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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 09, 2004, 11:50:00 PM

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 09, 2004, 11:50:00 PM

Please testify at this site again. It seems we have lost you and/or you have edited out your quotes.

You could really help with alot of this stuff.

But maybe this is too painful for you.  

Some postings were very helpful.

For any staff w/inside info, please call investigators.  There are people who deserve justice.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 10, 2004, 02:42:00 AM

Sorry - had to do it. That bitch, Ottawa 5 just got too scary with her threats. It's just the way it is. Yes, the investigator has been called. As for posting, her threats became too scary - we deleted threads because of her. There clearly is something wrong with that woman and I don't want to be hurt by her. Have you noticed all the energy she puts into the threads and the vigor of her defense of CEDU? She got too scary with her rants. I hate to say it, but it's true.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 10, 2004, 09:13:00 AM

I am the "scary" Ottawa5 "bitch" poster---and this is one of the silliest things I have read here.

What threats? There aren't any---I hope that this Anon poster is just seeking sympathy/attention by pretending to have weathered all these terrible assaults from me.  If he/she really believes this, well, there is a need for some kind of attention to keep hold of reality.

Anyone can check the veracity of this person's statements just by looking at my posts.

The only thing that I can remotely gather as being what Anon is referring to is one time when I was attacked by some person who was absolutely hysterical because I had defended a different point of view, and I said something like it was libelous to falsely accuse people of illegal acts.

It is, by the way, although no libelous statements had been made but that seemed to be the direction the hysterical remarks were going and that was the reason for my comment.  

If someone is such a fragile hot-house flower that this constitutes a threat, then good luck to them functioning in the real world, if they ever happen to find themselves there.

As for the scariness of the time I put into these threads, I don't see how that is Anon's concern but I really don't spend much time at it---I've got to assume that Anon is a pretty slow, laboriously reader, writer, or typer, or perhaps very low on energy, because it really doesn't take much of my time at all to check in and respond from time to time.

[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-10 06:14 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-12 18:50 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 10, 2004, 09:51:00 AM

Ottawa, the fact is, once you threw legal terms around, it scared people, and staff have been threatened before. When you leave CEDU, you are persona non grata.  Yes, I understand that there were a lot of presumptuous comments made, even abusive ones, and certainly some diagnoses that may be a bit hasty. But noone knows who you are anyway...

And, from some of your threads, it seems you are reverting back to some dismissive, superior, and presumptuous statements yourself. You don't use foul langauge, you kill 'em with condescension instead.  If you could read past the anger and rage of some posts, you might just see that these people had very traumatic experiences at CEDU.  I know for a fact that the stories are not made up. Maybe you can find some compassion.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 10, 2004, 09:59:00 AM

( Ottawa 5) I remember reading the posts that scared this Anon, and I remember that you referred to having a whole team of lawyers under your payroll.  I also remember you telling several posters that you were printing their posts prior to their deletion, and that you were contemplating turning over said posts to your lawyers for review!

If that's not a threat for taking legal action O5, then I don't what is.  Also, I can't think of anything more hysterical or desperate, than threatening a lawsuit in order to silence people who disagree with, or question your motives.  This is exactly what you did.  But I do have to admit, that your terror tactics did work on some of the posters here, but not me.

I stand behind every comment I've ever made here regarding cedu, and I would gladly defend those statements in court.  I have the truth, and personal experience on my side, and YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE ME!!!

The Anon is definately right about one other thing--- YOU ARE A BITCH!

(O5) Why are you still here?  It's obvious that you have already made up your mind about Cedu, and that you intend to fulfill your dream of founding yet another Synanon-Based Hell Hole institution to mind fuck these kids. You continue to dismiss the inherently abusive nature of these programs, despite the countless testimonies supporting this fact, which you've already heard.

Why do you continue wasting so much time and energy debating us?  Why not spend this time working at Cedu, where you will learn first hand all of the mind-fucking techniques, which you so vigorously defend?  It seems to me that this would be a far more beneficial approach towards achieving your goals.

The only reason I can think of to explain why you still come to this site is this: you are completely obsessed with making the rest of us view cedu in the same light that you do.  Any rational person would see this as a futile effort, and would've moved on a long time ago.  Yet you are still here.  Maybe you really do have some sort of psychological disorder that make you a total control freak, as other posters with psychology backgrounds have suggested in the past.  Hell, I'm no psychologist, but it is quite plain to me that you've gone completely BAT SHIT!

Then again, a crazy women running a synanon school, is very consistant with the standard Cedu model.  You might be perfect for the job after all.  

I truly feel sorry for all of your future victims.

.
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-10 07:02 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 10, 2004, 10:28:00 AM

I have a lot of concerns about what has happened to some posters here, especially because it happened in the name of what I consider to have been a good, useful program, at least at the time my son was in it: just because I don't emote to your satisfaction on a web site, please do not assume that I do not.

Speaking of me being presumptuous, what gives you the right to judge my level of concern on such a superficial basis?  Life is not the Jerry Springer show, you know, all sensation and over-the-top declarations, and superficial blurting that passes for real feelings.

I will show my concern in real life, by doing something to improve these programs and, in other ways, to help kids who are ruining their lives because they have lost regard for the value of who they are.

The authenticity of my concern is something that I judge by my interactions with others every day and that is how I will continue to judge it, not on the basis of your constant long-distance and may I say, not terribly objective, evaluations in this forum.

Thanks, but I'll leave what you apparently view as a correct "one-size-fits-all" style of theatrical caring to those who are better than I am at playing to other people's assumptions.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 10, 2004, 10:29:00 AM

Not with a spitting master like you. And I don't have any interest in, or hope of, silencing anyone.

The truth is an absolute defense against libel, isn't it?, if you are speaking the truth, not making wild perposterous comments, such as that someone may be tampering with witnesses, the comment that was directed to me in the exchange in question, then you have nothing to fear, at least as I understand the law--it is true that I have many lawyers in my family but I am not one.

Anyone objective reading my comments and your comments here can easily look back on anything I've said, and judge for themselves what my position is.  For the ones who are not objective or pretending to be, well, I don't really care what they think or what they stretch the truth to say, as a way of slamming me.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 11, 2004, 02:36:00 PM

Like I said before, someone questions your motives for coming to this site, and you threaten to sue!!! Desperate O5, very desperate.

The idea that someone who plans to open up a school modeled after Cedu would come here to tamper with potential witnesses in a criminal investigation of Cedu, may not be as far fetched as O5 would have the rest of us believe.

Now before you have a hissy fit and call your lawyers on me O5, allow me to state for the record that the next few paragraghs I'm about to write are pure speculation.  I do not know Ottawa5 personally, nor am I aware of her true motives.  I am in no way suggesting that O5 is here to tamper with potential witnesses or any other illegal activity, again I am engaging in pure speculation here, so humor me.

Hypothetically speaking:

I know that if I was planning to open up a school modeled after Cedu, I would be very concerned about the outcome a criminal investigation against cedu school.  A criminal conviction against Cedu would be extremely damaging to the prospects for success of a future school modeled after Cedu's program.

Can anyone here imagine how difficult it would be to lure potential investors into such a school, if the program it is modeled after (cedu)was found to be guilty of criminal abuse in a court of law?  No one in their right mind would throw their money away on something like that!

Futhermore, how many responsible parents would send their kids to a school that is modeled after an institution that was found guilty of criminal abuse?  It's a no brainer, a criminal conviction against Cedu would smash my chances of ever getting my Cedu-like school off of the drawing table.

Now of course I could lie to my investors and to my future clients regarding the origins of my emotional growth program, but that in itself would be illegal, and could possibly open me up to a plethora of lawsuits and criminal charges, should the truth ever be discovered.  No, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

I know myself,I am someone who would do anything to acheive my goals.  If starting a Cedu spin-off emotional growth school was my main goal in life, then I would certainly feel threatened by a criminal investigation against cedu. I would view this website and the posters here as an obstacle towards the realization of my goal.  I would do everything in my power to prevent criminal charges against cedu being brought to court.

One approach that I might take to prevent cedu from going to court, would be coming to this site, and trying to persuade potential witnesses to believe that the abuses they suffered never really happened, or at least convince them that these abuses are not representative of the Cedu program as a whole, but rather the work of a few misguided and poorly trained individuals.

Again, I've been speaking hypothetically of course.  But bearing what I've just said in mind Ottawa5, maybe YOU should take a second look at some of your previous posts.  It may help you discover exactly what led people to believe you might be tampering with potential witnesses in the first place.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 11, 2004, 05:44:00 PM

Really SOS,you ought to start a business supplying mystery writers with interesting plots.

Look, where illegal things have happened at one or more CEDU schools, I want those schools held legally accountable.  Maybe you would, as you say, do anything to reach your goals, but that's not me, if something is dishonorable, I'm not going to do it, there is always another, better way, if you look hard enough.

But having said that I want any illegal things that went on at CEDU prosecuted, I reiterate that when an emotional growth program is run well, with kindness, insight and discipline, I believe (and have seen) very good things come out of that kind of program.

I am aware that you don't believe this, but I do, and I am not going to deny what I know to be true simply to be popular at a web site.


Bottom line: I really don't think that CEDU is going to be shut down any time soon. I think that this is just wishful thinking among the relatively small number of ex-students, etc. who post here. Everything that I am aware of, and I study this stuff from many angles, makes me believe that the views I hear at this site are not the only views and not the majority view by any means.

Do you remember a few years ago there was a widely covered story out of California about some 16 year old kid who got put in a boarding school outside the US?  The kid was able to make a phone call to a neighbor who contacted the police saying that the kid's rights were being violated because his parents were sending him by escort to this school against his will. While the kid was at the school, the neighbor pursued trying to get the courts to order his return.

The case was heard before a California judge and promptly dismissed on the grounds that the parents had the right to make this decision.  At the hearing, the court room was packed with parents of students and graduates of the school who came, some from very long distances, to testify to the positive difference that the school had made in their experience.

Now I don't remember which school this was, although a little searching in news archives could probably locate it, and I don't even know if it is a good program, or if it is still in existence or anything else about it.  But this happened several years ago when there was much less realization that teenagers sometimes need to be restrained from doing harmful things and that parents must have the right to stop certain behaviors (you can tell that public opinion has moved away from an attitude of allowing minors to do as they please, in any number of polls, they're not hard to find).

I just don't see anything that suggests it's realistic to think that these programs are going away.  But where there have been real abuses, I am completely with those who want the perpetrators punished.  Just like I would be for supporting liability in any other industry for companies that break the law, while still seeing the value of the existence of the industry overall.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 11, 2004, 07:19:00 PM

How do you hold people accountable for subjecting teens to experimental 'therapy' that is condoned by the majority of americans who believe punishment is 'therapeutic'? Surely, you have studied the pros and cons of behavior modification. Highly controversial and potentially very damaging. I have witnessed programs make changes through the years, when they finally decide that x technique is inappropriate or abusive. The very best one could hope is that they continue to change until there is no more BM in any program. But, then, how will they 'control' the teens? Because the ones I've had experience with understood very little about how to be in respectful relationship with teens.

Do you think you could make a difference in teens lives without the use of BM? Or do you plan to employ the same techniques?

There's a good thread on the THI forum for you to consider:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#60610 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3088&forum=9#60610)

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2004, 11:33:00 AM

Deborah--I owe you a long post, I believe, and since I am waiting for my son and his girl-friend to arrive, this might be a good time.

I want to address this phenomenon of "behavior modification" that you keep referring and to point out that it existed long before there were emotional growth schools and also long before there was psychology.

When you convinced or demanded or coerced your 4 year old child to wash his hands before dinner when he didn't want to, you were in fact modifying his behavior. Although, hopefully, you could convince him to do so, without having to carry him to the sink screaming, even if you couldn't, over time you would presumably persuade him that germs exist, it's yucky to be dirty, etc, and then his thoughts would follow his behavior and he would start to motivate himself to clean up before eating.

So I would bet, in this or other scenarios, that if you are at all a responsible parent, you have used behavior modification already.

Now of course, it becomes more complicated as a child gets older, because part of growing up is learning to make your own choices, judgments and also mistakes, so that as a child grows, a responsible parent starts to give a little growing room.  And as an adult, that child will have a broad ability to think through and reject washing his hands or a great number of other things that you may tried to teach him.

But what about when an adolescent child gets so off track, either because of parental, individual or societal issues (or some combination thereof), that there is a clear danger of physical and legal ramifications?

You, I understand, would just let this child run amok and put your faith in reasoning (even when the child was refusing to listen), and the virtue of offering complete freedom (to someone who will likely use it for potentially serious self-harm).  I am not talking here about, say, a child who wants to be adolescently obnoxious,eat too much candy or who wastes his allowance: natural consequences, while painful to the child, are not going to do serious harm. I am talking about a child who, at a developmentally reckless time in life and in a reckless frame of mind, is doing seriously self-endangering things. I would stop it and you would not: we reach no common ground at all on that point.

Now, there is no question that behavior modification can be used for evil purposes, or could be used with too much force or punishment to justify its application---there at least we can agree.  Where we disagree is whether an emotional growth experience is an evil purpose.  Some of the stories I've heard here, and I have no reason to doubt them, suggest, again, that you and I could agree that at some schools, or at some times, the techniques being used were excessive, certainly for some students.

So, to answer your question, if you have a school that teenagers must remain at, by its very nature, this involves modifying behavior, since the child would like to leave (this being a behavior) and cannot.  In this way, yes, I think behavior modification will be part of any program which addresses kids who are determined to leave.  Other aspects will probably be what you would condemn for being coersive, such as having to perform certain activities to get certain rewards, having to follow rules, and so on.  I think that I would adopt more reward systems, perhaps, than I've heard about in the current schools,so as to make the requirements more palatable and less resentment inducing, until the kid comes to the point of seeing the logic behind them and starts to think about and accept that there were reason why he was sent to the school in the first place.

On the other hand, I would not, for example, absolutely require attendence at a propheet until the child was ready to agree to it.  From what my son tells me, most everyone that he was with, looked forward to the propheets, but many people here hated them. I have a sense that even if they were not required peer pressure and the availability of caffeine at them (which I hear was a big selling point in attending) would probably encourage most kids to participate.  For those who weren't ready, it would perhaps to better to wait.

So hope that's clear, get back to me if it isn't.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 12, 2004, 05:41:00 PM

Yes, punishment and rewards existed long before psychology expanded on them to develop techniques for modifying behavior. Parenting is not ?behavior modification?. The role of adult is that of teacher, guide, or role model. The former is disrespectful, the latter is not. Rewards and punishments have never been and will never be a replacement for aware parenting. Programs employ these techniques for two reasons. They have more kids than they can genuinely care for and because reward and punishment is easier- requires less thought, just follow the textbook, any Joe can carry it out. It is a default method of parenting when one doesn?t know how to foster a respectful relationship with a child.

I perceive a distinct difference between teaching, guiding, modeling; and behavior modification.  In the example of the 4 year old you gave, one would be teaching through modeling- if everyone washed their hands together before a meal. In most households I?ve observed there is a double standard. The child is expected to wash while the parents don?t.  If the child refused, I would assume that there was some unrelated physical or emotional issue that was interfering with her ability to be cooperative- given that I believe that a person that has inner happiness/contentment is cooperative, even 4 yr olds who also want to participate in what the group is doing. In general, I believe that kids will behave better if parents abandoned BM and focused on the underlying issue of the child?s unhappiness/discontent.

So, everyone?s washing their hands and the 4 yo refuses. I have two choices. I can coercive, bribe, threaten punishment, deny her food at that meal- employ BM. Or I can recognize it for what it is- is she overly tired? Is she not ready for the transition from play to dinner? Or does she have a need to get some stress off. I?d deal with all three differently. Tired- probably wash them for her. Not ready- put her meal aside until she?s ready. Stressed- I would simply take her hand and restate that it?s time to wash up. I would do this for two reasons, consistency in teaching and to intensify the underlying feelings so they can come to the surface and be resolved. If it?s an issue that I feel is important I am not going to negotiate, or bribe. Chances are good that she is going to cry. I listen. If she falls on the floor, then I put washing hands on hold and expect to listen for a longer time. Invariably, the underlying distress is going to be vented and she will then be able to return to her cooperative self. I can?t tell you how many times, in a similar scenario, the child has vented about something that happened earlier in the day that was distressing. IF, I am not in a space to listen, I might distract her with some humor to get her laughing, knowing all the while that I have only temporarily suppressed some feelings that will most assuredly surface with the next frustration or request for cooperation. Carrying a four year old to the sink screaming and demanding that she cooperate would not be an option I?d consider.  I wouldn?t try to convince her of the necessity either. Four year olds don?t understand germ theory, but they do like to be a part of the group and do what everyone else is doing- ie learn. When she?s older, she might ask why we wash before dinner. That would be the time for rational explanation.

This dynamic doesn?t get more complicated with age. The process can, because the person can become resistant to venting what?s bothering them.

I can?t think of a situation in which I would send my child to a program. If I took action it would be at home. For instance, put bars on the windows, stand in front of the door and refuse to allow him to leave. If I did this it would not be carried out as a means of control, but for the same reason stated before, to intensify the underlying feelings so they are brought to the surface and resolved. You are going to be the target at that point, and rightfully so if you?ve been a dictator or have been oblivious to your child's real needs; which most parents aren?t equipped to deal with- so some preparation is fundamentally essential to avoid more resentment. If a parent does not want their teen to leave the house to participate in potentially dangerous behavior, they could prevent it. Short of that, any parent can also employ the same BM techiniques the programs use at home. The question remains unanswered.
Why don't they?
And, why did you hire strangers to do it?

If you are going to hold teens against their will, which is not BM, but incarceration; then the most respectful thing you can do it to TEACH- model, guide how to be in more respectful relationship with others. Confrontation in EG programs and workshops, as I have witnessed it, is in fact an attack, designed to shame, blame, and humiliate a person into conforming. In a word, manipulation. I think it is much more useful to be bluntly honest with compassion.

I don?t believe people acquire genuine emotional growth through rewards and punishments. It is a by-product of being treated with respect in an environment that recognizes the uniqueness of each person and allows many options for learning and experiencing successes; an environment in which inner happiness and contentment, peace is fostered; an environment where people?s concerns, frustrations, fears are heard and appreciated. Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a teen?s inner most thoughts? While there are those whose thoughts and concerns are no deeper than ?will I make head cheerleader?, many have deep concerns about the environment, what the world be like when they are adults, why the adults around them act so stupid and irresponsible, why the culture fears them, why they are invisible. They have some very valid concerns and fears and rarely a place to discuss them. The ones who are aware are frequently the ones who look for ways to free themselves of their discomfort and are considered a problem.

Emotional growth is not a by-product of a BM warehouse where teens are isolated from their families and subjected to irrational rules and expectations which carry hurtful and unreasonable consequences.  While rewards may induce less resentment, the teen is aware that they are being manipulated, and there is not always going to be someone dangling a reward in front of them when they are out in the real world.

Has it ever occurred to you that it could be very beneficial to allow the teens to design their own community? Allow them to create the rules, or at the very least, participate in the process? Research has shown that people are much more cooperative when respected this way. Allow them to determine how THEY will deal with a member of their community who is not pulling their load in terms of chores? If and how they choose to pursue an education? Could you support such an environment? Could you facilitate this process?

Personally, I don?t see any benefit in bribing a teen until they start to ?think about and accept that there were reasons why they were sent to the facility?. That is a major problem with this standard MO of all programs. It never is entirely the teen?s fault. It focuses on their behaviors as the problem rather than the underlying fears, concerns, resentments, insecurities, and general bullshit they might have been reacting to. One of these are always present when someone is not at peace with themselves and others. In effect, to incarcerate a teen is to indirectly say they are being punished for the way their underlying feelings manifested- how they reacted to their environment. That is an inaccurate beginning assumption. For most, it is the assumption that the teen is acting consciously and maliciously. If you start with that assumption, everything you do will be useless in terms of aiding another human being in regaining their peace of mind, dignity, and self worth.

I appreciate this professional?s take:
In conclusion, ultimately it is the regulatory ability that leads to our success as individuals in society. Unfortunately too many parents themselves lack the mature regulatory system to be effective regulatory teachers to their children. The parents therefore seek professional help and the professional often times enhances the state of dysregulation by being child behavior-centered. When this is occurring the child is often blamed, labeled, and the behavior given repeated consequences, in worse case scenarios, the behavior is medicated or the child begins to act out to such a degree that he is placed in residential treatment. As long as there is not a parent willing to take the responsibility to communicate the necessary regulatory lessons, the child will not develop the necessary effective regulatory skills.
==

To that end, I think it would be extremely challenging for any program to teach self regulation, and do so in a useful way. It would require a paradigm shift away from reward and punishment, a very carefully designed program with master facilitators who are there to guide the teens? decision making process and offer suggestions when inevitable mistakes are made.

I think that if someone was successful in creating such an environment for unwanted, distressed teens, it would be hugely successful. It would grow quickly, displacing the BM industry; which would die a natural death and not a minute too soon.

Yes, we are paradigms apart in our thinking. I don't expect to change yours but I hope when you are desiging your 'program' that you stop ocassionaly and think about what respecting a teen might look like.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-12 15:24 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 12, 2004, 09:46:00 PM

Why do you think toddlers get toilet-trained, kids eat with utensils, children learn to listen when instructed?? Do you think that these are natural phenomena?  No, they occur because someone, usually their parents, start to mold their behavior in a certain direction.

Now, the problem with you is, for some reason, you think that this very normal thing, something, in fact, that it is any parent's responsibility to do, is somehow bad.  Sounds like old, recycled thinking from the 60's to me; at least in that time period, it was intellectually interesting to consider a "no limits" approach to child rearing, because the harm that came from this kind of approach had not yet been acted out in the real world.

Of course, where possible, even with the smallest child, you use reason and persuasion, it is more pleasant for everyone and a good model for future reasonable interaction as the child grows up. Self-regulation and reasoned discourse is the ultimate aim, and it is to be sought, earlier, rather than later.

It is, however, not always possible, in an instanteous sense, you might just as well face it. Sometimes a child wants to run into the street, strike a baby sibling, eat something poisonous.

By all means, explain and reason, but the immediate necessity is often a cessation of the behavior, perhaps with explanation after the fact as well as before.

I think that you and I would agree that emotional warmth and openly expressed love are centrally important to making the child understand the reasons why his/her instantaneous wishes must sometimes be over-ruled. But it is a necessary part of growing up to learned that there are in fact limits and that it is the parental role sometimes to enforce these limits. Some parents, perhaps you are one of them, have had to learn, to their deepest regret, that this is a lesson that adolescents need to function in the world.

I often think that what parents need most is not education or even knowledge, but courage.  By that I mean courage to do what they know at a gut level is normal and good. Too much of the way of thinking that I find myself ascribing to people like you seems, by its very nature, to undermine that normal parental instinct toward love and discipline.  

Since you have been so kind as to offer me numerous websites to consult, over the past weeks, let me suggest that you read Neil Postman's "The Disappearance of Childhood" (I am just that kind of antiquarian who prefers books to websites). It spells out the importance of differentiating between adulthood and childhood in a societal as well as in a personal sense.

I do not believe that you are a malevolent person by any means, based on your writings, I do think that you are somewhat naive, at times, about human nature and the duty of parents to act like adults in the parent-child relationship.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2004, 02:00:00 AM

O5

 I think its only a matter of time before someone strikes a blow against CEDU, and I wouldnt be suprised if it was a major one. You have to keep in mind 05, that theres hundreds of people who claim to have been abused in one form or another while attending CEDU,alot of these people come from VERY wealthy familys,familys with alot of  power. Like I said before its only a matter of time until some big shot lawyer infiltrates CEDU, theres probobaly more law suits going on right now than you'd realize, and whos to say what the outcomes going to be? Its not like the amount of people who claim to of been abused while attending CEDU is depliting its only growing, and growing rather rapidly at that. So while the number of abused kids and lawsuits rise, the chances of CEDU getting away with its unlawful behaviour for much longer grows slimmer by the day.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: van_islander_hedican on September 13, 2004, 02:02:00 AM

van_islander_hedican

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 13, 2004, 10:19:00 AM

Randy Nelson, Brett Newman, Jodi Wolfe, Justin Short, Kevin Wagner, Ryan Alworth, Anuka Mikelson, David Noval, Crystal Gantt, Kim Krodel, Jeremy Purcel, Laura Dupree, John Peterson, Jeff McGuiness, Anthony Stevens, Ilyana Mercado, Sharie Ogress, David Jarmen, Sean Daly, Justin Barney, Juan Soto, Anthony Edwards, Leslie Bernstein, Carly Shields, Ben Shapiro, Marie Villarie, Jeter Krutchfield, Rob Nielson, Trevor Cook, Gina Marsen, Anna-Bell Johnson, Li Ping Kuan, Violet Hanson, Michelle Weinstien, Alia Weiner, Gene Jasper,.....

That's 37 Names that I can remember from the top of my head, Ottawa 5.  Thirty-seven names of kids who attended & dissappeared from Cedu-RS during my stay there (Dec 28, 1990-July 6, 1992).
Add myself to the list and that makes 38. Thirty eight Kids that I can name, who disappeared in the year and a half that I spent at Cedu-Rs. And there are many more names that I can't remember
Ottawa 5, MANY MORE!

Many of these names are Kids who were in my peer group, the majority of them split repeatedly until they finally got away and were never heard from again.  The others refused to succumb to Cedu's Mind Fucking tactics, and were shipped off to various mental hospitals, wilderness survival camps, and lock-up facilities.

I just gave you 38 people who no doubt feel severely wronged by Cedu, that's 38 people who I can name! And I saw what I described happen to a lot more kids, but it was 12 years ago, and I can't remember them all.  Perhaps Bryan remembers more.

I'm not the only one here with a list of names Ottawa5.  Every poster who comes here has their own list of names, we just haven't found all of the people yet.  There Are thousands of us Ottawa5, and YES, WE DO REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF FORMER STUDENTS AT CEDU SCHOOLS.  

Still not convinced Ottawa5?  Well, you don't have to take my word for it.

HEAR YEA! HEAR YEA!

  I HEARBYE CALL ON ALL OF YOU FORMER CEDU STUDENTS WHO VISIT THIS THREAD TO POST YOUR OWN LIST OF NAMES OF KIDS YOU SAW BEING FUCKED OVER AND THEN DISAPPEARED FROM WHICHEVER CEDU PROGRAM YOU WERE IN.

Lets show Ottawa5 once and for all just how many Cedu Victims we are talking about!

.
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-13 08:50 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 13, 2004, 01:41:00 PM

Only Kids I remember whom I know Didn't finish the program at RMA. This will only be about %10 of actual number:
Vanessa Wahab, Somebody Diamond, Bill Nelson, Pete Matesi, Tom Van Derav?, Ed Sparkman,  

I was gonna list so many and it's just faces...It has just been way too long. Sorry, I'm sure more will come to me and I'll post them, it is strange.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 13, 2004, 02:03:00 PM

Hey its me SOS again.  I just started a new thread entitled "a call to all, read this thread."

Anyone who has a list, post it there.  I want to tally all of the names and come up with a total. Whoever you can remember, POST IT!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Antigen on September 13, 2004, 02:37:00 PM

You want something like this? http://fornits.com/anonanon/revoke.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/revoke.htm)

We are a one party country. Half of them call themselves Democrats and the other half call themselves Republicans. All the good ideas come from the Libertarians.
--Hugh Downs

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 13, 2004, 04:19:00 PM

Yes Antigen, once we have all of the names, we could compile a list like this for cedu, and post it somewhere for potential future and current Cedu parents to read. That's an excellent idea!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 13, 2004, 09:09:00 PM

O5, This is where you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion. It appears that you are attempting to expand the definition of BM to include instruction and teaching. Way off base.

I do not believe that learning to use the toilet is BM. (No pun intended  :lol: ). Unless you are issuing rewards and punishments for performance.  As you may notice, I don?t care for the word ?train?. It makes me think of animals, particularly horses, where the objective is to break the will. My kids learned to use the toilet by observing other human beings use it. Same with utensils, same with listening.  I consider learning by observing to be teaching, modeling; and more desirable. I disagree with the belief that kids have to be molded. You seem to discount their intelligence and ability to learn through observation and practice, without rewards and punishments. As far as I can tell parents resort to molding, or modifying, when they want the kid to perform on their time table. Because they want to take pride in the fact that their child was ?trained? to shit in the toilet before they knew what shit was. And that?s not 60s, recycled thinking. It?s Montessori.

I said the parents role is to teach by modeling, guiding. Although you seem to see this as a ?problem with me?, I don?t. Some good comes from each generation- the 60s was not an era to be ignored- it?s ignorant to throw out the baby with the bath water. And weren?t those ?no limits? parents following some pop-psychologists? recommendations? Scared shitless of emotionally scaring their kids- so swung to being overly permissive- not wanting to be like their own authoritarian and puritanical parents. Extremes create extreme reactions. That?s the crux of that lesson.

Just as well face what O5?  Don?t attempt to speak for me or imply that I have said something I didn?t.
I never suggested that I wouldn?t stop a child from running into the street, or from striking a sibling, or prevent the fatal consequence of eating poison. Quiet the contrary. What is your agenda to suggest otherwise? I did suggest that it would be beneficial if parents didn?t rush to overprotect and rescue, thereby robbing the child of valuable developmental lessons- the kind that ONLY true natural consequences teaches- AND, if the consequence would not result in injury that would require medical attention. In large part, it teaches those important lessons of ?limits?. Some kids are so overprotected that they don?t know their own limitations, much less those of society. They are not allowed to make mistakes, but are rather subjected to molding by parents and society- functioning under the false belief that reasoning and persuasion can prevent experimentation- can circumvent the human drive to learn through experience, or circumvent the underlying emotion(s) driving the destructive behavior.  Hence, teens catching themselves on fire, jumping off roofs, etc- yet another extreme reaction to authorities attempt to control rather than guide. This thinking also wrongly assumes that a person?s ?destructive? behavior is a result of errant genes, mental illness, or maliciousness; never, or rarely does it consider that it is a result of not having one?s needs met. Psychology scrambles to find some elusive excuse, when its so plain and simple, short of brain damage. But they do accurately recognize the limitations of parents. So, instead we get labels, drugs, and BM facilities- the quick and effortless fixers.

My observation is that we don?t learn through osmosis. Your fear based story (persuasion) is not going to stop me from doing anything that I am driven to do. We may agree that what I am driven to do is destructive, and if so, from that point we might explore why I am driven to do it,  and proceed to dismantle the underlying cause. You are not going to persuade a two yr old not to climb a tree if everything in his being is driving him to do so. He?ll just do it behind your back, be anxious about getting to the top before you notice, and probably get hurt. But, you can stand under the tree, prepared to catch him when he falls. Experience- the absolute very best teacher. The problem with most parents, that?s just too damned inconvenient. And don?t confuse this to mean letting them get hit by a car. I think you know we?re both more intelligent than that.

After reading a few reviews, I?m not interesting in investing in Postman?s book
http://www3.sympatico.ca/ersatz-sprocke ... rance.html (http://www3.sympatico.ca/ersatz-sprocket/disappearance.html)
http://www.rememberingneilpostman.com/000077.html (http://www.rememberingneilpostman.com/000077.html)
http://interact.uoregon.edu/MediaLit/ml ... rance.html (http://interact.uoregon.edu/MediaLit/mlr/review/disapperance.html)
I agree with some of this author?s thinking, but for me, I think he has a faulty beginning assumption. The media and TV are not solely responsible for the ills of society, OR the Disappearance of Childhood. Afterall, there was/is ample ?bad? information in books as well. TV just brought the thoughts, beliefs, and values written in those books into our homes on a daily basis. Books, traditional literature and schooling are not a panacea. It?s simply not that black and white. It could be argued that TV, depending on what one is watching, could actually be a very positive thing-  taking us back to a time of oral tradition-  which I?m aware doesn?t have much value amongst many academians. That may be an explanation for why so many people are more drawn to TV than reading. They?d rather hear the spoken word than isolate with the written word. I?d much prefer to hear my grandmother tell one of her fascinating non-fiction stories about REAL people, than to read. or be read, a boring ?approved? children?s book.  They were boring when I was a kid, and I refused to subject my kids to most of the classics. Speaking of which, were no more than adult entertainment passed off as children?s books and nursery rhymes. Fuck a bunch of mother goose. Some of the shit was down right morbid. And how can a child deal with death, when society has removed him/her from the process? Relegated it to be something you read about, but don?t experience. How is it helpful to talk about it in books when they don?t talk about it at home, they don?t see it, or touch it, experience it. Rescue people from dealing with their dead, rescue them from their grieving process, rescue them from burying their dead. Rescue, rescue, rescue. There?s a damned lot of conditioning going on, creating emotionally weak human beings, who have lost all sense of what ?living? is.

Parents need the courage to be real and honest with their kids. The courage to not control from fear. The courage to listen and respond.

I have no idea what you are attempting to say here, ?Too much of the way of thinking that I find myself ascribing to people like you seems, by its very nature, to undermine that normal parental instinct toward love and discipline.? If you care to be specific, we can further discuss this. Otherwise, it will fall by the wayside as another attempt to misrepresent me.

That?s my rant. If you have a different opinion you are entitled to express it. I am not interested in hearing any further elitist evaluations of my thinking and opinions. Let's see if you can meet the challenge.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 13, 2004, 09:32:00 PM

The thing I don't get is why Ottawa thinks the "confrontation" therapy is helpful.  The only confrontation therapy I saw was pretty friggin' abusive, malignant, and even untrue.  Badgering to submission to either strip your spirit or coerce you to either exaggerate your history or even lie.  What kind of guidance is that? I can respect DIRECT talk and serious inquiry, as well as a nurturing of your strengths and positive feelings, but not the screaming abusive CONFRONTATION where you are badgered to scream at everyone... Even your own self.  Primal BS scream therapy.  

Anyone remember "running your thinking" etc.  You are basically--under careful, intent, hopeful observation--supposed to put your head toward the floor and scream at you thinking.  If you can get some snot flying and even some vomit spewing, a gold star for you.  

Also, the staff making everything a sin. Thus if you smiled at the opposite sex, they tore you a new one.  HELLO?! I was sixteen!! That's what we do!!!!  Don't make normal innocent urges a crime for fuck's sake.  Thereafter, it took me a long time to get over thinking that being even a trifle flirtatious was tantamount to sluttiness.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2004, 10:27:00 PM

I was just reading the posted listed in the link below, and there was one that really caught my attention.

This post relates to a woman who felt like the pain would never end, and she comitted suicide.   The post reads:

In a court deposition Nancy stated that she was taken into the intake room because she refused to admit to having used drugs. Once inside the room the seven people surrounded her and screamed obscenities at her and spat on her. This is called the Bomb Squad in Straight. They screamed that she was fat and ugly, she alleges, and not pretty like her sister. A. N. stood there, she testified, and watched as they bent her finger back. And back. And back until it touched her arm. That's when it snapped! Imagine being self conscious about your weight and having people scream at you that you're fat and ugly, and not pretty like your sister as they break your finger! On October 15, 2000 the Richmond, Virginia Police found her body outside her apartment. She had plummeted, mysteriously, from her fourth floor apartment window being killed instantly. On Nancy's wrist, above her index finger, was a lone tattoo. It reads DISCIPLINE!

I am not sure what to say after reading that post except ... FUCK ALL THESE PROGRAMS!!!

If there is a hell,  I hope that is a special place those people who hurt Nancy.

May all the Nancy's find the much sought after peace.

Quote

On 2004-09-13 11:37:00, Antigen wrote:

"You want something like this? http://fornits.com/anonanon/revoke.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/revoke.htm)"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 13, 2004, 11:46:00 PM

Shanlea,
Hear me out before you tune me out.  I have a different perspective of Primal Therapy. I think it is a valid therapy for anyone who is drawn to it, but like any ?therapy? it can be bastardized and misapplied by ignorant people.

When someone has been traumatized, systematically abused and tortured, and silenced, they often can?t just put it behind them and move on, as witnessed by many survivors. Many go through talk therapy and ultimately end up on a chemical soup of drugs to suppress their symptoms?RAGE. This is one reason I so highly value the forums at Fornits. It provides a venue for survivors to vent til their heart?s content ( or their heart is free), in whatever form or fashion they deem appropriate, without judgment or critique or censorship. Some people need to ?relive? those experiences and vent their resentments about the person/people who wronged them before they can move on. They can?t ?just do it?.  I tend to believe that those who can?t ?just do it? are far more likely to genuinely get over it in the long run.

It?s like the scene in ?Sea Biscuit?, when the young man is asked in sincerity ?who are you angry at??  He?d been carrying a chip for many years. That anger was misdirected at anyone who vaguely resembled the perpetrator. The perpetrator in his case was ultimately the economic crash- who ya gonna vent at? Some of it got laid on his parents. In the movie, the writer suggests that people heal by just deciding to let it go. He goes to the bridge and releases his past. That?s all nice and all, but it doesn?t work that way for the majority of people. I?ve known people who orchestrated similar rituals, or made agreements to let it go, but it continued to manifest in their daily lives. Witness the masses dependent on 12 steps. So, I personally find value in going directly to the person and venting all the venom you feel. Short of that, do it in therapy with a therapist who is not afraid to witness your full out rage. When done well, it?s like the relief you feel after vomiting when you?re sick and writhing with pain. Or, taking a good shit after 3 or 4 days of constipation. Or having someone open the car door that you have slammed on your finger.

Now, is primal therapy appropriate for teens? NO- not the way you described it. It could be if done thoughtfully and carefully. What you described is a bastardized attempt at primal therapy. Here?s my guess. Someone experienced or witnessed a primal session, or read a book, and adopted it as part of the program?s ?bag of tricks?, with no real understanding of the process. They, like many ignorant people, believe that if they can make the kid LOOK like they are having a primal session, that they are indeed having one. Wrong!!! Like many people believe that if they can persuade or otherwise stop a person from crying that they have healed the persons grief. Har!! If what you described wasn?t so damned wrong, it would be hilarious. The depth of their ignorance is astounding. My son went to a high dollar TBS on the east coast. I saw numerous, equally ignorant attempts to subject teens to therapy that was not age appropriate or facilitated in any useful way. Some of what they did violated counseling ethics.

PT is totally useless when contrived and/or one is coached on how it should look, or given any other direction or suggestion. It is most useful when it happens spontaneously, like if you were talking with a very close friend and went into some old memories and let yourself go with it?. And then screamed all the resentment you had for that person. Resentment that you were forced to ?stuff? when the abuse was happening. I?ve done it. Not the genuine article, but a similar therapy. I love it. Would I require anyone to do it, especially teens, and the way the program is doing it. Unequivocally, NO!! They should be jailed for the torture they are subjecting kids to under the guise of ?therapy?. Fucking lunatics. Misguided money mongers.

And, I should say that there may be some people that conduct Primal Therapy as you described it. That is not my understanding of it.

Hey, here?s one for ya Ottawa. How?s this for ?Disappearance of Childhood?? What do you think about the ?therapy? Shanlea described?  Appropriate for teens? Or even adults for that matter? I spose it was another of those isolated incidents huh? My how the isolated incidents are adding up to be a long string of consistent abuse.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 14, 2004, 08:09:00 AM

I understand what you are saying.  And in reality, if primal therapy is a good way to vent then let it out. What CEDU did I call primal BULLSHIT therapy because as you said, they bastardized it and seem to think that people screaming obscenities at you is good therapy.  Also, you hit the nail on the head when you said that it doesn't work if its contrived.  There was so much pressure to have a screaming snot spewing session--you weren't really working hard unless you did.  I always felt prssure by the staff to have a total primal brak down to advance--but everything felt so facilitated in that joint that it was hard for me to conjure up one ounce of authentic emotion in those raps.  (And I cry at AT&T commercials for God's sake!) They want you to cry over the story script they give you--there is no opportunity or sufficient trust to let you release your feelings when you are ready.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 14, 2004, 08:10:00 AM

The above post was mine.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 14, 2004, 12:53:00 PM

***they bastardized it and seem to think that people screaming obscenities at you is good therapy.

That should not have happened and is not useful, as you well know. Again, what I did was not PT, but very similar, and no one would ever have screamed obscenities at another person. Absolutely unnecesary and serves no useful purpose.

**Also, you hit the nail on the head when you said that it doesn't work if its contrived. There was so much pressure to have a screaming snot spewing session--you weren't really working hard unless you did. I always felt prssure by the staff to have a total primal brak down to advance--but everything felt so facilitated in that joint that it was hard for me to conjure up one ounce of authentic emotion in those raps.

Yeh, I've seen this before with unskilled or overly invested facilitators in various therapies. They are not skilled enough to help facilitate a release so they try to force the person to emote. It's more about their need to feel important or successful (effective). Contrived emoting is useless and damaging. Years ago I attended a therapy group. The counselor was big on 'anger release work'. I was pretty damned angry at the time, so thought I'd try it. He continually prompted me to 'get in touch' with it. What I didn't know then, was that I couldn't get in touch with it because I didn't FEEL it at that moment, sitting in that new group of strangers. If he'd let me talk about my situation long enough, perhaps I would have. So, feeling pressure 'to perform', I tried to 'make' myself feel it. I slammed a bat into a pillow, and made sounds at his promptly, but had no emotional release. I did have a reaction- I had a seizure on the way home. Something that NEVER happened in future experiences when I had a genuine release of emotion. I have a-typical epilepsy, so judging by that experience, I would guess that a forced or contrived release is damaging to the nervous system. Contrarily, a genuine release is extremely beneficial.

***They want you to cry over the story script they give you--there is no opportunity or sufficient trust to let you release your feelings when you are ready.

Only ACTORS can cry on demand. And that's what I feel they turn out at these programs.
Sounds like another story I heard about their techniques, may have been your's, can't remember. But, it was something about role modeling a character. Again, a potentially good therapy, when executed by a skilled, caring person. Damaging the way the program does it.

I'd like to have a list of the different therapies used, detailing specifically how they were executed. I would like to present this to some of my PhD friends and have them comment about it. This should also be a focus point in any lawsuit. Is their so-called 'therapy' useful or actually abusive.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 14, 2004, 03:54:00 PM

There was a huge pressure to perform. I mean the snot flying, real tears, burst blood vessels in the eyeballs, gut wrenching screaming like bloody murder if you were walking around outside the raps. And if you didn't or resisted because you weren't feeling it that day that's when they really thought you needed a good working over. "Your closed off! You're numb! Get off of your ass you piece of shit! Let's hear what's going on!"
If I had a dollar for every time I was being "too headsy", "too intellectual", I would be much wealthier today. After over a year of being trained that to scream  and cry taking care of feelings is the ONLY way to avoid being punished, you learn to act. You unlearn what you should feel under "normal" circumstances. You do anything to make the screaming insults and obsenities at you stop. Including try to turn the indictments on someone else. By the time I was an older student I was a master at this.
In fact exploring raps in my recent thoughts is so far one of the most difficult things I've had to do. Going back and make myself experience some of this shit again.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 14, 2004, 05:52:00 PM

I'd like to believe I was only acting.  Maybe I was.  But I was acting so good, I believed it myself.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 15, 2004, 12:12:00 AM

It's not that we were all acting, after a while the message isn't intellectual or emotional anymore. It just becomes reflex. Break down quick so the abuse won't last too long, but if you "break down" too soon you will be accused of trying to get off the hot seat dishonestly and will be subsequently punished with writing assignments and work details.
It's just the same that starting from the Truth disclosures where you are taught to one up and to lie (get rewarded)it becomes part of your identity from there after. The actual "truth" is lost in years of convincing yourself how terrible you really would be without the program.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2004, 10:39:00 AM

Thanks, SOS. You?re intelligent and insightful. I appreciate your posts. We?ve been deleting posts as a direct result of that bitch making threats. If you?ve been paying attention, you?ll see that there are three of us who?ve done this. Notice that she has not responded to your pointing out that her claim to have never made threats - is a LIE. She certainly did threaten us, and she cannot deny it - we all saw it.

Furthermore, she is smug, superior, and condescending. My question is the same as yours - what is she doing here? Notice how long her posts are. Look up her posts under the member list. She has a zillion! She tries to convince us that she's so important and busy... why does she have time to write her long diatribes? She says she has an adolescent at home and is writing her dissertation, I believe. Well, I?ll tell you ? I?ve raised kids and I?ve written a dissertation. If she?s telling the truth about this, she?s wasting a hell of a lot of time! I sure didn?t have time for such as this when I was doing all that!

I'll say it here - her posts read like a person with borderline personality disorder. I never saw anyone diagnose her here - just saying that she reads like it. There is a BIG difference between saying that someone's posts read like a personality disorder and actually diagnosing it. However, when that appeared, she jumped all over it, and then when the posts were deleted, she sprang into action, triumphantly pointing out that the person realized that he was inappropriate. This is not the case at all. I know the person who deleted those posts - very well. He deleted them because of something else related to her threats. Certainly not the statement that her posts read like a borderline. They do. That's that. Also, her repeated claims that she never made threats and her self-righteous attitude thereof, even though we all KNOW that she did, is another thing that looks like a personality disorder.

Now, she'll probably respond with another long diatribe, or she'll post something superior and supercilious. I've never seen ANYONE so haughty. I recall that someone said she should print out ALL of her posts and show them to her supervisor. She never responded. I can tell you this - she never will. Any psychologists seeing her histrionic posts would be gravely concerned about her working with people. If she comes in here and claims that she did show every one of her posts to her supervisor, she is LYING. She won?t do it because she knows that any clinical supervisor would be very concerned about her judgment, boundaries, and personality.

My last question - can we ignore that arrogant and patronizing bitch? I've seen some good work in that area, but I?ve also seen plenty of people getting hooked by her bait! Let's get back to it. Let's ignore her completely.

O2  should be left alone. She's being raised by someone who appears to be a lunatic, so she can't help it. She'll learn when she's grown. But O5 has so much time and energy to post her long diatribes. Can we ignore her? How about if we come up with some thing to say to her and ignore everything else she says? Something like, ?Yes, Ottawa, you?re the queen.? Do you think she?s smart enough to get sarcasm? It doesn?t matter, really. I?d like to see people completely ignore her and only say one thing that is a brush-off. Just an idea?

Quote

On 2004-09-10 06:59:00, SON OF SERBIA wrote:

"( Ottawa 5) I remember reading the posts that scared this Anon, and I remember that you referred to having a whole team of lawyers under your payroll.  I also remember you telling several posters that you were printing their posts prior to their deletion, and that you were contemplating turning over said posts to your lawyers for review!



If that's not a threat for taking legal action O5, then I don't what is.  Also, I can't think of anything more hysterical or desperate, than threatening a lawsuit in order to silence people who disagree with, or question your motives.  This is exactly what you did.  But I do have to admit, that your terror tactics did work on some of the posters here, but not me.



I stand behind every comment I've ever made here regarding cedu, and I would gladly defend those statements in court.  I have the truth, and personal experience on my side, and YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE ME!!!



The Anon is definately right about one other thing--- YOU ARE A BITCH!



(O5) Why are you still here?  It's obvious that you have already made up your mind about Cedu, and that you intend to fulfill your dream of founding yet another Synanon-Based Hell Hole institution to mind fuck these kids. You continue to dismiss the inherently abusive nature of these programs, despite the countless testimonies supporting this fact, which you've already heard.



Why do you continue wasting so much time and energy debating us?  Why not spend this time working at Cedu, where you will learn first hand all of the mind-fucking techniques, which you so vigorously defend?  It seems to me that this would be a far more beneficial approach towards achieving your goals.



The only reason I can think of to explain why you still come to this site is this: you are completely obsessed with making the rest of us view cedu in the same light that you do.  Any rational person would see this as a futile effort, and would've moved on a long time ago.  Yet you are still here.  Maybe you really do have some sort of psychological disorder that make you a total control freak, as other posters with psychology backgrounds have suggested in the past.  Hell, I'm no psychologist, but it is quite plain to me that you've gone completely BAT SHIT!



Then again, a crazy women running a synanon school, is very consistant with the standard Cedu model.  You might be perfect for the job after all.  



I truly feel sorry for all of your future victims.



.

[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-10 07:02 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2004, 10:44:00 AM

Here are O5's posts thus far:

http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?searc ... mit=Search (http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?search_username=ottawa5&sortby=p.post_time&searchboth=both&submit=Search)
Read 'em and laugh.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 16, 2004, 03:53:00 PM

Well Im not really sure what to say to this. I find it very amussing that everyone at this site contiues to say they are going to ingore us but then we get a lot of reponses!

As for my mother makeing "threats" I really dont see it. She was responding to another poster who threated her and she was just say that she could find out her rights if need be. Not only that but Its also very amussing that people are deliting posts! Really what do think we are going to do to you? Now if my mother was ranting like Bryan or SOS I could see the point.

Anon: I do not need you to portact me. Trust me I can handle myself if need be.

Really if you are going to be up set with her do it for something she actual did! (She never diened anyones story as I have stated befor if you can find a time tell me! And I have already explain the quote "threat")
 :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 16, 2004, 05:43:00 PM

(Ottawa 2), you are responding in gibberish.  Please ask your mother to teach you how to use "SPELL CHECK."  I know that you're BRAIN DEAD and all, but even a retarded monkey can learn how to press a button.  Oh wait, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be unfair by comparing you to a superior being! Maybe O5 can make up some picture flash cards to explain it to you, seeing as how you're illiterate and all.

It's really hard to respond to you, let alone take your posts seriously, when we can't read them.  You might as well be speaking arabic here, at least then there would exist the remote possibility that someone here might understand what you're saying.

 :wstupid:


.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-16 14:58 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 16, 2004, 08:24:00 PM

Think again. Somebody really try to tell her what confrontation can be. You know...when you can't look away, run away, stand up for yourself, or even go to the bathroom. You know, when you can't eat until you admit to whatever the counselors and their monkey student brainwashed clone RMAzing abusive lookgoods
would have you admit to, make you say, make you feel how they think you should feel and then to guage it- your emotions on how "real" they are...how real you are.
Tell them about the raps, fulltimes, profeets, writing assignments were designed to make you think that you had changed when indeed you were becoming brainwashed. Anything to stop all the vulgar insults. This isn't even close to the kind of confrontation some students/staff were capable of. For jollies, I presume, like why you two come here and pretend to be understanding. Same kind of 'manipulation'.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 16, 2004, 09:00:00 PM

SOS: Maybe you do not get it. (I am suprised I thought that this was really obvious) I do not care what you or what anyone else on this site thinks of me. You do not matter enough for me to take the time to spell check everyone of my posts since I do not spend to much Time here as it is.

Unlike you Im am not consered with looking "cool" to random people on a unknown web site. Personally I think you are a very sad person. But that is just my opinion from what I have seen on this site.

I find it funny that you say I can not be taken seriously when you, bryan, and other post thing that sound like "**** THIS!!! **** THAT!!! YOU ARE A ******* **** WHO WAS BRAINED **** BY THIS **** AND THAT ******* PERSON!!! YOU **** ***** DONT DISAGREE WITH ME YOU *******!!! YOU DONT KNOW A ******* THING!!!"
Really that is what you sound like most of the time.
I have a question: didnt someone just say that you guys were going to ignore me??? (laughs)

As for not responding to Certain thing, you have also fail to respond to thing my mother has said. (like the lady who no longer need antidepressants after a workshop with mel)

I also find it funny it funny that you dont really have any arguments for me. Just personal attacks nothing that really matters.

Anyway I am very sad to say I will not beable to post as often as before due to shool starting. I will contiue to try an check this site as often as I can! I kbnow you are all heart broken by this! (sarcasim people)
 :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 16, 2004, 09:09:00 PM

She's gone for how long?
But good riddance while it lasts.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 16, 2004, 11:42:00 PM

To the Anon (asa TOO-GUTLESS-TO HAVE-A-USERNAME) poster:

You sound most enamoured with the quality of SOS's posts, he is pretty good, though, especially in current company.  But why all the spleen against me?

Writing style is a wonderful thing because it is so recognizable, and even quantifiable on some pretty well-defined bases: I would bet that you are the same gutless Anon who, a while ago, made the untrue (and unethical) statements about me having a personality disorder. Although now you are pretending to be a different gutless Anon in the current post!!!

Only a check of the source, difficult but not impossible, would be definitive, though.

I always think that it's particularly rich when someone drones on and on (as you do) about someone else's posts being long, it probably signifies that writing is quite a chore for a person like yourself. I really don't find that it takes very long at all to respond at this site. That may be, in part, due to the fact that I am speaking from the heart and my own beliefs, instead of slaving over words to retaliate or insult someone else (does that process ring true for you?).

That's it for now, I'm too busy to quibble further at the moment, my little daughter told me to check in because she thought I would get a kick out of the pathetic nastiness in your post.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 17, 2004, 01:12:00 AM

dude, what the hell??  O2 and O5, you guys are sooooooooooo silly! :rofl:  i don't think i've ever heard anything so silly in my entire life! :lol:  you guys need to get you fuckin shit straight and back the fuck off because you guys have NO CLUE what it is that you're talking about!!  let me and the rest of the world know when you figured out you have a MAJOR problem!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 01:23:00 AM

So you haven't ever heard anything so silly----not even in your entire life??

It's hard to believe (having read some of your other illustrious posts) but then you would be the final expert on your own existance.

Well, I'll just have to live with the devastating news that you find me silly, hard to face, but I guess I can manage.

Still, in your post, you were able to make it to line 3 without a four-letter word. That's something at least.

Dude.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Antigen on September 17, 2004, 01:38:00 AM

Quote

On 2004-09-16 18:00:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

I also find it funny it funny that you dont really have any arguments for me. Just personal attacks nothing that really matters.

Well, you don't really ever say anything of substance. Just a lot of personal attacks. You'll find that that doesn't work so well in the real world. Unless, of course, you go on staff in a synanon based program. In that case, I guess you can insulate yourself forever.

Good luck in school, btw. I guess this would be your senior year? You should understand that, among the lies your teacher told you, maybe the biggest whopper was that it's not a popularity contest. It is, dear. Sorry, but it's the truth.

It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples

--Charles Dickens

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Antigen on September 17, 2004, 01:51:00 AM

Quote

On 2004-09-16 22:12:00, **PIXIE DUST** wrote:

dude, what the hell?? O2 and O5, you guys are sooooooooooo silly!

See? The Program only works when they can control communications. It doesn't stand up to reason. That's why we don't need to run anybody off here. In fact, it serves a good purpose to go ahead and let them spew forth. :wink:

The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people equally in war and peace. And covers with the shield of it's protection all classes of men at all times and under all circumstances.
--US Supreme Court, Ex Parte Milligan

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2004, 03:49:00 AM

Good god, woman! I pretend nothing. I never diagnosed you - and you know it. I said your posts READ LIKE a person who is borderline. I'm tired of your rewriting history. The more I read of you, the more I feel that your posts READ LIKE a person with borderline personality disorder. Other people have said similar things.

EVERYONE - Ottawa 5 appears to have deleted her post threatening legal action - remember where she said she printed out our posts and was going to show them to a legal team? Well, I can't find that post!

If she is saying she never wrote that, she is lying. We all saw it. If she tells her daughter she never threatened us, she is LYING! We all saw her threats.

Now, please - can we leave O2 alone? I mean, she said she has a learning disability that impacts her spelling. I think she said dyslexia. So, the kid can't spell. So what? And don't try to convince her of anything - what's the point? She lives with her mother and loves and admires her. You won't get anywhere there.

That brings me to Ottawa 5 - who calls us gutless. Ironic... Ottawa - why don't you put your REAL name here? What the hell is the difference between Ottawa 5 and just posting anonymously? What the hell is wrong with you? Why do you work so hard here to blast and insult us? What do you care what we say about CEDU? You insult us by arguing with our experiences.

Folks, she doesn't really read like a Ph.D. student. I believe she is lying about this. And if she is, and going to a decent school, they'll weed her out. She is WAY too off balance. No boundaries whatsoever.

Now - can we PLEASE ignore her? Can we not respond to her taunts? Of course, I've done it here, haven't I? It's so hard not to - she's so condescending and insulting. However, I'm going to really try. Can you do so, to? I mean, she says such absurd things. And look at ALL the zillions of posts she's put here! She needs some serious help!

So, let's give it a go, shall we? She's anonymos, just like the rest of us. She doesn't give a real name, and, according to her, she has no bloody reason to be anonymous. So, why does she hide? She may be CEDU. Who knows? Do you really care? Let's ignore her!

Quote

On 2004-09-16 20:42:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"To the Anon (asa TOO-GUTLESS-TO HAVE-A-USERNAME) poster:



You sound most enamoured with the quality of SOS's posts, he is pretty good, though, especially in current company.  But why all the spleen against me?



Writing style is a wonderful thing because it is so recognizable, and even quantifiable on some pretty well-defined bases: I would bet that you are the same gutless Anon who, a while ago, made the untrue (and unethical) statements about me having a personality disorder. Although now you are pretending to be a different gutless Anon in the current post!!!



Only a check of the source, difficult but not impossible, would be definitive, though.



I always think that it's particularly rich when someone drones on and on (as you do) about someone else's posts being long, it probably signifies that writing is quite a chore for a person like yourself. I really don't find that it takes very long at all to respond at this site. That may be, in part, due to the fact that I am speaking from the heart and my own beliefs, instead of slaving over words to retaliate or insult someone else (does that process ring true for you?).



That's it for now, I'm too busy to quibble further at the moment, my little daughter told me to check in because she thought I would get a kick out of the pathetic nastiness in your post. "

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 10:30:00 AM

Re whether or not you actually tried to diagnose me with a personality disorder on the sole basis of my posts here: certainly you must remember that in the post you deleted on 8/1, you did, after putting forward your credentials as a psychologist, say definitively that I am hysterical, histrionic and probably borderline (you must have been pretty worked up when you wrote it: you didn't even try to hedge your bets with a "reads like" or any of your other current attempts at answerability dodging).

Now, I don't know for sure, but I would think your average credentialing board might take exception to a practicing clinician, (as you claim to be) going on line in the proffered role of expert clinician and throwing around psychological jargon for self-promotion, as well as assigning recognized psychological diagnostic categories to another poster on a chat-room basis, either tentatively or definitively.

Just a thought.  In contrast, I have been clear that I am here as a mother and person who hopes to open her own school someday. I have always made clear that I am not here as any kind of clinical person. This is repeated in many of my posts, even when others have tried to draw me into certain discussion. Overall, I have scruplously avoided using psychological methods or diagnoses (and I never would, ethics aside: commonsense should tell you that it isn't reasonable to try to know someone at that kind of level on a chat site).

Being a psychologist does not take away your first amendment rights to hold forth in public, as in this kind of site, but it is necessary not to mix the professional/expert role with the private citizen role.

For the same reason, because I am here as a private individual, I am not going to discuss my training, supervision or consultations about this site: all I will say is that I am confident that I am neither being unethical (or borderline, etc.) in my participation or in any other way.

But perhaps you want to see about a little consultation yourself concerning your own performance here?

And by all means ignore me.  You will notice that I very seldom initiate contact here unless asked directly or attacked--I am content to observe, that is my main purpose at this point.

As to your other questions: "Anon" is quite different from a user name.  With a user name, you can then identify that all the posts coming from one individual, leading to some kind of coherent presentation. "Anons", on the other hand, seem to be kind of game-playing sometimes, pretending to be different people, saying things that they would never dare say if they had even a limited identifier (sound familiar?).  As to using one's own name, because some pretty scary people post here at times, limited exposure has a value-- a user name seems the best compromise.

And you say that I've deleted the post in which I told you that I had printed out one of your deleted onslaughts: no--- it is still there: in the "For Ottawa" thread on 8/2/04; 17:59:00.  You'll notice that there's no reference to a legal review in it--could that have been something you imagined, maybe a guilty conscience about your comments which you had the eventual good sense to get rid of?
[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-17 07:31 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 17, 2004, 11:28:00 AM

Quote

On 2004-09-17 07:30:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"I am content to observe, that is my main purpose at this point."

Ottawa5, Do you have any Idea just how full of shit you are?  If your whole purpose was to observe us, then why on earth did you start posting here in the first place?  I mean you have well over 100 posts here that take up enough pages to fill a small novel, and you're only observing us? My god woman, how stupid do you think we are?

Maybe you did come here originally to observe us. You observed and observed, and when you discovered that you didn't like what you were reading, you started posting and defending the Cedu program.  Whether i'm right about this or not, one thing I know for sure is that YOU ARE NOT just some casual observer.

An observer would not offer their opinions or make any attempt to participate in conversations.
An observer would never offer their opinions on the topics being discussed.  An observer would not go out of their way to convince abuse victims that the abuses they suffered were not the fault of the institution where they stayed, but rather the fault of poorly trained, uneducated individuals.  A casual observer would not threaten legal action against those who questioned their reasons and motives.  A casual observer would not bring their retarded family members on to this site as a means of providing a second voice for her opinions, which have disgusted and enraged every poster on this site.

Ottawa5 you are not an observer here, nor have you ever been.  Are you just so removed from reality that you can't see this?

And yes, I too read your post where you told the anons that you had printed their posts and were contemplating turning them over to your lawyers for review.  Maybe you didn't delete the entire post, maybe you just deleted the sentences where you threatened legal action.  Wow, that was really hard to figure out!

As for the Anon psychologist who said you write like a crazy person, well it's only natural that you deny this.  Come to think of it, I never met a Crazy person who didn't deny that fact, no matter how Looney Tunes they were.  So it really doesn't surprise me how vigorously you deny that you rant like a basket case, or how visiously you attacked and continue to attack the Anon who made those comments.

If your children are any indication of your sanity, then I would have to say that the anon is onto something.  You have a grown son who is completely afraid to stand up to you, and a teenage daughter who is more interested in being a very poor clone copy of you, rather than boys and having her own social life.  Something is seriously wrong here.

Ottawa 5, do yourself a favor and get some help already.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 17, 2004, 01:43:00 PM

About the Observer comments. All true. She does not pretend to address things that are contrary to her views no matter who the poster. She is just a reactionary. She hasn't responded to any of my postings though I've asked for the attention...I'm a glutton for punishment. She sounds just like my mommy.
Telling me how very out of control I was (to her) how very angry I was ( with her) and how I needed to spend time away (for her). and so where does that leave us? I wasn't Her...I was me. And I had to stop being me in order to function and get through the program. Two years after graduation my mother wants to know why I don't get past any of the issues. It was hard enough for her to see that there is something to get past. Thank god I'm articulate enough to keep my cool most of the time and am able to restrain myself from reacting to things more than the folks do. That came from RMA. But that ability to communicate honestly is practically Lost on them. Too bad. CEDU promised me that being honest would give my parents the desire to Love and forgive me the way I have  them. Or at the very least give me tools to deal if they can't/won't. Deeper than I wanted to go right now.

Maybe Ottowa can see what her son's point of view really is, when he has the space to become honest. There are so many issues for sure between the parents and children/students to the programs. A lot of stuff under there. I know from my recent conversations with the rents. Can we help that process? I thought (would love to be informed if I am incorrect) mudbones357 was the fabled CEDUized Son. He seemed to have experienced some terrible impressions while retaining some of the positive. Maybe it's time that instead of healing has gestated more hurt, confusion, and anger.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 02:48:00 PM

But other times you are sort of funny, so I guess it all evens out.

What I said is that I am AT THIS POINT mostly interested in observing.  Originally I participated more to get my questions out, because there were some positive-story posters with whom I was able to network before they left in disgust, and also because I thought that the site was a little more open to reasoned discourse than it really is.

And, I must say, it is boring to debate with certain people whose vocabulary is predominantly 4 letter words, outrage, and vulgarities.

Also, I now think that perhaps this site is more of a "shell" discussion place. A friend who is a lawyer commented that this may the case, and his explanation made sense. Based on what he told me about how class-action lawsuits are drummed up, I wonder if Fornits is being used by some to try to elicit outrageous stories, in the hopes that a law suit can be engineeered from the materials and contacts gathered.

I do think that many of the posters who are being used in this way are sincere in telling their stories.  These sincere stories are really the aspect that interests me, but in the background, I have to say it, there is a definite flavor among certain participants of dreams of hopping onto some kind of legal gravy train, if only enough people will tell the same stories so that abuse can be said to be universal in these schools. These "dreamers" may, by the way, include disgruntled ex-employees who were canned by CEDU for some ineptitude or other, now perhaps underemployed due to their own limitations, and looking for someone to blame.

Now, I've already given my opinion that some big lawsuit is just not going to happen, it's not in the cards, the "zeitgeist" of the times is against frivolous suits and the trend is toward parents controlling their kids; obviously others may think it's in the cards and disagree.

And speaking of stupid, why bother to insult me when, if you would just ignore me, the need to clear up foolish blurting would be minimized, and you would likely hear from me much less? Isn't that your hope?
 
Finally, if you happen to check the post that you claim I edited, you will find no indication of editing at the end of it. That's because I didn't.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 17, 2004, 03:17:00 PM

Now, you're wayyyy off the paranoid deep end Ottawa.  Shell site?  Come on!  CEDU has already lost 2 lawsuits.  Or are we making that up?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 03:31:00 PM

But I take exception to the statement that I've never responded to your postings.

I responded to a detailed post from you, with a great long post that I sent on 9/8/04, 20:23:00, entitled "Well, that's quite a bit to respond to..." on the thread "For the Guys on Moose Talk". I checked it and it is definitely there so perhaps you were away from your computer on the day that I posted it.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 03:59:00 PM

But for all I know, you may be right. It's hard to predict the future but, all in all, I am betting against any big litigious effort that closes down the emotional growth school phenomenon. As I said, I think there is a growing trend toward reining-in acting-out teens as well as a growing resentment of lawyers' "ambulance chasing" for profit.

In terms of the two suits you talk about: I don't know much about them, beyond what I've heard here.  Any company is going to be responsible for certain negligent acts, employee misdeeds and so on...that isn't what I'm referring to.  

I am saying that I don't think it's in the cards that some lawyer is going to be able to convince a judge and jury that requiring running-amok teens to chop wood, attend group and get yelled at, be in Propheets, and so on, is abuse. I think that the average juror is not going to think that this sounds so bad, considering what the kid may have been doing before being sent there.

And then there is the issue of all the pro-CEDU parents and kids that would testify on the other side--look, they are planning a big reunion for next summer, I just got the mailing awhile ago and you just cannot imagine how many satisfied graduates and families there are. These kids and families will say that the confrontation was worth it, and the ones I know, at least, had a pretty different experience in terms of what actually transpired in their programs, as compared to some of what I hear at this site.

I don't think I'm being very paranoid, my lawyer friend told me about analogous sites that, over the last few years, have been set up, or encouraged, by trial lawyers on issues of damage by certain pharmaceuticals, in order to build class-action suits, and, of course, to make a lot of money, mostly for the attorneys, but some for the plaintiffs, too.

But I have absolutely no proof that this is the case here, just my friend's suggestion that he smelled a rat in what goes on here, and my observation that his explanation made sense, based on some of the posts I've seen here.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2004, 04:05:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-09-17 11:48:00, ottawa5 wrote:




"I do think that many of the posters who are being used in this way are sincere in telling their stories".  



"Now, I've already given my opinion that some big lawsuit is just not going to happen, it's not in the cards, the "zeitgeist" of the times is against frivolous suits and the trend is toward parents controlling their kids; obviously others may think it's in the cards and disagree."

Ottawa5, this is a prime example of how full of shit you are.  

In one paragraph you've clearly stated that many of the posters here are SINCERE in telling their stories. By "sincere", I take it you mean that these people are telling the truth regarding the abuses that they suffered at Cedu. But in the next paragraph you've clearly stated that you consider a lawsuit against cedu for those very abuses to be FRIVOLOUS.   ::bwahaha2::

Sure O5, we really believe you. :nworthy: "Hail Queen Ottawa! Misttress of Moose Cock! Hail!"  :nworthy:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 17, 2004, 04:08:00 PM

That Last post Was ME.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2004, 04:29:00 PM

Really, if you're going to be as petty as your post sounds, for penance, you might at least stop hiding behind the Anon label and give yourself some kind of identifier (how about "Low Blow Coward" or "Can Dish It Out But Can't Take It" or something along thoses lines?).

Just a guess, but I'd bet complexities are hard for you, so I'll try to make my post a little simpler, in terms of your puzzlement.  

If a child has been, to use a nice, clear extreme example, raped by a counsellor, most everyone would agree that this is abusive and a crime.  The courts have a role here, crimianlly and civilly (ie in term sof money damages).

If a child is not allowed to wear, say tee shits with skulls on them or can't leave without parental permission, due to school procedures, just about everyone sane (that may or may not include you) would agree that this is not abuse.

So what about things in between, such as verbal barrages in raps:  they may be really unpleasant, they may be non-productive in a therapeutic sense at least in some cases, but are they abuse in a legal sense? My own view is that the verbal barrage would have to be very, very extreme before most people would consider this abuse.  

That doesn't mean that the kids who talk about it being really painful didn't sincerely find it to be so. Their experiences may tell us a lot about how programs can be optimized.  It may well be that another kind of program would have been better matched to their needs, but these are difficult, probably impossible things to prove, and a court of law still does require proof in order to prevail there. Just because the experience was painful, I am betting that a court would not equate it with abuse.

But, to me, and I think to most people who would hear such a case as jurors, the situations that reach the level of abuse are going to be very rare, especially when the activities that got the kid into the school in the first place are considered).

Here, you hear a lot of hyperbole at this site, CEDU is a concentration camp and so on.  The rest of the world doesn't buy it, from what I see.

So, after you get yourself some guts, and maybe even a user name (you can use one of the ones I offered, if you like) you might take a walk away from the computer and clear the "groupthink" out from between your ears.  Maybe then, you will realize that no everyone in the world is as caught up as you are in the idea that controlling kids who are hurting themselves and others is a matter for the courts to be concerned with.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 04:35:00 PM

But thinking that you were a random, gutless poster, I have already responded to your emotocon-decorated piece just previously.

I can't blame you for posting Anon by accident, I've done it myself--I just expected something a little more insightful, or at least more humorous, in the body of your post.

I am off now, perhaps you can redeem yourself with something more original or at least some half-way amusing insults.

I look forward to it.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2004, 05:45:00 PM

and she refuses to call a spade a spade. Don't call it abuse, call it a few bad apples in a delicious apple pie. it''s not like being locked up, it's like a school where you didnt' get it obviously since you still need to post here. Since you are angry about it and get emotional thinking about it it shows that you need this site to throw shit at RMA.
I don't buy any of it. This woman is kuku for cocoapuffs. If 50 people go through or witnesses a traumatic experience each person reacts differently. That people who react less volotile(sp?and hostiley less traumitized?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 17, 2004, 06:31:00 PM

Ottawa5,

All insults and redemption talk aside, I would like to know exactly what it is you consider legal.  I fully agree with your statements that moderate yelling, punishing a child with physical work, and imposing a dress code are not illegal activities, and in fact are part of every day life at most normal boarding schools.  
Yes you are correct in taking that position, and no doubt did so after having lengthly discussions with your lawyer friends.  

Perhaps you and you legal team would be so kind as to inform me as to whether or not the following practices are legal......

Is it legal for a Cedu staff member to break a student's arm in the act of preventing them from walking out of a RAP?

Is it legal for Cedu staff to Isolate a child and completely deprive them of food for a period of 4 days?  (This was done to every cedu student who experienced the solo portion of "WILDERNES CHALLENGE.")

Is it legal for an educator at ANY School to hear students give sincere & detailed accounts of severe physical and/or sexual abuse that was inflicted on them by their parents or other family members, and not report what they've heard to the appropriate authorities (namely the state)?

Is it legal and/or ethical for ANY school to knowingly employ someone to educate children, who publicly and frequently admits to having had molested a 13 year old girl?  Steve Laird was my discovery family head, and he told us about how he had molested that poor girl all the time.

Is it legal and/or ethical for Any school to substitute a proper education (english, math, science, history) with chopping wood, group therapy, and farm work, and to award highschool credits for these activities?  When I was at cedu we had proper schooling only 2 mornings per week.  That's 1 day per week to learn all of the required academics in order to graduate highschool. No state school board would find that acceptable, yet cedu was handing out diplomas every year.

Is it Legal and/or ethical for Any school to forbid and prevent their students from reading books? I mean absolutely no books period!  Being banned from reading was quite common at Cedu-RS when I was there, I myself was BANNED from reading for a period of 3 months!

Is it legal for Cedu school to discriminate against a student's culture and/or religion? When I was at Cedu-RS only Judaism could be practiced openly. Students were not allowed to attend church, or keep any religious symbols that were not Jewish (such as crosses or bibles) in their rooms.  I was made to stand patiently and listen to chanuka and rashashanah songs, yet I was not allowed to observe my own Christmas
(Orthodox Christmas is on January 7th), or to even call my family on that day.  As I understand the law, It is ILLEGAL for Any School to prevent a child from attending Church on Sunday!

Is it legal for staff members at Any school to hurl racial slurs at their students, like cedu staff often do in raps?  There was a girl in my peer group named Kasey, she was black.  Whenever
staff wanted her to cry in raps they would call her a "Nigger", often times repeatedly.

Is it legal for any school to forbid a child from, and to punish them for speaking to their parents in their native language?  My parents and I came here from Montenegro, english is NOT our first language.  Yet, Cedu forbade me from speaking Serbian to them when we talked on the phone, or when they visited me on campus.

Is it legal for a Cedu School to recieve state funding (as they often do with kids who are sent there by the state) and use those funds to teach religion?  The Cedu program has all of the traditional components of religion, including it's own bible ("The Profit" by Kalil Gibraun), preachers (anyone here remeber cedu staff and "House Around the Pit"), commandments and sins (being in and out of agreement), and rights of passage (profeets and work shops).  Just because the state has not yet determined that Cedu's program is in essence a religion, does not mean that they won't in the future.  And there does exist a very strong case for doing so.

Is it Legal for Any Any School to deprive a child of sleep for periods that exceed 30 hours, as Cedu does in their profeets and work shops?  I know for a fact that even prisons are required by law to allow inmates a certain number of hours to sleep for every 24 hour period.

I am personally aware of all the above abuses that I described here. I witnessed almost all of them.  Ottawa5, please print this post and show it to your lawyer friends.  Let's see if they still think that Cedu doesn't break the law.

Oh, and how is this for redemption? By the way, there is plenty more where this came from, but I figure that I've already given you enough to chew on.



.


 [ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-17 15:47 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 17, 2004, 08:03:00 PM

Stumbled onto another 'isolated incident' of abuse while going through my files. I think this is one from 'we've been there'. Much of what programs do is illegal or ethical, and they will continue to do so until they are forced to stop. They are 'defiant...out of control' and need to be restrained.
~~

My mother decided it was in my best interest to send me away to an "emotion growth school" during my eighth grade summer. Of course I wasn?t the perfect child....I wasn't doing well in school and my mom said that I wasn?t living up to her standards or associating myself with my "caliber of people". Let me explain...I come from a family who has always had a good deal of money so therefore my mother always expected me to be her perfect little country club, tennis playing princess that she wanted me to be. I always felt like she didn?t except me for who I was and never would meet her standards. She ended up touring CEDU high school in running springs without me even knowing (I myself am from Tennessee) obviously she fell in love at first sight. Although CEDU has a nice campus and the upper status girls gave her a tour ( the upper status kids are almost done w the 2 1/2 yr program so they will not dare say a harsh or negative word about the program bc they do not want to get put on a restriction or get kept from going home.) she wasn?t sold the truth .I'm not sure when my mom decided on CEDU, though I do remember clearly the day the escorts came to take me away from everything that I cared about. They simply showed up after breakfast and my mom said "you are going to go with them now". I was confused. I thought my mom no longer wanted me and was sending me to live with a foster family. Then it was explained to me that I would be attending a boarding school in California. The escorts informed me that if I didn?t cooperate that restraints would be necessary. I told my mother and brother goodbye and I remember having the worst pain in my chest as if someone had knocked the breath out of me. I decided I would be strong and cooperate and try to do well at my new school on the way there....little did I know what was waiting on me.

I arrived at CEDU around 10 pm then I was led into the admissions department and talked to by several staff members. After that they led my into a small bathroom where I was strip searched by one staff member and two students..I was extremely humiliated and intimidated, I didn?t even know these people. That night I was informed by the other girls that I wouldn?t be able to go home on Christmas and all about how the program really was. I cried myself to sleep that night.

As the days progressed I became more and more homesick and depressed..I felt unwanted and sold away to some greedy school who had no interest in me other than the money that came along with me.

I attended my first "rap" a couple of days after admission..A rap is supposed to be some sort of therapy session..though I found them more damaging than helpful. We all would have to go sit in a room in a huge circle for hours...the staff would make us scream at the floor and they would shout insults at us like "slut, whore, bitch, etc." they would even tell us that our parents didn?t want us anymore and that?s why we were w them now.

 I was in total hell. Many of the staff were ex drug addicts, sex addicts, and spouse abusers. While at boulder creek (another CEDU school) a staff confessed in a profeet (a profeet is when they wake u at 2 in the morning and take you to a cabin in the woods and make you listen to the same songs over and over again for 13 hrs straight and you have to act out whatever theme the profeet is(like if it was the children?s profeet they make you pretend you are a child) it was always very strange) well the staff confessed that she had genital herpes, had been w over 100 men and drove off the road one time while masturbating...These were the people we were supposed to listen to and take care of us...Another staff told us in a rap that he had problems beating his wife and kids and used to do heroin. So the CEDU system hires some family beater to take care of a bunch of kids...doesn?t make sense to me.

I ended up at boulder creek because I ran away from CEDU..I ran down the backside of a huge mountain with another girl. We went days with no food or water...I had gotten to the point where I didn?t care if I lived or died (I had never been suicidal in my life before CEDU). The girl I was with got bitten by a snake the 2nd day on the mountain and was stuck in a huge thorn bush(her hair was completely matted in the thorns). I wanted to give up I thought I would never be free again and I could no longer see San Bernadino (our goal) all I saw was a vast space of green. I was so weak from being dehydrated I crawled into a ditch and began to pray..I prayed for god to help me and to give me strength and forgive me of my sins in case I died on that mountain. I even carved into my arm with a stick "I love you mom" because it had been so long since I told her and I didn?t want to die and her not know. All of a sudden I became determined to make it and get the girl I was with help. I told her I would get help and that I was going to go. I hiked all night long and into the next morning and eventually I made it to a little winding backroad. I was later picked up by a family in a pick up truck and taken to a payphone..I called my mom first who was supposively staying in California for a parent seminar but I couldn?t find the correct resort that she was staying at. Then I decided I couldn?t leave that girl on the mountain so I swallowed my freedom and called the police. Search and rescue found her 2 days later with a helicopter and she was ok. I was then sent to the CEDU Idaho schools..

I attended boulder creek academy, ascent, and also stayed at Inland behavioral for a while. Its not that I was that bad of a kid, I just knew what was going on in the programs was not right, abusive, and damaging..I would not be a part of that. Cedu almost seemed like a cult..the screaming, profeets, and extremely twisted beliefs. Their theory was that you had to be brought to rock bottom before you would change, so they tried to make you feel as much pain as possible. I remember one girl had to cut her long beautiful hair because staff said she used it to manipulate it with.

All girls unless they were high in the program had to wear their hair tightly up bc CEDU says that girls use hair to flirt, manipulate, and hide behind...

Baby powder was even a privilege b/c girls would use it to powder their noses. We had very little to do with the outside world. We were not allowed to have any relation ships w the opposite sex ( such as dating) which I understand that it could interfere w "therapy" but they would actually tell us we were dirty if we had a crush on someone...We would have to confess in a rap to the person we liked and apologize for lusting over them. It was a really sick program that played alot of head games with you.

One guy even got so desperate and had so many problems he had sex with jazzy the pig on the farm we had to work on..sick,sick,sick. My friend lee had his arm broken in an unnecessary restraint by staff while at ascent.

Also CEDU has had several lawsuits against them an RMA escort was even convicted of raping a girl. I continued to disagree with the program, speak my mind, and get away so I was then sent to inland behavioral (also affiliated with CEDU) where I was locked in a white room the size of a closet for 4 months (Christmas and my 15 bday) I didn?t receive a thing from my family on Christmas or my bday...though later I learned that it was withheld from me and the strawberry cake the staff were eating my mom had it specially sent to me..(though I never knew this till I was out). I felt so forgotten and wasn?t permitted anyone or anything in my room except a bible. 4 months of that! I thought I was going insane..my nerves were so shook I would constantly break out in uncontrollable shakes . I had cried so much over the last 9 months I had forgotten how to cry..I was so used to being sad that if something happy happened I would cry. The program really messed w my head. I was never like that before. I would have terrible anxiety attacks. I even prayed to god at night to just take me and let me die..anything was better that being locked away for who knows how long..I couldn?t see the light at the end of the tunnel. I was never a suicidal person before being sent away, I loved life.

I rarely got to communicate w my family..I wasn?t permitted to talk to my dad for a yr bc he had no custody of me also I didn?t get to talk to my little brother for the same amount of time bc CEDU didn?t feel that I had earned that privilege. If we said anything bad about the program in letters home the staff would return it to us and write "manipulative on it" and it wouldn?t be sent.

 Once I got out I later discovered my mom got very few letters that I sent to her and I hardly got any of hers. The staff chose what they wanted to send and give to us. My mom even sent me a scrapbook she made for me and they used it as a bribe...they would only let me look at it every now and then if they felt I deserved it. I probably got to look at it 5 times.

Well eventually I was removed from CEDU and sent to PCS for 4 months and I finally came home. I can?t tell you the damage these programs caused. I suffered from post traumatic stress disorder. I had a fear that I was going to go to sleep one night and wake up back at the programs, I thought it was possible that I could be zapped back, I wouldn?t let myself enjoy life bc I had in my head that I would just get to attached to being at home and I would find myself there again, I had awful nightmares, I feared anything that could take me away from my family even death... I got in my head that I was going to die and be taken away from everyone again. I am 18 yrs old now and it has been yrs since I was 1st sent away and I still haven?t completely got over the damage that was inflicted upon me. I feel I would have been 100% better off if I was never sent away, and I feel that it only made things worse for me. Parents please think before sending your kid away..put yourself in their shoes. They may be at a hard time in their lives right now..but really they need your love more than ever...the last thing they need is more pain, problems, and even abuse (which is very likely to happen if sent away to a program like I attended). I hope this has been of some help to someone.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 17, 2004, 09:06:00 PM

There she goes again. Minimizing the abuse and program methods.

A rape has to be reported, rather than say, covered up, before legal action can be taken.

I have never heard anyone allege that a dress code and being retained is illegal, except to the extent that the child's rights were violated and the program ignored the ICPC. You pick such piddldy ass examples.

O5, you've read a number of accounts on raps. How do you define very, very extreme? And I'd like a clear answer, not a vague dance around. Do you consider it to EVER be therapeutic to scream derrogatory names at a kid? Assume for just a moment, if you can, that these accounts are factual, please describe the therapeutic benefit of this. I genuinely want to hear what is therapeutic about screaming whore, slut, bitch at a teen girl.

And I would certainly think that abuse disguised as 'therapy' would be illegal. The only challenge would be proving what one experienced. All the clever programs have been designed to make this very difficult... as you as eloquently state;

"but these are difficult, probably impossible things to prove, and a court of law still does require proof in order to prevail there. Just because the experience was painful, I am betting that a court would not equate it with abuse."

Raps, Painful? Understatement.

Your a psych major. You want to be an owner of a program. Please tell us how you will run the raps and what benefit you feel it has for the teens. Will they be screamed at, required to scream at the floor, forced to conjure up emotion? And how will they benefit from this? Enquiring minds want to know.

And this"
"But, to me, and I think to most people who would hear such a case as jurors, the situations that reach the level of abuse are going to be very rare, especially when the activities that got the kid into the school in the first place are considered)."

This is a rather sickening opinion. Given the abuse detailed by survivors, this is like condoning the abuse because the kid 'deserved' it.
The 'rest of the world' does not know about this heinous industry. With any luck at all, that will change- when enough people are aware of what actually goes one, and enough pressure is put on licensing and politicians to clean up the industry or close the places down. I do agree with you on one account. Public officials and program parents don't view the methods of programs as abusive, but then they really aren't there everyday, and completely discount reports of abuse, for precisely the reason you eluded to.

"Groupthink", here? So clever. Turn suvivors claims of being brainwashed against them. Coop and bastardize, like any clever politician. Reverse psychology isn't going to work O5. We will chalk it up to yet another of your attempts to discredit and minimize. Most judges aren't interested in interfering with a parent's rights. The good ones are interested in child abuse, physical or psychological.

That is what we are discussing. Not dress code.

Now, are you in the mood to defend the methods?

How are they useful or therapeutic? And not your interpretation of what happens in a rap, but what has been reported here. If you don't believe what has been reported, then why are you still here? What is your motive. You have obviously gather ample information for your thesis, why do you continue in these circular arguments with people you do not respect?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 17, 2004, 10:32:00 PM

I thought you were going to ingnore my posts?
:wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 17, 2004, 11:07:00 PM

Is there any way we can ignore the Ottawas?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 17, 2004, 11:30:00 PM

Look, if you want to ignore someone, the way to do it is to just not respond.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Even an Anon ought to be able to comprehend the concept.

As I indicated to someone earlier today, I really am at a stage in my involvement with this site that I would be prepared to just observe, but people keep addressing me, or attacking me outrageously, in a way that invites, perhaps demands, a response.

I mean, don't you see something humorous in somebody posting the query, "Is there any way we can ignore the Ottawas?"

BTW, to SOS, I will respond to your reasonable questions about what procedures reach the level of abuse, in my opinion, at least, but it is a large and important subject and will have to be addressed later in the week.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 18, 2004, 12:02:00 AM

Ignore, ignore, ignore, folks. Please ignore!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 18, 2004, 02:15:00 AM

Quote

On 2004-09-17 21:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ignore, ignore, ignore, folks. Please ignore!"

this is quite similar to peeking through your fingers as you cover your eyes.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 18, 2004, 02:19:00 AM

O5,
Your presence here is like pouring salt on a wound. You incite 'attacks'. One has to wonder if you get some pleasure out of it, and if that's what keeps you coming back.

Your post was amusing. Written with an air of superiority, yet you're right in there slinging mud. In your 'proper' way, of course.

Entertain this. You're offended by and criticize the language some use, yet your refined words in support of the program are offensive to survivors. Everytime you post I'm sure many feel just as compelled to respond to your 'attacks'.

Rational? Doesn't matter. That's the way it goes with opposing forces.

When will your thesis be complete? Since you have drawn your conclusions, what more information could you possibly need?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 18, 2004, 04:54:00 AM

Laura's right, of course. The peeking. But, I hate to respond to O5. She's a supercilious bitch. Let's try to ignore her. She CLEARLY is taunting us and probably lying about her schooling. She never answers any real questions - like have you printed all your posts and shown them to your faculty. She has no idea about real ethics and how diagnostic terms are used in the real world. She is lying - she is not in school and I'd bet my house she has borderline personality disorder. Folks, we only feed her histrionics - OH, MY GOD, I SAID IT AGAIN!!!! I do not believe she is telling the truth about her schooling, or she would know the difference between diagnosing a person and talking about similarities. Can we just not respond to her? I mean, really not respond to her? She is only going to argue with us and try to look superior. Some here become upset and take up her bait. Believe me, she is trying to bait us! Ignore, ignore, ignore. Ignore. Interesting word here... think of it as ignoring the ignorant! Also, she had made a threat to all of us, not just that ex-staffer. Remember? She said something about lawyers. I think she may have edited that post, because the one she offers in this thread is not the one I remember - and I think SOS, who mentioned it. She has mentioned more than once printing out and chortling over how clever she is to do so. Oooohhhhh - O5 is SO POWERFUL! She is an unbalanced person with no boundaries. Oh, no! I did it again! Bad, bad me! My, oh my - pointing out the obvious!

See, the problem here is that we become more angry the more we interact with her. I certainly have. Ans she has, too. I remember reading in history something about the Nazis marching in Skokie, Illinois. A lot of Holocaust survivors lived there. The ACLU defended the Nazis' right to march there. It was Nazis or KKK... I don't remember. They were all Americans and it was in the '70s or '80s I think. Anyway, it almost feels like that here. You certainly can't compare the Holocaust to CEDU - not at all. That was mass murder. Still, the idea of someone stomping around intentionally hurting people who have already been hurt, and then feeling oh-so-triumphant every time you get a dig in and hurt those people. That's how she feels to me. She's a wretched bitch and doesn't give a damn about you. She only wants to argue with you and feel superior.  

How are some of you doing post-CEDU? Any recurrent nightmares or stuff like that? Do you ever hear the music from the propheets - if so, what does that do to you?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 18, 2004, 09:05:00 AM

Concerning this Anon---

I think, by writing style at least, this is the Anon who makes claims of being a clinician.

Still hard to believe since the antics and accusations in this and other posts would likely risk losing licensure---but perhaps this character is unlicensed to start with.

Unemployed too, I bet, if this is the typical presentation or level of thinking. Maybe very in need of a monetary judgment against a CEDU school.

I won't talk personality disorders diagnoses on a web site---it would be pointless as well as unethical. But just on a human basis, this person doesn't strike me as terribly insightful or at all professional--it is more like someone using buzz-words to try to sound professional.


For example, on an observational level, I notice that there is this repetition of the exact same words, the exact same phrases from one of post to another.  There are alternating attempts within a post to appear oh-so-sensitive, followed by some really spiteful comment or outlandish accusation, often using (or misusing) psychological terms. There is this power dynamic: the tone of "rallying the troops", of trying to get everyone to agree to ignore me (on the basis of Anon's "professional" advice) as well as this sense that I personally have some obligation to provide this information or that, as if it is somehow this clown's business to have it.

Well I like a mystery as much as the next person but there is really no way to say if this person is a real psychologist (albeit a pretty poor one), someone playing a game, or anything else with certainty.  The medium of an internet site just doesn't allow it.

And this is the problem with Anon postings, is this Anon really one person, or different people, affecting a similar style? Interesting, but not possible to know for sure, I'm afraid.

So, as I've said before, anyone who wants to ignore me, go ahead, it's really no hardship for me at this point.  But for heaven's sake, do so because you decided, on your own, that it was a good idea, not because of someone like the odd, possibly bogus Anon in the previous post told you that you had to.





[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-18 06:05 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-18 06:07 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 18, 2004, 11:51:00 AM

Always time to engage in analyzing another's opinion or writing style, never time to answer the questions posed in this and other threads. :roll:

Her agenda and strategy has shifted. Her future ramblings to 'attacks that demand a response' will include her imaginings that there is some kind of 'groupthink' happening at Fornits.  :lol:

My suggestion is that survivors stick to asking relevant and important questions of her, regarding the 'ethics' of the abuse passed off as therapy. Share your experiences and ask her to defend the usefulness of the methods.

What parents who read this forum need to know is that the abuse does not occur as isolated incidents, but is inherent in the ignorant, experimental methods employed by the program on a daily basis. Their methods wouldn't fly in the real world, hence her/their avoidance of direct questions regarding the appropriatness of such 'therapy'.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 18, 2004, 12:49:00 PM

Many of us have asked questions to Ottawa5 regarding how she would defend specific abuses that we have seen or experienced, she either ingnores them, states that she will answer said questions at a future time, or rationalizes it away with some huge explanations, that give people a headache to read, and never really answers the question, or dismisses it completely.  She's very good at what she does.  I think this is what frustrates people the most about Ottawa.

You know ANON you seem alright, I'm starting to like you.  I do wish however that you would gives us some kind of name, so I know what to call you.  Just right it up inside your post, it can be whatever; "One smart MF" if you want.

As for Ignoring the Ottawas, this to me would also be ideal, but I don't think that it's possible to do at this time.  They just Piss Off waaaay to many people, present company included!

To me, the Ottawas are prime examples of that same close minded, "how dare you question what we do?","Only we can save you from destroying yourself!" Abusive mentality from which Cedu School justified treating me like some sub-human criminal piece of shit for 1-1/2 years.  To Cedu I was the "scum of the earth," and they tried everything within and beyond their means to force me to believe that, BUT CEDU COULD NEVER BREAK ME!  

Bearing this in in mind, to me the Ottawas do serve a function here, they are the voices of my enemy.

I'm in a personal war with Cedu here, the number one rule in war is : KNOW YOUR ENEMY! the Ottawas present a perfect opportunity for doing that.  I equate engaging the Ottawas and rattling their cages to the feeling I had when I would do the same to Cedu staff and the rest of the sheep 12 years ago. I always did get a sick kind of pleasure out of it, I still do!

Anyways ANON please post again, I find your views on Ottawa5 to be very insightful and refreshing.





.

[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-18 09:49 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 18, 2004, 12:54:00 PM

WOW, Look I made it to the "100 Club", WHOOOOOOPIEE!!!!! ::rocker::

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 18, 2004, 01:41:00 PM

You know this is by far one of the most amusing things I have ever seen!
You insult my mother for not responding to some question people ask her, you you were self have not answered many question! So its ok for you to do that but not my mother? :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 18, 2004, 02:18:00 PM

i think you guys need to grow the fuck up.
if ottawa wasn't here, shit would be even more boring than these childish stab sessions; this would just be a gung-ho anti-cedu rally which lacked variation.
i'm the type who appreciates the presence of anti-protestors at protests.  shit is so dull when everyone agrees.  having a person with a dramatically different view amidst a heated conversation makes the conversation fascinating.  i don't know, maybe i'm the only one who gets bored with people who are constantly agreeing with me.

on the real tho, everybody has something to add in one way or another be it direct or indirect.  be wise and make the best from your resources... and hey, your theories are weak until you efficiently exercise them against resistance.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 18, 2004, 02:31:00 PM

SOS,
That was my post, didn't bother to log in.

Yes, I know some reasonable and important questions have been asked, not only of O5 but many other program parents and advoctes. When the rubber meets the road they avoid, deny, or minimize the 'treatment'. Standard MO.

I just happen to think the best stategy is to keep putting the ball in their court- recount your experience and ask them to explain how it is 'therapeutic'. Be factual as and specific as possible with your accounts.

While you're probably not going to change THEIR minds, it will serve to educate parents who may come here to get a different perspective on the industry. If they are savvy at all, they will notice the continued avoidance of specific questions, and inability to justify the methods. It speaks volumes.

I think this is one of the worst secrets in the idustry and needs to be exposed. Do the means justify the ends. Exactly what does the 'therapy/treatment' entail. In very specific detail.

Many parents are duped- give a manual outlining the procedures and methods but it is intentionally vague and general. It doesn't address many of the methods used well enough that a parent can determine if it is actually beneficial. The program does not go into detail about how the child will be punished.  That is deceptive and fraudulent. Kids should not be subjected to the many experimental processes employed by programs.

So, ignore the ramblings and keep bringing the discussion back to what is important. They are here, in the courtroom, so to speak. Put them on the stand and don't let them weasle out. Parents who happen by will be the ultimate judge/jury.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 18, 2004, 04:07:00 PM

02, your mother has refused to answer civil questions. I don't blame you for anything, because you are her child and still young. However, she has come one here and insulted many posters. If you think about it, these kids have been hurt and she is hurting them any more. Think about it. She has threatened to talk with attorneys about many of our posts - we all remember this - but I certainly can't find the post. I see one where she threatened one person. But there was a global threat.

Considering how many posts she puts out there, she is very, very involved here. Why is that? How does she have the time? Where does she find the energy? And I would be very concerned about her work as a clinician.

She has identified me as more than one person, I think. She puts effort into trying to link one anon post with another. I am one of those who said she looks borderline. She does. I don't care what she says about me. She does. Her behaviors - long, extensive posts with lots and lots of affect - emotion - putting all that time and effort - printing out posts to "catch" people. That's all borderline stuff. The one question asked of her regarding this - will you print out ALL of your posts and show them to your clinical supervisor - has been ignored. As far as I know, she has never answered this question. Frankly, if she does answer it, I expect she will lie. I mean, really... look at all of them. This is not the behavior of a normal middle-aged person. And certainly not of a clinician worth her salt.

Therefore, I've said I think she's lying about a number of things. And she certainly looks like a person with borderline personality disorder - but that is not to say that I'm diagnosing her here, as she has said has been done. She continues to say it's unethical of me and others to say this - she needs to go back to her ethics class. There is nothing unethical about saying something looks like something - even in posts.

It is interesting that she has tried to identify me, but she has been way, way off base all times. Why does she try? Why does she care? Why doesn't she give HER real name? She is very intelligent and I hope you inherited those genes. And I wonder, where is your brother? Why hasn't he posted? I expect that he would be mortified by your mother's posts. Why don't you have him log on and look at her extensive history of postings?  I'm telling you, it's not normal. She needs therapy - if her school is any good at all, they will require it, because the best ones do.

Quote

On 2004-09-18 10:41:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

"You know this is by far one of the most amusing things I have ever seen!

You insult my mother for not responding to some question people ask her, you you were self have not answered many question! So its ok for you to do that but not my mother? :wave: "

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 18, 2004, 04:12:00 PM

I asked if we could ignore O5. I would love to. She's a real bitch (oh, my - another 4 letter word!) but you guys make a point. It would be boring if we didn't have someone truly horrible to add flavor. Every protagonist requires an antagonist for interest! I do get sick of her long, rambling diatribes. Where does she find the time? Have you looked to see how many times she's posted? What the hell?!?!?!

So, maybe we are stuck with her. I like the point (did Deborah make it?) that she provides an opportunity for potential parents to see what brainwashing can occur and how she ignores the real pain and anger here.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 18, 2004, 05:33:00 PM

I no longer respond to Ottawa2 or Ottawa5, because it has become obvious that they are the same person.  Look at their post times.  It makes no sense.  Then, examine how she spells certain words differently each time, attempting to appear as a different person.  It doesn't jive with the claim of being a "dyslexic teenager."  It is so transparent.  Ottawa you are clearly insane, obsessed, and need serious medical help.  I can give you my mom's phone #.  She's the program director at a major board and care.

Clearly, CEDU school, is very scared about this site.  I have talked to quite a few parents, and I'm sure we've cost CEDU millions of dollars of potential earnings.  Now, they're sending in moles - first it was "maximus", then "ottawa", now its "just trying."  

What will they try next!  I'm proud to call you guys my friends.  We are making direct hits daily and they're scared.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 18, 2004, 06:43:00 PM

Bryan, I'm glad to see you write this. I never looked at their times. You are right. I had thought they were the same person; then I thought otherwise. Reading your post, I'm sure you are correct. It is the same person. Yep. I agree. And she is in such a froth all of the time, dancing around triumphantly when she thinks she's nailed us on something. I wouldn't call her insane, but I'd definitely say there is something wrong with her. She writes like she has borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. Just look at all those posts!
http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?term= ... mit=Search (http://fornits.com/wwf/search.php?term=&addterms=any&forum=all&search_username=ottawa5&sortby=p.post_time&searchboth=both&submit=Search)

Whatever is wrong, I will tell you that only someone with a personality disorder would put as much effort into this as she has - particularly in middle age. That's why people such as I keep saying that she looks like someone with a personality disorder. Of course, we do joke that you diagnose a borderline because you don't like the person very much. They are VERY hard to work with and extremely frustrating for therapists. I confess, I don't like O5 AT ALL. I'm really sick and tired of her disrespecting the feelings expressed here. That's how she makes herself such a big target for anger.

I think one thing that angers me the most about O5 - I mean me personally - is her claim to be in a Ph.D. program. I hope to GOD she's lying about this. It embarasses me profesionally to think this about her. I REALLY don't want to think that any school accepted her - and keeps her there. But, as I said, I do know that if she is in a decent school, she won't last there. She will have to prove she is emotionally stable and has good boundaries. If she prints out all of her posts here and shows them to the school, well, that will be that.

Clearly, she clearly is obsessed with this website, as you point out. They do have beds in board and care facilities for people with personality disorders and people with obsessive problems. As she looks like she has both, she could probably get government funding for it - even in Canada... if that's where she really is.

Quote

On 2004-09-18 14:33:00, Bryan Felsher wrote:

"I no longer respond to Ottawa2 or Ottawa5, because it has become obvious that they are the same person.  Look at their post times.  It makes no sense.  Then, examine how she spells certain words differently each time, attempting to appear as a different person.  It doesn't jive with the claim of being a "dyslexic teenager."  It is so transparent.  Ottawa you are clearly insane, obsessed, and need serious medical help.  I can give you my mom's phone #.  She's the program director at a major board and care.



Clearly, CEDU school, is very scared about this site.  I have talked to quite a few parents, and I'm sure we've cost CEDU millions of dollars of potential earnings.  Now, they're sending in moles - first it was "maximus", then "ottawa", now its "just trying."  



What will they try next!  I'm proud to call you guys my friends.  We are making direct hits daily and they're scared.  

"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 18, 2004, 07:05:00 PM

Who would have guessed that a person could miss so much by going away to the cottage for a day?

On this thread alone, we have Bryan, who is convinced that my daughter and I are one person, apparently symbiotically linked to CEDU in some  formal way.  He offers me the services of his mother--no thanks, Bryan, if she is indeed a psychologist, as you've said, I'm sure she has lots to do as it is.

Then there is Mikehunt (which I must confess, I continue to see as a puerilely unfortunate name) who, surprisingly enough, seems to find some comic relief, or perhaps, some dialectical/clash-of ideas value in my posts.

There is SOS who has reached 100 posts, and is happy about it, it seems: congratulations are in order---some of them were really pretty good, I have to say, regardless of your basic orientation on CEDU.

And there is Deborah, who posts enormously long diatribes/treatises all the time, and never gets critiqued the way I do for droning on and on--- that, of course, is the value of posting where just about everyone is going to agree with what you have to say, regardless of how you say it.

And last, but certainly not least, we have a "new" poster, now using the screen name of Manchester. Have to say that he/she sounds hauntingly familiar, the "borderline" theme and so on. My first reaction is to be mildly irritated at this person, who impresses one as a real fruit-loop at first glance, but then, also, I find it intriguing that she/he is trying so hard to get a rise out of me.

I suppose I should make clear that, for me,  it is of no particular importance if this character thinks, on whatever basis, that I am "borderline" or anything else, although it is kind of unfortunate when people try to use psychological terms to make a self-serving case, or to slam other people----that's really why it is unethical (if Manchester is a clinician, I don;t remember his/her current claims) to do that sort of thing on a chat-room basis.

We can anticipate that, perhaps, next, Manchester will decide that I am the second coming of the Easter Bunny, a reincarnation of Elvis, the Devil---really, the possibilities are endless when they are based on nothing concrete at all.

My only other comments on our "newest" contributer relates to this theme of the "time" I must spend at this site, the length of my posts, etc. I continue to be amazed at how much effort some others must put into this, because I really don't spend much time here at all---I just read what it is written and respond--I suppose some people, perhaps like poor old Manchester, must be approaching the whole thing in a much more laborious way!!

Well, as I've said before, feel free to ignore me, or, if you like, address me---and, if the subject is mutually interesting, perhaps the "dialectic" can indeed be worthwhile.

And, while all this has been undeniably interesting, I feel remiss because I do owe SOS, the birthday boy, a response from yesterday---if I get back early enough this evening, I will try to do my duty and respond to his reasonable query, instead of getting caught up in these new and extraordinary additions to the Fornits site.

[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-18 17:00 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 18, 2004, 07:20:00 PM

::bigmouth::  ::bigmouth::   ::noway::

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 18, 2004, 11:04:00 PM

Wow! I really can not belivie that there are people out there who can not tell that my mother and I are 2 diffrent people! (just through our writing you should be able to figuer that out!) I Would like to know however what you bryan know about dyslexia?
And where did you ever got this insain Idea? :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 18, 2004, 11:42:00 PM

O2ie,
My name is Deborah, not Debbi.

You and your mother frequently respond with disgust and take great offense to the 'language' used by some here. It's apparently a big hot button for you.

:question: Why, if you feel it is such an ignorant, immature and disgusting thing- to use 'four letter words'-
would you perceive it as therapuetic in the program?

:question: How is it helpful to scream obsenities at teens? Are you suggesting that its okey dokey there, but not in the real world?

That's incongruent- a double standard.

Do not deny this happens. You and O5 have not gone through the program, so have no first hand experience. It's really unfortunate that your brother and others didn't have the same freedom as your mom, to respond to rudeness with rudeness. No, they had to take it, and deal with the fall out later.

Just answer the questions. Or you can have mommy do it. In case you missed the questions or have forgotten them, I marked them with big yellow question marks.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 19, 2004, 02:46:00 AM

Well, Mel is dead, so I'm really surprised that he can do any good.

Many people are put on antidepressants by their physicians and all they need to do is see themselves differently. They can do this on their own.

Please note that when you say "dose" you are talking about giving medication. You mean "does." Look it up.

I am one of those who suspects that you are the same person.

Also, your mother DOES spend A LOT of time here. Look at her lengthy, lengthy posts and her claims to print out stuff, etc. This is a big project for her. She needs to get a life.

I did make some anon posts. Never denied it. I decided to register, as your mother - if you are two people - was complaining about anon posts. Now are you complaining about me registering? However, there were some posts that I did not write that she apparently thinks I did. She puts a lot of energy into trying to figure out who is whom.  

I am saying your mother is insulting and hurting people by not respecting their experiences and feelings. She is superior, supercilious (you'll see that I wrote this in an anon post), and smug. Many persons have pointed this out here. People here have been hurt, and she is blowing them off, defending CEDU, and, yes, she threatened to go to attorneys, appartently prompting one or two persons (three?) to delete posts. I did see that she threatened a couple of times.

I have no beef with you. You are a kid. Even if you are an adolescent, you are a kid. You are in the "you and me against the world" - or the posters - attitude with your mother. You could be in a lot worse head-set than that. So, go for it. Pair up with mom and see everyone else as the enemy.

However, I'm concerned for your future mental health. You have no way of knowing that your mother's behavior here is unbalanced. I hope you figure it out before you have your own family. I sincerely wish you well. Truly. I wish your mother would leave these kids here alone and quit minimizing their pain, but I see you as completely innocent.

So you will know, CEDU is based on Synanon - widely known to be abusive and create Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. There is no debate in the legitimate scientific community about this. I am very glad that your brother did so well (but I wonder why he has never posted here). I mean, if he's doing to great and so happy with CEDU, why doesn't he spend two minutes letting us know? Unless he did and I missed it - entirely possible. I still offer that you have him log on and look at all your mother's posts - easy to find - and ask what he thinks. I wonder if he would think it's weird.

I personally know of four clinicians who post here. There probably are more. All are ex-CEDU - either therapists or counseling staff who went to school. We all feel that your mother is entirely lacking boundaries. It is a concern. I will say what has already been said here - she should print out ALL of her posts and present them to her school. Trust me - there would be some grave concern.

Again, I do wish you well and a happy healthy life.

Quote

On 2004-09-18 20:04:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

"Wow! I really can not belivie that there are people out there who can not tell that my mother and I are 2 diffrent people! (just through our writing you should be able to figuer that out!) I Would like to know however what you bryan know about dyslexia?

And where did you ever got this insain Idea? :wave: "

[ This Message was edited by: manchester on 2004-09-18 23:52 ][ This Message was edited by: manchester on 2004-09-18 23:58 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2004, 10:33:00 AM

"Many people are put on antidepressants by their physicians and all they need to do is see themselves differently. They can do this on their own."

This was one big problem I saw with Cedu. Persons suffering from say bipolar disorder were not diagnosed or put on meds but instead were told that they needed to "deal with their feelings". This is ludicrous in anyone's book and shows how Cedu and Wasserman were really charlatans without a clue.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 19, 2004, 01:28:00 PM

Deb:You wanna talk about double standard? Lets talk about you increadably Long, extremly wordy posts. Then lets compar those to my mothers.

People have a problem with my mothers being "long"  but no problem with yours being outragesly long.

Now, I will let my mother handly those question since I think she words things better then I do and you have made it quite clear that no matter what I say you wont take me seirously.

Manchester: you really bright you know that??? The workshope I am refering to happened when Mel was ALIVE. Wow!

Now, I have a question for you: You claim to be able to diagnose my mother through her writing but you can not tell that we are 2 diffrent people? Please explain!

And, no my mother dose not spend a lot of time here (as we have stated before maybe you guys are just slow typers. She hardly ever spend more then 5-7 minuets [if even that] here. The only post I think she spent a lot of time on was to shanlea)Please note that I said this in my last post. Please read the entire thing before you responed to me. It will save us all a lot of time.

No, we are not complaining about you finallying haveing a user name. But you did sound like you were deining being a anon. This is what we were up set about.

As for her not "respecting people" I suggest that you go back and read a post my mother sent to Shanlea entitles "Your holyer then thou bit is getting old" or something like that. That should clear a few things up for you.

Please! Show me where she threated to go to an attorny. The only thing I can think you are refering to is when someone threated her and  she said she could find out her rights if need be.

I find it odd that you put so much energy into trying to find something that is wrong with my mother and I when I belive you should be more consered with people like OD (you think my mother is "rude" "sumg" and all that? go back to a thread entitled "Ottawa sucks moose cock"

We have already addresed why my brother dose not come here several times. He has absolutly no interest in this site. My mother did tell him about it and asked him if he would like to post something and he said no, that he had to much going on right not to get sucked in to a debat at a radmon, hardly known web site.

Again refer to ODs thread that I listed above if you wanna talk about boundries. BTW what "boundries" are you refering to? My mother has never denied anyones experiences. She has not ask them personal or hurt fully question. So please tell me what you are refering to?
 :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 19, 2004, 01:39:00 PM

ottawa, i don't even read your posts to find them funny... this message board has gotten so fucking dull.  clearly, every post you make is an attempt to stir things up...
hence, you had to talk shit about my moniker while you posted your response to my post.. sorry you think my name is childish, but at the same time, not really...  i can only imagine what it must feel like to be an immature adult trying to make it in mainstream culture, like yourself (clearly, you have not grown up in many ways yet.)
how do you feel about the werd "cunt"?
that'd be an interesting discussion.  white women and the werd cunt go so beautifully together.
_________________
laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-19 10:43 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 19, 2004, 09:32:00 PM

Ottawa2/5, make sure you have any idea of what dialectics means before you refer to them, you fucking idiot.  

Yes, you and Ottawa 2 are the same person. You fucked up, and we caught you.  Look at the times you post under either name.  Look at the spellings of the words.  

Under the name Ottawa2, you get all excited and forget to spell like a dyslexic.  
You simply leave off the last letter sometimes.  Then, you forget and spell difficult words correctly.  

You also almost never misplace the letters "i" nor "e".  

Dyslexics typically spell words correctly, but misplaced.  In other words, dyslexics tend to have the correct amount of letters in a word, but missplaced.  

You stupid bitch.  Do some research before you try to con a con.  Go back to your desk job where you belong.  You are not a mother, and you have no daughter.  Its a joke.  You work for CEDU.

You've made it very interesting on this site, but now, you are very boring.  

It is so clear, now, why you appear to have a borderline personality disorder.  You do!  Ottawa5 and Ottawa2.  And you get all mixed up.  You are so fucking clever.  But I'm more clever then you by far.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2004, 10:45:00 PM

I feel left out, maybe I should jump on the bandwagon. Oh, I guess everything has been said.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 20, 2004, 02:44:00 AM

O2, I have no beef with you. You are a kid. I will not try to fight with you here.

I misread your post about Mel - I thought you had written in present tense. My mistake.

Your mother did make threats here, we all saw them. It was before your time. She said a couple of times that she was printing out posts and would show them to attorneys. She said this. We all saw them. You did not, as you were not here yet. I do not have time (nor the interest) in wading through her 100+ posts to find her threats. They were there, all the same. I made a brief look and didn't see them. I'm wondering if she deleted something. Nothing wrong with that - nothing at all. Everyone has the right to delete their posts. The thing is, she tells us she's printing ours out and feels triumphant when she thinks she's "caught" us in an inconsistency. Everyone makes mistakes. And she's wrong lots of times - she thinks people are who they are not. And why is she working so hard to track us?

It seems to us that if your brother was doing so great, you guys could talk him into posting here once. That is why we keep asking. I believe that if he saw all of your mother's posts - ALL of them, he would be mortified. Truly.

Also, your mother refuses to respond to the challenge that she print out ALL of her posts and show them to her school. She ignores this. So, I don't believe she is in school at all, and if she is, I know they would be concerned. I know it. You are a kid and I would never attack you. I just wouldn't. I have kids, too. I am concerned about your perception of reasonable adult behavior. You are not seeing it at home.

Lastly, none of this means that I believe you actually are a separate individual from your mother. I'm thinking Bryan may be right - that you are the same person. And please learn to spell "does" correctly. It will help you in making a good impression. This is not an insult to you - I genuinely am meaning to be helpful.

Again, I truly wish you well. [ This Message was edited by: manchester on 2004-09-19 23:47 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 20, 2004, 04:33:00 AM

hahaha
bryan, you can personify the werd "cunt" very well... it's great.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 20, 2004, 11:10:00 AM

I don't care which one of your personas respond Ottawa.  Just answer me!

Oh and please add one more question to the list.

Is it legal for a female Cedu staff member to fondle male students?  Jill Bentz was notorious  at cedu-rs for sneaking up on unsuspecting male discovery students on work crews, and grabbing their asses.  I was pinched by Jill on numerous occasions.  Jill engaged in this behavior on an almost daily basis, I'm sure that Bryan remembers being pinched.  Jill never even tried to hide what she was doing.  Tim Brace (headmaster of cedu) and the rest of the senior staff were fully aware of this, and would often joke publicly about how all discovery boys had "welts on their asses" (because of Jill).  As I understand the law, there is a legal term for this sort of behavior: SEXUAL HARASSMENT!

(Ottawa 5) Do you and your lawyers still think that Cedu doesn't break any laws?


.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-20 12:05 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 20, 2004, 12:26:00 PM

why are there lawyers involved on ottawa's part??
i mean, if you love cedu so much, why do you need a lawyer?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 20, 2004, 12:38:00 PM

Yeah, she used to do more then just pinch my ass.  More like grab my ass, and constantly tell me "you're the best looking guy here!  You drive the girls nuts."  I'm serious - I think I probably could have fucked her.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 20, 2004, 01:26:00 PM

I think just about any guy at Cedu-RS could have Fucked Jill, but we were all repulsed by the idea of screwing someone older than our mothers! ::puke::

Seriously, She is One NASTY HORNY OLD BITCH!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 20, 2004, 02:19:00 PM

that's really perverted.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 20, 2004, 02:49:00 PM

SO IS JILL!!!!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 20, 2004, 02:54:00 PM

As a kid who wasn't allowed to have sex at CEDU, I would have pommed her in a second if I had the chance and quit lying- you would've too!!! :rofl:

In fact- hey Jill, Why don't you come up and see me sometime- that's not a gun in my pocket!  (remember the Brothers)

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 20, 2004, 04:55:00 PM

why didn't you bang it then?  
that would've been a classic story...

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: MorganG on September 20, 2004, 05:03:00 PM

Hi Shanlee I have finally decided to join fontis can you please tell who this Ottawa5 bith is

To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
-- Richard Henry Lee, 1787

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: MorganG on September 20, 2004, 05:10:00 PM

Any one who has decided to marry Rudy Bentz has to be stupid

Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 20, 2004, 10:00:00 PM

Bryan you really need to do some more research before you rant! Dyslexia come in differant forms and degrees. I myself have a mild case. And I have worked hard over the years to improve my spelling. Really I feel very sorry for you if you can not tell that my mother and I are two diffrent people.

SOS: My mother will get back to you when she has the time. Unlike some people on this site she dose not have all the time in the world to spend arguing with a random person on a unknown web site.

Manchester: I would really like to know where my mother said these things. But since you can not produce them...
Anyway you didn't answer my questions about "boundries". Please do.
Hey were you ever working at CEDU? Cuz I have a feeling that you are just bitter at them for some reason (hey no one likes being let go.*shrug*)
 :wave: [ This Message was edited by: Ottawa2 on 2004-09-20 19:01 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 20, 2004, 10:25:00 PM

Of course I would oppose sexual contact between students and staff at any school that caters to minor children.

And fondling a student is wrong--I do not include such normal interactions as touching, hugging within the concept of "fondling"---- really, do we have to de-construct normal, human relations???

I will also get back to you later on, with reference to your longer, detailed quiz on what I think is useful at CEDU, I am only here now because my little daughter brought your recent, rather strange, post to my attention.

But, all in all, you have to get over this preoccupation that my daughter and me are the same people, it was funny at first, but can't you, even in an internet format, see that this is a silly idea?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 20, 2004, 10:45:00 PM

O2 and O5, what have you done to make us think that you're two different people??  i can see how they think both of you are the same people.  you both act alike!  the only difference is that one of you can't spell.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 20, 2004, 10:47:00 PM

ottawa, "therapists" should ALWAYS be very careful about how they touch their "patients" and how it's being received... i saw all kinds of inappropriate touching at cedu.  and you know what?  even if the counselor's motive isn't to molest the child, if the child feels that it is, there's still a problem, isn't there?  hence, any authoritary figure should try to avoid such situations by using touch only when they deem it necessary and in the student's (AND ONLY THE STUDENT'S) best interest.. just because they staff member is in a good mood and feels like expressing it by being touchy-feely doesn't make unwanted touching an acceptable course of action... (especially for children with "touch" relative issues... which many had.  needless to say, their boundaries were crossed.)

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 20, 2004, 10:56:00 PM

Picksy, I am in the midst of leaving here, at the moment, but I must ask you to consider that the tendency to view O2 and O5 as the same person has more to do with a simplistic hope that there can only be one of us than it has to do with anything that we, one or both of us, has done objectively.[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-20 19:57 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 21, 2004, 12:59:00 AM

why are you talking about yourself in third person??

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 21, 2004, 01:05:00 AM

Morgan, its good to hear from you again.  You were among the few people who I liked at CEDU for the couple months we were there together.  Take care.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 21, 2004, 02:38:00 AM

O2, please spell "does" correctly. Your unwillingness to spell this one word correctly is very convincing - as to you being O5, as well. If you are masquerading as a "dyslexic" you may be motivated to continue making this spelling error.

I don't have time to wade through the thousands of words your mother wrote. I don't have time to read them, even. She spends a lot of time reading here, writing, and analyzing writing styles. Even if she reads and types very quickly, it is a phenomenal amount of time. You can read every word of all of her posts and find her threats. We all saw them and she knows she wrote them.

I didn't see a question about boundaries. Boundaries, put simply, refer to one's ability to separate oneself from others emotionally. She is so wrapped up in this website and in arguing and putting us down, that she is showing signs of having poor boundaries. I know she spends an awful lot of time here. She has to. No one can do as much work as she does here without spending lots of time. I have better things to do with my time.

I did work at CEDU and left because I could not be a part of the emotional abuse that they put the kids through. We were told in our training that the CEDU system was based on Synanon. Synanon is abusive and inappropriate. I am not personally bitter against CEDU. I'm angry over how they treated the kids.  There's a difference. I wouldn't return there for any amount of money.

I am glad that your brother did well there. I hope that all kids do from now on. That would be great.

I don't want to fight with you. You are a kid. I'm glad you're aligned with your mother. No one loves you like your parents.  

Quote

On 2004-09-20 19:00:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

"Bryan you really need to do some more research before you rant! Dyslexia come in differant forms and degrees. I myself have a mild case. And I have worked hard over the years to improve my spelling. Really I feel very sorry for you if you can not tell that my mother and I are two diffrent people.



SOS: My mother will get back to you when she has the time. Unlike some people on this site she dose not have all the time in the world to spend arguing with a random person on a unknown web site.



Manchester: I would really like to know where my mother said these things. But since you can not produce them...

Anyway you didn't answer my questions about "boundries". Please do.

Hey were you ever working at CEDU? Cuz I have a feeling that you are just bitter at them for some reason (hey no one likes being let go.*shrug*)

 :wave: [ This Message was edited by: Ottawa2 on 2004-09-20 19:01 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 21, 2004, 02:39:00 AM

Why are you ignoring my challenge that you print EVERY post you've put here and show them to your school? I believe you are not really in school. You have too much time. And I am CERTAIN that your school would be very concerned if they saw EVERY post you placed here. I would.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 21, 2004, 09:27:00 AM

Quote

On 2004-09-20 19:25:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"Of course I would oppose sexual contact between students and staff at any school that caters to minor children.



And fondling a student is wrong--I do not include such normal interactions as touching, hugging within the concept of "fondling"---- really, do we have to de-construct normal, human relations???
 



I will also get back to you later on, with reference to your longer, detailed quiz on what I think is useful at CEDU, I am only here now because my little daughter brought your recent, rather strange, post to my attention.



But, all in all, you have to get over this preoccupation that my daughter and me are the same people, it was funny at first, but can't you, even in an internet format, see that this is a silly idea?



"

Roses are Red
violets are blue
oh 5's schizophrenic...

and so is Ottowa2.


You can't con us. Fibs, dishonesty, refusing to admit to the truly FUCKED up effects of a program that tears kids minds apart and makes them doubt and hate themselves and others. We have to all try so hard not to offend you and your little daughter. ppppppppttttttttttt.
Ya...sure

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 21, 2004, 10:19:00 AM

Look, you sound like a clown to me, maybe you are a clinician--if so, I can see why CEDU booted you out--the lack of ethics is incredible.

And talk about boundaries--what makes you think that you have any right to demand anything at all of me??  I think I've made pretty clear that if you are really trained to do anything in the helping sciences, I have absolutely no confidence in your abilities or judgment (neither did the school apparently--that's why they canned you and you've been whining about it here, and I suppose elsewhere, ever since).

So seeing as I think this way about you, why would I take your advice or your whiney little "challenge" on anything??

And, as a practical matter, if I had decided to do anything that you suggested, I would certainly not report it here.  As you would know if you could read for content to any great degree, I am not here in any clinical role myself, thinking that to be ethically shady, and I will discuss neither my work or my education on these pages, any further than in the very general biographical terms by which I've introduced myself.

You, in short, are "full of prunes" as my grandmother used to say, I don't trust your ethics, your judgment, your opinion, you just seem very lame to me.

Contrary to your belief, I really don't spend much time here and I don't have an interest in debating the same repetitiouspoints over and over with you when I am. So run your silly little gambits on someone who takes you seriously, or more correctly someone who hasn't caught on to you yet. Or prepare to keep on being laughed at.  And ignored unless you can do better and be more original than your track record up to now suggests.



[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:19 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:26 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:27 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Pissed RMA Grad 90' on September 21, 2004, 10:42:00 AM

What do you want? Do you really think that you will help the world with your own school. I think the world will be a worse place if you take anything but what you have learned HERE on this site about kids.
CEDU education may have been fine if you weren't trapped. If you chose to hear the "honesty". BTW the version of honesty that the school employs IS abuse. Period.
Please please don't think we even need you here. I think you are smart, but evil. CEDU bad. People who think CEDU good- bad. Bye.

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 21, 2004, 03:31:00 PM

Ottawa, you are the very, very last person who should be talking to someone about their ethics at CEDU. The very organization you defend is rife with therapeutic corruption from it's foundation.

I wonder how long it will take for your own school to have a special slot here at Fornits?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 21, 2004, 04:21:00 PM

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 21, 2004, 04:46:00 PM

I like it! This is the second emotocon-only message that I've seen from you recently. Keep up the good work.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 21, 2004, 05:27:00 PM

I don't know.  Something about you Ottawa makes me just want to fucking pound your skull in over, and over, and over, and over, and over....Nah, I'd rather fist fuck ya.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Son Of Serbia on September 21, 2004, 05:31:00 PM

Now why would you go off and ruin a perfectly
good hand fist fucking O5?  Just remember not to eat with that hand later.  Oh, and have fun cleaning out the cob webs!!! ::bwahaha::




.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-21 14:31 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 21, 2004, 05:44:00 PM

Sorry, R, I wasn't thinking right.  Yeah, I was actually going to fist fuck her ass hole, but now that I think about it, I'd much rather ram my fist down her fucking throat and rip out her mangled and bruised tongue.

Nah, let's just bury her in a 55 gal. drum with concrete.  Watch, as an enlightening experiment, as  her facial expressions change while the concrete hardens, slowly restricting her breathing.

Let's enjoy the show as she slowly realizes the next breath is her last.

Fuck it, I'm going to do a little research and figure out where she lives...

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 21, 2004, 06:04:00 PM

That is, in response to the post you addressed to me 9/17/04, 15:31:00.  You had asked me to consider whether I thought that a number of scenarios that you described were illegal; in term of some of the scenarios you also asked if I thought that there was an issue of ethicality.

Now let me repeat that I am not a lawyer, so what I say is based on what I've read or on what lawyers have told me.  

Some of the things you describe appear to me, on the basis of what I understand, to be in violation of the law.  For example, I think that in all states now, counsellors would be required to report child abuse.  I don't know when the scenario that you described occurred, or whether there were other factors (such as that the abuse report had already been investigated and found to be without merit). But in general, I believe that there is an ethical and a legal responsibility to report if you are in charge of a minor child and there is reason to suspect abuse.

Similarly, of course it would be illegal to purposely break a child's arm when the child was leaving without permission.  However, it would not, I don't think be illegal to restrain the child and if the arm was broken as part of this restraint, then it would come down to a question of fact as to whether this was an accident or a excessive use of restraint.

Now your reference to the Wilderness Challenge or to staying up all night for Propheets is puzzling.  When my son was there, this wasn't a problem and there was certainly food and water provided during that time.  As I understand it, kids wanted to go on the Wilderness Challenge, and if they were not allowed to, it was because they were being punished.  Same with the Propheets, I've heard them described as the best part of the program.  

I never heard of anyone being forced to participate in either but I'll ask my son about it, maybe it was done differently when he was there as opposed to when you were there. But whether it would be illegal or not,  I can't see how much therapeutic good could come from making a child participate until he or she was at the point of looking forward to these kinds of rituals--it sounds to me like the anticipation is part of the positive change that can occur.

I wouldn't think that it would be illegal to require other activities such as wood-chopping as part of the program--as long as basic academic education tasks are included in the curriculuum, the school would, I should think, meet state requirements.  You've got to remember that a lot of in-your-seat learning time in the pulbic schools is busy work, for example, a woman I know who home-schools finds that her kids spend a fraction of the time in terms of school hours on school work and still easily pass all required testing.

And I don't know why you couldn't read books for a period of time, I would guess that they thought that you were retreating into them in order to avoid participating in the program.  

I imagine that you could ban a child from reading under the law and if there was a cogent therapeutic reason, I wouldn't think that it would be unethical. In a CEDU school, whether you like it or not, a lot of this is about modifying behaviors (Deborah will have a conniption about that but it's true) and so it isn't just about academics, it's about changing patterns that the child is using to avoid facing things that must be faced in terms of normal functioning.

Can a private school discriminate on the basis of religion?  I don't know but I think they may be able to, certainly Catholic schools sometimes let in non-Catholic students and do not provide non-Catholic services. I wouldn't think it would be a good idea though, we never had that during my son's time at RMA.  I think that the school could require you to speak a certain language, again I'm not clear on the reason for it, maybe they thought that you were using the different language to isolate yourself from the program.
Were your parents OK with speaking to you in English on visits, and what explanation did they give you for it?

And in terms of using racial slurs, or self-disclosing examples that you give, I imagine that these things would be legal, as a part of the raps, but I would have to know more about the context to say whether I thought that it sounded helpful. Same with the counsellor who claimed to have molested a 13 yeear old--more information would be necessary to know if hiring was legal: what was his age at the time, how much time had passed.  Whether it was wise for the school to employ him would depend on these and other factors such as what he has done since, in terms of becoming a different person.

I don't know if I have addressed all your scenarios, and I realize that you weren't really asking for my opinion in particularly good faith, but considering these different situations was interesting.  It does illustrated the complexities of mixing educational-therapeutic elements in setting like a CEDU school.  There is certainly a need to consider the least coercive way to move a self-destructive child in a better direction, while being aware that some coercion is always going to be needed, given the nature of the population being addressed.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 21, 2004, 07:13:00 PM

I never said I was fired by CEDU. Interesting...

You are ignoring my noting that your school would be alarmed at your extensive AND histrionic posts. God, woman - you need help. I have done nothing unethical here.

You are making assumptions about who I am. I have no idea what you are thinking. You need help. Period. There is something REALLY wrong with you.

Quote

On 2004-09-21 07:19:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"



Look, you sound like a clown to me, maybe you are a clinician--if so, I can see why CEDU booted you out--the lack of ethics is incredible.



And talk about boundaries--what makes you think that you have any right to demand anything at all of me??  I think I've made pretty clear that if you are really trained to do anything in the helping sciences, I have absolutely no confidence in your abilities or judgment (neither did the school apparently--that's why they canned you and you've been whining about it here, and I suppose elsewhere, ever since).



So seeing as I think this way about you, why would I take your advice or your whiney little "challenge" on anything??



And, as a practical matter, if I had decided to do anything that you suggested, I would certainly not report it here.  As you would know if you could read for content to any great degree, I am not here in any clinical role myself, thinking that to be ethically shady, and I will discuss neither my work or my education on these pages, any further than in the very general biographical terms by which I've introduced myself.



You, in short, are "full of prunes" as my grandmother used to say, I don't trust your ethics, your judgment, your opinion, you just seem very lame to me.



Contrary to your belief, I really don't spend much time here and I don't have an interest in debating the same repetitiouspoints over and over with you when I am. So run your silly little gambits on someone who takes you seriously, or more correctly someone who hasn't caught on to you yet. Or prepare to keep on being laughed at.  And ignored unless you can do better and be more original than your track record up to now suggests.







[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:19 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:26 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-21 07:27 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 21, 2004, 07:14:00 PM

No worries, Shanlea. She is lying. She is not in a clinical program and she'll never have a school. It's all bullshit.

Oh, did you notice how O5 didn't realize that she misspelled a name? (Pixie) - she evidently thought she was logged in as O2. Interesting...

Quote

On 2004-09-21 12:31:00, shanlea wrote:

"Ottawa, you are the very, very last person who should be talking to someone about their ethics at CEDU. The very organization you defend is rife with therapeutic corruption from it's foundation.



I wonder how long it will take for your own school to have a special slot here at Fornits?"

[ This Message was edited by: manchester on 2004-09-21 16:17 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: ottawa5 on September 21, 2004, 08:11:00 PM

As I have mentioned, I get contacted every few weeks by someone who has a child in trouble or who wants information from me about schools for someone who has a child in trouble.

Well I got one such call today.  I gave  my advice that RMA had worked very well for us and offered my son as a contact that represents a CEDU success story. However, I also mentioned this site and noted that it is frequented by some ex-students who hate the school. I gave the gentleman the web address and told him he should check it out.

What an interesting collection of posts he will see, representing people who hate CEDU.  

It will be quite a contrast to the way my son presents himself, that's for sure!

I also got contacted today by someone who is interested in opening an emotional-growth school and who is looking for partners.  

By the way, in case it is not clear, one does not have to have any kind of a degree to open such a school (Mel Wasserman was an example of that, you can always just hire a clinical director if you style the school in a way that requires such an internal post.

So things are moving along well, I may be able to get started on that project before I finish my other one.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 21, 2004, 09:12:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-09-21 14:27:00, Bryan Felsher wrote:

"I don't know.  Something about you Ottawa makes me just want to fucking pound your skull in over, and over, and over, and over, and over....Nah, I'd rather fist fuck ya."

no!  it's ALL about the skull fuckage (something my virginal 12 year old ass learned about during my stay at cedu).. just gauge out an eyeball and BAM!
teehee

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Ottawa2 on September 21, 2004, 09:36:00 PM

Well Lets see,
I would like to say to all the people at this site that I find you all utterly amusing.(espeacily the part where you thought my mother and I were the same person! :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:

(Ps: Just to clearify: do not respnd to this you will not get a reply)
 :wave:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 21, 2004, 11:01:00 PM

Adios. Don't let the door hit you on teh ass on the way out.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 21, 2004, 11:08:00 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHA!! :lol:  :lol:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 22, 2004, 01:19:00 AM

Ottawa, you have my name and number.  Go ahead and fucking sue me!

I repeat, I'd love to skull fuck your ass with my fist.  

I'd love to tie your legs up in the air and crosscut saw you in half.

I'd love to bury you alive with a cell phone and  me on the other end.

I'd love to skin you alive, then take you to the hospital.

I'm sick of you, and now I'm trying to find out who you are and where you live.  If your daughter is really not you, then I'll have twice the fun!

P.S.  Shove your advice up your fucking ass!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 22, 2004, 03:22:00 AM

you see it here, folks! she's admitting that she is not in school and she's a FUCKING LIAR! she'll be great for starting a school because mel wasserman was such an asshole that staff had to work to keep him away from parents becauswe he would say something awful and they would pull their kids! this bitch would be perfect for a cedu kind of place! you go, o5! open your school and destroy all those kids' psyches! you go, girl! you're perfect for the job!

Quote

On 2004-09-21 17:11:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"By the way, in case it is not clear, one does not have to have any kind of a degree to open such a school (Mel Wasserman was an example of that, you can always just hire a clinical director if you style the school in a way that requires such an internal post.



So things are moving along well, I may be able to get started on that project before I finish my other one."

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: MorganG on September 22, 2004, 03:50:00 AM

When I was at Cedu I was abused my faculity at Cedu.  You know there is a civial code in the state of california that says any one who practices therapy without license and creates harm is liable for up to $10,000 dollars.  Also let me tell you that in the I Want to Live Propheet there is a part when you try and get up and the faculity are pulling you legs out to prevent you from getting up.  I believe this to be abuse.  I was denied from listing to music I wanted to this is a violation of freedom of speech.  I was not allowed to express my own opinons of things with out being yelled.  Finally I was illegally stripped search when I was there.  I never consented to be searched and the school knew I did not smoke, drink, or do drugs so there was no probable cause.  The school breaks laws rights of all

All penalties for drug users should be dropped...Making drug abuse a crime is useless and even dangerous...Every year we seize more and more drugs but the quantity available still increases...Police are losing the drug battle worldwide.


--Raymond Kendall ~ Secretary General of Interpol 1994

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 22, 2004, 12:45:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-09-22 00:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"you see it here, folks! she's admitting that she is not in school and she's a FUCKING LIAR!

Quote

On 2004-09-21 17:11:00, ottawa5 wrote:


"By the way, in case it is not clear, one does not have to have any kind of a degree to open such a school (Mel Wasserman was an example of that, you can always just hire a clinical director if you style the school in a way that requires such an internal post.





So things are moving along well, I may be able to get started on that project before I finish my other one."

"

that's an illogical deduction... she didn't "admit" to that at all... what she did do was make an evasive statement about how she might be able to open this skool with another person who, like herself, may or may not have a degree.

_________________
laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-22 09:49 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 22, 2004, 04:46:00 PM

Well, yeah, I'm aware of that. BUT, her evasiveness is, I think, good evidence. She has been looking like a bit of a nut - to me, anyway - and I've suspected all along that she is not in a Ph.D. program and is lying. She has NEVER responded to the suggestion that she show ALL of her posts to the school. She ignores that question completely. I've suspected for a long time that she is in no program, and now I'm even more convinced.

I really like your logical mind, Laura!

Quote

On 2004-09-22 09:45:00, mikehunt wrote:

"

Quote

On 2004-09-22 00:22:00, Anonymous wrote:



"you see it here, folks! she's admitting that she is not in school and she's a FUCKING LIAR!

Quote

On 2004-09-21 17:11:00, ottawa5 wrote:





"By the way, in case it is not clear, one does not have to have any kind of a degree to open such a school (Mel Wasserman was an example of that, you can always just hire a clinical director if you style the school in a way that requires such an internal post.











So things are moving along well, I may be able to get started on that project before I finish my other one."

"

that's an illogical deduction... she didn't "admit" to that at all... what she did do was make an evasive statement about how she might be able to open this skool with another person who, like herself, may or may not have a degree.



_________________

laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-22 09:49 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 22, 2004, 06:11:00 PM

whether she's in an academic program or not really makes no difference to me... like i've said, skool can provide you with information and techniques; they can cram your brain full of information, but they can't teach you how to use it (your brain, that is... including all the information.)  without self-discovered application skills, all the information in the world is absolutely useless.

by the way, thanks, i dig my mind as well.  i appreciate your observance, both in regards to me and not.

_________________
laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-22 15:14 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 23, 2004, 01:40:00 PM

Laura, I completely agreed with you on this, until I gave it some thought. She was using her claim of being in a Ph.D. program as a part of her exploration of CEDU. Now that I give it more consideration, I'm thinking that it is important - not for purpose of academics - you've made great points here that school doesn't mean you're brilliant or anything. I always say that. It only proves that you decided to go to school and finished it. But, the possibility that she used this claim as a part of her persona - trying to "learn" more about eveyone's experience here - that possibility is disturbing to me. Why would she do this? Am I feeling defensive about my profession? Absolutely! I'm sure that's in there and I have no objectivity about her. None whatsoever. But I think there is an element of reason to what I'm saying. She misrepresented her credentials (I believe), claimed she wanted to learn from us, and then engaged in a long, drawn-out battle of baiting! We responded to her baits and we baited her back. I was looking at a post by Investigator, who suggested that we might consider ignoring baiting.

I'm thinking it would be good to consider Detective Wyatt's (sp?) advice. Ignore her baiting. She is infuriating, no doubt. But there is no point in arguing with someone like her. She enjoys taunting us and trying to "catch" us at - I don't know what. Clearly, there is something wrong. I wouldn't argue with a toddler. Why have I argued with her? I'll tell you why - she frustrates and angers me!

I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm sick and tired of her, but I still get hooked by her bait! I need to stop that! She has never responded to my one query and comes off as superior. That really gets to me. It's about credibility - she's making claims and attacking people here who I care about - every damn one of you! So, that pisses me off - if she were to come here and just say she's an individual and not make those claims, maybe I wouldn't be so mad. I don't know... maybe I'd still feel exactly the same. At any rate...

We have learned on this website that O5 has posted as AARCgrad. I looked AARC up - it's a recovery center. Here's the url:

http://www.aarc.ab.ca/ (http://www.aarc.ab.ca/)

In her posts here as AARCgrad, I noticed something interesting - she puts that stupid, smart-ass smiley-waving green guy in her first post - the same one O2 uses. Interesting...

Anyway, Laura - you're awfully smart and a voice of rationality here and I do appreciate every work you say!  

There are three AARCgrad posts. Here they are:

Posted: 2002-12-02 15:07:00    I just came across this website by mistake and this will be my first AND last time writing here. I have no idea what Kids (or any of those other rehabs) are like but I graduated from AARC about 6 years ago. I could go on and on about how AARC abused me and feel angry every day about the fact that I spent almost a year and a half there when I'm not even an alcoholic (I've been drinking socially for years). But I have chosen to go on with my life and make the best of my experiences. I agree that AARC is like a cult, but all of you have formed your own cult with this website. GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES! How are you ever going to feel freedom from this experience if you check this website everyday and think about it all the time? I have no idea what my life would be like if I never went through AARC- all I know is that my life is fantastic now, and that's all that matters to me. I went through a really hard time when I first "relapsed" but now I'm living with my family, doing great in university, travelling across the world- and having a drink every now and then. Because I don't let AARC influence my thinking anymore, I have no reason to hate them- they can only affect you as much as you let them. If there was just one thing you should have learned in AARC, it's the serenity prayer- we cannot change what we've been through, but we can choose how we feel/think about it. I always used to think that "what doesn't kill you makes you insane", but I really do believe now that it can make you stronger- if you STOP DWELLING IN IT! I don't know if what I did will work for anyone else or whether or not you're alcoholics but I'm pretty sure that if you want to feel stronger (instead of insane), make this the last message on this website you read and figure out for yourselves what you need to do to finally feel that serenity that we were promised (in step 7?) but never felt.
Good luck
:wave:

Posted: 2002-12-03 00:04:00    I know that I said I wouldn't write again, but I was curious to see the reactions to what I wrote-and I have to say, I really love it when people prove my point. This website might help people. To be honest with you, it reminds me of AA meetings- just a bunch of bitter people making eachother feel justified in being bitter. Maybe you all think I'm rude and egocentrical for criticizing something that has improved a few peoples' lives- but do you really think that AARC hasn't improved a single person's life? I feel the need to clarify my statement that "AARC abused me". We always say "AARC", but it's not like the building abused us. When I say I felt abused, I am mainly talking about a couple of oldcomers I had and two staff members who (to my knowledge) no longer work at AARC- Mr.G and Mr.Haag. If I found out that they still worked at AARC, then I would have different feelings about it. I believe that Dr.Vause started AARC with good intentions but he has made mistakes. 5 years ago, I was so angry and confused that I would have NEVER believed that I would even slightly defend Dr.Vause, but I know for a fact that he cared about me, as I'm sure he feels about all of the kids who have gone through AARC. I respect what you are trying to do Velvet, but like you, Dr.Vause did what he thought would help us when we had very few alternatives. Maybe Dr.Vause did get a bit cocky over the years and can't see his mistakes because his head is so far up his ass, but from what I've heard about KIDS and STRAIT, AARC is not as bad as some people are making it sound.

My point is, if AARC is still bothering some of you this much after 10 or so years, then you have deeper issues. Although AARC might not be great, it's all some (very unfortunate) people have. A few people I know personally have greatly benefited from AARC, so even though I haven't- I don't think that it's right to try to stop something that for some people, is their only hope. Coming on this website and bitching about AARC and how Dr.Vause is responsible for someone's suicide is just pathetic and harsh and does not help anyone. You can focus on the good things that you learned in AARC, or you can focus on all the bad. Some of you even claim to still be sober- do you honestly think that AARC had no part in that? In your reply Velvet, you can replace your feelings about this website with Dr.Vause's feelings about AARC. You might not think that that is a fair comparison because this website doesn't abuse people, but I think that it does- I think that it contributes to bitterness and gives people an excuse to not take respnsibility for their lives. I CANNOT REST UNTIL YOU ARE ALL STOPPED! (that was a joke)

I sincerely sympathize with some of you and wish you all the best, but move on or seek professional help- this website is not the way.

[ This Message was edited by: AARCgrad on 2002-12-03 00:08 ]

24.71.223.143 ( px4so.cg.shawcable.net )
Posted: 2002-12-03 18:50:00    Velvet, I seriously have NO idea what you're talking about. There wasn't a single thing in your reply that made any sense to me whatsoever. I'm guessing someone with the same username as me wrote a few months ago- do you really think that AARCgrad is such an original username that it could only be me?
I can tell that my presence on this site is not wanted, and to be honest with you, I wish I never found it. I really don't feel like dealing with this anymore because like I said, I have found peace and happiness. Ever since I found this site 2 DAYS AGO, I have felt so sad knowing that there are so many people feeling as I did 4-5 years ago. It's a terrible way to feel and I believe that you are just the blind leading the blind. You can write whatever you want in reply to this, but I assure you, I won't be reading it. If I kept coming to this site, I would be a hypocrite. I was hoping to try and help people achieve what I have, but the only thing I've accomplished in writing on this site is frustrating myself because none of you seem to want to understand. I have nothing else to say here.
Goodbye

Quote

On 2004-09-22 15:11:00, mikehunt wrote:

"whether she's in an academic program or not really makes no difference to me... like i've said, skool can provide you with information and techniques; they can cram your brain full of information, but they can't teach you how to use it (your brain, that is... including all the information.)  without self-discovered application skills, all the information in the world is absolutely useless.



by the way, thanks, i dig my mind as well.  i appreciate your observance, both in regards to me and not.



_________________

laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-22 15:14 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 23, 2004, 02:53:00 PM

How did we learn she posted as AARC grad? If that is the case, and she was there six years from 2002 (8 from now) how could she be old enough to ba a mother of a college-aged son?  Her syntax, tone, and other semantic codes are not as erudite as the O5 postings, but some of that attitude is there.

How did you find out about AARC link--it does make sense because the facility is located in Canada where she is from.  BUt it would mean a whole lot of other stuff is fabricated...

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 23, 2004, 03:04:00 PM

If the IPs match then she indeed posted those messages posing as a 'somewhat' happy grad of AARC. That would be my take, not that she attended the program. It wouldn't surprise me. Only Ginger could confirm it though.

This thread was specific to AARP. She claimed to know nothing about the program. This is an earlier thread in which she introduces herself as a Psych working on her doctorate, slings around plenty of pysch terms/labels, and quasi diagnoses.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... rt=0&Sort= (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=5998&forum=4&start=0&Sort=)[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-23 12:24 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 23, 2004, 03:09:00 PM

Keep the info coming.  I'm going to find her fucking ass!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 23, 2004, 03:22:00 PM

she is most definitely an antagonist... she will say whatever she can to make sure that you respond to her in a less than rational manner.  the best thing to do isn't necessarily ignore her, but ignore her stabs (i.e. when she responded to me, she made sure to tell me how childish she thought my name was, as if it were somehow relevent or important.)  you just have to see through her bullshit to her true motives, and deprive her of her antagonistic success...
i would dare to say, however, that all of our hostile responses have helped her to fulfill her mission; she did say that she directs interested people to the site, and look at what they get to see... a bunch of ex-cedu (a good amount, proportionally, who ran away or did not complete the program) kids wil'in out, acting immature.  then again, this could also prove how detrimental cedu was to our mental health, but, surely, she prefaces such redirections to this site in such a way that would slant the viewer's perspective to impose her bias.

_________________
laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-23 12:26 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 23, 2004, 03:37:00 PM

Ginger posted it. She posted it after O5 had smugly criticized others for posting anonymously - she had done so a bunch of times. Ginger looked it up.

Quote

On 2004-09-23 11:53:00, shanlea wrote:

"How did we learn she posted as AARC grad? If that is the case, and she was there six years from 2002 (8 from now) how could she be old enough to ba a mother of a college-aged son?  Her syntax, tone, and other semantic codes are not as erudite as the O5 postings, but some of that attitude is there.



How did you find out about AARC link--it does make sense because the facility is located in Canada where she is from.  BUt it would mean a whole lot of other stuff is fabricated..."

[ This Message was edited by: manchester on 2004-09-23 12:39 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 23, 2004, 03:47:00 PM

WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW!!!!! I can't believe it! Wow! Ginger said that the IPs matched and she was posting as AARCgrad. Also, Ginger noted that she had posted 32 times anonymously! Here's Ottawa's post that sparked Ginger's response:  

A parent who sent a child to
 Posted: 2004-07-31 10:00:00    

On 2004-07-10 11:45:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"Normally I don't address anonymous postings (you can't always tell if it is a new person or one of the site "regulars" having a little fun with you)

Quote

On 2004-09-23 12:04:00, Deborah wrote:

"If the IPs match then she indeed posted those messages posing as a 'somewhat' happy grad of AARC. That would be my take, not that she attended the program. It wouldn't surprise me. Only Ginger could confirm it though.



This thread was specific to AARP. She claimed to know nothing about the program. This is an earlier thread in which she introduces herself as a Psych working on her doctorate, slings around plenty of pysch terms/labels, and quasi diagnoses.

http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... rt=0&Sort= (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=5998&forum=4&start=0&Sort=)[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-23 12:24 ]"

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Deborah on September 23, 2004, 04:56:00 PM

I can't find a post by Ginger stating that the IPs are the same- mainly because the search function is malfuntioning. Everytime I click a link and go back to the search list, it's timed out, and I have to start all over with a new search for the same criteria.
Oh well, if you know where it is, post the link.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 23, 2004, 05:02:00 PM

Look at page 3

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 4&start=20 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&topic=5998&forum=4&start=20)

Quote

On 2004-09-23 13:56:00, Deborah wrote:

"

I can't find a post by Ginger stating that the IPs are the same- mainly because the search function is malfuntioning. Everytime I click a link and go back to the search list, it's timed out, and I have to start all over with a new search for the same criteria.

Oh well, if you know where it is, post the link."

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 24, 2004, 01:59:00 PM

yeh, then check out page 4...
 :roll:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 4&start=30 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?Sort=&mode=viewtopic&topic=5998&forum=4&start=30)

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 24, 2004, 03:43:00 PM

Interesting...

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Antigen on September 24, 2004, 03:48:00 PM

No, it's not necessarily the same person or exact location. They're dialup IP addresses. It only means that both people are using the same service provider and, unless someone's paying for long distance, they're probably located within the same intralata calling area. I have NO idea how large those are in Canada. Here, you can usually hit over a million phone numbers toll free from the same location.

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 24, 2004, 04:19:00 PM

So... they are not from the same phone/dsl/cable location? Not the same house?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 24, 2004, 05:18:00 PM

they don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, they just live in relative proximity and use the same service provider (i.e. aol or earthlink).

_________________
laura solomon[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-09-24 14:18 ]

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 24, 2004, 05:39:00 PM

ok, so basically O5 one person with many idenity issues?  is that right or worng?  <- that wasn't ment to sound rude, sorry if it did. :wink:

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: mikehunt on September 24, 2004, 05:51:00 PM

Quote

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

"

wow, i absolutely hate that quote.

pixie, that is unconfirmed.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: **PIXIE DUST** on September 24, 2004, 08:14:00 PM

ok, thanks!

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: manchester on September 24, 2004, 10:07:00 PM

Okay, so I misinterpreted - she's still full of shit, though! Okay, so my goal here is to ignore her from now on.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 27, 2004, 10:11:00 AM

I did like the quote. Funny, I was glad to see someone else comment on it. I think it makes some sense.
Wasting your time 'cause that's all I gotta say.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: shanlea on September 28, 2004, 09:40:00 AM

I was always curious if the newbie staff when I was there stuck with it or got out.

Bryan, SOS, Morgan? Do you know what happened to Wanda, Steven Houghton, Alex's wife Julie, Delia, Penelope? Bruce Boslough?

I was surprised to hear Steve Laird was more visible after I left. I barely remember him he was so off the radar when I was there. He supervised some of my work details for table time but I totally forgot about him.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: CEDU IS A CULT on September 28, 2004, 12:26:00 PM

Wanda was a total nut.  Bruce was one of the more mellow staff there, but still a total nut.  Delia quit before I got there.  I barely remember Penileope.  Steve Laird was a cocksucking child molester.

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: Anonymous on September 28, 2004, 07:50:00 PM

i ATTENDED FROM 72 -73 AND EVEN BACK THEN THE THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON WERE HORRIBLE, i CAN NAME AT LEAST 15 OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, AND PROBABLY MORE IF I KNEW IT WAS SAFETO DO SO.  I CAN EVEN NAME COUNSELORS WHO HAD SEX WITH AT LEAST 4 PEOPLE IN OUR DORM....SO 05 WHATCHA GOTTA SAY ABOUT THAT?

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: blownawaytheidahoway on September 29, 2004, 03:18:00 AM

she's gone so name names. that's a long time ago. NAME NAMES!!!
-kazan

Title: FORMER CEDU STAFF
Post by: totem on October 07, 2004, 10:46:00 PM

just to let you all know.. brandi elliot and matt russell left employment of cedu middle school.. also bill shea..

Title: all the staff and parent communicators and money grubbers
Post by: Anonymous on November 12, 2007, 03:34:42 PM

up dog.

deep breath.


...and return to pigfucking.