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Messages - marshall

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16
The Seed Discussion Forum / Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« on: January 10, 2006, 04:36:00 PM »
:nworthy:
Absolutely great post Deborah! How do we determine if the person or group that is determined to replace our compass or fix our morals, worldview, etc. has a compass that is accurate themselves? Who gets to say which way is north? The Inquisators were kindly trying to save the immortal souls of their victims. History & our world is full of those that 'know' what is right for everyone else and are willing to use force to bring it about. So many people want someone to direct them and tell them which way is up and this provides ready followers for those that seem certain of their own views. Ah, but 'question authority' was one of those hippie, druggie ideas that needed discarding in order to produce nice, compliant, conforming seedlings.

17
The Seed Discussion Forum / Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« on: January 07, 2006, 10:08:00 PM »
The Seed / Art seemed to assume that all drug users and even those with bad or 'druggie' attitudes were all suffering from the same problem that called for the same solution. One size fits all. No distinction was really made between a junkie in their 20's and a young teen with a rebellious attitude. I think this is one of the most serious flaws of the program.

Imagine a psychiatrist that gave all of her patients prozac, regardless of their problem. Many of those suffering from depression would probably be helped to a degree by this treatment. It might have no effect upon others and perhaps make others much worse or even cause them to commit suicide.  Imagine this psychiatrist then insisting that those who didn't respond positively to his treatment 'just didn't get it'...that the failed treatment was somehow their own fault. The same could be said about electro-shock  and any number of therapies. What may be helpful to some can be harmful to others.

The synanon / seed type of confrontational program may be effective for some people..or at least the lesser of two evils. Just as there are likely many people who are better-off being hari krishna's, jehovah's witnesses or scientologists. Who knows how many were lost and directionless, perhaps headed for suicide or prison, until they discovered the 'Truth' of Rev. Moon?  Does this mean those who left those groups or feel they were harmed by them are wrong?

People use drugs / alcohol for different reasons. The 14 year old kid may be smoking pot, drinking beer & smoking cigarettes because her friends are doing it. The result of peer pressure and trying to fit in. A 25 year old heroin addict may be suffering from profound depression or other more serious psychological problems. A teen using drugs like acid might be suffering from feelings of unreality and trying to find a deeper meaning to life (like myself). Others may simply be curious about the effects of the various drugs, sample them and move on.

Art assumed it was all due to personal flaws and the nefarious effects of an evil drug culture that was creeping over the nation...hence a strong focus of the program was on culture-reform rather than drug use itself. It was all due to the clothes, the hair styles, the slang, the music, posters and incense. I recall Ginger (staff member) saying that she got rid of her posters, music and incense because 'what would my newcomer think if she came home & I was rockin' out and burning incense?'

Landhy wrote earlier about his experience with psychiatrists....about how useless it was to him. I went to a psychiatrist for nearly a year before going to the seed. I suffered from feelings of unreality and fear. I was given lots of drugs in an attempt to treat my 'problem'. None had any major effect. They seemed to change their diagnosis of my problem on a weekly basis. So I'm no big fan of modern psychiatry either. It's a science still in it's infancy. I won't say that my time in therapy was totally useless though. I did learn some things about myself. It just never really addressed my underlying problem. Finally, right before I was sent to the Seed I was told that they couldn't cure me because I wasn't really sick. I was told that I suffered from existential anxiety as a result of asking too many deep questions. They concluded I would have to find my own answers to allay this anxiety and therapy offered no cure for me.

Just as my time in therapy was not a total waste, neither was my time at the Seed. But just as the therapy never really addressed my own underlying problem (and the main reason of my drug use), neither did the Seed. Just as I really wanted to be helped by therapy, I really wanted to believe in the Seed and all of their ideology.

 Unfortunately, despite all of the techniques I was exposed to on my program (& I maintain that some were useful despite the completely unethical way in which they were imparted) that deep fear or existential anxiety had been left untouched.  I still suffered from feelings of unreality. Any time I brought this up to staff I was told to stop looking for a heavy, stop asking those 'deep' questions and just concentrate on helping others.  That didn't work for me. The question (about the nature of reality) was just too deeply ingrained to ignore.  For me, it was long years of meditation that finally resolved that underlying pain / fear. That was my answer. But I don't insist that what worked for me is what eveyone else needs and ram it down their throat via coercion.
 
Many of those at the Seed may have simply suffered from some chemical imbalance in their brain....such as chronic depression that is amenable to treatment via the new antidepressants. Being reviled and yelled at was probably not appropriate treatment for them either. I can also see that if you completed your program and realized that you were still basically miserable you might feel not only hopeless but believe it was your own fault...that you just couldn't 'get it'. Returning to heavier drug use, alcoholism or suicide post-seed is entirely understandable under such circumstances. I can also see where those from really toxic families might view the seed as a life-saving alternative family and be grateful for that alternative.
 
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:11 ][ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-07 19:15 ]

18
The Seed Discussion Forum / The Seed Discussion Forum...5 years old!
« on: January 03, 2006, 02:05:00 PM »
Add my thanks to Greg & Ginger too. Before I found this forum I thought I had resolved all of my seed-related issues. The sleepless night I spent after reading here for the first time made me realize that this wasn't completely true. I think there's a middle ground between 'Get over it and stop whining!" and endlessly blaming all of our problems on the time we spent at the seed. Thanks to all (pro, con and in-between) for helping me better understand.

19
The Seed Discussion Forum / Group Think
« on: December 22, 2005, 12:00:00 AM »
anon wrote:

---------qutoe------
"To me, the seed is not a frickin cult. It was the only place in town where kids like me could go and learn something about myself, and have lifelong bonds of frienships. I have lost 17 old friends through overdose. I would be dead right along with them if my parents didn't make the choice to lift me up out of the streets and put me somewhere where I couldn't self-destruct anymore. I learned I had choices, and those choices I made would be good for me, or I would suffer the consequences. I am remaining anon because I can't stand drama, and I just don't choose to hear the rebuttles."
----------

Since you're choosing not to hear this, I suppose it's pointless..but: Ever wonder why you can't stand the drama (of someone disagreeing with you or questioning what you say) or why you choose not to hear the rebuttals? Doesn't real honesty mean the willingness and ability to question ourselves and entertain the possibility that we may be mistaken? The Seed demanded that we do this in regards to our pre-seed life. So why not apply the same principle to examining our conclusions, beliefs and assumptions about the Seed program itself and the effects it might have had upon us? BTW, I think I learned some good things at the Seed too and was able to use them to positive effect...especially after I was out of the program itself. But this in no way inhibits my willingness to attempt to honestly examine the program or it's methodology. I'm glad you have a good and happy life. Happy holidays to all.

20
The Seed Discussion Forum / Group Think
« on: December 19, 2005, 01:01:00 AM »
http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHom ... index.html

Excerpts from the link:

"When we find ourselves in groups we inevitably find ourselves in the minority occasionally. Generally speaking, we will feel a little uncomfortable with that situation, which explains why we generally seek out groups with interests similar to our own. Imagine, though, that you are in a group where you are sure you are right and everyone else is wrong. Would you yield to group pressure and go along with everyone else?

In Asch's experiments, a group of people were seated around a table. Of these all but one were actually the experimenters confederates. The group was shown a display of vertical lines of different lengths and were asked to say which of the lines was the same length as another standard line.

One after another, the members of the group announced their decision. The confederates had been asked to give the incorrect response. The subject sat in the next to last seat so that all but one had given their obviously incorrect answer before s/he gave hers/his. Even though the correct answer was always obvious, the average subject conformed to the group response on 32% of the trials and 74% of the subjects conformed at least once.

On the face of it, an astonishing result. The correct answer was entirely obvious. Subjects had to override the very clear evidence of their own senses to give an answer conforming to the others'. Why did they do it?  When interviewed afterwards, subjects all said that they had been influenced by the pressure from the rest of the group. This, on the face of it, may appear to be an example of 'groupthink'.

Many said that they did not want to appear silly. That ties in with Rom Harré's claim that one of our secondary needs is a need for 'social respect', which includes the need to avoid looking ridiculous in front of others, the need to avoid criticism from others. That need would be likely to motivate us to seek compromise with others.

 There have been other experiments which have tended to confirm Asch's results by and large. Crutchfield's lengthier and more complex experiments seem to confirm a correlation between high intelligence and other personality traits and low conformity."

groupthink - the phenomenon whereby members of a group will not wish to risk any danger to group cohesion by expressing 'deviant' opinions. The decision of Kennedy to invade Cuba is often given as an example. Many of his advisers actually disagreed with his decision, but were unwilling to express deviant views. More recently Reagan's Strategic Defence Initiative ('Star Wars') seems to have developed in a similar way."

--------

This experiment (Asch) seems to suggest that we could have been told that black is white or most any outrageous falsehood at the Seed (or other peer-pressure based program) and a large proportion of us would have gone along with the group and agreed. If our need to conform is so basic that most of us will agree with the group even when this contradicts our own senses, those types of programs could indeed be used to sway thinking in any way chosen by the group leaders. I would guess that the effect would be even greater on younger adolescents or children.

Note too that the Asch experiment involved a one-time judgment, not an ongoing series of contradictory information on a daily (10 or 12 hours per day) basis. It's hard to imagine the power of such a concerted effort over months or years. Oh wait. I don't have to imagine it! :silly:

21
The Seed Discussion Forum / Aging Seedlings on drug policy
« on: December 16, 2005, 08:48:00 PM »
The TC program for junkfood junkies may not be as far-fetched as it sounds. I saw a segment on a news show (can't remember where...maybe CNN) about a school (I think in California) that outlawed all junkfood after they removed all the vending machines from the school system. School officials physically confiscate potato chips and candy bars if they find any kid possessing them...even during lunch. Something similar happened at my grandkids school. My daughter sent a small coke in my grandson's lunchbox. A teacher noticed it and took it from him and informed my daughter that softdrinks are not allowed even when sent from home. What's next... testing children's urine for the presence of transfatty acids?

Again, all of this begins with high ideals and lofty intentions (ala John U.'s seed defense)...we as a society notice that 'we' are getting fatter and eating too much so rather than taking personal responsibility for the problem we try to impose change via authoritarian rules and laws. 'Lock the dang kids up. That'll teach 'em to eat potato chips!' I can see the beginnings of the same sort of thinking toward junkfood that has produced the current war on drugs. It's held up as a national issue of grave importance. They emphasize how much obesity or lack of exercise costs society.

I've given this link elsewhere on fornits, but since it relates to the subject at hand (the Drug War) I'm posting it here too:

http://www.buzzflash.com/reviews/05/rev05050.html

http://www.progressivesource.com/Page.html

Great book. I highly recommend it.

22
The Seed Discussion Forum / Aging Seedlings on drug policy
« on: December 16, 2005, 12:53:00 AM »
Thanks antigen. There's also a good article about Tulia in this week's Newsweek mag. I don't make many friends with my position on drugs on either side of the issue. I believe recreational drug use is generally unhealthy or 'bad'...this makes most drug users irritated...but I'm also completely opposed to any laws against drug possession...and this makes the anti-drug crowd equally as irritated. I don't see any contradiction in this pov. I don't think eating copious amounts of junk food is good for people either but this doesn't mean that I think people should be arrested and imprisoned for eating twinkies. High cholesterol is 'bad'...but imprisoning people for having high levels of it in their blood is not a good idea, imo. I'm opposed to cigarette smoking but am even more opposed to making smoking illegal. As a society, we seem to be coming to the point of thinking that if anything is bad for you, there should be a law against it. Seatbelt laws are a good example. Using seatbelts is a good and healthy habit and not using them may increase your chance of dying in a car accident. But does it follow that we should be passing laws to save adults fom themselves and fining or arresting them for failing to protect themselves? Are we perpetual children that need a father(land) or mother(land) to make sure we don't hurt ourselves? Or a big-brother government to protect us from ourselves? If we executed jay-walkers I'm sure it would decrease the incidence of this crime too.

 What substances adults choose to put into their own bodies should be no-one's business. If we start down the road of 'what's good for society'..then we may as well start compulsory calisthenics as in the People's Republic, pass criminal laws against being obese or arrest people for reading books that contain 'dangerous' or harmful ideas. To me, this isn't a left vs right or liberal vs conservative issue at all. Both sides are guilty of this sort of thinking. Liberals want to save us from watching tv that might contain violence or racial or sexist stereotypes while conservatives want to save us from seeing adults having sex in movies or hearing dirty words on the radio. Both sides tend to evoke 'children' to justify their positions. Sorry for the rant, but I'm very passionate about this issue. The only thing more dangerous and unhealthy than individual freedom is the lack of it.

23
The Seed Discussion Forum / Teenage Wasteland
« on: December 10, 2005, 02:24:00 PM »
Dark Side of the MOON?!
I was told I only liked that sort of music because it reminded me of being high. I stayed in guilt / conflict about listening to such music for most of my program. You must be on drugs...right? :grin:

Seriously, I still love floyd. The best concerts I've ever seen. "We don't need no thought-control.." I like a lot of those other artists too. I'm surprised. Most folks our age don't seem to like much new stuff. My wife still prefers 80's rock.

24
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 10, 2005, 02:11:00 PM »
Greg, when I saw this thread I thought it was just for socializing and touching base with old friends too. Great idea. But it seems Magpie should share at least some of the responsibility for it being derailed herself. I get the impression that she and others perhaps really wanted a thread where they were free to talk only positive, pro-seed pov's without being contradicted by any dissent or disagreement here. Strictly party-line stuff. (if you go back and read some of the posts it wasn't just socializing, it was about how wonderful the program was.) That is exactly what we had at the Seed itself. One side only. I think it's fine if you and Ginger want to provide such a thread (free of any anti-seed sentiment) but it shouldn't be 'disguised' as a reunion-socializing thread, imo. Wouldn't we then need an all anti-seed thread where any pro-seed comments are deleted? Isn't this the same way of thinking that the program itself engendered?

25
The Seed Discussion Forum / Good Friends/Reunions Only
« on: December 09, 2005, 12:19:00 PM »
--quote----

"Where dissent and dissagreement are not welcome and encouraged, we're bound to magnify errors."

-----------

And that's exactly why I think the organization(s) are at fault more than the individuals who may have been a part of it. From sociology we know that people tend to behave in crowds in a different way than as individuals. I think the same is true of people in organizations of various sorts. Any group, culture or organization that discourages dissent or disagreement tends to go bad at some point, however good the original intent was.

Many political pundits have made this point in regards to the current administration. The president has surrounded himself with people who are reluctant to disagree with him, so any tiny error becomes magnified instead of corrected. I see the same phenomena over and over in studying different religous organizations. It's the whole problem with authoritarian structures.

Until the final confrontation, it seems no-one was willing to criticize or question Art's judgement on anything of significance. The same applied to staff to a lesser extent. No-one who was a mere group-member could challenge or question any rap leader or staff. The whole thing was founded on that top-down authority. Any mistake at the top was conducted and magnified downward.

Once upon a time, a man and the devil were walking down the street. They watched as someone walking ahead of them reached down and picked something up. The devil began to laugh with delight whereupon the man with him asked what the person had picked up;
Devil: "Ah, that person just found Truth."
Man: "Truth?, I would have thought that would be very bad for you. Why are you so happy?"
Devil: "Because I'm going to help him organize it!" :smokin:

It's how we got from 'love thy neighbor as thyself' & 'judge not lest ye be judged' to the inquisition and bashing infants heads upon rocks to save their souls.

26
The Seed Discussion Forum / Addiction to the group, addiction to drugs
« on: December 07, 2005, 11:53:00 PM »
Here's another link to Stanton's website and some excerpts from some of the letters there.:

http://www.peele.net/faq/index09.html

--------anti-program observations that sound remarkably similar to those reported here:

"It's interesting to note that I never encountered a 12-Step adherent during that crucial period who failed to diagnose me as suffering from a "cunning, baffling and incurable disease". They had the answer, period.
Like you, they all held, as an article of faith, that it did not matter HOW I got their "help'...only that I DID GET IT! And there was complete faith I would be suitably "grateful" afterward - indeed such "gratitude" being a litmus test of whether someone has actually "gotten it".
Throughout the depths of my personal trial - during which the outcome was very much in doubt - one central theme was reinforced and impressed upon me at every juncture...if I didn't drop my perverse and pig-headed "denial" and "surrender" to the "program" I was irrevocably doomed."

--------pro-program observations that also sound familiar:

"My observation is that you are so miserable being clean & sober, you might as well go back out & use. Working some type of recovery program, whatever it may be really is the only thing known to work in the long run. Yes there are those determined to prove this wrong all the way to their grave. I have met many of these poor souls & have never met an angrier, unhappy group in my life."

27
The Seed Discussion Forum / Addiction to the group, addiction to drugs
« on: December 06, 2005, 09:05:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-06 07:39:00, cleveland wrote:

""certitude of thought is also provided. Through worship of a leader and agreement with those around them, the young people lose their uncertainty and anxiety and will sacrifice any other commitments or interests to preserve this state. An interesting sidelight of this form of addiction is that if young people do leave the movement, they tend to become as negative toward the organization as they once were positive and may attack it just as fanatically as they once defended it."




Man! that really says it all. The True Believers vs the Apostates. All evident in our little microcosm right here.  Thanks Walter. Interesting article too. Very thought-provoking.[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2005-12-06 18:07 ]

28
The Seed Discussion Forum / New Article
« on: December 04, 2005, 04:46:00 AM »
Quote

Its to bad we all dont live in countries like singapore where programs like the Seed dont exist.






-----quote
"Trucker, you can't be serious! Singapore is what I imagine the Seed would have been had Art managed to commandeer his own private island state."


---------

Took the words right out of my mouth, Ginger. Singapore itself is like one big Seed program in many ways. Internet censorhip, media censorhip, public whipping for spitting chewing gum on the sidewalk. I don't see where the government of Singapore would have any objection at all to seed-type programs...as long as they were sufficiently 'patriotic'.

http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=280

"In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening. By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird."

- George Orwell, 1984


29
The Seed Discussion Forum / New Article
« on: November 30, 2005, 03:30:00 PM »
Absolutely awesome! :nworthy: Great analysis of the program and I could relate  :lol: to nearly every point. Thanks...though reading that did bring back that sick, unsettled feeling of being back there.

30
The Seed Discussion Forum / Seed Dream
« on: November 28, 2005, 07:29:00 PM »
Yeah Walter, I've had recurrent dreams of the Seed over the years. None were pleasant..and none were cool like yours...mostly just dreams of being back in group with that same oppressive feeling. The most intense seed dreams were the night I found this website. Now that I think about it, I think that may have been the last time I had a seed dream. This board must be more of a healing influence than I thought.

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