Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: someone on December 02, 2005, 01:06:00 AM
-
Hi John,
I remember you well. I know that what you say is true. Isn't it nice to have someone affirm the things you say even when you already know that what you are saying is true?
I was involved with The Seed in Fort Lauderdale for a very, very long time. I was never a staff member; just a volunteer. I must say it was a ?tough love? program. I will also say that at times it was very harsh, but I remember a lot of the people that entered the program were in very bad shape (not everyone was just a 15 year old spoiled brat cry-baby that couldn't get over him or herself). Many of the people that came to the Seed were desperate for help. I for one ? and it was not easy!
Getting off drugs was not the hard part; I had many other problems that were very serious. I learned to live a great life in spite of any treatment that made me uncomfortable. I am very grateful for this. I have learned to be very successful in life, in business, in education, and in society. I am very well adjusted and do not carry a chip on my shoulder for whatever treatment I felt was unjust ? that?s life. Trust me: in the many, many years that I spent volunteering my time at The Seed, I can assure you that I was not always the most popular or favored individual nor did I always like the people that worked at The Seed, but I had the depth to interpret the principals and learn to apply them to my life. I learned to be extremely tough. Trust me when I say that I had very thin skin when I was young. I definitely went through my growing pains, but I grew up!
Good God ? move on!
People are people, and it is amazing how with time and circumstances they change ? some for the better and some for the worse. The reality is that people are very unpredictable, and often you don?t learn the truth about someone until he or she is truly tested.
I know that my life would not be what it is today if I had not learned the things I did at The Seed. It's a shame that Greg and many others missed the point. The shame is that you all waste so much time being so self-absorbed when there are so many real tragedies going on all around you.
I see people all the time who have real problems over which they have no control. I cannot imagine wasting my time dwelling on a situation that occurred 20 or 30 years ago. I can understand venting, but at some point you have to get over it and get on with your life. There's nothing left to destroy. The Seed is gone. I don't see the point in going on and on and on endlessly over petty resentments. It's like playing tic-tac-toe: most people, by the age of 10 realize that it?s pointless.
-
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
-
On 2005-12-01 22:06:00, someone wrote:
The Seed is gone.
"
Well, I say good riddence to a bad place. However, I can appreciate that you experienced it and processed it in a way that is acceptable to you and allows you to have a meaningful and productive life. That's good.
I note that you said the program made you tough, forced you to grow up, get rid of your thin skin. I had the same experience, but unfortunately, instead of externalizing the thoughness like you have, I spent many years turning it on myself.
The Seed as "tough love". No truer words have been spoken. Too bad it wasn't a self-love and self-acceptance program instead.
I ask you, how could every person who walked through the doors be "full of shit" and "selfish users" "liars" and all the other negative things that seed kids were forced to embrace and believe about themselves? But then, at The Seed, denying that you had those qualities actually proved that you have them.
Welcome to the Land of Oz and lucky for you it's all neatly reconciled. Others have not had it so easy. It might seem like whining to you, but then a scrambled psyche is never a pretty sight. Maybe someday we will all be able to embrace all of it. I know that's the path I'm on now.
I, too, know that my life would not be what it is today if I had not been at the seed. If I had not been taught/forced to turn against my true self, to judge myself and judge others so very harshly and continually attempt to "do the right things so the right things will happen", I suspect I might have had a life rich in connection and well-being and full of people who accepted the true me.
Instead I turned into an obsessive, neurotic, over-achiever who has never actually believed I desereved anything I have worked so hard to get. Adopting the Seed philosophy and trying to use it long term in my life has been like swallowing lye and having to keep it inside, all the while never knowing it was eating me alive. Once it ate through, you're right --- I was mad as hell and my "venom" and rotteness spilled out for everyone to experience.
It's mop up time now, thank goodness and I have a good mop and lots of folks who are willing to help empty the buckets. I, for one, am grateful for what I learn here from all the participants, including you.
-
Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk. I'm being honest.
Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own.
-
On 2005-12-02 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk. I'm being honest.
Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own."
Yes, some people might, but I don?t think I?m one of them. How much responsibility I accept for my psychological reaction to being brainwashed and punished for things I never did is a tough question answer. Apparently, persons can live a lifetime trying to compensate for some pretty deep stuff and never really know the root cause. Some people go silently to their demise, others blowup, and others never even wake up.
There?s really no way for me to answer your question that won?t get my ass-kicked by the people who fully believe in the value of tough love programs. If I disagree with your presumption that I would have been ?that way anyway? then I?m in the proverbial denial patch and I?m ?blaming someone for everything instead of accepting responsibility? on my own. And if I agree with you, then I have completely invalidated the actions I have taken in my life to recover from the seed experience.
But I simply cannot deny the damage any longer.
In the context of your question, your use of the word honesty ? well it just seems and odd way to ?soften? the blow of blaming someone for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being lied to and held against their will. The only way out was to admit and embrace some very vile character flaws I never had until then. Like lying, like sacrificing, like turning against another to protect myself. You get my drift?
Don?t get me wrong, I?m no slouch, laying around moaning about how hurt I am or how bad my life has been. To the contrary - I work productively (when I?m not screwing around here but this too, is work), I have my own business, I have two advanced degrees, I am married and I have successfully raised a family and I pay for my kid?s college and my family and friends profess and show me love and kindness daily. I do massive amounts of pro bono work for friends, business associates, family and stangers and I help the elderly at every opportunity. I have been an award winning athlete, and I have fought hard to protect the under dog and accused all of my professional career.
And I?ve let people, like you, who I do not personally know, kick my ass, doubt my ?honesty? and time and time again blame me for the outcome of abuse I never needed to correct a problem I never fucking had. As I said before, it?s mop up time now. Time to reconcile myself with what I did to me. It?s okay if you think my perceptions are wrong because now, if I am wrong, it?s only me I?m hurting and no one else. But I seriously doubt that putting this early piece of my life back together, in perspective, and letting myself off the hook is going to hurt me or you. Really, it can only help me do more of what I do better, for many more people.
As an aside, everyone who reads this forum might want to read Mark Polonsky's article. It was an eye-opener for me. Just like John's posts have validated your sense of self, so this article has validated my sense of self because someone else had an experiece that was so shockingly similar. Taking it all to heart, is a giant leap in the recovery process.
Peace out.
-
Anon, are you sure it's us who missed the point? I mean, if I were you, wouldn't have bothered typing all those words out. All you had to say was "It's not important" and every seedling who came along would have taken the point.
Oh, btw, funny story. That's exactly what John said when I pressed him for an explanation about why no one ever challenged Lybbi's absurd claim to have had a $1k/day H habit (1970 dollars). He finally said "It's not important." I laughed so hard! Not important? Not important??? What's the first and most impotant rule????
When elephants ? ght, it is the grass that suffers.
Kikuyu proverb
-
Antigen- "Thats not important"
By the way Lybbi used to say from my memory $100 dollar a day habit.
-
On 2005-12-02 12:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen- "Thats not important"
By the way Lybbi used to say from my memory $100 dollar a day habit."
I remember a $100 a day habit too. Maybe she was just adjusting for inflation. :wink:
-
On 2005-12-02 09:53:00, Stripe wrote:
"
On 2005-12-02 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk. I'm being honest.
Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own."
Yes, some people might, but I don?t think I?m one of them. How much responsibility I accept for my psychological reaction to being brainwashed and punished for things I never did is a tough question answer. Apparently, persons can live a lifetime trying to compensate for some pretty deep stuff and never really know the root cause. Some people go silently to their demise, others blowup, and others never even wake up.
There?s really no way for me to answer your question that won?t get my ass-kicked by the people who fully believe in the value of tough love programs. If I disagree with your presumption that I would have been ?that way anyway? then I?m in the proverbial denial patch and I?m ?blaming someone for everything instead of accepting responsibility? on my own. And if I agree with you, then I have completely invalidated the actions I have taken in my life to recover from the seed experience.
But I simply cannot deny the damage any longer.
In the context of your question, your use of the word honesty ? well it just seems and odd way to ?soften? the blow of blaming someone for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being lied to and held against their will. The only way out was to admit and embrace some very vile character flaws I never had until then. Like lying, like sacrificing, like turning against another to protect myself. You get my drift?
Don?t get me wrong, I?m no slouch, laying around moaning about how hurt I am or how bad my life has been. To the contrary - I work productively (when I?m not screwing around here but this too, is work), I have my own business, I have two advanced degrees, I am married and I have successfully raised a family and I pay for my kid?s college and my family and friends profess and show me love and kindness daily. I do massive amounts of pro bono work for friends, business associates, family and stangers and I help the elderly at every opportunity. I have been an award winning athlete, and I have fought hard to protect the under dog and accused all of my professional career.
And I?ve let people, like you, who I do not personally know, kick my ass, doubt my ?honesty? and time and time again blame me for the outcome of abuse I never needed to correct a problem I never fucking had. As I said before, it?s mop up time now. Time to reconcile myself with what I did to me. It?s okay if you think my perceptions are wrong because now, if I am wrong, it?s only me I?m hurting and no one else. But I seriously doubt that putting this early piece of my life back together, in perspective, and letting myself off the hook is going to hurt me or you. Really, it can only help me do more of what I do better, for many more people.
As an aside, everyone who reads this forum might want to read Mark Polonsky's article. It was an eye-opener for me. Just like John's posts have validated your sense of self, so this article has validated my sense of self because someone else had an experiece that was so shockingly similar. Taking it all to heart, is a giant leap in the recovery process.
Peace out.
"
Stripe,
I really like your post. I come in here having gone through two totally different experiences at the Seed and not only can I see both sides of this I lived it. I just feel we get so much further when we share our own experience rather than attacking everyone elses. I don't really feel I can argue with what happened to you nor you me. I do appreciate that you expressed it. Consider yourself lucky that you only have the one point of view to reconcile. Very black and white. Imagine if you had these dualistic views that I have to contend with. I am glad you have done well for yourself and others and that you have found some healing here. Tha'ts why I'm here. To find some healing and understanding for myself. As long as people don't try to deny my experience just because it doesn't fit theirs I play pretty nice here if I do say so myself.
peace back at ya
-
Landyh,
Regardless of why or how you came back there, which round, after all these years, was the most helpful to you ? Which was the most damaging? I'm just curious. If that's a question you prefer not to answer, or can't answer right now, I understand. I know my position on the seed has changed over the course of my life.
-
How did you come up with stripe? Why an Arabian type man picture with a mustache? Since you are a woman. Just Wondering?
-
On 2005-12-02 12:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen- "Thats not important"
By the way Lybbi used to say from my memory $100 dollar a day habit."
What's the purpose of bragging about how much dope you shot up anyway? I seem to recall people not in favor who were chastized for saying how much dope they smoked, snorted or shot up.
I think the whole "I did this" routine was used to make us all sit in wonder and awe at the remarkable recovery of X-person. But god help ya if you didn't do enough drugs to really fit in - and God help you more if you did too much and failed to admit it. I truly felt quite inadequate when it came to the my pre-seed drug use - torn between lying about more use than was true, or telling the truth and maybe never being allowed to go home.
Aaahhhh, the trials and tribulations of yesterday's teen...
-
In response to the initial post by "someone:"
I am sure I knew you, at SR 84. Funny to think that, since you are posting anonymously - as to me, I am 'Wally' of course...
I agree with 98% of what you said in your post. But the 2% that I don't agree with is like the difference between night and day.
I was a 'volunteer' too, but not like any kind of volunteer I had ever been before or since. I 'volunteered' at the Seed by giving up every other important relationship in my life up to then, by pledging total allegience to the group, and by denying my basic individuality. The Seed expected, and got, total adherence to its rules, customs, and beliefs, and any dissent that I had within me was kept deep inside. The only other relationship in which I yield so much of myself would be my wife, but from time to time I even disagree with her :wink:
Also, the reason why I read this site and think about it a lot is not because I live in the past, but because A. it was 7 years of my life B. it was like nothing else I have experienced C. I want to understand what it means to me and to our culture about addiction, power, friendship, etc. What could be more important?
So yes, I will read here and post here, struggling to find out what I experienced, and trying to form a response to what the Seed. addiction, family and friendship are all about.
What I DON'T understand is all those who went thru the Seed experience and either can't or won't think critically about it. Telling people to 'get over it' is a huge cop out - what do you care if people want to think/talk about this? It is still relevent.
Finally, there are hundreds of Seed copy-cat programs all over the world. The Seed may have closed but it has a legacy, for better or worse. Do you have children? Would you put them in Kids Helping Kids or any number of programs like that?
Finally - love ya...I still feel a real connection to the Seed and people I met there, even though most of them will never talk to me! I am happily, a fuck-up and drop out of the program!
-
On 2005-12-02 13:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How did you come up with stripe? Why an Arabian type man picture with a mustache? Since you are a woman. Just Wondering?"
Stripe is my loyal pet cat of 20 years who is pretty much with me all the time, day in and day out now that I work at home. I like Frank Zappa - his music and his art and his poerty, and his whole sense of challeneging conventional social systems and the establishment. (yeah, I guess I'm a hippie or something...) It's really too bad he died because the music world lost a great composer and artist. That, and it was the only real-looking thing on the avatar choices(isn't that what the little picutres are called ?) Nothing mysterious about the robes or dark hair or moustache - and I have never wanted to be a man, either, if you were going there, because I hear enough about that in real life because of my real name, which is (now removed by Stripe)
-
On 2005-12-02 13:10:00, Stripe wrote:
"Landyh,
Regardless of why or how you came back there, which round, after all these years, was the most helpful to you ? Which was the most damaging? I'm just curious. If that's a question you prefer not to answer, or can't answer right now, I understand. I know my position on the seed has changed over the course of my life.
"
No problem answering that. The Seed that existed on 3rd avenue was a place of love and acceptance. The "love ya's" at least felt real not rote responses. I don't remember anything feeling forced but more like suggestions. People that were there then came of ther own volition. I felt the people there had real feelings and concerns for me and I for them. It was a smaller group and Art was not at all secluded. He was funny, charismatic to be sure but caring and available. On a mission to be sure but not at all full of himself then. St Rd 84 was different. Too big. Art was isolated from the group by his staff. I felt like although they would have liked to have made you think they were just protecting him so he would have time for the bigger picture they really just wanted to protect there own place in his clique. Keeping others out as if they were afraid it might threaten there own position. I don't know if the changes were evolutionary in nature or the result of growing faster than they could manage. That it was no longer voluntary for the vast majority of us is probably the worst of the changes. It is one thing to submit yourself to rigorous self honesty to save yourself quite another to be broken to the point that your willing to say anything to get out. I don't blame the seed for the problems I was to have later in either case but as to which was more helpful to me I can answer that. My first time was positive and even beneficial though not a cure all for what was really going on. The second time was not like that at all excepting that I did get away from drugs for a while subsequently and i needed to. I felt like I gave up a little piece of myself to do it. i believe the methodological changes that had taken place in the time between my experiences were damaging in some sense. Reflected here maybe in the way I go back and forth on how i feel about the overall experience. Perhaps why I can see and even take both sides of an issue even today without being able to plant myself firmly on either side. There is a good side to that I know and this duality is deeply rooted in how I percieve things even now but sometimes I wish I could see things in black and white as so many here seem to be able to do. There would come a certain peace in being convinced of the infalliability of my own perceptions I suspect. One that at least to this point in my life I have never known. This ability to see both sides does help in its own way. It makes me a fair negotiator and mediator when that is called for and I think at times allows me to provide a calming influence in certain situations. i hope that answered your question.
-
On 2005-12-01 22:06:00, someone wrote:
"Hi John,
I know that my life would not be what it is today if I had not learned the things I did at The Seed. It's a shame that Greg and many others missed the point.
No, its a shame you deny the evidence right in front of you that you were involved in a destructive mind cult.
but welcome to the forum!
-
On 2005-12-02 13:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How did you come up with stripe? Why an Arabian type man picture with a mustache? Since you are a woman. Just Wondering?"
enough of this. It is one thing to joke with someone, but you are "trolling" this same comment over and over to disrupt what she is saying. That is unfair.
-
On 2005-12-02 13:50:00, cleveland wrote:
"In response to the initial post by "someone:"
I am sure I knew you, at SR 84. Funny to think that, since you are posting anonymously - as to me, I am 'Wally' of course...
I agree with 98% of what you said in your post. But the 2% that I don't agree with is like the difference between night and day.
I was a 'volunteer' too, but not like any kind of volunteer I had ever been before or since. I 'volunteered' at the Seed by giving up every other important relationship in my life up to then, by pledging total allegience to the group, and by denying my basic individuality. The Seed expected, and got, total adherence to its rules, customs, and beliefs, and any dissent that I had within me was kept deep inside. The only other relationship in which I yield so much of myself would be my wife, but from time to time I even disagree with her :wink:
Also, the reason why I read this site and think about it a lot is not because I live in the past, but because A. it was 7 years of my life B. it was like nothing else I have experienced C. I want to understand what it means to me and to our culture about addiction, power, friendship, etc. What could be more important?
So yes, I will read here and post here, struggling to find out what I experienced, and trying to form a response to what the Seed. addiction, family and friendship are all about.
What I DON'T understand is all those who went thru the Seed experience and either can't or won't think critically about it. Telling people to 'get over it' is a huge cop out - what do you care if people want to think/talk about this? It is still relevent.
Finally, there are hundreds of Seed copy-cat programs all over the world. The Seed may have closed but it has a legacy, for better or worse. Do you have children? Would you put them in Kids Helping Kids or any number of programs like that?
Finally - love ya...I still feel a real connection to the Seed and people I met there, even though most of them will never talk to me! I am happily, a fuck-up and drop out of the program!"
No kidding! Wasn't there a girl named Wally or maybe it was a nickname at one time. Long dark hair or am I just having a flashback.
-
The Seed sure screwed up your life ! :wink:
TRUCKER
-
Greg - Stripe explained and I appreciate it. I can now understand more of where she is comming from. So Greg try not to get your panties in a wad over no big deal.
Love Ya.
-
Love Ya."
backatcha babe.....muah!
:grin:
-
On 2005-12-03 04:27:00, TRUCKER wrote:
"The Seed sure screwed up your life ! :wink:
TRUCKER "
Non sequitur. Someone can certainly have a negative childhood experience and not have their entire life screwed up as a result.
Why did you post this? I mean, what is the intention exactly?
-
On 2005-12-02 16:30:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2005-12-02 13:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How did you come up with stripe? Why an Arabian type man picture with a mustache? Since you are a woman. Just Wondering?"
enough of this. It is one thing to joke with someone, but you are "trolling" this same comment over and over to disrupt what she is saying. That is unfair.
"
Hey Greg,
It's okay. I took the bait and answered the questions truthfully because.....I'M MAN ENOUGH TO DO IT..
heheheheh :grin:
Check this out: We also refer to the original Stripe as the Ass-cat when he won't stop yowling and meowing no matter how many times he gets squirted with the water bottle. They say people are like their pets and I guess there might be some truth to that... :razz:
-
:grin:
Heres one for you too Frank..er... Stripe!
Muah!
-
On 2005-12-02 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you sure you would not have been that way anyway? I'm not being a jerk. I'm being honest.
Some people want to blame someone for everything instead of accepting the responsibility on their own."
That might be a reasonable theory to explore. But once you start exploring, it looks less and less like coincidence. Not just Seed people, but so damned many of us who have been through confrontational tc style (synanon based) programs report the same issues. It's like the way so many people have similar dreams about highschool; usually they're in class under some especially stressful situation when they realize they're naked or somehow unprepared and about to make an ass of themselves.
If it were just a few people or they had these dreams with a number of different backdrops (people do have them about the workplace sometimes, but you don't hear as much about that) why then you could write it off as unrelated. But the fact that so damned many people have essentially the same type of anxiety response to the classroom strongly suggests that it's something more to do with the classroom setting, less to do with the individuals.
Same thing here. If you really want to know then go look at some of the other forums and see what people have to say. If you don't really want to know, but just want to convince yourself that this is entirely dismissable, then by all means don't read anything or talk to anyone who would know. One very effective way to maintain that sort of illusion is to simply say "Sorry, I can't talk to you" or, better, "I don't choose to talk to you." Contempt prior to investigation, works every time! We should find a way to bottle that shit up for sale!
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous