Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on September 21, 2004, 06:45:00 PM
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Thought I'd start a thread dedicated to 'success' stories. This one is classic.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000813 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000813)
24 June 04
Our son just graduated. The process was exciting, emotional and warm. But now he is back and while a much nicer human being, he is depressed and reverting to the old consolation of video games. The job that had been lined up for him fell through, Any thoughts?
Anyone have suggestions for a job in NYC?
13 August
I have been reluctant to respond to this question, because I felt so hopeful during my son's graduation this June. I still feel hopeful, but with more concerns.
He did really well at TBS and will be heading to college with a partial scholarship(thank you very much).
He came home with a commitment to work and be physically active.
He father had found him a job but it fell though. He was unwilling to do any brainstorming on what he might want to do. He finally owned up to wanting to have a job that would fall into his lap. He is very angry with his father that the "promised" job fell through (the company might be sold and the friend could not hire for the summer.)
So he spent the first part of the summer reverting to old habits: inactivity, playing video and computer games, reading, hiding in his room, and getting angry and depressed. He takes no ownership. He was lonely and friendless. He blames us- we did not teach how to make friends.
He woke me up one night and told me that he had been banging his head against a wall. Then after talking for a while, suggested I leave before he became suicidal.
Now he is visiting his brother out of town at graduate school. He went for a week and will be there for five, He has not told us when he is coming back but I suspect it will be the week before heading to college. He does not sound depressed now and his anger has subsided. He says he is looking forward to going to college, but resisted doing anything to prepare for it. He finally called his new roommate and bought the book he is supposed to read before arriving. It is much more peaceful when he is not home. I am still hopeful that the structure at college combined with the opporunity to be with folks his age will be positive.
I think my expectations were probably too high. I thought he would keep his commitments. His reversion brought back too many memories, for him as well as us.
20 September
We visited our son who started college on August 28th this Saturday. He was only willing to see us so that he could have access to getting supplies and games at various stores.
[What, no warm welcome?]
He seems in better physical shape (though still upset with his body). He gained twenty pounds during his inactive summer. He is enjoying meeting and being with other students. He does seem reasonably goal focussed. His classes seem to be going reasonably well - better in his strengths and B's and C's in his writing. He seems willing to work on his writing, but unwilling to get assistance. He wants to improve his grammar. He thinks that if he goes to the writing center they will just correct him but not help him to learn for himself.
[Golly Gee, why in the world might he think that? Asking for help may be difficult for him the rest of his life. Contrary to program rhetoric, they do not build trust. They destroy it.]
He said that he had been drinking the night before with other students and that his head hurt. Before he told me this, he asked me to buy him beer for his dorm room. He was not surprised or upset when I said, "No." He told me, not his father, that he was drinking because he was depressed.
[Common and typical complaint of ex program participants]
I suggested that he speak with a therapist. He abruptly said, "No." He was not a substance abuser before his RTC/TBS experience. He was definitely self medicating with video games before he went away two and a half years ago.
[The program didn't modify his 'addictive' behavior? Shocking.]
He is certainly still angry with us (loves us but can't stand to be with us- this fluctuates).
[So much for building closeness and restoring trust between parent and child! They weren't even successful in conditioning him to pretend. I'd demand a refund.]
He had a lot of agreements before he left the TBS.
[NO! "We" might imply that agreements were made. "He" was required to sign a document stating all the things the program and his parents wanted him to do. There is a fundamental difference! And as he has demonstrated, when the fear of consequences is removed, it's obvious that there never were any such 'agreements'. Did the program offer a guarentee?]
He was supposed to be active this summer and visit a therapist when he got to college. One did not happen and the other appears also not to be happening. If we express a suggestion or thought, it is taken as a command not to be followed.
[What, Hundreds of thousands of dollars, and still no happy, engaged, respectful little robot? What DID work? Other than keepng him off the streets, and out of your hair, for 2.5 years?]
I would appreciate any advice, comments and suggestions that you might have.
[Apologize. And mean it. Hope he forgives you. Prepare to spend thousands more undoing the harm they caused.]
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-25 19:15 ][ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-25 21:28 ]
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Part of the reason parents cling to these programs is it makes them no-fault for anything... no matter what.
Don't hold your breath waiting on those idiots to do a damn thing for their son. for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
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http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000369 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000369)
On February 14 she returned home from 1 year at a residential program. She was about to turn 18 and would not stay beyond her birthday. Almost right away it all crept back into her life again.
The same crowd, late nights, skipping school... all of it again. I swore I'd never go through this again but, it's even worse than before. She just doesn't come home at all now. Last week I was out of town at a conference, she approached me right before I was to leave saying that she was going to help her father (who was pretty sick at the time). As soon as I left she was gone for several days. Her father, unable to sleep in her absence trying to recover from a serious infection all alone trying to manage! It's so hard not to feel as though she is doing this "to us". Her younger sisters ages 11 & 13 are confused...we all are. She apparently is staying with her "friend" a high school drop out, and this girl's father, 20 miles from where we live. She is in serious jeopardy of losing her school placement. She claims to love this school, a small alternative high school with a great reputation which took much doing to get funding for it's ~ 43k annual tuition. My greatest fear is HIV and pregnancy. She has a history of extreme sexual behavior. Many times it's been suggested that along with ADHD she has Bi-Polar disorder.
How do we have the tough love approach with someone so incapable of taking care of themselves?
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http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000410 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000410)
My 17 year old daughter who has been home from RTC and TBS since 7/03 was arrested last nite along with 3 others for vandalizing a cemetary. It has been a nightmarish day ending with her release into our custody until the next court date in a week. This already made it into a sizable article in our local newspaper with names and addresses this morning. I feel like I am back at square one after 3 1/2 years. She has focused on the 2 things we asked - no drugs/alcohol and graduating from high school. She's doing well on both fronts. The problem is her poor decisions about her peer group. I am in no way blaming her behavior on others, but when one surrounds themselves with losers, those behaviors are the acceptable ones. She is "in love" with one of her cohorts.....
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Don't forget the kids who commit suicide after they leave the program. Or the ones who kill.
Programs destroy people. It is impossible to expect kids who have been through them to be able to function like a normal person, and these parents expect them to be a successful, problem-free normal person.
And then, of course, they blame it on the child rather than the program.
They sure do need to apologize for what they put their children through.
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Deborah, don't take this as an attack or offense
What exactly are you getting at with these posts?
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As is obvious, they are not success stories. Quiet the contrary. They are stories of failures after a parent has spent thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on a program. And you won't find these 'testimonies' here because the parent is still under the illusion that the program worked, but their kid didn't work the program.
Here's another doosey:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000834 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000834)
1 August 04
Today I brought my son home after 16 mos. at his RTC. We spent a week in Utah doing various activities with the school and then he graduated the program. I am very proud of this new young man we have brought into our lives. Wow! What a difference. (Although his younger sister says his therapy on everyone can be annoying.)
While at this final seminar, we worked a lot on the home transition. And while my son agrees to go slow, I agree to not focus my attention on his every move. We have set boundries that both parties agree to. I'm interested in learning how to relax while he is home. His sister went off to camp as soon as we got back, so it is the two of us for a week.
To all of you who recently sent your children away, it will go fast. Before you know it, you will have them back in your lives on a day to day basis. Learn all you can while they are gone. I think it is key.
11 August
I'm just checking in. My son has been home about 10 days and so far so good. As time goes on, things get better. I'm learning how to relax. Every morning I leave a list of chores and they are finished by the time I get home. He sighs when I say no, but doesn't fight me. He's allowed to go out with friends every other day, but I have to know where he is and talk to the parents at home. He's in by 11 p.m.
13 August
Perhaps I spoke too soon. Yesterday I told him he couldn't go out and at first he was pretty huffy and wouldn't talk to me. All I could think was, oh great, here we go again. But it blew over and he laughed about it. Then the phone kept ringing late into the night. (which I put a stop to) At about 1 a.m. he came to me and asked if we could talk. Several of his friends called who were high. They wanted to know when he could go out with them. They call themselves occassional social pot smokers. He was triggered. He feels pretty lonely and just imagined being with them. And then that scared him. Suddenly he realized how fast he was going to cave in.
16 August
My son, home for two weeks, snuck (sp?) out with a friend last night. He came home from his girlfriend's at 11 p.m. as planned. He woke me up, said good night, etc... For some reason I couldn't sleep so I got up and went to chat with him. He was gone. It had only been minutes, but no child. I called his cell phone and he knew he was in trouble. He came home right away and we talked for a couple of hours. He's has his consequences, he's filled with guilt, he knows I shouldn't trust him, etc... He said he was justifying his actions by trying to explain this was the only time he could see this friend, etc... AHHHHHH!!!! Wow, do I feel betrayed. We did have a great conversation. He is grounded, doing a mountain of house chores, etc... Any advice. I don't know what to think.
1 September
I'm thrilled for all of you. What a long way you have come. I remember being a newbie with you on this board back in Spring/Summer 2003. It seems both like yesterday and a hundred years ago. There was a time when we all doubted what was going on. Today, we both have success stories. I wish you all the best and look forward to more updates as they come.
29 Oct
My son has been home three months. By all accounts he's doing well. I just had a conference at school and they called him a straight A student, one of the best in class, etc... He's coming home before curfew, he's polite, does his chores, more etc... But I have a gut feeling he's getting high. He's recovering from mono and claims he's just tired, but I know better. There's a faint smell and I can just tell by the way he talks and looks.
Drugs were a major problem in my son's past. His father is an alcoholic who made many attempts at recovery and failed every one of them. My son doesn't believe there is an addictive gene, he believes he has the power to control his actions. I want my son off drugs. Any suggestions?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-10-30 10:11 ]
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Deborah - what is your definition of "success?"
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I dont think there are any SUCCESS stories. There are just survival stories. & survival is all about coping with all that has happed to you.
If your going to send your kid to a boarding school, do it... but not a therapeutic one! I', still coping with some issues that the school gave me. It pretty much taught me to be like a clone, and to this day I stll have a hard time thinking for myself.. & believe you me I was never this way before. This is so THEY can have complete a utter control of you so you no longer act like a delinquent /or a Conduct Disordered youth! THEY never knew how much this could actually damage someones head!
Also, they isolate you for 2 years of your precious gowing years. I left home when I was 15yrs old (the age of Elizabeth smart when she was kidnapped) and returned when I was 17 yrs old. That's a long time! You miss out on soOO much of your "real" life! I am still learnig about a lot of regular growing up things that a 23 year old should know NOW!
FOR ALL YOU PARENTS OUT THERE! If you send your kid away to a therapeutic boarding school, you are screwing up their normal developmental process. You are going to emotionally screw them up to! Please trust me!
I know that you don't trust your child right now and you are scared and worried that they are hurting themsleves... but you need to trust and have a little faith in them. If you are a good parent, you gave them enough skills/ love so that they can determine what will kill them and what will not! I say, JUST HAVE FAITH IN YOUR KIDS! I wish mine did. If you are a good parent, then your kid will have a good head on their shoulders!! They are just going through the normal teenage developmental process, the rebellion phase of every adolsecent!
If you still don't believe me!!
I have a BA in psychology and am going for my PHD. Read journal articles! therapeutic boarding schools dont work they just make you kid worse!!! No matter what the statistics say on the schools site. They have to say all of this because this is a marketing tactic, its a business. Group therapy treartments dont work! These treatments DONT WORK they just make your kids WORSE!
Please take what I'm saying to heart.
Thank you.
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Oh yea,
These boarding schools are not a treatment! Your kid will seemed FIXED but the treatment will only work in specialized settings (ex. the therapeutic boarding school). When they come home they will realize that they dont have to be scared anymore and may do things even worse than before, they will just have better was at manipulating you or covering up so that you wont know.
Your kids may seem good in the school but they are puppets on strings. They will not act the same when they get out.
THERE ARE NO SUCCESS STORIES!!! YOUR KIDS ARE NOT FIXED!!!
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Seems to me the treatment is just extreme stress and suffering (torture) to make them obedient and attempting to brainwash with these stupid seminars.
It 'treats' behavior problems, depression, learning disabilities, and anything else, by making them hide their symptoms and obedient.
Its basicaly like trying to paint over rust. You might hide the symptoms but the problem remains. But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
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y eah i hate white people
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What has become of your life that entitles you to criticize and sit in judgment of others all the time?
Nowhere in any of these posting do I see someone talk about a ?fixed child? or the parent?s misconception of how a boarding school was supposed to fix and solve all the family problems.
It reads Just like any other parent giving it their best shot to help a troubled teen. Teens and young adults continue to grow for years. Growing up into an adult is a process. Do you think the parent in this posting should keep a child in a program when it just the normal developmental problems arising?
If not, what exactly is your point to scrutinize these posts?
Does it fluff up your ego because you have an untroubled teen and you are the ?good parent? like no one else can be?
What a mean spirited person you are then.
When you stir up a big nothing like this, you seem to be sad damaged women who cannot get on with her life.
Go scream at your mother and stop acting in such a nasty vindictive way towards others.
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Nihilanthic, remember that not all the kids who wind up in these places have any real psyche issues to begin with. The one common factor is that the parents (the ones who sign the checks) don't like the way the kids are acting. Breaking a (7PM) cerfew, for example, can land a kid in one of these places. Listening to "devile music" can do it.
Sometimes it's like painting over rust. Other times, it's more like spraying roundup on your healthy lawn to eliminate a dandilion.Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
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I can appreciate that these stories and my comments have no value for you. So, move along. You don't have to read them. There may be a parent out there who will benefit from reading them. One, so they don't go into such an arrangement thinking that the program is going to fix the kid and/or build trust or reunite the family. And two, at the VERY LEAST, use them to formulate hard questions to ask before turning their kids over to strangers. Stories such as this miserable failure:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001740 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001740)
21 Jan 02
on jan 10th we woke up early, had car packed and surprised our son and took him to hidden lake academy... we had friends praying he would be cooperative and he fell asleep for 3 hours!!! he was mad and sad the closer we got but no big episodes... after we dropped him off we cried but felt relieved we had done right thing...
after two days at HLA he broke small rule and got 3 days suspension... we talked to him and he didn't like it but let us know he loved us... on friday he got in trouble for small thing again but he hates rules and anyone telling him what to do so he ran away fri. nite and we have no idea where he is ... the school looked, the local sheriff, and we have now hired John villines...
22 Jan
we got a call from our son late last nite PTL!!! he is safe and alive.. he took a bus from atlanta to dallas(we have no clue yet how he got the $$ but one thing i'm learning these kids are resourceful and obviously not scared to try anything)
30 Jan
i posted last week under topic RUNAWAY SON and the last report i gave was i had my son safely sent to wilderness program... well in less than one week he has continually misbehaved , not taken redirection, not responded to peers cues for inappropriate actions, tried to get out of helping peers by buddying up with leaders, grabbed spotlite on himself and then became extremely volatile over small instructions and totally defiant to point of getting in two ex-army rangers faces and threatening to fight them and can they show him some mental toughness, etc... they said he goes from 1-100 in terms of anger in a few seconds...bottom line they said i have 2-3 days to find new program... well they recommended peninsula village, three springs and island view... i talked to sue at PURE foundation and she recommended red rock canyon school or SUWS for short term intervention... my son has not connected with any staff or peers ... they said he has no desire to work on his issues and he said when are my folks gonna get it that i'm gonna do what i want and no one can stop me... i am discouraged, exhausted, we spent tons of $$$ last week just locating and transporting him and now having to start completely over..
5 Feb
we sent our son there [Hidden Lake Academy] one month ago. he had been diagnosed ADD,ODD, and depressed... two days after arriving and not totally knowing all the rules he got 3 days restriction for taking a bag of chips to dorm room- found out they only get 2 meals on sun. and he was hungry... he was isolated and had to do work duty- shoveling rocks up a hill...2 days after that restriction he received 1st letter from home and was reading it during group... was told to put it up 4x cause it rudely distracted group and was given 4 days of work restrictions and isolation... we were encouraged by staff to totally back them and did although felt in both incidents punishment was a little severe so to speak for the crime ..(hand book informed us for small offences they had time out or zaps- a run around the lake- neither of which he got....[parent manual also stated that a kid would be sent to pre-wilderness, and wilderness would be last effort. Not the case, after they opened their own wilderness program. When confronted, they changed that page in the parent manual to state that referrals to wilderness would happen at their discretion. What parents don?t understand is that excessive consequences for minor infractions is the standard MO. It?s part of the conditioning.] bottom line he ran away that nite and we were called AND ASSURED IS COMMON BUT THEY FIND 80%VERY QUICKLY AND THEY DON'T GO FAR... WE FOUND OUR SON 1000 MILES AWAY 4 DAYS LATER
28 Nov
we placed our son in a TBS the 1st week of jan and long story short we had 4 failed placements in 5 months that he either ran away from or was asked to leave-we finally found a wilderness program in late may that he successfully completed and he immediately went on to a RTC and has been there 5 months now. we are cautiously optimistic as we see him slowly but surely progressing, making positive, consistent changes but the best is seeing and spending a few days with him in late oct and recognizing his entire countenance is different -instead of a haughty, angry , in your face , i dont give a -attitude-he is easygoing,clear-headed,confident, courteous, grateful, and most of all at peace with himself and a joy to be with- you talk about a miracle!!!!
8 Jan 03
son started at a RTC on jun 20th and has finally gone straight uphill with only a few minor setbacks- he has just made it to top level of his program with major hard work and therapy and as the counselors best phrased it he is kicking b*** and really owning full responsibility of his past problems and looking to make a successful future for himself. we went and spent 5 days over the holidays with him and it was by far the best time we have ever had- he is NOW polite, courteous, grateful, fun-loving, considerate, respectful, and most important exudes a peaceful composure -- none of these characteristics were ever there before- in fact i compared pics of him from last christmas and his countenance and face do not even look like the same kid... it was truly the best christmas gift to see these programs can work and give these teens a second chance at life-people who know our son say it is a miraculous change...
18 Dec 03
our son(now 18 1/2) went away in jan 2002 to his 1st tbs and by may 2002 had run away or gotten dismissed from 4 programs- he then went to a wilderness where he finally chose to work on his issues and quit struggling and went on a month later to a fantastic rtc in utah for the following 9 months. he graduated in late mar 2003 and was truly a different kid- to ALL around him- teachers, peers, family, etc... he could have been poster boy for recovery- he was happy, at peace with himself, honest, grateful and ready to start anew- he came home - finished his 11th grade year by correspondence courses, made new healthy friends, had an incredible girlfriend( he even went and told her family his past and asked her dad's permission to date her!!!); had parttime job;etc... it was such a joy to see him enjoy a clean life and discover the fun you can have as a teenager just hanging out.he was miraculously accepted his sr year into a college prep boarding school 2 hrs away( he did not want to go near his old public high school and none of the local private schools would accept an incoming senior so this seemed to be a God-send. he left in late july to play football and stared school a month later- after about 5 weeks he was barely getting any playtime in the sport he adored and that was a huge disappointment; his grades were rapidly going down-it is extremely tough but everyone thought he was capable... he was initially making a stand on his sobriety but of course not a popular one and he told us most teens don't have a clue about what its like to daily struggle with addiction... he still was in touch with a therapist and talking openly with us and all seemed ok..when he came home thanksgiving he had been on academic probation for 6 weeks but was slowly pulling up some grades.
we drug tested him and it was negative but in my guts i believe he took something to mask it... i found bottle of alcohol that he said he had bought for a friend.. i let him know i did NOT buy that. he said it hurts me for you to think i am a failure and have not changed-i would never be so stupid to let that ruin my life again or the relationship we have fought so hard to attain- i have lost too many friends to effects of drugs or alcohol-and though i cannot promise you i will never take a drink - i will NEVER be so stupid as to get kicked out of school over a bottle of alcohol;etc... to wrap this up- exactly 2 weeks later that is exactly what happened- this past sun the school had reason to perform room search and he was caught and immediately dismissed with 3 days of exams left... we lost a years worth of tuition and most likely he will only get 2 credits to transfer.we had warned him since returning repeatedly what consequences would be if this happened .. main thing being we refuse to live in chaos again, with lies, manipulation and active using so he spent 1st night at a rescue mission and monday we found a type of halfway house for him. tues he found a job and a bike ( we took his truck and cell phone - another addiction he had made almost 4000 minutes of calls this past month!!!!)He claims he wants to finish hi school and get a degree but he is furious with us for practicing tough love...
we are slowly finding out that unfortunately this was not an isolated event- have found notes, messages etc. letting us realize he has definitely relapsed. also, there is no remorse or repentance just regret he got caught and is being held accountable- he is furious with me (which i know means he is furious with himself but can't go there yet)... he is now in safe, supportive,drug free environment- is daily going to 12 step mtgs, got a sponsor yesterday, gone to work 3 days in a row, and is saving $$$ to finish high school next semester so things could be worse- in the past his pattern was to run away and that has not happened-YET!!!this is the hardest thing as a parent i have ever done but we told him for over 2 years this is what would happen after all the failed placements, run away escapades, etc... so it is not a complete surprise to him at all- i just don't think he truly believed we would do it and while he was a minor i swore i would get him every bit of help, treatment and tools to stay sober but when he turned 18 he would have to face the consequences of his deliberate bad choices- we saw a few warnings and offered help several times but he adamantly refused and said there was not a problem...
24 Dec (Last post)
its 4 in the am and we just got another few blows- our son was in a halfway house since last tues but got kicked out last fri for supposedly diluting a drug test(they said he could have just drank a lot of water naturally but even so they had to release him for 3 days )-he had a job, was going to 12 step mtgs daily, had a sponsor -and according to him was staying clean and was starting to hit bottom and take personal responsibility... went to live with sponsor over weekend and tried to go back to house on mon( they voted and 1 guy said no so he could not return)... found another house that would take him on tues and was starting to meet sober friends- even found a small high school for recovering kids- awesome... Unfortunately, the new place to live was further away and he was going to be inconvenienced and have to ride the city bus, etc so things were not cushy enough- he got a calling card and made some calls and found a girl-an enabler and rescuer -from his old boarding school he was dismissed from a week ago that convinced her folks to take him in.. so without our knowledge he left his job without notification, boarded a bus this afternoon(THe girls mom wired him the $) and he left and went over 600 miles to start a new life... he will be living on a remote farm in community of only 1200 people- he gets restless in a city of over 1/2 million!!!!talk about the story of the prodigal son who left and went miles away to work on a farm- they run a plant nursery and he will work for them- i called the mom at 1 am tonite and she was buying in to his story and felt no parental obligation since he is 18 to even let us know - she has sent her daughter 500 miles away to this prestigous boarding school because they value education so dearly.(she will be returning in 10 days ).. yet when i told her everyone including his sponsor and addicts he was living with felt he should get his degree (only has 4 months to go and is extremely bright and intelligent) she had no problem with him living with her and just getting a GED... i am so hurt and devastated-it is christmas eve and our daughters are once again in the middle of chaos- so i know we must go on and be strong for their sake but it is so hard-2 years ago tonite we had police searching our neighborhood for him after one of his numerous runaway escapades... his problem is not so much the alcohol or drugs- it is avoiding himself and not wanting to live life on lifes terms and come under authority and accountability...
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his problem is not so much the alcohol or drugs- it is avoiding himself and not wanting to live life on lifes terms and come under authority and accountability...
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Translation: his problem is not so much the alcohol or the drugs- it is not submitting to the control of his over-bearing parents and not wanting to live life on our terms and come under our complete authority...
Sad.
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That's how I read it. It's been almost a year since this parent posted. It would be good to know how this young man did in the country. I tend to think (hope) that he did fairly well, since I think his mom would have posted anything negative to further support her position. Instead, it appears that she dropped off the board after that last post.
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he is furious with me (which i know means he is furious with himself but can't go there yet).
No, it means he's furious w/ you, ma. I would be too. So glad to hear he was able hook up w/ a friend w/ a supportive and understanding family. Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? ... If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
-- Patrick Henry
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What's saddest about this is the parents who think their bipolar teen's sexual behavior is going to be "fixed" by some inpatient facility.
It won't.
70% of bipolars are "hypersexual." They're going to have a high sex drive even on medication, and they're going to act on it.
The "best" you can hope for is "safe" sex in a monogamous relationship. A bipolar who's part of that 70% just is NOT going to be celibate.
Since a lot of parents won't accept any behavior *but* celibacy from their teens, they're ill-equipped to cope with the disease.
It's *normal* for biological adults to have sex. You can't stop *normal* human fundamental drives without doing something damned abnormal to the human.
Dumbasses.
Grow a brain. Hand the kid a pack of condoms and encourage him/her to confine getting his/her sexual "fix" from one or a very few close friends.
Accept that there is a wide range of human behavior that is out there that isn't destructive, and that if you have a bipolar teen, your teen *very* likely *will* be sexually active no matter what you do, even on perfectly managed medication.
Trying to avoid HIV and pregnancy by getting your bipolar teen to avoid sex is about as likely to be successful as trying to get your cat to stop licking it's fur. It ain't gonna happen.
It's not "sex addiction"---It's bipolar disorder, and it's *NOT* curable. By anything. And the effective treatments do *not* reduce sex drive to average---maybe to the high side of normal.
I wonder how many of these kids get shipped off because the parents are too fucking immature to realize that teenagers have gonads and are going to use them? Particularly if your particular teen has a sex drive on the high side of the bell curve---as he/she very likely will if he/she is bipolar.
And then they say, "Little Johnny is obviously still angry with us."
Well, D'oh!!!!! No shit, Sherlock.
The desire of a healthy human being past puberty to have sex is not pathological, it's psychologically and biologically not only *normal*, but essential.
What, a third to half of teens are sexually active? If your teen has a high sex drive, guess which third (or half) he/she is going to be in?
Ratchenfrackenfrickenfracken stupid effing Puritans.......
Timoclea
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hahahaha!!!! :rofl: :rofl:
I'll openly admit right now that the only reason I'm a virgin at 19 is because I have aspurgers syndrome, and thus shitty social skills and can't get laid.
I've had arguements with people who think they should teach kids its wrong to masturbate in highschool, a few of the students were puritans of a sort and I had a sparring match in a class a few times.
Parents it seems are just sooo terrified of their kids growing up and having a normal libido, and they *PUNISH* or *HIT!!* their kid if they explore. Its soooo sad, and it could really mess them up in the future. Shame issues about that (or anything) are horrible for your self esteem.
My parents were open and accepting, just don't talk about it much, and I really don't need to... I had friends to learn from. One thing that did impress me is my friends family is very open about everything and doesn't hide anything from their kids. I wish more were like that.
Its pretty refreshing to see my friends 12 year old sis who actually accepts herself and whats going on with her body instead of being sooo ashamed about it. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous
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This is in reply to what this person said:
"What has become of your life that entitles you to criticize and sit in judgment of others all the time?
Nowhere in any of these posting do I see someone talk about a ?fixed child? or the parent?s misconception of how a boarding school was supposed to fix and solve all the family problems.
It reads Just like any other parent giving it their best shot to help a troubled teen. Teens and young adults continue to grow for years. Growing up into an adult is a process. Do you think the parent in this posting should keep a child in a program when it just the normal developmental problems arising?
If not, what exactly is your point to scrutinize these posts?
Does it fluff up your ego because you have an untroubled teen and you are the ?good parent? like no one else can be?
What a mean spirited person you are then.
When you stir up a big nothing like this, you seem to be sad damaged women who cannot get on with her life.
Go scream at your mother and stop acting in such a nasty vindictive way towards others.
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I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say! Or maybe I am misunderstanding you.
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I am not a parent. I am a former student of one of these types of schools and know 1st hand how it can damage someone!
But I do believe that parents that send thier kids to these type of schools believe that their kids will come out "fixed" or "normal", or whatever thay want to call it! They are disappointed when their kids, after spending all that money, are not the way that they thought they would be (this is just placing their standards & expectations of how their child is supposed to be onto their child - AND not respecting who their child is as who they really are)!!! My point of saying this is so that parents out there who are reading these posts DO NOT send their kids to these types of schools! How do I know this will happen, I hear it from my parents to this day!
I do believe that my parents BELIEVED that they had no other option, but they should of trusted in me. That I was just developing and growing, going through that "rebellion stage".
And No - I don't think that a parent should keep their kid in these kind of boarding schools! I hate them and believ that they create more problems in kids!
BOTTOM LINE:
Dont send you kids to these type of schools!
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Funny, one of the posts I left out (for brevity) was the mom telling how she was on Wellbutin to ease her depression and increase her libido. :lol:
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On 2004-09-26 15:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
It reads Just like any other parent giving it their best shot to help a troubled teen.
Yeah, except for the part about 4 different gulags followed by disowning the kid. :eek: And then bragging about it to her fellow hategroup members on the net.
I'm sincerley not sure if you understand or not, but that's only normal for Program parents. To the rest of the world--including, apparently, Mexico, Costa Rica and the Czeck Republic--it's a pretty horrific story.
You should read about Francis Farmer. Then maybe you'll begin to understand. Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2004-09-26 20:07:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Funny, one of the posts I left out (for brevity) was the mom telling how she was on Wellbutin to ease her depression and increase her libido. :lol: "
Different meds affect different people different ways. But I've known a lot of other bipolars, and they may get more self-control and discretion about their sexual behavior when they (we) are on their meds, but expecting celibacy is a fool's dream.
Bipolars sexualize early. Locking them up is a little extreme when a box or two of condoms and some good advice about picking their partners would do just fine at controlling the long-term real risks of HIV or pregnancy.
I get as hacked off when I hear people talk about "sex addiction" as I do when I hear people talk about "food addiction"---and I wonder how long it will be before people start talking about water, clothing, shelter, and breathing "addictions."
Or hand washing or lock checking "addictions" for that matter. Or gambling "addictions."
OCD behavior and addiction are two different things that have a few things in common, but you just can't *reasonably* deal with self-destructive food or sex behaviors the way you deal with alcohol or cocaine abuse.
And it's stupid to try, IMAO.
Deal with the anxiety underlying the OCD behavior, and the food or sex drifts back closer to normal bounds.
But trying to get a bipolar kid to be celibate is like trying to teach a seahorse to abstain from swimming.
I still can't get my head around it that in this day and age if your teenage daughter, over the age of consent, is screwing her boyfriend you can legally ship her off to be immured in a convent so long as it calls itself a "school."
It's like something out of the dark ages.
I don't think it should be allowed. If the kid is over the age of consent in her home state, she's over the age of consent, and that should be that.
Timoclea
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Timoclea, I know a friend who as beaten because her mom caught her masturbating.
The problem is society itself and these held-over 'morals' from times past that need to just be gone.
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The problem is that some parents are abusive whackos who are good at picking out excuses for why it's a Good Thing for them to abuse their kids.
I don't believe the Al Qaeda terrorists are terrorists because they're religious fanatics. I believe they're religious fanatics because they want to murder and torture people and religion gives them an excuse.
I don't believe the child you describe got beaten because her mom was such a good religious person. I believe she got beaten because Mom was a brute, and being "religious" gave her the opportunity to be brutal and over-controlling.
It's a little like the anti-pornography crusaders who of course have to spend a lot of time looking at all this absolutely horrendous pornography, all out of the best of motives I'm sure.
Yeah, I'm sure.
What we need to do is quit letting people make excuses of any kind for brutalizing others.
Timoclea
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Another diary of disappointment. Interesting how so many program parents have the same story. Divorced, remarried, gotta get the kid out of the house to save the marriage.... the thing programs seem to be most successful at.
From Hyde to Aspen to ASR...and still not 'fixed'.
If you get bored with the redundant details of the story, scroll down to see the final outcome, 4 years after the fact.
8 Nov 2000
My son just finished at Aspen Wilderness program, and I'd be happy to answer questions or join in discussions about it. I think threads about particular places might make things a little easier around here.
He had a good experience overall, and I was really happy with his therapist, and several other aspects of the program. Our graduation was really tough, however, since we parents were OUT OF SHAPE & UNPREPARED FOR A SNOWSTORM at 8,000+ ft. ALTITUDE & ONLY TARPS FOR SHELTER...MORE UNDERSTANDING & BETTER COMMUNICATION FROM SOME OF THE STAFF WOULD HAVE MADE IT A MORE PRODUCTIVE TIME, AS FOR MOST OF US BATTLING THE ELEMENTS INTERFERED WITH OUR ABILITY TO FOCUS ON THE EMOTIONAL WORK WE WANTED AND NEEDED TO DO. I certainly was disabused of any lingering romantic notions of my child camping out in the beautiful wilds....
[Gee, did she ever stop to think about how the kids do any 'emotional work' in subzero temps? As I have said, the parent needs to be right along side the kid throughout the program!!]
8 Nov I think it's a good idea to have threads for specific places. My son's just entered Swift River & I'd be interested to hear from other ASR parents or alumni.
A question for us is where will our son go afterwards - he'll get out in March of 2002 and will be 16 then.
12 Nov
Last June we enrolled him at Hyde School in CT, but after their 1 month summer program for new kids they told us he should do a wilderness program before returning to Hyde in the fall. I had TWO DAYS to decide!!! (This is because they don't reccommend bringing your child home between programs).
I chose Aspen, and my schedule, based a lot of my decision on the voices over the phone. They sounded compassionate, intelligent & sensible. I still would go with that assessmant.
During his second month at Aspen his therapist reccommended that we look into a TBS instead of Hyde, which he felt wasn't structured enough for my son. Also, my son said he knew he could obtain drugs there and wasn't yet real firm in his desire for sobriety, though he did make a lot of progress in that direction at Aspen. Hyde agreed that an interim placement was a good idea. SO once again I scrambled, and chose Academy at Swift River. It was the only reccommended school close enough for me to visit.....but also I again had a good impression from phone contacts, and heard several people here speak well of the school. Also, it's owned by Aspen so the transition would be easier.
I have my life back now. My husband has his life back now. My son is beginning to make changes he needs to make. I hope we will be together as a family again, but his very life depends on a process of change that I could not have jump started and carried through to completion my self. I'm very grateful to these programs and all their dedicated staff.
15 Nov Son went to Hyde summer program, sent to Aspen Wilderness, now at Swift River. We won't see him again til next March.
Even so, we will have a lot to be thankful for this Thanksgving: a new beginning for all of us, wonderful professionals who are working with our son, and frankly, peace and quiet at home. Things you and your family deserve too.
20 Nov
We drove home & he had one day only - at 6AM the next day I took him to the airport & put him on a plane by himself. (Incidently, on the one day home he seemed to be acting fine, wasn't difficult, but later I found out he stole $400.00 from my ch. acct. & bought pot, some of which was stashed in a trophy in his room.)
24 Nov
My son stayed at Aspen Ranch for a month recently, but his wasn't at all at typical stay. He was enrolled for AAA (wilderness program) but their Dr. found hernia & he had to have surgery on it before he could begin the program. We decided to have the surgery done out there and he was allowed to reuperate at the ranch. He was terribly bored, but he wasn't really involved and couldn't fully participate. When I visited I had a somewhat negative impression in that the staff seemed disorganized & communications weren't smooth. I believe they were experiencing a staff turnover at the time (August), but the previous poster can tell you about that.
26 Nov
My son has been away since early July in a series of programs (was home 1 day & I did see him 3 times) and now he's at ASR, where, because of the time he entered, he won't have a visit from us til March, and months after that before he comes home. It seems so weird and unfair now - I can't talk to him either, and he hasn't written. I think it goes too far, this restrictiveness.
7 Dec
Hard as it undoubtedly is right now, be glad you have this place, at least! My son was also dx ADHD & has been on Adderall a long time.
26 Dec
Now my son's at Academy at Swift River, a tbs. He's doing very well, and already, AFTER ABOUT 5 MONTHE OF PROGRAMS HE'S ON THE ROAD TO A REAL TURN AROUND.
17 Jan 2001
Somehow her expressions while she was going down into a drug/sex situation reminded me of myself many years ago. I didn't use drugs other than the occaissional joint, but I recognized the need to totally lose oneself into a destructive activity in order to keep pain at bay. That adolescent angst, the emptiness, and the rush to fill that void with some intense experience. Very dangerous.
There are her parents, sitting there amidst all the other addicts, and her father's saying that he's "here to listen and learn", as I remember.
What's the use unless Dad & Mom are ready to set their agendas aside and listen?
26 Feb
My son had a mysterious kidney ailment at ASR; they think it was something called iGa nephropathy, and luckily it just resolved itself. The nurses were great, and I even got to go see him for a day.
17 Mar
I wonder if anyone can help me understand my sons abandonment feelings.
His therapist told me he felt his father had abandoned him at age 4, when we divorced. I was the one who initiated the divorce; my son knows that, and his father did try hard in the beginning to keep their relationship going. Over time (son is 15 now) it faltered, on both sides.
I remarried (right away) and my husband (whose parents actually did physically abandon him at age 3) has had a very tough time getting along with my son - and vice versa.
Incidently, no attachment issues that I've noticed. Dx ADHD in 3rd grade and ODD more recently. Is said to have "boundary issues" as well, e.g. he gets too intimate too quickly with girls.
27 July
I spoke briefly to an admissions person at Oakwood Friends, which seems like a wonderful school. But he said in no uncertain terms that they "WOULD NEED TO SEE A FULL YEAR OF SUCCESS AT A DIFFERENT 'MAINSTREAM' BOARDING SCHOOL" BEFORE THEY WOULD CONSIDER ANYONE FROM A TBS. ANother place in this area that's a great school is Millbrook, BUT THEY TOO WANT TO SEE SUCCESS ELSWHERE FIRST. On top of all this, my son's talking about wanting to be home rather than at a boarding school. I can understand his desire for a more normal existence - he's been in one program or another for over a year - but oh boy, the thought of his going to the local High School is scary!
13 Aug
Oh, I wish this was simpler! ASR SAYS HE WOULD BE BETTER OFF NOT LIVING AT HOME AND GOING TO THE LOCAL SCHOOL, but it's so incredibly expensive. We're doing this on an inheritence that has to stretch well beyond his education.
My husband and son have had a terribly hard time getting along, and for a good 4 years at least we had not a peaceful moment as a family. I don't know how we stayed together....so we didn't get around to many deep conversations, and still need to do more there.
ALso, MAKE GOOD USE OF THIS TIME FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY. If there are siblings, they can get more attention now. IF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND GOT OFF TRACK FROM ALL THE STRESS (MINE ALMOST ENDED), YOU CAN PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THAT, FINALLY. AND YOU CAN STEP BACK AND GIVE YOURSELF SOME ENERGY. MY HUSBAND & I HAVE SEEN OUR MARRIAGE HUGELY IMPROVED, and I've been able to devote time to therapy myself (like not going in to a session only to talk about my son, for instance).
[So, is this what programs are most successful at? Saving marriages?]
10 Nov
Many of us (and I too had a 15 yr old who was stealing $$ from me for pot, even though he sold it as well, and failed 9th grade, and was horribly, sometimes violently oppositional at home) - many of us have found that in order to clear the decks we needed to get our child out of the house for a time. This radical change of environment, be it Wilderness, TBS, RTC, etc., provides a wake up call for the kids and a respite for parents so that all concerned can begin anew.
17 Nov
I don't know what your son's history is - whether he's made that threat before (suicide), whether he's depressed or very manipulative, etc - but he is in good hands. I hope things get better real soon. Wish I could give you a hug ?
31 Dec
I guess the subject says it all....my son, who's at TBS and will finish March 1st, was home for a week at Christmas. It was for the most part peaceful, and his progress has been very good at school. However, there were things that bothered me when he was here - mostly the way he ignored my entreaties to get work done on his private school applications. This was like old times (though without the drama). And also how he promised he'd do all the yard work, but only did a little: old times again.
Then after he'd been gone I saw on our computer that he'd been looking at pornography. It seemed that he'd deleted the history for those days so I wouldn't see it there, but I saw it another way. He had looked at pornographic sites in the past, and I'd made a big deal out of it. We've also had a number of serious discussions about how important I think it is that he respect women and girls, and not misuse sex. (He's 16). I feel very strongly about this, and I suspect there's a subtle connection between his interest in porn and his continuing lack of respect for me. That's something for a psychologist to figure out, I suppose. (BTW, he claims he doesn't need a therapist when he comes home; he's learned to talk about his feelings to friends).
What I'm interested in here is what the rest of you, who I respect quite a bit, think of my reaction. I will be talking to his counselor about this tomorrow and will get his input, but what do other parents in this forum think? Anyone else have a boy who did this habitually? BTW, it seems to be mainly garden variety stuff, at least not particularly violent.
I wrote a letter to my son & mailed it yesterday; it was pretty angry. I said that I was very disappointed & that I wasn't sure if I wanted him living here if he continued. But he's underage & i doubt I'd really follow through with that. Many people might see this as pretty minor. I'm very liberal - but I'm passionate about the dehumanization that I think sets in when one's exposed to too much of this kind of stuff. It makes me very uncomfortable, a reaction perhaps heightened by the fact that I was raped when young.
I'm also worried about how we'll keep to the contract we've been working on. I guess we'll have to have consequences very clearly spelled out.
Any ideas?
16 Jan 2002
My son will finish TBS at the end of next month, and when he was home over the holiday we realized quite clearly that his being home for 6 months (before he goes back to school in Sept) isn't going to work. It's like I was believing in a fairy tale almost, I was so caught up in the positive changes he was making. NOw I see that even if he had a full time job, it wouldn't work. He needs a full schedule, a structure he can't deviate from, he needs to be surrounded by strong authority figures, still.
20 Oct 2004
I haven't posted in several years(I think) but I do see some familiar names here. My 19-yr-old son went to a TBS following Utah wilderness. I was very happy with both programs and when he came home in March 2002 he was much happier, much more cooperative. He managed to graduate HS, then went to Costa Rica/Panama for 3 mos on his own. He was supposed to pay for that but ran out of cash and racked up a lot of bills on my credit card. Once home, he got a job at Radio Shack, which he liked, and kept it for almost a year. He was drinking and smoking MJ though. His room was full of liquor bottles - whenever I saw any I oculd pour out, I did. He has addiction problems but of ocurse he doesn't think so. I kept hoping things would work out, and he was giving me his paycheck evry wk. to cover his car payments, his share of the auto insurance, and his own bills. If anything was left it was supposed to go to his debt to me. I guess on the side he was selling small amounts of MJ to have pocket money. Anyway, within 6 weeks, starting on Labor Day, he was arrested for possession of MJ/smoking in public, he was arrested for DUI/DWI/speeding (with a high BAC), and caught stealing from the store and fired for that. He has no previous record but has been in trouble with police before. These are serious charges, but he knows he'll get them knocked down because this guy can get out of anything. He got his own lawyers and paid the first (for possession in another county) himself, but the second (DWI close to home) will be way beyond his means, particularly since he just lost his job. Sorry this is so long!! Part of me (and my therapist) says I should seriously consider telling him to live somewhere else. He does not pay rent. But it's just SO hard to consider that. That's why I came back here. Thanks for your comments and help -
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000847 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000847)[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-10-20 16:28 ]
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My 17 year old granddaughter just returned from a 7 1/2 week wilderness program for addiction 2 weeks ago. Although she is on a tight tether (without her car but with her cell phone) I saw her yesterday at a house next door where an old druggie girl friend lives. It was highschool lunchtime and no adult present.
In July at 2AM she was in this same home where there was a mixed party with no parents. (I heard her voice, saw her face under the street light and saw her car) I told my daughter about the party-- who asked my granddaughter if she was at this party. The granddaughter said 'no' , my daughter believed her and basically blew me off. My other daughter spoke to the father of this granddaughter a year ago about her bad reputation at school (wanting to alert him so he could stop this distruction in progress) She left in tears and was chastized for this information. Here is my problem:
Do I tell my daughter about this lunchtime escapade and risk narc-ing on my granddaughter who certainly would know where the source came from with me living next door? Should I risk my daughter blowing me off under the pretense that her daughter has to make her own decisions now . Or would the Utah counselors be seriously concerned about her hooking up with her undesireable friends 2 weeks after arriving home? I am in a lose/lose situation. If I don't tell anyone and we find this young girl,whom I love deeply, in serious addiction trouble AGAIN--would it be my fault for not telling.? Who do I tell. what do I say? thanks so much for any input.:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000859 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000859)
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Sad to say, but I found some stolen laptops in our basement. I have reason to believe that my son purchased them from a friend who stole them. Anyone been in this situation. My son is no longer a minor and we have every intention to return them to the owner, just not sure how to go about it. We realize that we may be turning our son in, but I don't see any other way around this. Our son has been home for over a year since his years at a WILDERNESS PROGRAM, a TREATMENT CENTER, & an EMOTIONAL GROWTH SCHOOL. Any advice would be aprreciated. Thanks
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000860 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000860)[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-10-28 11:58 ]
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Put an add in the papper under Found items?
Try that, and see if people call and claim them.
That way you can get them back to the rightful owners and not get your son charged.
Of corse, you may have to tell a lie or two as to where and how you found them. . .
But maybe not. Just say you found them and don't want to discolse to much about the circumstances. People should be able to prove ownership with registration numbers - or with whats on the thing.
My son got beat up and robbed of a gold chain and cross last news year eve.
I ran a "lost" add and the perp did call, twice, and told me he'd return it, but never showed. I expect he was afraid of the cops, but at least I had the satisfaction of knowing his conscience was pricked.
Failing this, or maybe this would be better - take them to the cops and tell them you found them. You don't have to say it was in your house. They might be suspicious and your boy had best be very careful, but I don't see how they could charge anyone this way.
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Deborah seems to be posting success stories that really are not to show that these programs don't work. I had sent my son to one. And anyone can email me about our experience ([email protected]), I do not have a complete opinion on the final results.
My son at first had typical teenage angst but then we suffered a family tragedy that seemed to send him overboard. He was extremely angry and aggressive towards the family for the past year. I took him to a therapist who told me it was a parent/teen control problem. I am not controlling and have raised my kids to be responsible for their actions, and believe in letting them hang themselves within reason, but when my son was endangering others by joyriding underage, vandalizing and destroying property, disappearing for days, that is when he needed to go. My biggest problem was my son had physically matured early and was bigger than all of us and he knew it. It was a horrible situation.
I can't say everyone should use a TBS, and be very careful and do your homework on the placement. The cost is outrageous. I will say that him being away for 10 mos. gave me and my family time to regroup and destress. It was like a long timeout for him. The place did ok. The therapy work was ok. The coping skills he learned were ok. They touched on drug effects, which my son was starting to really get into and anger management which he definitely needed but I don't think they did enough, but he seemed determined to buck the system.
When my son came back, he still seemed about 85% the same of which I was angry. We did some talking and arguing for a month. He got into some small trouble at school which was disappointing. The one thing I noticed vastly different with him was that he didn't argue and was listening better to what I said were consequences or suggestions, not perfect but better. I told him he was not allowed to hang out at a place and with certain people, I never usually do that but I pointed out to him that all the drama seems to come from that and I suggested we try that approach and see what happens. The drama stopped. It would not have worked if he didn't choose to listen. He seems to have decided to make some better choices. He is doing better all around. I am pleased at this time. I do make it clear to him that I will not tolerate illegal behavior and that I told him I will petition the court to take him away if he were to go back to his old ways. I told him he has 2 years until he's 18 and then he can do what he wants but not in my house. When he's 18, if he is not a full time student and helping around the house with the family, he will not be living here.
When he's in a good mood and we talk about the future, we discuss how much he thinks it will cost to live and what type of money/job. I asked him to do the research and report back to me and I would pay for him and 2 friends to go to the movies. Eye opener. I told him I'm done with freebies for him.. I provide food, shelter and few clothes. The rest is up to him now. He got a small p/t job and has been getting odd jobs around the neighborhood. I also quit my job to be home more for the next two years, sucks financially but seems more stable.
Things are tons better.
Anyone out there who has out of control teen, I feel bad for you. It's like going thru he**, you never know who's going to knock on your door with bad news about your kid. It's soo stressful on everyone. And you don't know what to do, there's not much help.
Start when they are little when you have the biggest influence, they will use that when they go thru their teens.
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You know, I wonder why those kids went to "treatment" in the first place?
I HAVE to speak up here. I still have contact with kids that I worked with years ago. Gang kids, Sex offenders, etc...who really did change themselves at the core level through the work they did at Woodside Trails Therapeutic Camp. Have you got a better place to put those kids who are abused, neglected and left on the streets. How do they get through all that anger and live a normal life (whatever that is). The Programs that try to help aren't necessarily the problem. There are many many different treatment modalities, and I disagree with many of them, but I MUST say that I have seen it WORK.
NO GRADUATE of WOODSIDE has EVER reoffended SEXUALLY. I call that success. Sure some have gotten in trouble for drugs, stealing, etc...but they were sent there for offender treatment. Not that facility is shut down, 48 kids bounced back into the system. Why? Because of a lack of understanding and bad press. The place really did great work. Now the other Camps in Texas are in Jeopardy. Interestingly enough, the one camp that I worked at and couldn't stand how mean they were to the kids (Pegasus in Lockhart) got a glowing review from the state. They truly treat the kids like little criminals, and it's completely inhumane (IMHO). The programs that do the Relationship nad Esteem based work are getting blasted...but they are doing the work that has proven results.
Don't pretend like this is not a necessary evil in today's world. It is. There are lota and lots of Fucked up kids out there. Who's gonna help them? What if their families are the reason they are fucked up in the first place. What about all the other causes in this culture?
Don't blame the Programs...the kids were fucked before they ever got there. Don't lecture me about developmental issues, that's what I'm studying in school. Take a look at the bigger picture, not just the scapegoat!
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Have you taken a look at the bigger picture Antny?
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens) might shed a little light.
http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com) might also.
The kids who need treatment and need to be kept from us if they ARE that dangerous, do need a place to go. But, they need actual help, not just slave-training to be obedient. Just show us how you make these amazing changes and we'll be happy! All we care about is... are they treated humanely, are they really helped, and do they have a way to get help if someone does unfortunately abuse them? Thats it! If a program does what it says and doesn't hurt anyone in the process we'd LOVE it.
Also, people who really DONT need to be shipped off often are, to the for-profit ones. It seems your program was not one of those, but if you did a little digging you might see why we get our hackles raised so easily. Enough bad impressions were made so that we're wary of them all.
If you really do help them, and they wre treated well, then I will personally apologize for people being so damned combative with you just becuase of what line of work you went into. However, I do have to tell you, with the stuff we've seen, its hard to keep that out of our minds.
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.
Tacitus, Roman senator and historian (A.D. c.56- c.115)
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I am. I've always been an extreme person and it took an extreme reality check. I am where I need to be. The program worked for me personally.
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In my somewhat well informed opinion, bullshit :wave:
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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I haven't posted to this thing in a while because I always ended up just like yelling at other people's opinions and trying to defend my own.
I am not sure if there are still parents reading this thread like the person who made the first post, but the advice I would give you is not to feel like you have totally lost control, but don't feel like you are a failure and you did everything wrong, either. The programs aren't made to 'fix' people, they just give families a way to kiond of make a strategy for what to do with a life or a family that seems to be going down the tube. Don't ever give up, you can always keep thinking of ways to show your kid that you guys are on the same team, and that no matter what you'll get through it all. And don't ever stop letting them know how much you love them.
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I can't imagine that it takes a year-and-a-half to three years to come up with a 'strategy'.
Ya know, nothing can be 'righted' until one admits they were 'wrong'.
How are parents and teens on the same team when they speak to each other 5 minutes a month for sometimes years.
Jeeezzzz. At least call a spade a spade. Programs are holding tanks, pavlovian laboratories.... and some parents are just okay with that.
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You won't ever see me. I am still where I need to be. I'm not discrediting some of these horror stories. They may have happened. However no one can brainwash you unless you allow them to. So, You won't see me in five years. Oh and I didn't get beaten either.
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Reading this thread makes me wonder if parents who send their kids away have something in common: difficulty talking with their children about sensitive issues such as alcohol, drugs, and sex. It seems to me that many parents (including my own) either can't or won't talk to their kids about these things, so they send their kids to places not necessarily to learn what they themselves can't teach but to "fix" the problems that have occurred due to their inability or unwillingness to communicate with their own children.
Any thoughts?
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Perrigaud, yes, you can brainwash people without them letting you. You're either ignorant, or in denial. If the CIA seems to think its possible I'd be inclined to agree, they'd know about that kind of thing, now wouldn't they?
Or maybe you haven't talked to a program child before. That wasy the most painful experience I ever had. Or maybe you still are one.
Cleopatra2U - I get that too. There are so many taboos and subjects you "never speak about" (or even think about!) between some parents in some sulb-cultures/religious denominations, and their children.
My friends mom (who talks to me a lot too) is much, much better at communicating with her kids than most other parents i've ever seen. The funny thing is, she seems to not have really grown up. Sure she pays the bills and makes them do their homework and drags them to school but she still has fun, kids around, tells jokes, and generally acts like someone my own age. I'm turning 20 in December.
When I told her about this issue after her daughter read in some teen magazine about Mountain park, she was totally horrified and in disbelief. But the more I got to know her the more I realized she had a true bond with her kids and wouldn't let it be seperated by some program, and she *gasp!* actually told them about things like sex, drugs, paying bills, jobs, how the opposite acts, etc.
I think it comes down to this hierarchial culture where topics are deemed inappropriate to think or talk about, that creates these scisms between the child and parent. I know parents who can't even say the "m-word" to their teenage children and freak out when they have puberty, and generally ill-prepare their kids for things like having free time, making their own decisions, paying bills, and doing things on their own volition, not because they were told to.
When there isn't a hierarchy in everyone's mind, and you can talk about anything you want, you create a bond that can't be broken by irrational fears and lies from program salesmen. Yeah, her kids might curse or disagree sometimes, but they have a real bond, are anything but naive, and can certainly think for themselves.
Oh, and just for the used-god salesmen who might come up, they're a very secular family and they're doing JUST fine, thank you! None of them are sleeping around, doing drugs, getting into fights... or taking crap from anyone :grin: For three days after death, hair and fingernails continue to grow but phone calls taper off.
-- Johnny Carson
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On 2004-11-21 15:20:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Perrigaud, yes, you can brainwash people without them letting you. You're either ignorant, or in denial. If the CIA seems to think its possible I'd be inclined to agree, they'd know about that kind of thing, now wouldn't they?
Yes, this is very, very true. Howsomever, it's a very sensitive subject for a number of reasons. I imagine it's a whole lot like a middle aged guy coming to terms w/ the harsh reality that he may (just might, possibly) not be quite as... uhm.... virile as he was @ 18. I mean, your mind is your bestest friend, you depend on it, have total faith and confidence in it. The very idea that someone can sneak past your guards and tweak the controls w/o you knowing it is terrifying if you think about it.
So most people don't think about it, refuse to believe it, can't entertain the notion that it's even possible. Most people feel the same way about hypnotism, never even comprehending that when they go to church, sing and get that 'filled w/ the spirit' feeling, that's essentially hypnosis, though it's usually a consensual arrangement.
But the truth is exactly the opposite. No one can be brainwashed with informed consent. You can resist brainwashing to the exact extent that you understand the process, or at least the routine. When you're surprised, emotional or caught off guard, that's when you're vulnerable. Almost any strong emotion will do.
It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college. And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.
We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.
--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law
[thank you, Crazy Mac!]
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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What IS brainwashing in the context of specialty boarding schools? Is that a "bad" thing???
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I'm never, EVER, going to condone ANYONE brainwashing ANYONE else, for ANY REASON. I fail to see how anyone could ever justify that!
The brainwashing in this context is basically the only way they work!
Children are took in, isolated, psychologically broken down, emotionally battered, and more often than lost physically injured through 'restraint' or by the actions of the higher level students.
That in and of itself, being treated brutally, having to get permission as if its a prvildage to take a shit or stand up or scratch your nose or look out a window, can do plenty to brainwash people. Go try some marathon restraint or time in OP and see how long you stay sane.
The other thing that can be brainwashing is the damn seminars. The group think, the extreme emotions... why the hell do you think these children throw up in these WONDERFUL seminars? The seminars are held in utmost secrecy, they're all very tired at the end of it, and what I've seen in testimony from students and the writeups of some parents who attended seems to indicate its just a mindfuck.
Besides brainwashing how do you 'instill' character traits? Please tell me! I'd love to know! The only thing these things seem to do is isolate, treat like shit, and break down inside (and outside), and spit out obedient, scared, scarred program children.
Yes, PROGRAM CHILD. Thats what they're called by their own parents. All the stupid rules to establish all this worship and submission... they serve no other purpose! All this isolation from the rest of the world, what use is that? Its certainly not going to help them fit into society!
Hell I'm sure most of them would freak out because I'm listening to a Rammstein song right now. I think I'll end on some translated lines from this song. Its called "Amerika"
Freedom is playing on all violins
Music is coming from the whitehouse
Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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Please. No I'm not ignorant nor am I in denial. Maybe it is in fact you that is ignorant. I made a decision to change. I knew I needed to change. Oh and by the way, I have been out for about 4 years. So, before you go around blaming it on brainwashing use your head.
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By the way I am a graduate. My parent's were more than open with me. I wasn't there for drugs. Poor pitiful you. Get over it.
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Who said anyone was in there for drug use? Certainly not me. Especially after having spoken to people who were put in for no reason or stupid reasons.
I was talking to someone *else*, not *you*, who said:
Posted: 2004-11-21 21:26:00 What IS brainwashing in the context of specialty boarding schools? Is that a "bad" thing???
And then, I went through how you could brainwash in a program gone wrong. Psychological regression seminars and mistreatment can brainwash.
You're awfully defensive there! Maybe your program was legit, maybt not. Poor pitiful you.
Get over it. who needs regular piss tests more than a former blowski who has his finger on the button?
--Chuck Beyer
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Brainwashing is somewhat like dementia... you never know when it hits you.
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Oh. Yeah my program was legit. I'm not saying that others didn't have a bad experience. I'm sure there were cases where such things happened. No place is ever 100% pure. I feel bad for those whe had a hard time. As for me, I am more than happy with the outcome of my program.
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Well, thats why were're HERE.
To seperate the two.
"sunshine" as one of our posters calls it.
Reform and regulation, and justice for those who have been abused. Making them change their methods to get rid of the absurd secrecy and isolation that neither have any therapeutic merit or excuses when children are involved.
And making them do what they say they are going to do without resorting to abuse.
Sorry to say it, but even if you were given nothing more severe tahn a hug you're going to be grilled here. There has been that much abuse. The problem is getting WORSE becuase its a damn money making industry Perrigaud.
There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett
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Perrigaud graduated from a WWASP "school". WWASP is not "legit" in any way.
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Nihilintic - What isn't a money making industry? Think about it.
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On 2004-11-23 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What isn't a money making industry?"
Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
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Nihilanthic. Or just say Nihil, or "niles" as I've been called before if copy and paste do not work properly.
Ok, yeah most industries tend to make money. However, when the point of it is supposedly diagnosing, treating, and helping children, the children and ethics should come before the damn profit margins.
When profit margins come before the kids, well, look all around you. This is what happens. Regulation is direly needed.
They can still make their fucking money, but might not afford the extra luxurious yachts until next year if they lose a little profit to making sure the kids aren't wrongly 'diagnosed', badly treated, or kept too long just to keep their coffers full. Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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This is interesting. The cost of having a kid in the juvenile system is around $180.00/daily, that approx $5400 a month. The most expensive WWASPS school is $3900/month. What would happen if parents had to pay to have their child in a juvenile detention center? You have a child, they need intervention, the taxpayers pay. The parents don't pay squat! Added bonus, the kid has a record. If they're lucky they'll get a GED and a five minute phone call once a week and a visit closely monitored by guards with guns. Yep, I'd choose that over having to pay out of my own pocket.
How much does a hospital stay cost if you have no insurance? $400-500 a day to pump a kid full of anti-depressants?
As long as someone else pays (taxes or insurance) for a member of your family Niles, is that better?
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1. Who said they'd be in jail? deadinsaneorinjail is progam speak and is not something valid in the real world.
2. We pay taxes to incarcerate people who actually commit crimes.
3. Who said they actually need to be sent anywhere?
What I should ask you is: 1. Who decides if they even need any therapy at all? 2. why should we trust people who want to get that 3900 a month and have a LONG record of abuse and manipulation themselves?
Oh, and another thing. There are far less expensive alternatives to incarceration, abuse and brainwashing for a long, long period of time. Such as... not fixing what isn't really even a problem! Doing your job as a parent! Out-patient treatment If there IS an actual problem! Or in those 1% cases where its acutally necessary to incarcerate them for an actual problem, a LEGIT treatmetn center.
And again, I'll reiterate: If the accused treatment centers would change how they operate to 1. not abuse and 2. prove they're not abusing and 3. giving the children within access to the law, advocatcy groups, and the outside world, and their parents, we'd not be here would we?
I'd rather not pay a fortune to have my kid isolated, brainwashed, abused, kept from me, and come back hating themself, me, live, and the world, thank you. Go take a trip to the forums for specific programs and read how they're all handling it. Or maybe go read the other stories about various treatment centers.
I hate the fact that I've known for such a long time now there are thousands and thousands of people locked up, terrified, miserable, and scarred children who only look forwards to sleep, dread getting up, and hope they get out of the stupid program before they die or ACTUALLY go insane, and I hate the fact that people like you refuse to see anything except what the programs tell you.
But, I regress, its not like you'll ever entertain the possibility any of this is real. We're ALL lying manipulators in a massive conspiracy to make the kids go drink, smoke pot, fuck and worship satan, right? :rofl: Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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Funny how your anonymous. Yep that's where I graduated. Legit or not it helped me and I stand behind it.
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http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_th ... /index.htm (http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/U_thrill_me/index.htm)
Someone said that times haven't changed that much since we were kids (us parents) Take a look at this and compare.
"Taking drugs meant orange-flavored chewable aspirin?"
"Having a weapon in school meant being caught with a slingshot?"
"They threatened to keep kids back a grade if they failed. . and they did?"
WWASPS (and I'm sure other programs) teach us to again live basic values. Something our kids never knew
Your horror stories don't wash...
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There was an overall implication that kids were better off because moms were home and grandparents/extended family were involved in kids lives.
This generation will write:
Remember when parents were too busy to be involved in their kids lives, so they were shipped off to behavior modification facilties, isolated from their families and the world to be tortured and have their brains twisted? Gawd, WHAT were they thinking?
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You don't teach someone else your values by punishing them and making them suffer if they don't comply, and indoctrinating them with those stupid seminars. I've read what people who have been in them have said about it and it seems to mesh with the wellspring and sensitivity training bullshit.
Basic Values... Basic Values my ass. Why would you need to help somone with depression by teaching Values? Drug addition? Values won't fix that. Any kind of real psychological problem? Values won't fix that EITHER.
Values come from within, but when you are young parents influence it. Being stripsearched, beaten, restrained as punishment, fed horrible food, and kept in stress positions doesn't do anything except break the person, and they'd accept your 'values' to get the hell out of there, and act like it infront of parents so they don't get sent back. It might even brainwash a percentage of them.
But that kind of torture is not moral, and its against my value system to do so. MY values are respecting people, not shoving your beliefs on them, not hurting anyone unless its necessary (to make them get good grades or not be gay, or 'fix' mental problems is not one of those necessary reasons), and using love and positive reinforcement and teaching, not lecturing or beating-into. Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
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Interesting how similar the story lines are.
Wilderness, RTC 'failed' and still looking for another program. And this woman's a therapist.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000878 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000878)
24 Nov 2004
Well..... after a wilderness and a TBS...daughter isn't going to school, not taking meds regularly, and generally back to her old tricks....lying, sexually acting out, failing,..all the old borderline tendency issues.... We have done all we know to do....any suggestions? Time is running out as she will be 18 in February.
15 June 2003
Our daughter is in a wilderness program in the far northern US. She is beginning to "get it" according to her therapist and by her letters home.Her therapist believes she is alot less pathological,than she originally thought, ("incomplete personality), but of course still needs assistance. Once she comes home in 4 weeks if she isn't successful even with alot of theraputic support....it has been suggested she go to a theraputic boarding school. Any thoughts or anyone with experience with this they are willing to share?
16 June
My daughter is in her 4th week at New Horizons. We are very pleased so far....anyone had experience with this program...results,etc.?
28 June
I am geting very concerned whether we can provide the structure for our daughter coming out of New Horizons in 2 weeks. anyone have experience with Aldern Academy in SC, Carolina Springs in NC or Hidden Lakes in GA? We are also looking a t a ranch setting in Tennessee...the Westmorlands? XX has no drug or alchohol use. The latest psychological testing is showing big time borderline tendencies. I know she is 16 an can grow out of alot of this. But my experience with these kids is they live life hard!
5 July
Per the wilderness therapist, we have my daughter in a small private hs for the fall, she will ride with me each way as I am a guidance counselor at a middle school nearby. Two days a week she has therapy after school, another 2 days she will work at a horse ranch. Family night is the other night during the work week. We have all privldeges on a "have to earn it back" basis and no friends for the immediate future...no phone, computer etc.Her Dad recently got a divorce so she can again, after many years spend every other weekend with him. He will inforce our rules there as well.
7 July
Our daughter is due home Friday...got a report from her Wilderness Program today that she had finally admitted to a romanitc relationship with another girl, after lying originally. She said it was all for attention. The girl has left and she had been our daughter's best friend while she was there.
The therrapist is telling us to have a TBS lined up in case her trial at home doesn't work.
We don't know what to believe at this point...our daughter may have used this girl like she had boys ...or she might have just been experimenting...she has told me before she might have "feelings" toward girls...and she lies so much, we just don't know. We knew wilderness wasn't a cure all...but we are discouraged.
29 Mar 2004
Our daughter almost did it this time...took over 100 Tylenol and chased it with alcohol. They saved her after 1 day in the ER, 2 in ICU and one in pediatrics. She is in a short term psychiatric center and we need more assistance. She has a personality disorder as well as depression and adhd, inattentive type.
13 April
Well..it is after the fact...but anyone with experience with LaAmastad in Maitland, Florida?
18 April
When I went to her RTC yesterday...she looked so good...acted so "ok"....I feel such a sense of loss...
19 April
I feel blessed that XX survived her suicide attempt and is working on her issues at the RTC. I am also thankful I have her in my life, "normal" or not...it's just heartbreaking when I see her and the guilt I feel for not recognizing what she was masking over the last 8 months is a big issue for me right now. She slipped it past us all...but as a therpaist and mother...I feel I should have seen it!
2 May
As many of you know I am a therpist, in addition to beeing XX's mom, (daughter, age 17 at RTC). Perhaps that is clouding my judgemenet...again!!!!
The therapist at the RTC is recommmending we let our daughter, (with borderline tendencies) make her own choices as far as friends go, boys, etc....and let the chips fall where they may for XX to deal with. Granted...that all sounds good in theory...but she is like a moth to a flame still at this point....calling old boyfriends who treated her badly, (or whom she used)....and if she can't get one on the phone keeps calling old boys in her life until she gets one on the phone...even though they have moved on or even asked her to go away, due to her latest "drama". Had a grea visit with her on pas yesterday, shopped til we dropped...had good talks...only to find out at the end that she still has her communication network with her old friends at home through letters to one of her "ok" friends.... boy was I steemed.... I feel like an idiot again...that I was buying the "changes" we had seen and what my daughter was saying.....
AS I said... I understand the concepts theraputically....but when she comes home I feel like we are handing her a loaded gun..... she is being ery "logical" athe RTC... telling then exactly what they want to hear, (she knows all too well).... she is bright but incredibly immature, naive and impulsive.
So... am I being too controlling, co dependent, just don't want to "let go"....or am I just still too **** scared after her suicde attempt. All of your imput will be appreciated, as always.
3 May
I've got it...trying to protect her I almost killed her and made her dependent and weak... hopefully it is not too late for her to learn the skills she needs and use them with her friends.
6 May
Still I have to say again...for me...it deepens the guilt me that I can help others and not XX. I understand that I am Mom here and that's all I should be....but it still seem to be harder because I am a counselor. I mean we feel enough guilt as parents anyway when our kids have problems. Also at times I feel it has kept her from getting the help she needs as professionals would say, "well she has so much support at home"....her dad and I are both therapists and her stepdad is a teacher who works with kids a lot also. In addition, XX has been seeing a psychitrist since age 10 and counselors from time to time also.....in general sometimes I feel my profession has failed her as well...which makes me feel even worse...if that makes sense. I am working on it all...it really needs to be about XX at this point and I am trying to let go in many way...
12 May
The RTC staff feels that XX needs to make her own decisions and will see through the bad relationships without my "protecting her" and cutting them out of her life as I have done in the past. She may get her feelings hurt....but they feel she can handle it and will not rebel against me as has also been her history. The therapist also feels the tremendous guilt she feels lying and sneaking won't be there.
She is also VERY open and honest about her feelings towards these people now and talking to us about them...the counselor doesn't want to drive her back "underground" where she was before...lying, sneaking etc....
The whole idea as I understand it is to keep the communication open at all costs...so she doesn't "go away" again emotionally into the dark hole of depression and deception that led to her suicide atttempt. Also, to be honest the strict rules and telling her who to see and what to do certainly hasn't worked over the years, (not to mention it is exhausting)... XX is stronger than I have given her credit for and can handle the "bumps and bruises" of adolescence that I have tried to run interference for.....I have to let her know I trust her to choose and decide....I have made her dependent and weak....for her age....now have to let her grow up.
4 June
After all we have been through my husband and I are separating.
My daughter is home from TBS and doing pretty well, but this past two years appear to be taking it's toll now.
My husband never realized he was "part of the problem"...it was all my daughter....she has to be top priority now....
24 Nov
Well.....after a wilderness and a TBS...daughter isn't going to school, not taking meds regularly, and generally back to her old tricks....lying, sexually acting out, failing,..all the old borderline tendency issues....
We have done all we know to do....any suggestions? Time is running out as she will be 18 in February.
25 Nov
My daughter is soon to be 18...failing her senior year, not wanting to go to school....beautiful, bright and troubled....won't take meds regualrly.. denies depression, has borderline tendencies... ...anyone know of programs for kids of this type?
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Hidden Lake is preety gay. Never send ur kids there its horrible
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Just because these kids are not fixed, doesn't mean that RTC's don't work or are inherently bad. It makes me very angry to hear all of you guys say these things. I graduated from a RTC almost 2 years ago, and while I still struggle, I have continued to use the lessons that I learned in my everyday life. Going to a RTC did save my life. I know that many of you will claim that I am brainwashed or whatever, but the truth is, I am a happy person who learned how to be functional because of my RTC. The fact that former residents have relapsed is 1. NORMAL! 2. not the fault of the RTC. Granted, I can't speak for every RTC out there, but neither can all of you. and to claim that all are bad and destructive is b.s. and I hope that you all can realize that.
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Did you get ACTUAL THERAPY, or were you just locked in, secluded, abused, and broken emotionally and mentally to be forced into obedience?
If you got ACUTAL THERAPY, great. If you were just yelled at, locked up, restrained, fed shit, shoved in bullshit seminars and kept from the world to force your obedience... sorry to hear it.
Thats not saving anyone, its just breaking children. A LOT of these places do that. The only specifics I've heard about ANY PROGRAM YET, has been from people with bad things to say. If the GOOD programs had SPECIFICS and weren't so fucking secretive like the damned skunk works or Guantanamo Bay, we'd all shut up. Go ask deborah (I think) about "sunshine".
Sorry to blow up but I'm in a bad mood, and I'm not going on OP for venting here :grin: It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases
--Schiller (1759-1805)
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On 2004-12-09 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just because these kids are not fixed, doesn't mean that RTC's don't work or are inherently bad. It makes me very angry to hear all of you guys say these things. I graduated from a RTC almost 2 years ago, and while I still struggle, I have continued to use the lessons that I learned in my everyday life. Going to a RTC did save my life. I know that many of you will claim that I am brainwashed or whatever, but the truth is, I am a happy person who learned how to be functional because of my RTC. The fact that former residents have relapsed is 1. NORMAL! 2. not the fault of the RTC. Granted, I can't speak for every RTC out there, but neither can all of you. and to claim that all are bad and destructive is b.s. and I hope that you all can realize that."
You haven't, and *won't* hear me say that all RTC's are bad and destructive.
There are situations where residential psychiatric care is necessary and appropriate, although it is *always* difficult for everyone involved.
What you *will* hear me say is that because there are so many bad RTCs out there, and so little oversight and enforcement, it is very difficult for parents to tell the difference between a good, quality RTC that will probably help there child and will *at least* provide quality care for their child and a lousy, fraudulent RTC that lies outright to the parents and defrauds them while mistreating their children.
The solution is not to abolish residential care.
The solution is Reform, Oversight, Standards, Enforcement, and Sunshine.
In this case, "sunshine" being ready access to the child for the parents, and sufficient access for the child's other family members for them to be able to assure themselves that their relative is not being abused. The ability of the patients to regularly send unread, uncensored mail to the outside world, and to receive mail that's only been screened for contraband would probably be adequate. (Subject to 30 days or less of *incoming only* mail stoppage by a licensed psychiatrist if and only if he/she has personally examined and is personally treating that patient and determines it to be necessary to the mental health of that *specific* patient.)
The scandal of sub-par RTCs is not anything new to the mental health profession. The entire history of mental health care has been one of many people doing the best they know how to do to care for patients, and some being flagrantly abusive. Then some pshrink or pshrinks either find out better ways to treat certain problems, or patient's relatives get fed up with the abuses, and reforms are made. Then another treatment fad comes along and the cockroaches work their way into the woodwork and it all starts over again.
Thing is, usually with each iteration mental health care has gotten substantially better for some groups of patients.
A prime example would be the general paresis patients getting antibiotics *early* in their syphilis infections and never getting mentally ill at all.
Another would be the improvement in the lives of schizophrenics, even in institutions, after the discovery of thorazine, or the improvement for bipolars after the discovery of lithium.
My great grandmother had to be chained to a tree in the yard like a dog when her manic phases made her violent. My great aunt was in and out of mental hospitals all her life. My daughter and I will probably have significantly better lives than our relatives from earlier generations because as times change, treatments improve.
A lot of current RTCs are either fraudulent outright, or using outdated treatment protocols that amount to abuse.
Nobody even remotely sane (or able to fake it on meds, at least :smile: ) is trying to keep seriously disturbed teenagers from getting the care they need---including residential care, when necessary.
What those of us who are rational (which is most of us) are trying to do is get the industry reformed so that patients get *quality* care, and so that parents and other family members get *honest* representations of what services their money is actually buying for their child.
I'm thrilled that you're okay---really.
Please understand that other kids who have not received the services their parents were promised, or who have received last-decade's-fad treatments that psychiatrists and clinicians now know to be ineffective or harmful, are *NOT* okay.
We don't want to make it so kids like you were aren't okay, either.
We want to reform care so that the parents are getting what they're paying for and the kids are getting treatments with good track records in peer-reviewed research, or promising new treatments, rather than treatments that the mental health experts have already established are ineffective or harmful for the kid's particular condition.
And, of course, where a treatment is experimental, the parents need to be told and give informed consent, and trials need to be structured and data collected to determine whether the treatment actually works or not.
One of the biggest reforms is that therapeutic approaches need to be tested and validated, or invalidated, just like we evaluate psychiatric drugs.
Parents, and the community, have a right to know whether the treatment works or not, and to know based on something more than testimonials and rigged customer-satisfaction surveys.
I'm not saying parents shouldn't be able to choose pastoral counseling or color therapy or aromatherapy or repetitive-thumb-rotation-zen therapy as long as there's no evidence the kids are being *harmed* by it.
I'm just saying psychiatry has developed to the point that it's time to do to residential treatment what the FDA did to patent medicines----reform it so that when consumers buy a treatment, if they're told it works, they can trust that it really does.
If the bottle on the shelf says "penicillin," the capsules in it shouldn't be full of sawdust.
If the RTC brochure says "cognitive behavioral therapy," the treatment behind the closed doors shouldn't be a dunking stool and a pool of cold water.
Reform.
Just because your folks, figuratively speaking, bought a willow-bark syrup that cured your headache doesn't mean the kid down the road didn't have his parents buy snake oil for *his* headache.
So I'm glad you're okay.
There are an awful lot of people who aren't.
We're all trying to deal with *that*, without preventing people like yourself from getting care that works for you.
Timoclea
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On 2004-12-09 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just because these kids are not fixed, doesn't mean that RTC's don't work or are inherently bad. It makes me very angry to hear all of you guys say these things. I graduated from a RTC almost 2 years ago, and while I still struggle, I have continued to use the lessons that I learned in my everyday life. Going to a RTC did save my life. I know that many of you will claim that I am brainwashed or whatever, but the truth is, I am a happy person who learned how to be functional because of my RTC. The fact that former residents have relapsed is 1. NORMAL! 2. not the fault of the RTC. Granted, I can't speak for every RTC out there, but neither can all of you. and to claim that all are bad and destructive is b.s. and I hope that you all can realize that."
Hi, don't know if you know this but only addicts "relapse." Your generalizing all of us as addicts is not brainwashed it is well...just stupid. Go to a tough love support group if you want approval.
The Graduate
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On 2004-12-10 07:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hi, don't know if you know this but only addicts "relapse."
Yes. And that's just one of many reasons why it's dangerous and cruel to convince a bunch of kids that they're addicts when they are not.
It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
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Another huge component of this thread is that RTC's, TBs's, BM's, fundamental religious camps, etc. "treat" MANY kids who DON'T NEED TREATMENT AT ALL!!!
Timoclea has terrific personal experience, and can write eloquently about the abuses of treating mentally ill patients.
Ginger has terrific personal experience, and can write eloquently about the abuses of treating drug addicts.
I have personal experience, and can write about all the victims of these institutions who have no greater problem than being teenagers growing up, and who are treated in a manner that the International Red Cross identifies as torture.
How many kids in these places really have nothing identifiably "wrong" with them? We'll never know, because it's a industry-wide policy to keep identities, numbers, and post-graduate status a deep secret. If you took the 600 or so Casa by the Sea inmates and did a panel on them, how many would you find that a psychiatrist would label bi-polar? Probably not much more of a percentage than the general population. How many would be drug addicts...not occasional users, heavy-users-to-piss-off-parents, or dabblers in every mind-altering substance known to teens? Maybe more than the general population percentage (after all, they did get sent to these hell-holes for more-than-your-average pissing off of parents!), but what percentage would be *addicts*?
I'd venture that at least 50% of the inmates would fall in the category of normal, obnoxious kids...with a very large number products of "blended" families whose blending didn't work. These kids would be like curds in the cream of blending that clotted when new step-parents or totally inadequate adoptive parents discover the ultimate warehousing solution to The Problem Child.
I recently learned that in Christmas #1 in my grandaughter's "new" step-family, she and her sister got coal in their stockings...literally, the step-dad went out and found a lump of coal somewhere on the coast of Central California and put it into the stockings of his new 13- and 14-year-old stepdaughters. His own children received an I-Pod and a cell phone. Eventually, it cost him a second mortgage on his home to get rid of one of them, but interest rates were so low that he was able to refinance without raising his monthly payments. A win-win situation!
As for the vagueness of "success stories", I have yet to hear one single sentence from a kid or parent that outlines intelligently what the Program actually did to keep the kid from being deadorinjail. Yet, I listen and hear snippets and anecdotes continually about small horrid examples of "treatment" of these young people. Some survive well, some suffer longer, but most never forgive or forget. There are no true Program success stories.
[ This Message was edited by: spots on 2004-12-10 08:48 ]
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WWASP as i personally know (was at ivy ridge for 1 1/2 years but did not graduate, was compliant to keep from being abused or nething) is not helpful at all. they use cultic brainwashing and force to scare kids into submission while lying to their parents. the parents are made to feel no blame (they tell them the kids made the choice to be sent their through there actions and that the kids are manipulators and liar). The "success"(brainwashing) only lasts for a while before kids start to realize what happened to them and start thinking for themselves again. ive been out for almost exactly a year now and it took me about a year to start realize what was going on in there. i was tehre for so long that i started to believe that we were bad kids and we needed the "discipline" and it was good for us and i needed to obey every authority figure. well now ive realized i must of been insane or something but the effect is wearing off and no i dont do drugs or sex or skip school im a straight A student and involved in many school clubs and have a really good relationship with my mom. i must say that the program has helped me on the surface to rid of my negative behaviours but inside i think im more screwed up then before i went there. questions? my email is [email protected] and my aol im is craziee mee xd
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Sadly, a lot of these people will never be able to write anything...
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I personally think it would be easy to call anything as a cult. Religion itself is cultic. However, religion in it's pure form has proven to help people. I knew that not everything in the program was agreeable. I retained what I saw fit for me. THe program was merely an aid not an all ailing resolution. To those who did get beaten and used I am sorry. I never experienced nor saw such things. It is sad that such places have corruption. The world can be evil.
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Cults - Warning Signs:
1. Limitation of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters, and visits with friends and family are discouraged or even banned.
(WWASP does not allow the kids incracerated in its facilities any contact with the outside world. They are only allowed to write to their parents, and according to many testimonies of survivors, the letters will not be sent if they contain too much criticism about the program or if they are not approved by the staff).
2. New members become convinced of the higher purpose of the group, i.e. an alleged miracle or the prophetic word of the group.
(New WWASPies often talk about how the program "opened their eyes", "saved their lives", etc. etc.)
3. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, be it global, social, or personal.
(This noe is self-explanatory)
4. Use of the practice of self-disclosure to members in the group. In the context of a gathering of the group, converts are encouraged to adit past sins and imperfections, and doubts about the group.
(In Seminars and group sessions, children and parents are coaxed into admitting mistakes, humiliating experiences, intimate feelings and instances of abuse, so that the group can rip into them and break them down. Their private experiences are then re-interpreted according to the program's doctrine).
5. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain everything. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. Absolute conformity is required.
(This becomes pretty obvious when one attempts to talk to a WWASPie in a reasonable way. According to WWASPies, WWASP is always right, WWASP can't do any wrong, etc. They will often say that "the program isn't for everybody", but will never hesitate to refer you to the program, no matter what's your problem or story).
6. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract and narrow parameters of the group doctrine. Loaded terms and cliches prejudice thinking.
(Terms such as "change", "graduation", "magical inner child", etc. take on a whole new meaning in the program, and along with the use of cliches and certain lines, become what is known as "Program-speak".)
7. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly interpreted through the absolute doctrine.
(WWASPies will always tell you that before WWASP, they were horrible, their lives were going down the drain, and that if they were allowed to continue in their path, they would surely be dead or in jail. According to WWASPies, the program saved their lives. You will not find a single WWASPie who claims otherwise, which is a huge red flag-- not all problems are life-threatening, and every single troubled teen is in a life-or-death situation. The fact that WWASPies are unable to claim otherwise means they have lost the ability to think critically).
8. Salvation is only possible within the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.
(Ask any WWASPie: Those who graduate are saved. Those who leave the program are liars, dirtbags, whores, and druggies, who will probably die because they have left the Holy Program).
WWASP has been established out of a different "treatment cult", by the name of LifeSpring. David Gilcrease, who created the WWASP seminars, was a LifeSpring trainer. Testimonies shows that WWASP seminars are almost identical to those of LifeSpring. More info can be found here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/cults.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/cults.html)
WWASP is a cult-- a highly abusive, dangerous cult. Parents, for your sake and for your children's sake, stay away from it.
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On 2004-12-20 01:17:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I personally think it would be easy to call anything as a cult. Religion itself is cultic. However, religion in it's pure form has proven to help people. I knew that not everything in the program was agreeable. I retained what I saw fit for me. THe program was merely an aid not an all ailing resolution. To those who did get beaten and used I am sorry. I never experienced nor saw such things. It is sad that such places have corruption. The world can be evil. "
Q. How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?
A. Four. Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it one.
You can call any group a cult, just like you can call any behavior an addiction or any person "troubled." Calling a group a cult, or a behavior an addiction, or a person "troubled" absolutely doesn't make that assertion true.
However, there are fairly good standards for evaluating how "cultish" any group is. One of the standard tools that some law enforcement groups use for evaluating the level of cultishness of a particular group is the Bonewitz Cult Danger Evaluation Frame.
http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html (http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html)
In this case, the evaluation tool coming from a neopagan is a plus, as Bonewitz has been very careful to restrict the evaluation criteria to being based on behaviors and be neutral to various people's personal philosophies and religious beliefs.
I suppose what I'd encourage parents to do when they're considering a course of action for dealing with a difficult situation with their child, is to find out all they can---both open and alleged---about the various options they might be considering for help with their problem, evaluate the various groups offering help based on the Cult Danger Evaluation Frame, and then try to pick a group *less* likely to be dangerous to themselves or their children.
Parents might also want to give each group two scores---one on the group's cult danger for the parents, and one on the group's cult danger for their children.
Rather than giving an absolute decision on "this group is a cult and that one is not," the Bonewitz questionnaire gives parents something they can use to compare different groups' level of safety or dangerousness relative to each other and choose a *relatively* safer option over a relatively more dangerous one.
One thing a parent might do for reference is fill the questionnaire out for each group they're considering help from, and once for prison or the state mental hospital, and once for AA and NA, and once for outpatient psychiatric treatment.
Those groups will give a middle of the road reference point for an appropriate group cult danger level in dealing with even serious social problems.
It looks to me like WWASPS would score fairly high for cult danger level, but it's all relative, and rather than going by *my* opinion, I would hope that any parents in a difficult situation with their teen would use this evaluation tool to help them compare and contrast all the various options they may be considering and just use it as *one* tool available to help themselves when they're weighing the risks versus benefits of all their possible choices.
I'd encourage parents to try to be as impartial and abstract as possible in scoring each group's level of risk, so that they get the most benefit out of their use of this valuable tool.
Timoclea
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Law Enforcement uses this tool to assess a cult? Then calling WWASP a cult is ludicrous - the FBI, CIA, law enforcement, would have shut their programs down a long time ago! That is unless there's a secret society of FBI agents that have their kids in one of the schools.
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http://www.thesource4parents.com./pdf/2004/Jan_05L.pdf (http://www.thesource4parents.com./pdf/2004/Jan_05L.pdf)
Please look at this and Please tell me where it looks or sounds like these kids are in a cult.
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On 2004-12-20 16:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Law Enforcement uses this tool to assess a cult? Then calling WWASP a cult is ludicrous - the FBI, CIA, law enforcement, would have shut their programs down a long time ago! That is unless there's a secret society of FBI agents that have their kids in one of the schools. "
Your reading comprehension sucks.
Various law enforcement agencies do use Bonewitz' evaluation frame to determine how cult-like an organization they're dealing with is.
Contrary to your assumption, there's no law against starting a cult or being a member of a cult.
The tool is just *useful* to law enforcement when members or the leadership of an organization that *may* be a cult or cult-like come to their attention for *other* reasons. For one thing, it can help them better predict the behavior of individuals who may be targets in an investigation of something that *is* against the law.
In the case of psychotherapy cults, it can help law enforcement put together a profile that assists them in investigating fraud, child abuse, missing persons cases, etc., related to cult members. (There have been various well-documented cults based on various collections of elaborate psychobabble. Personally, I'd count Scientology as one of those.)
It's not illegal to join a cult, or start one. Feel free to go out tomorrow and join the Unification Church (Moonies), or the Hari Krishnas, or the Maharishi TM folks, or the Scientologists---or, hey, do what L. Ron Hubbard did and invent your own. You certainly won't be breaking any laws just by joining or making one, and contrary to your assumptions, law enforcement won't be coming around any time soon to shut you down.
Unless your cult involvement leads you into breaking actual laws on the books---like the ones against child abuse. (Didn't the Moonies get in trouble for that?)
If you join a cult and your involvement *does* lead you into breaking laws, then expect law enforcement to use either the Bonewits tool or some other similar general purpose tool in assessing what they're dealing with with the cult's entanglement with the various crimes and sorting out the individual involvement in the various crimes and who needs to be charged with what.
Or if there's a civil claim and the cult's practices are relevant to the case---say, hypothetically, an 80 year old billionaire joins the Moonies and a month later kicks off leaving his entire fortune to them and nothing to his son, and his son sues alleging "undue influence" (which is grounds to throw out a will). The son's lawyer might use the Bonewits tool, or a similar instrument, in contrasting the Moonies with other groups who have received bequests that have been upheld by the Courts and in demonstrating the kind of undue influence the organization allegedly wielded over the deceased.
But in *this* case, I'm suggesting that *parents* use this tool, or any other similar belief-neutral tool for dispassionately evaluating the cult risks of one organization versus another, so the parents can make a more informed decision among the various options they're considering for dealing with their family's problems.
Timoclea
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On 2004-12-20 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.thesource4parents.com./pdf/2004/Jan_05L.pdf
Please look at this and Please tell me where it looks or sounds like these kids are in a cult. "
That's marketing produced by and for them. OF COURSE it's going to look wonderful.
I can't believe I actually had to spell that out. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Timoclea - Scientology a cult? Are you saying that John Travolta and Tom Cruise, among other very successful people, are members of a mind controlling cult? Let the results of their choice in spiritual growth speak for itself.
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On 2004-12-20 22:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2004-12-20 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.thesource4parents.com./pdf/2004/Jan_05L.pdf
Please look at this and Please tell me where it looks or sounds like these kids are in a cult. "
That's marketing produced by and for them. OF COURSE it's going to look wonderful.
I can't believe I actually had to spell that out. :roll: :roll: :roll: "
Spell what out? You didn't answer the question. Please state where in their "marketing" it looks like brainwashing or being in a cult.
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Silly person,
Of course their "marketing" doesnt spell out the fact you get inducted into thier cult. It comes into play within the mandated seminars parents are required to attend.
It does'nt get much more cultish. Cult members(you) wouldnt see it as such because you are too far into deep cult beliefs (save my child's life etc.)
I challenge you to ask an unbiased observer.It may be enlightening for you.
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You can't really be this dense. Their marketing tools wouldn't contain anything that came close to appearing like brainwashing or a cult. That wouldn't be good for business now, would it? :roll: :roll: :roll: Do you understand how advertising and marketing work? You find the tactics when you look beyond[/b] the polished material that is intended to shine the best possible light on themselves.
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The history of Scientology
http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientol ... cientology (http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html#The%20History%20and%20Background%20of%20Scientology)
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On 2004-12-21 08:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Timoclea - Scientology a cult? Are you saying that John Travolta and Tom Cruise, among other very successful people, are members of a mind controlling cult? Let the results of their choice in spiritual growth speak for itself. "
YES, THEY SURE ARE.
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On 2004-12-21 08:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Let the results of their choice in spiritual growth speak for itself."
They were successful before they joined. The cult cannot take credit for that.
Cults do target people who they think can promote their cause - such as celebrities.
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http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... ies32.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/celebrities/celebrities32.html)
Will Scientology Celebs Sign 'Spiritual' Contract?
Fox News/September 3, 2003
By Roger Friedman
Tom Cruise claims to have been dyslexic before he was saved by Scientology.
Let's hope that he can read the fine print in a new agreement the religious organization is demanding its members sign.
The contract - called the "Agreement and General Release Regarding Spiritual Assistance" - makes it clear that the signee does not believe in psychiatry and does not want to be treated for any kind of psychiatric ailment should one befall him.
Instead, once the paper is signed, the agreement calls for the Church of Scientology to step in if there's ever a problem. The result would be total isolation and constant surveillance.
The question is: Will the stars upon whom Scientology has depended to carry its message - including Cruise, John Travolta and Kelly Preston, Lisa Marie Presley and her mother, Priscilla - sign a new agreement that could potentially hand over their rights and personal freedom to the church?
The wording of the agreement is shocking, to say the least. If a member of the church becomes what we might call "mentally incompetent," he automatically agrees to be placed in the care of Scientology counselors, potentially barring family, friends or anyone else from interceding, including doctors and psychiatrists.
The new agreement seems to stem from a long-simmering wrongful-death lawsuit brought by the estate of Lisa McPherson against the Church of Scientology.
It alleges that McPherson died in 1995 after being held against her will by the church for 17 days. When she died, it is claimed, her body was covered with cockroach bites and McPherson was dehydrated.
By having members sign the contact agreeing to be isolated from family and medical professionals, the church apparently believes it would be immune to such lawsuits. The lawsuit, which has suffered several postponements, may come to trial in 2004.
Outspoken critics of Scientology - such as Carnegie Mellon professor Dave Touretzky, who uncovered the new agreement - claim the form is designed to protect the church from further litigation.
But will Cruise, Travolta, and others agree to the same wording that non-celebrity followers must in allowing themselves to endure something called the "Introspection Rundown?"
Calls to their spokespeople didn't help very much. Travolta and the Presleys' publicist referred my question back to the Church of Scientology. Cruise's office didn't have an answer.
An assistant in the Scientology office did tell me that she was a member of the church and had signed many different contracts.
The Spiritual Assistance agreement reads in part: "I understand that the Introspection Rundown is an intensive, rigorous Religious Service that includes being isolated from all sources of potential spiritual upset, including but not limited to family members, friends or others with whom I might normally interact."
"As part of the Introspection Rundown, I specifically consent to Church members being with me 24 hours a day at the direction of my Case Supervisor, in accordance with the tenets and custom of the Scientology religion. The Case Supervisor will determine the time period in which I will remain isolated, according to the beliefs and practices of the Scientology religion."
"I further specifically acknowledge that the duration of any such isolation is uncertain, determined only by my spiritual condition, but that such duration will be completely at the discretion of the Case Supervisor. I also specifically consent to the presence of Church members around the clock for whatever length of time is necessary to perform the Introspection Rundown's processes and to achieve the spiritual results of the Introspection Rundown."
(Any isolation, of course, would be preferable to watching Travolta in "Look Who's Talking.")
What does this all mean?
Linda Hight, spokeswoman for Scientology, told me last night that the contract is self-explanatory.
"I'm sure you know the English language," she said, "and you know what it means."
She described psychiatry as "barbaric, harmful, and fraudulent."
"The contract is drawn up," Hight added, "for those who wish [to use it]."
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DEATH OF A SCIENTOLOGIST
http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientol ... entologist (http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html#Lisa%20McPherson--Death%20of%20a%20Scientologist)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/scien ... en332.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/scien332.html)
Doctor in Lisa McPherson case suspended
David I. Minkoff loses his license for one year for improperly prescribing drugs for the Scientologist.
St. Petersburg Times/August 4, 2001
By Thomas C. Tobin and Alisa Ulferts
Tallahassee -- Florida's Board of Medicine has sternly sanctioned Clearwater physician David I. Minkoff, finding he improperly prescribed medicine for a patient he had never seen -- Scientologist Lisa McPherson.
Minkoff, also a Scientologist, prescribed Valium and the muscle relaxant chloral hydrate at the behest of unlicensed Church of Scientology staffers who were trying to nurse McPherson, 36, through a severe mental breakdown. When they failed after 17 days of isolating her, Minkoff was recruited again. This time, he pronounced McPherson dead.
For his role in the 1995 episode that Minkoff himself calls a "fiasco," the 53-year-old doctor will lose his medical license for one year and then be made to practice under probation for two more years -- unless he appeals and wins a reversal. He also was fined $10,000.
The board's action Friday is the first official consequence for anyone connected with McPherson's death, which resulted in a two-year criminal investigation, made headlines around the world, claimed the career of the local medical examiner and plunged the church into a tumultuous period that sapped its resources and hurt membership.
The investigation brought two unprecedented felony charges, not against individuals but against a corporation: Scientology's main entity in Clearwater. One of them, the charge of practicing medicine without a license, was related to Minkoff's actions. The other was neglect of a disabled adult.
Both were dropped last year after Pinellas prosecutors reluctantly concluded their case had been wrecked by Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Joan Wood, who changed her conclusions about the cause of McPherson's death and later retired under pressure.
Meanwhile, a wrongful death lawsuit filed in 1997 by McPherson's family moves slowly through the Pinellas court system.
On Friday, Minkoff appeared before the board to answer charges that he prescribed medication for McPherson over the phone without examining her and that he relied on the church's non-licensed medical officers in treating McPherson.
However, he said nothing during the hearing and declined to speak to the St. Petersburg Times afterward. Board members agreed to stay Minkoff's suspension pending his appeal, but added a few words to their punishment. "This is a healthy, 36-year-old female who died for no reason I can tell," said Rafael Miguel, one of two board members who wanted to revoke Minkoff's license. In the last fiscal year, only 8 percent of doctors disciplined by the Board of Medicine were suspended.
Ken Dandar, the Tampa lawyer who represents McPherson's family, called the sanctions too lenient. Dandar set off the inquiry that led to Friday's action, complaining about Minkoff to state health officials in 1997.
He nevertheless credited Minkoff on Friday for the candid accounts he has given in sworn statements. It was Minkoff, a Scientologist for 20 years, who told prosecutors in 1998 that McPherson's care at Scientology's Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater was seriously flawed.
McPherson's troubles surfaced Nov. 18, 1995, when she disrobed in the street after a minor auto accident. Paramedics took her to Morton Plant Hospital for psychiatric evaluation, but several Scientologists showed up to object, citing the church's hard stance against psychiatry.
When they took McPherson to the Fort Harrison Hotel, a Scientology retreat, she became psychotic. Two days later, church staffers called Minkoff, saying they needed something to help McPherson sleep.
The doctor is a "public" Scientologist, not one of the uniformed members who staff the church. Though Minkoff had never seen McPherson and didn't know her medical history, he prescribed liquid Valium. He also wrote the prescription in the name of the Scientology staffer who was sent to pick it up -- not the actions of a "reasonably prudent physician," according to a stinging document written earlier this year by the state's Agency for Health Care Administration.
Nine days later, the church staffers called again. This time, Minkoff prescribed chloral hydrate, a prescription sedative, again without examining McPherson or gleaning information about her medical situation. On Dec. 5, 1995, when Scientology staffers realized McPherson was physically ill, they again called Minkoff, who says he told them to take her to the nearest hospital. But the staffers persisted, saying they feared doctors at Morton Plant Hospital, two minutes away, would put her in the psychiatric ward.
Minkoff, who worked in the emergency room at a New Port Richey hospital 45 minutes away, finally agreed to see McPherson. He was "shocked out of my wits" when she arrived.
After pronouncing McPherson dead, Minkoff told prosecutors he screamed at church staffer Janis Johnson for bringing him someone in such "horrific" shape. Johnson was an unlicensed physician.
An autopsy found McPherson died of a blood clot in her left lung. Minkoff, who also works at a Clearwater clinic, was contrite with prosecutors about his role, saying, "It was foolish to do what I did."
Because of statements like that, Minkoff has come to be one of the better witnesses against his own church as McPherson's relatives press their lawsuit. Once a defendant in that lawsuit, he has settled with McPherson's family. Minkoff has said Johnson never revealed the severity of McPherson's psychosis. Had he known more, he would have acted differently, he told prosecutors.
The church had no response Friday.
Minkoff's attorney, Bruce Lamb, reminded medical board members Friday that Minkoff has practiced medicine since 1995 without incident. Suspending him immediately could put other patients in jeopardy, he said. "There was no intent or bad act committed by Dr. Minkoff."
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On 2004-12-21 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You can't really be this dense. Their marketing tools wouldn't contain anything that came close to appearing like brainwashing or a cult. That wouldn't be good for business now, would it? :roll: :roll: :roll: Do you understand how advertising and marketing work? You find the tactics when you look beyond[/b] the polished material that is intended to shine the best possible light on themselves. "
Actually, that magazine is not intended to be a marketing tool. It's mailed to parents and those whose child graduated can access it via the internet. It's more an inhouse thing, but with the internet, unfortunately, anyone can access it.
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OK, I guess you really ARE that dense. That's not true at all. It's not meant to be an "in-house" thing. Not be a long shot.
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cults that target celebritys run by scam artists , narcisistic tyrants, sociopathological liars who believe the ends justify the means and both places are supremacist groups who use the lie "we are about making friends and we are in the people business" they are in the business of extorting the outside world for whatever they can and turning the kids into puppets for the cult and even indoctrinating them as cult members before they "graduate" the celebritys are so conned by what their kids tell them that they support the lie that these place help those who help themselves. the truth is that they are being used and they are so desperate to have "friends" that they buy into whatever the cult leaders coerce , manipulate, brainwash or just plain lie to get them to believe. the kids believe the cult because the cult has come up with a way to get them to believe whatever they say. [ This Message was edited by: iknowcedulies on 2004-12-21 16:02 ][ This Message was edited by: iknowcedulies on 2005-01-11 16:46 ][ This Message was edited by: iknowcedulies on 2005-01-12 13:28 ]
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Cruise and Presley are puppets for scientology which is a scam. they lie saying they are a religion so they can get tax free status. they treat the famous one way and the easily taken advantage of another way. someone should send the fucking abuse stories to their publicists and confront the famous on camera. presley is a spoiled whore who uses her name to get her way. she is so spoiled that nick cage could tolerate 3 months of her. she has never understood that you do not get to have your way all the time. growing up in that white trash palace graceland taught her how to step on all and not how to be compromising. she sold that hellhole so she could let these leeches use her money like every other cult which is what they are. keep writing articles about their abuses so we can help the victims . cruise is not gay. what is the basis for the rumour ? looks ? he looks like a rat i never understood how he got to the top. he is a victim of the scam known as a cult in disguise.
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Actually, that magazine is not intended to be a marketing tool. It's mailed to parents and those whose child graduated can access it via the internet. It's more an inhouse thing, but with the internet, unfortunately, anyone can access it."
Basically, bullshit! I have an active subscription to The Source, which I have been receiving (hard copy, not the Internet) for nearly two years. I simply called St. George, stating that I had a relative in one of their insititutions, and asked for the subscription.
In that length of time, it has become dreadfully obvious that one person, the editor, creates and produces this magazine...not the many "contributing" students and parents. She tailors the articles, writes the quotes, spouts Program verbage and jargon. All the copy is in the same format (somewhat mushy, in my opinion), revealing a clientele that ALL speak the same way. Read contributions to this Fornits forum by parents and kids, and you will see a broad spectrum of style, language, and education. The Source has a single-minded sameness...duh, because a single person writes it!
If one were to read the January 2004 issue, and then the January 2005 issue, they would find the same boiler-plate copy. There is a picture of two (or one) beaming parents and a kid either with a lame forced smile or a dour frown, squeezed between the folks. Often, the picture of the kid is from a younger time, before the uniforms, the raging self-hatred, or the bitterness of having a family exploded apart. There is the requisite article about how "I" (the kid) was going to hell in a handbasket, yadda, yadda. Then there is the single mother whose family was in shambles until she mortgaged/borrowed/defrauded insurance companies to remove her kid and set him to rights. There is the requisite article about the graduate who now works for the Program...honestly, we read each month about a graduate/staffer or escort. And then, with surprising frequency, there is the article about the "one that got away". This would be the kid who is still a shit because, due to his failure to capitulate and graduate, has not benefitted enough from The Program to walk lock-step to his parent's demands. During one period, I surprisingly found articles on three consecutive issues from ONE set of parents, waxing poetic about the Program. They were older, mid-60's I'd guess, and they contributed (at least their portraits) suggesting their lives were made complete by the Program. Imbedded in these successive articles was their kid's first name, but he unfortunately did not contribute his photo. Hhmm...is he a little unhappy, downright evil, or "not fully baked"? And, unfortunately, there is sometimes an article about the kid no longer alive, often by suicide after leaving the Program. Unbelievably, the parents have said, "...yes, but at least he got to have some of the benefits of knowing how much we loved him [sending him off to isolation] before he died" with the implicit thought that he would probably still be alive if he had graduated. GGrrrrr.....
Parents are really silly when they refer disenters to "the XXX 2005 issue" to confirm the wonderfulness of The Program. That's somewhere like believing that we invaded Iraq solely to prevent our own destruction from weapons of mass destruction. Either one must be naive beyond belief, or one must believe blindly to keep the pain of parental failure away. No wonder some parents regret the Internet access to The Source. They are living a fragile lie, and having the rest of the world privy to the ridiculous props such as The Source that keep the lie alive is embarassing, to say the least.
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Spots - you say the same person writes all the articles? Who might that be? The editor from last year is not currently involved. You have a lot of negative comments, but nothing to back it up as fact. Posting the link had a question and it has not be answered.
If this publication is so full of bullshit, then why haven't you cancelled it?
As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing.
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On 2004-12-21 16:50:00, Anonymous wrote
As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing. "
Tell that to Lisa McPherson.
DEATH OF A SCIENTOLOGIST
http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientol ... entologist (http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientology.html#Lisa%20McPherson--Death%20of%20a%20Scientologist)
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>>>"Spots - you say the same person writes all the articles? Who might that be? The editor from last year is not currently involved.
Answer: I'm not talking about one individual person. I'm saying the "tone" of The Source is formulaic, i.e., all the same, as is all jargon, seminar responses, examples of "success" within The Program. IOW, Life According to The Program...no exceptions. Try to think beyond the box here, Anon. I'm talking about The Big Picture, and you're sniping about *which* editor is writing things.
>>>If this publication is so full of bullshit, then why haven't you cancelled it?
Answer: I take each issue and stash it in my very large file of WWASPS things. I have print-offs from Fornits, articles in newspapers, her letters to me, The Source, etc. Maybe sometime in the future, my kid will want to peruse these various items, and will have the education and sensitivity to understand exactly what *bullshit* was being fed to the public, as opposed to the truth as she lived it.
>>>As for John Travolta and Tom Cruise being in Scientology "brainwashing cult," it doesn't seem to be a bad thing. "
Mr. Travolta and Mr. Cruz have their own agenda. I personally don't have an opinion about their Scientology values, because I know absolutely zero-zilch-nada about how these beliefs impact their lives or those of people around them. Do you?
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Spots, You are so right onin your observations of the Source.
Glenda babe once ask that I write an article for the Source about our walk in the pardf in San Francisco back in May 2001.It was a Landre fraud, I mean fundraiser.
Anyway my article was never published.It was adoring enough probably.
The fact about kids committing suicide and how if they had only Graduated it would never have happened was something that worked on me.One of my biggest fears was suicide. The are excellant at creating fear.
Once again I'm impressed Spots with your insightfulness. I wish you had been my friend to help me see the truth when I needed it back in the day when I was a Program cult member and my kid was being assaulted by the wwaspies.
Keep on telling it like it is. Someone may hear the truth.
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Scientology allegedly treats wealthy celebrities very differently from the rank and file.
Timoclea
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Spots wrote: "In that length of time, it has become dreadfully obvious that one person, the editor, creates and produces this magazine...not the many "contributing" students and parents. She tailors the articles, writes the quotes, spouts Program verbage and jargon..."
Spots then writes: " I'm not talking about one individual person..."
Too funny!
Maybe, just maybe the articles have the same tone because they're all families once in crisis and now healing in their own way. That in itself does tend to take on the same "tone." The editor does create and produce the magazine, but doesn't write it. I know for fact that the articles are not written by one person, but in fact, written by each and every person whose name appears on each one.
Can you answer the question originally posed? Where does it appear that these people are in a cult?
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On 2004-12-22 12:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Spots wrote: "In that length of time, it has become dreadfully obvious that one person, the editor, creates and produces this magazine...not the many "contributing" students and parents. She tailors the articles, writes the quotes, spouts Program verbage and jargon..."
Spots then writes: " I'm not talking about one individual person..."
Too funny!
Maybe, just maybe the articles have the same tone because they're all families once in crisis and now healing in their own way. That in itself does tend to take on the same "tone." The editor does create and produce the magazine, but doesn't write it. I know for fact that the articles are not written by one person, but in fact, written by each and every person whose name appears on each one.
Can you answer the question originally posed? Where does it appear that these people are in a cult? "
Some cult-like features of WWASPS (or many of the other non-WWASPS teen behavior mod facilities) are:
1) They charge a great deal of money.
2) They have a definite organizational jargon
3) They strongly encourage members to recruit new members.
4) They promise "salvation" from the fate of being deadorinjail if you "graduate", or if you keep your child there until he/she graduates
5) They require members to surrender physical control over their immediate environment for a period of time and put them through an emotionally intensive experience at which the organization's major content and beliefs are passed on. (seminars, for the parents. facilities, for the kids)
6) While *in theory* they allow that some people may not need their salvation, *in practice* virtually anybody is told they need WWASPS or their kid will be deadorinjail *unless* either the parents don't have the money, or the kid is too violent to be worth the trouble.
7) Group drop outs are vilified---their kid didn't "graduate" so they must have succumbed to "manipulation", and procedures are in place to try to recruit back dropouts (via guarantees)
:cool: Ongoing group participation is encouraged by trying to recruit kids in as staff, or to get kids or parents to continue group participation by providing testimonials for the group.
9) Critics of the group are vilified, to the point that the group actually brought a (losing) lawsuit to try to silence its critics. Critical kids are vilified as liars and manipulators, critical parents are vilified as dupes of their rotten kids.
You may notice that some of these features, like having a specialized jargon, could be reflective of almost any organized group of people. The focus on raising money could be applied to any charity or political campaign or business.
These features aren't supposed to be absolutely definitive of whether a group is or is not a cult. The truth is that different organizations have different degrees of authoritarianism and control, and different degrees of emphasis on recruiting, and different degrees of emphasis on fundraising.
A club that goes on regular fishing or camping trips---like the Boy Scouts----would have the physical control of the member's environment for the days on the trip.
It's not any one feature that's bad, and just because one group is more authoritarian and more pervasive and enveloping throughout the different parts of its members' lives than another doesn't mean *either* group is necessarily bad.
Just like almost any ordinary person you meet shows *some* symptoms of mental illness doesn't mean everyone's crazy. It's not so much a difference of kind, as a difference of degree.
You have to look at the whole picture.
Looking at the entire picture of WWASPS as an organization, and many similar behavior mod facilities, they have enough cultish features at a high enough intensity that any responsible person would be worried about them.
Timoclea
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Timoclea - Interesting twist to what really is, at least from my personal experience. Here's my personal view in response to what you define as cult like:
1) They charge a great deal of money.
1) They offer a service that insurance doesn't pay for, nor state funds, etc., Yes, parents are responsible for the tuition.
2) They have a definite organizational jargon
2) If by "jargon" you mean "languaging", I agree. Instead of using words like "I messed up", they use "so what, now what? or "What can I do differently? " Much of the "jargon" is meant to replace negative language with positive "healing" language.
3) They strongly encourage members to recruit new members.
3) Not really the way it is. Parents that weren't able to find help locally or searched for a long time and kept running into brick walls are more than happy to share what it has meant to them. Giving back, paying it forward, or whatever term you prefer.
4) They promise "salvation" from the fate of being deadorinjail if you "graduate", or if you keep your child there until he/she graduates.
4) no where do they "promise" anything. Completing the program gives a warranty that you can re-admit at no charge if your teen reverts to old behaviors before 18. Graduation doesn't "insure" success. Graduation does say that we've completed something that took a lot of deep, inner work. What we do with it, or not, is our choice, not dictated by anyone else.
5) They require members to surrender physical control over their immediate environment for a period of time and put them through an emotionally intensive experience at which the organization's major content and beliefs are passed on. (seminars, for the parents. facilities, for the kids)
5) yes, just like I did when my kids were in public school, scouts, etc. Adding that the seminars don't tell anyone what to believe. It is an individual choice to take what they learn (choices, accountability, personal values, etc.) and apply it to their daily lives. The only belief many of us share is a belief in ourselves.
6) While *in theory* they allow that some people may not need their salvation, *in practice* virtually anybody is told they need WWASPS or their kid will be deadorinjail *unless* either the parents don't have the money, or the kid is too violent to be worth the trouble.
6) Untrue - normal teen acting out does not warrant admission. High risk behavior, yes, I would recommend "taking a look"at this option. It sounds like we bully parents into admitting their child - funny.
7) Group drop outs are vilified---their kid didn't "graduate" so they must have succumbed to "manipulation", and procedures are in place to try to recruit back dropouts (via guarantees)
7) Many reasons why a student doesn't complete - For me personally, it's their choice and none of my business of the "why's." Blaming the "program" however, isn't being accountable.
:cool: Ongoing group participation is encouraged by trying to recruit kids in as staff, or to get kids or parents to continue group participation by providing testimonials for the group.
:cool: Not too many kids are staff, in fact many that would like to work there are told to get some life experiences, staying clean, sober, going to college, etc., first. And, testimonials are given freely, voluntarily.
9) Critics of the group are vilified, to the point that the group actually brought a (losing) lawsuit to try to silence its critics. Critical kids are vilified as liars and manipulators, critical parents are vilified as dupes of their rotten kids.
9) Wasn't that lawsuit about a group of competitors posting hearsay and downright fabricated statements, and the court said that every poster would have to be sued, not just the competitor? There is no longer a fear of posting untrue statements...
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What, no rebuttals?
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On 2004-12-23 09:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What, no rebuttals? "
Hello, I have a life other than spending 24/7 on Fornits.
On the other----my real complaint with all these places is that the licensing requirements are minimal, there is no safeguard process to prevent inappropriate admissions, there is no ability of the teens to communicate freely with the outside world (including extended family) by uncensored letter, and there are no definied rights of the teen that the facility is required to respect and the respect of which are enforced by authority external to the corporate entity running the facility/facilities.
I don't think the safeguards and limits for residential treatment for teens should be exactly like those for adults, but I *do* think they should be a lot *closer* to the rules governing involuntary commitment of adults than they are now.
I think the replies to my concerns about cult-like features of WWASPS were whitewashing a real problem BUT even if they were 100% true and accurate, there *still* needs to be substantial government oversight put in place to ensure that the teens are receiving quality care.
The big problem with the industry is that whether a particular facility is a bad apple or not, any facility could open up its doors tomorrow and get away with being the bad apple facilities described on Fornits, because there is no meaningful, adequate oversight of these facilities.
*One* of the reasons I suspect the WWASPS advocacy response is a whitewash is that I've talked with a therapist from a non-WWASPS program who, though she didn't mention a particular program by name, says she has often had to open up trauma files on students transferred into her facility from facilities in Utah. That is---her facility has had to treat students for PTSD from the former program after the student transferred in from some program in Utah. She sees the kids coming out of various other programs, and she did *not* have a high opinion of WWASPS.
Now, I didn't agree with everything *she* said, either. For one thing, she was entirely too tolerant of an overly-authoritarian approach to rules for my tastes. But she was, for various reasons, someone I trust to be telling me the truth.
Her account of the condition the kids were in when she got them from places in Utah was a lot more consistent with what the self-identified survivors are saying than with what the WWASPS program advocates are saying.
Regardless--the industry needs oversight. Not just rules on paper, but actual adequately-funded, diligent inspection and enforcement personnel with the power to notify facilities where they're in violation, order compliance, verify compliance, and, if necessary, write citations for violations that can be (and when appropriate, are) translated into fines and lifted operating licenses.
There's a vast difference between rules on paper, and even rules *with teeth* on paper, and actually budgetting the personnel and other overhead costs to make those teeth start chewing out those who need it.
I've seen bureaucracy work well and I've seen it work badly. I've been a bureaucrat, and I've been an activist, and I've been a small business owner.
The problem here is that where rules and laws exist, they aren't adequately implemented and aren't being enforced because nobody in government has been specifically tasked with the enforcement responsibilities, has been specifically allocated budgetted funds for enforcement, has been specifically given a rule system with tools (like violation notification forms, compliance order forms, and the power to issue citations for violations) adequate for enforcement, and nobody in government has been saddled with the recordkeeping requirements (detailed inspection reports, reports to be made available to the public, the media, the legislators, etc. under sunshine laws) to ensure the enforcement actually gets done.
The problem with bureaucracy is you can't just pass a law restricting or prohibiting something and have it be effective. You have to assemble the pieces of a bureaucracy necessary for enforcement, and you have to put those pieces together so that some specific bureacrat with authority over all the bureaucrats down-chain in the enforcement arm *knows* it will be his ass on the line if something bad happens at one of these schools, and it turns out the school was way out of compliance, and it turns out the king bureaucrat wasn't doing his job.
That's the problem with the whole Anson Arnett thing. There is no specific bureaucrat who was responsible for seeing to it that the staffing rules were followed by the facility, and there is no specific bureacrat whose ass is in a sling for not regularly inspecting the facility to ensure their compliance.
It's no wonder when people call the Utah bureaucrats and complain that the bureaucrats blow them off. If child welfare pulls a child from his/her home because the kid's being abused, and places the kid in foster care where the kid gets further abused, or dies, or gets lost in the system----there are particular bureaucrats whose butts are in the hot seat over that screw-up.
They don't have any bureaucratic accountability over the facilities. They can bemoan with the person complaining how lax the rules are----without ever feeling the heat *themselves* for not fixing the problem.
It's the difference between having rules on paper and having rules with teeth.
I know this has seemed like a long digression, but there actually is a point to it.
The biggest reason I'm very, very suspicious of WWASPS is how much work they put into *avoiding* having oversight over them that has actual teeth.
Nobody likes red tape. But at some point squirming away from the red tape becomes less about, "Oh, you hate red tape, too. Don't we all." And becomes more about, "Gee, you're awful intent on avoiding fairly normal, expected red tape for this kind of endeavor. What have you got to hide?"
It *bothers* me that the cattle rancher who grows my steaks has more meaningful, effective oversight than people who run residential treatment facilities for children.
It *bothers* me that animal shelters for cats and dogs have more meaningful, effective oversight than people who run residential treatment facilities for children.
And it bothers the hell out of me that the people who run residential treatment centers for children aren't right out there in front saying, "You know what, there *should* be standards and their *should* be inspections so our clients can know they're getting the services we promised, delivered in a safe and effective manner."
Nobody *likes* to be inspected, but sometimes you just have to be a grown up and understand why it's necessary. I don't *like* going through security to get on a plane---but I do it, or I don't fly.
The biggest single thing that makes me believe the survivors, in general, over the program cheerleaders is the unwillingness of the programs to not only *accept* meaningful oversight, but to affirmatively reach out and *insist* on it, while helping craft it to make sure the oversight is done *well*.
Timoclea
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For me, the most cult like aspect of the program is the blind and absolute trust the programmend insist upon. Trust the Program! Being the answer to all concerns. Reminded me of the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm.
Also, as was mentioned, the vilification of anyone who leaves; or simply has concerns.
The Us and Them attitude - it is Very Cult like.
The Loaded Language; the catch phrases - this is indeed very cult like.
It is a kind of group control. *We* are the Joyious, playful, wonderful, awsome us (all those great things the Programmed say about themselves at the end of every post on the BBS)
*They*, are Bitchen, Moanen, Whiners; or Chattering Pigs; or some such thing. Not nice things to be.
This is Very Cult like. All cults do this.
The very strongly implanted notion that one *Must* remain part of the group, is extreamly cult like. I feel certain that their are families who keep their kids enrolled simply b/c they can not imagian Not being part of the group - the Program. And if they pulled - they'd be cut off.
Very Cult like.
There are Programmed people who cut off relitives; who divorce their spouces; b/c they are "non- suporting" of the Program - and this is encoruaged by the program. Very, Very cult like.
And notice the effect this has for the Program -
Money, Money, Money - MONEY.
Very cult like.
The whole thing is indeed, Very Cult Like.
And Creepy.
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Its interesting how the children in there are held to insanely high 'standards' (as a device to nitpick ANY flaws to torment them) but the orginization holding them to the standards do not hold themselves to them.
A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
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On 2004-12-23 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"For me, the most cult like aspect of the program is the blind and absolute trust the programmend insist upon. Trust the Program! Being the answer to all concerns. Reminded me of the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm.
(Actually, it's Trust the Process...)
Also, as was mentioned, the vilification of anyone who leaves; or simply has concerns.
The Us and Them attitude - it is Very Cult like.
(??? Never got into that us/them thing - that sounds very judgmental to me)
The Loaded Language; the catch phrases - this is indeed very cult like.
It is a kind of group control. *We* are the Joyious, playful, wonderful, awsome us (all those great things the Programmed say about themselves at the end of every post on the BBS)
"They*, are Bitchen, Moanen, Whiners; or Chattering Pigs; or some such thing. Not nice things to be.
(Again, ??? - We are what? I think what you're referring to is an "I AM" statement - such as I am a happy, confident, loving woman." Never saw a "WE" statement.)
The very strongly implanted notion that one *Must* remain part of the group, is extreamly cult like. I feel certain that their are families who keep their kids enrolled simply b/c they can not imagian Not being part of the group - the Program. And if they pulled - they'd be cut off.
(Not worth a response other than this is total bullshit.)
<
There are Programmed people who cut off relitives; who divorce their spouces; b/c they are "non- suporting" of the Program - and this is encoruaged by the program. Very, Very cult like.
(I agree it would be cult like if it were true. The "program" encourages nothing like this, did you read this somewhere?)
And notice the effect this has for the Program -
Money, Money, Money - MONEY.
Very cult like.
The whole thing is indeed, Very Cult Like.
And Creepy.
(What I think is creepy is the statements you think are fact.)
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Tinoclea - I read you believe there should be government oversight. I don't know enough about what that would mean. I see that government oversight lacks the manpower in what it is currently doing as far as prisons, CPS, human services, lots of red tape, lots of ineffective treatments, care, etc.
Is there government oversight for therapists, psychiatrists, counselors, physicians, etc., in private practice? I prefer to see a naturopath, and other alternative treatment options. Not someone whose "treatment" is dictated by drug companies.
Stating this would be your choice doesn't give me much info to respond to since my experience with government oversight hasn't been rosey. I really am interested in how you see this as a working outcome. I'm neither for nor against it at this point.
I agree that there are many programs popping up everywhere and some sort of regulation should be in place.
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On 2004-12-23 14:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Tinoclea - I read you believe there should be government oversight. I don't know enough about what that would mean. I see that government oversight lacks the manpower in what it is currently doing as far as prisons, CPS, human services, lots of red tape, lots of ineffective treatments, care, etc.
Is there government oversight for therapists, psychiatrists, counselors, physicians, etc., in private practice? I prefer to see a naturopath, and other alternative treatment options. Not someone whose "treatment" is dictated by drug companies.
Stating this would be your choice doesn't give me much info to respond to since my experience with government oversight hasn't been rosey. I really am interested in how you see this as a working outcome. I'm neither for nor against it at this point.
I agree that there are many programs popping up everywhere and some sort of regulation should be in place. "
Well, I'm still kicking around the pros and cons of the various kinds and forms of regulation that are possible. If I had a good proposal yet, I already would have taken it to my elected reps.
Psychiatrists are overseen by the medical licensing system, since they're medical doctors, and have to be licensed to practice medicine.
Psychologists are also overseen by a licensing board.
Anyone can call themselves a counselor or a therapist---I could hand out a shingle right now---or you could. That's why I don't encourage people to go to mental health treatment people who don't have to be licensed---you never know what you're getting.
You can find out your doctor's relationships or lack thereof with the drug companies usually just by asking. Most doctors are quite open about their treatment philosophies. You can also tell by looking and seeing if *everything* in your doctor's office has little drug company ads all over it, or just a few things. (I used to be a medical receptionist---my boss got a few little notepads and pens and stuff, and samples, from drug companies, but not enough to compromise his integrity and get him to prescribe differently.)
You want to find out your doctor's relationship to drug companies? When he/she prescribes something, ask if there's a generic available---or if you can have something that can be prescribed in generic---and see how he/she reacts. Sometimes the doctor will give valid reasons why this particular drug is better than an older one, or why the generic isn't as suitable. You're more looking for whether the doctor is uncomfortable with the whole idea of generics---he may get kickbacks for prescribing name-brand.
A doctor who's reasonable about generics, on the other hand, is *highly* unlikely to be in the pocket of drug companies.
Also look for physicians who are "Board Certified"---it makes it much more likely that they'll be competent.
The problem I have with some advocates of alternative medicines is I'm a herbalist---so I'm familiar with some of the side effects and drug interactions various herbs can have, and what things they're good at helping, and what things they're not so good at, and how people can really screw themselves up by presuming that just because an herb is "natural" it won't hurt them if they take it wrong.
I still remember all the yuppies that slagged their livers taking comfrey internally---daily!
One of the reasons I have so much (relative) faith in licensed physicians is because I have so *little* faith in people's do-it-yourself alternative medicine after seeing how badly some people have managed to screw themselves up with a casual attitude to things with major potential side effects that they just shrug off and don't know how to watch for at all.
A person who practices medicine on himself has a fool for a patient.
That is *not* to say that alternative medicine can't be very effective for some things, when done by a *competent* practitioner. The trick is ensuring that you *are* under the care of a competent practitioner.
On the licensing issue---yeah, it's going to take money. Right now what I'm kicking around is how to get the most bang for the bucks.
Timoclea
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(What I think is creepy is the statements you think are fact.)
I been there Pal. I know its a fact. I find it creepy the way you can't see it; or can't admit it.
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Timoclea-
I do agree with what you are saying about physicians, therapists, etc. There's good and bad.
I chose a naturapath, very good, in fact, because I was given synthetic hormones for menopause - totally drug company driven treatment. Ever heard of bio-identical hormones? A healthier and safer alternative. This is truly a "success story" for me.
I would see an MD or DO if I felt their treatment would be a better alternative. It is in some instances.
In other words, I'm not closed to alternative treatments, when I see that the mainstream isn't working for me.
I've done my homework and will continue to do my homework when it comes to my health and that of my children. I don't self-treat - I agree that's a stupid and dangerous thing.
My experience of psychiatrists, overseen or not, is that parents looking for a quick fix for their ADD child, are prescribed drugs that I don't and can't stand behind. It doesn't fix anything except for the parent or the school teachers. It gives an illusion that the kids are doing better, but doesn't address the root behaviors that can be changed with behavior modification, positive support and diet. Most ADD'ers don't need therapy, in my opinion, as one who knows first hand with myself. They need to know they aren't broken and to believe they are gifted and intelligent people that just don't learn or live the same way as non ADD'ers. THey don't need to learn that medication is okay or the answer to the whole picture.
Bi-polar is a different story. Without the treatment to control the chemical imbalance, life can be very, very painful. My mother in law was bi-polar (she is not longer with us.) She had a master's degree in education and was one of the most intelligent and loving women I have ever known. When her husband died she quit taking her meds and was hospitalized. This happened 3 times before she died. She no longer had someone to make sure she took her meds. Would having had some kind of behavior modification (personal accountability) have changed that choice to go off the meds? What makes one bi-polar know they need the meds and others decide they don't need them anymore? I've seen (my sister-in-law) receive intensive behavior modification and stay on her meds and live a relatively successful and happy life. She is one who says "so what, now what?"
What I'm saying is that a psychiatrist or therapist is not a one size fits all. There are alternatives to those treatments that work,and are not regulated or licensed and don't need to be. Not everyone will agree with this, and that's okay. What it takes is educating yourself in the alternatives to see if it's a good fit for you. I do look for certification and/or results and wouldn't choose something I felt harmful or experimental (not to be confused with experiential) in any way.
I don't want the government to dicate to me or my family what my choices are. The insurance companies already do that in the way of health care. Many State governments already dicate what choices a parent can make for their child making dangerous behaviors.
Who would "regulate" the number of teen boarding schools/residential treatment centers? I'm for regulation, but not by the government. Rock and a hard place...
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One reason why I have little faith, or extreme skepticism, when it comes to medical professionals.
http://www.drugintel.com/pharma/iatroge ... _death.htm (http://www.drugintel.com/pharma/iatrogenic_causes_of_death.htm)
The number of deaths each year due to non-error adverse reactions to medications adverse reactions is greater than the number of deaths of American military personnel in the entire Viet Nam war.
Deaths/Yr and Cause
7,000 Medication Errors in Hospitals
12,000 Unnecessary Surgery
20,000 Medical Errors in Hospitals (excluding Medication Errors)
106,000 Non-error, Adverse Reactions to Medications aka Drug Adverse Events
Total: 145,000
I would bet money that many of those people would still be alive and would have benefited from a dietary and/or lifestyle change and possibly some herbs and/or supplements.
48 Times more people killed ANNUALLY than were killed on 911, and these mad scientists are still heralded as heroes. Puey. They have been trained in a flawed system- crisis medicine. They do the best they can... but when you are constantly at WAR with nature (vs working with nature) there will always be casualties. The sad thing is that they have a monopoly. The majority of people don't know there are options and many who do are terrorized by fear mongering such as you have provided Tim.
Where are the stats on deaths due to people treating themselves with alternatives?
Many are treated... few are healed:
http://www.drugintel.com/pharma/many_are_treated.htm (http://www.drugintel.com/pharma/many_are_treated.htm)
Allen Roses, worldwide vice-president of genetics at GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), said fewer than half of the patients prescribed some of the most expensive drugs actually derived any benefit from them.
http://www.garynull.com/documents/iatro ... icine2.htm (http://www.garynull.com/documents/iatrogenic/deathbymedicine/deathbymedicine2.htm)
The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million.1 Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics.2, 2a The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million.3 The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million.4 The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.5
More: http://www.google.com/search?q=iatrogen ... &hl=en&lr= (http://www.google.com/search?q=iatrogenic+death+&hl=en&lr=)
Pay attention to this one fact:
"Tens of millions of unecessary antibiotics"
What are the consequences of that??? Super bugs that are resistant to drugs. Do you know about these lovely critters? Psuedomonas. Echo 11. Parvo. CMV. To name a few. Doctors and drug companies are killing us. Literally.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=pseudomonas (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=pseudomonas)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... 1%22+virus (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22echo+11%22+virus)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... 1%22+virus (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22echo+11%22+virus)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=cmv+virus (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=cmv+virus)
One's best (only) defense is a good offense... a healthy immune system. Doctors don't have a clue as to how to go about achieving that.
Medical professionals are not knights in shining armour by any stretch of the imagination.
My advice to friends is get a dx. Explore the alternatives. Try alternatives if your condition is not life-threatening. Seek a doctors assistance when all else fails... for crises... what they are trained for... when it doesn't matter if the treatment is as deadly as the disease/illness.
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When will they ever learn... when will they evvvvvvver learn.
It's been quite a few years since posting on this site, not since 2001 to be exact. Those were the pre-wilderness and TBS days.
As things are now, our daughter Mallorie is 19 and we're thankful she's alive. But since graduating high school last June, she's essentially done nothing. A few half-hearted part time jobs, otherwise nothing. By her own admission, she's not motivated.
As we see it, there are only three options: 1) allow the situation to continue indefinitely (that's unacceptable) 2) have her get serious help (she rejected that offer) or 3) time to cut strings, stop enabling and with limited support, out she goes. That's what we've concluded as the only viable thing to do and we've told her as much.
Has anyone faced these circumstances? Was there any other option we may have overlooked?
Thanks
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=000912 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000912)
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Bump and request this become stickied
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You definitely don't want to force psychiatric treatment on someone.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Do you have any idea where this post is copied from?
Woah, what the hell? Try Another Castle, did you delete that post right after you made it?
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Yeah. I was like. d'oh. That will teach me not to read a whole thread. I'm a notorious skimmer. Probably a bad idea in this forum.