Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 22, 2005, 01:26:00 PM
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For those who offer that as the solution to reconciling oneself past involvement in The Seed, can you please explain to me how exactly you all have gotten over it? What did you do? Are the coping techniqes you employ yours or are they something learned from some other program, religion or philosophy? Is it like the death greiving process?
I am just really curious as to what people mean when they write that. I'd really like to know if there is actually any substance to that statement or if it's just another way to NOT examine the total experiece.
Being in there killed a part of me and I have lived with a big hole and missing time for good deal of my life. "Get over it" seems such a trite response to a very personal loss.
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I think "get over it" in general means "I don't want to talk about it" or "your feelings about this subject aren't valid".
I am not saying just this forum, but in general terms. My ex wife was fond of that saying and it almost always pissed me off.
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I can tell you how I was able to begin "getting over it" (for lack of a better term). First, my education saved my ass. I am so grateful to my sister who literally almost forced me to take a college class, in about 1985, when I decided to move away from the seed for the first time and only time (only for 6 months). During the time that I decided to move away and go to school, I was treated as a suspect character. Anytime I visited the group while I lived away from them, staff certainly helped me feel like I was screwed up for deciding to do my own thing. I visited the beach outings on the weekends or simply tried to come into the group, and it never failed that they would make me feel as if I was doing somthing terribly wrong, when in fact, I was waking up to the world in one of the most powerful ways, which was for the first time starting to realize that I was an intelligent, creative nad passionate human being that loved learning, despite staff's attempts to keep me from not wanting to go to school. As we all know knowledge is power, and they were sure scared of anyone getting even a bit of that power. It was only when I decided to come back 6 months later, that I was treated better, but staff and art were not thrilled (and they showed it to me in their cold looks and shoulders) with the idea that I had decided to continue in school and was actually doing well in college. I returned to the seed because I was afraid to make it out there on my own. Also, I could not get rid of the pit in my stomach that constantly haunted me as if I had been a traitor to staff and art. At the time I did not associate the stomach cramps with cult withdrawl syndrome, but after reading Combatting Mind Control by Hassan http://www.freedomofmind.com (http://www.freedomofmind.com), years later, I realized it was the psychlogical effects of group withdrawl that I was suffering. I thought my body was telling me that I had done the wrong thing by moving away from the seed. Although I re-committed myself for the long haul, I never stopped going to school since I knew that it was the only thing they could not touch and at least I was gaining freedom in the pricay of my own mind. I later went through graduate school, and they gve up on trying to onvince me that an education was a waste of time. So my sister opened the doors for something I was really unprepared to understand when I was younger since I believed the line in the group that school was not important and only a few "select seed kids" who just "knew" what they were meant to be, ususally a doctor, lawyer, or President of the U.S. should go to school since a liberal education was a worth nothing and it usually was a way of becoming "an intelelctual idiot like so many assholes out there." Although I was trapped in their ignorant ways for many years, I must admit that when everything crumbled I knew who I was because I realized that for a long time I had been able to see through them , not them through me, I was justa always scared to take a real close look at how much help they needed to improve who they were as human beings. I guess there is soemthing to say for learning to think critically as a result of reading and writing. There are more ways that I began to "get over it," but I would say that my education has been one of the most important tools for overcoming the drama of "uneducated" people.
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Thanks for the thoughful replies to my question. I'll tell you what, I always get real offended when I hear that phrase. As words go, these operate as a very quick way to cut off all communication. And it's so condescending. I guess it does usually have the intended effect.
I'll check out that link, too.
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On 2005-06-22 13:16:00, 80's Guy wrote:
I was an intelligent, creative nad passionate human being
Hey, I never knew that! I'm passionate about nads too! Small world! :rofl:
[sorry, couldn't resist.....]I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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I have to agree w/ you, `80's guy. I 'got over it' when I quit thinking about the whole ordeal so much and just went about my life.
To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others; to leave the world a little better; whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is the meaning of success.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Just curious Anon, What part of you died while you were at the Seed? How were you changed at the Seed? Please elaborate if you will.
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Ginger.....a nad passionate human!
Bill is a lucky guy.
:grin:
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There is no such thing as 'getting over' anything in life...you grow another layer, but whatever is under that is still there...
I used to hate my father passionately, mostly because I loved him so much and felt so reject...we have a decent relationship now and this morning I got up early and was daydreaming and thought about my dad, now 75 years old, and I felt almost none of the old anger, only love. But the memory of the rage I felt is still there, and it influences me today in ways I probably don't understand.
In order to 'get over' the Seed I had to go back and work on those parts of myself that the Seed had not allowed...
My relationship with my parents
My sexuality (giggle, giggle!)
My sense of shame and insecurity
My politics, morals and spirituality
My relationship with 'substances' (alcohol, cigarettes, grass)
I did therapy. I redead therapy. I read every book I could. I re-integrated with my family. I made friends. I joined Adult Children of Alcoholics. I left it. I sat in an AA meeting. I went to a bar. I decided I was an artist. I travelled alone thru Europe. I made friends, lost them. I got high. I had sex. I fell in love, I got married, I got divorced. I made mistakes. I went to school. I excelled at things, failed at things, tried and rejected things. I lived my life!
I read every book on cults I could find, since there was no Fornits site. I read 'Drama of the Gifted Child' by Alice Miller, about child abuse. I highly recommend 'The Sun' magazine published in Chapel Hill. I do yoga. Whatever!
Oh there's more, and I could bore you, but I am 46 years old and the part of me that 'died' at the Seed was my independence, and that is something I had to rekindle and nurture and grow. The Seed gave me all the answers, ready-made responses and false certainties. On my own I had to reinvent the world for myself...
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Thank you Cleveland for that well thought out response. It is good food for thought. I will need sometime to think about what you posted and see how these things apply to me.
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Obviously, I cannot speak for anyone else, but speaking for myself, I could not agree with you more Cleveland. The authentic growth that I should have made all those years, I have started to really make in the past three years of my life. Luckily, there were many areas of my life in which I did not stop growing at a younger age, such as my career (despite others' attempt to detour me). On one hand, there is something tragically sad about the idea to have waited all these years, but on the other, these have been the best years of my life. I wish I could say the same for living in the midst of group people, but unfortunately I cannot becuase I was not free.
One lesson I have learned, however, is to try to listen better to my heart. For instance, I felt deep inside, when I was 17, that I was allowing them to steal my creativitiy and passion for life. I almost lost these two preciousattributes completely, but Thank God my stubborness kicked in many times during those years and I hung on to what I had gained in my most natural setting before others tried to mold me in the image of "the revolution."
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Thanks for sharing what you did Clevland. I know exactly what you are saying. I never knew who I was a 17yrs old in the seed. I had to cover up all my pain with drugs and drinking. While in the seed, I felt so much fear, humiliation, shame and guilt. Yet I had no outside substance to hide with. I also had a lot of anger- towards my parents for putting me in there, and for all the staff and old commers whom I lived with for 30 days, always telling me what to do. When it came time to write my "moral inventories" every night, I didn't know what the heck to even write. Since the Female staff was right there, I just winged it. I had no idea what feelings were. It wasn't until I went to therapy, and then AA (found out I am not an alcholic), did I begin to feel for the first time in my life. Sure I knew what love, happiness, and sadness felt like, but I had to learn that I was an adult with a childs emotions. I had a wonderful sponsor, and a great group of women who loved me unconditionally. I soak the "real" steps up like a sponge, and grew very fast. Doing all the steps I was very honest with myself and my sponsor. Ya know, the seed came up one time, and my sponsor reminded me that the seed was a part of my past. Not my today, and not my tomorrow. So I learned that "I let go a very long time ago." As I learned, "I let go and let God." I had a spiritual awakening because of the steps, and that is what my life is all about now. How best can I serve God? What is His will, not mine. I now know that living in the past ruins what blessing I may receive today. Even if it is just a smile from a stranger, or the sound of the birds singing. I'm sure you know the saying "keep it simple". That is the best way to live , for me!!
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On 2005-06-23 21:17:00, JaLong wrote:
I had a wonderful sponsor, and a great group of women who loved me unconditionally. I soak the "real" steps up like a sponge, and grew very fast. Doing all the steps I was very honest with myself and my sponsor...So I learned that "I let go a very long time ago." As I learned, "I let go and let God." I had a spiritual awakening...
Thanks Julie, there are many of us who feel what you felt - Robin
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On 2005-06-22 11:48:00, GregFL wrote:
"I think "get over it" in general means "I don't want to talk about it" or "your feelings about this subject aren't valid".
I am not saying just this forum, but in general terms. My ex wife was fond of that saying and it almost always pissed me off.
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You are so off-base Greg...when I said "Get over it" I DID NOT mean "I don't want to talk about it" nor "your feelings about this subject aren't valid". Apparently, this is a "hot button" for you and others, and I hear that...
When I said "Get over it", I don't mean to 'dis ANYONE that is still struggling and working on unpacking their baggage, but rather address those of us who are actively working through whatever the past has dealt us and CHOOSE to look at the glass half full rather than half empty. Know what I mean?
Oh, our little narcissistic problems - "what about me? The "Seed" ruined my life; I'm crippled and can't move on; I'm dysfunctional, and my life is F***ED up because my youth was raped and stripped as I know it and I chose to be a victim.
Know what??? I moved on...I won't even begin to share w/ ya'll how my life spiraled AFTER the Seed. KNOW WHAT?? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO W/ THE SEED!! Go figure, it's all about S**T HAPPENS.
I don't understand - Greg, like you mentioned in an earlier post; we would have experienced the same changes "as adolescents growing up" regardless if we were inducted into the Seed or not. You are correct - just how we process that experience is a matter of strength, skill, will and creativity... Will you CONTINUE TO BE A VICTIM??
-R
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First, I have seen no one post "the seed ruined my life" or "I am crippled I can't move on". Who are you describing here and why?
It certainly didn't ruin mine. I will say it caused me severe problems as a teenager, but I overcame them. I have had a wonderfull life and continue to do so, and I wish the same for everyone here.
Second, The Phrase "get over it" is a conversation stopper. One thing I have learned in life is that it really doesn't matter what you mean when you say something, what is important is how other people take it. That is all. Go back and read my post where I said "in general" and "not in this forum", but understand that that is how I process that statemnt when people say it about anything. After my divorce where my ex wife had just done horrible things to me, if the conversation came up she would always blurt "get over it" . I think the phrase is insensitive, and thanks for the apology.
You say "will you continue to be a victim". Who is this adressed to?
If it is just in general, then perhaps it is good advice because anyone that continues to let their childhood trauma's vicimize them is making a big mistake. But again, throwing this kind of comment out there is a tad bit condenscending to someone who may be re experiencing or working thru some old crap.
I think freeing ourselves from victimization is good. I see evidence of people doing that on this forum. Ease up anon...we are on the same side here. There have been instances, even recently, where I said something inadvertenly that someone took wrong and I went back and apologized. It isn't the end of the world.
Why don't you tell us if the Seed was such a wonderfull experience and saved your life why you spiraled out of control after? what caused this?
your right.."Shit happens", but continuous self destructive behavior usually has anger or self loathing behind it. I know mine did. What caused you to spiral down? How did you pull out of it?
GregFL
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To who ever signed the anon -R most resently, you seem to be taking the "Get over it" stance very well.
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Overlord what Seed did you attend?
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I did not attend a seed, thats why I'm not commenting on seed, I was commenting on said anons talk and additude.
I generally dont post on seed forum, unless to ask for info, but I felt as if I had to say something because of what was said.
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R-
Certainly choosing to be a victim is not the most healthly response to the Seed. But I am not so sure it's really choosing to be a victim. Choosing being the operatie word there. Let me explain what I mean.
I think many people who were put in the seed by well-meaning parents or courts - maybe they don't have the same outlook on the results because they are in fact, still on some emotional or maturity level stuck way back there in the past. I know on some levels that's where I am.
Real addicts who embraced the teachings probably did benefit and their lives were made richer and better by the experience of separating themselves from the evil in the outside world.
But there were many, many others who did not have any physical addictions and did not benefit from that separation. For them is was a very different traumatic experience that stunted growth rather than fostered it. I am one of those.
Traumatic experiences can lock a person into a particular mindset, and sometimes can make a person mentally ill and unable to deal with the real demands of life. And, like me, if the person was unforutnate enough to not be an addict when they were put in there, then it can have really negative effects on psychological development and maturity.
To really simplify it - if a person did not have some form of cancer, even if cancer was believed by everyone to be a theart to society (like drugs were believed to be a systemic problem in our society) - would there be any benefit to forcing chemotherapy or radiation treatments on that person? Would it prevent cancer or would it make the person sick?
Does rehabilitation of a non-existent problem, even when done with the best intentions, mean that the medicine won't hurt?
I have seen that in myself - being stuck and reacting to severe conditions and important life decisions with the very limited perspective of a teenager trying to muddle through life under the mistaken belief that I am a sick person. I say this to explain why I started this thread in the first place - because of my reaction to the whole GET OVER IT comment on another thread.
Yes, it angers me when people say that - it angers me on many levels. I really don't want my ass kicked by strangers and anons for not being a fully evolved person on every level - and perhaps that just more of my persecuted teen perspective leaking through. I am not above reacting to what I perceive as negative stimulus.
I think we all have a purpose in life, a journey to make, and it's quite obvious we all aren't in the same place at the same time. Personally, I think it's a good thing - that's why I posed the question in the first place - to get some concrete, "how to" information. It's so much easier to move forward when you have some kind of road maps.
Someday I will be "over it" and I will be absolutely relieved to know in my heart that I got over it. With luck and perseverence and forgivness and who knows what else, I will be there eventually.
Respectfully,
Stripe
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:tup: :tup:
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On 2005-06-24 07:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"R-
Certainly choosing to be a victim is not the most healthly response to the Seed. But I am not so sure it's really choosing to be a victim. Choosing being the operatie word there. Let me explain what I mean.
Real addicts who embraced the teachings probably did benefit and their lives were made richer and better by the experience of separating themselves from the evil in the outside world.
But there were many, many others who did not have any physical addictions and did not benefit from that separation. For them is was a very different traumatic experience that stunted growth rather than fostered it. I am one of those.
Me too Stripe, me too. On top of losing what little family I had, all my friends and self confidence, what I did was internalize anger and developed extreme problems with authority which led to many more problems for me. I could not even understand why I was that way...it took a long time to sort thru it.
For many years, I refused to even acknowledge it could have been a good experience for anybody because I saw the whole issue of cultic immersion as extremely negative. But there has to be room for contrary experience and I have softened on that position somewhat.. for instance someone who was an addict that got over their addiction in the seed would defintely see the experience from a different perspective than you and I, who were just kids thrust into a personality cult/drug rehab for no real reason. Forcing a 14 year old to abandon all of his ego and identity is generally a bad thing...but a 20 year old heroin addict may think that is a fair trade off. Then again maybe not....
There is no 100% right or wrong. However, I still strongly believe that the Seed and all these synanon type programs cause much more problems than they solve and are generally destructive to the majority of people who experience them.
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I am glad to know that over time my attitude will soften. I guess after spending 30 years trying to figure out what was wrong with me (when there was never really anything wrong other than "bad medicine") well, it does make me resent all of the anguish, lost time and wasted effort. But, the good of it is I finally figured that out just a few months ago.
So, I guess in time I will soften, unlike my girl-moustache which (as you can see) has gotten thicker and stiffer as the years have passed. I used to be a blonde, ya know. Now you can see what bad medicine does to the outside as well as the inside. :grin:
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Another non-Seeder here...
"Getting Over It" is not the same as forgetting about it. If there is one thing veterans of these programs can do it is to speak out about their experiences.
It may go some way toward preventing others from being hurt.
YELL and TELL!
May 12-13: Sowed Hemp at Muddy hole by Swamp. August 7: Began to separate the Male from the Female at Do - rather too late.
George Washington (Diary)
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So, I guess in time I will soften, unlike my girl-moustache
Tell you what, that thing is impressive~
:grin:
Gregfl
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::bigsmilebounce:: ::hehehmm:: ::rocker:: ::mecry:: ::kiss:: ::eek3:: Some of us are over it some are not, some have benefited some feel not, some are crazy some are sane, Where would we all be if we never did go through the Seed? Our hearts know don't they?
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On 2005-06-24 01:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
Oh, our little narcissistic problems - "what about me? The "Seed" ruined my life; I'm crippled and can't move on; I'm dysfunctional, and my life is F***ED up because my youth was raped and stripped as I know it and I chose to be a victim.
Ok, let me make this perfectly clear. Don't worry about me at all. I'm fine. I'm not crippled, I have moved on, I'm not dysfunctional and my life is so good I can't even begin to tell you. I have never chosen to be a victim in my entire life. Every time someone has victimize me, I've chosen to be a tough bitch and make sure it cost them more than they could take from me right up to the point where they figure out it's not worth the trouble and move on. I don't really carry grudges. I only defend myself and my own when necessary.
All that despite the fact that, in my youth, my family became involved w/ a fucked up personality cult. My mom never came out of it, but then she was pretty messed up to begin with. The Program didn't do anything to her but present an oportunity to show her true colors in vibrant and stark clarity.
So, now that I'm over it, having moved on w/ my life to the point where I see the relavence of politics, public policy and such to my own life, I find out that the people who brought us The Seed and Straight, Inc. have done anything BUT move on. In fact, They've been busy as hell! They've made lucrative careers in the public sector out of shoving various aspects of their wonder cure for troubling teenagers into every spending bill and public policy imaginable.
I think my neighbors and fellow tax payors are entitled to know just as much about these sadistic altruists as I do. Can you give me one good reason why I should withhold that information?
The last struggles of a great superstition are very frequently the worst.
--Andrew Dickson White (1832-1918)
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"Where would we all be if we never did go through the Seed? Our hearts know don't they? "
Nah, there's no way to know where you would have ended up. But I can make one sure prediction in response to your post:
Not exchanging ideas on a forum like this.
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On 2005-06-24 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
" :smile: Where would we all be if we never did go through the Seed? Our hearts know don't they? "
alive sane and out of jail is my best guess.
If I had to garner a guess, I think I would have probably gone to medical or veterinary school instead of spending those years lashing out at authority and angry.
But my heart can only surmise...my family was so disfunctional anyway and the Seed only worsened the situation.
(PS..I am glad I never went to medical school because I would be working harder for less money ..maybe the seed did something for me after all :grin: )