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Messages - marshall

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Hi wanderingjew. I remember you well. I was at the Seed from 76-77. Your dad got me a job doing yardwork at the hospital where he worked. Sorry to hear about your loss. Glad to see you're doing well. You came to this forum a little late though. There were lots of good and often heated duscussions a few years ago. I think everyone sort of said their peace and lost interest. I guess there's only so much to be said but I found this site very helpful at one time. I was surprised to find people still so divided about the Seed and how so many different people could have such different experiences. One person swears it made them a better person while others swear it destroyed their lives. I guess I'm somewhere in-between. I don't hate anyone involved. Staff members were all victims too, imo. But being at the Seed remains the worst period of my life (so far) and I'd hate to see anyone sent to a similar program. Take care N.

BTW Terry, I'm up to 5 grandchildren now. Hope you both are well.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: totalism and the seed
« on: July 02, 2009, 10:32:58 AM »
I watched an episode of Southpark last night (7/01/09) that brought the Seed and discussions here immediately to mind. Stan's dad went to a bar, got drunk and was driving home with kids in the car. He gets pulled over, arrested and ordered to attend AA by the court. At the AA meeting the rap is about how they are all powerless over alcohol. Think think think is plastered on posters on the wall. The 12 steps are posted in front. Stan's dad buys into the whole dogma and claims he has a disease called alcoholism and that he's powerless to stop drinking without the help of a miracle and God. Later in the show (which I highly recommend if you can catch it at some point) Stan keeps telling his dad that the whole powerlessness dogma is b.s., that he can quit if he wants on his own. Stan goes to AA group with his dad and points out that AA is like a religion. The leader of the rap asks Stan "don't you know what a 12 step program is?" To which Stan replies: "Yeah, and I know what a cult is too!". This whole program severely critisizes and questions the 12 step TC programs and powerlessness dogma while pointing out the obvious pseudo-relgious aspect of AA. It was a great show. Stan's dad says: But son, don't I need to completely stop drinking, not even a drop? Otherwise I'll be an alcoholic." Stan replies: "No, dad. You are not powerless. You like drinking. You don't have to stop drinking completely. Have a drink sometimes or even two. Just don't drink too much." Stan's dad finally concedes that his son is right. I'm sure my recount of the episode doesn't do it justice.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: split twice,lauderdale ''74
« on: April 09, 2009, 09:50:55 PM »
I was at the Seed for a little over a year and Art had the limo (driven by Robert) when I got there and when I left. So he definitely had it for more than a year. We were told it (or a previous limo, not sure) was a gift from Jackie Gleason. I was also told by oldcomers that Robert indeed functioned as a body guard for Art. I don't think he had any official position or designation as a bodyguard, but it was generally understood that this was the case and nobody seemed to think much of it at the time. I still drop by to read here from time to time and was surprised to see that Ginger and Terry are still at it. Thanks again Ginger and Greg for providing this forum. It really helped sort things out for me...the good, the bad and the ugly.  You guys take care.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Who's worried about Social Security?
« on: May 19, 2006, 03:40:00 PM »
Excellent debate / posts on Soc. Sec. everyone. Here's my 2 pennies: It's a complex issue with no easy answers, imo. Seniors tend to vote in disproportionate numbers and this gives them extra clout on the issue. One of my son-in-laws & I have discussed this issue often. He advocates simply dropping the program or at least adopting GW's suggestion of giving people the option of investing in the stock mkt. instead. Since the average age at which americans die has risen so sharply since s.s was enacted, I favor a gradual increase in the age for qualification...slowly raising the retirement age to 70 or 75. If medical science announced tomorrow that some discovery has pushed average american life expectancy to 150, the country would go broke pretty quickly from s.s. alone unless there was a corresponding rise in the age for eligibility. Yet this is exactly what has happened gradually since s.s. was enacted. Raise the retirement age and the problem is greatly mitigated. However, given the strong (and growing stronger with all of us approaching retirement) senior lobby, this isn't likely to happen. Then you can add some form of means-testing and the crisis would be solved, imo. People often oppose this on the grounds that the money they paid into s.s is theirs and they therefore are owed the money back regardless if they actually need any supplemental income. Strange that when (as is usually the case now that americans live so much longer) they recieve 'more' than they have paid into the system, few complain that they are recieving money they didn't pay in. How many wealthy seniors begin to send the s.s. checks back to the government when the total exceeds their lifetime contribution? You can't have it both ways. Either the money is yours simply being stored by the government in which case your checks should end when the amount you paid in equals what you have recieved OR it's a program to stave-off extreme poverty that often used to be associated with old age. In which case means-testing is entirely valid. As to the whole socialism / capitalism issue, I realize my pov is distasteful to ideologues of both camps (extreme socialist / communist & extreme capitalists) but history seems to show us that some mixture of the two gives the best economic results in the long haul. I say this purely from a pragmatic standpoint since I've been a business owner & employer (thus responsible for making those withholding payments) most of my adult life and actively trade in the financial markets.  Of course we may all log on here in a few more years as genuine old geezers and insist upon our right to government handouts...'how the heck can I be expected to make my yacht payment without my s.s. check?'

Tacitus' Realm / Bush roast
« on: May 09, 2006, 02:19:00 PM »
On Saturday night, over 2,000 journalists, politicians and Washington insiders gathered for the White House Correspondents Association annual dinner. President Bush was there and took part in a skit with presidential impersonator Steve Bridges. And then there was the featured entertainer, Stephen Colbert, the host of the Comedy Central fake news program, The Colbert Report.

If you followed how the corporate press covered the night you might not have even realized Colbert spoke but he gave a talk that repeatedly mocked the President and the press for its failings. According to the media watchdog group Media Matters, subsequent press coverage focused only on Bush's light-hearted comedy, while omitting mention of Colbert's blistering performance.

On May 1, all three major networks played clips of Bush's routine on their morning shows, but ignored Colbert entirely. CNN's American Morning did the same. The New York Times initial coverage of the night omitted any reference to Colbert. Several media critics have questioned why the press ignored Colbert's criticism of the president. At the same time, the Colbert performance has been one of the most talked about topics on the Internet.
Here' an updated transcript of Colbert's gig.. I could swear he's channeling Groucho Marx there at times, or is it Agent Smith...?

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Before I begin, I've been asked to make an announcement. Whoever parked 14 black bulletproof S.U.V.'s out front, could you please move them? They are blocking in 14 other black bulletproof S.U.V.'s and they need to get out.

Wow. Wow, what an honor. The White House correspondents' dinner. To actually sit here, at the same table with my hero, George W. Bush, to be this close to the man. I feel like I'm dreaming. Somebody pinch me. You know what? I'm a pretty sound sleeper -- that may not be enough. Somebody shoot me in the face. Is he really not here tonight? Dammit. The one guy who could have helped.

By the way, before I get started, if anybody needs anything else at their tables, just speak slowly and clearly into your table numbers. Somebody from the NSA will be right over with a cocktail. Mark Smith, ladies and gentlemen of the press corps, Madame First Lady, Mr. President, my name is Stephen Colbert and tonight it's my privilege to celebrate this president. We're not so different, he and I. We get it. We're not brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We're not members of the factinista. We go straight from the gut, right sir? That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you are going to say "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book.

Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works. Every night on my show, the Colbert Report, I speak straight from the gut, OK? I give people the truth, unfiltered by rational argument. I call it the "No Fact Zone." Fox News, I hold a copyright on that term.

I'm a simple man with a simple mind. I hold a simple set of beliefs that I live by. Number one, I believe in America. I believe it exists. My gut tells me I live there. I feel that it extends from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and I strongly believe it has 50 states. And I cannot wait to see how the Washington Post spins that one tomorrow. I believe in democracy. I believe democracy is our greatest export. At least until China figures out a way to stamp it out of plastic for three cents a unit.

In fact, Ambassador Zhou Wenzhong, welcome. Your great country makes our Happy Meals possible. I said it's a celebration. I believe the government that governs best is the government that governs least. And by these standards, we have set up a fabulous government in Iraq.

I believe in pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. I believe it is possible -- I saw this guy do it once in Cirque du Soleil. It was magical. And though I am a committed Christian, I believe that everyone has the right to their own religion, be you Hindu, Jewish or Muslim. I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe it's yogurt. But I refuse to believe it's not butter. Most of all, I believe in this president. Now, I know there are some polls out there saying this man has a 32% approval rating. But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in "reality." And reality has a well-known liberal bias.

So, Mr. President, please, pay no attention to the people that say the glass is half full. 32% means the glass -- it's important to set up your jokes properly, sir. Sir, pay no attention to the people who say the glass is half empty, because 32% means it's 2/3 empty. There's still some liquid in that glass is my point, but I wouldn't drink it. The last third is usually backwash.

Okay, look, folks, my point is that I don't believe this is a low point in this presidency. I believe it is just a lull before a comeback. I mean, it's like the movie "Rocky." All right. The president in this case is Rocky Balboa and Apollo Creed is -- everything else in the world. It's the tenth round. He's bloodied. His corner man, Mick, who in this case I guess would be the vice president, he's yelling, "Cut me, Dick, cut me!," and every time he falls everyone says, "Stay down! Stay down!" Does he stay down? No. Like Rocky, he gets back up, and in the end he -- actually, he loses in the first movie.
OK. Doesn't matter. The point is it is the heart-warming story of a man who was repeatedly punched in the face. So don't pay attention to the approval ratings that say 68% of Americans disapprove of the job this man is doing. I ask you this, does that not also logically mean that 68% approve of the job he's not doing? Think about it. I haven't.

I stand by this man. I stand by this man because he stands for things. Not only for things, he stands on things. Things like aircraft carriers and rubble and recently flooded city squares. And that sends a strong message: that no matter what happens to America, she will always rebound -- with the most powerfully staged photo ops in the world.

Now, there may be an energy crisis. This president has a very forward-thinking energy policy. Why do you think he's down on the ranch cutting that brush all the time? He's trying to create an alternative energy source. By 2008 we will have a mesquite-powered car!

And I just like the guy. He's a good joe. Obviously loves his wife, calls her his better half. And polls show America agrees. She's a true lady and a wonderful woman. But I just have one beef, ma'am. I'm sorry, but this reading initiative. I'm sorry, I've never been a fan of books. I don't trust them. They're all fact, no heart. I mean, they're elitist, telling us what is or isn't true, or what did or didn't happen. Who's Britannica to tell me the Panama Canal was built in 1914? If I want to say it was built in 1941, that's my right as an American! I'm with the president, let history decide what did or did not happen.

The greatest thing about this man is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man's beliefs never will. As excited as I am to be here with the president, I am appalled to be surrounded by the liberal media that is destroying America, with the exception of Fox News. Fox News gives you both sides of every story: the president's side, and the vice president's side.

But the rest of you, what are you thinking, reporting on NSA wiretapping or secret prisons in eastern Europe? Those things are secret for a very important reason: they're super-depressing. And if that's your goal, well, misery accomplished. Over the last five years you people were so good -- over tax cuts, WMD intelligence, the effect of global warming. We Americans didn't want to know, and you had the courtesy not to try to find out. Those were good times, as far as we knew.

But, listen, let's review the rules. Here's how it works: the president makes decisions. He's the decider. The press secretary announces those decisions, and you people of the press type those decisions down. Make, announce, type. Just put 'em through a spell check and go home. Get to know your family again. Make love to your wife. Write that novel you got kicking around in your head. You know, the one about the intrepid Washington reporter with the courage to stand up to the administration. You know - fiction!

Because really, what incentive do these people have to answer your questions, after all? I mean, nothing satisfies you. Everybody asks for personnel changes. So the White House has personnel changes. Then you write, "Oh, they're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." First of all, that is a terrible metaphor. This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring. If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!

Now, it's not all bad guys out there. Some are heroes: Christopher Buckley, Jeff Sacks, Ken Burns, Bob Schieffer. They've all been on my show. By the way, Mr. President, thank you for agreeing to be on my show. I was just as shocked as everyone here is, I promise you. How's Tuesday for you? I've got Frank Rich, but we can bump him. And I mean bump him. I know a guy. Say the word.

See who we've got here tonight. General Moseley, Air Force Chief of Staff. General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They still support Rumsfeld. Right, you guys aren't retired yet, right? Right, they still support Rumsfeld. Look, by the way, I've got a theory about how to handle these retired generals causing all this trouble: don't let them retire! Come on, we've got a stop-loss program; let's use it on these guys. I've seen Zinni and that crowd on Wolf Blitzer. If you're strong enough to go on one of those pundit shows, you can stand on a bank of computers and order men into battle. Come on.

Jesse Jackson is here, the Reverend. Haven't heard from the Reverend in a little while. I had him on the show. Very interesting and challenging interview. You can ask him anything, but he's going to say what he wants, at the pace that he wants. It's like boxing a glacier. Enjoy that metaphor, by the way, because your grandchildren will have no idea what a glacier is.

Justice Scalia is here. Welcome, sir. May I be the first to say, you look fantastic. How are you? [After each sentence, Colbert makes a hand gesture, an allusion to Scalia's recent use of an obscene Sicilian hand gesture in speaking to a reporter about Scalia's critics. Scalia is seen laughing hysterically.] Just talking some Sicilian with my paisan.

John McCain is here. John McCain, John McCain, what a maverick! Somebody find out what fork he used on his salad, because I guarantee you it wasn't a salad fork. This guy could have used a spoon! There's no predicting him. By the way, Senator McCain, it's so wonderful to see you coming back into the Republican fold. I have a summer house in South Carolina; look me up when you go to speak at Bob Jones University. So glad you've seen the light, sir.

Mayor Nagin! Mayor Nagin is here from New Orleans, the chocolate city! Yeah, give it up. Mayor Nagin, I'd like to welcome you to Washington, D.C., the chocolate city with a marshmallow center. And a graham cracker crust of corruption. It's a Mallomar, I guess is what I'm describing, a seasonal cookie.

Joe Wilson is here, Joe Wilson right down here in front, the most famous husband since Desi Arnaz. And of course he brought along his lovely wife Valerie Plame. Oh, my god! Oh, what have I said? I -- Je -- minetti (sp?). [looks horrified] I am sorry, Mr. President, I meant to say he brought along his lovely wife Joe Wilson's wife. Patrick Fitzgerald is not here tonight? OK. Dodged a bullet.

And, of course, we can't forget the man of the hour, new press secretary, Tony Snow. Secret Service name, "Snow Job." Toughest job. What a hero! Took the second toughest job in government, next to, of course, the ambassador to Iraq. Got some big shoes to fill, Tony. Big shoes to fill. Scott McClellan could say nothing like nobody else. McClellan, of course, eager to retire. Really felt like he needed to spend more time with Andrew Card's children. Mr. President, I wish you hadn't made the decision so quickly, sir.

I was vying for the job myself. I think I would have made a fabulous press secretary. I have nothing but contempt for these people. I know how to handle these clowns. In fact, sir, I brought along an audition tape and with your indulgence, I'd like to at least give it a shot. So, ladies and gentlemen, my press conference.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Dr. Margaret Sanger
« on: May 04, 2006, 02:02:00 PM »
Trick or Treatment
Teen drug programs turn curious teens into crackheads.
By Maia Szalavitz

The Seed Discussion Forum / the seed indeed
« on: February 17, 2006, 03:24:00 PM »
Can't believe no-one's mentioned Jeannie yet. Barbara Eden in that little I'd forgotten agent 99 and That Girl. I had a thing for a witch on Dark Shadows named Angelique too. Man, I was such a little perv, I loved em all. Lauderdale, you're the first guy I've heard mention Lucy. And a flying NUN frchrisake? How many hail mary's did that get you? I never fell for any cartoon characters though. Snow White, huh? My grandkids went through a stage where they watched The Wizard of Oz over and over...which reminds me...I was in love with Dorothy too! Is this really a male thing or do little girls do this too? And to bring it back on topic...why didn't we ever discuss this in guy's raps? It might have been funny.

The Seed Discussion Forum / the seed indeed
« on: February 17, 2006, 10:44:00 AM »
anon wrote:
" Is Eudora a Whiches name?"

I think some folks may be confusing Eudora with Endora. Endora was a witch on the old sitcom "Bewitched". She was Samantha's mother. Character was played by Agnes Moorehead. I loved that show (still watch it sometimes on tvland) & was in love with Samantha when I was a little tyke. (& no, Tyke is not a butch lesbian either)

BTW, Just curious; did anyone else ever have a crush on any tv characters as a child? I literally cried when my mom told me I probably couldn't marry Ginger (tina louise) from Gilligan's Island when I grew up.

The Seed Discussion Forum / damaged beyond repair
« on: January 25, 2006, 10:54:00 PM »
stripe wrote:
"Sure, it's fine for a drug addict to premise their life on powerlessness and addiction, but if you are not powerless and are not an addict, it's a false premise."

Great post Stripe. Just wanted to add to Greg's comment about this line.  I've mentioned here that I have been addicted to some degree to several substances during my youth. All were legal. I became addicted to prescribed valium at one point. This went on for over a year. I also developed an addiction to codeine in a prescribed cough syrup that lasted for months. I was able to stop both of these on my own before I ever went to the Seed. How could this be possible? Wasn't I supposed to be a powerless druggie in need of a group and program to overcome such dependencies? Like many others I also became strongly addicted to cigarettes before and especially during my one point smoking over 2 1/2  packs of Kool per day.  I was able to quit this 5 year addiction too all by myself a few months after I graduated the Seed. (quiting during the program would have been extremely difficult) These are the only true addictions that I've ever had (discounting my ongoing daily use of caffeine) and none were 'cured' via the seed or any other program. So what did the Seed cure me of? An addiction to pot? Beer? Those were the only drugs I used habitually (aside from tobacco) during my preseed days. All the rest could best be categorized as experimentation or curiosity. I took speed 5 or 6 times over 3 years. Qualudes a few times less than that. The rest consisted of hallucinogenic drugs...none of which are addictive or even habit forming for the average person. I used mescaline once, what we called THC  20 or 30 times over 3 years, LSD 5 times and mushrooms 20 or so times and hashish a dozen or so times.  Is this what the Seed cured me of? I was already tired of daily pot use by the time I went to the seed. Since I was able to quit all 3 of those truly addictive drugs, I can't imagine why I wouldn't have also been capable of stopping the use of cannibis or other hallucinogens without any program as well.

For me, this brings the whole program lie into focus. I am definitely not powerless over drugs or alcohol...and despite program assertions to the contrary, apparently never was. And why does someone such as myself not use drugs & rarely use alcohol...while so many of those who still embrace the party-line of powerlessness still battle on-going addiction issues? Does the dogma of powerlessness somehow encourage the very behaviour it seeks to end? I think this is very likely. If I truly believed I was powerless over alcohol, after the first time I drank a beer with my father I may have thought 'what's the use? I took a drink...oh god! Now I'm a worthless piece of shit. Might as well get drunk every day now.' I can see how this very premise might have caused me to become an alcoholic. Or the one time well over a decade ago that I decided to smoke a joint. If I believed I was powerless I would have had similar thoughts and concluded that I was now a hopeless druggie so why not get high every day and go find some smack or coke? I can be around groups of people smoking pot now and feel no desire to smoke it. I don't run out of the room, seedlike, in a panic to escape lest I succumb to my supposed 'powerlessness'. IMO, the doctrine of powerlessness is all a bunch of hooey. Not only false, but probably actually harmful.[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2006-01-25 19:59 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / "if you don't, she will die"
« on: January 21, 2006, 02:02:00 AM »
On 2006-01-20 08:37:00, GregFL wrote:

"I sure wish Suzie Connors would show up here...

Yeah, me too. We have GOT to find out if she is or is not a red head! I mean...was she naturally red and then used coloring or maybe naturally brown and dyed her hair red? Will we ever really know? Only if she shows up here and tells us herself...or maybe links us to a picture...or webcam. And...was Robert really a black man or was that just a clever disguise? What was the story behind Art combing his hair like Count Dracula? Did Terry peroxide his hair? Did Libby wear a thong? Stay tuned.

The Seed Discussion Forum / "if you don't, she will die"
« on: January 20, 2006, 12:41:00 PM »
Now I'm confused too. I distinctly remember Suzie Connors but I don't recall her having red hair. I do remember a staff member named Darlene that had bright red hair though. I never knew Suzie Barker at all. I had a nice oldcomer too. We remained close friends for years after we both graduated the program.

The Seed Discussion Forum / My Moral Inventories
« on: January 16, 2006, 10:57:00 PM »
Greg wrote:
"But for a while, somewhere in there, I bought in, and for months I was a 'real seedling', and It took me years to forgive myself for being so weak and for betraying myself."

Amen to that. Couldn't have said it any better. :nworthy:

The Seed Discussion Forum / My Moral Inventories
« on: January 16, 2006, 10:55:00 PM »
anon wrote:
"I became passionate about the real motivations behind my thoughts and actions. I would dissect something I had thought or done to such a degree that I was left with real satisfaction of understanding myself."

That sounds great. I've kept a journal of sorts off and on for years and it can be useful in doing just what you describe. I still try to honestly examine my own motives, thoughts and actions. Unfortunately, the moral inventories that I wrote at the Seed were not really attempts at honest understanding. At best, any real insight was warped by having to have it conform to seed ideology. Mostly I just parroted what I heard in group. We were not really free or encouraged to openly examine our true thoughts or motives and follow where that might lead us since doing so might lead us to points of view or ideas at variance with acceptable program thinking.

"The further I got from the seed days the harder it got to tune out the noise. There is a lot of bullshit in this world and I am amazed at how strong some people are in their beliefs based on erroneous thoughts."

Funny, I had just the opposite experience. The further I got from the influence of the seed, the easier I was able to honestly examine myself. The Seed regarded anything that contradicted or didn't fit their worldview as 'noise'. Who gets to determine which thoughts are erroneous? What is erroneous to me may seem to be absolute truth to you. To me, many of the beliefs I was encouraged to embrace at the seed were themselves based upon what I later determined to be erroneous thoughts.

The Seed Discussion Forum / "if you don't, she will die"
« on: January 16, 2006, 10:31:00 PM »
That was a great series of posts, Julie. I think many of the fierce Seed supporters may fear that if they begin to question or honestly examine the program itself the whole edifice may crumble. Some may even believe criticizing the program will lead to their relapsing into drug abuse.

I can understand their concern since I had similar concerns for years. It's like the first time I drank a beer with my father two years after graduating the program. I half expected and wondered if I'd be in the gutter with a needle in my arm within a short time....or dead, insane or back in jail. It was the same with talking to &  associating with 'druggies'. Surely this would lead to my destruction. The power of that conditioning was very strong and it took years to begin to see through it. Here I am 28 years later & I still rarely drink over 2 beers or a glass of wine & that only occasionally. No drugs, no insanity, etc.

Of course to some program proponents any serious criticism of the Seed equals being a drug addict, criminal or angry, self-indulgent pseudo-intellectual that embraces questionable ideology (meaning ideology that is at variance with the Seed party-line). Congrats on your courageous decision to apply honesty to the tenets and methods of the program itself.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Katrina damage - Looking for the positive...
« on: January 11, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »
My son just called from New Orleans last night. (He's operating heavy equip. doing clean-up with a company working for fema) He said there are still lots of families living on the interstate...homeless. While suburban homes and yards are being cleaned up, houses in the poorer sections were simply bulldozed. It's not in the news much anymore so I had no idea things were still so bad there. He also said they are still finding bodies nearly every day.

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