Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 06, 2006, 09:10:00 AM
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I am considering a placement for my son. He is 12 years old and a very troubled boy. My psychiatrist reccomends a facility called SUWS for a short term placement followed by a long term placement elsewhere. That elsewhere has yet to be determined. Of course I am very concerned and would like to know all of my options. Sending my son off to a wilderness program does seem desirable, but on the other hand I have read so many bad articles about these places.
If I do send my son to a wilderness program what do you suggest that I look for?
What are the possible alternatives I may have overlooked?
In the end I just want my son to be safe. I accept that he will make many mistakes throughout his life, but I know I will not be able to live with myself if my child has a rotten start at life through bad choices.
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need a ruling, please! is a wilderness program considered a facility, Mr. Moderator?
yes it is. [ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:08 ]
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On 2006-06-06 06:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am considering a placement for my son. He is 12 years old and a very troubled boy. My psychiatrist reccomends a facility called SUWS for a short term placement followed by a long term placement elsewhere. That elsewhere has yet to be determined. Of course I am very concerned and would like to know all of my options. Sending my son off to a wilderness program does seem desirable, but on the other hand I have read so many bad articles about these places.
If I do send my son to a wilderness program what do you suggest that I look for?
What are the possible alternatives I may have overlooked?
In the end I just want my son to be safe. I accept that he will make many mistakes throughout his life, but I know I will not be able to live with myself if my child has a rotten start at life through bad choices. "
SUWS is a confirmedly abusive wilderness program.
See here:
suws
Also, may I ask what your child's diagnosis is? Has he been evaluated and given a full battery of psychometric testing by a reputable psychologist that specializes in adolescents? If not, this should be your FIRST STEP.
What concerns me further is that your psychiatrist is recommending this course of treatment at all, considering the copious research that indicates "wilderness therapy" provides no therapeutic benefit whatsoever and that long-term placement and aggregation of distressed teens leads directly (causality, not correlation)to a higher rate of pathology and delinquency, not a "cure" for it.
You should do your research carefully and engage the services of a reputable practitioner that uses research-proven effective treatment. The path to giving your son a good start in life shouldn't be paved with research-proven ineffective treatment.
Has he had individual/group therapy? Has your family tried Functional Family Therapy in conjuction with an after-school program for your son? What about mentoring?
In any case, residential treatment for adolescents should be reserved for those who are severely clinically disturbed and are a physical danger to themselves or others - this condition represents less than 1% of severe clinical pathology - and should never last longer than the requisite period to stabilize the child (30 days maximum).
In other words, if your son has been diagnosed with a severe mental disorder, this still would not require residential placement unless it were accompanied by acts of violence to self or others.
That being said, if your son does indeed meet these criteria, a "TBS" or "Emotional Growth" or "Boot Camp" or "Behavior Modification" placement does not and can not provide the appropriate level of care for this condition.
Good luck with your son. Explore your community-based options with a reputable adolescent specialist and make an informed decision on your child's treatment planning. Don't be hoodwinked by slick marketers that prey upon your desperate situation - brochures mean nothing - ask for longitudinal clinical studies that show efficacy for their particular program (not surveys). If they can't provide that, they are hucksters, plain and simple, and should be strictly avoided.
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We had great sucess with Second Nature Wilderness Program. Both the Utah and Georgia campuses are good. It is not an abusive program. My son loved it and we we received great family therapy as well.
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That's great that you got lucky and had a "good experience." That in no way, shape or form provides evidence of efficacy. Your anecdote, while some may find it "soothing," means absolutely nothing in regard to clinical validity, nor is it a typical experience.
Again, do your research. "Wilderness Therapy" is research-proven ineffective through clinical study and the results are incontrovertible. A single anecdote does nothing to change that. It's like saying "I drive drunk and I've never crashed." Well, great, but research shows it is dangerous to drive drunk.
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"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-06 10:14 ]
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Just sharing our "real life" experience with Second Nature Wilderness Program. It worked for our son and many, many others. Most pro-wilderness families don't come around these parts. There are terrible boot camp type wilderness programs but SNWP is not one of them. I urge you to give them a call. It is the only wilderness program I would recommend. You won't hear this often on this site but it can be just as dangerous to do nothing. Since you've been seeing what I'm sure is a reputable psychiatrist, I can only assume that you've tried everything the previous poster listed above. Sometimes you run out of options- we did. Use this site to rule out the worst of the worst and keep in mind that there are good places out there.
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You won't hear this often on this site but it can be just as dangerous to do nothing. Since you've been seeing what I'm sure is a reputable psychiatrist...
I don't think anybody here is advocating "do nothing." That's a mischaracterization designed to erode credibility of some people here. Don't set up strawmen to knock down - that's not a fair or accurate assessment of what people are saying here.
I question your statement that a particular psychiatrist is "reputable" based on absolutely no evidence. This is the same type of judgemental, factually bereft reasoning that fills teen warehouses to capacity. I take issue with that line of thinking.
The fact of the matter is that there are disreputable psychiatrists, just like there are disreputable mechanics, lawyers and business managers.
I have heard parents report that their psychiatrist recommended "wilderness" because they had received a brochure in the mail and "it looked nice." There are also psychiatrists who try to medicate every issue. Both of these sceanarios illustrate poor judgement and certainly psychiatrists aren't immune to it.
Get out of your feelings and into your head. Use your brain. Research, compare, ask questions and make an informed decision.
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I agree with Dysfunction Junction. What is this boy's diagnosis by this psychiatrist? Why does this psychiatrist feel unable to treat this boy himself/herself? Why must this young 12 year old be sent away from home to be treated?
His "start in life" should begin at home, around people who love and care for him.
Is he a danger to himself or others?
I'd ask this psychiatrist to show be medical studies that PROVE wilderness programs and long-term facilities actually WORK for whatever this boy's diagnosis is. This psychiatrist will not be able to provide any such studies.
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I'm assuming he/she knows the boy and the family circumstances better than we do.
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On 2006-06-06 11:11:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"I have heard parents report that their psychiatrist recommended "wilderness" because they had received a brochure in the mail and "it looked nice."
Post the link.
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FYI, Dysfunction Junction believes that NO reputable psychiatrist would recommend Wilderness. This is untrue. Our son's psychiatrist, the Adolescent Psych. Director of a major hospital/institution, not only recommended the program, he had previously been on site several times and consulted with the staff psychologists that treated our boy. He doesn't recommend the program for all kids- just the ones he thinks would benefit. There is certainly a type of kid that would not do well in that setting.
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What type of kid would not do well in a wilderness program? Could you enlighten us? That is a serious questions.
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On 2006-06-06 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"FYI, Dysfunction Junction believes that NO reputable psychiatrist would recommend Wilderness. This is untrue. Our son's psychiatrist, the Adolescent Psych. Director of a major hospital/institution, not only recommended the program, he had previously been on site several times and consulted with the staff psychologists that treated our boy. He doesn't recommend the program for all kids- just the ones he thinks would benefit. There is certainly a type of kid that would not do well in that setting."
This is a parent who has already admitted to sending her kid to wilderness FIRST and only LATER having the psych that is EMPLOYED AT THE FACILITY recommend HIS OWN PROGRAM. Her kid was never diagnosed with any mental disorder whatsoever. Take it for what it's worth - this lady has an agenda to promote programs and to attack other PEOPLE instead of their ARGUMENTS.
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To the parent who said DJ doesn't believe any PSY would recommend a wilderness program:
Did you enroll you kid at a wilderness program BEORE seeing this shrink or NOT?
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After he had been seeing the psychiatrist for nearly a year he recommended Second Nature.
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where's that moderator with the BS Meter? Seems like delete time!
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On 2006-06-06 12:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
On 2006-06-06 11:11:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"I have heard parents report that their psychiatrist recommended "wilderness" because they had received a brochure in the mail and "it looked nice."
Post the link.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#179065 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14328&forum=9&start=60#179065)
There goes your argument. If you spent a little bit of time fact-checking, rather than relentlessly trolling my posts to get a jab in, you wouldn't look as ignorant as you do now.
Have a great day.
To the parent looking into things, it will serve you well to understand that some program parents that post here are not interested in facts or research. They are on an never-ending mission to justify their own poor parenting choices and they do this through continual ad hominem attacks against survivors of abusive programs, clinicians, former employees or anyone who disagrees with their factually unsubstantiated dogma. Just be aware that these people, like the woman who posted before, have an agenda only to discredit or smear people with different points of view because their point of view is entirely unsupported by research. Their last resort is "flame wars" to derail the subject.
Some of them also get "referral fees" for getting another parent to sign their child into a program. These "bonuses" are typically around $1000/kid. So be aware also that there is financial incentive for some of these vultures.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:10 ]
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You are the ones with the agenda. My kid went to Second Nature, did well there, came back home and we all think it was a good experience for him. He actually liked it. The Psychiatrist in question is not an employee of Second Nature. There are no Psychiatrists on staff at Second Nature that I know of. My son's Dr. did a good job of communicating with the therapists there as MY SON'S concerned physician. It's called thouroughness and good medicine. On the front side, he did his homework, liked the set-up and recommended we give it a try.
To the original poster: I am not attacking anyone. I do believe I am the one being attacked because I promote the program, any program. I, too, was where you were four years ago. We tried everything and I know it is a very scary time for you. There are god-awful programs out there. I'm just giving you my own personal recommendation. I do not claim to be a professional. You've been to a professional that gave you some advice. We are a family that has been where you are and we made a good choice for OUR son. That is all I can say. I do not have statistics at my fingertips, and don't intend to spend the afternoon researching SNWP's effectiveness. By all means, get several opinions. You'll find this is a volitile subject and most people posting here are kids that SHOULD NOT have gone to a program of any kind. Good luck. It does get better.
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think struggling parents have already invaded.
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Second Nature does not give referral fees of any kind.
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After your son completed wilderness at Second Nature; what long-term program did you enroll him in? How long was he in this long-term program?
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:15 ]
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He came home after Second Nature and continued out-patient therapy. He continues to see a therapist every two weeks now and may continue to do so as long as he would like to.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:15 ]
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To the original poster: I think you are now quite able to see how one-sided this forum gets. I just stop by from time to time to give my personal story.
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Wow ... a whole bunch of responses, but not really complete.
I believe that for many adolescents and young adults a therapeutic wilderness program can have great value. While I don't think SUWS "abusive", others may have a different view of what constitutes abuse. Finally, I keep seeing reference to "studies" that purportedly "prove" wilderness (and other programs) ineffective or worse, but have only been directed to a couple that studied a smallish group of atypical, court-adjudicated kids - atypical as in not very similar backgrounds or issues to those whose parents make the placement decision.
All that said, I think 12 is a bit on the young side for wilderness. If he's not especially athletic, that will work against him as well.
You say your son is a "very troubled boy". What are those troubles? What, besides psychiatrist visits (and medication? - which could also be problematic in wilderness), have you done to help? Have you tried working with the local schools to get in-school supports/help or to find an alternative school?
If, in the end, you do decide to use a wilderness program, you should know that there are a few that are costly and largely ineffective, a few that are less costly and sort-of "run of the mill", several excellent but costly and quite varied programs, and a few excellent, low-cost programs for early intervention, not well-developed problems. NONE of these programs are enough in and of themselves. If you haven't figured out what you will do for follow-up, do that first.
For planning purposes - figure that wilderness will cost from $10,000 to $30,000, and a residential therapeutic placement can easily run $5,000+ per month for 9 - 20+ months. Be sure before you start down that road. And, half a good program may well be worse than none.
So, while I disagree with disfunctional presumptions and pseudo-facts, I agree that you've a long way to go first, and what you are considering is not the first, or second, or third choice.
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Original poster: I'm sorry to say that I just looked at the Second Nature website and they begin taking kids at 13 years of age. My son was 16. Good luck.
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I believe that for many adolescents and young adults a therapeutic wilderness program can have great value.
Can you support this statement with any research studies or independent documentation? Or is this just your opinion?
If it's just your opinion, please tell us what your educational background is in psychology/sociology that would lead you to a reasonable, fact-based assessment of the "great value" these facilities provide.
Also, I think you must not have read much of the research available. You seem to be only referring to a single study that, in your opinion, doesn't apply. It's failrly obvious that you have quite a bit more reading to do before you can comment intelligently on the research. I've pointed out many, many sources to research studies, professional journals, policy statements, etc. You should do a little more work before you call documented truths "pseudo-facts."
If you don't care to look at the dispositive evidence, please simply provide evidence of efficacy other than your opinion or some anecdotes.
Thanks.
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If the "mom" posting and testifying about Second Nature is actually "Karen," then she also posts on Struggling Teens as Hstreet, and just posted there that she has just recently changed her name to Random Walk. STRANGE, STRANGE.
The orginal "mom" looking for advice: you have a 12 year old little boy. Kids die in these wilderness programs, and that is a FACT.
Pull up the names Aaron Bacon, or Michelle Sutton: and that is only two out of many children who have died in wilderness programs.
Think hard before you send this boy off.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:13 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:21 ]
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On 2006-06-06 12:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What type of kid would not do well in a wilderness program? Could you enlighten us? That is a serious questions."
I'm not a psychiatrist. But, I hope that if the psychiatrist that did recommend SUWS to this Mom did some research on the place and knows whether or not it's a good alternative for her son, his patient. I don't know too many psychiatrists that like to put their reputations on the line by recommending something they know to be proven harmful to their patients.
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:21 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:13 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:12 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:12 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 20:13 ]
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Hi
To the original poster. Why not get a second opinion for another independent doctor? While this progamme may be quite good it is a risk to send your kid on any wilderness therapy?
Do you know whether it has a tough love philosophy or whether kids have to "earn" basic priveliges, if so It may not be for you.
Remember mental illness is a health issue not a disciplinary one.
Cheers
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TSW demanding maturity!
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read the welcome thread. [ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 21:10 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-06 21:01 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-07 00:35 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-07 00:35 ]
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TSW, how does this censorship compare to that of ST? I'll just call you Lon Fornits.