Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Paul St. John

Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56]
Feed Your Head / Universal Concepts
« on: July 22, 2003, 01:11:00 AM »
Hey, this is something that I have written recently.
 It is very much a rough draft,
 so I apologise for any spelling and grammatical errors, etc..


Paul St. John


  By Paul St. John


I can  make no promises as to what you will take away away with you from reading this book.  There ia an abundance of valuable information, herein..  It may not all be completely right.  That said,  I leave it you to extract as much value from it as you can and/or wish.  There is at least a chance that this book will make you do a real lot of thinking.  You may find that you like it a real lot.  There is even the chance that it will change the way you view everything and maybe even your whole life.  The more you read this book.  The more you will take out of it.  Enjoy the Adventure and Happy Reading!

-Paul St. John

 Page One:  The Fragmented World

I have an idea about this other place, where things, are rational,
simple, and real. We are certainly all there all the time, whther we know
know it, or not. That is the reason that where we are has repercussions, because  
the dynamics of this other place work in it. Anyway, I have realized part of what keeps us out
of it, or keeps us from percieving it. It is the fragmentation of our
minds. We never see all things at all times. This is because, we act
differently in different situations, and with different people, and it s
as though we honor one portion of existence, and let the rest fall away, as though it
does not exist.

Basically, this fragmentation is organization, which is a good thing,
but used based upon the illusionary dynamics of the the fragmented world. It seems right.
 It seems relevant. Of course, this makes sense. what ensures
life in a fragmented world is death from a broad and universal perspective. The particular
idea behind the fragmentation is that this goes here, and that goes there,
when in reality everything goes everywhere, before anything can go anywhere.

Page Two: Consciousness--Upping the Stakes of Existence

I believe that all animals work perfectly according to their nature
as well as all objects. They simply cannot help, but to. I think that  our
evolution depends on our finding out what they already know.

They have it and we don' t. Why?... because we are conscious and
they are not. Consciousness is extremely hard to use, and so we can make
many mistakes. Consciousness is the very thing that is holding
us from there right now.

So what is it s purpose?  Consciousness is a great thing. You see,
I beleive that all the world is great; great beyond compare. The animals
are this greatness. They know it. They understand it, but when we finally
get there we get to know that we know it; we get to understand that we
understand it. We can appreciate what we are. We can acknowledge our own greatness.

 It s like we leave the world of
greatness, and adopt this thing called consciousness, which often seems
to contradict it, and then we pull our consciousness up into it, and we
know exactly what the battle was for. It becomes like a looking glass into
our own nature. All the hard work was worth it, as it always is

Page Three:  Consciousness--Upping the Stakes of Existence Two

Cosciousness make us smarter then other animals, from the perception
of those with consciousness, which is all that is really relavant to
us of course. However, on adopting consciousness we can lose sight
of something that all animals have an innate knowledge. It takes time
for us to adopt this into our consciousness. Before we can understand this
again, while being conscious, we must completely understand the purpose of
consciousness. Many people wiil try to use it to seperate themselves
from the animals. This is a mistake. Consciousness already has
seperated us from the animals.

It s a gift. It s a truly great thing.
It s conceptualization of our own nature, and to a human being, who
has known it, it is the difference between life, and death.

Page Four: God is Out of a Job

I do not beleive that there is a god. My proof rests in the fact
that there was never proof that there is one, but my purpose in this page
is to write about if there was a God just to catch a glimpse at another

Let s say that there is a god. I say that he is out of a job.

I have a magical formula that brings me to this conclusion.

Though it certainly doesn t seem to be magical for everyone.

It s really quite simple.

" A rock is a rock."

That s it. I don t know too many people willing to deny that, and that proves
it to me. A rock cannot help, but to be a rock. It doesn t need to be
told how to be a rock. It doesn t need lessons to be a rock. It doesn t need to
be forced to be a rock. It just is. A man is just a man. How could he
possibly need help in being a man if he is a man, and so god cannot serve
a purpose. If he is a god, then he is seperate from me, and has nothing
to do with me.


"A friend is someone who lets you have total freedom to be yourself."

"Expose yourself to your deepest fears; after that, fear has no power,
and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free."

"We're like actors, turned lose in the world in search of a phantom,
endlessy searching fr a shadow of our half formed reality. When other
demand we become the people that they want us to be, they force us
to destroy the person that we really are. It's a subtle kind of murde.
The most loving parents and relatives commit this murder with smiles on
their faces."

Page Six: Shucking Limitting Views of Responsibility

Beating yourself up for your mistakes is senseless, and self-
defeating. If  stuck in between two walls, insulting yourself will
not help me get out, though in the world of the psyche, it will cause them
to close in more.

You must accept the extent to which you are out
of control, or lacking responsibility, before you can change it at all.

"Let yourself go with disease, be with it, keep company with it - this is the way to be rid of it."
- Bruce Lee

Page Six: Valuable Quotes From Nietzsche

"Plato was a bore."

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

"The last Christain died on a cross."

"The thousand mysteries around us would not trouble, but interest us,
if only we had cheerful, healthy hearts.

"The christain resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world
ugly and bad."

"For others do I wait......for higher ones, stronger ones, more triumphant ones,
merrier ones, for such are built squarely in body and soul: Laughing
lions must come."

"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual."

"In Christianity, neither morality or religion come into contact with
reality at any point."

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."

"Insanity is the exception in individuals. In groups, parties, people, and times,
it is the rule."

"Life always gets harder towards the summit-the cold increases, the responsibilty

"The better the state is established, the fainter is humanity."

"I live in my own place, have never cpoied nobody even half, and at
any Master who lacks the grace to laugh at himself, I laugh."

"Is not life, a hundred times too short, for us to bore ourselves."

"I would believe only in a god who can dance."  

Page Seven: Secrets of the True Master

The true master has a love for life of such magnitude,
that he d be willing to die for it in an instant.

-more then being a conscious decision on his part,
he has found a way to make it a part of his being.

Page Eight: EGO

Ego is the self.

Reality can only be experienced, through the ego.

In the this civilization, these two simple statements each hold a universe of meaning,
and application.

Emotionalism retards the ego.

The ego is not it s emotionalism.

The ego is only at it it s best truest form when entirely ungrappled, and

The ego is only the ego..period.

Where there is an acceptance of what is known, and what is not known,
and a will to go on, there is a living brain, and a life-oriented human being.

Life is fluidity verses stagnation.

Page Nine: The Inherent Value of Irrationality

Every irrationality holds a world of knowlegde.

Irrationality is an opportunity.

Irrationalities  hold the potentail of great strength.

If you declare war on your irrationalities, linearly, then you only declare war on yourself.

Declaring war on irrationalities must be conceptual.

Declaring war on irrationality also make them stronger, and holds them in place.

Every irrationality is the potentail of a treasue chest, as it holds a repressed area of yourself.

Declaring war on irrationality, can be like an overview objective, but thought must
be involved.

A mystery is something that is unknown.

If you consider yourself to know all, you will no longer learn.

Own your irrationalities, and they can be learned from.

By allowing our irrationalities to be, and accepting that they are a part of us,
we can find that they actually are not.

Page Ten: SPIRIT

A spirit s worth a million words.

A spirit s worth a million philosophical understandings.

Spirit can become like a furnace that burns off waste, and mysticisms(false ideas)

Anybody can learn a million terms, or even role play.

Spirit is like fire!

The spirit emanates from the self.

The self is the overall person.

The good-spirited self feels right.

It doesn t just look good on paper.

It is based in nothing external.

It is the overall essence of the self.  

Page Elleven: Ideas on Human Abberation

Your thinking mind is a rational environment

The more correct knowledge, and experience that it obtains,

the more of an expanse that it can cover with rationality.

Human abberation is irrational.

Human aberration is false.

It is emotionally based.

IF the mind sees it s abberations, they will disperse.

There is no evidence for them.

They are unsupported.

They are towers with no foundation.

Honor thy mind,

and embrace thy Aberations!

Page Twelve: Like Begets Like

Asserting Identity

We are born.

We are individuals.

The world we are born into is not designed for individuals.

From the view of the world, order is maintained.

From the view of the indivisdual, individuality is attacked.

The individual attempts to recreate it s individuality.

The individual, now has a false form of individuality.

The idvidual, now has an illusion of self, rather then relation with self.

The individual now becomes a part of the world that attacked it.  

Page Thirteen: How to Free Your Mind of Contradictions

A contradiction is a LOGICAL INCONGRUITY.

This is it s definition.

If you take these forces that you refer to as contradicting one another

And you..

accept your knowledge of them as a part of your overall knowledge base

and then...

Take the next logical/rational step..

and integrate your complete knowledge base into your logic..

They will no longer be viewed as contradictory by you.

Have Fun!!

Page Fourteen: Ideas on Human Nature

The average person, even the intelligent, may often have bad things to say when it come to human nature.

But, this is actually quite funny!

If man was not by nature good, where the hell could he even come up with
the idea, that human nature is no good?

If a man holds the idea that he is by nature bad, then how
can he judge what is good.

It is so based in nothing.

The very idea that man is by nature bad, is like this ethereal, substanceless blob, that works it s way down dissolving what is of substance,and what is real.

It can only dissolve what has already been made...

Because it is most surely based in nothing and so it can only create the illusion of being real,

with the resouces of what really is.

Many don t see it.

This is a result of honorring illusions as reality.

Page Fifteen: Consciousness

Ya, know, the mind is a perfectly organised systen without consciousness,
and it is perfectly in sync with all of the natural world.

Cosciousness is kinda like this "chip", that you put into an already
perfectly functioning circuit, and it tunes it into smoething totally different.

It turns it into a circuit that can conceptualise itself.

That then gives ot the power to break free from it s current nature, and
see it s self in relation to all else.

It turns the circuit into it s own master.

It gives it life.

I almost see it as kind of like a quartz crystal just stuck right into the

Now, when the thoughts flow, they refract.. Thye become geometrical and dimensional,
and create open space.

The fact of the matter is that unlike many other things , our consciousness,
is not insured by nature.

We have built it .. It is our creation, and so it is up to use to protect it.

We are creators, and we have created ourselves.

We are the thorns in nature s ass.

We are the one s who made this great leap.

We are heros everyday of life.

We are always at battle, to hold onto and better our creation.

Once consciousness is instilled, the entire brain chemistry changes.

It leaves nature s idea of what is the optimal brain chemistyr, and creates
a chemsirty that suits consciousness. It ffels good.

Consciousness spreads it s influence over the whole brain.

This is why psychological drugs never work

.. because it alters our brain chemistry, thereby seperating our brain form
our consciousness.

It may make a person feel good, but the consciousness of the person can only
be a witness to the event, which can only make it more perplexed.

Religion is a map.. It is a map written for those who want to go home to
their bicameral nature.

It is correct that all irrationality is a vestige or remnant of the pre-conscious mind.

Organised religion , and manipulating for profit, I would have to think is a tradition that
has been passed down since the beginning of conscious man.

I love nature.

I like camping, hiking, waking up to the sound of a river, colorful fall
landscapes.. I like it all..

.. and I also know, that if I were not conscious, I could not appreciate it.

In all honesty, and humor, I would be it s bitch.

Nature looks so alive to me, and for that I have always loved it, but if I were
not conscious, I could never appreciate it s life.

It s our consciousness that gives things meaning and purpose and value.

It is only our consciousness.

Page Sixteen: What Ghandi Knew

Ghandis is alive, and so people have a (mental idea) about him,

and a (feeling) that relfetcs the idea.

Ghandi s death cannot erase his existance.. and certainly not so
for the integral reality componenent of consciousness.

and so with his death, a vacuum would have been  formed....  ( a mytery)

Resultantly, a (feeling) swells up in the individual.

As soon as the individuals allow this (feeling) to be coneptualised
by their mind ..[this is self-responsibility]

a larger (idea of true) is formed.

This is the place where the emotions give to the mind what was previously

Before Ghandi was a hero.

Now Ghandi could ve been any one of us.

Now people will act.

This the reason Ghandi knew he would not be killed.

The wordl was on his side, as we are all humans.

Page Seventeen: Understanding Valid Ideas

What happens when ideas are misunderstood?

 All ideas spread, but what happens when they are misunderstood.

I was sixteen when I realised the amount of brilliant ideas that had
been told me growing up,
created by brilliant people.

.. but that these ideas were fed to me, by people who had no idea what they meant.

They had nothing to connect them too.

That s the reasoon that full integration is essentail.

One of the greatesst ways to bring this about, is through
communication, and debate where everybody wins.

Page Eighteen: The Sideways World

The value-producers, who are knowlegeable, will refer to this world
as a "backwards world".

The mystics, too, will refer to it as a "backwards world".

They share that much in common.

The reasoning behind their accusations, are however, opposing.

The world to me, does not seem to be working in reverse,
but rather sideways.

Nobody stands up straight ...

or owns up to their own existence.

Everybody knows who they are before what they are.

People are so weighed down, with their ideas of themselves,
that they cannot even accept themselves.

Every motion has to have a purpose.

Before the earth could orbit, it had to be a rock.

It s like a big drama, that everybody loves to play, cause nobody likes
the idea of just being human.

Nobody wants to be human.

anything... but what they are.

Each wants to define themselves, before identify themselves.

In order for this drama to exist, it must have conflict.

There must appear to be a war or a slovable problem, to keep people

While you are praising the value-producers, and despising the mystics,
you may want to take this into account..

that value-producers have funded every mystical, or cheating act
that ever existed.

This is a fact.


A game cannot exist unless both sides play along.

If you re alive, you may as well learn.

I offer these ideas as food for thought.

Page Nineteen: Honorring Feelings and Thoughts as Independent Entities

Thought, and feeling are independent entities.

Now, when one wants to whore itself out to the other....

We witness the very essence of  irrationality.

The idea that "What is, is", can be "compromised", "alruistically",
with one taking on the "individual responsiblity" of the other,
based on the idea " that the ends can justify the means"

You might wanna read that again.. That s the idea behind what causes almost all of the
problems in the world!

So the mind and the emotions must let eachother do their own job.

On your part, this requires "Discipline, thought, and control."

Now, strong emotions such as fear, which pertains directly to our survival, will become like a fire inside.

But that s not only okay, but good.

Your ego will expand to accomodate this fire.

You may notice this upon reflection.

At the time you may be too busy.

"Profit comes from what is there,
Usefulness comes from what is not."

-Lao Tzu

When the Feelings=Feelings, the Mind=the Mind, and Mystery=Mystery.....

The Feelings, allowed to be, will always propel the Mind into the Mystery,
making that Mystery part of the Mind.

Page Twenty: Heroic Song for Children

Farewell God,
Farewell Bible,
Hello reality,
You have always been a part of me,
Farewell scriptures,
you mind constrictors,

Hello God,
Hello Bible,
Thank you to you,
for becoming so idle,
Hello Song,
Hello silence,
I think it bes real good,
to have a mind free of violence,

Tell the truth,
and we will all listen to you,
Do good unto fellow man,
is a good thing to do,
Let them know,
Don t hide behind a show,
Laugh out Loud,
Keep your head above the crowd,

I saw some truth ,
and I wanna give it to you,
You have nothing to lose,
and I really do love you,

Peace is an inner-state,
and we create our own fate,
We are really great people ,
when ourselves we don t negate,
The world is a good place,
and you can be happy,
Yes, there are a lot of things,
that we can call crappy,
but if you give in to them,
you can become worse then,
But if realise they are wrong,
and march to your own song,
Happiness, ever-long!

Yes, I hope you hear me,
cause I wanna see ya cheery,
and I hope ya learn a lot,
cause there s so much more then what you got,
Let s just keep on going,
me, and you too as well,
and if you start to look around,
this trip is funny as hell.

Farewell God,
and your holy bible,
we been carrying you so long,
that we got real idle,
Peace out with these constraints,
and these silly ideas of faith,
cause we see a sad face,
you know I wish I could erase..

So no more of this bullshit,
as I really don t think we need it,
Have some fun on me,
feel free to blame it on me,
march into your own glory,
and then we ll all see,

and if you think I m wasting your time,
then just don t listen to my rhyme,
I really don t care what ya do,
"now, tell me,
doesn t that sound nice to you"

and if you re having a good time,
then you re doing something right,
and you re living in your time,
then matter not, day or night,

so, let s just go on all,
nice to meet ya,
me name Paul,
and don t worry if you fall,
Just don t worry at all!  

Page Twenty One: Upper- Lower

When the upper levels and lower levels of your psyche meet..

You re looking pretty darn good..

Thye have to see one another

The top levels pof your psyche...

need to know what you already know..


Yep.. You already know.. You know, or you could not be here...

But you gotta get your brain to know that you know..

Trust your body.. Trust your core

Page Twenty Two: Synergy

1 Synergy can only be experienced through the ego
or self

2 The clearest, most open-ended path accepts, allows, and embraces the mystery , mind, and feelings

3 Synergy exists independently of an unsynergised environment.

Page Twenty Three: OSUS ( Operating System United States)

In OSUS, a single man assumes the role of True.

In oSUS, the rest of us can only assume True,
in our own right.

A subjective "own right" deemed by outdated ideas.

Yes, this is a democratic republic.

..which means we get to vote who will assume
the role of True, for all.

If we are one enough to vote for who will be our True,

then are we not True enough to be our own True?

"President" is an idea!

We collectively hold to this idea.

But we are not this idea!

Holding to ideas destroys synergy!

Man has the option to destroy the synergy that is
his birthright!

Synergy is always available!

Synergy is an option, however.

The synergy of universal existence, will not break
down self-imposed walls.

Only humans have the capability to create these walls.

The US governmental structure is not based on synergy, but rather a step taken towards synergy long ago.

The infrastucture only allows synergy within it s walls.

It stands as seperate fron the universe.

It stand as seperate from us.

It is a false idea(a delusion) that exists only in our minds!

With true synergy, these problems would not exist!

Our governmental system is an attempt to resist synergy.

We are held hostage by our own idea.

We feed what is true to ourselves to what is false, or made up!

The govt has synergy with us in one way for sure.


Thanks To

Ike Locust, and OS012
Frank Wallace, and Neo-Tech

so, let s just go on all,
nice to meet ya,
me name Paul,
and don t worry if you fall,
Just don t worry at all!

New Info / In my closet and under my bed.. ;-)
« on: July 15, 2003, 07:22:00 PM »



May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00



...very cool quote!

Paul St. John

Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 22, 2003, 11:47:00 AM »

Here is an actual
exerpt from the findings:

"In short, our Illinois team members found the Elan program abhorrent to all accepted standards of child
care. The treatment model seems predicated on suspension of each child's liberties; they become
automations who conform to acceptable behavior patterns after they find it hopeless to resist the will of
their 'masters'."

Wow.  This was a very honest and accurate observation, though it was apparently not heard by the right people.

I love the way that they explained that... so down to the heart fo the matter.

Paul St. John

I can only imagine the shit that you have seen.

Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 22, 2003, 11:27:00 AM »
I am speechless..absolutley nightmarish.

They use tell us the stories of the old days,
when I was there.

They used the stories to foister guilt on us,
and make us feel that we were somehow privelaged from time to time.

The status member s did this.. not the counselours.

But I never heard suach stories as where he locked the people in that small area, and the repeated rapings of women, and such.

nor of having guys beat the shit out of girl s in boxing rings.

have no words...

Paul St. John

Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 21, 2003, 06:01:00 AM »
On 2003-06-21 01:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

way thru,, and in my time,,when you didnt act as if,, they beat you and humilated you until u did.. br>

During the time period in which I went to Daytop, there was no beating at all..just a lot of humiliation, and psychic and emotional beatings.

My whole time there,I never saw a single physical confrontation.  It was strongly forbidden, and nyone involved in any of any type, would be immediately arrested.

if you put a sane man in an asylum,, eventually he will act just like the rest :silly:

Yeah.. I hear ya.  For me, it was very subversive.  I would notice later on down the road that I had taken on behaviors that I hadn t even noticed, whil I was busy trying to fend off others..


Paul St.John

Elan School / Positive Peer Pressure
« on: June 13, 2003, 02:23:00 AM »
This very ideal supports the problem.

Any child who was crushed into doing drugs beyond their own will, theough peer pressure but is now
"positively peer pressured", intpo doing the "right" thing, has only traded vices.

Peer Pressure, itself is the enemy ..

Not.. It s flavor.

It s a wise decision to do this though from the point of view of a dishonest busines man as, now, at leat temporarily, to any person who sees this child before and after and is only interested in certain criteria.. if the child does drugs.. hw he speaks to aduls.. if heor she is a good toilet bowl scrubber, this child is a walking billboard..

A walikng bilboard.. especailly with all the terms and idea force fed into these kid s minds..

and of course a lot of people will notice simply th poesitives of being off drugs and such as opposed to the fact that the kid has lost their individuality cause generally a lot people wanna believe the good side of things and see what they want to see.

Yep.. Those dishonest business man love that in people, and so they create billboards out of children and send em out into the world, hoping to pull in more suckers, and create more builboards..


Paul St. John

Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 13, 2003, 02:14:00 AM »
It s based on two parts each which support the other.

First, approval and acceptance is witheld from the victim.

This creates a desperate, desire, or wanting apporoval within the child over a period of time.
( different kids, different time variables)

Being treated as no good and unworthy, the child will begin to hunger for approval, and proof of self-worth( even artificail) The child has officailly been broken.


Now, Comes the second dynamic.. CONTROL

Now, the child has become dependent upon appproval, and approval, the child will seek it, wherever he or she can... and there only really is opne place.. in the environemnt, which is the group.

Now, the peer pressure has been setup as a controlling agent.

Of course, the person could find what they seek within themselves, but it is nearly impossible within such an environment, if possible at all.

Paul St. John

Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 13, 2003, 02:06:00 AM »
The program was designed and set up in such a way as that one of the primary long-term objectives was that the child surrened their will to the "Great and Mighty" Counselors. (MOST ESPECAILLY the counselours of their case file)
This was brought about in numerous ways, which could is probably beyond sufficient to be a topic all on it s own.  So with time, all those who gave in to the program, and where I went, there were very many set the counslor up as an almost omniscient idol in their minds.

Now, in the example where the counselor hit into the car and then left, he laughed it off a bit.  The students respondent as good clones in training would and laughed it off with him.  At that point, the students not onlt sub-consciously accept this ow as okay, but alos associate such activities with humor.  There were a lot of generally honest children, who would have bever responded this way beofre, but as many know what I mea, to challenge the counselour is to challenge the whole group, and so now they have accepted it as okay and even funny.
( BTW, the counselour, supported by group thing is a perfect example of how they trick the childerns mind.. that is the very essence of the tough love model and it is actually quite brilliant. I will cover that n my next post)

Okay so now the children have a new reaction the idea of the dishonesty of hitting a car and taking off.. Now it is okay and funny.

What the big probelm with this other then destroying the moral core of children.  It contitues fraud.  We llive in a society basde on free enterprise.  These rehab centers operate within the ideals of free enterprise.  They are paid by individuals for a product or service which is their ability above and beyond average to "fix" their children.... to make them more honest.. more moral.... more healthy.. "better memebers of society"

Right here, the opposit was accomplished.

Now, if brough your car into a garage to get the it repainted cause it had a few slight scratches, but when you came to get it not only were the scratches still,(though coverred in some prett words, and programmed, but also there were numerous new scratches, you would be entitled by law to get your money back, get compensation, and most likly after a few cases they would be out of business.

To be honest with you, I do not think that this counselor was even aware of what he was doing half of the

But large amounts of moey are being fed to have something fixed.. the most preciouse commodity of them all.. young human being, and they are returned worse off.. not one or two cases, but an uncountable number.

In the example with the lying to get extra government funding.  They are now teaching the childred to cheat tax-payers,... and for what cause? that kids in a place who don t wanna be there, can eat shit they don t even wanna

Now, they are still stealing form their parents, but now they have an athority telling them that it is okay.

The last example was about the treatment of those whom told their paren t s what went on in there.

Now, here, parents are unknowingly paying to have a wedge driven between them and their kids.  The fucked up thing about this is that the reason many of their parents send these kids to these places is to " have their child back", which they are assured by counselors will happen under their care.  They market a front.. They do at least train the children to pretend, that their parent s have them back.

They are lyers.

They are cheats.

They are theives.

.. and a truly great specimin of oprganised crime.

More on attcking the child about being honest with parents.

They get the child to renounce themselves, and to isolate from their own good reasoning.

Being hnest with family members, their mind s will now register as " manipualtind", and any time, they try to against their mind in this reguard, and reestablish honesty with family, the fear and humiliation cause by the other "Family",
will most likely stop them in their tracks.

This person will now have a world of problkems to deal with throughout life, that they wouldnt ve otherwise.  Many of these poeple when they start to feel like shit about being honest with their family and not knwo why, as the mind really does not wish us tto remember shit like that, will then start to ask thins such as " What s your with me?"

As soon as person asks something as that, they are often on their way down the slope into unhappiness, and an unhealthy mind state.

This is what they charge for..

Slow attempted murder

Open Free for All / Libertarianism defined
« on: June 12, 2003, 06:01:00 AM »
On 2003-06-07 13:30:00, JDavid wrote:

"Someone brought up Ayn Rand's Objectivism as an opposition to Anarchism today.  I thought I'd bring it on over here & paste it to show what became of it.  Below this paragraph is stuff which went on over there.  Objectivism stuff is in italics:

I disagree with a lot o f the poinst made here.  I will share my perspective ofr the sake of constructive discussion.  I ll put my stuff in bold

I just read your comparisons of Objectivism to Anarchism. The main point to look for in all those comparisons is the difference between the individual and the community. Objectivism separates the individual from the community. Anarchism submerges the individual into the community.

Under Objectivism, you only are to receive only when you can coerce, which can be a good trade or a threatening trade. Either way, it is limiting and unnecessary.

In Anarchism, everyone wants/needs it, so everyone creates it. Rather than put a price on it, everyone gets access to it (all of it). Beyond that, you can trade all you want as long as you aren't backing your trade with a threat. That's what submergence into the community is basically all about.

That is actually an extremely interesting perspective.  it took me a minute to see what you meant by that.  DEFINATELY food for thought!

I can spend a little time taking a stance against Rand. Rand is capitalist or capitalist apologist, by the way. Here we go with some Objectivism...

Regarding Rand being a capitalist apologist, just look what she says here: Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force.?

She is attaching individual rights to property rights which in effect applies a barrier between you and your community. Notice that such capitalist apologies do not ever give you a reason to separate yourself from your community in this fashion. Please don't tell me you want privacy and autonomy because my response will be "your community also wants you to have privacy and autonomy, lots of it".

Of course propery rights are certainly, a sub-category under individual rights.  I cannot imagine an argument against that.

That which you call your soul or spirit is your consciousness, and that which you call ?free will? is your mind?s freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom.

Consider that a capitalist's claim that your freedom does not extend beyond your freedom to think. Everything else can be considered freedom by permission, and trading = permission. Anarchists reject this limitation. Anarchists believe human freedom is unlimited in all aspects, materially, spiritually or otherwise with the one limit being:

I think that what Ayn Rand was pointing out is that all freedom begins in the mind.  All that you voluntarily do, has to first begin within your mind

 we are not free to impose or covertly coerce others, which capitalism DOES allow.

Capatitalism explicity rejects coercion and imposition of all types.  Perhaps, you can elaborate on how capitalists carry these activities out, covertly.

Man ? every man ? is an end in himself, not a means to the ends of others; he must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself; he must work for his rational self-interest, with the achievement of his own happiness as the highest moral purpose of his life.? Thus Objectivism rejects any form of altruism ? the claim that morality consists in living for others or for society.

This is a justification for greed. You work for your own self interests, but how are your self interests going to be satisfied if you reject altruism?

Can you state your reason that a person cannot carry out your their own self interest, while rejecting altruisms?

This leaves you with two choices: Either be a self-sufficient primitivist or practice coercion of other people, your employees for example.

There is a third option.  You can engage in mutual exchanges of values, voluntarily.  You trade your value for the value of another.

Anarchists realize altruism is much more beneficial to all than coercion. We treat trade as a secondary method, and we do not "coerce" in the form of a threat.

I don t understand the reason that you are attributing threats and cohersion to objectivism.  Objectism does not advocate these things, but again, explicitly rejects them

 We "coerce" only in the form of offering a trade which can be declined without the other party suffering a loss. All coercion in capitalism IS backed by a threat or a loss except for the party who "came out on top" in the deal.

 I am looking at a PC monitor right now.  I bought it with my money.  The people who sold it to me wanted my money and I wanted the monitor. Everybody came out on top, and nobody sufferred any losses.  This is the capatalistic model

 Altruism is the first priority for anarchism, trading is the secondary measure. Objectivism requires trade as the only method. Why limit yourself to trade/coercion? Just for the sake of greed?

Just so you can needlessly separate your "property" from your community when your community would respect your "possessions" to begin with?

More often then not, you re community will only respect your propery if you respect it.  The world is not a perfect place

 Respect for possessions can be found even in Objectivism: "no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others".

Ok so Objectivism says "no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others" and it says "Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights"

Think of this as a capitalist selling you rights protection in the form of government when it is not necessary if you'd just recognize altruism and extend your personal freedom beyond your capitalist-permitted (limited) freedom to think and trade.

Once they sell you "government rights protection", you open up a whole new can of worms which actually contradicts another Libertarian, Nozick and his Theory of Justice. It requires "Moral and justified appropriation through the mixing of labor and time with the Earth's resources." If you practice this WITH government rights protection, you are enabling artificial appropriation, which is neither justified nor moral!

I m not in complete agreement with Objectivism ideas on government either.  Most philosophies, I od think have theit limitations.

More of Objectivism's capitalist advocation: Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current ?mixed economy? notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth.

So Objectivism wants a government for the sole purpose of enabling you to trade your way into artificial appropriation of Earth's resources, which intrudes upon the survival of others. See what is happening in Objectivism? They do not want government to redistribute wealth, but they also do not want to permit a natural form of wealth distribution.

Objectivism outlaws (laws=force) almost all of what can be accomplished in anarchism.

Anarchism does not outlaw all which can be done in Objectivism; however, anarchism does disable offensive appropriation.


Elan School / Children Trained in General Dishonesty in Daytop
« on: June 12, 2003, 02:38:00 AM »
Three Quick Examples

They are small examples, but think about it.

Parents are sending their childredn to these places to better themselves.

This Program that I attended is government suported, and is of course still striving, less then an hour away from my home.

I was sent there by my school.

1. The kids at Daytop were told to count the kids who did not eat Daytop food, and as well, the kids who were absent and to put them down as having eaten, in order to get more government funding.

2. Kids were treated most harshly when they allowed parents to know of specific things that went on there.  After a child had done this, they would be broken down by the group so sufficiently, that it was sure to never happen again.  Telling the truth was pretty much always considerred manipulating.  Just as being rational was almost always considerred

3. One of our counselours was once leaving the program to go to another that was offerring more money.. The coordinators of the counselour s case group, planned a Met s game for us all to go to as a farewell gift to him.  We went to the game.. There was probably 20 of us there. ( all teens)
As we were leaving the game, the counselor crashed the Daytop van into a car behind him, damaging it.  He got out of there with his van full of children as quick as he could. He was actually my favorite counselour too.

They re small, but they are also obviouse and easy to point out, and not the reason that a parent would send a kid to such a place.

Paul St. John

Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56]