Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: heretik on November 06, 2010, 02:37:41 PM
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Hi, my name is "heretik" as many of you know (or suspect is DannyB II) because we both post from the same IP address. Well if I had known this would have created this much suspicion believe me I never would have typed one letter off our computers in this job trailer. To rectify this I will have my own lap top on Sunday 11/7 which means own IP but that does not mean necessarily I am out of jail, I could still be doubted.
That being said, I feel I owe the survivors here a profound apology for instigating or creating suspicion with the thread (Do Survivors Lie: Part II).
People, my sole purpose for this thread was to counter the thread Whooter had posted. To show that there were abused survivors out their (hiding their truth) but it was by "omission" not anything else. I personally have never heard any survivor (I don't know many) tell me their experience and it be filled with embellishments or lies, never. What I have encountered is a few (2) survivors tell me something different ("they told me nothing happened") then what went on in a certain program. They just did not want to talk about it. I have a friend right now that went to Elan (other then the one you think) it took her over 25 years to finally want to talk about her experience at Elan in detail. She would just say for so long, "oh it wasn't that bad" (I never pushed her to talk about her experience, either) "Bullshit", everything I have heard and read about that place tells me it was bad (abusive).
It just pissed me off when I read Whooters thread and I thought of her and others who don't say anything because they are ashamed or embarrassed to bring it up.
This is why I still believe it is important for these survivors who feel trapped inside themselves with their stories, to have a voice.
I am from Marathon House (I know went over here like a 500lbs anchor, straight to the bottom of the list) but that is where I went to. It was abusive but I think more in the actual Learning/Educational Dept. then anything else. I questioned my validity on this site and asked myself, "since I was not abused as many here that I did not fit in here"?? I believe I do and most of all I can lend support in so many ways.
Once again I sincerely apologize for my inability to articulate my true intentions for this thread initially and the confusion it caused.
Take care
I
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Interesting post.
I'm not one to accuse you of being anyone else but it is strange you post from the same IP. However, there are differences in your wording and other semantic patterns, not to mention greater coherence in general. How does your colleague feel about you posting here?
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People, my sole purpose for this thread was to counter the thread Whooter had posted. To show that there were abused survivors out their (hiding their truth) but it was by "omission" not anything else. I personally have never heard any survivor (I don't know many) tell me their experience and it be filled with embellishments or lies, never.
Heritik that was your personal recollection. What I was posting were facts from fornits. My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention, to get revenge on the program they attended and for various other reasons. We have had many similar threads i.e. "Why do programs lie" etc. After I proved my point the thread was broken up and placed in the Offa section.
Just a brief example,
here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:
First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385152#p385152)
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
There were many others who posted saying they were kidnapped when in fact they were taken to the program via an escort service.
Gonzotherapy concluded with:
Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.
Many people claimed I had a motive, but what is the motive to create threads like "Why do Programs lie", "Why does Whooter lie"?
Do you see what I mean? We are all just having a discussion on the issues of various topics.
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Whooter,
I just don't agree with you and this whole hypothesis your trying to put together here, it is not nearly as conclusive as you are trying to convey. You have to look at the intention/motivation of the poster. In all of the posts I have read so far I have not got the feeling that the poster was trying to mislead, lie, fabricate or embellish his/her posts to fool the reader. The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time. If anything they can be accused of is being passionate. I say, "so what to that".
Whooter you are trying to create smoke here, why I don't know. Only you know really. The bottom line here is you are out of line, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Parents, visitors and common readers will not be mislead by these comments, there is much more to the post then a few words (you disagree with).
I find little to debate on this subject.
Here is the question, "what difference does it make to you how they put their message out there, survivors? Why does this bother you so, are you speaking for a group of people or are you just picking at a bone out of resentment?
Is this nothing more then "tit for tat" ?
Just asking???
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Whooter, The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time.
..at the time. I agree with this. It felt like they were kidnapped. It felt like they were abused. It felt like they were tortured. It felt like they were brainwashed... etc. But many of these posters are home now and understand that they were not kidnapped. They have talked to other people in the program and are well versed on the use of escort services. So why continue to say they were kidnapped? Why continue to say they were abused in the cases where they were not but it felt like it at the time?
I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?
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whooter wrote;
"I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?"
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Really? Since when are you concerned for the anti program cause? Now who's embelishing his own case?
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whooter wrote;
"I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?"
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Really? Since when are you concerned for the anti program cause? Now who's embelishing his own case?
Many people think I am pro-program but I am actually a moderate. I understand that some programs are abusive and some are helpful (I don't take the extremists veiw that all programs are good or all are abusive).
I read stories here on fornits and think "Geesh how is anyone ever going to believe this kid, someone needs to talk to them on how to communicate with society". No one on fornits will help these kids out. They let them walk around telling people that they were kidnapped and held in isolation inside a gulag where they were brainwashed. I am sure people laugh behind their backs. So I am trying to help.
Non-ya, you get outside sometimes. If you told the nurse at the hospital, that you just went to, that you were kidnapped at a younger age and held inside a gulag for years while they tortured you and brainwashed you and systematically abused you. What do you think the nurse would say to you? She might say :"Did you call the FBI when you got out?... What did the police say?" .......
Why am I the only one who has contacts to people outside of fornits? This isnt normal speak, but people on fornits dont know this they think it is normal. But then they complain that they are viewed as druggie losers (this is not my perception, psy has mentioned this many times as a frustration to how many survivors are viewed) by the program and others. I might think the same thing if I didnt know better and just heard this vocabulary.
Why do people here protect this sort of behavior especially when credibility is key to getting people to come to action?
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Whooter, The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time.
..at the time. I agree with this. It felt like they were kidnapped. It felt like they were abused. It felt like they were tortured. It felt like they were brainwashed... etc. But many of these posters are home now and understand that they were not kidnapped. They have talked to other people in the program and are well versed on the use of escort services. So why continue to say they were kidnapped? Why continue to say they were abused in the cases where they were not but it felt like it at the time?
I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?
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Whooter, I am not going to debate this subject with you. I said my piece, I am a survivor and have close friends who are. How, why and when they decide to open up and share their abuse is none of your business, for you to come here and judge someone who has been abused is insane. Look at what you have reduced yourself to arguing about how abused victims should vocally share their stories, please tell me you are not this nuts.
Worry about what you are saying.
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Whooter, I am not going to debate this subject with you. I said my piece, I am a survivor and have close friends who are. How, why and when they decide to open up and share their abuse is none of your business, for you to come here and judge someone who has been abused is insane. Look at what you have reduced yourself to arguing about how abused victims should vocally share their stories, please tell me you are not this nuts.
Worry about what you are saying.
If you are telling the truth and truly do have friends that are survivors then why wouldnt you want their stories to be heard and believed? Why would you just let them wander off and tell some crazy story which will just end up discrediting themselves? Why not help them if you really care about them?
Heretik,
Lawyers coach their clients on what to say and how to say it. They dont want them to lie, but they want them to be credible so that their story will be believed. I dont know who you interact with on a daily basis, but I can tell you that the people I talk to everyday would discard the kidnapping gulag speak as high-school gibberish and find zero credibility in any of the story. Why let them make fools of themselves like that if you really care?
I suspect that you support this kind of language because you feel the stories are not credible on their own merit and therefore say "what the hell, load up the language and maybe someone will fall for the kidnapping story and you will get some attention". But, Heretik, I can tell you that you are giving your friends very bad advice because outside of fornits this sounds nutty and kidnapping is taken very seriously. We dont just throw those words around like we have all experienced it.
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What I was posting were facts from fornits. My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention
Link please. You have yet to ever produce an actual post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie. Until you do you haven't established anything.
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What I was posting were facts from fornits. My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention
Link please. You have yet to ever produce an actual post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie. Until you do you haven't established anything.
Thanks, Bruce, for the opportunity for all of us to take another look. If you want more I can post a few more but I didnt want to over do it, I just wanted to make the point.
Just a brief example,
here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:
First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385152#p385152)
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
There were many others who posted saying they were kidnapped when in fact they were taken to the program via an escort service.
Gonzotherapy concluded with:
Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.
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So what you're saying is, is that you have nothing. I'm glad you've finally accepted this.
I asked you for a link to a post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie.
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I asked you for a link to a post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie.
As long as you ask I guess it is okay to keep re-posting these: (Link is at the end as you asked)
here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:
First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385152#p385152)
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No Whooter, eventually it will be spamming. Please, continue to take the bait.
The fact is you cannot provide a single post from a survivor that was later proven to be a lie. You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.
Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:
A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.
Let me know what you come up with.
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A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics.
Let me know what you come up with.
Here is one in the first person about his experience claiming kids being abused when in fact they were faking it. I provided a link for you.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
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You're still coming up empty Whooter. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose, or if you truly don't understand.
All you're linking to is someone else making a vauge reference saying random non specific people are lying about non specific things.
What I'm looking for is a specific post from a specific survivor claiming abuse that you can prove to be a lie. Again, with literally thousands to chose from one I would think you could come up with at least one.
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Again, with literally thousands to chose from one I would think you could come up with at least one.
I dont think survivors lie as much as you think, Bruce, you should give them a little credit. I havent found thousands of them, but I have found a lot. Here is another one. Notice I provided a link:
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=65118#p65118)
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
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Now you're understanding. Great we can move forward.
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
This is not a lie Whooter. We discussed the kidnapping issue at length, and under your standards using the term 'kidnapped' is not a lie or even an exaggeration.
What else have you got?
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What else have you got?
There are alot more than you thought. I was surprised too at the responses we found. Like you mentioned earlier, Bruce, the forum is filled with them.
Gonzotherapy concluded with:
Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.
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Nope, now you're moving backward. You need to find specific posts from specific posters talking about events that happened to them, that were then later proven to be lies. Not generalizations Whooter, specific comments.
So far you're 0-2.
As for this:
There are alot more than you thought. I was surprised too at the responses we found. Like you mentioned earlier, Bruce, the forum is filled with them.
The forum is filled with what Whooter?
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Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.
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You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.
Actually, it's more like hundreds of thousands.
Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:
A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.
Let me know what you come up with.
He'll come up with statements of hyperbole and evaluative opinion like "kidnapping" (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=390#p385313)and present them as false statements of fact, and he'll quote people like Gonzotherapy completely out of context to the point where it more or less changes the meaning. He'll also likely quote some fake survivor's account of the program and how wonderful it is.
He undersands evaluative opinion, or should, (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=405#p385352) and yet continues to call kidnapping a lie. Nobody is arguing that
Here's what Whooter does: If I were to go on a long discussion about brainwashing and end it off with "i was raped" where it was clear I was referring to brainwashing by surrounding context, as has been done elsewhere on the forum, he would cut that one statement out of context, call it a lie (when it would be evaluative opinion), and parade it around the forum as an example of how survivors lie. Now we all know that his twisting of other people's words is completely intentional but that's impossible to prove as you'd have to show his state of mind.
Whooter wrote (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=405#p385352)
I see what you are trying to say, psy, But I don’t agree that kidnapping can just be a matter of opinion. If we accepted this then how would we standardize and understand description from survivors here?
The use of the word "Kidnapping" is not meant to deceive and you know it. In context it's clearly descriptive of an escort service, even to people reading here for the first time. It's opinion, not fact, it's a descriptive label, not a legal term. The fact that a person says "I was kidnapped and brought to a program" makes it VERY clear that this was done with parental consent and the word kidnapping refers to what you call an escort service. Which in my view, is less accurate term to describe what they do. "Escort" implies something voluntary. Likewise with "transport service" which makes it seem as if a package is being shipped. Big burly men bursting into a room at night, putting teens in restraints, dragging them out the door to the car and driving them across state lines sounds a lot more like kidnapping to me than it does "escorting" or "transporting".
They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing
First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie. "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.
Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually. Like Frederick and others noted. Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.
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Its all too indicative of the deceit of John David Reuben (whooter's real life rumored person hood) and /or the members of the Aspen Education Group that they use euphemisms to hide that they kidnap their victims, like this:
http://www.westpacific.us/?p=717 (http://www.westpacific.us/?p=717)
That's kidnap. Doesn't matter if the state turns a blind eye to it, or if you criminal pedophiles like Lon Woodbury and Rudy Bentz call it "escort."
The Nazis used euphemism to hide that they murdered their victims, like this:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/holocaust.htm (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/holocaust.htm)
That's murder. Doesn't matter that the state turned a blind eye to it, or that the criminal racists called it the "final solution."
You, and your ilk, John, kidnap, imprison, torture, and murder human beings.
That's no hyperbole, no exaggeration, no euphemism. Just the truth.
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Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14548&p=303137&hilit=i+was+kidnapped#p303137)
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.
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Still not a lie Whooter. You keep going backwards. Can't you find a single example of a lie told by a survivor claiming to be abused? You've gone and on about this for so long, I thought you had some sort of evidence to support your claim.
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They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing
First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie. "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.
Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually. Like Frederick and others noted. Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.
I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.
This music is torture, This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree. But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.
I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.
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I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.
Again, according to your own standards a term need not fit the legal definition in order to be used. It was only a few years ago you were up in arms over the statement that ASR is not a school due to the fact that they didnt hand out diplomas, credits aren't transferable, and they aren't considered a school by Mass or Federal DOE's. It didn't meet the legal definition of a school, despite that you stomped your feet and insisted because it met the dictionary's definition it was in fact a school. You refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what is found in a dictionary.
This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.
That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.
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They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing
First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie. "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.
Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually. Like Frederick and others noted. Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.
I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.
This music is torture, This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree. But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.
I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.
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Don't you hate when the escaping Jews of Nazi Germany said they were being murdered in gulags and killing centers? They weren't in gulags or killing centers. They were rehabilitative work facilities in the legal sense of Nazi Germany. They were being "final solution-ed" not murdered in the legal sense during Nazi Germany. Don't they do a disservice to real victims of murder when they describe their families as Nazi murder victims? After all, Jews weren't murdered int he legal sense during Nazi German. Saying otherwise is a disservice to the "real victims" of murder. Neither Jews nor teens are actual human beings in their respective corrupt countries and as such, we must accept their subhuman nature, and the right of exploitative organizations to kidnap and imprison them, as long as their is some possible rationale to say what's being done to them is legal.
(BTW individuals have been prosecuted or otherwise judicially censured for having their kids kidnapped, and "programs" (i.e. cultic torture prisons of ritual sexual abuse like Mount Bachelor Academy of the aspen education group cult) have been successfully sued for kidnapping and false imprisonment. And we're just gettin started.)
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This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.
That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.
Most people disagree with you, Bruce, Gonzotherapy feels otherwise:
I dont see this as misleading at all when Gonzo stated:
First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385152#p385152)
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I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.
Again, according to your own standards a term need not fit the legal definition in order to be used. It was only a few years ago you were up in arms over the statement that ASR is not a school due to the fact that they didnt hand out diplomas, credits aren't transferable, and they aren't considered a school by Mass or Federal DOE's. It didn't meet the legal definition of a school, despite that you stomped your feet and insisted because it met the dictionary's definition it was in fact a school. You refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what is found in a dictionary.
This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.
That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.
i disagree that the kidnapping of teens by Mitt Romeny 's Bain Capital 's Aspen Education Group Cult, et al, fails to meet the legal definition of kidnap. The problem is that the feds are disinterested in enforcing the law on behalf of teens. Similarly, lynching always met the definition of murder, but the feds were disinterested in enforcing the law on behalf of black. Teens = the new niggers.
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Well let's let Gonzo speak for himself instead of having you attempt to take his comments out of context.
While we're waiting on that I'm still waiting on a single post from you that backs up your claim. One single post Whooter, you've been going on about for years, can't you find just one proven lie?
A post from a survivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused, which was then later proven to be a lie.
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A post from a survivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused, which was then later proven to be a lie.
With all the posts going on here I can see that you probably missed a few of the examples that I posted. I will post it again for the people who have missed them.
BillS was a survivor who spent 4 years in Aspen Programs I believe he said he attended 2 of them. His experience was up and down. some good experiences and some bad. Here is his full post:
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
and this is an excerpt form the post:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Seems according to BillS that many kids faked being abused and being sick.
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You keep missing it somehow. Again, I'm not sure if you're just being obtuse and playing games, or if you really do have a disability.
The post you're refering to is discussing other random people and generalizing some as lying.
What I am looking for is a specific post from a surivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused and that was later proven to be a lie.
Example:
Whooter wrote:
I don't have a son
This was later proven to be a lie.
See what you can come up with.
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Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.
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I've said that. It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program. I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth. You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false. You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion. Things that by definition cannot be true or false. You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).
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Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.
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I've said that. It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program. I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth. You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false. You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion. Things that by definition cannot be true or false.
[/b] You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).
and he knows this. He completely understands that there is no intent by the posters to lie at all, so IMO there should not even have to be a warning.
This is a hypothesis by Whooter to tentatively make an assumption in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences. (weirdo) He can only rely on his experience or observation here on fornits he does not have the actual intimacy of being personally involved in a program. The 24/7 of being subjected to the mind altering behavioral models.
This is a game (although a intellectual one) but still a ruse from a jouster. It is almost like he was hired by fornits to supply a endless source of debatable topics.
This is not real which is why I refuse to debate him on this subject. :beat:
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I've said that. It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program. I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth. You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false. You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion. Things that by definition cannot be true or false. You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).
He completely understands that there is no intent by the posters to lie at all,......
I understand that I am pushing this through and if I continue to re-post I will be basically flooding the thread and that is not my intent. The kid that is telling the story that he was kidnapped in the middle of the night is expressing himself and kidnapped is carrying a lot of emotion with it. “I was kidnapped and forced to eat pig slop and held in isolation etc.”
This is all well and good and I understand the difference. But like Heretik and psy keep saying that I know very well this is what the kids mean and that they are not intentionally lying to everyone. I think that you know what message I am trying to send. How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story? If the child says that they were held down , beaten by a staff member and lost a tooth then yeah that would be abuse. But if the kid states here on fornits that they were abused at XYZ Program then we really don’t know whether this is along the same definition rules as kidnapping or not.
If we hold the words kidnapping and abuse side by side we can agree that they are very serious offenses which will result in prison terms if proven to be true. But if Kidnapping can be used in a non literal/legal sense here on fornits then so can abuse. If this is true then without the specifics the word “abuse” can mean anything from not having an ipod or the right styling iron to being punch unconscious by a staff member. It doesn’t mean the program did anything illegal or harmful. It could be an over emotional child speaking their mind.
So I guess my question to everyone is why encourage these survivors to place themselves in a position where they will not be believed? If someone says they were abused as a child how do we take this? Outside of fornits we would just be taken back and feel awful for this person. But on fornits this could mean anything because the boundaries of the definitions of words like abuse and kidnapping are being opened extremely wide to include events that are not punishable by law.
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So I guess my question to everyone is why encourage these survivors to place themselves in a position where they will not be believed? If someone says they were abused as a child how do we take this? Outside of fornits we would just be taken back and feel awful for this person. But on fornits this could mean anything because the boundaries of the definitions of words like abuse and kidnapping are being opened extremely wide to include events that are not punishable by law.
Then find a post from a survivor claiming abuse that wasn't actually abuse. You keep going on about making beds and washing dishes. Find a post from a survivor that says that was abuse.
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How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story?
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You listen to them, unless you are a heartless piece of trash. You have never come up with one example of a program survivor being proven to have lied about his/her abusive treatment. You just want to create an image of “troubled teens” as some kind of master manipulators, when reality is usually exactly the opposite. When they get out of these places they are in no condition to run the kind of con you are trying to portray. Why don’t you come clean about who you really are? Nobody is as heartless as you appear to be unless they are being paid to be.
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How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story?
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You listen to them, unless you are a heartless piece of trash.
and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?
Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?
If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.
Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.
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and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?
Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?
If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.
Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.
For the love of God man provide some evidence. Show us just one post made by a surivivor that was proven to be a lie. If you can't do that I think everyone would appreciate you just shutting up about it, because obviously you have nothing.
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and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?
Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?
If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.
Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.
For the love of God man provide some evidence. Show us just one post made by a surivivor that was proven to be a lie. If you can't do that I think everyone would appreciate you just shutting up about it, because obviously you have nothing.
This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here.
We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.
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They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing
First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie. "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.
Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually. Like Frederick and others noted. Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.
I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.
This music is torture, This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree. But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.
I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.
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Don't you hate when the escaping Jews of Nazi Germany said they were being murdered in gulags and killing centers? They weren't in gulags or killing centers. They were rehabilitative work facilities in the legal sense of Nazi Germany. They were being "final solution-ed" not murdered in the legal sense during Nazi Germany. Don't they do a disservice to real victims of murder when they describe their families as Nazi murder victims? After all, Jews weren't murdered int he legal sense during Nazi German. Saying otherwise is a disservice to the "real victims" of murder. Neither Jews nor teens are actual human beings in their respective corrupt countries and as such, we must accept their subhuman nature, and the right of exploitative organizations to kidnap and imprison them, as long as their is some possible rationale to say what's being done to them is legal.
(BTW individuals have been prosecuted or otherwise judicially censured for having their kids kidnapped, and "programs" (i.e. cultic torture prisons of ritual sexual abuse like Mount Bachelor Academy of the aspen education group cult) have been successfully sued for kidnapping and false imprisonment. And we're just gettin started.)
The main problem is that teens have no rights and no money of their own, and parents already freaked out by the changing world are being preyed upon by amoral opportunists. They tell the parent horror stories of what will become of their children without their "professional" help. Then they help them arrange the mortgage of their house to pay for it. We are indeed just getting started. I got out of the program in '86, and I just recently began to reflect on my experience and look around the internet for others with similar experiences. How many others have yet to do this? This industry has been going strong for over 30 years, there are ALOT of us out there.
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This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here. We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
You have asked me to produce facts (which I did) and I have communicated my thoughts the best that I can, yet you post that I continue my factory of lies without providing a single link or hint to what you are talking about.
You are trolling your own thread. Where did I lie? Start a new thread and put up some examples.
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.
Why do think posters need to have an effect or to have a connection with all these people and organizations to be able to post here? I never indicated that I thought I connected with new survivors or medical professionals. We are all just posters here posting from our individual experiences whether they be survivors, parents or professionals in the industry.
Why do you attack people who are trying to make a point which you feel you don’t agree with and call them immature and question their sincerity?
I accept you for who you are Heretik. I never criticized you for starting 3 threads on the same topic each one either attacking survivors or apologizing to them for being an ass.
Ya know here's the kicker,
I have been here for 5 years and I have seen many posters come and go so let me ask you something. Do you know anything about statistics? Maybe from highschool? College maybe?
What are the chances of 2 survivors ending up sharing the same trailer, the same IP address, in the middle of a corn field in Kansas and each of them having polar opposite opinions on the industry (one thinks the industry is great and the other thinks the industry is abusive, yet both of you lacking a middle ground argument) and still maintaining their friendship and not killing each other?
Just saying, Heretik.
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You have asked me to produce facts (which I did)
When was this? So far you've posted the same two or three links over and over again, none of which actually prove your point.
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This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here. We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
You have asked me to produce facts (which I did) and I have communicated my thoughts the best that I can, yet you post that I continue my factory of lies without providing a single link or hint to what you are talking about.
You are trolling your own thread. Where did I lie? Start a new thread and put up some examples.
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.
Why do think posters need to have an effect or to have a connection with all these people and organizations to be able to post here? I never indicated that I thought I connected with new survivors or medical professionals. We are all just posters here posting from our individual experiences whether they be survivors, parents or professionals in the industry.
Because the essence of this Web Site inspires a profound connection, most get that here regardless where they are coming from. You really don't nor care.
Why do you attack people who are trying to make a point which you feel you don’t agree with and call them immature and question their sincerity?
Please, stop with your usual petty comebacks, nobody is hurting your feelings. There old and worn out.
I accept you for who you are Heretik. I never criticized you for starting 3 threads on the same topic each one either attacking survivors or apologizing to them for being an ass.
Wow, you take my mistakes and exploit them, how original.
Ya know here's the kicker,
I have been here for 5 years and I have seen many posters come and go so let me ask you something. Do you know anything about statistics? Maybe from highschool? College maybe?
What are the chances of 2 survivors ending up sharing the same trailer, the same IP address, in the middle of a corn field in Kansas and each of them having polar opposite opinions on the industry (one thinks the industry is great and the other thinks the industry is abusive, yet both of you lacking a middle ground argument) and still maintaining their friendship and not killing each other?
Just saying, Heretik.
Whooter, you are immature or naive and/or malicious (read your response above). This is your toy (fornits) you enjoy playing with. I am not attacking you and please don't act surprised when your sincerity is questioned. As far as Kansas, I don't know, have not been there and I don't own a pair of red ruby shoes. I am in Oklahoma and the boss man is seldom around so you will just be dealing with me on occasion.
I have never been a fan of yours. Sorry did not mean to be so blunt.
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Whooter, you are immature or naive and/or malicious (read your response above). This is your toy (fornits) you enjoy playing with. I am not attacking you and please don't act surprised when your sincerity is questioned. As far as Kansas, I don't know, have not been there and I don't own a pair of red ruby shoes. I am in Oklahoma and the boss man is seldom around so you will just be dealing with me on occasion.
I have never been a fan of yours. Sorry did not mean to be so blunt.
Heretik, If you come onto a website/forum and start judging and attacking people then you should be prepared to get some of it back. Don’t get your feathers all ruffled just treat people the way you would like to be treated.
If you have noticed I never attack anyone unless they attack me or are rude to me first. I accept your views at face value and are not threatened by them. You should try to accept other peoples voice here even if they don’t align exactly with your own.
Everyones opinion is formed from experience or exposure to others and therefore is valid no matter how farfetched their views may sound to you. Maybe you are so far off into the fringe that a moderate point of view seems extreme to you, I really don’t know what your problem is, but try to listen and accept people more.
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You've got to be nuts, Whooter. Treat people how you want to be treated? You come here and lie outrageously and callously dismiss traumatic events in their lives. I guess that is how you want to be treated except most people have stronger fiber than that. You are the antithesis of everything you claim to value in your post to Heretik. I still can't get over how shamelessly you pull this "do as I say not as I do crap." You must be laughing your ass over there.
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So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
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So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do. I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.
Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs. We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
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So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do. I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.
Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs. We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
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The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster? That's your proof? An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students. You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter. If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.
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The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster? That's your proof?
Pretty much all of the survivors stories on fornits are anonymous.
An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students.
We have anonymous posters who have contempt for their programs. Do this mean that these posters stories are invalid? I think you are starting to think that maybe we should only accept survivor stories as accurate which come from those who have a balanced view of the industry and which do not hold contempt for the industry as this may cause bias or reason to embellish or lie.
You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter. If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.
I have shown that survivors do lie. I know that you dont like it. But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie? Pretty far fetched to me, especially with the evidence that I have provided with utilizing the fornits database only.
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>YAWN<
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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
Postby Shadyacres » Today, 8:20 am
So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
Well then I say this is a wrap then. Good work everyone. Whooter, shame on you.
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The subjective third party opinion of an anonymous poster? That's your proof?
Pretty much all of the survivors stories on fornits are anonymous.
An anonymous poster who obviously has nothing but contempt for his fellow students.
We have anonymous posters who have contempt for their programs. Do this mean that these posters stories are invalid? I think you are starting to think that maybe we should only accept survivor stories as accurate which come from those who have a balanced view of the industry and which do not hold contempt for the industry as this may cause bias or reason to embellish or lie.
You are at risk of looking like a complete incompetent, Whooter. If your position has any value at all it shouldn't be that hard to come up with a provable fabrication by a survivor.
I have shown that survivors do lie. I know that you dont like it. But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie? Pretty far fetched to me, especially with the evidence that I have provided with utilizing the fornits database only.
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So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings. Human beings lie. Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. Is that about right? You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent. If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything. Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies? He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort. If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.
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So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings. Human beings lie. Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. Is that about right?
No, I didn’t say that. I never said that survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. You made that up.
You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent. If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything.
BillS is telling us his account inside the program like any other survivor does here on fornits. If you are saying that we should not believe all the survivor stories then I would have to disagree with you.
Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies? He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort. If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.
Following along your thinking, how do we know that these other survivor stories are not just fabricated ,in the same way you describe, by anti-program people who have contempt for programs and blindly follow in lockstep the belief that all programs are abusive and not one child has ever done well?
Why do you try to discredit a fellow survivor because they have a different view?
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Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs. We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused. What that says up there, to me, is that they lied INSIDE the program to get away from the abuse! I lied my ass off INSIDE the program because I HAD to! The "stories" I told about "my past" weren't "bad" enough for them so I'd get confronted for "not being honest" (even though I absolutely was) so, I began to make up these horrible things I had supposedly done "in my past" to get the fuckers to stop attacking and confronting me. I also saw kid fake being sick INSIDE.....to get the hell out of group for a while cuz they were going nuts! That appears to be what "Bill" is talking about, yet here we are again with you spinning it into that he's saying that survivors are lying NOW!
Does it EVER end with you?
And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle. He's got your number and you know it!
You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.
Actually, it's more like hundreds of thousands.
Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:
A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.
Let me know what you come up with.
He'll come up with statements of hyperbole and evaluative opinion like "kidnapping" (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=390#p385313)and present them as false statements of fact, and he'll quote people like Gonzotherapy completely out of context to the point where it more or less changes the meaning. He'll also likely quote some fake survivor's account of the program and how wonderful it is.
He undersands evaluative opinion, or should, (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=405#p385352) and yet continues to call kidnapping a lie. Nobody is arguing that
Here's what Whooter does: If I were to go on a long discussion about brainwashing and end it off with "i was raped" where it was clear I was referring to brainwashing by surrounding context, as has been done elsewhere on the forum, he would cut that one statement out of context, call it a lie (when it would be evaluative opinion), and parade it around the forum as an example of how survivors lie. Now we all know that his twisting of other people's words is completely intentional but that's impossible to prove as you'd have to show his state of mind.
Whooter wrote (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31580&start=405#p385352)
I see what you are trying to say, psy, But I don’t agree that kidnapping can just be a matter of opinion. If we accepted this then how would we standardize and understand description from survivors here?
The use of the word "Kidnapping" is not meant to deceive and you know it. In context it's clearly descriptive of an escort service, even to people reading here for the first time. It's opinion, not fact, it's a descriptive label, not a legal term. The fact that a person says "I was kidnapped and brought to a program" makes it VERY clear that this was done with parental consent and the word kidnapping refers to what you call an escort service. Which in my view, is less accurate term to describe what they do. "Escort" implies something voluntary. Likewise with "transport service" which makes it seem as if a package is being shipped. Big burly men bursting into a room at night, putting teens in restraints, dragging them out the door to the car and driving them across state lines sounds a lot more like kidnapping to me than it does "escorting" or "transporting".
They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing
First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie. "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.
Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually. Like Frederick and others noted. Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.
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So, just to clarify, survivors are human beings. Human beings lie. Therefore program survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. Is that about right?
No, I didn’t say that. I never said that survivors must be lying if they said they were abused. You made that up.
No, you did; Whooter wrote:" But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?"
You haven't shown squat, as usual, your "evidence" is nonexistent. If anything, you just showed that billS (whoever he is) thinks that his fellow students lied about pretty much everything.
BillS is telling us his account inside the program like any other survivor does here on fornits. If you are saying that we should not believe all the survivor stories then I would have to disagree with you.
Well, yes, but the part you quoted was his opinion, not a factual account of events.
Your presence here is sufficient proof that program advocates troll these forums, so how are we to know that billS isn't one of your buddies? He has overt contempt for teens who failed to blindly follow the program, and feels, like you do, that this failure to blindly follow somehow indicates a lack of character, a lack of effort. If he and his story are real, it just means that the coercive thought reform has not worn off yet.
Following along your thinking, how do we know that these other survivor stories are not just fabricated ,in the same way you describe, by anti-program people who have contempt for programs and blindly follow in lockstep the belief that all programs are abusive and not one child has ever done well?
We know this because our side does not use brainwashing techniques that have been condemned by the U.N., among other reasons.
Why do you try to discredit a fellow survivor because they have a different view?
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I am not questioning him, exactly, I am questioning his current mental health. I already know about yours.
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(http://http://www.ssqq.com/information/images/tar%20baby.jpg)
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(http://http://www.ssqq.com/information/images/tar%20baby.jpg)
:tup:
P.S. & totally off topic.......Your wife is an awesome lady!!
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And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.
Exactly. How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”? Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne. I added it for Grins.
You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.
I never said I had proof that survivors lie about being abused. It was "why do survivors lie". This lead to the discussion that if they are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?
Do you see what I mean?
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And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.
Exactly. How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”? Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne. I added it for Grins.
You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.
I never said I had proof that survivors lie about being abused. It was "why do survivors lie". This lead to the discussion that if they are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?
Do you see what I mean?
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You lied about having a son, why should we believe anything you say? You have been proven to be a liar, unlike most of us here. If you are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin? I think you need to stop being so manipulative and get honest with yourself about your stinkin' thinkin'.
Do you see what I mean?
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No, you did; Whooter wrote:" But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?"
But I didn’t say “Survivors lie about being abused”
Well, yes, but the part you quoted was his opinion, not a factual account of events.
I went back and read BillS’s story and he never stated it was just his opinion. He stated what he saw.
We know this because our side does not use brainwashing techniques that have been condemned by the U.N., among other reasons.
And there is no indication that BillS was brainwashed when he wrote that. You could be brainwashed writing all these negative posts and not even know it. We could all be brainwashed and just be sitting around here invalidating each others’ stories.
I am not questioning him, exactly, I am questioning his current mental health. I already know about yours.
How about the mental health of survivors who claim to have been kidnapped and taken to a gulag and tortured and brainwashed. Would this poster be in a better frame of mental health then say BillS would be? BillS’s account is clearly articulated and balanced with negative aspects in his story. If he were brainwashed by Aspen he would have written a raving review with no downside.
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And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.
Exactly. How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”? Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne. I added it for Grins.
I'm sure you did. I'm sure you get a big kick out of what you do to us here. How sad and pathetic that you get enjoyment out of tormenting people who were abused as children.
There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
You keep posting that as proof that survivors lie about being abused.
I never said I had proof that survivors lie about being abused. It was "why do survivors lie". This lead to the discussion that if they are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin?
Do you see what I mean?
I see what you're trying to do. It ain't working.
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You lied about having a son, why should we believe anything you say? You have been proven to be a liar, unlike most of us here. If you are willing to lie about one thing then how are we to know where the truth ends and the lies begin? I think you need to stop being so manipulative and get honest with yourself about your stinkin' thinkin'.
Do you see what I mean?
Well I explained the circumstances surrounding the decision to write the post that I did. If I am placed in a position where a mother comes to fornits for advice and is subsequently being beat up on fornits and she is being told that her son is gay and performing oral sex on everyone in the program and many other posters are fooling her and logging in under different aliases then yes I think I would step in and do the same thing again.
These are the circumstances in-which I would write a post like I did. So everyone knows a little bit more about me than I do about them which makes my posts a little bit more credible in an environment where I am not being faced with rescuing a woman in distress.
If we were faced with another woman being beat up then you could justifiably be concerned that I would lie in that situation again because you have a past behavior pattern which would match present events and preclude a similar behavior from me. But outside of those conditions there is no reason to believe I would be lying.
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No, you did; Whooter wrote:" But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?"
But I didn’t say “Survivors lie about being abused”
Who cares what you said? You are a proven liar.
Well, yes, but the part you quoted was his opinion, not a factual account of events.
I went back and read BillS’s story and he never stated it was just his opinion. He stated what he saw.
Really? And how did he know they were lying? Is he psychic?
We know this because our side does not use brainwashing techniques that have been condemned by the U.N., among other reasons.
And there is no indication that BillS was brainwashed when he wrote that. You could be brainwashed writing all these negative posts and not even know it. We could all be brainwashed and just be sitting around here invalidating each others’ stories.
And who would have done this, and for what reason? We all know that programs have significant financial motivation to brainwash kids into believing that they were "saved" by these programs. What motivation would anyone have to do the opposite? If you know of somebody paying people to turn people against programs, hook me up, I could always use some extra cash.
I am not questioning him, exactly, I am questioning his current mental health. I already know about yours.
How about the mental health of survivors who claim to have been kidnapped and taken to a gulag and tortured and brainwashed. Would this poster be in a better frame of mental health then say BillS would be? BillS’s account is clearly articulated and balanced with negative aspects in his story. If he were brainwashed by Aspen he would have written a raving review with no downside.
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No, I don't think he would. The standard program zombie line is; "Yes, it was the hardest thing I have ever been through, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT because I was so messed up before". Then, after several years or even decades they change their tune and realize that all that trauma during their formative years was anything but good for them.
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No, you did; Whooter wrote:" But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie?"
But I didn’t say “Survivors lie about being abused”
Who cares what you said? You are a proven liar.
Well, yes, but the part you quoted was his opinion, not a factual account of events.
I went back and read BillS’s story and he never stated it was just his opinion. He stated what he saw.
Really? And how did he know they were lying? Is he psychic?
We know this because our side does not use brainwashing techniques that have been condemned by the U.N., among other reasons.
And there is no indication that BillS was brainwashed when he wrote that. You could be brainwashed writing all these negative posts and not even know it. We could all be brainwashed and just be sitting around here invalidating each others’ stories.
And who would have done this, and for what reason? We all know that programs have significant financial motivation to brainwash kids into believing that they were "saved" by these programs. What motivation would anyone have to do the opposite? If you know of somebody paying people to turn people against programs, hook me up, I could always use some extra cash.
I am not questioning him, exactly, I am questioning his current mental health. I already know about yours.
How about the mental health of survivors who claim to have been kidnapped and taken to a gulag and tortured and brainwashed. Would this poster be in a better frame of mental health then say BillS would be? BillS’s account is clearly articulated and balanced with negative aspects in his story. If he were brainwashed by Aspen he would have written a raving review with no downside.
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No, I don't think he would. The standard program zombie line is; "Yes, it was the hardest thing I have ever been through, BUT IT WAS WORTH IT because I was so messed up before. Then, after several years or even decades they change their tune and realize that all that trauma during their formative years was anything but good for them.
:nods: :tup:
It's true. That's pretty much what they tell us to say cuz they KNOW that the truth IS coming out. Not as fast as I'd like it to, but it IS coming...so to mitigate the damage, they tell us/them to say "yeah, it was hard and there were things I didn't agree with but I sure needed it and it saved my life.....I'd be deadinsaneorinjail if not for the program, no matter it's faults."
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There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
since you brought it up again and we are talking about opinions here:
Hmmmm.....and lets see why would you be still here after 30 years, Anne. If you were truly convinced that the programs screwed up your life you would have gotten past that 25 years ago. So you must realize that you screwed up, not the program, but that doesnt sit too well with you so you log on day after day here on fornits to in a failed attempt to fool yourself into believing the program was somehow responsible for your placement. You distanced yourself from your family with your new friends and drug use. You didnt listen to their concerns about the non stop partying, skipping school and car accidents you were getting into. Your parents gave you plenty of freedoms, (they didnt over react or jump the gun) and you flushed it all down the toilet and forced their hand into getting you help......... 30 years later its till someone else's fault and you sit and wait for an apology that will probably never come because it isn't warranted in anyones' mind except your own. You screwed up when you were young. You just need to face the facts and quit blaming other people and programs.
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Who cares what you said? You are a proven liar.
and so are you, Shadyacres. Why do keep pointing fingers?
Whooter, everybody lies. What is wrong with you? I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic. It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385938#p385938)
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Really? And how did he know they were lying? Is he psychic?
You don’t need to be a psychic to know another person is lying. A kid says he broke his arm and goes to the nurse and then the next day he sees him playing basketball without a cast on. You don’t need a medical degree to determine if they were lying or not.
And who would have done this, and for what reason? We all know that programs have significant financial motivation to brainwash kids into believing that they were "saved" by these programs. What motivation would anyone have to do the opposite? If you know of somebody paying people to turn people against programs, hook me up, I could always use some extra cash.
Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
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There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
since you brought it up again and we are talking about opinions here:
Hmmmm.....and lets see why would you be still here after 30 years, Anne. If you were truly convinced that the programs screwed up your life you would have gotten past that 25 years ago. So you must realize that you screwed up, not the program, but that doesnt sit too well with you so you log on day after day here on fornits to in a failed attempt to fool yourself into believing the program was somehow responsible for your placement. You distanced yourself from your family with your new friends and drug use. You didnt listen to their concerns about the non stop partying, skipping school and car accidents you were getting into. Your parents gave you plenty of freedoms, (they didnt over react or jump the gun) and you flushed it all down the toilet and forced their hand into getting you help......... 30 years later its till someone else's fault and you sit and wait for an apology that will probably never come because it isn't warranted in anyones' mind except your own. You screwed up when you were young. You just need to face the facts and quit blaming other people and programs.
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Whooter, young people are supposed to make mistakes. It is called learning. You make a mistake, you feel the consequences of that mistake and you learn to not do it again. However, crippling a child psychologically is NOT a reasonable consequence for anything, period. These programs, and you Whooter, take normal teenage behavior and use it as an excuse to terrorize and demoralize children who are already struggling, usually because their parents have failed them in one way or another. These places WILL be found to be criminally motivated and criminally operated, the only question is how long will it take? And what kind of upbringing did you have? To talk to Anne like that? YOU HAVE READ HER STORY! What pit of ignorance and narcissism did you crawl out of?
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There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
since you brought it up again and we are talking about opinions here:
Hmmmm.....and lets see why would you be still here after 30 years, Anne. If you were truly convinced that the programs screwed up your life you would have gotten past that 25 years ago.
As we've said MULTIPLE times here....sometimes it takes a while for the brainwashing to wear off. And in my case, I was still surrounded by Straight people and Straight thinking for decades after getting out.
So you must realize that you screwed up, not the program, but that doesnt sit too well with you so you log on day after day here on fornits to in a failed attempt to fool yourself into believing the program was somehow responsible for your placement.
They were directly responsible for my placement, as well as my father.
You distanced yourself from your family with your new friends and drug use.
No I did not. Where are you even getting this?
You didnt listen to their concerns about the non stop partying, skipping school and car accidents you were getting into. Your parents gave you plenty of freedoms, (they didnt over react or jump the gun) and you flushed it all down the toilet and forced their hand into getting you help......... 30 years later its till someone else's fault and you sit and wait for an apology that will probably never come because it isn't warranted in anyones' mind except your own. You screwed up when you were young. You just need to face the facts and quit blaming other people and programs.
What. The. Fuck. are you talking about??? None of that is true in the slightest. This is really low, even for you.
I'm here because I'm a survivor and I found a lot of help here, so I hopefully can pay some of that back in some small way. The MAIN reason though is because the same bullshit abuse that I went through is still going on today. There isn't a night I lay my head down on my pillow that I don't think about how there are kids at that very moment who are cold, scared, sick and being abused by the people who are supposed to be helping them. It's also the main reason I participated in the event this weekend.
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Who cares what you said? You are a proven liar.
and so are you, Shadyacres. Why do keep pointing fingers?
Whooter, everybody lies. What is wrong with you? I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic. It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385938#p385938)
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You are pathetic. Nobody believes that I wrote that.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
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Oh really, then why don't you enlighten us, Swami?
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
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Who cares what you said? You are a proven liar.
and so are you, Shadyacres. Why do keep pointing fingers?
Whooter, everybody lies. What is wrong with you? I lie myself if people are not listening to me or I am trying to get peoples attention on a topic. It doesnt mean that I lie about everything.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385938#p385938)
You are pathetic. Nobody believes that I wrote that.
Nope, they don't. But if they are new and/or unsure, and they go so far as to clink on the link, they get:
The requested topic does not exist.[/list]
Here we have yer standard version of Whooter's proof, i.e., one that doesn't even exist. :D
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There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
since you brought it up again and we are talking about opinions here:
Hmmmm.....and lets see why would you be still here after 30 years, Anne. If you were truly convinced that the programs screwed up your life you would have gotten past that 25 years ago. So you must realize that you screwed up, not the program, but that doesnt sit too well with you so you log on day after day here on fornits to in a failed attempt to fool yourself into believing the program was somehow responsible for your placement. You distanced yourself from your family with your new friends and drug use. You didnt listen to their concerns about the non stop partying, skipping school and car accidents you were getting into. Your parents gave you plenty of freedoms, (they didnt over react or jump the gun) and you flushed it all down the toilet and forced their hand into getting you help......... 30 years later its till someone else's fault and you sit and wait for an apology that will probably never come because it isn't warranted in anyones' mind except your own. You screwed up when you were young. You just need to face the facts and quit blaming other people and programs.
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Whooter, young people are supposed to make mistakes. It is called learning. You make a mistake, you feel the consequences of that mistake and you learn to not do it again. However, crippling a child psychologically is NOT a reasonable consequence for anything, period. These programs, and you Whooter, take normal teenage behavior and use it as an excuse to terrorize and demoralize children who are already struggling, usually because their parents have failed them in one way or another. These places WILL be found to be criminally motivated and criminally operated, the only question is how long will it take? And what kind of upbringing did you have? To talk to Anne like that? YOU HAVE READ HER STORY! What pit of ignorance and narcissism did you crawl out of?
That's what programs and their supporters do. Pathologize adolescence. All you really have to do to see that is read any of those insipid "questionnaires" on their websites. EVERY kid is moody, EVERY kid screws up occasionally, EVERY kid does things that scare their parents, EVERY kid steps out of line now and again so according to their thinking, damn near EVERY kid needs to be in a program. If parents would just pay attention and do their fucking jobs, they could take care of whatever issues the kid is having. But they don't. They look around for someone to tell them that they have "THE answer". No one does. There is no "THE answer". There is only parenting. Love your children, embrace their differences from you, quit trying to make them into what YOU want them to be and help them to become what THEY want to be, even if it doesn't jibe with your vision for them.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
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All these privileges come after the child has been indoctrinated (brainwashed), just like the place I was in 25 years ago. Is that all you got? These places have obviously been busy finding ways to distract from their real method, LGAT attack therapy.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
You're not describing programs.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
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All these privileges come after the child has been indoctrinated (brainwashed), just like the place I was in 25 years ago. Is that all you got? These places have obviously been busy finding ways to distract from their real method, LGAT attack therapy.
So the child can be brainwashed in several days to a couple of weeks? Hmmm. Like I said, read up on brainwashing and then come back and tell me if it is possible. I am not talking about 25 years ago in straight. I dont think that you played basketball with local highschool kids, went downtown for date night, went to school all day, prepared for the SATs, went white water rafting, spoke with friends and family outside the program, a licensed therapist who wasnt associated with the program, worked on community projects with locals etc.
Brainwashing needs a special controlled environment in-which it can thrive and take hold. The kids need to be isolated from society and outside influences. todays programs just dont fit that model, Shady.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
All these privileges come after the child has been indoctrinated (brainwashed), just like the place I was in 25 years ago. Is that all you got? These places have obviously been busy finding ways to distract from their real method, LGAT attack therapy.
True, although we weren't allowed even those 'privileges'. After we made it up to a certain phase we'd be allowed to do something like go to the mall with our parents for 2 hours, or possibly see a movie but it was either with our parents (who'd been sufficiently conditioned and trained to not believe anything we said about abuse and that if we DID say anything about it, our parents were to "report" that fact to staff immediately and we knew what would happen to us then....oh lord, we knew - so we kept our mouths shut) or with other staff along with us to make sure nobody spoke to anyone outside the program about, well pretty much anything at all, but mainly to make sure we didn't let on to anyone what was really going on inside.
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There is a reason Psy is here.....he's a survivor and was responding to your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words and your marketing in general. The only reason that you have been here for as long as you have and the ONLY reason I can see for your endless, useless and baseless analogies, your twisting of our words is that you're in this for the money (and apparently the "Grins" too. It's part of what you do....marketing, IMO. So, no......your "double standard" doesn't apply in this instance. As usual.
since you brought it up again and we are talking about opinions here:
Hmmmm.....and lets see why would you be still here after 30 years, Anne. If you were truly convinced that the programs screwed up your life you would have gotten past that 25 years ago. So you must realize that you screwed up, not the program, but that doesnt sit too well with you so you log on day after day here on fornits to in a failed attempt to fool yourself into believing the program was somehow responsible for your placement. You distanced yourself from your family with your new friends and drug use. You didnt listen to their concerns about the non stop partying, skipping school and car accidents you were getting into. Your parents gave you plenty of freedoms, (they didnt over react or jump the gun) and you flushed it all down the toilet and forced their hand into getting you help......... 30 years later its till someone else's fault and you sit and wait for an apology that will probably never come because it isn't warranted in anyones' mind except your own. You screwed up when you were young. You just need to face the facts and quit blaming other people and programs.
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Whooter, young people are supposed to make mistakes. It is called learning. You make a mistake, you feel the consequences of that mistake and you learn to not do it again. However, crippling a child psychologically is NOT a reasonable consequence for anything, period. These programs, and you Whooter, take normal teenage behavior and use it as an excuse to terrorize and demoralize children who are already struggling, usually because their parents have failed them in one way or another. These places WILL be found to be criminally motivated and criminally operated, the only question is how long will it take? And what kind of upbringing did you have? To talk to Anne like that? YOU HAVE READ HER STORY! What pit of ignorance and narcissism did you crawl out of?
He does it for the "Grins".
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31625&start=60#p386108 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31625&start=60#p386108)
And your comment to Psy about 'damage control'.......holy shit....talk about pot/kettle.
Exactly. How many times have I heard you say I was doing “Damage Control”? Now that the shoe is on the other foot all of a sudden the term doesn’t apply?
I enjoy watching the double standard play out here on fornits sometimes, Anne. I added it for Grins.
I'm sure you did. I'm sure you get a big kick out of what you do to us here. How sad and pathetic that you get enjoyment out of tormenting people who were abused as children.
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Shadyacres, if you ever get the time look up brainwashing and you will see what events need to occur to brainwash a person fully. Behavior modification? yes. Brainwashing? No.
Start reading here Whooter. You might, might learn something.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
Thanks, anne, my links were a little different but these will do.
Here you go shadyacres. Read up on brainwashing and then come back try to explain how a kid can be brainwashed when they go to school all day, play basketball, go on whitewater rafting trips. Have datenight trips into town for pizza. Prepare for SAT's, write letters to their family and friends, call home once a week, have periodic family visits on campus and off campus, meet once a week with a licensed therapist who is not associated with the school and communicates with the childs therapist at home and then plan for graduation.
...
For the sake of clarity, most of those privileges ( except the rafting trip ) were available to "clients" on the higher phases of the program, but only after they had made it through the living hell that is Phases 1 - 3. By this time they were fire breathing ( brainwashed ) program nazis and therefore "trustworthy". But, as Anne just pointed out they NEVER let anybody go anywhere alone, there was always a pair of program eyes and program ears around to make sure we were not "backsliding".
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I dont think that you played basketball with local highschool kids, went downtown for date night, went to school all day, prepared for the SATs, went white water rafting, spoke with friends and family outside the program, a licensed therapist who wasnt associated with the program, worked on community projects with locals etc.
Brainwashing needs a special controlled environment in-which it can thrive and take hold. The kids need to be isolated from society and outside influences. todays programs just dont fit that model, Shady.
Yep, that "controlled environment" is called a therapeutic milieu. And if the majority of the people involved in all of the above activities are already duly indoctrinated, sure, it's easy enough to "brainwash" or "thought reform" a kid, even with all that going on. "Positive peer culture," ya know?
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Whooter, young people are supposed to make mistakes. It is called learning. You make a mistake, you feel the consequences of that mistake and you learn to not do it again.
There is a very small population of children who do not learn from their consequences and still continue down a path of self destruction. All teenagers act out and test their boundaries. But most stay pretty much on a good path, attend school etc.
However, crippling a child psychologically is NOT a reasonable consequence for anything, period.
We agree here.
These programs, and you Whooter, take normal teenage behavior and use it as an excuse to terrorize and demoralize children who are already struggling, usually because their parents have failed them in one way or another.
I disagree with this.
These places WILL be found to be criminally motivated and criminally operated, the only question is how long will it take?
I agree that some are motivated this way and eventually will be found out and closed.
And what kind of upbringing did you have? To talk to Anne like that? YOU HAVE READ HER STORY! What pit of ignorance and narcissism did you crawl out of?
I wouldn’t worry too much. You are fairly new here, This is anne Bonneys MO. She attacks me and then when I retaliate she seeks out attention from the forum. “Oh, why did you say those things about me… I never say anything bad about you, Whooter” She will fan the flames and get what she can out of it attention wise.
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I wouldn’t worry too much. You are fairly new here, This is anne Bonneys MO. She attacks me and then when I retaliate she seeks out attention from the forum. “Oh, why did you say those things about me… I never say anything bad about you, Whooter” She will fan the flames and get what she can out of it attention wise.
Wrong again. You've just done it so much (and not just to me) that I've gotten used to it and it pretty much bounces off me. But it is telling to see the reactions from other people who see how you speak to me. Hell, I went thru Straight......I can take a helluva lot more than a pathetic person like Whooter can dish out.
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I wouldn’t worry too much. You are fairly new here, This is anne Bonneys MO. She attacks me and then when I retaliate she seeks out attention from the forum. “Oh, why did you say those things about me… I never say anything bad about you, Whooter” She will fan the flames and get what she can out of it attention wise.
Wrong again. You've just done it so much (and not just to me) that I've gotten used to it and it pretty much bounces off me. But it is telling to see the reactions from other people who see how you speak to me. Hell, I went thru Straight......I can take a helluva lot more than a pathetic person like Whooter can dish out.
No I am right. You enjoy saying I profit from the industry and that I post here for marketing purposes etc., etc.(you use the sharp stick). Then when I write about you in response, you get upset and demand links and citations. lol. We all know you like the attention, Anne, otherwise you would not provoke it so often. Like you said it happens alot so you know in the end you will get the attention you crave from it.
I have thick skin and do not mind the fall out from it.
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Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF? But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.
Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
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I wouldn’t worry too much. You are fairly new here, This is anne Bonneys MO. She attacks me and then when I retaliate she seeks out attention from the forum. “Oh, why did you say those things about me… I never say anything bad about you, Whooter” She will fan the flames and get what she can out of it attention wise.
Wrong again. You've just done it so much (and not just to me) that I've gotten used to it and it pretty much bounces off me. But it is telling to see the reactions from other people who see how you speak to me. Hell, I went thru Straight......I can take a helluva lot more than a pathetic person like Whooter can dish out.
No I am right. You enjoy saying I profit from the industry and that I post here for marketing purposes etc., etc.(you use the sharp stick). Then when I write about you in response, you get upset and demand links and citations. lol. We all know you like the attention, Anne, otherwise you would not provoke it so often. Like you said it happens alot so you know in the end you will get the attention you crave from it.
I have thick skin and do not mind the fall out from it.
Tell yourself whatever you need to dude. ::)
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Tell yourself whatever you need to dude. ::)
Cheers, here is back at you, Anne. I mentioned to you before there is no need to call people names or invent motives for why people post here in an attempt to discredit them. Just accept each poster equally. Each of us post based on our own experiences, we are all different and I think its unfair to try to undercut someone by spreading lies about them or to try to seek attention (whatever the motive is).
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Ridicule and antagonize people who were abused as children. Why do you do that? How big a hole do you have in your soul? Does this help to fill it?
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Ridicule and antagonize people who were abused as children. Why do you do that?
I would never do anything like that. Anyone who has read my posts know that isnt something I would do.
...
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Ridicule and antagonize people who were abused as children. Why do you do that?
I would never do anything like that. Anyone who has read my posts know that isnt something I would do.
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Okay.... anyone who has read your posts knows that you do this every day, you just did it 5 minutes ago. I hope you work through your loneliness and feelings of inadequacy but I don't think that attacking abuse survivors is a valid form of self therapy. May you be "escorted" by left wing guerillas.
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Ridicule and antagonize people who were abused as children. Why do you do that?
I would never do anything like that. Anyone who has read my posts know that isnt something I would do.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF? But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.
Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.
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Okay.... anyone who has read your posts knows that you do this every day, you just did it 5 minutes ago.
Ha,Ha,Ha Thats funny! This is what I mean about the attention stuff. If someone is going to start spreading lies about me then I will retaliate, yes.
I hope you work through your loneliness and feelings of inadequacy but I don't think that attacking abuse survivors is a valid form of self therapy.
BooHoo, You can say what ever you want about me and make up stories but the minute I defend myself you see it as attacking abuse survivors. I love the double standard here. You rarely hear anyone saying "Hey, why are you ganging up on a program parent"? I think in 99% of the cases I was attacked before I retaliated.
May you be "escorted" by left wing guerillas.
Thank you for not saying "Kidnapped" !!
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Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF? But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.
Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.
I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea and were saying that kids were locked up and abused. This intrigued me and I stuck around and read for about a month or so before I posted.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing. Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated. So I stuck around and have been posting ever since.
...
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Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF? But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.
Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.
I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea and were saying that kids were locked up and abused. This intrigued me and I stuck around and read for about a month or so before I posted.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing. Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated. So I stuck around and have been posting ever since.
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Ha,Ha,Ha. Whooter that is 20 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. So, because you are a good citizen, you log on here EVERY DAY to fill the void in our biased and uninformed understanding? How is your understanding informed or unbiased? You consistently refuse to admit the possibility of abuse at a program UNLESS IT HAS BEEN CLOSED DOWN ALREADY. And what credible information are you talking about? We don't have to wonder why a certain group of people try so hard to keep the information we have from being discussed or validated. You are not the first poster to be identified as a program affiliate, far from it. So why does this industry care so much about this forum, if we are so "biased and uninformed". If the industry has changed that much, why are they so threatened by what only we, and they, know?
Do you see what I mean?
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Hell,it's not even daily... its minute by minute. On the weekends. NO normal person would LIVE at this site if they thought it was full of crap.
And who are YOU, Scrooter, to tell anyone when the time limit is to "get over it" ... you weren't even in the program and you're not over it because you come here every freaking day, all day, every day... This is NOT NORMAL! You have ZERO credibility.
Do you even do anything productive? Work, volunteer, eat, screw? Is this the sum total of your existence? Bashing people on a survivor site?
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Ha,Ha,Ha. Whooter that is 20 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. So, because you are a good citizen, you log on here EVERY DAY to fill the void in our biased and uninformed understanding? How is your understanding informed or unbiased? You consistently refuse to admit the possibility of abuse at a program UNLESS IT HAS BEEN CLOSED DOWN ALREADY.
See, this is the perception you have. But I challenge you to find a single post where I said that or implied that. I have always maintained that some programs abuse kids. The challenge on your end it to admit that some programs do not!! lol
And what credible information are you talking about? We don't have to wonder why a certain group of people try so hard to keep the information we have from being discussed or validated. You are not the first poster to be identified as a program affiliate, far from it.
I have put forth ideas of collecting information on programs, number of suicides, number of deaths... I ended up doing it myself because no one was interested. Then everyone ran from the results. There were books written by credible authors who spent time inside a program and wrote about it which I wanted placed on the book list. Oh my goodness, that fell on deaf ears... students who did studies and independent studies... the results did not line up well here so no one looked at them.....just to name a few.
So why does this industry care so much about this forum, if we are so "biased and uninformed". If the industry has changed that much, why are they so threatened by what only we, and they, know?
Do you see what I mean?
No I dont, I havent seen any articles or indication that the industry is interested in fornits at all. Do you mean the Sue scheff postings? I wasnt around I dont think back then.
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Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF? But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.
Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.
I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea and were saying that kids were locked up and abused. This intrigued me and I stuck around and read for about a month or so before I posted.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing. Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated. So I stuck around and have been posting ever since.
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Whooter, this explanation you just gave sounds like a punishment we are receiving because we react very passionately about a sin that was committed against us. We do not want to be challenged or discredited by someone who has no real vested interest in this industry.
So you had all these reactions from posters explaining their experiences and it rubbed you the wrong way. You found them to be narrow minded, emotional, quick to anger when agitated, I don't know what you expected from a Web Site dedicated to victims of abuse from treatment centers.
Can you stop for one second and consider that what you are doing is hurting others, I mean in five years you have not even for one nano-second questioned yourself and said,"hey is what I'm doing here helping the general population". Do you even care?
Think....
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Whooter, this explanation you just gave sounds like a punishment we are receiving because we react very passionately about a sin that was committed against us. We do not want to be challenged or discredited by someone who has no real vested interest in this industry.
Why not? (Well not discredited) Why not get all the different perspectives that you can?
So you had all these reactions from posters explaining their experiences and it rubbed you the wrong way. You found them to be narrow minded, emotional, quick to anger when agitated, I don't know what you expected from a Web Site dedicated to victims of abuse from treatment centers.
Can you stop for one second and consider that what you are doing is hurting others, I mean in five years you have not even for one nano-second questioned yourself and said,"hey is what I'm doing here helping the general population". Do you even care?
Think....
Of course I care that is why I am here. Would you want the readers to just receive one perspective from fornits? If you visited a website where you were trying to get an idea about an industry wouldn’t you want to be in a forum that had representatives from differing opinions?
If you were going to buy a car you wouldn’t want to just talk to those people who were in car accidents would you? You would want to talk to people who were satisfied with their purchase also so that you could get a more broader and balanced perspective.
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I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea and were saying that kids were locked up and abused. This intrigued me and I stuck around and read for about a month or so before I posted.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing. Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated. So I stuck around and have been posting ever since.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: ...
Oh my dear god. This is the funniest thing you have ever written. Talk about your great works of fiction.
Credible information? I have seen you provide no credible info, ever. Not even a vowel.
Fill a void of misunderstanding? You are emptying a void Whooter, somehow you manage to spill shit from the void between your ears. This is an amazing work of physics, and I think you should get a prize for it. Here ya go ::puke::
I think your last statement/question is a good one. Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated? Well, since there is a great deal of belief that you are here protecting a program lined pocketbook, the answer is :jamin: drumroll please..... A BILLION dollar industry covering its ass.
Please show me one shred of credible information Whooter, that means something pro-program that has no monetary kickback for being so.
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Oh my dear god. This is the funniest thing you have ever written. Talk about your great works of fiction.
Credible information? I have seen you provide no credible info, ever. Not even a vowel.
Fill a void of misunderstanding? You are emptying a void Whooter, somehow you manage to spill shit from the void between your ears. This is an amazing work of physics, and I think you should get a prize for it. Here ya go ::puke::
I think your last statement/question is a good one. Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated? Well, since there is a great deal of belief that you are here protecting a program lined pocketbook, the answer is :jamin: drumroll please..... A BILLION dollar industry covering its ass.
Please show me one shred of credible information Whooter, that means something pro-program that has no monetary kickback for being so.
Thank you Gonzo for that demonstration of how myself and many others were received when we spoke about our experiences which stated that not all programs were abusive. Gonzotherapy represents the fornits mentality.
Now imagine for a minute if I treated a survivors story that way? Laughed, called the poster a joke. Do you think fornits is unbiased enough to be equally appalled at the treatment I just received from Gonzotherapy? I did find a survivor post to be so outrageous that I poked fun at it and you would have thought I shot someone! People wanted me banned and thrown off the forum. What do you think the chances are of anyone coming forward against Gonzotherapy? Lol.. correct. Geesh even a kid Named BillS is being saddled with accusations of being brainwashed because his story doesn’t fit with the standard narrative.
Imagine for a minute how well a study is received here which shows the programs to be successful? Or a book by a Pulitzer prized author who spent 14 months inside a program and reported his findings or a graduate student who does a study and reports positive results. Do you think people here will take the time to read them or spend time trying to find a way to discredit the information. I think we both know how the time is spent.
So when you ask me why I post here it is easy to see that there is a ton of mis information being passed around because a large portion of information is buried or ignored. To my knowledge I am the only one who presents the studies,books or anything non-negative towards the program to fornits readers.
...
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Thank you Gonzo for that demonstration of how myself and many others were received when we spoke about our experiences which stated that not all programs were abusive. Gonzotherapy represents the fornits mentality.
Now imagine for a minute if I treated a survivors story that way? Laughed, called the poster a joke. Do you think fornits is unbiased enough to be equally appalled at the treatment I just received from Gonzotherapy? I did find a survivor post to be so outrageous that I poked fun at it and you would have thought I shot someone! People wanted me banned and thrown off the forum. What do you think the chances are of anyone coming forward against Gonzotherapy? Lol.. correct. Geesh even a kid Named BillS is being saddled with accusations of being brainwashed because his story doesn’t fit with the standard narrative.
Imagine for a minute how well a study is received here which shows the programs to be successful? Or a book by a Pulitzer prized author who spent 14 months inside a program and reported his findings or a graduate student who does a study and reports positive results. Do you think people here will take the time to read them or spend time trying to find a way to discredit the information. I think we both know how the time is spent.
So when you ask me why I post here it is easy to see that there is a ton of mis information being passed around because a large portion of information is buried or ignored. To my knowledge I am the only one who presents the studies,books or anything non-negative towards the program to fornits readers.
...
WHAT? What studies? What books? You mean program financed advertisements? Hardly biased. You are a joke because you provide no credible evidence whatsoever, and when faced with credible evidence against programs, of which there are mountains, you either side-step completely or flat out lie with no proof to back up your claims. You are so obviously monetarily motivated to be here.
Now understand this. A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome. There are some reasons why people can be successful after leaving a program. Some people can hang with horrid conditions and abuse. I have yet to see one shred of evidence from you that verifies any program is helpful and not abusive. And honestly I believe there may be one out there. But it is not involved with larger corporations as a franchise. Like WWASPS, or Aspen Education. Those are businesses and their only motivation is money, so why would they not cut corners to make more money. How many programs have been shut down over abuse? Hundreds. If not thousands.
I believe you made a comment about how WWASPS is headed out and programs do not do those things anymore.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maia-szal ... 71379.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maia-szalavitz/what-we-lost-when-we-lost_b_171379.html)
WWASPS is losing some battles but is still operating and making money.
They use the same techniques that many of these other schools use, they just have different names.
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I have shown that survivors do lie. I know that you dont like it. But do you really expect to make readers believe that survivors are the only segment of society which do not contain members who lie? Pretty far fetched to me, especially with the evidence that I have provided with utilizing the fornits database only.
No, you haven't. There hasn't been any evidence. Once again if you'd like stick with these standards of yours we can. but you won't like where it goes. Stop playing games, or stop talking.
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Now understand this. A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome.
Heretik, come-on,how can you question why I come to fornits and post here after reading the stuff Gonzo posts? How can anyone pass up reading this? Gonzotherapy is the face of fornits. This is the mentality that the average person sees when they come to fornits.
If you went to a Ford forum and they had people like Gonzo who was telling everyone that every car was defective and you will be hurt if you drive one. He would tell you that all the studies showing safety ratings were financed by the car companies. Dont be fooled people by those few drivers who say they like Ford cars because: "A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome." (classic). It takes up to 20 years for the real effects of auto driving wears off and you can realize the damage done.
Thanks Gonzo!
...
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Now understand this. A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome.
If you went to a Ford forum and they had people like Gonzo who was telling everyone that every car was defective and you will be hurt if you drive one. He would tell you that all the studies showing safety ratings were financed by the car companies. Dont be fooled people by those few drivers who say they like Ford cars because: "A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome." (classic). It takes up to 20 years for the real effects of auto driving wears off and you can realize the damage done.
Thanks Gonzo!
...
What does this have to do with being forced to make my bed? Or potty training? You are too hard to follow Whooter. Why is Ford keeping POW's? Are they making cars that isolate and demoralize teenagers? No wonder they are at war. If you produce, provide or market a product that does that to people you should expect people to make war on you.
Do you see what I mean?
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Now understand this. A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome.
If you went to a Ford forum and they had people like Gonzo who was telling everyone that every car was defective and you will be hurt if you drive one. He would tell you that all the studies showing safety ratings were financed by the car companies. Dont be fooled people by those few drivers who say they like Ford cars because: "A POW can come out of a POW camp and be successful. There is also Stockholm syndrome." (classic). It takes up to 20 years for the real effects of auto driving wears off and you can realize the damage done.
Thanks Gonzo!
...
What does this have to do with being forced to make my bed? Or potty training? You are too hard to follow Whooter. Why is Ford keeping POW's? Are they making cars that isolate and demoralize teenagers? No wonder they are at war. If you produce, provide or market a product that does that to people you should expect people to make war on you.
Do you see what I mean?
Ha,Ha,Ha, That's funny!
...
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Do you find that as funny as the post about the kid being tortured whom you later laughed at.
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Any second now Whooter is going to provide some actual evidence to support his claim.
Any second now.......
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The Sex Pistols wrote a song about lying..
(now if someone could pull those lyrics up, please)
-
The Sex Pistols wrote a song about lying..
(now if someone could pull those lyrics up, please)
Liar
Lie lie lie lie liar you lie
Lie lie lie lie lie tell me why
Tell me why why d'you have to lie
Should've realised that you
Should've told the truth
Should've realised you know what i'll do
You're in suspension you're a liar
Now i wanna know know i wanna known why
You never look me in the face
Broke a confidence just to please your ego
Should've realised you know what i know
I know where you go everybody you know
I know everything that you do or say
So when you tell lies i always be in your way
I'm nobody's fool and i know all cos i know
What i know
Lie lie lie liar you lie lie lie lie
I think you're funny you're funny ha ha
I don't need it don't need your blah blah
Should've realised i know what you are
You're in suspension you're a liar
You're a liar
You're a lie
Lie lie lie
...
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Thanks, Whooter.
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any second now his evidence will be revealed.....
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So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do. I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.
Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs. We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
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Stop lying!
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Whooter if you can take just a quick second away from not providing any evidence to back up your claims, I wanted to let you know I responded to your PM over in your PM thread on OFFA. You should go check it out, but try and keep your responses over there. In case you've forgotten here was your PM from when you mistakenly believed you'd somehow convinced anyone you aren't John Reuben.
To my 2 trolls:
Victory!!! Thank you!! Just to show you I am a nice guy:
I wanted to welcome you both back to fornits. DJ, Troll Control, Watchful Yeoman Etal and to RobertBruce. Now that we have the whole John Reuben fiasco behind us I thought that you may want to join the rest of us in constructive conversation. You spent years thinking I was this guy, trolling and making links back to a “John Reuben“ themed thread and now have to readjust to reality. Your head must be spinning thinking of the time you spent (wasted)… lol. Bruce you even wrote emails to this guys family members!! Do you feel a little foolish? What an ass you are.
Oh wait, maybe you can save face out on the open forum and tell people that I hired a replacement to spend time on fornits while Reuben ran the race like Bruce stated earlier!!
I tried to tell you years ago that this was not me, but I quickly realized that you needed to find out for yourself and eventually you would (like you have now). It was fun watching Lenny and Squiggy take turns trying to prove I was John Reuben but I also take delight in being the first one to say “I told you so!” Ha,Ha,Ha.
You both reside in the OFFA thread for the most part because, lets face it, you cannot communicate more than a post or 2 in a debate without asking repeated questions or attacking someone.
I fully realize that you will try to save face and push forward with your attacks and try to convince people that I am this John Reuben person… But between the 3 of us we know the truth and I just wanted to say:
“Ha,Ha,Ha,” !!!!
Steve: I really enjoyed those hours leading up to your posts being exposed when you didn’t want to commit and then suddenly your disgusting porn posts became public along with your Concerned Parent posts and the rest. I counted dozens of edited and deleted posts of your desperation (but not before you could erase them all I captured the lions share of your filth). Keep changing those user names!
30 day Bruce: What can I say except get a life and try to be yourself. You would not believe the number of PM’s and emails I received over the years asking me what your problem was. Remember when you use to come up with a list of 10 questions every week? What was up with that behavior? You are probably a good guy but you suck at trying to have a civil conversation with anyone. Someday maybe we will talk again but you need to get help first.
Wait one more time!! This is to both of you.. straight on:
“Ha,Ha,Ha,” !!!!
Get on it Whootie.
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Where are my manners? Here's the link to that post, and the subsequent response you felt should be made public instead of in PMs. I'm not sure why you'd want to be embarrassed in such an open forum, but then again I'm sure you're used to it by now.
http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31630
Get to it Whootie.
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So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.
I am not saying all survivors lie, but some do. I am not sure why they do or if they lie at a higher rate than non survivors or program staff and supporters do.
Maybe you missed the post earlier but we had a survivor who indicated that he saw quite a bit of lying going on onside of programs. We had a post by Gonzo who is a survivor also who supports that survivors have lied here on fornits.
BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:
Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=385765#p385765)
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Stop lying!
I dont know about the faking being attacked by people or broken limbs but my daughter said a lot of kids would fake being sick to try to get a day in the infirmary where they got ice cream, juice and could sleep during the day.
...
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The daughter you don't have? Talk about lying. What did your son say? The one you murdered, not the other one whom you also locked up.
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The daughter you don't have? Talk about lying. What did your son say? The one you murdered, not the other one whom you also locked up.
Sorry that you are in so much pain, Squiggy.
(http://http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/images/mobile/0111061748.jpg)
...
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Then why do you do it, Whooter?
Do what?
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Ridicule and antagonize people who were abused as children. Why do you do that?
I would never do anything like that. Anyone who has read my posts know that isnt something I would do.
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As I pointed out, you do this every day. It is obvious that nobody here is in more pain than you, why don't you talk about it? What is so horrible that you have to cope with it by antagonizing abuse victims from the safety of your computer chair?
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The daughter you don't have? Talk about lying. What did your son say? The one you murdered, not the other one whom you also locked up.
Sorry that you are in so much pain, Squiggy.
(http://http://minutillo.com/steve/weblog/images/mobile/0111061748.jpg)
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Why are you in so much pain Whooter? Don't you have anything better to do than troll fornitz and pick at peoples scabs? Why don't you spend some time with your kids?
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As I pointed out, you do this every day. It is obvious that nobody here is in more pain than you, why don't you talk about it? What is so horrible that you have to cope with it by antagonizing abuse victims from the safety of your computer chair?
You are fairly new here, Shady. I take great pleasure in pointing out that Lenny and Squiggy (Bruce and DJ) wasted years of their lives trolling me only to find out they were chasing a ghost. Neither of these guys were abused in a Program. Bruce spent less than a month inside the place, they made him clean up his own mess and he ran away and DJ was staff at HLA until they did a background check and found out he had felony convictions then he had to reinvent himself elsewhere. All is good,no one is getting hurt, no abuse victim is being antagonized.
...
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I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea
Actually, that was Senator Sam Ervin that made that comparison......but, AGAIN, you already knew that and decided to spin it anyway.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing. Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
Anyone from WWASPS or Aspen Ed or any of the other incarnations are welcome here. They just can't handle what they dish out to kids, so they never stay.....except you.
And the reason we "old timers" stick around is because the programs of today are using the same basic abusive methods that were used on us. Nothing much has really changed with these places, except the names.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
You've never provided any credible studies or statistics. What you've provided have been "exit surveys" filled out by parents.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated.
I dunno.....you tell us. Why do programs refuse to come out in the open and truly discuss how these miraculous changes they promise are brought about?
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As I pointed out, you do this every day. It is obvious that nobody here is in more pain than you, why don't you talk about it? What is so horrible that you have to cope with it by antagonizing abuse victims from the safety of your computer chair?
You are fairly new here, Shady. I take great pleasure in pointing out that Lenny and Squiggy (Bruce and DJ) wasted years of their lives trolling me only to find out they were chasing a ghost. Neither of these guys were abused in a Program. Bruce spent less than a month inside the place, they made him clean up his own mess and he ran away and DJ was staff at HLA until they did a background check and found out he had felony convictions then he had to reinvent himself elsewhere. All is good,no one is getting hurt, no abuse victim is being antagonized.
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Mr. Reuben, are you smoking crack again or something? Do you actually believe these
lies you keep telling? I think you do. I think you're so fucked up, that you don't know
what's true and what isn't anymore. The very fact that you even started a thread
entitled "Why Do Survivors Lie" in itself demonstrates you're intention to antagonize
abuse victims/survivors.
Another thing "whooter" - R. Bruce & DJ were trolling you for years? BULLSHIT! I'm not
new to these forums. I've been posting at fornits on and off for almost 6 years. You've
been trolling this site under a variety of assumed usernames for at least as long as I've been
here. The reason why you have so much animosity for R. Bruce & DJ is that they've successfully busted you on so many of your lies, and continue doing so.
Another thing John, you say R.Bruce & DJ are Lenny & Squiggy, so then what does that make you and Danny B II? Personally, I don't view Whooter & Danny B II as being Lenny & Squiggy - Whooter & Danny B II are more like Zed & Marsellus. They had another friend Maxie pad/Suck it - he was their Gimp, but Maxie got tired so he collected his "toys" and went home.
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Mr. Reuben, are you smoking crack again or something? Do you actually believe these
lies you keep telling? I think you do.
Son, you got some splan'in to do:
Son of Serbia has been lying on this site since day one. I think it throws into question all his posts about CEDU in the readers opinion. I like how you challenge people to check your posts knowing that you are a bigot.
Here take a look at Son of Serbias own words. There are hundreds of lies in this forum from him:
please don't not refer to me as "deranged", i prefer the term "eccentric". And i am not a biggot either, check my posts, you will see that i haven't called anyone a faggot.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=55867#p55867)
In another post son of Serbia writes:
The only faggot I see on this site is you!
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6319&p=57954&hilit=faggot#p57954)
Seems the ones that get so pissed at others lying are the biggest liars themselves. I proved this with Dysfunction Junction also.
...
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I proved this with Dysfunction Junction also.
You did no such thing. All you've done is twist our words around to use against us. Just like programs used to do to us. Shocking! ::)
DKincaidCFS caught on right away......
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31436&start=15#p383866 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31436&start=15#p383866)
I understand the skepticism and I have been told that before from other groups of people who were in programs, too. Thank you for relating your experiences.
Hopefully we can widen the sample to other programs over time.
That's an interesting comment about people posting here that work for programs. In a sense, they never allow these children to "leave the program" by stifling their dialogue here. Fascinating, really.
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Mr. Reuben, are you smoking crack again or something? Do you actually believe these
lies you keep telling? I think you do.
Son, you got some splan'in to do:
Son of Serbia has been lying on this site since day one. I think it throws into question all his posts about CEDU in the readers opinion. I like how you challenge people to check your posts knowing that you are a bigot.
Here take a look at Son of Serbias own words. There are hundreds of lies in this forum from him:
please don't not refer to me as "deranged", i prefer the term "eccentric". And i am not a biggot either, check my posts, you will see that i haven't called anyone a faggot.
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=55867#p55867)
In another post son of Serbia writes:
The only faggot I see on this site is you!
Link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6319&p=57954&hilit=faggot#p57954)
Seems the ones that get so pissed at others lying are the biggest liars themselves. I proved this with Dysfunction Junction also.
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Yeah whatever John. We've been over this before Whootie. John Reuben says I'm a lying biggot - because I told a biggoted troll who was calling other Cedu Survivors faggots, that HE was the only faggot I saw on the board.
Obviously in your crack induced(?), schizophrenic, self-grandizing reality - this makes me president of the ku klux klan - right Whootie? Man you're fucked up!
Anyways, I invite everyone to read through the cedu archives including my post & those of the anon troll I was responding to, and judge for themselves. For all I know, the programmed anon biggot I responded to was probably another one of "Whooter's" sock puppets.
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Whooter, this explanation you just gave sounds like a punishment we are receiving because we react very passionately about a sin that was committed against us. We do not want to be challenged or discredited by someone who has no real vested interest in this industry.
Why not? (Well not discredited) Why not get all the different perspectives that you can?
We don't need to get anyone's "perspective". We've LIVED this shit.......YOU have not! This, when it first started out, was a site for SURVIVORS to connect, talk, vent....whatever. Other people started reading it and it started to shed some light on the TTI. People like Lon Woodbury couldn't have that cutting into his profits, so we were invaded by programs themselves. Then you come along and try to make everyone think you're just this civic minded person here to provide "balance". Go start your own goddamned forum and talk all you want about how wonderful programs are and what a great job they did for your family. ::) Seriously......why would any sane person spend the inordinate amount of time here that you do if they didn't have a vested, financial interest in the industry?
So you had all these reactions from posters explaining their experiences and it rubbed you the wrong way. You found them to be narrow minded, emotional, quick to anger when agitated, I don't know what you expected from a Web Site dedicated to victims of abuse from treatment centers.
Can you stop for one second and consider that what you are doing is hurting others, I mean in five years you have not even for one nano-second questioned yourself and said,"hey is what I'm doing here helping the general population". Do you even care?
Think....
Of course I care
Bullshit.
that is why I am here.
Bullshit
Would you want the readers to just receive one perspective from fornits? If you visited a website where you were trying to get an idea about an industry wouldn’t you want to be in a forum that had representatives from differing opinions?
This website does not represent the industry in any way, shape or form. It's a fucking message board for survivors to talk about their experiences. It just happened to catch on and programs can't have their secrets being discovered so they came over to do damage control. What they were 'exposed' to here (what you refer to as attacks) is a fraction and I mean a tiny sliver of a fraction of what kids are exposed to in programs every single day. They couldn't take it so they left. The kids, unfortunately, can't just leave. Then you show up and because of your marketing experience and, well.....because you're kind of a dick, you've been able to handle these "attacks" ::) and stuck around to protect your interests.
If you were going to buy a car you wouldn’t want to just talk to those people who were in car accidents would you? You would want to talk to people who were satisfied with their purchase also so that you could get a more broader and balanced perspective.
Please, for the love of all things good and true...........STOP THE ANALOGIES!!!!!!!!! You're really terrible at them.
And, AGAIN.......this is not a forum that represents the TTI in any way, so there is no need for you to provide anything at all. We're talking about our experiences. You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
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Please, for the love of all things good and true...........STOP THE ANALOGIES!!!!!!!!! You're really terrible at them.
You struggle with analogies Anne, that is the problem. If you would read up on them and understand them a little then you may start getting the message behind them.
You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
You dont have any experience with them, except 30 plus years ago. I have more current insight into this industry than you do. I know this frustrates you but we need to stick with the facts here.
...
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Please, for the love of all things good and true...........STOP THE ANALOGIES!!!!!!!!! You're really terrible at them.
You struggle with analogies Anne, that is the problem. If you would read up on them and understand them a little then you may start getting the message behind them.
Nice condescension. I understand them very well. You just really, REALLY suck at them.
You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
You dont have any experience with them, except 30 plus years ago.
Bullshit. You have no idea just how much I DO know.
I have more current insight into this industry than you do.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
I know this frustrates you but we need to stick with the facts here.
I honestly don't think you'd know a fact if it reached up and smacked you in your smug, condescending ass.
You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
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We don't need to get anyone's "perspective". We've LIVED this shit.......YOU have not! This, when it first started out, was a site for SURVIVORS to connect, talk, vent....whatever. Other people started reading it and it started to shed some light on the TTI. People like Lon Woodbury couldn't have that cutting into his profits, so we were invaded by programs themselves. Then you come along and try to make everyone think you're just this civic minded person here to provide "balance". Go start your own goddamned forum and talk all you want about how wonderful programs are and what a great job they did for your family. ::) Seriously......why would any sane person spend the inordinate amount of time here that you do if they didn't have a vested, financial interest in the industry?
So you had all these reactions from posters explaining their experiences and it rubbed you the wrong way. You found them to be narrow minded, emotional, quick to anger when agitated, I don't know what you expected from a Web Site dedicated to victims of abuse from treatment centers.
Can you stop for one second and consider that what you are doing is hurting others, I mean in five years you have not even for one nano-second questioned yourself and said,"hey is what I'm doing here helping the general population". Do you even care?
Think....
Of course I care
Bullshit.
that is why I am here.
Bullshit
Would you want the readers to just receive one perspective from fornits? If you visited a website where you were trying to get an idea about an industry wouldn’t you want to be in a forum that had representatives from differing opinions?
This website does not represent the industry in any way, shape or form. It's a fucking message board for survivors to talk about their experiences. It just happened to catch on and programs can't have their secrets being discovered so they came over to do damage control. What they were 'exposed' to here (what you refer to as attacks) is a fraction and I mean a tiny sliver of a fraction of what kids are exposed to in programs every single day. They couldn't take it so they left. The kids, unfortunately, can't just leave. Then you show up and because of your marketing experience and, well.....because you're kind of a dick, you've been able to handle these "attacks" ::) and stuck around to protect your interests.
If you were going to buy a car you wouldn’t want to just talk to those people who were in car accidents would you? You would want to talk to people who were satisfied with their purchase also so that you could get a more broader and balanced perspective.
Please, for the love of all things good and true...........STOP THE ANALOGIES!!!!!!!!! You're really terrible at them.
And, AGAIN.......this is not a forum that represents the TTI in any way, so there is no need for you to provide anything at all. We're talking about our experiences. You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
Whooter, even in the extremely unlikely event that you are just who you claim to be, a concerned and satisfied program parent, it doesn't matter. Being the selfish incompetent parent who does this to their child is NOT the same thing as actually being that child. Are you delusional? What do you think you are accomplishing here, aside from showcasing the kind of deviants who advocate these places?
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You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
I actually have more experience than you do Anne and know more about todays programs. Your information is from 30 years ago and just does not apply here. Its a great history lesson but not very helpful to parents looking for facts on todays industry.
...
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You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
I actually have more experience than you do Anne and know more about todays programs. Your information is from 30 years
It's from both 30 years ago and recently. You know NOTHING about what I know of programs today and even less of programs themselves, as you've never been inside one.
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This website does not represent the industry in any way, shape or form. It's a fucking message board for survivors to talk about their experiences. It just happened to catch on and programs can't have their secrets being discovered so they came over to do damage control. What they were 'exposed' to here (what you refer to as attacks) is a fraction and I mean a tiny sliver of a fraction of what kids are exposed to in programs every single day. They couldn't take it so they left. The kids, unfortunately, can't just leave. Then you show up and because of your marketing experience and, well.....because you're kind of a dick, you've been able to handle these "attacks" ::) and stuck around to protect your interests.
You have it backwards, Anne. I think we can both agree that I sustain much more attacks on a daily bases here on fornits than anyone does (day after day) and I do not complain very much.
But look what happens when I attack back! Ha,Ha,Ha, We see crying all over the forum of how I come here to fornits and pick on poor abuse survivors.
The double standard shows its head fairly often here.
...
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Whooter just because you have a cool avatar doesn't give you the right to come here and badger program survivors like this. You have been particularly vicious lately. Why is that? I can only guess that your enrollment numbers at the programs are down and you have alot of $ at stake. Just a guess. If you keep this up i might be forced to pirate your avatar. It just aint right that you should have the freshest one. Just sayin.
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This website does not represent the industry in any way, shape or form. It's a fucking message board for survivors to talk about their experiences. It just happened to catch on and programs can't have their secrets being discovered so they came over to do damage control. What they were 'exposed' to here (what you refer to as attacks) is a fraction and I mean a tiny sliver of a fraction of what kids are exposed to in programs every single day. They couldn't take it so they left. The kids, unfortunately, can't just leave. Then you show up and because of your marketing experience and, well.....because you're kind of a dick, you've been able to handle these "attacks" ::) and stuck around to protect your interests.
You have it backwards, Anne. I think we can both agree that I sustain much more attacks on a daily bases here on fornits than anyone does (day after day) and I do not complain very much.
Can you read? She said that any "attacks" you sustain here are NOTHING compared to what the kids go through in these "schools" or programs.
But look what happens when I attack back! Ha,Ha,Ha, We see crying all over the forum of how I come here to fornits and pick on poor abuse survivors.
Are those the "poor abuse survivors" you just told us you care so much about? Your compassion is underwhelming.
The double standard shows its head fairly often here.
There is no double standard. You have never been in one of these places and therefore have no right to argue with any of us. You are an apologist for criminals, and probably a criminal yourself. You obviously do not mind the treatment you receive here, you might even like it. Seek help.
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:twofinger: Get a Life Whooter! :twofinger:
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Are those the "poor abuse survivors" you just told us you care so much about? Your compassion is underwhelming.
No, I do care deeply about kids who have been abused. I dont care too much for people who attack me and fabricate lies about me... (smile)
There is no double standard. You have never been in one of these places and therefore have no right to argue with any of us. You are an apologist for criminals, and probably a criminal yourself. You obviously do not mind the treatment you receive here, you might even like it. Seek help.
See, Shady, the double standard is that many here feel they can talk about program parents and what their motives are and how they feel (When in fact they never had an at risk child that was placed in a program). There are those here who claim to know all about the industry and the owners (When none of them have ever owned a program or ran one)...... Many criticize EdCons when they have never been in their shoes. The double standard is so ingrained in people like you that you cannot even see it.
So why shouldnt I be able to talk about what it is like to be in a program and share my opinions?
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So why shouldnt I be able to talk about what it is like to be in a program and share my opinions?
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Because your opinions are not just invalid, they are actually offensive and insulting to nearly everyone else here. What were Hitler's motives? How did he feel? Who cares? He was an evil man who committed unspeakable atrocities against the entire human race, just like your buddies. We do not have to be evil dictators to pass judgement on him and we don't need to be child abusing criminals to pass judgement on program apologists like you.
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You have no experience in programs, so quit pretending you know a goddamned thing about them.
I actually have more experience than you do Anne and know more about todays programs. Your information is from 30 years ago and just does not apply here. Its a great history lesson but not very helpful to parents looking for facts on todays industry.
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OOOOOOoooooooK. So you have made your point. You know more about today's programs. Good, really good. What does this knowledge you have about current programs doing to help us. Since this web site is dedicated to helping troubled victims of programs how is all your intellectual prowess in the TTI field helping the victims here. Now I know, you know there are victims because you have acknowledged that there are abusive programs now and before.
Whooter, this site is all about helping one another. For me it has been reading the stories, experiences and the endless quoted articles on abuse that went on in programs and how to recognize the PTSD-Symptoms.
I'll tell you, you can be a asshole and I don't know why. Everyone and I mean everyone has asked you to stop, that what you are doing is offending them but you won't, you press on.
Whooter it is psychologically impossible for you to recognize and assimilate what survivors are relating to here, any attempt will be consider suspect to being disingenuous. Why? Because we inherently know if you have not endured the torment 24/7 and been terminally scarred, anything you say in defense of programs hurts beyond description.
I just can not believe you can't see this, I believe you can but you make a decision to blink and turn your head.
Whooter, I know you are a spiritual man from your posts. So I know, you know somewhere inside of you, what you are doing here is wrong, very wrong.
Think Whooter......
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OOOOOOoooooooK. So you have made your point. You know more about today's programs. Good, really good. What does this knowledge you have about current programs doing to help us. Since this web site is dedicated to helping troubled victims of programs how is all your intellectual prowess in the TTI field helping the victims here. Now I know, you know there are victims because you have acknowledged that there are abusive programs now and before.
People here are not being honest, Heretik. If you have spent time outside of fornits and met graduates of these programs you would know that there are many kids that benefit from the industry. If this site was truly dedicated to talking about the industry and the survivors why does everyone lie to each other. Why hide the information which shows the positive side of the industry? Why are the studies and books ignored or stamped marketing or propaganda that don’t show the programs dark side? Why don’t they accepts all survivors, those who were abused as well as those who were not?
Whooter, this site is all about helping one another. For me it has been reading the stories, experiences and the endless quoted articles on abuse that went on in programs and how to recognize the PTSD-Symptoms.
For me it has been recognizing that there are programs which abuse kids and have models which are inherently abusive by design.
I'll tell you, you can be a asshole and I don't know why. Everyone and I mean everyone has asked you to stop, that what you are doing is offending them but you won't, you press on.
I have also asked people to stop offending me. I think if you have read here enough you will see that I tend to stave off attacks more than I attack.
Whooter it is psychologically impossible for you to recognize and assimilate what survivors are relating to here, any attempt will be consider suspect to being disingenuous. Why? Because we inherently know if you have not endured the torment 24/7 and been terminally scarred, anything you say in defense of programs hurts beyond description.
I just can not believe you can't see this, I believe you can but you make a decision to blink and turn your head.
Whooter, I know you are a spiritual man from your posts. So I know, you know somewhere inside of you, what you are doing here is wrong, very wrong.
Think Whooter......
Why should it hurt people if I defend programs? I don’t defend all programs, but I defend the generalization that they are all the same or all abusive. Why would you want to defend mis information from being sent out? Is it fair to the survivors who did well to give the industry a bad name? Dismissing a success story as brainwashing is no better than dismissing a abuse story as embellishing or lying.
If people want to discuss their stories from the days of straight that is fine, there is a forum for that and I don’t post there. But even the novice would agree that trying to compare the programs of 30 years ago to todays programs isn’t accurate.
Open your eyes Heretik, watch the reaction of the regulars when information comes in here which shows anything positive about the industry whether it be a survivors story or a recent study or survey. Readers who come to fornits are getting short changed in the information department and I dont think that is right.
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Why should it hurt people if I defend programs? I don’t defend all programs, but I defend the generalization that they are all the same or all abusive. Why would you want to defend mis information from being sent out? Is it fair to the survivors who did well to give the industry a bad name? Dismissing a success story as brainwashing is no better than dismissing a abuse story as embellishing or lying.
Wrong. We have all been the victims of this abusive brainwashing process. You have not.
If people want to discuss their stories from the days of straight that is fine, there is a forum for that and I don’t post there. But even the novice would agree that trying to compare the programs of 30 years ago to todays programs isn’t accurate.
ONLY a novice would think that 30 years MUST have improved things in these snake pits.
Open your eyes Heretik, watch the reaction of the regulars when information comes in here which shows anything positive about the industry whether it be a survivors story or a recent study or survey. Readers who come to fornits are getting short changed in the information department and I dont think that is right.
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Bullshit. This isn't Wikipedia. Anyone coming to this forum for information is looking for OUR point of view. Not the point of view of program apologists like you. That is what the DFAF website, and the many others like it, are for.
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Wrong. We have all been the victims of this abusive brainwashing process. You have not.
I dont believe this. Not all programs are the same, see you are spreading mis information as we speak, Shady. Do you see why I am needed here?
ONLY a novice would think that 30 years MUST have improved things in these snake pits.
I think we agree here. I dont assume things automatically improve some things get worse. But we all know that things can and do change over 30 years. If you had 2 people in front of you one that had current knowledge and another who had knowledge from 30 years ago which would you choose?
Bullshit. This isn't Wikipedia. Anyone coming to this forum for information is looking for OUR point of view. Not the point of view of program apologists like you. That is what the DFAF website, and the many others like it, are for.
Actually people are looking for accurate information.
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Wrong. We have all been the victims of this abusive brainwashing process. You have not.
I dont believe this. Not all programs are the same, see you are spreading mis information as we speak, Shady. Do you see why I am needed here?
ONLY a novice would think that 30 years MUST have improved things in these snake pits.
I think we agree here. I dont assume things automatically improve some things get worse. But we all know that things can and do change over 30 years. If you had 2 people in front of you one that had current knowledge and another who had knowledge from 30 years ago which would you choose?
Bullshit. This isn't Wikipedia. Anyone coming to this forum for information is looking for OUR point of view. Not the point of view of program apologists like you. That is what the DFAF website, and the many others like it, are for.
Actually people are looking for accurate information.
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And you ride in on a white horse to correct all of our inaccuracies! Whooter to the rescue!
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Actually people are looking for accurate information.
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In my short amount of time here I have had the chance to read many of your posts. I have seen you lie about people, myself included, and as of yet I have never seen you provide any links to any real information to back up your claims. So exactly who are you to discern what is and what is not accurate?
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Actually people are looking for accurate information.
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In my short amount of time here I have had the chance to read many of your posts. I have seen you lie about people, myself included, and as of yet I have never seen you provide any links to any real information to back up your claims. So exactly who are you to discern what is and what is not accurate?
I have people lie about me also, call me an industry person, say I make money off the industry and tell people that my name is John Reuben. So lying seems to be a integral part of fornits, Gonzotherapy. You have not seen any of my links because you were not here then. I never knew you when you attended a CEDU school, but that doesnt mean you didnt go there.
If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information. If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also. I know this because I have seen kids who did well.
Imagine for a minute that someone said "Not one child has ever been abused in a program". Its such a bold statement that we know the poster has no knowledge to base this on, so we can conclude the information is highly likely to be inaccurate or fabricated.
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I have people lie about me also, call me an industry person, say I make money off the industry and tell people that my name is John Reuben. So lying seems to be a integral part of fornits, Gonzotherapy. You have not seen any of my links because you were not here then. I never knew you when you attended a CEDU school, but that doesnt mean you didnt go there.
If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information. If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also. I know this because I have seen kids who did well.
Imagine for a minute that someone said "Not one child has ever been abused in a program". Its such a bold statement that we know the poster has no knowledge to base this on, so we can conclude the information is highly likely to be inaccurate or fabricated.
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From my limited experience I have seen you blatantly lie and fabricate information to discredit anti-program people. Now, what would be your motivation? I mean seriously, you are here every day, all day. Either you are wealthy and extremely bored and and a little fucked in the head if this is how you choose to entertain yourself. Or you have a job that requires little or none of your attention. Or option three which makes the most sense, this is your job.
Regardless, I have argued many points with you. I provide links to verify my info, you have never provided a link with any sort of accurate information. At least not that I have seen. And I might add, if this is your job and I was your boss, I would fire your dumb ass. Really, you make yourself look way more mentally challenged than anyone else possibly could. :ftard:
Since I am, of course, on the opposite side of your arguments (and to be honest I hesitate even to grace them with that level of achievement), KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! :tup:
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From my limited experience I have seen you blatantly lie and fabricate information to discredit anti-program people. Now, what would be your motivation?
You have also seen many people fabricate and lie about me. So my motivation may be to let them see what it is like to be lied about maybe? lol People have a free reign here to say whatever they like about me without providing any proof or a link. But if I say that you never attended a program and are lying then all of a sudden people are looking for a link of some sort. Interesting how that works isnt it?
Regardless, I have argued many points with you. I provide links to verify my info, you have never provided a link with any sort of accurate information. At least not that I have seen.
I typically provide links ad nuaseum sometimes, Gonz, especially if it is a study that we are discussing. I have had people plead with me to stop linking to the study or source because they are tired of reading it or talking about it.
And I might add, if this is your job and I was your boss, I would fire your dumb ass. Really, you make yourself look way more mentally challenged than anyone else possibly could. :ftard:
Exactly, It would be great to earn money this way. But really who would pay me to do this? Its funny that you mention it because many people here think I get paid to do this. Now who is mentally challenged? lol Do you see what I mean?
Since I am, of course, on the opposite side of your arguments (and to be honest I hesitate even to grace them with that level of achievement), KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK! :tup:
Thanks, Gonzotherapy, and try to keep the information accurate on your end. Stay away from the Gulag, kidnapping dialog to keep your stories credible. You have been fairly good so far.
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[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information. If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also. I know this because I have seen kids who did well.
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So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.
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Exactly, It would be great to earn money this way. But really who would pay me to do this? Its funny that you mention it because many people here think I get paid to do this. Now who is mentally challenged? lol Do you see what I mean?
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Ummm. I don't know, maybe the billion dollar business that is getting stabbed in the ass by the invention of the internet and availability of information? They might pay someone to attempt to discredit the people who are exposing them. No, that would never happen, just like they wouldn't pay government officials to protect their interests.
http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/ (http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/)
And for the record, no, I do not see what you mean. At all.
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[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information. If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also. I know this because I have seen kids who did well.
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So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.
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No, just be honest! Dont try to bury the good stories/aspects of the industry and dont try to pretend that every kid in every program is getting abused. Its as phony as the old kidnapping cliche. I admit that kids get abused in programs. I take a moderate stance on the industry. How many people on fornits can say the same thing? How many can say that some kids do well while others get abused?
There seems to always be this dominating extremest attitude formulated from a fringe hatred group mentality that prevails here. Why are people afraid to step out in the open, think for themselves and discuss and welcome survivors who had a good experience and let them share their views equally without fear of being labeled as brainwashed or damaged?
something to think about anyway.....
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[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information. If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also. I know this because I have seen kids who did well.
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So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.
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No, just be honest! Dont try to bury the good stories/aspects of the industry and pretend that every kid in every program is getting abused. Its as phony as the old kidnapping cliche. I admit that kids get abused in programs. I take a moderate stance on the industry. How many people on fornits can say the same thing? How many can say that some kids do well while others get abused?
There seems to always be this dominating extremest attitude formulated from a fringe hatred group mentality that prevails here. Why are people afraid to step out in the open, think for themselves and discuss and welcome survivors who had a good experience and let them share their views equally without fear of being labeled as brainwashed or damaged?
something to think about anyway.....
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Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.
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Exactly, It would be great to earn money this way. But really who would pay me to do this? Its funny that you mention it because many people here think I get paid to do this. Now who is mentally challenged? lol Do you see what I mean?
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Ummm. I don't know, maybe the billion dollar business that is getting stabbed in the ass by the invention of the internet and availability of information? They might pay someone to attempt to discredit the people who are exposing them. No, that would never happen, just like they wouldn't pay government officials to protect their interests.
http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/ (http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/)
And for the record, no, I do not see what you mean. At all.
But that doesnt mean everyone is the same or all programs follow the same path. This is where everyone here gets stuck. Would it be accurate or fair to paint the Public school system as this?:
Picture of you average public school student
(http://http://www.wingtv.net/thorn2006/columbine2.jpg)
Columbine High school
Does this represent the average school experience?
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Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.
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It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.
If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer? Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.
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Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.
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It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.
If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer? Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.
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So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?
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So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?
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Awake, I dont see how you get that point of view from my post. I dont change my views based on other peoples view towards me. I was just giving you a different perspective to think about.
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Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.
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It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.
If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer? Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.
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So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?
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Awake, I dont see how you get that point of view from my post. I dont change my views based on other peoples view towards me. I was just giving you a different perspective to think about.
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Well it seems to me, by your statement, that you are saying that the kids are either being brainwashed, or just saying it to get back at their parents. Since no one else here seems to be supporting the latter position, you are obligating yourself to take the role of ‘devils advocate’. Right?
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Well it seems to me, by your statement, that you are saying that the kids are either being brainwashed, or just saying it to get back at their parents. Since no one else here seems to be supporting the latter position, you are obligating yourself to take the role of ‘devils advocate’. Right?
What I mean is that if a kid says he did well in a program why label him as brainwashed? We dont know if he was brainwashed or not.
Its the same as saying ever kid who says he was abused is saying it to get back at his parents. We dont know that either, maybe the kid was abused.
Either statement can be true but doesn't necessarily have to be.
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I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?
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I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?
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No, of course not. Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.
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I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?
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No, of course not. Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.
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Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
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Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
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Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different. But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.
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I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?
No, of course not. Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.
Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.
ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought are based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.
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Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different. But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.
You don't find it unethical to utilize thought reform practices on adolescents which are based on methods of "re-programming" prisoners of war?
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Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
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Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different. But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.
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That’s right. So I wonder if you also notice the evolution of thought reform methods in troubled teen programs with that of Humanistic methods, like various encounter groups, est, and Lifespring? This would be an innovative area for the TTI to explore new possibilities in thought reform. There's no denying, it has a great influence on how they practice today. Do you know anything about this?
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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31368&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31368&start=0) - thought reform
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viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31647&start=150 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31647&start=150)
Whooter wrote:
But that doesnt mean everyone is the same or all programs follow the same path. This is where everyone here gets stuck. Would it be accurate or fair to paint the Public school system as this?:
Whooter, where you get lost is you think posters came here to debate/argue, we did not. There is but one motivation,"to purge" and commiserate. We have no inclination to entertain any kind of "variance of opinion" with you. Actually no one I can see starts out even wanting to debate with you, really what is happening is the posters find themselves defending what they are exposing here. There personal story comes under attack and they retaliate. Just reading many of your posts here can feel like a "attack" against our vulnerable admissions.
We did not come here to listen to your views on programs that are successful, I am truly pleased there are programs that in your opinion help. I just believe as everyone else here that you picked possibly the wrong venue to rant about it. "We" do not want to hear about a successful program while were pouring our heart out about our abuse that we finally came in touch with, 30 years later for some, earlier for many. Do you really think anybody can handle your constant antagonism while there trying to deal with horrific memories with new friends here.
WTF, Whooter, are you this clueless. These sites are not for a jousters like you. People have already been damaged, how much more do you want to do. Don't turn away Whooter, you are hurting people here. That is a truth.
It is almost blasphemy to keep saying to Anne, Samara, Gonzo, Bruce and others that they are stuck, in denial, stubborn or whatever other characterizations you want to say because they want you to stop your immature posturing here.
Your subject of discussion has never been on the table, ever. We don't care, we do have a right to say this. We do have a right to purge without you intervening with your obnoxious remarks.
Whooter, I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to explain that your actions here have hurt people for the last 5 years and continue too.
As Gonzo, I have not been here long, so I haven't had much interaction with you. I don't have to, I don't want to. I have seen your kind, your here to disrupt whether it is professional or personal it doesn't matter. What matters is the consequences of your actions.
If you had any heart you would stop.
Listen....
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Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.
ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought is based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.
But just because the process can be traced back to procedures used during war time on prisoners of war doesnt mean the process used today is abusive.
Electric Shock was once used as torture and now is being used to alter bad behavior (it is still controversial and some consider it torture in JRC). but it is not the same level as they used during war time.
They use electric shock to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions.
Electric shock is being used to help people lose weight etc.
My point being that there are varying levels of use, not all having to be torturous.
I dont see how Peer on peer confrontation can be considered abusive or brainwashing. I guess it could be abusive but it doesnt have to be.
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My apologies, Heretik, but I think you need to show Whooter a bit more sympathy for the way he is acting. Most people here don’t know, but he already did attempt therapy for it, and gave up on himself. Truthfully, it is hard to watch someone in this kind of downward spiral, and I feel for him.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442)
You see, Whooter, when you make a commitment to get well, and you don’t follow through, you are just cheating yourself. I think it this program could have done great things for you. I know it’s hard, but if you had not chosen to run away from your issues you would not still be working so hard, now, to hide from yourself around here. Be strong, and don’t be slackin on working on your self esteem issues Whooter, seriously. I don’t wan’t to hear excuses, you will get no sympathy from me. You know that viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30)
Get rid of the negativity, and self doubt and feel better about yourself, OK?
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Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?
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Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?
I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.
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Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?
I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.
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The use a CEDU type model. MBA was investigated for many things. One of them being where a girl had to "role play" something sexual in nature.
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My apologies, Heretik, but I think you need to show Whooter a bit more sympathy for the way he is acting. Most people here don’t know, but he already did attempt therapy for it, and gave up on himself. Truthfully, it is hard to watch someone in this kind of downward spiral, and I feel for him.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442)
You see, Whooter, when you make a commitment to get well, and you don’t follow through, you are just cheating yourself. I think it this program could have done great things for you. I know it’s hard, but if you had not chosen to run away from your issues you would not still be working so hard, now, to hide from yourself around here. Be strong, and don’t be slackin on working on your self esteem issues Whooter, seriously. I don’t wan’t to hear excuses, you will get no sympathy from me. You know that viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30)
Get rid of the negativity, and self doubt and feel better about yourself, OK?
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…. I almost Forgot! This is important, don’t you think?
DOUBLE BIND: Mind control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30423 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30423)
…. I sorta think so.
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Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?
I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.
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The use a CEDU type model. MBA was investigated for many things. One of them being where a girl had to "role play" something sexual in nature.
I was in a program (CEDU clone) that used a nearly identical skit to that described by the girl at MBA, down to the French maid outfit. That particular example could be caused by direct communication between MBA and the program or it could be inherited from CEDU's later revisions to Propheets. It can't be a coincidence. As soon as I read that story I knew the girl was telling the truth. If she was telling a lie, it would not have been identical to what I had witnessed.
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Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.
ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought is based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.
But just because the process can be traced back to procedures used during war time on prisoners of war doesnt mean the process used today is abusive.
Electric Shock was once used as torture and now is being used to alter bad behavior (it is still controversial and some consider it torture in JRC). but it is not the same level as they used during war time.
They use electric shock to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions.
Electric shock is being used to help people lose weight etc.
My point being that there are varying levels of use, not all having to be torturous.
I dont see how Peer on peer confrontation can be considered abusive or brainwashing. I guess it could be abusive but it doesnt have to be.
Because the process of using a gauntlet of PEERS to modify the behavior, attitude or thoughts of an individual is abusive in and of itself. Do you not see that?
Perhaps you are uniquely immune to such persuasive tactics. I do allow that some folks may be more susceptible to it or more easily injured by it than others.
Re. your analogy of electric shock used at JRC vs. other uses, e.g., "to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions," etc.: do NOTE that the examples you cite for comparison are all voluntary choices which the recipient can opt out of at any time. NOT SO for the kids at JRC, and this lack of respect for their autonomy also appears to be a large part of their trauma.
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You are fairly new here, Shady. I take great pleasure in pointing out that Lenny and Squiggy (Bruce and DJ) wasted years of their lives trolling me only to find out they were chasing a ghost. Neither of these guys were abused in a Program. Bruce spent less than a month inside the place, they made him clean up his own mess and he ran away and DJ was staff at HLA until they did a background check and found out he had felony convictions then he had to reinvent himself elsewhere. All is good,no one is getting hurt, no abuse victim is being antagonized.
Whoops. You can always tell when Johnny's on the ropes when the lies start to come out. He has no actual evidence to speak of in regards to his claims, but hey, when has that ever stopped him before? Don't worry Johnny, I'm sure you'll convince someone of something.......somewhere.
Speaking of which, everyone is still waiting to see if you can provide a link to a survivor lying about being abused. We've all been patient with you John, but time really is up. You've come up empty. We all told you that those of us who experienced these programs (not you) have no reason to lie about the abuse, as the truth is always bad enough. You've consistently come up empty and have provided nothing.
The question has been answered: Survivors do not lie. Programmies and those who have a fiduciary interest in them (John Reuben) do.
What's next?
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I cannot find definition for aplogy
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I cannot find definition for aplogy
Oh... I think there's just a space missing in there, as in: "a plogy."
Here's a definition from Urban Dictionary:
1. Plogy (http://http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Plogy) · 2 up, 2 down
Someone who is not entirly fat but have a bit of body fat around them
Jennifer : Youn look quite plogy since the last time I saw you.
Diasy: Well I need to gain some weight I was 7 stone last time; up to 9 now.
poggy ploggy fat gain weight
by AndreValenitne · 18 May 11, 2009[/list]
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Once again,thank you Bear.
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Appy polly loggies.
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I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools. They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea
Actually, that was Senator Sam Ervin that made that comparison......but, AGAIN, you already knew that and decided to spin it anyway.
This is the kind of shit that he does, right up there. "They" were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea. He failed to mention that it wasn't "us" that made that comparison. He KNEW that it was Senator Sam Ervin, because I've posted it many times and others have as well. He omits what doesn't fit his agenda
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
You've never provided any credible studies or statistics. What you've provided have been "exit surveys" filled out by parents.
He also does this......states that he's provided "credible studies or stats" but KNOWS that the only things he's ever provided were, to my knowledge, a paper written by a grad student and an exit survey filled out by parents.
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Don't forget his own "data" a bunch of nonsense he claimed to have attended a meeting in Chicago on that had nothing to do with reality.