Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 02, 2006, 01:11:00 AM
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my daughter is 12. She sneaks out all the time. I have nailed the windows shut, put deadbolts on the doors and I sleep in front of her door on the floor, but she still manages to get past me and out the door. I could chain her to the bed, but I'd be arrested for child abuse.
When she sneaks out, she comes home covered in hickies. She told me that she sleeps with anyone she meets on the streets, as long as they will give her cigarettes or beer. Last time she slept with 3 different men, or so she told me.
She has been kicked out of school and also the alternative school. She won't get up to go anyways. I can fight with her all I want, but she won't go. I cannot physically drag her into school, she'll just leave again and I'd get in trouble for "abusing" her.
I have to work. If I don't work, the bills don't get paid and then we will all be on the street. Once I go to work, she is out the door and there's no way to stop it. If I truly lock her in, she'll just break a window. I can't leave her without a means of getting out. What if there is a fire or something. She did start a fire at school, that is why they kicked her out.
I have taken her to counselors. She won't talk to them, if I can get her to go. I go anyways to try to find a way to deal with her. They told me to make a list of rules and consequences so I did. It doesn't matter because she does what she wants too anyways, but I tried. I can't enforce a consequence when she won't allow me too. I have tried many times to just talk to her, see what the problem might be. She just calls me names.
This kid is going to die. One night she will meet a total freak who will dump her dead body in a dumpster. Even if she lives, she is hurting herself so badly. How would you feel if you were basically being a hooker at 12 years old? How would you feel if you had no education past 6th grade because your parents couldn't make you go to school?
I know about programs and all I can think is that they can keep my kid safe. I can't. I cannot keep her in the house. I do not have a 24 hour staff to watch her. I am not in the boonies where she has nowhere to go.
I have two other kids, one older, one younger. They have never had problems like this. I do not drink or do drugs or have boyfriends. I just go to work, come home and spend time with my family. We used to have lots of fun together, but not anymore. My daugter is abusive to us all. She screams names at her siblings, hits them if I am not there and in general makes life miserable for everyone.
So if programs are not the answer...what am I supposed to do?
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:nworthy: :nworthy:
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If all you say is true, you HAVE to protect the other children! Start with some sort of outward bounds program or even just a month of YMCA camp. Those options are not seen as punishment, but as fun summer activities. But I must warn you, summer camp gave me and my other children breathing room, but it didn't change my child's behavior once home. Your daughter's behavior is so off for a twelve year old you may really need to have her committed to a phsyciatric hospital for 30 days to be evaluated. Most insurances will pay for that. Good luck. I know it is hard.
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I'd say you should have her locked up right away. If you don't have enough money for a program, frame her for a crime so the state will lock her up. That is what I did with my kid, and he is currently in Juvenille Hall for grand theft. I wish I had enough for escorts and programs but I don't, and so I asked for advice on another online forum with struggling parents and they gave me this advice. Go to an electronics store, and steal a few high-end items. Place these items in your child's room, then call the police and say you suspect the child of stealing. Have the child arrested, and sent away. It's important you lock this kid up NOW before it is too late. Lock her up until she is 18, then if she wants to whore herself out, let her. It's not about the child, IT IS ABOUT YOU! Improve your life today, frame your child for theft and protect those other children!
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On 2006-05-01 22:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
" :nworthy: :nworthy: "
As usual you add no value. Where is your anger ?
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My anger is stored away safely in an airport locker, to be used only when necessary. Where is your anger?
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Outward Bound won't take such a kid unless the kid wants to go, and a therapist recommends it. They do have a trek for kids who are "at risk" but it will not do a mental patient any good; or a kid who is incompliant. They have to want it, for it to help.
You might wanyt to consider getting your daughter a mental health evaluation. You can petition the school to provide it, as she is having so much trouble. They are federally mandated to provide an education to your daughter - and as she is having such a problem they can be forced to provide the needed evaluations.
You should call your state capital's education dept. and request Special Education advocate. You will need their help in pressuring the schools system to comply.
Once you get her evaluated (assuming they find she has any kind of mental disorder)she will be eligible for an IEP. You can then insist the state find her a RTC where she can be educated and receive therapy. You might find you will need to make her a ward of the state - but this does NOT mean you will be surrendering parental rights. That's a lie they tell you to get you to back off.
They will tell you many lies trying to get you to back off and go away. So, you will need to educate yourself in regard to the federal mandates and your rights as a parent and her rights as a child. You will need to be able to ague effectively and stand your ground. This is not an easy process. States have a category for families that need this state placement, but through no fault of their own. It is NOT the same as having the state take your child. What they call it, varies from state to state, but they all have it. It is used when a family is unable to keep a child safe in their home through no fault of their own - and this seems to apply to you.
The first step here, is to file a beyond control petition. You can do this with out having the IEP in place. In fact, it may result in getting you a social worker who can help force the schools to comply. Also, it can result in the state ordering a mental evaluation and paying for it or charging you based on the slidding scale. You'll get a court date and the judge will assign you a social worker. If your lucky they will be good at the job; and if unlucky they will be lazy liars. But again, they are state employees and you can file complaints that will have an effect.
When you file the petition, and when you go to court - have with you all the writes ups from the school; and any records from her therapist. You are probably entitled to one free copy of her records. So, if she is still seeing someone don't request a copy of her file until they quite seeing her - but do get a copy of her file from everyone she sees - and keep it in a safe place. A safe deposit box is best. Same with each and every write she gets at school. You will need to to prove she needs help that you can not provide in the home. Simply having a business card from all the therapist to line up and say we saw this one, and this one, and this one - can be effective in getting the judged to see you need a greater level of help than a family is able to provide.
Now - Maybe she doesn't need an RTC - but it sounds like maybe she does. Please do Not make the mistake of thinking you will get better care from a private paid, private owned program, than you can from the state operated programs. This is a massively inaccurate notion many people have.
The state run facilities are crowded and hard to get into. They do have incompetent staff. No doubt the also have mean and hurtful people on staff. But they Do also have competent and caring people; and more importantly - they do have LOTS of oversight! If your child is mismanaged or mistreated you can file a complaint and find it effective. None of this is so if you go the private route.
Also, in the state paid and operated RTCs they must have the individual plan in place and they can be watched to make sure they follow it. So that your child receives therapy appropriate for what ever it is that ails her.
In these private places no such individuality of treatment (or even personhood) exist. If their treatment modality does not meet your daughter's needs, her needs will not be met - and she will come out far, far worse then she went in. This is Especially true if she does in fact have a mental disorder!
If your a family with money, the sate may require to pick up part of the tab. They run it on a sliding scale. I believe you'll find it will be far less than these private run hell holes.
You might consider moving on this ASAP. It is a slow process. You can expedite it if you are firm and unrelenting. If you are quite and patient they will forget all about you.
All this being said - some statre operate boot camps and the results can be tragic. Again, you MUST educate yourself so you know what kind of therapy is useful for your daughters situation. Harsh and punitve treatment will only make her much worse. You must be able to explain this and demand something more along the lines of true mental health care.
One last thing - *if* your daughter is mentally ill, you will need to be prepaired to help her deal with the social service system for years to come. All these records I mention can be very important in applying for SSI and food stamps and housing - So get them and protect them, in case you need them in the furture to get your daughter continuing help.
* [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-05-02 07:35 ]
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On 2006-05-02 01:06:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I would say buy a leather belt and give her a good arse whupping but I suspect that is hardly the answer you are looking for.
I won't pretend to be an expert at raising kids, but I can suggest that there are other methods open.
My only suggestion off the top of my head is something along the lines of Outward Bound, or Nols to give you and your daughter some breathing space. After a few weeks to get your bearings then you may well be able to makes some well thought out decisions rather than being rushed into something you may regret for the rest of your life.
I favor Nols or Outward bound as they are mainly intensive summer camp programs to get a kid some time hiking around in the woods. Nothing cheesy or theraputic about it, just a kid with a group of other kids doing some hiking.
There are also some other programs for the child and parent that put you both out in the woods and help you to both come to some sort of understanding, but I think first you may want some time to have some peace and quiet with your other kids.
Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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I'm sure some Outward Bound Programs are OK but my daughter will tell you that she actually learned to take drugs at Outward Bound- her first experience with drugs- They never checked their bags or checked in any meds and my kid spent her solo whacked out on sleeping pills to get through it. Wow, wasn't that a great learning experience for a kid on the edge. Also, Outward Bound is VERY expensive and has absolutely zero therapeutic componenets.
You know, you rag on "program parents" for recommending or simply supporting some of the TBS schools they've actually had experience with. Stick to what you know- other than the Outward Bound Program that is court mandated and almost impossible to get a spot in, the program is detrimental to kids on the edge.
As for the woman who wrote the original post-
my heart breaks for you. I've been there. I took action and now I have a happy, stable kid in college. Protect your other kids anyway you can---they are taking the brunt of this with you.
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The outward bound program for kids at risk (Assent, I think they call it) would be considerably more strict about what the kids had in their Back packs, than the other programs they offer.
Outward bound could be a great thing for a kid who is just slacking off a little - and who enjoys the out doors.
They are very careful about the kids they allow into their Assent program. There is a strict set of guidelines and they do follow them.
Any kid who wants to can attend the open courses - with in the age guidelines they give.
And they do have a scholarship program. So if anyone has a ten or young adult who might be interested - apply for the scholarship.
And YMCA camps - I do like that option for most kids who are just kind of goof offs - but no real problems. My son had a great time at camp. The people there are mostly good people - and mostly young people with a lot of energy to keep their young charges very busy. Again, they are expensive - but they too have a scholarship program.
The 12 year old about may actually do well at a YMCA camp. Many of thes kids behave very differently away from home and it might be good for her. But if she acts out at camp they will send her home. They are not set up to safley handel the behavior of a seriously troubled child. But realy, when I think about it - it might be good for her. She probably would not be at all the same kid as she is at home. My concern is the sexual acting out and the threats - the Y will not try to deal with that. But, she may not act that way at camp. And that would be good - b/c it would help her learn she can control her bahavior if she tries. The risk is the Mom could loose her tuition. I don't think it is refundable if they ask a child to leave.
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Maybe she should go to tennis camp!!!
Do you have kids TSW?
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OMG
This is a kid, a 12 year old kid, selling her body! She's probably doing drugs too but the Mom doesn't know that yet. Do you honestly think she'll happily go to the YMCA with her lunch box?
That may have worked when she was 6 but this kid is obviously out of control. The first camp counselor to correct her will know doubt get abused in the same way her family has been.
Buzz, you have some great ideas. I think your recommendations are more preventative. This mom needs some crisis management.
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First step is to stabilize your household and protect all your children. This is not something she will just grow out of anytime soon and the effect to your other children could be very damaging. This may snowball very quickly if left to its own momentum.
I am not familiar with the specific outward bound programs you speak of, but you will need something with a therapeutic component to address the issues she has been trying to deal with and get past.
Busskill made some excellent suggestions. If there is any way she will agree to getting evaluated, this would be a great first step.
SUWS of the Carolinas (Therapeutic wilderness camp) is an excellent place to stabilize some children. They can also have someone perform an evaluation while she is there. I am sure there are others but this is the only one I have personal experience with. It is expensive but the staff is well trained and very compassionate. Your daughter would be in safe hands for a few weeks until you can determine her next step and stabilize your household.
But like others have said ?Protect your other children? Don?t forget about them, they are taking a huge hit.
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How about send her to me for the summer, and I will put her to work on our ranch!!!!! Always could use the extra help!!!!
J/K, I'm sorry! Am I really supposed to take this person seriously?!!
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Exorcism?
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On 2006-05-02 10:23:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"How about send her to me for the summer, and I will put her to work on our ranch!!!!! Always could use the extra help!!!!
J/K, I'm sorry! Am I really supposed to take this person seriously?!!"
Ah, nice offer, a few months on a ranch might be just what she needs, fresh air, staying busy, work, all self esteem building stuff.
I'll help with the airfare.
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ok, so i agree the kid appears to be a mess from what the parent says here. she probably needs some more direction, however i dont think every step must be harsh to accomplish anything. i dont know this girl, but i can identify with some of her actions. i whored myself for fucking heroin at that age (not proud by the way) but i can pretty much garentee if someone had reached out to help me in a manner that wasnt punitive, and indeed contained a 'fun' element, as a 12 year old i personally would have jumped on it. as in summer camp/wilderness style short term program. seriously though, people dont give their kids credit enough. they suffer over their own problems without being confronted. many get better with no or little intervention, simply by reflecting and growing up. some need a little extra. psychiatric observation might be an option if everything else has failed, but long-term coersive treatment can only harm, especially a child that young.
i've never been to any of these type programs, but my fiancee has and from what i've learned, it seriously would not benefit a child in yours' condition..or any for that matter.
~j.
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On 2006-05-02 10:27:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Exorcism?"
Is there any reason for sarcasm? This woman is asking for advice and is getting some fairly reasonable responses.. and then you have to get cynical. Save it.
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Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think you would have liked giving up the heroin and the sex for canoeing and archery? Kids that are in this kind of trouble are scared and don't have the confidence to make a change from the adult world back to where they belong. How do you think this little girl would respond to her bunkmates at YMCA Camp? The solution need not be punitive but I do believe more will be required to help this child than some fun in the sun.
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I am not familiar with the specific outward bound programs you speak of, but you will need something with a therapeutic component to address the issues she has been trying to deal with and get past.
uh, why not try a reputable child psychologist in your town? maybe some family therapy. this kid din't get messed up on her own. it takes bad parenting to kick off the problem.
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On 2006-05-02 10:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I am not familiar with the specific outward bound programs you speak of, but you will need something with a therapeutic component to address the issues she has been trying to deal with and get past.
uh, why not try a reputable child psychologist in your town? maybe some family therapy. this kid din't get messed up on her own. it takes bad parenting to kick off the problem."
That is not always true. Lots of really good, concerned, loving parents have children with these types of problems. Why would you attack someone that has come here for genuine advice? You might be mad at your own parents but there's no need to make assumptions about this woman.
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This entire thread is trollbait. Complete bullshit.
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Go to my website and/or give me a call. I promise to give you only PURE options for PURE treatment for your daughter.
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On 2006-05-02 10:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This entire thread is trollbait. Complete bullshit. "
Agreed.
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On 2006-05-02 10:51:00, wild fig wrote:
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On 2006-05-02 10:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I am not familiar with the specific outward bound programs you speak of, but you will need something with a therapeutic component to address the issues she has been trying to deal with and get past.
uh, why not try a reputable child psychologist in your town? maybe some family therapy. this kid din't get messed up on her own. it takes bad parenting to kick off the problem."
That is not always true. Lots of really good, concerned, loving parents have children with these types of problems. Why would you attack someone that has come here for genuine advice? You might be mad at your own parents but there's no need to make assumptions about this woman."
These kids don't grow up in a vacuum.
Trying to treat the kid by isolating him/her from the family simply doesn't work. I'd suggest a good community-based treatment plan that involves the parents and siblings. FFT has been shown to be the most effective modality for treating adolescents and their families.
Sending the kid away to a program won't help. There is copious scientific evidence available that clearly shows that this approach is at best ineffective and at worst incredibly damaging.
Unless, of course, you consider a 75% recidivism rate and high potential for PTSD and other psychsocial and physical maladies successful or acceptable.
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it all depends on the individual circumstance i suppose, but i'm sure that for me, it would have been great. maybe not the paragon of summer fun at first, there being rules of course, but it could be a real wake-up on the kids level. 'this is how other kids live, what the fuck have i been doing?' sort of thing. i understand the difficulty in interacting with kids whose lives are far different, but in a lot of cases it might be a good way of resocialing without rigid vice-like controls being placed on acceptable thought and behavior.
i'd say give the kid a copy of walden and send her off to camp, but maybe thats pushing it.
~j.
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SUWS of the Carolinas (Therapeutic wilderness camp) is an excellent place to stabilize some children.
Read the SUWS thread. There are lots of horror stories about this place and it is run by AEG, a parent company well-known for it's abusive facilities and practices.
I wouldn't take mental health advice from a customer service worker...
Maybe you should consult with an established child psychologist first, then start researching.
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I think Tranquility Bay is a great option.
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There have been a lot of good points brought up here. It seems most agree that your daughter should get evaluated in your locality first. You know your daughter better than anyone else and could help assess if being away from her home environment would do her more harm than good, some kids don?t do well if sent away, others do extremely well when removed from stimuli that is causing this. This could also be discussed as a topic during her evaluation with a local therapist.
The fact that you are here shows you are not a bad parent, so don?t take offense by some of the comments you get here. If you didn?t care and let her continue on her, self destructive course, that may raise an eyebrow, in my opinion.
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Why not just invite the world into your home, and turn it into reality T.V. show?
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On 2006-05-02 10:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This entire thread is trollbait. Complete bullshit. "
Exactly, or else I wouldn't be being a total sarcastic bitch!
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I have nailed the windows shut, put deadbolts on the doors and I sleep in front of her door on the floor, but she still manages to get past me and out the door. I could chain her to the bed, but I'd be arrested for child abuse.
You people are fucking idiots. This is a troll.
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On 2006-05-02 11:45:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
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On 2006-05-02 10:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This entire thread is trollbait. Complete bullshit. "
Exactly, or else I wouldn't be being a total sarcastic bitch!"
It may be hard to believe, but there are many parents facing the situation which was described here. The poster may or may not be telling the truth, as you insinuate, but the situation is real for many people who may be ?lurking in the shadows? for advice. This is a good opportunity to help a family(s) make the right decision for their child and I think the feedback has been constructive, for the most part and helpful. The perception, here at formits (for many),seems to be that most of the kids in TBS and wilderness programs are there because they smoked pot, but it just isn?t true, many of the problems run deeper like the one described here. If there is a chance that the poster is real we should try to help guide her a little to make a wise decision for her family.
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Really, Nihilanthic, have you had any experience with an out of control 12 year old girl? It doesn't sound like bullshit to me at all.
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It's bullshit.
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That wasn't the question. My question for Nihilanthic is this: do you have any expereince raising, teaching or treating an out of control 12 year old girl like the one mentioned below. Yes, SHE may be fictional but there are millions of them out there. I'm new to Fornits and, I'm just wondering, with over 1600 posts under your belt, where/how exactly did you become an expert on this subject?[ This Message was edited by: wild fig on 2006-05-02 12:21 ]
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One more question- this one for CCM: Did you or did you not post your own stories on this site? It hardly seems different to me at all...or do survivor stories make one a martyr around here. I'm just trying to learn the "culture" of Fornits.[ This Message was edited by: wild fig on 2006-05-02 12:31 ]
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Yes, I have posted my own personal experiences with Heritage School and Cross Creek Manor on here.....so what? And the great thing about fornits is, if you want to check them out everything is archived.
So, if you are really curious about my history with fornits or my 4 years of incarceration from the ages of 12-16......then look it up yourself.
I still stand by my first gut instinct. You may entertain this person if you would like, but I choose to believe the are full of shit.
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No, I really don't want to know what you did as much as you don't want to hear this woman's story. I'm just wondering why it's OK for you to bear your soul and post your history but then she gets ridiculed for doing the same. I can understand why you (since you had a bad experience) might attack a program parent but she isn't one -yet. Alienating her might send her away before both sides of the story are revealed to her. Get it?
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I'd have to go with CCM
This stinks of Trollshit.
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Okay, first of all I have a username. I never post ANON, and I have a long history with fornits.
Okay, what mom nails her daughters windows shut, uses padlocks, sleeps with her matress up against this girls bedroom door, and the daughter still manages to get out???
If this is true........this girl shouldn't be whoring herself out, she should be the next fucking Houdini.
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Just stop replying and theyll go away. Posting replies is what they want.
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On 2006-05-02 14:13:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Just stop replying and theyll go away. Posting replies is what they want."
Its a forum, its what everyone wants isnt it?
very strange, who is this guy?
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Who are "they." I came on just to read about this stuff-not in crisis-and I'm just asking a few questions. I'm not nor have I ever been a program parent- but I did have a hellish time raising daughters that are now grown. I guess this means that you won't be answering my questions Nihilanthic. Is it because you don't have any answers? I didn't come here to plug a program and I was just pointing out that your childishness is letting "them" win. I appreciate your answers CCM and was not in anyway abusing you for posting your experiences. It's obvious that you have much more to say than Nihilanthic because you (at the very least)have been there. Some people, like me, are interested in what you have to say preferably without the sarcasm. I don't know where he's coming from.
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Sorry, but only programmies use the words "in crisis", and the rest of your posts clearly mark you as yet another programmie troll.
Fail.
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On 2006-05-02 13:36:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Okay, first of all I have a username. I never post ANON, and I have a long history with fornits.
Okay, what mom nails her daughters windows shut, uses padlocks, sleeps with her matress up against this girls bedroom door, and the daughter still manages to get out???
If this is true........this girl shouldn't be whoring herself out, she should be the next fucking Houdini.
"
Sorry I didn't mean that I thought you were trolling, but that i agreed with you that the OP was trolling.
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No, "in crisis" is a term used often in the field of mental health. You don't have to be a "programmie" to use that term. What's your beef, Paul. I was on your side--I never said I liked anything about programs.
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And you're still a really blatant troll. Fuck off already.
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And you are still a blatant, little, mundane prick...but again, my questions were for Nihilanthic and I'm supposing he sent his little brother in to change the subject.
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On 2006-05-02 14:45:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"And you're still a really blatant troll. Fuck off already."
STOP. REPLYING. :roll:
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On 2006-05-02 14:53:00, wild fig wrote:
"And you are still a blatant, little, mundane prick...but again, my questions were for Nihilanthic and I'm supposing he sent his little brother in to change the subject."
He doesnt answer questions, just dumps his anger and bullies people.
Never adds value to a thread.
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Crystal clear....You have never raised, treated or taught an out of control 12 year old girl. I bet you don't even have sisters. That's all I wanted to know. Are you opposed to telling the truth or just enjoy avoiding it? Your credibility has been shot to hell and back. You are a disgrace to the people on this forum that would like to see abusive programs shut down. Some of us would like to see that happen. I was going to advise against a program but by now that woman is long gone. She's probably sent off for HLA literature by now.
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My post above.
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Fig has a point there.
"in crisis" is perfectly standard mental health pro slang/generic term.
It's just that like most MHP slang it has been co-opted and missapplied by the BMF industry.
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On 2006-05-02 14:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2006-05-02 14:53:00, wild fig wrote:
"And you are still a blatant, little, mundane prick...but again, my questions were for Nihilanthic and I'm supposing he sent his little brother in to change the subject."
He doesnt answer questions, just dumps his anger and bullies people.
Never adds value to a thread."
The trolls are out in force today. I've had a few good laughs anyway.
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On 2006-05-02 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Crystal clear....You have never raised, treated or taught an out of control 12 year old girl. I bet you don't even have sisters. That's all I wanted to know. Are you opposed to telling the truth or just enjoy avoiding it? Your credibility has been shot to hell and back. You are a disgrace to the people on this forum that would like to see abusive programs shut down. Some of us would like to see that happen. I was going to advise against a program but by now that woman is long gone. She's probably sent off for HLA literature by now."
It's all good, I gave her a Calrbrook Education Consultation, their fee ain't that bad!
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What you do is you tell the government you have a 12 year old that can walk through solid objects without making a sound, and send her after Osama Bin Laden.
Then, she can find her way into the Iranian Nuclear research labs and sabotage their efforts, and hijack one of their MiG fighters and land clandestine in an Iraqi air force base, where she'll be taken home after a debriefing and press conference.
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Let's talk, I know of several places where we can place her. I need a new spa, my old one is fritzing out, I can really use this placement. I will give you a discount since she is 12.
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I think Illuminati assassin training costs more than the typical TBS, Nihil.
:rofl: *laughing.. so... hard....* :rofl:
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What you do is you tell the government you have a 12 year old that can walk through solid objects without making a sound, and send her after Osama Bin Laden.
Let me guess... She went to a therapeutic boarding school for mutants in Westchester, NY, right?
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First person to accuse Professor X of running a TBS gets some altered genetics to the face.
And I don't mean a money shot, either.
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But if he was, here's what we'd do with him:
(http://http://www.superdickery.com/images/oneshot/stairs.jpg)
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Nice.
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(GEEK MODE)
We could probably make a FUCK of a story arc out of TBSs for mutant kids. :roll:
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This story brought tears to my eyes. I too had a twelve year old daughter who got addicted to crack, and started whoring herself out at her elementary school to buy her drugs. Most people laugh and think this isn't possible, but until they have their own troubled pre-teen they will never know what it's like.
I suggest that you get this girl the help she needs right away. You should also look into possible molestation/sexual assault as a youngster, she is desperately covering up negative feelings. This was true with my daughter, and I took her father to court and now he is no longer able to influence her so negatively. I would write more but I am tired, and I already dedicated a whole website to her story. http://www.tubgirl.com (http://www.tubgirl.com)
Good luck, I know how tough it can be.
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Gosh, I'm so sorry. That photo you have of her on the website is heartbreaking. You can see the pain in her eye.
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I am the OP. I am a troll, and I am not. My story is true. My daughter really did these things. Yes, she would still get away. Yes, despite my best efforts, she got out. Only this was several years ago.
Here is what happened.
We went to therapy, when I could get her to go. The therapists told me different things to do and I did each of them. None of those things mattered one bit. She continued.
At one point she cut herself and I was so happy/sad because I thought that would be the ticket to get her into a mental hospital for treatment. It was not to be. They would take her in the hospital...for $20,000 up front. I did not have mental health coverage for inpatient so that's what they wanted. I didn't have it, they sent her home. The $20K was for them to keep her a week. One week is all they would do to "stabelize" her, then out she goes.
I called the police on her several times. They sometimes took her overnight, but always made me (under threat of my own arrest) pick her up the next day. She was not breaking the law so they would not keep her. When they did pick her up, it was for "runaway" when she was out without permission. They don't prosecute runaways...it's a statutory offense...not chargeable.
As far as a comprehensive community based treatment...there was and is none available. There is NO treatment in my community for a kid like this.
I tried getting an IEP. I couldn't afford a lawyer (who might have made it happen). I did the best I could with the school district, filed appeals and all...no luck, turned down, with no recourse.
Meanwhile, my child is going to die. I know you all say "deadinsaneorinjail" like it's a figment of a parents imagination and maybe sometimes it is, but this child...my child....was in grave danger.
So here is a parent with a child in desperate need of help and no one to help. Schools, police, I even tried child protective services (she was in need of protection, right), therapists, psychiatrists...nada, nothing, zilch.
My other kids are living in hell. I find scumbag MEN under my daughter's bed at night (yes I called the cops). I find criminals sneaking INTO my house. I am screamed at, cussed at, called names. She steals her siblings money, anything she can sell. She calls them names, she screams at them.
This is the truth. This is the situation that many parents and children find themselves in. Huge, horrible problems...and no help available...except for programs. So yes, that is what happened. I sent her away after myself and several other family members pooled our resources to pay for it.
Sending my kid away caused damage. Yes it did. She did not trust me for a long, long time. She had runaway and was on the streets for over a week, when I told a bunch of lies to get her to come home long enough for the escorts to grab her. That is the last time I ever lied to my kid. It took a long time for her to get over that lie, but I countered it by always, always, always telling her the truth. She trust me today, without a second thought and that's good because I won't ever lie to her again, but I'm glad I did it that time. I truly believe that getting her off the streets saved her life and I simply was not able to keep her off the streets. I COULD NOT.
My point is....
there are no options. Whether or not programs are good or bad, there are no other options for many parents and children.
Mental hospitals might seem good, but most are acute care facilities and keep kids for a few days, not hardly long enough to solve the problems we had. The "long-term" hospitals would keep her a week or two. Mental hospitals are there for the mentally ill. Their job (as they see it) is to find the right meds and get the kid on them. To this day, my daughter does not have a mental illness. She was diagnosed with this and that, put on this med or that med and none of that made any difference.
OK...so get to the point.
What are all you doing to see that there are other options? Ranting and raving about programs doesn't create options. How are you encouraging communities to create comprehensive help? How are you teaching people to build these things? How are you HELPING the kids, like mine, who need help, but can't find it????
Turn your anger to good use. Put it towards building something good, rather than just tearing down something that is not so good.
Today my daughter is ok. She is not self-destructive, does not engage in dangerous behavior and we have a great relationship. Part of that, most of that, is just that she grew up. Programs allowed her to do that in safety and allowed us (her family) to have something of a normal life at home. They kept her safe long enough for her to have the chance to grow up and I got the chance to change some things about how I parented her. She was not abused, but it still caused damage, but not as much as she was causing herself. I wish there had been a different way.
Focus on making a different way, please?
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Way to go OP. Frankly, I'm happy to know that it happened awhile back and she's better now. I've lived that hell and found myself thinking about her in the night, wondering what sane advice I could give you.
I hope your other kids are OK and survived the carnage.[ This Message was edited by: wild fig on 2006-05-03 08:27 ]
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Well OP, you may have made a few people think before they judge others, well said. I think you put a challenge out there for people to be more proactive and look for solutions vs judging people for their past decisions.
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On 2006-05-03 08:34:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 08:30:00, TheWho wrote:
"Well OP, you may have made a few people think before they judge others, well said. I think you put a challenge out there for people to be more proactive and look for solutions vs judging people for their past decisions."
Not likely. I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
"
Yeah, you are probably right. Too bad, with all this knowledge of programs and kids who were at risk themselves, one would think a few would like to help out other kids (keep them safe, get them the help they really need and become part of the solution) instead of just dumping anger on parents and ?programmies? and being part of the problem.
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On 2006-05-03 08:55:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 08:34:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 08:30:00, TheWho wrote:
"Well OP, you may have made a few people think before they judge others, well said. I think you put a challenge out there for people to be more proactive and look for solutions vs judging people for their past decisions."
Not likely. I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
"
Yeah, you are probably right. Too bad, with all this knowledge of programs and kids who were at risk themselves, one would think a few would like to help out other kids (keep them safe, get them the help they really need and become part of the solution) instead of just dumping anger on parents and ?programmies? and being part of the problem."
what a tool. you ARE the problem. without you there wouldn't be abusive warehouses to send kids to. it's your messed up parenting and your money that cause the problem.
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On 2006-05-03 09:05:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"They have to vent somewhere, and those that do want to help either find their own way of doing it, or join other groups like TAUSA, ISAC, and Cafety. I have found Fornits an excellent source of information from time to time, and a place to blow off steam when I am bored. Then again I do have way to much free time here in Korea, but hopefully that will soon come to an end. Ahh soon to return to the land I love and blah blah blah.. I friggin hope Bush doesn't declare war on Mexico or something equally retarded. In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
"
I hear you, the reason I stay is there are a few people who care about the kids and try to help them and I try to help some parents out where I can.
Heading your way, I'll be in Astana for a month in June then heading for Singapore.
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what a tool. you ARE the problem. without you there wouldn't be abusive warehouses to send kids to. it's your messed up parenting and your money that cause the problem.
I am flattered that you give me so much power.
My parenting style isnt my fault, its my parents fault for being a model for me to follow and I am really pissed at them for that. If it wasnt for them my kids would be perfect. I refuse to take any personal responsibility for anything I do, the money I make, the way my kids turn out and you can quote me:
"Its my parents fault".
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Astana isn't that in Thailand?
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Russia ? I think.
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On 2006-05-03 09:49:00, TheWho wrote:
"what a tool. you ARE the problem. without you there wouldn't be abusive warehouses to send kids to. it's your messed up parenting and your money that cause the problem.
I am flattered that you give me so much power.
My parenting style isnt my fault, its my parents fault for being a model for me to follow and I am really pissed at them for that. If it wasnt for them my kids would be perfect. I refuse to take any personal responsibility for anything I do, the money I make, the way my kids turn out and you can quote me:
"Its my parents fault".
"
What this person meant was people like you, who became parents, who are selfish, incompetent morons, contribute to the problem that society has today, that being all these kiddie prisons that are popping up all over the freaking place!
You may have had horrible parents yourself, but any intelligent person can reprogram their own thinking. I don't expect this of kids or young adults, but I think as you get older, and wiser it dawns on you naturally. I am sorry if that didn't happen for you, and your kids have been affected.
I have always believed in parents having to take courses on parenting. Every year the government should have a week of classes for all the different age groups. Parents need to be forced into going. Or you can reward them through tax breaks? I don't really care, because society as a whole is having to pay billions of dollars out of our pockets anyway for these fucked up kids, I would rather it be preventitive then waiting until it's too late. I'd rather kids be happy, and families healthy. Then what we have now, which is places to throw your bad kids into.
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I still think the whole story is bullshit.
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On 2006-05-03 11:12:00, The Liger wrote:
"I still think the whole story is bullshit.
"
Yeah, me too.
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I think you missed my point. It seems the great majority here believes the parents are to blame. That the kids were just days away from a full scholarship at an ivy leagues school when they were plucked up, hand cuffed and sent off to prison for years and never knew why. We read stories like the one above (which is more realistic than many others that are embraced here) and people believe it is bs because they can not give any advice except for the route that is inevitable which is placement outside the home, so its easy to say, aw it?s a bs story.
Bottom line is that we don?t know what the root cause of these teens becoming at risk. They come from families which are good, bad and mediocre. The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof and the majority feel the parents should sit back and do nothing.
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The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof...
I think Deborah fully debunked this for you months ago with solid documentation that shows this statement is completely false.
She also provided the data that show that death rates from "programs" are manifold times higher than the average school-age population.
We have two issues we?re discussing.
1) Your and Marcus?s claims regarding an increase in suicides.
2) Your ongoing musings regarding whether programs are safer than public schools.
This is about as close as we?re going to get to an answer.
1 in 1 million DEATHS in public schools.
1 in 2, 308 DEATHS in programs. (based on 30,000 in programs)
Facts just don't matter to this guy. Debate is fairly useless when it's grounded in contrived statements...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-05-03 11:55 ]
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16,750 teens committed suicide between 1992 and 2000.
This cant be debunked they are NCES numbers not mine, take it up with them.
Almost 17,000 kids took their lives, you cant deny there is a problem, they came from all walks of life, cities and family environments
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And if you put them in a program, the death rate goes up 434 times.
I'll take my chances and avoid the programs.
One in one million vs. one in 2,300. It ain't that hard to figure out, hoss. Programs kill kids at 434 times the rate of the rest of society.
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On 2006-05-03 12:14:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"And if you put them in a program, the death rate goes up 434 times.
I'll take my chances and avoid the programs.
One in one million vs. one in 2,300. It ain't that hard to figure out, hoss. Programs kill kids at 434 times the rate of the rest of society.
"
Calm down DJ and get your facts straight:
Your population includes some kids who committed suicide after they returned home, not at school.
Its not apples and apples.
Bottom line the suicide rate is high based on NCES studies and that is what parents are reacting to, you have no data to support your position except for Deborahs list which is uncontrolled data.
Sorry DJ, I have to go with the facts and controlled studies.
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DJ -- If you come up with a study or hard numbers which can support your position I will be willing to take a look and we can compare it to NCES studies, until then its just hype and fluff.
Sorry
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Anyway,lets move on, there was no comparisons being made, here is what was said:
I think you missed my point. It seems the great majority here believes the parents are to blame. That the kids were just days away from a full scholarship at an ivy leagues school when they were plucked up, hand cuffed and sent off to prison for years and never knew why. We read stories like the one above (which is more realistic than many others that are embraced here) and people believe it is bs because they can not give any advice except for the route that is inevitable which is placement outside the home, so its easy to say, aw it?s a bs story.
Bottom line is that we don?t know what the root cause of these teens becoming at risk. They come from families which are good, bad and mediocre. The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof and the majority feel the parents should sit back and do nothing.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 12:42 ]
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On 2006-05-03 12:41:00, TheWho wrote:
"Anyway,lets move on, there was no comparisons being made, here is what was said:
I think you missed my point. It seems the great majority here believes the parents are to blame. That the kids were just days away from a full scholarship at an ivy leagues school when they were plucked up, hand cuffed and sent off to prison for years and never knew why. We read stories like the one above (which is more realistic than many others that are embraced here) and people believe it is bs because they can not give any advice except for the route that is inevitable which is placement outside the home, so its easy to say, aw it?s a bs story.
Bottom line is that we don?t know what the root cause of these teens becoming at risk. They come from families which are good, bad and mediocre. The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof and the majority feel the parents should sit back and do nothing.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 12:42 ]"
I think you are missing my point. Had you been a good parent, your child could of had a chance at getting that college scholarship. Healthy intrests, and family fun, go a long way.
Since you weren't, for whatever reason a good parent (and btw you are not alone).......you have nobody to blame for your childrens problems but yourself.
It is pretty much all your fault. Bad parenting = troubled youth.
What can you do now? I don't know! We give you all kinds of info, and advise here for free! Figure out how to make it work for you. That's you job, not ours.
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It is pretty much all your fault. Bad parenting = troubled youth.
I haven?t seen where this has been established or proven as root cause, one could insert any influence before the equal signs. I have seen many families,some who have 3 children doing fine and a 4th becomes an at-risk child. All being raised the same, your argument just doesn?t float.
I have seen parents who are horrible and their kids get scholarships, well adjusted ,happy etc.
There is just more going on than parenting stimuli, good or bad.
I agree, it would be nice to solve the problem before it becomes one by establishing root cause and impliment effective corrective action, but until we do find the cause all we can do is react and find ways to keep these kids safe and on course. If training all the parents would accomplish this I would be the first to help, but there is no evidence that this would work, or a parenting style that would put a stop to these problems.
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CCM,
All the nurturing and family fun in the world doesn't work for some kids. Most kids that wind up in programs are really bright and get that college scholarship anyway. It's the smart ones, with big problems that get ignored, that become mediocre and angry when they grow up and realize what they could have had. Guess who they blame? They always blame the parents for not doing enough. Bottom line: you can't win.
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I'll take my chances and avoid the programs.
"
DJ, are we expecting? I was under the impression that you didn't have kids.
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On 2006-05-03 12:41:00, TheWho wrote:
"Anyway,lets move on, there was no comparisons being made, here is what was said:
I think you missed my point. It seems the great majority here believes the parents are to blame. That the kids were just days away from a full scholarship at an ivy leagues school when they were plucked up, hand cuffed and sent off to prison for years and never knew why. We read stories like the one above (which is more realistic than many others that are embraced here) and people believe it is bs because they can not give any advice except for the route that is inevitable which is placement outside the home, so its easy to say, aw it?s a bs story.
Bottom line is that we don?t know what the root cause of these teens becoming at risk. They come from families which are good, bad and mediocre. The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof and the majority feel the parents should sit back and do nothing.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 12:42 ]"
I said the story was BS. I don't recall saying anything about Ivy league colleges or anything else like that. I didn't even say anything about any other story that I believe or not. Why are you attributing anything else to me other than, "This story is BS"?
No, I don't have any solutions for this bullshit story. The windows are nailed shut and the mom sleeps in front of the door, and the "12-year-old" still gets out? The police say no crime has been committed when clearly one has? (Runaway and beyond parental control both come to mind. My parents were fond of kicking me out of the house, then having me arrested for running away.) Um, what else...oh, there are NO local resources...all types of therapy have been exhausted. No, I don't know what to say about this. But it doesn't fucking matter, because this is a story that would NEVER EVER happen.
This is the kind of story that only a program supporter would make up to freak people out of common sense. The only 12-year-old girls at the program I went to were little girls who had uber-religious parents. They were sent to the program for being defiant. They had never done drugs or had sex. (Curiously, several of them confided in me that their unber-religious fathers had molested them, and that their pissed off mothers sent them away for seducing them.) We never had an actual "drug addict" come in to the program.
Most girls there were from upper-middle class suburban families who were embarrassed because their kids walked around with pink hair and a pierced face. A lot of them experimented with drugs, and a lot of them were not going to school. I'm sure a lot of them were what they're parents might consider "promiscuous."
My own parents considered sex outside of marriage to be promiscuous, even though both admittedly had done so themselves. I had never had sex by the time I was sent away, never had a boyfriend, but I don't think they believed me. They also considered drug experimentation to be a "detrimental lifestyle," even though both had done so when they were teenagers. ("It was different back then. It was the 60s.")
Anyway, I stick to my belief that this story was BS. And I think it's hilarious how your deductive reasoning works, by the way. It's totally illogical.
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The person who started this thread is laughing their ass off right now, I guarantee it.
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Why are you cockcrunchers still replying to this trollbait?!
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No, I don't have any solutions for this bullshit story.
Just to boil it all down, that was my point. Its considered b.s. because you dont have solutions, whether it is hypothetical or actual (who cares)!!! This child needed to be placed outside the home, but many would rather discredit or ignore the story rather than address it.
This happens all the time, you just havent met anyone personally who has gone thru this so you don?t believe it.
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Fine, fine, fine! No mas, I promise! Well, maybe? Sometimes I just can't resist! Hahahaha!!!
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No, it means you are to dim to recognize satire.
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On 2006-05-03 14:00:00, TheWho wrote:
"No, I don't have any solutions for this bullshit story.
Just to boil it all down, that was my point. Its considered b.s. because you dont have solutions, whether it is hypothetical or actual (who cares)!!! This child needed to be placed outside the home, but many would rather discredit or ignore the story rather than address it.
This happens all the time, you just havent met anyone personally who has gone thru this so you don?t believe it.
"
Your point still makes no sense. It's not BS because there's no solution. It's BS because it makes no sense. Like I said, your deductive reasoning is totally illogical.
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On 2006-05-03 13:46:00, The Liger wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 12:41:00, TheWho wrote:
"Anyway,lets move on, there was no comparisons being made, here is what was said:
I think you missed my point. It seems the great majority here believes the parents are to blame. That the kids were just days away from a full scholarship at an ivy leagues school when they were plucked up, hand cuffed and sent off to prison for years and never knew why. We read stories like the one above (which is more realistic than many others that are embraced here) and people believe it is bs because they can not give any advice except for the route that is inevitable which is placement outside the home, so its easy to say, aw it?s a bs story.
Bottom line is that we don?t know what the root cause of these teens becoming at risk. They come from families which are good, bad and mediocre. The teen suicide rate in this country is thru the roof and the majority feel the parents should sit back and do nothing.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 12:42 ]"
I said the story was BS. I don't recall saying anything about Ivy league colleges or anything else like that. I didn't even say anything about any other story that I believe or not. Why are you attributing anything else to me other than, "This story is BS"?
No, I don't have any solutions for this bullshit story. The windows are nailed shut and the mom sleeps in front of the door, and the "12-year-old" still gets out? The police say no crime has been committed when clearly one has? (Runaway and beyond parental control both come to mind. My parents were fond of kicking me out of the house, then having me arrested for running away.) Um, what else...oh, there are NO local resources...all types of therapy have been exhausted. No, I don't know what to say about this. But it doesn't fucking matter, because this is a story that would NEVER EVER happen.
This is the kind of story that only a program supporter would make up to freak people out of common sense. The only 12-year-old girls at the program I went to were little girls who had uber-religious parents. They were sent to the program for being defiant. They had never done drugs or had sex. (Curiously, several of them confided in me that their unber-religious fathers had molested them, and that their pissed off mothers sent them away for seducing them.) We never had an actual "drug addict" come in to the program.
Most girls there were from upper-middle class suburban families who were embarrassed because their kids walked around with pink hair and a pierced face. A lot of them experimented with drugs, and a lot of them were not going to school. I'm sure a lot of them were what they're parents might consider "promiscuous."
My own parents considered sex outside of marriage to be promiscuous, even though both admittedly had done so themselves. I had never had sex by the time I was sent away, never had a boyfriend, but I don't think they believed me. They also considered drug experimentation to be a "detrimental lifestyle," even though both had done so when they were teenagers. ("It was different back then. It was the 60s.")
Anyway, I stick to my belief that this story was BS. And I think it's hilarious how your deductive reasoning works, by the way. It's totally illogical.
"
Indeed. This guy uses every fallacy in the book to justify his inanities. He's strictly a polemicist and has neither the reasoning skills or education to discuss the issues intelligently.
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On 2006-05-03 14:22:00, The Liger wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 14:00:00, TheWho wrote:
"No, I don't have any solutions for this bullshit story.
Just to boil it all down, that was my point. Its considered b.s. because you dont have solutions, whether it is hypothetical or actual (who cares)!!! This child needed to be placed outside the home, but many would rather discredit or ignore the story rather than address it.
This happens all the time, you just havent met anyone personally who has gone thru this so you don?t believe it.
"
Your point still makes no sense. It's not BS because there's no solution. It's BS because it makes no sense. Like I said, your deductive reasoning is totally illogical.
"
Well okay , maybe I was wrong. So how would you advise this family, if it was real?
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DJ, you forgot "ad hominem". Oh, was that me or you?
Gotcha, smile.
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And you wonder how these threads build and build.
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Luke pulls out his trusty steel ball bat and begins to beat it against the wall. Sparks fly on every hit.
STOP! *BAM!* FEEDING! *BAM!* THE! *BAM!* TROLLS!! **BAAAAM!**
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If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.
As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them.
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On 2006-05-03 14:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"DJ, you forgot "ad hominem". Oh, was that me or you?
Gotcha, smile."
All I said was that you are basically an ignorant polemicist. If you can't understand what that means, then crack a book.
I've already refuted your lame arguments quite thoroughly. Anybody who can read can see for themselves. I'm just saying that arguing with you is like arguing with a two-year-old, so why bother? All you care about is "gotcha's," and the facts mean nothing.
You're basically just a waste of time and bandwidth, but if these folks want to carry on with you, I'm sure they'll come to the same conclusion.
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On 2006-05-03 14:36:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.
As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them."
Ha,Ha, perfect --
This is what I thought, I think eventually you will see that some kids would benefit from a TBS. I dont expect you to admit it (I have been here long enough and know better), but not all kids are placed because of smoking pot or dating the wrong guy as people are telling you here. Many kids are truly at-risk and do very well at these places.
Time will tell.
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On 2006-05-03 14:39:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 14:33:00, TheWho wrote:
"DJ, you forgot "ad hominem". Oh, was that me or you?
Gotcha, smile."
All I said was that you are basically an ignorant polemicist. If you can't understand what that means, then crack a book.
I've already refuted your lame arguments quite thoroughly. Anybody who can read can see for themselves. I'm just saying that arguing with you is like arguing with a two-year-old, so why bother? All you care about is "gotcha's," and the facts mean nothing.
You're basically just a waste of time and bandwidth, but if these folks want to carry on with you, I'm sure they'll come to the same conclusion.
"
DJ, You still missed it !!?
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Why not enumerate and classify his arguements? It could make for a good undergraduate study for someone studying logic (or, rather, illogic, if thats a course you can take) or just general sophistry and spindoctoring.
Like, say, all of his emotional appeals about how we need to give the programs just one more chance, even though we have a 30~ year history of them so far.
Or isolation isn't isolation, because he says its therapy, even though the experts say otherwise.
Or, LGATs arent abusive, or effective, etc.
Or, emotionally laden nonsense about "BLOSSOMING" or "GROWING", etc.
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On 2006-05-03 14:45:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 14:36:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.
As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them."
Ha,Ha, perfect --
This is what I thought, I think eventually you will see that some kids would benefit from a TBS. I dont expect you to admit it (I have been here long enough and know better), but not all kids are placed because of smoking pot or dating the wrong guy as people are telling you here. Many kids are truly at-risk and do very well at these places.
Time will tell."
What are you not understanding here?
You're essentially saying, "Okay, this is a fake story that would never happen, but what if it did?" Then someone says that it doesn't matter, that situation never happens, and you say, "A-ha! So some kids would benefit from a program!"
You're saying if A, then B. I (and others) have said Not A. And you are still saying, okay, Not A, but B. It makes no sense.
How do you get from Point A to Point B? One premise does not a conclusion make.
You're also ignoring that the focus most people on this site have is not on what happens before the program, it's the programs themselves that are inherently bad. People like you come on this site and say stuff like, "But what about 12-year-old drug-addicted hookers with magic powers?" to try to get everyone to sway on where they would draw the line and ignore the fact that, oh wait, we don't need to worry about that. It would never happen. And the programs are still abusive, 12-year-old drug-addicted hooker or not.
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On 2006-05-03 15:13:00, The Liger wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 14:45:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 14:36:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"If it was real you couldnt do a damn thing, because obviously this girl is Shadowcat? from the X-Men, or some super-secret-fuckin'-agent to be, and a TBS couldnt keep her cooped up anyway.
As I said before, call the CIA and say you got a promising new agent for them."
Ha,Ha, perfect --
This is what I thought, I think eventually you will see that some kids would benefit from a TBS. I dont expect you to admit it (I have been here long enough and know better), but not all kids are placed because of smoking pot or dating the wrong guy as people are telling you here. Many kids are truly at-risk and do very well at these places.
Time will tell."
What are you not understanding here?
You're essentially saying, "Okay, this is a fake story that would never happen, but what if it did?" Then someone says that it doesn't matter, that situation never happens, and you say, "A-ha! So some kids would benefit from a program!"
You're saying if A, then B. I (and others) have said Not A. And you are still saying, okay, Not A, but B. It makes no sense.
How do you get from Point A to Point B? One premise does not a conclusion make.
You're also ignoring that the focus most people on this site have is not on what happens before the program, it's the programs themselves that are inherently bad. People like you come on this site and say stuff like, "But what about 12-year-old drug-addicted hookers with magic powers?" to try to get everyone to sway on where they would draw the line and ignore the fact that, oh wait, we don't need to worry about that. It would never happen. And the programs are still abusive, 12-year-old drug-addicted hooker or not.
"
The ultimate problem with that is his continued assumption (and emotional appeal) that despite the lack of evidence for the past quarter century, some program somewhere might help one kid, so we should give ALL of them infinity more chances, instead of make them demonstrate they actually do anything good first!
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On 2006-05-03 14:54:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Why not enumerate and classify his arguements? It could make for a good undergraduate study for someone studying logic (or, rather, illogic, if thats a course you can take) or just general sophistry and spindoctoring.
Like, say, all of his emotional appeals about how we need to give the programs just one more chance, even though we have a 30~ year history of them so far.
Or isolation isn't isolation, because he says its therapy, even though the experts say otherwise.
Or, LGATs arent abusive, or effective, etc.
Or, emotionally laden nonsense about "BLOSSOMING" or "GROWING", etc.
"
Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing. I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere. But are you sure it is my summary?
Let the masses choose
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Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing. I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere. But are you sure it is my summary?
Let the masses choose
Right. By your logic drugs should be legal because so many people use them?
:wstupid:
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On 2006-05-03 15:31:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Okay, 30 years and nobody has caught on that not one person has ever benefited from even one school, and the industry is growing. I guess there is a logistical or statistical disconnect somewhere. But are you sure it is my summary?
Let the masses choose
Right. By your logic drugs should be legal because so many people use them?
:wstupid: "
I would not want to legalize all drugs,no. But people do benefit from them, others do not. Its your logic that says all must benefit or all must not, not mine[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 16:19 ]
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I'm not sure anyone benefits from using illegal drugs, although I don't doubt that some come away unharmed, or even more mature. I would say that this is IN SPITE OF drug use, and not BECAUSE OF drug use.
Anyway, we're talking about apples and oranges.
I am not sure if anyone is ever kidnapped in the middle of the night and locked in a crackhouse for 1-3 years and forced to smoke crack. I'm sure it :roll: could :roll: happen, though.
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On 2006-05-03 16:18:00, The Liger wrote:
"I'm not sure anyone benefits from using illegal drugs, although I don't doubt that some come away unharmed, or even more mature. I would say that this is IN SPITE OF drug use, and not BECAUSE OF drug use.
Anyway, we're talking about apples and oranges.
I am not sure if anyone is ever kidnapped in the middle of the night and locked in a crackhouse for 1-3 years and forced to smoke crack. I'm sure it :roll: could :roll: happen, though.
"
I guess that is one extreme. But a person could attend a TBS willingly, for 12 months, doesnt have to be kidnapped for 3 years.
Some people claim smoking pot helps with their cancer, I could see legalizing this for some people, doesnt have to be crack.
One should try to look at both ends of the spectrum
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I guess that is one extreme. But a person could attend a TBS willingly, for 12 months, doesnt have to be kidnapped for 3 years.
Some people claim smoking pot helps with their cancer, I could see legalizing this for some people, doesnt have to be crack.
One should try to look at both ends of the spectrum
Wow, you could parry a fucking bullet with your skills of deflection there TheWho.
Too bad TBSs dont have anything to do with consent, so saying they chould choose to attend doesnt matter, becuase as it is, they dont have a choice. I also fail to see how the reward/punishment model could work if they could leave anyway.
:roll:
Funny about what happens when you look at the whole spectrum there, buddy - it seems the program are at the far end of it, and consentual residential therapy (actual therapy, not program shit) doesnt somehow justify being locked up in a program.
So, uh, whats your arguement? Because someone might choose to go to some treatment center thats consentual and they can leave at any time, that means programs are ok? Or... what?
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I'm going to try really hard not to continue this stupidity, but I just keep hearing one stupid thing after another from you.
Obviously I wasn't talking about marijuana.
Also, "one" (Why do you talk like that, as if you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon all of us?) should try to look at the middle of the spectrum and forget this nonsense about the extremes.
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Wow, you could parry a fucking bullet with your skills of deflection there TheWho.
Too bad TBSs dont have anything to do with consent, so saying they chould choose to attend doesnt matter, becuase as it is, they dont have a choice. I also fail to see how the reward/punishment model could work if they could leave anyway.
Funny about what happens when you look at the whole spectrum there, buddy - it seems the program are at the far end of it, and consentual residential therapy (actual therapy, not program shit) doesnt somehow justify being locked up in a program.
So, uh, whats your arguement? Because someone might choose to go to some treatment center thats consentual and they can leave at any time, that means programs are ok? Or... what?
Okay, Niles, I?ll bite, what the heck. If you are talking strictly about one subject, say TBS?s, then they become an entire spectrum (its not a subset) or you could call it a data set or population if you like, doesn?t matter. So one end of the spectrum may be slamming your child in a car, handcuffing them, because they smoked a cigarette in front of Aunt Judy and sending them away to a place like straight for 6 years.
At the other end of the spectrum would be a different child who chooses the option of a 14 month TBS, with no fences or restraints,because a therapists feels she is at-risk to herself or others. If you think the distribution is normal you could insert ?Normal curve? for the word ?spectrum? (in the above paragraph) if you are more statistical than logical and it may help you.
One end of the spectrum, I feel, is not okay (personal opinion), the other end of the spectrum, I feel, is okay (again personal opinion).
I don?t judge anything by whether or not it is consensual or has fences but by the out come. It is really the only true way to measure any process?s results.
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On 2006-05-03 16:41:00, The Liger wrote:
"I'm going to try really hard not to continue this stupidity, but I just keep hearing one stupid thing after another from you.
Obviously I wasn't talking about marijuana.
Also, "one" (Why do you talk like that, as if you have some sort of wisdom to bestow upon all of us?) should try to look at the middle of the spectrum and forget this nonsense about the extremes.
"
You mentioned drugs I didnt, could be crack or pot, right, no one specified? The distibution argument above may answer your question.
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Ok... there are no consentual programs. They cant work consentually. Do you not know what the definition of COERSION is?
Your "spectrum" is contrived and full of shit. There is no such thing as a "14 month program with no fences" or wahtever, because
- Actual therapy doesnt have a time stipulation, because therapy isnt a sentance or a punishment!
- Actual therapy at a retreat with residential facilities, no coersion, and full open communication, is not a program. It doesnt apply to your spectrum
- If such places are good, they dont somehow justify programs
- Your verbal chaff about statistics is all just nonsense
Programs are way out in left field and most people dont use programs at all anyway. Most people handle it themselves because they know how to parent, or use outpatient therapy, not coersive behavior modification. You cant redefine a program into something its not so you can win an arguement.
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I can set your son straight, in CD or cassette.
(http://http://www.anthony-robbins.org.uk/pics/tony_robbins_uk.jpg)
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If it's CD give me your address.
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You might have also heard my tapes while locked up at a WWASPS facility. I hear they like to play my tapes over speakers during meals for kids and then make them write about it at night. Studies have shown, this is more effective than traditional therapy. (and more profitable for me!)
YOU CAN DO IT TOO!
(http://http://www.benstiller.net/ben/images/tbss/realrobbins.jpg)
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OMG!!! Make the scary man go away!
I swear, if I were you Anthony R. I would pay whatever money it took to make that picture go away!
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On 2006-05-03 18:10:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"It is all a process of evolution. Sadly that evolutionary process of the TBS industry is at the expense of children, and hopefully society has enough sense to cull the TBS industry from the ranks and let it fall by the wayside of yet another idiotic idea.
Undoubtably the TBS system has helped some people, and without a doubt TBS has played a significant enough role on American society. The perspective I take on TBS is that far more have been harded in the process, and very little emphasis has been placed on the alternatives. Why the lack of emphasis on alternatives? Money talks and logic walks.Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
"
Sorry but uh.... no the TBS indusry hasnt played a signifigant role. At all. Very, very few people (As a percentage of the population) even know they exist. Theyre a niche market for a reason - THEY DONT WORK, and theyre FUCKED UP!
And how the hell did a TBS help anyone? Coallation is not causation - what did a TBS do to 'help' anyone, TSW?
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Listen up all you fools fo` tha downlow fo' real. those of us who hizzle bizzle through tha teen industry mizzle factory knizzay it D-to-tha-izzont wizzork gangsta style. you know how you can read a book n study a subject but killa really understand until you live it? this is one of those situations, once youve lived through a bad program you know tizzle cant exist as they do today like old skool shit. shiznut them all tha fiznuck down, parents need ta do they job. whizzay tha fuck is wrizzong wit parents these days, tizzle be tha real question. werd to yer mutha.
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werd ta mah brotha three clockin' in tha waygookin n shiyat. he knows whats up. tha only peeps who dont knizzow whats up is tha parents shell'n over they benjies fo` some second rate wharehizouse fo` teens n' shit.
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Aspirin please?
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Ok... there are no consentual programs. They cant work consentually. Do you not know what the definition of COERSION is?
Sorry to rile you up, Niles, but yes the word is ?consensual ? and yes there are programs that take kids without being escorted, they have rules and regulations, so you have to live by their rules, just like anyplace else.
Your "spectrum" is contrived and full of shit.
Its because you don?t understand it, which is okay. Instead of Wikipedia ?Spectrum? Wikipedia ?Normal curve? or ?Distribution?. I think that was your error, its not a color spectrum. It applies to any sets of data, they may be normal or skewed, it isn?t full of crap because it applies to any set that has more than 2 data points, don?t take my word for it look it up. Our data (that we are talking about today) set is Programs, RTC and TBS some call it a spectrum, sorry to confuse you.
? There is no such thing as a "14 month program with no fences" or wahtever, because:
Actual therapy doesnt have a time stipulation, because therapy isnt a sentance or a punishment!
Wrong, my daughter attended one, but lets continue:
14 month program is a time estimate, if you take a cold formula and it says 12 hour relief do you expect the tolerance to be plus or minus 1 minute? Or is it different for each person (I would chose the second one.) My daughter was at the 14 month program for 16 months, some take longer others shorter.
? Actual therapy at a retreat with residential facilities, no coersion, and full open communication, is not a program. It doesnt apply to your spectrum
You can call it what you want, call it a school, no fences, you can leave anytime you want. Again, you don?t understand spectrum, its not ?My? spectrum.
? If such places are good, they dont somehow justify programs
Not sure if we could call them good, but they help kids grow and keep them safe. I am not trying to justify programs, just stating they work and help people.
Your verbal chaff about statistics is all just nonsense
? Hmmm, Okay
Programs are way out in left field and most people dont use programs at all anyway.
Depends how you define the field. If the field is defined as ?Residential programs? then TBS?s are probably in the middle of the field. Yes most people do not use programs because they don?t have a need, which is a good thing. I think we both agree.
Most people handle it themselves because they know how to parent, or use outpatient therapy, not coersive behavior modification.
Or better said, outpatient therapy is effective and they don?t need to look any further or use behavior mod.
You cant redefine a program into something its not so you can win an argument
Come on, Nile ,I wish you would stop taking all of this so personal, its not about us winning or losing an argument. Its about saving the kids !! Why cant you see this? Who cares who wins a stupid argument? These kids need help and the parents out there need some help to make decisions for them.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 19:14 ][ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-03 19:42 ]
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PT9K, ENGAGE!!
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ENTERING ACTIVE MODE (auth: lstephens)
What TheWho really meant to say was...
Of course there are lots of program which have their own ways of abusing, forcing, and manipulating children, and I can't understand what makes them so wrong.. I have a misbegotten ability not to be able to tell the difference between 'unescorted' and 'consensual'.
I have absolutely no clue what a normal distribution, a bell curve, a standard deviation, or anything else statistics-related is. If I did, I wouldn't be stupid enough to bring them up, because obviously the number of kids to benefit in any way shape or form from this bullshit is such a tiny tail of the curve that it defeats my argument utterly.
Similarly, I have no idea what might be wrong with time-designated therapy, so I'll spew a lot of nonsense about how my victim/daughter was forced to stay for a preset length of time that was similar to what they advertised. Imagine that!
Again, I have no idea what "consensual" means, and I like to pretend kids aren't prisoners when they really are.
I am not trying to justify programs, I'm just trying to justify programs. Oh, wait...
In my twisted little mind, TBSes are "ordinary" as far as treatment methods go. This is beause I need to be shot in the face repeatedly. Someone please, for the love of Satan, kill me now.
I honestly believe 'behavior modification' is a valid form of therapy. Have I mentioned that I seriously need to die?
Come on, Master Nihil, I wish you would stop beating my ass, its not about us winning or losing an argument. Its about hurting the kids !! Why cant you see this? Who cares how many times you beat my monkey ass? These kids need help getting the fuck away from idiots like me who will put them in private prison.
TRANSLATION COMPLETE
SUCK IT FLESHBAG
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::rocker::
Damn I love that thing.
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:
Your population includes some kids who committed suicide after they returned home, not at school.
That's like saying a soldier should not be be on the Irqai causualty list because s/he died after being transported to Germany, not IN Iraq.
>
<
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On 2006-05-03 12:27:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-05-03 12:14:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"And if you put them in a program, the death rate goes up 434 times.
I'll take my chances and avoid the programs.
One in one million vs. one in 2,300. It ain't that hard to figure out, hoss. Programs kill kids at 434 times the rate of the rest of society.
"
Calm down DJ and get your facts straight:
Your population includes some kids who committed suicide after they returned home, not at school.
Its not apples and apples.
Bottom line the suicide rate is high based on NCES studies and that is what parents are reacting to, you have no data to support your position except for Deborahs list which is uncontrolled data.
Sorry DJ, I have to go with the facts and controlled studies.
Screw you and your "facts and controlled studies".
My daughter was kidnapped and sent to one of shitholes by her father. She was 13, not out of control, a really good kid, getting good grades etc. etc. He was just pissed off. The trauma bent her backwards and after years of trying to get past it she hung herelf. The suicide estimate for kids who get shipped off, abandoned by their parents and abused in the programs is really just the tip of the iceberg because the kids go home, they just fade into the twilight and when they self-destruct years later no one puts it together. ::unhappy::
"