off several billion eternities of separation from God.
Surprisingly, I found the answer while I was a student at San Francisco State College. I asked a math major who lived in my dorm about this, and he replied, "You've forgotten that Jesus, though He was in human form, was actually the infinite God. If He had suffered spiritual death for even 10 minutes, He would have generated more than enough death to pay for 100 billion eternities of separation from God. Remember He was giving up infinite life, and infinity multiplied times anything still equals infinity." Or as he wrote down for me: Jesus yielding infinite life x 10 minutes = infinite eternities of spiritual death payments.
Free Gift
But I was still confused about this: Why, if Jesus' death paid for all the spiritual death for all the ages, do men still experience separation from God? Then I realized that God still can't violate our free will without making us subhuman. God has gone to great trouble and sacrifice to provide forgiveness for us and to restore us to fellowship with Himself.
Forgiveness and a new spirit are free gifts that He offers us. If we refuse His gift, we will continue to experience spiritual death, and when our physical life ends, we will be cut off eternally from God and His love. Those who accept Christ's death as payment for their spiritual death are given new "spiritual eyes." They are again complete in body, soul and spirit. For the man who has this new nature within him, physical death is no threat. When the soul sheds the physical body, the man himself continues to grow and have fellowship with God through His spirit.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 04, 2004, 08:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-04 17:16:00, Dr. Fucktard wrote:
"Good to see you Penis Bird.
"
Uh oh, there are two of us!
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 08:58:00 PM
I declare myself the winner of this debate and Im jumping to the thread where everyone is smoking bud. All these trolls are fucking with my buzz.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 17:59 ]
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 18:04 ]
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 09:03:00 PM
Hey Penis, get me a beer while your up, and fuctard, you bastard child abuser, pass the fucking bong.
I cant take this crap anymore. This guy is an idiot.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 18:06 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 09:45:00 PM
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 04, 2004, 09:55:00 PM
Now I've gotta warn you, this is a gateway drug.. :lol:
Post by: Scott D on March 04, 2004, 09:57:00 PM
Scott
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2004, 10:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-04 18:55:00, Dr Fucktard wrote:
"One bong hit coming up, Greg..
Now I've gotta warn you, this is a gateway drug.. :lol: "
Then lets skip the formalities....pass the crackpipe.
Don't make me motivate for it.
FUCK.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 10:37:00 PM
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 10:39:00 PM
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 10:46:00 PM
infinity x anything = gazillions of payments. What is the matter, can't you see thru eyes of awareness? You must not speak the language!!!!
Oops, he forgot one thing...infinity x zero = zero.
Anon, QUICK, GO CUT AND PASTE SOMEONE ELSE's IDIOT RAMBLINGS AGAIN.
Egad, a flaw in your math formula!!!!!!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 10:53:00 PM
The last struggles of a great superstition are very frequently the worst.
--Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918)
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 10:56:00 PM
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
--Clarence Darrow
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 10:57:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 10:59:00 PM
then again, maybe its the crack!
:grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 11:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-03-04 09:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"just letting you know what the Word of God says "
the word of God that was written by man, correct?? Passed down, mostly by word of mouth, from generation to generation. And all of this is STILL to be taken literally? I think that's an unanswered question. Is the Bible to be taken literally? I know how I feel, and Greg, and others, but Anon, I don't know how YOU feel about this particular point. Is the Bible to be taken as literal history?
I, for one, hope you don't run off. I've enjoyed this conversation. I still haven't seen any evidence that was promised at the outset of this debate, but I have found it most enlightening non-the-less. I believe that the power of faith is incredibly strong and can change lives. But again, not for the same reasons as you do.
Instead of giving money to fund colleges to promote learning, why don't they pass a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting anybody from learning anything? If it works as good as the Prohibition one did, why, in five years we would have the smartest race of people on earth.
--Will Rogers
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 04, 2004, 11:08:00 PM
The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
George Washington
Post by: GregFL on March 04, 2004, 11:15:00 PM
::spam::
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 20:17 ]
Post by: Queen Bitch on March 04, 2004, 11:35:00 PM
Post by: Dr. Fucktard on March 05, 2004, 01:13:00 AM
Post by: glider on March 05, 2004, 04:49:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 05, 2004, 04:51:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on March 05, 2004, 09:36:00 AM
We vote and god shall smite your fornitating homosexual satan worshipping God hating selfs straight to hell to burn and burn and burn for eternity in a huge lake a fire with nawing and lashing and general misery.
and oh yeah, God loves you.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on March 05, 2004, 09:51:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on March 05, 2004, 10:40:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-05 07:40 ]
Post by: Cayo Hueso on March 05, 2004, 10:43:00 AM
Greg, you're a sick man. Think you need to say a prayer. :grin:
Any policy that has Ted Byfield on the same side as many Rastafarians can fairly be said to have generated a consensus.
-- Ottawa Citizen August 28, 1997
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2004, 03:10:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2004, 06:58:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-03-06 00:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"20 pages not bad!!!"
Yep, 20 pages. thats how long it took to take a serious debate into a comical parody of itself.
What a topic!
Post by: animals all of us on June 04, 2004, 01:43:00 AM
Great Postings. Therion, didn't you post something really funny about Eclesiastes awhile back. I can't find it, was looking for it.
Post by: Anonymous on June 04, 2004, 10:01:00 AM
Oh those demonic chemical reactions must be stopped.
Just kidding I assume there is some other definition of the word I am missing. Or at least I hope there is.
Post by: LeighBright on June 04, 2004, 11:52:00 PM
I thought you people were talking about the movie and I never noticed how long it got or even bothered to read it.
But wow! It was really interesting for 17 or 18 pages before it dwindled into a brief "I just" thread.
So you want "proof" Greg? Well gee - let's see what I can remember from 20 freaking pages?!!
The flood debate went on for awhile - the only thing I can add to this is that show - with Leonard Lemoy, 'In Search Of.' They found the Ark in Turkey on the mountain the Bible says it came to rest on: Mt. Ararat (probably spelled wrong by me) and they even got a piece of wood and tested it for age - and it's old :lol: - seriously though, it's old enough to qualify.
Okay - what else? OH! Josephus. He's an historian who lived in the olden days - he was an official Roman historian and he has statements from the Governors and (mayors and - whatever the Roman leaders of provinces and what-not were called) - that are mentioned in the Bible - discussing Jesus and his followers and his crucifixion - and even some time after said event. Go to the library and get the book. I believe I have the publication info. in a box upstairs if you need more. But that's authentic people who lived, who can be verified, etc. That's why they say the Bible can be used as an historical document, because where we say June 4, 2004 - they say, Joe Blow in the town of One in the county of Two in the state of three in the country of four - only they name the people who oversee those regions - which gives you a chain of evidence and a reality of authenticity and political/historical documentation. Get the book from the library - you'll see your "evidence" - at least for matching what the Bible says to what documented history says.
And what else? Oh! The Dead Sea Scrolls - also tested - also old enough and authenticated by multiple reknown archeaologists (spelling?) I could have sworn the Biblical A. Review and Time or Newsweek or somebody like that both did articles on the Scrolls - as well as the burial box they found recently. But the Scrolls are authentic - and they match the book of - Isaiah, I believe - exactly.
And then there's Biblical prophecy that's being fulfilled right now in the news - but, I digress.
I guess what it comes down to, Greg is that it really is your own personal quest. I certainly don't want to debate with you :lol: but - aren't you in Florida? I just mentioned a ministry in St. Pete tonight. Godsnews .com or org or net I don't know but they could debate you intelligently. I bet they'd at least challenge you intellectually.
Well - that's my two cents. You wanted "proof" and I think Josephus is more along the lines of what you're looking for evidence man! Happy hunting!
Oh - and Scott David was it? Will you e-mail me? I'd like to chat with you!
Post by: Triumvirate on June 05, 2004, 02:20:00 AM
http://www2.bumfights.com/indecline/ (http://www2.bumfights.com/indecline/)
_________________
DISCLAIMER - All people places and things in the above post are ficticious. Any resemblance to persons or things real or otherwise are purely coincidental.[ This Message was edited by: Triumvirate on 2004-06-04 23:22 ]
Post by: Anonymous on June 05, 2004, 09:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-06-04 23:20:00, Triumvirate wrote:
"BUMFIGHTS...those 2 dirty hobos 5 posts back...thats bumfights right? they go around and pay homeless winos to fight and film it....thats fucking hilarious ahh heghe'
http://www2.bumfights.com/indecline/ (http://www2.bumfights.com/indecline/)
You are the bum on the right, correct?
Post by: Triumvirate on June 05, 2004, 03:59:00 PM
_________________
Entire, complete serenity
Injected intravenously
Transgression euphoric bliss divine
Initiate a timeless stain of mind
Blood will steralize, In fire baptised[ This Message was edited by: Triumvirate on 2004-06-05 12:59 ]
Post by: GregFL on June 07, 2004, 10:57:00 PM
The Show on TV with Mr Spock discussing Noah's Ark... wrong. Not evidence of the Ark at all. One is wise to view these type tv shows as entertainment and research further otherwise you may end up believing in supernatural Bigfoot, alien autospsies ,the moon landing is fabricated and a myriad of other nonsense.
The Dead sea scrolls contradict the bible. In fact, the scrolls provide evidence the Noahs ark fable predates the Bible and is part of an older religion that was, ahem...borrowed by Christianity. Still no evidence Jesus lived contained within them as they predate his life.
Care to go into deeper discussion on these three points you brought up?
And just as a point, I don't ask for proof of anything, just evidence so we can discuss it.
Post by: Anonymous on June 22, 2004, 07:20:00 PM
I think you might enjoy some of the books and materials available here.
http://store.levitt.com/cgi-bin/perlsho ... =231391260 (http://store.levitt.com/cgi-bin/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=books.html&ORDER_ID=231391260)
http://www.lamblion.com/Web10-03.php (http://www.lamblion.com/Web10-03.php)
You also might enjoy these sites:
http://www.ccmbuzz.com/modules.php?name ... wforum&f=5 (http://www.ccmbuzz.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=5)
http://www.jeremiahproject.com/newworld ... der03.html (http://www.jeremiahproject.com/newworldorder/nworder03.html)
I agree with you about The Passion. It was extreamly powerful and thought provoking.
Post by: Anonymous on June 25, 2004, 12:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-06-07 19:57:00, GregFL wrote:
"Leigh, sorry to burst your bubble but the Josephine writings are proven frauds, that is, the writings that mention Jesus. They are inserted text.
The Show on TV with Mr Spock discussing Noah's Ark... wrong. Not evidence of the Ark at all. One is wise to view these type tv shows as entertainment and research further otherwise you may end up believing in supernatural Bigfoot, alien autospsies ,the moon landing is fabricated and a myriad of other nonsense.
The Dead sea scrolls contradict the bible. In fact, the scrolls provide evidence the Noahs ark fable predates the Bible and is part of an older religion that was, ahem...borrowed by Christianity. Still no evidence Jesus lived contained within them as they predate his life.
Care to go into deeper discussion on these three points you brought up?
And just as a point, I don't ask for proof of anything, just evidence so we can discuss it.
"
Actually most societies of that time were built around water supplies(for obvious reasons)and almost all have similar flood stories. So Noahs Arc is in no way original or the first of its kind.
Interestingly I was first told this by a priest. Go figure.
Post by: Scarstruck on July 01, 2004, 05:44:00 AM
The flood tale comes from the ancient Sumerians..the oldest civillization we know ...if I remember correctly..
Have read many many books on Theology, Theosophy, and cults...in fact I did almost nothing but study for 2 years..I guess I was looking for God..
I realized at 11 years old that Xtianity has too many holes in it...I havent believed in that religion since I was a small child and then only because I was brought up forced to go to church